Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: RichFox on August 03, 2009, 12:07:11 PM
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Have been thinking about what to do with the weird port arrangement on the '26 Dodge. This looks like a good answer. Better anyway. Mains also.
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For the Vega??? :mrgreen:
Mike
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That would be different, but no. Picture attached.
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What's the head? Olds??
Mike
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Morton & Brett, Indianapolis. A pure race part made for the Dodge in the day
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Couple of comments . . .
V-4 Dodge -- why not just cut a 360 in half?
I think that cast iron motor's probably too heavy for the Cessna, but it seems like you always find a way to make things work.
(Sure would like to drive that Packard-powered Vega some day -- I know how to follow instructions.)
Stan Back
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Stan, Your kidding, Right? V as in Vintage 4 requires a pre 1935 American made 4 cylinder motor of 220 cubic inches or less. You may not cut down a pre 1935 American made six or eight or anything else. It had to start life as a four. The Dodge came as a 212 cubic inch five main bearing engine. Which means that in the 20s it was pretty hot stuff. I was looking at a full on Roof Racing conversion with full oil pressure, 16 valves, special Roof main caps. Winfield carbs. A real race piece in it's day. Interesting old stuff.
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'course I was kidding!
I didn't realize Dodge made OHV motors prior to the Fast Four flathead that's in the sweet Street Roadster that held the V4F record for a couple of minutes last year.
Speaking of OHV -- Buick never made a flathead (I think).
Regards, Stan
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Morton & Brett, Indianapolis. A pure race part made for the Dodge in the day
Pure hens teeth, I'm sure.
Mike
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Dodge didn't make an OHV. M&B did. Along with Roof and maybe others. My engine is close to the "Fast Four" but mine has the early, stupid, single port intake. And the early, neat, aux-drive for the distributer instead of through the head and the round bellhousing flange, starter mount instead of the later cut off end of the block like a 235 Chevy or something. Mine is like a 292 Chevy. The head is a little strange by todays standards. And I had a lot of ideas for running a flathead. But I have it so I'm going to run it.
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It's all coming to me now . . . I thought the top picture was the stocker with some sort of F-head or whatever. But it's the stock block with the head in the bottom picture on it, right? (Left?)
Stan
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http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/m/morton_brett/morton_brett.htm (http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/m/morton_brett/morton_brett.htm)
A friend just traded a 1940-ish Indian (major project) for a very nice running M&B Model T sprint car and a pile of cash.
(http://winfield.50megs.com/Engines/Morton&Brett_Dodge.jpg)
Morton & Brett Dodge
Illustrated History of Sprint Car Racing: 1896-1942 by: Jack C. Fox
borrowed from: http://winfield.50megs.com/Engines/Engines.htm (http://winfield.50megs.com/Engines/Engines.htm)
Mike
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It's all coming to me now . . . I thought the top picture was the stocker with some sort of F-head or whatever. But it's the stock block with the head in the bottom picture on it, right? (Left?)The top picture is the Dodge block with the M&B head and valve cover shown from the exhaust side. The stock flathead had 4 exhaust ports. The M&B head has only 3. The next picture is the same engine and head without the valve cover shown from the intake side. The old stock intake port is that single hole seen in the center of the block. The third picture is of course the new main caps before drilling for dowel pins, and oil lines. And as you can see the last is the M&B head looking at the combustion chambers.
Stan
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Rich,
Is that the block my son brought down from Washington a few years ago?
Jim
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Jim; No that engine was nice and clean and painted and a Plymouth. This is some junky old Dodge. I gave the engine you had to some people from the Early Chrysler club. They knew a guy with a '32 PA that was about to have his engine rebuilt and said that they would give it to him. I hope it's running around somewhere now.
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I love this stuff!
Assuming that the width across the valves is the actual bore size, yes?
Just a few ideas, none necessarily useful:
1. if you have enough head deck thickness (hate to cut up a vintage race piece, but... that's what it was made for), or block deck thickness a big angle mill cut acrossto make a wedge and give some intake valve axis tilt into the bore. Obviously, spot face the bolt seats, re-drill the holes slightly for clearance etc.
2. more width on the siamese intakes
3. more intake height for some downdraft
4. close up the chamber opposite the plug. Easiest shape to plan is a heart (red area), also gives quench with a flat piston
5. if that exhaust notch is really needed, also relieve the cylinder wall
6. more rocker ratio
What did you have in mind for carbs?
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Being it's not my head, it's on loan. I don't get to cut it up. So it runs like it is. Still fun. Intake will be my favorite deal. Ford throttle bodies fuel injection. Same as the Plymouth.
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Some pictures of the rocker assembly I am mocking up for the missing M&B rockers
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And the block
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Those valves look huge for a 3 7/8 bore - 1.90 Ford valves?
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That's the way the head was made in the twenties. Morton & Brett built Indy cars back then. This was a serious race piece at the time.
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Think it will be ready for next year Rich ? Cant wait to see it run.
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That's more or less the plan. Might be in a different car.
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Rich,
You really come up with some cool stuff!! A Packard V8 and now an old Dodge banger!
Looking at the pictures, when it was a flat head did it have 4 exhaust ports and a single intake on the other side? Also was the block converted to 5 mains or was it that way originally?
Rex
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Yes on the ports. The Dodge Bros. street roadster that has run very well at Bonneville for the last two years is a "Fast Four" which has the more conventional two intake four exhaust, togeather on the same side as did my Plymouth and the many Fords that run on the salt.. Mine has five mains from the factory. Earlier engines had only 3. There is no pressure oil to the crank. Oil is sprayed from a spray bar to the main bearing webs and allowed to run down to small troughs from which it drips onto the bearing. Rods are splash. Earlier engines had a 12 volt starter/genorator which was geared to the crank and was very large. I am told that people converted them for use as portable gas powered ark welders.
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Back in the 60's Model A motors made great air compressors, I used to build them for tire companies for the service trucks. They run on 2 and pump air on 2 cyls. They really put out a bunch of air with a special head
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The Morton & Brett is a special head. But I don't think I would use it as an air compressor. If I did it would probably pump up a tire faster than a Model A.
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Rich,
How is this project coming along?
Jim in Palmdale
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Rich,
How is this project coming along?
Jim in Palmdale
More than one of us is curious!
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Very slowly. I set the crank in it yesterday and was going to install the pistons when I realized the rod bearings I had were .010 under and the crank is standard. Drilled the blowshield for the Dodge bolt pattern. Got the cam and lifters back. Should get the head back this week. So I am running out of excuses. Last week I bought a .26 Chevy with a .25 Olds head, Jahns pistons, Nash rockers, welded on counterweights. All the good stuff on a 40s Sprint car motor. It was on EBay and went for $1200. I couldn't pass it up. It should get here Tuesday.
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I like the way you color outside the lines, keep us posted ! :cheers:
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What lines :?
