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East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: wrongway on August 06, 2009, 03:49:26 PM

Title: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 06, 2009, 03:49:26 PM
how much ethanol can you have mixed with gas and still be in the gas class ? looks like all the oxygenated fuels have ethanol or methanol in them .  It looks like XXX racing fuel has 50% or so.

Roy
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Cajun Kid on August 06, 2009, 09:22:19 PM
YOU can NOT mix your own gas for gas class.. you must BUY event gas,, they have several flavors at the track and mark and seal your tank,, if you run fuel class you can run whatever mix you want....

Charles
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 06, 2009, 10:24:35 PM
YOU can NOT mix your own gas for gas class.. you must BUY event gas,, they have several flavors at the track and mark and seal your tank,, if you run fuel class you can run whatever mix you want....

Charles

you can bring a sealed container and Mike will fill and seal your tank. The question is how much ethanol can the gas have in it ? some race fuels have 50% or more ethanol to oxygenate them. 100% ethanol is definitely considered to be fuel , but they sell 10% ethanol mix in the 100 octane Rockett, and other brands have more. So what is legal ? 10% ,20 % , 50 % ,85% ???? 

the rules are not clear ....


Roy
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Cajun Kid on August 06, 2009, 10:32:44 PM
Roy, I may have read your question wrong?  Thought you asked about "mixing your own fuel"

Yes, many fuels do have ethanol...  and I do not know what % is legal in the gas class..

A logical deduction would be the highest % of methanol legal for gas class at any given event would be equal to the highest % used in the on site event gas available at the track...

Then if that is so and a person decided to bring there own sealed can of gas,, I would guess the supplier of that gas would have to include a data sheet showing the details or % or ethanol and oxy ?

This is all just my opinion and logic,,, and neither are "official" in any capacity..

I personally would just use what they have..

Sorry for any confussion,,,

Charles

Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Dr Goggles on August 06, 2009, 11:19:31 PM
This is from a Precision Fuel Testing Systems website at

 http://www.ridgenet.net/~hideseng/new_page_1.htm

I thought it would be useful for understanding as the usual definition of "gasoline" mentions the dielectric constant......


Q: What is the definition of Dielectric Constant?

A: The dielectric constant (DC) of a substance is a measure of the relative effectiveness of that substance as an electrical insulator.  The perfect electrical insulator is a vacuum, which has a DC of 1.00000.  By comparison, air has a DC of 1.00059, almost the same as a vacuum, and water has a DC value of 78.2.  A dielectric meter measures the relative DC of gasoline by measuring the difference in capacitance of the probe between a standard (usually cyclohexane, with true DC value of 2.025) and the gasoline sample. 

Q: Why is measurement of this characteristic an effective test for gasoline?

A: Gasoline as refined is a mixture of pure hydrocarbons.  A unique physical property of a pure hydrocarbon fluid is that its DC is virtually the lowest of any liquid. The addition of power enhancing additives to gasoline, such as some oxygen and nitrogen bearing compounds, cause gasoline's DC to rise dramatically. A gasoline dielectric tester thus provides a simple, reliable way of determining whether a competitor's fuel has been adulterated.
Q:  Where can I learn more about gasoline?

A:  Go to: www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/

Q: Is there a list of typical dielectric values for various brands of gasoline?

A: Yes. PFTS maintains an extensive database of racing gasoline dye colors and DC values.  Click here to see the Gas DC List.

Q: How does a gasoline dielectric tester work?

A: It measures the difference between the DC of a gasoline sample and that of a reference hydrocarbon (cyclohexane, used to set zero on the meter). The measurement is expressed as a numeric +/- value on the digital display of the meter. This value is then compared to the PFTS Gas DC List and/or the rules of the sanctioning body to determine the legality of the fuel sample.  Click here to see the FT-K01 Fuel Tester.

Q:  Can you detect the presence of tetraethyl lead (TEL) in gasoline with a dielectric tester.