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I tried posting pictures of the jig. No luck. Something about upload thing being full. What I did was make a little thing with two plates separated by four stands. One on each corner. The top and bottom plates for the cone adapters bolt to these plates. That way they are held in place and pretty paraell. The length of the stands determines the height of the cone. So I cut out the top and bottom plates and bore them to the size of the Ford Throttle body + .125 for the top one and engine port size + .125 on the bottom one. The .125 is to allow for the .060 wall thickness of the sheet that makes the actual cone. So I made a templet out of paper that fit the assembly and cut out steel pieces to the templet. I also made an arbor with the Ford ID as its OD on one end and the port ID as the other end OD. Clamped the sheet to it and used a leather hammer to beat it around until I could start it into the plates on the jig. Tapped it down until the seam fit well tog eather. Stuck it there and removed it to finish. If you email me at V4GMR@yahoo.com I will send you the pictures this thing won't take.
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You're right about the "upload" thingie. I just was unable to load as small (70 kb) photo. I'll get Bob on it pronto.
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Rich,
Time for an update on the vintage Doge Bros. four project.
Jim in Palmdale
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Latest deal is to find that all the line boring and such put the crank centerline .032 closer (as best as I can measure) to the cam then the Bros. had in mind. So the new cam gear doesn't fit. I am now waiting on the gear cutter to make it smaller. The rings are much closer to the deck than I had in mind. Right now I think I'll run it. I am tired of "Do Overs" Besides, I'll always have time to do it over later, right?. Got all the internal oil lines done. Head is done. Gasket is done. I was going to work on the front cover and front of the pan when I tried putting the cam gear on. So that's the next big thing. and last I think. The blowshield is drilled for the Dodge.I need to make a rear seal holder. Buy a SBF flywheel. Put it in the car. Make headers.
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Rich,
Other than that, you're almost ready for Speed Week 2011. Keep posting, it'll make the Winter go faster for everybody.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Pretty sweet setup!
Any more pics?
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Rich: How is the motor progressing ? :?
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Recent picture with new front cover and stupid dampener I bought from Summit. .002 slip fit. Called Summit to complain. Tech? told me that a thousandth of an inch was very small and if it was within .005 I should be happy. What a moron. Anyway I now have new B&J dampener honed for proper press and am still waiting for cam drive gears. Finishing up the pan. Got the flywheel. Need rear seal mounts and lines for oil and fuel pumps. Slowely. Haven't been out in the shop this week. Did buy a new GMC van to replace my '92 Dodge. Anybody need a Cummins Dodge with 100800 miles. 5 speed tool box, exhaust brake, air bags and compressor in rear. push bar.
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And I had a lot of ideas for running a flathead. But I have it so I'm going to run it.
Looking good Rich!
Your engines are never mainstream, and always perform so awesome! I really dig the engines you choose.
How about enlightening us about your flathead ideas, mentioned above? I know someone who is all ears! :-D
Hope to see this on the salt this year
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It would have been pretty much along the lines of the Plymouth 4 except for the intake. And the bigger bore shorter stroke of the Dodge. But I never took much in the way of pictures of the Plymouth. People send me pictures of it in the museum. But never apart.
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Sure wish you had pictures of the Plymouth/Y block head conversion.
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Anybody need a Cummins Dodge with 100800 miles. 5 speed tool box, exhaust brake, air bags and compressor in rear. push bar.
You guys have really got it good over there.... a 5 speed tool-box?.... mine are all fixed ratio :roll:
Sorry Rich couldn't resist
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More from the museum
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Those are very cool!
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Beat me to it Doc.
DW
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OK. You guys had lots of fun. Now you want to buy a truck?
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OK. You guys had lots of fun. Now you want to buy a truck?
How about I rent a Uhaul trailer, haul that Vega back here with it and help you sell it in truck country!? :-D Ranchers just love them Cummings
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I don't think I'll have much trouble selling it here. Be a while before the new GMC shows up.
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Sure wish you had pictures of the Plymouth/Y block head conversion.
How well did that run ? :-o
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It went 135.XXX at the lake and Bonneville with the Ford head on gas. The flathead went 113.7 something on gas at El Mirage. Same cam,pistons, rods, Compression ratio.
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Rich, what are you planning/hoping for aout of the V4 Dodge?
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Mostly I just want to see it run. I don't expect it to be fast. It's purely technology of the 'teens. If it runs 125 I will think that is pretty good.
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I would think, that for technology of the 'teens, 125 would be pretty damn good! 8-)
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Time to update this thread Rich!
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Zendog has been pushing me to go out in the garage and watch him work on the Dodge. We got the pan on, rear and front seals handled. Some idea of the motor mount. and dialed in the bellhousing, made progress on the clutch. Still waiting for the cam/distributor drive gears.
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Mr Fox you never fail to amaze me! I have been collecting an assortment of "Offbeat" power plants, and parts over the years with the intent of doing something with them... someday. Now that I'm about to retire from the Military and take one of those cushy state jobs I'll have time to make "Someday" happen. I've gotten my choices down to 2 engines... A Perkins 3 cylinder Diesel, or a 1951 226 Ford six. Guess I'll have to put a blindfold on and throw a dart.. which ever engine I hit will be the one.
Anyway that Dodge is looking great! Keep us up to date.
Smitty :cheers:
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Looking good, Rich!
So, enlighten us as to Zenndog's involvement....
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Zenor Lukasiewcz is a semi local guy who is temporally cut off from his own projects (Chopped IH pickup, Stude powered T speedster) who responded when I mentioned that I could use some help. So he has been showing up on weekends and pushing me to at least get something done. Perfect for what I need. I think he is really trying to get the Dodge Bros. done so that I can resume work on the Studebaker pickup. Again, just what I should be doing.
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Mr Fox you never fail to amaze me! I have been collecting an assortment of "Offbeat" power plants, and parts over the years with the intent of doing something with them... someday. Now that I'm about to retire from the Military and take one of those cushy state jobs I'll have time to make "Someday" happen. I've gotten my choices down to 2 engines... A Perkins 3 cylinder Diesel, or a 1951 226 Ford six. Guess I'll have to put a blindfold on and throw a dart.. which ever engine I hit will be the one.
Anyway that Dodge is looking great! Keep us up to date.
Smitty :cheers:
A Perkins would be over the top on my Weird meter. Have fun. RF
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I can't wait to hear the Dodge fire and I am looking forward to putting it in your roadster.
I am disappointed that it probably won't make it to the salt this year.
If it seems like I want to get the Dodge put together it is just because it is fun.
At least if the plan is 2012 then I will have a better chance of planning ahead to take you up on your offer to drive it.
When you asked if anyone wanted to help with a Modified Pick-up I assumed the Dodge was finished.
Either way it has been a pleasure to help out.