A:  No.  There are no field dielectric testers sensitive enough to detect the presence of TEL in unleaded gasoline.  TEL typically is blended in a volume of about four grams/gallon or 0.01% by volume in most racing gasoline, and less in aviation gasoline (Av Gas).  Even if it could be detected, in that minute volume it would be impossible to differentiate it from any other normal hydrocarbon component. 

Q:  Can you measure the octane of a gasoline sample with a dielectric tester?

A:  No.  The octane level of a gasoline sample can only be accurately measured in the laboratory with a special variable compression single cylinder engine designed specifically for that purpose. However, there are several companies using near-IR technology for octane number estimation.  These devices look at about 27% of the hydrocarbons, then calculate an octane number based on the HC content and the octane numbers of the pure components that are stored in device memory.  Claimed accuracy is equal to an octane engine, but there are serious limitations with this analysis method.  Near-IR analyzers are fairly accurate for unleaded gasolines in the 86 to 92 octane range, marginal above that, and definitely will not provide any accuracy for a gasoline that contains TEL.  They give an approximate octane number of the gasoline without taking the TEL into account, but do not measure the TEL content, therefore are generally ineffective for leaded gasoline.   Click here to go to the Zeltex, Inc. website.

Q:  Can a dielectric tester measure the 'quality' of a gasoline? (Is this good gas or bad gas?)

A:  No.  The best that a gasoline dielectric meter can do is provide a measurement which can be compared to a standard.  The PFTS Gasoline DC List is one such standard, and when a specific brand/blend of gasoline is compared to the value published in the PFTS Gasoline DC List, one can determine only that the gas sample is the 'same' or 'different'.  The rules of some motorsport associations specify a small range +/- the published value in the Gas DC List to determine legality of a sample, while others specify a maximum dielectric value for all gasoline used in competition , and if a competitor's gasoline exceeds the rule specification, his gas would be considered to be illegal.  Dielectric testers can also be useful in determining if there is a difference between gasoline drums, which can be valuable to the competitor in determining if his gasoline has 'aged' (lost some of the more volatile components, or oxidized) or may be  defective.  This can help avoid poor performance on the track and the possibility of expensive engine damage.

Q:  Can a dielectric tester measure the 'power' in a gasoline?

A:  No.  There is no correlation between the DC value of a particular gasoline and its specific energy.

Q:  Does temperature affect the relative dielectric value of gasoline?

A:  Extensive testing by NHRA indicates that the relative DC of gasoline is very sensitive to temperature and some gasolines are also sensitive to exposure (aging) at elevated temperatures for moderate to long periods of time.  Accurate relative DC measurements can only be made if the temperature of the test sample is within +/- 5o F of the temperature of the calibration (cyclohexane) sample.  Fuel samples above 90o F must be chilled below that temperature to obtain a stable reading.

Q:  What other effective tests are there for gasoline?

A: There are several other effective tests to ascertain that the gasoline used by a competitor has not been tainted.  Germane Engineering manufactures the Reagent A and D Spot Test chemicals that are effective in identifying several common power additives including propylene oxide, alcohol, masking agents, and paradioxane.  Accurate measurement of the density/specific gravity of gasoline is also very effective, although this is most applicable to situations where a racing association has established a 'specified gasoline rule', or at least a short list of 'approved gasolines'.  Virtually any chemical when mixed with gasoline will either increase or decrease the density/specific gravity of the sample tested from that of unadulterated gasoline.  Precise measurement of the density/specific gravity as allowed by the PFTS Spec. Gasoline Certification Kit will reveal the presence of such additives.  When coupled with the use of a good gasoline dielectric meter or the Germane Engineering Spot Tests, the combination of tests will provide an effective cross-verification of purity. Click here to see Gasoline Kits.

Q:  Why are two tests better than only one?

A: It is theoretically possible to 'fool' any one of these tests through creative chemistry.  It becomes several orders of magnitude more difficult to invent a blend of additives that mirror both the dielectric value, the density/specific gravity, and the dye color of the original gasoline, and still have a gasoline the produces more power than the original unaltered gasoline.

Q: Has the effectiveness of PFTS gasoline certification systems been verified?