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Well I know I'm glad for the help and lucky to have a skilled person jump in and push. Thanks.
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With some inspiration from Stan Back I've decided on the Ford 6. The Perkins will power my riding mower, or a pump or something. Any suggestions on how to make the bottom end hold together?
Smitty :cheers:
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I like the idea of good oil flow, as opposed to high pressure. (Large side clearances) ARP studs. I made some stout main caps for the Dodge. Big (Moroso) external oil pump to supply all that oil. I like the Ford idea myself. Is this for an XO project?
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Rich, I've been building on a 29 for about 6 years now. I've also taken exotic middle eastern vacations for the last 3 years so the build is more of a garage ornament at this time. BUT! Colleen says I'm getting to old to be playing soldier, and to find a safer past time.... LSR sounds good to me.
Thanks for the ideas. I'm picturing an engine that would make a Steam Punk jealous. XO, or V4 is probably the last of the "I built that from scratch" ways to get into racing.. you just don't go out and buy a set of rods, or a cam from Jegs you have to build or adapt most of everything, but you end up with a piece of art in the end.
Smitty :cheers:
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After Iraqi, El Mirage might seem like a pretty nice place. At least we don't shoot at you. The Ford is a little small for XO. But just as much fun as any. That's why I tried to get the XO and XF classes to change to the standard engine size breaks. F through C. No deal.
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Update Rich, or I will. Z
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Good Idea!
...we really don't care who does the update, as long as someone does! :evil:
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Zenon is doing all the other work anyway. He may as well do the update. The only things he dosn't know is that I made the adapter bushing and installed the pilot bearing. And the cam gear and test crank gear are comming over here next week so that I can confirm the fit. Soon after that the real crank and aux shaft gears will be made and all that opens up.
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Rich and Zenon, sounds like things are going your way! Can't wait to see what Zenon has to say.
If you guys end up needing a pit crew, I'll volunteer-Rich, you've got my number.
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Hey Rich,
That is great that you made the bushing and installed the pilot bushing.
You do more of the work that matters, I just do the grunt work.
In the last picture, I believe we had mounted and dialed in the bell housing. We also drilled and installed locating pins. we bolted on the transmission and figured out where the pilot shaft set in relation to the crankshaft. I assume Rich remembered what we decided since he made the bushing and installed the pilot bearing.
Since that point Rich milled a little bit off the flywheel so there was plenty of clearance between the bell housing plate and the flywheel.
We mounted the starter. That involved machining a mounting plate and then figuring out how to mount it to the bell housing plate. We had a small side issue of having to orient the starter so that the solenoid would not interfere with the oil supply manifold. All in all I think it went very smooth. It took a while because I was running all over this summer and didn't get out to work on it as much as I had hoped.
Rich fabricated the oil supply manifold during the week a couple weeks ago and installed it. The manifold mounts on fittings brazed to the oil pan which supply the mains.
I think this last weekend we worked on making plates to cover up various holes like where the original starter used to mount on the block.
And just to put it chronological order, Rich made the bushing for the end of the crank and installed the pilot bearing.
Rich had an old breather tube assy and we are going to modify it and make a road draft tube to help vent the crankcase. There is already a breather near the top of the crankcase. the road draft tube is supposed to help suck air through the top breather and out through the road draft tube by creating a vacuum. We need to fabricate a cap, even though I am doing all the work Rich may have that done by the time I get out to help again. :wink:
Once the gears are ready then we can clean and button up the engine.
Once that is done I think the plan is to set the engine in the roadster, fabricate the mounts to attach it to the frame, then figure out where to mount the alternator, fuel pump, and oil pump. We did a little simple figuring a while back and Rich expects the hood will need a big bulge to cover the engine with the M & B head on it. So that will be worked on as well as routing/rerouting various wires/lines etc.
How is that. I keep meaning to take my camera out a take some pics, but I keep forgetting.
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I had some other appointments today, but I did get the engine relocated on the stand so I could roll it over. Tomarrow I will pull the pan and aux drive so that I can check backlash on the new cam gears. This is a big deal because of the amount of time I have been waiting for these gears. Assuming all goes well the gears go back to the gear cutter and get finished. And the thing can finally get assembled with sealer on the gaskets.
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Update
Rich is still waiting for the gears to come back. That has everything at a stand still. There are many things that have to be done after the engine is in Rich's roadster but he doesn't want to put it in the car till it is buttoned up and to do that we need the timing gears. Zenon
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Any ETA on the gears?
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This gear deal is unbelievable. But yesterday I shipped the Bantam off to the blaster to see whats what. And shipped all my Packard parts off to Spokane. So I am out of the Packard business. Guess I can send Dan another email about the gears. Doesn't seem to help much.
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. . . and the Vega?
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Is for sale for $5000 as is where is, or make offer. Or available for loan to interesting engine owners.
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Here are some pics of Rich's Dodge from the weekend of 12/10, 12/11.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000427.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000429.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000430.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000431.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000432.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000433.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000434.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000435.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000446.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000445.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000447.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000448.jpg)
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Rich, were the stock pistons pop ups, or is that your deal? What's compression going to be?
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Seems like you've been waiting on the cam gears for a long time - they came out nice. Keep posting - love this vintage stuff!
:cheers:
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The stock CR was around 4.5 when it was a flathead. With the Morton & Brett OHV conversion it didn't go up much. They must have had some super pop ups to maintain even 4.5. I am shooting for 9 to 1. The gears took 11 months. Yes they are nice. But that is a really long wait.
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More of Rich Fox's 1926 Dodge motor, from today
Rich installed the damper doruing the week, this is a billet crank that Rich had made by Crower. It uses Dodge/Mitsubishi insert bearings which the block and mains were line bored to accept. Rich fabricated the mains himself. The crank nose accepts a SBC damper, and the crank flange accepts ford flywheels so he could bolt the engine on to the driveline already in his 29 roadster.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000484.jpg)
The front of a SBC oil pan was welded to the front of the original 26 Dodge oil pan so the motor uses a front seal from a SBC
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000485.jpg)
Here is a close up of the timing gears and the mix of spacers, one from the original 26 Dodge crank, and two Rich and I made while fitting the timing gears. This is also a good close up of the front main cap, note the fitting for the full pressure oil.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000486.jpg)
Oil pan from the inside, showing the pressure lines for the main caps and the oil manifold. All fabricated and assembled by Rich.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000487.jpg)
Another view of the crank
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000488.jpg)
It was difficult to attach the oil lines and then locate the pan, even though this was the down hill side, the caption would read "@@$#%^***##@!!"
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000489.jpg)
Buttoning up the pan
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000490.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000491.jpg)
Buttoned
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000492.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000493.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000494.jpg)
The story that isn't shown:
The rear oil fitting was in the way of the rear counter weight. after the first assembly we had to take it back apart and turn down part of the nut, took two cuts but its all good now!