A: Yes. One of the major motorsport sanctioning bodies has verified the effectiveness of PFTS fuel certification systems by retaining a mobile test lab utilizing a gas chromatography instrument to analyze fuel samples at their national events. This instrument is so sensitive that it is capable of detecting fuel additives in the low parts per million range. We are pleased to report that our PFTS systems were able to detect every instance of fuel tampering that was detected by the gas chromatography instrument costing more than $20,000.00 and operated by a graduate chemist.

Q: Can PFTS provide assistance in revising racing association gasoline rules?

A: Yes. PFTS can provide sample rule specifications that can be adapted to the specific needs of any racing association.

Q: Is there any one step that a motorsport association can do that will simplify the fuel certification process?

A: Yes, implement a specified gasoline rule.  Having to deal with only one brand and blend of gasoline means that fuel inspectors  develop an absolute familiarity with the specific characteristics of that fuel, and can use a system such as the FT-K01 Fuel Tester and PFTS Spec. Gasoline Certification Kit to effectively certify the legality of gasoline used in competition.

Q: What is the best way to extract a fuel sample from a race car for the fuel certification process?

A: PFTS recommends that competitors be required to install a valve in a fuel line so that the fuel inspector can be assured that the sample actually comes from the fuel delivery system.  An excellent valve, created specifically for this purpose and which allows the fuel inspector to remove a fuel sample without tools or removing a fuel line or carburetor bowl screw, is now available from PFTS.  Click here to go to Precision Fuel Sampling Valve page.

Q: Where can I obtain Cyclohexane and Germane Spot Test chemicals?

A: Information on sources for these chemicals is shown on the Supplies page of this website.  Click here to go to Supplies page.
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 07, 2009, 01:43:45 AM
Oregon gasoline has ethanol in it.  The legal minimum is 10 percent but sometimes it has more.  It has damaged my motorcycle fuel system components and it has caused all sorts of expensive trouble and inconvenience, such as causing gaskets to swell and eating away plastic floats.  The ethanol blend lowers performance and reduces gas mileage.  Wonderful stuff.

Make sure that your fuel system can handle the fuel.  One bad problem I have on my Yamaha is that it etches the plastic float.  Small float particles are sucked into the main jet when running at full throttle.  The jet clogs and forward progress stops.  I have had no problems on the Triumph.           
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 15, 2009, 06:53:01 PM
so I am assuming that if mr9 is legal , then XXX 118 is legal , so that would mean e85 IS LEGAL in the gas class ?

or should we pick up the list of accepted fuels from the AMA ?
 or just move the oxy fuels into the fuel class ?

Roy

Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Peter Jack on August 15, 2009, 07:19:53 PM
You're posting in the ECTA area. They go by their rules, not AMA. If the rules say you use only the approved gasoline from the event supplier then you can't use your own mixture and call it gasoline. Read the rules. They're pretty clear and established. Making up your own rules to run the way you want to run means you run time only.

Pete
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 15, 2009, 09:00:00 PM
i can bring any sealed container and the fuel guy will put it in and seal the tank.   I am just stating that some racing gas has more ethanol or methanol ...  more than 50 %...  xxx claims 19% oxygen. most fuel with 10% ethanol /methanol has 2.7% oxygen.


Roy
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Peter Jack on August 15, 2009, 09:07:45 PM
The other thing to remember is that some racing gas won't pass as gas no matter what it's called under the rules of some of the organizations.

Pete
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 15, 2009, 09:28:38 PM
that is the point I am trying to make ,,, if I bring E85 , it will be called Fuel , but if i bring XXX, I can  go in the gas class. I think the rules need to modified to either allow E85 in gas ,or not allow any gas with ethanol .


Roy


Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Cajun Kid on August 16, 2009, 04:12:32 PM
I understand
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Top Secret Z on August 17, 2009, 04:36:17 PM
that is the point I am trying to make ,,, if I bring E85 , it will be called Fuel , but if i bring XXX, I can  go in the gas class. I think the rules need to modified to either allow E85 in gas ,or not allow any gas with ethanol .