After fixing the rubbing fitting, we were bolting the pan down, and realized we forgot the half of the rear rope seal that went in the oil pan so we had to unbolt the pan one more time. At least we didn't have to disconnect the oil lines, I was able to slip the seal in. Then we buttoned it up! May seem simple but this was a milestone day after waiting for the custom timing gears for 11 months!!!!!
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:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Outstanding.
I waited 7 months for my crank, whined about it, emailed and called the grinder, pulled my hair out.
But there is no greater satisfaction than finally getting the new pieces together, and nothing as cool as seeing a block older than most of us that somehow escaped the scrap heap, fitted with high quality, state-of-the-art components, and being prepped for duty its designers never imagined possible.
I love this sport, and it's precisely because of projects like this one.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Rich,
We're really enjoying seeing close-ups of your workmanship. John and Horace Dodge would be proud.
Can't wait to see it on the Salt.
Lets keep turning up the heat on those vintage Fords! We have some interesting mods going into our V4F Dodge motor for next year as well.
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While the oil system seemed like a good idea some time ago, when I built it. And I sure expect it to work. I would never do it this way again. And if we ever rebuild the engine the oil manifold will be in the two piece pan with only one line going in.
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Isn't hindsight great? As we get older we definitely get smarter! It's just that we begin to realize how much more there still is to learn. :-o :-o :-D
Pete
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Nice work guys! Thanks for the pictures. John
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Once again you amaze me Mr. Fox!
Smitty :cheers:
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The engine looks great!
I've noticed a pattern-all of your record setting engines, that I've seen, are yellow.If this one excels, I predict a LOT of yellow engines at Bonneville! :-D
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Yellow is good. Maybe I should have painted the Packard yellow. That would have been a lot of yellow.
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Yellow is good. Maybe I should have painted the Packard yellow. That would have been a lot of yellow.
Not to mention a lot of green.
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Zenon thinks we should cut a Pontiac head in two pieces and make a new OHV head for the Dodge bros engine. I don't think so, but. Today I did cut a Pontiac head in half to see what it looks like inside. In case you want to see what it looks like, here it is.
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Rich, you are as inquisitive as you are fearless. :cheers:
"Yeah, let's just cut one up and see what it looks like".
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Rich. Save your Pontiac heads. If you can wait a few years, we're going to see if we can get Earl (EDGY) to cast up an OHV Fast Four head. :cheers:
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If you decide to make a Dodge bros. head, I would go with the earlier block, such as mine. The off set distributor makes for a little less machine work. And they were made in much higher numbers. But then you guys have most of the Fast Four blocks already. And Earl wouldn't even sell me a flat head.
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I agree, the earlier motor would be best for a V4 conversion for availability reasons, and as you say, to save our stash of Fast Fours for V4F. Chris, Tony and I will be in California at the end of January. Any chance we could see your V4 in person?
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Just as long as you like yellow bangers. Come ahead.
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Pontiac or Lincoln Y block head.
Pontiac is fine but Lincoln Y block head would be too cool
I think Rich's dodge stuff will be in the museum before Earl finishes his OHV conversion
I was hoping for next year, just to get one more use for that beautiful engine Rich has built.
Rich thinks using and aluminum Edelbrock head is the way so we can weld in head bolt bosses.
My idea was to cut an iron head, and I had come up with a list based on the 1 & 2/ 3 & 4 bore spacing of the Dodge block
My thought was that you could cut a head in half, make two spacing plates, bolt one to each half, then, (since they stick out past the edges of the head...of course) bolt them together. The plates bolted together would make up for the big gap between the 2 & 3 cylinders.
I figured on just using a plate to mount the head to the dodge block, since it seems to me that is legal in V4.
Rich's pistons pop up already for the Morton and Brett combustion chambers 5/8" to 3/4", so I figured, while it is not ideal, it would work with the pistons to have a plate.
Rich doesn't want to do it so I was trying to come up with something I could just show up with finished one weekend and see if he still says no. :cheers:
I think if Rich went 130+ with a Ford Y block head mismatched to a Plymouth block a Pontiac or Lincoln head spaced properly over the bores might have a shot at 155. And that little 26 dodge on steroids deserves a chance!
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Zenndog, you know Rich- if you build it, and it looks like it would be beneficial, he'd probably try it! It sure goes along with his established theme.
!55 MPH would be a great feat! Good luck! :cheers:
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Rich went 130 and some change with his Plymouth motor. He ran a Ford Y block head with the stacked ports. The head didn't line up with the bores because of the wide bore spacing between the #2 & #3 cylinders which is a feature of early 4 cyl blocks.
I think it would be a big accomplishment to reach 155, but that is the record in GR/V4, so that is why I mention it.
It seems to me a better breathing head with the valves placed over the bores should have a shot at going faster than the 130 Rich went with the Plymouth....155+ may be a stretch though, but why not?
Rich and I are going to fit the Dodge into his roadster with the Morton and Brett, while it is there, after running the Morton an Brett, why not bolt something else on? At least that is why I keep pestering Rich about it.
Either way, the first step is to get the roadster to the Salt this year and that seems like a big goal as it is, weather it should be or not is a different matter!
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I may have inadvertently created a monster by showing Zenor that cut up Pontiac head.
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Probably
I am shocked that you went out and cut the head in half!
Let alone post that you did it!
I just take it as a sign that I peeked your curiosity. :evil:
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Got me wondering what might fit a stovebolt...............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
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I didn't think there would be much to bolt to in there. Only one way to find out. Looks like lots of iron to me.
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Well all of this is getting interesting, so let me post this question -
What are the bore centers on the DoBro?
I'm thinking looking overseas - maybe a diesel Benz head, or a Toyota Century Hemi head? :roll:
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http://www.google.com/imgres?q=toyota+century+hemi&hl=en&sa=X&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS368US368&biw=1191&bih=554&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=XKGQNYfwRQUPYM:&imgrefurl=http://www.choppersaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D52%26t%3D5042&docid=FAw79RykZIdW2M&imgurl=http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r166/Warpspeed_photos/toyotahemi.jpg&w=600&h=400&ei=tx3xTr2nHejz0gHF0MGGAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=525&vpy=245&dur=2611&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=151&ty=167&sig=115817010254572895338&page=2&tbnh=154&tbnw=200&start=19&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:19
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Got me wondering what might fit a stovebolt...............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Trent, just remember the rules are different for the stovebolt. That will run as XO, correct? That means you cannot use an adaptor plate, and must use the head bolt stock locations in the block.
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Chris:
Top (?) entry here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111622005544952&v=wall (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111622005544952&v=wall)
Unblown Fuel Modified Roadster - /FMR
V4 Aardema Eyres Braun S. Goetz 08/09 172.427
Mike
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Got me wondering what might fit a stovebolt...............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Trent, just remember the rules are different for the stovebolt. That will run as XO, correct? That means you cannot use an adaptor plate, and must use the head bolt stock locations in the block.