Roy




HERE-HERE!!!!
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: sabat on August 17, 2009, 04:59:16 PM
Maybe the easiest thing is to only allow event fuel. No bringing your own. Then it's a level playing field.
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Stan Back on August 17, 2009, 05:18:58 PM
By "fuel", I'm hoping you mean for gasoline only.

Fuel classes usually include nitreous, nitro, alcohol and more -- and by using one "fuel", it would severly limit many competitors.

Stan
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Warp12 on August 17, 2009, 06:05:51 PM
how much ethanol can you have mixed with gas and still be in the gas class ? looks like all the oxygenated fuels have ethanol or methanol in them .  It looks like XXX racing fuel has 50% or so.

Roy

Roy, where can I get the information on the exact amount of ethanol in XXX race fuels? Thanks.

Shane
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: sabat on August 17, 2009, 06:23:45 PM
By "fuel", I'm hoping you mean for gasoline only.

Fuel classes usually include nitreous, nitro, alcohol and more -- and by using one "fuel", it would severly limit many competitors.

Stan

Yes, I meant event GAS.
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: t russell on August 17, 2009, 08:34:31 PM
Gas class must use track fuel.Fuel bring your own,nitro,alky,niterous,etc.E85 not sold at track there for fuel until Keith/Joe say other wise.
that simple.
terry
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Stan Back on August 17, 2009, 09:59:28 PM
Hey -- even I understand it!

Stan
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 18, 2009, 12:58:24 AM
These questions are a bit off topic, but it is important for us who run "from the pump" gas/ethanol blends in the engines we race when we are not racing.  Driving to work, shopping, etc.

It seems there is a lot of inconsistency between tankfuls.  Most are OK but occasionally some are bad.  The bad gas does not ping like the cheap gas of old.  Instead, the idle is rough and power is down.  We poured some gas from a particularly bad tank on the driveway and tossed a match on it.  It barely burned.  What makes this stuff so lousy?

Common wisdom around here is that ethanol blends deteriorate quickly during storage.  They say "Buy regular.  Its fresher because they sell it quicker."  Is this right?

Most Oregon towns have an ARCO, Union 76, Shell, or Chevron station.  Does one of these companies have a good quality control program so the gas they sell is consistent from load to load?

I used to carry some octane booster.  If I got a bad tank of gas I would put some in to stop the pinging.  Now I need some sort of booster to make the gas burn more energetically.  Is there such a thing?

Any help on this subject would be great.   

 
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: salt27 on August 18, 2009, 01:23:23 AM
WobblyWalrus,
I have nonethanol premium pumped in cans and then only use it in my off road vehicles per law. :wink:
As I under stand it, Oregon has revamped the 10% ethenol law to not include premium.
I don't know when that goes into effect, but soon lets hope.

Don
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 18, 2009, 10:40:50 AM
how much ethanol can you have mixed with gas and still be in the gas class ? looks like all the oxygenated fuels have ethanol or methanol in them .  It looks like XXX racing fuel has 50% or so.

Roy

Roy, where can I get the information on the exact amount of ethanol in XXX race fuels? Thanks.

Shane


you  can calculate it based on oxygen content , or if you have a sample , you can run a simple test by adding water and seeing how much gasoline there is when the alcohol seperates out. or buy a cheap kit with a dye for testing.

ethanol is 34% oxygen , xxx is 19%.. so maybe 55% ?

http://www.xxxracingfuel.com/?page_id=12 (http://www.xxxracingfuel.com/?page_id=12)

Roy

Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: goingfaster5 on August 18, 2009, 11:17:08 AM
They say "Buy regular.  Its fresher because they sell it quicker."  Is this right?
 

I spend a lot of time around '70s motorcycles, especially air-cooled BMWs. The higher compression version are very sensitive to bad gas. With the cylinder heads hanging out in the air like they do, it is really easy to hear what is going on in there.

We don't buy premium in our neighborhood or around the shop which are not in great neighborhoods, it is always stale.  We buy nothing higher than mid-grade.  Near the interstate, in "better" neighborhoods the premium seems to be fine.