XXO like our friends from Montana :wink:
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I'll have to dig out the rule book. For some reason I thought you couldn't use OHC in Vintage Classes, but I must be wrong.
If you can, that would be SWEEEEEET! Hmmmmm...
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Trent, XO/XXO, same rule applies.
V4F STR 60, I do believe you are right about the OHC.
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Got me wondering what might fit a stovebolt...............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Maybe this isn't a stove bolt but, check this out. When I saw this I sent Rich an e-mail and he knew all about it.
http://www.racingstudebakers.com/foo/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2195
So the answer to your question may be....a small block chevy head and a half.
Milwaukee- 1 & 2/3 & 4 are around 4.625", I don't have notes on the center with me right now but 2 & b3 bore spacing is over 5.5", I think it is actually 5.750"
That is one of the big problems with putting "modern" OHV heads on early motors. The center bore spacing is always larger.
Rich can talk specifics but the Ford Y block head he put on the Plymouth did not line up with the bores, everything was a little off.
I personally find it more interesting to fit odd parts, while it is probably more effective to just engineer a head for the motor, I like the idea of using a original head and mounting it to the wrong engine.
Just to clarify, the only reason I have been thinking of this is because Rich has an engine ready to go, we talked about maybe making a flat head for it but he already drilled out the valve guides. Rich had the idea of making something like a Kong head where the relief was in head rather than the block. In my humble opinion, both the ideas we have discussed take advantage of the very unusual "pop up" pistons Rich needed to use for the morton & Brett head.
We will se what happens, first the engine needs to be in the roadster and the the car needs to run with the Morton & Brett
The pics Rich posted of the Pontiac head are what is great about Rich. We talked on Saturday when I was there to work on the Dodge and he pretty much said he didn't want to run another Frankenstein OHV engine, then look what he does on Monday, cuts up the head. Probably to prove to me it was a bad idea, maybe because he was curious, maybe a little of both! :-D
I don't know if any of you know this but most of Rich's intake and header flanges are cut from a huge 3/4" thick pipe that Caltrans dug up when they built the sound wall behind his house. Caltrans left a big pile of flame cut chunks. He flattens a piece out with his hydraulic press and then machines it flat on his mill, then machines the flange.
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I'll have to dig out the rule book. For some reason I thought you couldn't use OHC in Vintage Classes, but I must be wrong.
If you can, that would be SWEEEEEET! Hmmmmm...
OHC is legal in V4, Pete's new engine is a 3 valve DOHC that makes roughly 340 hp at the rear wheels on the dyno. :-o Tony
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Zenndog, I may be wrong, but I don't think that engine is legal for Bonneville When I checked, I could add additional head bolts, but I had to use the existing locations also.
Good to know Tony! V4 also allows an adaptor plate from the head to the block, not allowed in other engine classes-I tried to get past that, with a 3 piece head, but was denied!
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Overhead cam conversions have a long history in V4 racing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDq9Bfl9zA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDq9Bfl9zA)
:cheers: :cheers:
Mike
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I was wrong~
2.A.1 Overhead cam specialty cylinder heads are not allowed in the XF, XO, XXF, & XXO engine classes.
I think a trip to the junkyard is in order!
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Trent, XO/XXO, same rule applies.
V4F STR 60, I do believe you are right about the OHC.
SO!? I got a welder and a wild imagination! I was out in the shop (BEFORE THE CHAT WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN TARDY :-D) measuring a banger and some heads. Zenndog has the right idea in more ways than he knows. Crazy fools we are. :cheers:
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I was wrong~
2.A.1 Overhead cam specialty cylinder heads are not allowed in the XF, XO, XXF, & XXO engine classes.
I think a trip to the junkyard is in order!
But you are looking at Vintage classes, not Special Construction, no?!
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Trent, I'm not trying to imply that Zenndog is wrong, hell-I love the idea!
I'm just saying that in XO/XXO, it's not the same as in V4. It's a lot easier to modify a OHV head when you can use an adaptor plate, and not the original bolt holes.
Of course, if you didn't have to worry about the water passages, it would be somewhat easier to drill the head to match the block.
Just saying....
As for special construction, since the engine is XXO, would not the vintage engine rules apply?
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I don't think and XXO or XXF engine is allowed OHC no matter what body class. I think DOHC is only allowed in V4/VOT. Single cam bangers are allowed see Roy Creels single stick Ford. I believe he has a one off head. I cut the Pontiac head in half because we were discussing Zenor's idea. The only way to know if you could bolt a plate in there was look. It's dumb to argue about something when you could just find out what's what. It's a learning experience. Maybe learning stuff of no importance. But learning anyway.
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I seem to learn how much more I need to learn every day.
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Were we arguing Rich? I thought I was just pestering you. :lol:
Just to make certain everything is clear, according to my x-wife I am always wrong. :wink:
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I think we are all thinking outloud about SIMILAR wild ideas but different classes and rules! Buddy, Rich,v4f and myself.
Buddy, Special construction is more open than Vintage classes from what I have learned. Besides, I am just doing some armchair engineering/speculation. I love to see stuff like Rich has come up with.
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Were we arguing Rich? I thought I was just pestering you. :lol:
Just to make certain everything is clear, according to my x-wife I am always wrong. :wink:
We were like two guys looking at a box that has a ball inside. One guy thinks it's a soccor ball. The other thinks its a Basket Ball. They could discuss this for years without resolving anything. Or they could open the box. That was my choice.
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So was it a soccer ball or a basket ball?
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It was a baseball. That's why I'm so confused. :?
More V4 updates at you convenience please.
Merry Christmas
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Disco
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I think this is going into a roadster - he'll need all the balls he can get. :cheers:
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Rich, I guess I will see it in a week anyways but I have a question.
On the Pontiac head, what is that round hole/passage just above the center water jacket? It looks like it goes all the way down the head right below the rockers.
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Just for clarification -- V4 engine rules are V4 engine rules no matter the category the engine is in. Hence, a C motor is a C motor.
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Rich, I guess I will see it in a week anyways but I have a question.
On the Pontiac head, what is that round hole/passage just above the center water jacket? It looks like it goes all the way down the head right below the rockers.
Believe that is the air injection passage way for the exhaust reheat.
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Rich-that is what I thought, what feeds it, is it linked to the exhaust ports like the post 71 ford 351M/400 heads?
Stan- I think they are referring to this section which is a quote from the V4F/V4 rules
"For reasons of economy and historical authenticity, vintage engine modifications are restricted to
older technology levels, so far as is practical. Accordingly, in classes V4 and V4F, using
Vintage bodies:
1. Turbochargers are not permitted;
2. Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only;
3. Electronic fuel injection prohibited;
4. Any ignition system may be used.
This is a quote from the rule book that is in the recent SCTA publication "clarifying" V4F/V4 rules.