Eric

Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 18, 2009, 12:40:48 PM
Gas class must use track fuel.Fuel bring your own,nitro,alky,niterous,etc.E85 not sold at track there for fuel until Keith/Joe say other wise.
that simple.
terry

Is that a new rule ? it wasnt that way for the last couple of years... bring a sealed container and pay the gas guy 20 bucks. He fills the tank and seals it.

Roy
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: t russell on August 18, 2009, 09:09:01 PM
[[/quote]

Is that a new rule ? it wasnt that way for the last couple of years... bring a sealed container and pay the gas guy 20 bucks. He fills the tank and seals it.

Roy
[/quote]
That is correct Per Joe/Keith.
The do allow that.
terry
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 18, 2009, 09:53:49 PM

Quote
Is that a new rule ? it wasnt that way for the last couple of years... bring a sealed container and pay the gas guy 20 bucks. He fills the tank and seals it.

Roy
That is correct Per Joe/Keith.
The do allow that.
terry

so back to what i was saying ,,,If I pay enough money , i can get a sealed  container that is more than 50% ETHANOL and run in a gas class ?

doesnt sount right , but i can afford a 5 gal pail of XXX.

Roy
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Dynoroom on August 18, 2009, 10:52:17 PM
Ya know, I keep coming back to this thread. I know it's an ECTA issue. What ever Keith & Joe say is fine by me BUT....
As far as I'm concerned (and my opnion means nothing) ANY ethnol in the gasoline puts you in fuel.... Period! To bad that it's "pump gas". It's not gasoline like the guy before you ran. If that's how you want to get a record go for it.

Again, this is JMO. No hard feelings if I just "don't get it".
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Peter Jack on August 18, 2009, 11:14:16 PM
I think we've got a problem with a guy who just wants to make his own rules. Simply FOLLOW THE RULE BOOK. Quit trying to interpret it to what you want.

Pete
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 18, 2009, 11:23:16 PM
Ya know, I keep coming back to this thread. I know it's an ECTA issue. What ever Keith & Joe say is fine by me BUT....
As far as I'm concerned (and my opnion means nothing) ANY ethnol in the gasoline puts you in fuel.... Period! To bad that it's "pump gas". It's not gasoline like the guy before you ran. If that's how you want to get a record go for it.

Again, this is JMO. No hard feelings if I just "don't get it".


It is not just xxx fuel , MR9 and others have performance gains with all kinds of additives. Some other organizations have banned these racing fuels and it is a moving target. As soon  as they ban a fuel , there are others that replace it and meet the regulations.  I WOULD LIKE TO SEE some ruling on gasoline/fuels .... and I agree that oxy fuels should be in a fuel class. But the current rules are real loose , and $15- $20 racing fuels are making more power , but maybe more fuel than gasoline.


Roy
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Dynoroom on August 19, 2009, 12:30:17 AM
Ya know, I keep coming back to this thread. I know it's an ECTA issue. What ever Keith & Joe say is fine by me BUT....
As far as I'm concerned (and my opnion means nothing) ANY ethnol in the gasoline puts you in fuel.... Period! To bad that it's "pump gas". It's not gasoline like the guy before you ran. If that's how you want to get a record go for it.

Again, this is JMO. No hard feelings if I just "don't get it".


It is not just xxx fuel , MR9 and others have performance gains with all kinds of additives. Some other organizations have banned these racing fuels and it is a moving target. As soon  as they ban a fuel , there are others that replace it and meet the regulations.  I WOULD LIKE TO SEE some ruling on gasoline/fuels .... and I agree that oxy fuels should be in a fuel class. But the current rules are real loose , and $15- $20 racing fuels are making more power , but maybe more fuel than gasoline.
Roy

The ecta uses the scta rule book to my understanding. If this is so you are fighting a losing battle. The dielectric content is not the only answer. The fuel must match what is on site for the competators to use. If your rules allow you to bring in a "fuel" to run in gas class I only see problems. I understand you have found a loop hole but you know what the rule means or this thread would not have gotten this long.
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 19, 2009, 12:51:31 AM
The gas classes are where most people start racing.  Folks should not have to mix or bring their own fuel to be competitive.

Does E85 give a racer an advantage? 
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wrongway on August 19, 2009, 09:45:48 AM
The gas classes are where most people start racing.  Folks should not have to mix or bring their own fuel to be competitive.

Does E85 give a racer an advantage? 

All of the racing fuels I mentioned give some increase in performance. MR9 claims 8% more power than any non-oxygenated fuel. It usually requires retuning the fuel system. There is a reason other racing groups ban them :-) I am not the problem -- at least not yet. I cannot see spending 15- 30 bucks a gallon for the power gains , but if that is what other are running , i dont see how i can avoid it.

Roy
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Cajun Kid on August 19, 2009, 10:05:32 AM
Not sure where this is headed... My take is that if you run in the "GAS" class... then you buy the "Event gas" from the on site vendor... That way the playing field is level for all the "gas class" entrants for that meet.  Most of the time the gas vendor has 3 or 4  types of gas to choose from.

3 leaded and 1 unleaded.

Charles
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: DahMurf on August 19, 2009, 10:59:09 AM
Charles,
It is allowable to bring a sealed can of another brand of race GAS to, for a fee, be administered by our gas vendor. My understanding is that the "grade" of gas is to be comperable to what the current vendor is offering as legal. We've run MR9 & C16 and brought our sealed cans. Our vendor offers a similar grade of gas in regards to octane. The benefit to us is that we can obtain the VP gas and tune with it in house & then be guaranteed to have the same to run with. The two vendors offer similar but not exactly the same gas. I'm not sure on the octane's and other specifics but it's not like the vendor only offers 87 octane & we're bringing 110. Another strange benefit to this is that a stock bike like mine runs much better on lower octane and most of the vendors don't supply the lower street/pump gas octane. If we couldn't bring our own the higher octane would put us at a disadvantage. I've taken it for granted that our vendor is knowledgable and wouldn't allow a Fuel like sealed container to be used as gas if it was beyond what he brings. I'm not sure that I've seen anyone bring anything beyond the standard VP fuels that are the norm.

I suppose one could discuss with the vendor how he administers things at the next meet if they're truly worried. So far I haven't seen anyone running away with gas records up to or beyond what the fuel ones are so no cause for great alarm!

BTW, if anyone is not happy with the rules or how they're administered the proper thing to do is submit a rule change or volunteer to oversee/administer the fueling and/or bring along the tools & start checking gas in impound. ;)

If you know somebody's not legal then do the right thing and tell the race director of file a formal protest! It's not hard to do and so far every time I've pointed out a discrepency it's always been an innocent misunderstanding of the rules and has been quickly and politely resolved!  8-)
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: jb2 on August 19, 2009, 11:19:47 AM
Deb,
Sounds like you are bringing "gas" to be put into a "gas" class.  bringing E85 or 50%ethanol in a sealed can would be brining "fuel" to be sealed for a "gas" class.  Quotes are because some people need a better definition than "comparable to what the current vendor is offering".  E85 is a big HP advantage.

I am with Dyno, I just don't get it.  Bring sealed "gas" to run in gas, not "fuel".

Jim
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Stan Back on August 19, 2009, 11:28:14 AM
Seems hard to beat this horse to death when he keeps galloping around.

Stan
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Dynoroom on August 19, 2009, 12:16:06 PM
Seems hard to beat this horse to death when he keeps galloping around.

Stan

Stan, them folks back there sure are different..... Our rules run their way!

Take it easy, It was tongue in cheek. If that's how the ECTA does it it's okay buy me.  :cheers:
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Warp12 on August 19, 2009, 12:33:44 PM
Oh, nevermind.... :-D
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Cajun Kid on August 19, 2009, 12:41:33 PM
I understand Deb very well and agree.

Also agree that some motoe do better on lower octane than others.