The part about "using vintage bodies" seems to imply special construction is not limited by the items listed below the paragraph.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but DOHC heads are allowed in V4?
Wasn't there a streamliner running a heavily modified Model T engine that was running in V4 and ran a turbocharger? It went 200+ I believe. Did it run V4 or just in class for displacement?
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Did the Vesco 'liner (#444) run a "T" motor this year at WoS or SpeedWeek? They went quite fast for the engine if I remember. Maybe after posting I'll go find the run sheets. . .
Later -- they ran a "D" motor at WoS -- Rhonnie at the helm, and a "B" motor at SpeedWeek. Dang, I thought I remembered hearing the announcer tell us about the car running the vintage motor. If someone knows the story -- please let us know, okay?
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SSS. no vintage motor this year both meets were chevy's. One has a big window in it the others lived. No plans at this time to put the vintage 4 cyl in it as the is some crank work to repair(we hope)
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How soon they forget. Matrix Machine---V4F/BFS---201.700 with a turbo charged "T" block. Also Stewart Family and Creel turbo V4F lakester. These are two turbo charged Speciality bodied cars that come to mind.
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The question was about the Vesco liner.
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Okay - and thanks, Glen. At least I wasn't too far off -- they do have a vintage motor for the car even if they didn't run it this year. Maybe what I heard was discussion about them running it.
Merry Christmas to Carol and you, too.
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We ran the V4 two years ago and the flywheel didn't seat right on the crank shaft flange and buggered it up pretty bad. We are looking into metal spray or welding to fix. Haven't pulled it out of the block yet.
Next year plans are still being talked about including a blown motor (roots) type. Also looking for sponsors for the Turbinator.
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The Vescos entered a V4/GS in 2009. The motor is based on the A-B-C blocks.
At SpeedWeek 2010, Joel Young from Phoenix set the V4F/BFS record at 201 with a T-based motor. Only 194", too.
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The question was about the Vesco liner.
The question was about a 'liner with a "T" block, turbocharged that ran over 200. See post just before SSS. At least the one I answered.
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SSS, asked about the Vesco liner That's the one I replyed to.
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Rich it looks shorter than the one you brought out to Elmo a few years back. how long is it?
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The question was about the Vesco liner.
The question was about a 'liner with a "T" block, turbocharged that ran over 200. See post just before SSS. At least the one I answered.
Supercharged not turbocharged, correct? No turbos in V4F.
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No Turbos in Vintage bodies. Specialty construction ('Liners and Lakesters) are allowed turbos. I know it didn't seem that way a few years ago. Talk to Miler Mike and Roy Creel. Not me. Rick, the engine from bellhousing flange to injector pump pully is 31 or 32 inches. I cut some off the nose/motor mount to allow the use of a dampner. So I guess it's a little shorter than it was.
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so it looks like it would fit in the liner......
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so it looks like it would fit in the liner......
I see the virtual wheels turning^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :-D
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I am amazed how much chatter has been going on around here.
I am kind of shocked you even brought this up Rich.
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I had come up with a list based on the 1 & 2/ 3 & 4 bore spacing of the Dodge block
Zenndog,
Any interest in sharing your list?
Pedro
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Sure, Rich pointed out that due to the order of the valves, some of these choices would require a custom cam. According to Rich, Pontiac and Lincoln would not. Oldsmobile and Pontiac have aftermarket aluminum heads available.
These are only classic engines, I didn't look into modern engines. The info is harder to come by on the web it seems. I wasn't thinking about the fact that there is .150 of bore offset allowed, so many modern SOHC or DOHC heads would work.
For some reason I thought that DOHC were not allowed but now I cannot find any reference to that in the rules.
Also if you cut a SOHC or DOHC head to fit over the bores, then the cam (or cams) need to be modified also.
Rich isn''t really interested in another OHV heads for the Dodge but who knows?
Enough rambling, here is the list.
These are engines that have the same bore spacing as the 1 & 2/ 3 & 4 clyinders on the dodge, followed by displacements that have 4" bore
Ford FE, 332, 352 (4"), 359-391 (4.050")
Lincoln Y block, 341(3.937"), 368 ( 4")
Olds Rocket, 371 ( 4")
Olds, 350 (4.057"), 400 (4" )
Pontiac 301 (4")
Happy Holidays everyone!!!
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I am amazed how much chatter has been going on around here.
I'm surprised you're surprised. I know in my case, it's the odd and unusual configurations and ideas that makes this type of racing really interesting.
I am so sick of belly button small blocks, the new Japanese stuff is just too darned perfected, and even the diesel stuff is getting boring - to me, anyway.
We should probably return this thread back to Rich, but press on, brother. You're clearly driven by curiosity and ingenuity, and this thread is turning into a great read.
:cheers:
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Thanks zenndog. Merry Christmas to all!
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I agree that this type of creativity makes for some neat hardware!
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Several years ago [ while waiting on some floater plates being ground] another customer told me about his
duel overhead cam heads for model A and Bs that he was making to sell. This was in Paso Robles Ca. anyone heard of them?
There is alot [some]? vintage oval track racing, seems he was making them for that market.
JL222
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John,
The head you are talking about is the REM Offy head, built by Bob (Robert) E McKinney (REM) it is a two valve hemi design double over head cam. My friend Steve Nelson has one in his V4FL lakester and set the record this year at 194 mph. After Speedweek he went on the dyno and they found some more horse power and it is making about 280 hps as it sets. Steve's combo is: 214 cu in, 15:1 compression, mechanical Hilborn injection, MSD ign, 5 main bearing billet crank, Elgin cams. Steve is pretty conservative in running it and does not go above 5500 rpm. He is looking to get the record over 200 next year. I have attached a pic of the engine and car. It is an extremely nice car and a classic tank design and very well built.
Rex
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Well. There goes my theory about DOHC heads in V4. Guess they are legal.
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Well. There goes my theory about DOHC heads in V4. Guess they are legal.
In a roadster or only in special construction :? So very confused...
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Soon they will allow aftermarket blocks. Another example of why the RFTA is required. 8-)
Milwaukee- I guess it is because I have been bugging Rich for about two months now like a constant low buzzing in his ear about the idea of coming up with a OHV head to run on his engine after the Morton & Brett. He has not been very keen on the idea but I keep thinking about it. My first thought was a 392 hemi head, but the push rods for the exhaust would go through the cylinders. Then I measured the bores, and through e-mails, Rich stated that the Pontiac might be the head he found most interesting. When we talked a wee ago now he was thinking no, then he cut the head in half and posted it. I am a little surprised to see all the activity and comments, don't know why I am surprised because the whole idea has kept me up at night a few times.
I think it is great.