My E motor needs  110 or higher,,, my C motor runs OK on the 110, but prefers the 100

and for some reason the hotter the day the better it likes the 100...I am not a chemist, and have no idea why,, I just drive... 

Charles
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: relaxedfit on August 19, 2009, 01:09:41 PM
Lower octane huh? so that's my problem! Maybe I'll try kerosene next time.
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 21, 2009, 01:29:09 AM
Thanks for the advice about buying ethanol gas at gas stations near the freeway in better neighborhoods.  During the last few days I talked to some locals who are familiar with ethanol gas and they gave me a lot of advice.  I can post it if anyone is interested.
 
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on August 21, 2009, 04:05:59 PM
Lots of info about fuel
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2308.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2308.0.html)

The only way to provide a level playing field is for the event organizer to provide event gas.

If the competitor brings his own "gas" then the fun starts. E85? I'll take it any day. That forces the event organizer to check dielectric constant and that is time consuming and expensive. If they don't check DC then start injecting nitromethane into the "sealed can".

Octane is an indicator of anti-knock ability and has nothing to do with power. The amount of heat a given amount of fuel produces is the power criteria.

Adding oxygen to the fuel has nothing to do with the fuel, is just allows more oxygen into the engine, and more power.

If you look at the ERC web site they tell you the amount of heat the fuel produces (Heat Release per unit weight (bomb calorimeter)) nobody else gives you that info, so trying to determine horsepower from no information from other providers is impossible.

Pump gas? There is no standard. The gas you get from different locations of the same brand differ. The gas you get from the same station this week isn't the same as next week.
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: hotrod on August 21, 2009, 04:41:52 PM
Quote
Does E85 give a racer an advantage?

Yes it does, in almost all cases. Like all alcohol fuels it allows more fuel to be burned, hence more power.

Most internal combustion engines are air limited. By that I mean their ultimate limit to power production is the amount of air you can stuff in the cylinder.
Once you burn up that air, you cannot make any more power. Alcohol fuels like Methanol , and E85 being highly oxygenated have lower oxygen demand and generally wider flammability limits than gasoline. You can efficiently burn a very rich E85 fuel mixture, that if you tried the same relative mixture (lambda) on gasoline the engine would hardly run. With no modifications engines typically can make about 5% more power just by changing to E85. If they are specially built to take advantage of its high fuel octane and high cooling power (high compression ratio and or boosted) 10% or more increase in power over comparable gasoline is typical.

E85 also raises the engines thermal limits due to its high evaporative cooling effect. At power levels that would melt parts or cook a gasoline engine E85 works well. Some racers converting to E85 actually have difficulty getting enough engine heat for efficient operation and have to go back to using thermostats or a warmer thermostat to get best engine operation.

E85 sometimes does not increases peak power significantly but it raises the entire power curve, and broadens the ability of the engine to pull under load because of its burn characteristics. This sometimes means an engine that only gained a couple horsepower peak power runs noticeably faster times on the track. Most drag racers that make the conversion see ET drops of a tenth or more.

All that said, as posted above in the land speed environments E85 would be considered fuel, and if your going to be running fuel class you will be competing against folks running both methanol or nitromethane. E85 still has some advantages even though it has slightly lower power potential to methanol it starts better, requires less maintenance, and is less toxic not to mention being easy to find in many parts of the country.

It is a great fuel for folks who want a high performance daily driver, and usually produces more power than the hardware can handle in daily driver builds if pushed hard. It will tolerate over 30 psi of boost in turbocharged applications, so most any engine can be pushed to idiotic levels of power for a daily driver. It is becoming popular in many racing environments that allow it as it is in effect a cheap readily available "race gas".

Larry
Title: Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
Post by: Cajun Kid on August 21, 2009, 06:18:44 PM
Larry,

To Run  E85  wouldn't a carb change be needed ?

Say if you had a Holley 4150 or Quick Fuel  850  set up for Gas...  Can it run E85?

I heard that E85 is hard on the gaskets, seals etc ...and you need an E85 specific carb ?

Just asking as I have no idea.

Charles