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I think you could find it pretty easy to have a following for all of the early motor classes, 4, 6, 8, V8 etc to be all have to be built only with early equipment, no turbos, no electronics, no specialty heads (other than what was built say pre 1950) and have that in all classes, including streamliners and lakesters. Probably not something that the SCTA would want to get into right now. Even at the price of old speed equipment it would probably be less expensive than some of the stuff you see being ran now.
Rex
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We had that in V4F. For a year or so. Then things started slipping into a dollars class. Like everything else. My Dodge will never have a Pontiac head.
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I think they should pass a rule that makes Rich run a Pontiac head. :evil:
Just kidding.
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I think they should pass a rule that makes Rich run a Pontiac head. :evil:
Just kidding.
I'd second that! :cheers: :cheers:
Rich always has cool stuff though!
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Hey. I offered Zenon the cut up Pontiac head and a Dodge block & crank. Time for some new blood on this.
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Here is my crude rendering
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/scan0002.jpg)
Rich, I am in. I was just waiting to see you to talk about it. I need to finish the Studebaker head as well.
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Zenndog, I think this looks and sounds like a real fun project!
Please keep us posted! :cheers:
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Zenon will post better pictures. But for those who can't wait
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I like it ! John
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Rich -
Thanks for assuaging our impatience.
Shooting for August?
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Expect it will be done before August but am planning on WoS.
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A whole bunch of pics from today
When I showed up at Rich's house he had already moved the engine off the engine stand. He also installed the gilmer drive on the damper. Rich is a master at reusing bits that are around his shop. The gilmer drive pulley is from the Lotus engine he ran. ( in the 80's?) I don't think I actually snapped a good shot of it but we will see.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000554.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000555.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000556.jpg)
Bellhousing/blowshield with trans installed for fitting, we installed once with the flywheel/cltch off so we could double check how far the Trans input shaft was going into the pilot bearing. Checked out OK, forward with assembly.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000557.jpg)
Assembly, bellhousing plate and flywheel
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000558.jpg)
Friction plate and clutch
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000559.jpg)
Throwout bearing and fork
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000560.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000561.jpg)
The pinto trans is very light, I picked it up while standing over it and after a couple trys everything slid together, here is a blurry pic of Rich putting in bolts
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000562.jpg)
Then Yoda lifted the motor so we could admire it, no actually we just used the lift since apparently Yoda didn't actually come to help out today.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000563.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000564.jpg)
Rich taking a rest and admiring his handiwork
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000565.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000566.jpg)
I spent some time cleaning the roadster, Rich asked why I was wiping off all his Muroc dust. Also just some shots of the roadster.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000567.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000568.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000569.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000573.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000574.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000575.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000576.jpg)
Back to work! Tight fit!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000570.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000571.jpg)
Getting close
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000572.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000577.jpg)
We removed some of the oil lines, the primer pump was in the way. That is okay though, it comes off.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000578.jpg)
We were a little worried about the original starter bump hitting the steering box, that does not come off!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000579.jpg)
step back and ponder
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000580.jpg)
Transmission lined up with/slipped onto drive shaft and we were actually 1/4" past the mount bolt lining up! Hard to see the shaft in the pic
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000581.jpg)
Will come back next year to finish
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000582.jpg)
Started bulge clears steering box just fine!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000584.jpg)
We will need to work on the clutch fork, it hits the frame, and will probably hit the firewall before engaging the clutch. Yeah yeah, a problem for next year
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000583.jpg)
Just a peek at the clutch slave cylinder
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000585.jpg)
That is all for now, have a happy and safe New Years Eve!!!!!!
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Expect it will be done before August but am planning on WoS.
Good call. I will see you there! :cheers:
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That's looking great!
You going to take a video when you fire it up? :-D
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No video.
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I think if you videoed it in Super 8, it would remain in the vintage class. I'll have to check the rule book.
Looking great guys!
Happy New Year :cheers:
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We will need to work on the clutch fork, it hits the frame, and will probably hit the firewall before engaging the clutch. Yeah yeah, a problem for next year
Just a peek at the clutch slave cylinder
We use a Howe internal hydraulic throwout bearing. I know, not old school, but you already have the clutch master cylinder. Just a thought.
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has AN fittings also :-o
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My camera takes video, I will video the engine firing. I am going to bring a six pack that day. :cheers:
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Thanks Zenndog! :cheers:
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Dodge didn't make an OHV. M&B did. Along with Roof and maybe others. My engine is close to the "Fast Four" but mine has the early, stupid, single port intake. And the early, neat, aux-drive for the distributer instead of through the head and the round bellhousing flange, starter mount instead of the later cut off end of the block like a 235 Chevy or something. Mine is like a 292 Chevy. The head is a little strange by todays standards. And I had a lot of ideas for running a flathead. But I have it so I'm going to run it.
The next time we are chatting I would like to hear your flat head ideas Rich. Z
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We will need to work on the clutch fork, it hits the frame, and will probably hit the firewall before engaging the clutch. Yeah yeah, a problem for next year
Just a peek at the clutch slave cylinder
We use a Howe internal hydraulic throwout bearing. I know, not old school, but you already have the clutch master cylinder. Just a thought.
I believe a less expensive fix than the hydraulic throw out would be to insert a spacer between the fulcrum and the bell housing. Thereby moving the throw out arm closer to the pressure plate fingers and into a more correct position.
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I think it is interesting to point out all the small problems that come up, I think that for every thing that is pointed out there are 6-10 others that were dealt with and most are now forgotten, and may never be mentioned. If you don't enjoy solving little problems, this is the wrong hobby.
The other day when we were putting the motor/trans into the roaster Rich said "we have a problem", I was thinking, "I am sure it is no big deal", then Rich pointed out that the Dodge factory starter bulge was hitting the steering gear housing. I thought, "now that is a problem". I had to laugh because it reminded me of this quote from a movie I watch with my kids, Kung Fu Panda
Shifu: Master! I have... it's very bad news!
Oogway: Ah, Shifu. There is just news. There is no good or bad.
Shifu: Master, your vision. Your vision was right! Tai-Lung has broken out of prison! He's on his way!
[pause]
Oogway: That IS bad news.
Rewrite:
Rich: Zenon, we have a problem. :-(
Zenon: No, I think the oil manifold is just caught on the primer pump but the pump can be taken off. :-)
Rich: No, look at the starter bulge cast into the block, it is hitting the steering box. :|
Zenon: Oh, that IS a problem. :-o
Of course it wasn't a problem after all! :cheers:
Happy New Year!!!!!!!!
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Update, I was at Rich’s on Moday, MLK Jr day. Rich made part of the brackets to mount the engine, some neat little accessories for the engine tilter that would allow us to slip the chain onto brackets rather than have to bolt it to the block. And he added an actual handle, which it has never had because it wasn’t in the box when I bought it.
The goal today was to remove the engine to add a spacer to the clutch fork fulcrum to allow the clutch fork to engage the clutch easier, and hopefully before it bumped into the firewall. Also the goal was to fabricate the engine mounts so the engine is actually mounted in the roadster.
We started by lifting the engine and setting it in the position we wanted it in
Level from side to side, 3 degrees from front to back-even though the engine will be fuel injected, mechanical of course!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000623.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000624.jpg)
Once the engine was leveled, we bolted the first part of the engine mounts to the block and then the “doughnuts” to the frame with the second part of the steel bracket attached. Then I tacked them in place. I didn’t get any pics because I was welding. But here is a picture after the mounts were tacked before I finished welding the first one. The steel parts attach to an aluminum collar or “doughnut” which is attached to the frame. Rich never welds to the roadster frame because he has put so many engines in it.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000625.jpg)
Here are the mounts from different angles
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000635.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000634.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000633.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000626.jpg)
Once the mounts were ready the engine had to come out again
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000628.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000627.jpg)
Here is a close up of the leveler with the brackets Rich made and the new “handle” for turning the screw
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000629.jpg)
I guess I didn’t get pics, but we looked at the clutch fork and decided that a ¼” spacer was the place to start for the fulcrum. We lowered the engine on the hoist and pulled off the trans and bell housing again. It went smooth. While I was looking around the shop for the hood sides ( which were right in front of me on the wall), Rich made a ¼” spacer and had it bolted back on. So we but the trans/bell housing back on the engine and put the engine back in the roadster.
Here is a couple of pics which show where the clutch was before and where we wanted it to be. This is pre- spacer
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000630.jpg)
This is where we want it to engage ( I am holding it)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000631.jpg)
Here it is back in the roadster, after the spacer is installed on the fulcrum, with the engine bolted into the car
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000636.jpg)
Here is the before
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000583.jpg)
I think that is an improvement!
Here is where Rich turned out the lights, quitting time. Engine bolted in with solid mounts, clutch fork positioned where we want it.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000632.jpg)
The Montana dodge boys are coming to visit Rich next weekend. Should be fun, don’t know if I can make it but I hope to.
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I missed the Dodge Boys, but they stopped in to see Rich last Tuesday. We got some work done this weekend, here are some pics
First, here is where we left off
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000636.jpg)
The job for the day is to attach the slave cylinder for the clutch. Here it is with the bracket as used on the Plymouth
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000668.jpg)
we decided to attach it to two bolts on the bell housing, here is a pic with the nut removed from the top bolt
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000669.jpg)
Another angle
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000670.jpg)
We made a larger plate that lined up on the bolts we wanted to use and then welded the old bracket to the new plate. Here is the result. The adjustable push rod and spring were used on the Plymouth. There is an aluminum bracket, which is hard to see, that holds the spring. I had to grind off the back of the original dimple in the throw out arm with a carbide bit in a die grinder to make a hole to mount the spring.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000671.jpg)
Another angle after it was installed
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000674.jpg)
We spent some time staring at the oil pump and different ways to mount it. Rich wants to think about it more so we stopped there with the fabrication work.
While Rich was checking the internet for different sized timing belts to use for the oil pump, I took the Roto-Phaze distributor out to check it on the engine. Rich was concerned that it may hit the hood so while he was busy I decided to check it out.
Here is a distributor that Rich modified to fit the dodge. This has been in many of the photos you have seen in this thread.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000675.jpg)
Here is the Roto-Phaze.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000676.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000677.jpg)
The Roto-Phaze distributor cleared the hood so i think it should be a go.
That is all for now.
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I love this build!
It's looking great guys! :cheers:
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On another note, I bought my helmet, head restraint device, and Nomex head sock in early January. I went with DJ Safety.
I didn't take any pics but we also re-installed the flooring panels, driveshaft/trans covers and I took a moment to sit in the car for the first time. Pretty cool! 8-)
The next time I am there I will get Rich to take a picture.
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After a lot of holding the pump here and there and finding which belt was right this is where the oil pump ended up. Now to find a place to put the fuel pump.
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How about on the back of the oil pump?
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That's how I had it on my Plymouth. We will see. RF
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If it won't work on the back you could add another plate and support bearing on that long shaft then add a second pulley out front to drive the fuel pump. You'll need some long spacers to get the load back to the engine block.
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The plan was to put the pully hard against the oil pump pully and mount the Hilborn drive to the back of the bracket that holds the oil pump. Not sure I have room for that. Haven't really tried yet. Or there is the aux drive shaft running at crank speed on the other side.
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Any way to mount it on the front cover and run it directly off the cam?
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Rich likes the fuel pump to run directly off the oil pump. That way if the oil pump stops spinning the fuel supply stops also, the engine dies. Z
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It would require a new front cover to mount the pump and then I think the dampner would be in the way. If I wanted this to be easy I could have bought a crate 350. I wouldn't have minded if it was somewhat less hard.
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I couldn't tell from the photos where the cam was located (probably in the same place it has been for years). Foolish of me to offer the suggestion. I'm well aware that you know more about that engine (and all engines) than I. Just thought I'd offer it up for discussion.
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If I wanted this to be easy I could have bought a crate 350. I wouldn't have minded if it was somewhat less hard.
That should be in the landspeed quotes section, hahahah, I laughed when I read that. We all want it to be a bit difficult, but right in the the thick of it you're always wishing it would be over soon. I cringe at the amount of time and money I've spent when you're lost in the maze and it seems like dollars will save you time, in the end it takes lots of both , and patience. :roll:
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I couldn't tell from the photos where the cam was located (probably in the same place it has been for years). Foolish of me to offer the suggestion. I'm well aware that you know more about that engine (and all engines) than I. Just thought I'd offer it up for discussion.
I welcome any and all sugestions. But in this case i have to much time in that cover to even think about a new one. We will find a place to put the fuel pump. It's funny that the Dodge is a shorter stroke engine than the Plymouth was. But has such a wide crankcase. I don't remember the Ply being this much trouble. But in a few years maybe I wont remember this either.
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lol :cheers: :cheers:
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I'm with Anvil- if you can't run it off of the rear of the oil pump, the front looks good.
I'm not even sure you would need the plate and bearing setup-just hold the fuel pump pulley tight against the existing oil pump pulley.
I know you Rich- you're probably machining the parts to mount it, while we're reading this!
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Putting the pully in front of the oil pump pully was the plan. Mounting the pump drive and it's pully off of the back of the oil pump was also the thought. But I forgot about how much room the hose takes up. Time to find a new place for the fuel pump. Plenty of shafts running around on this thing at both crank and cam speeds. We will see about it in the morning.
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Some pics.
Rich mounted the oil pump but the lower fitting was hitting the pan rail
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000761.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000759.jpg)
So off it came to mill a new set of slots that would raise the pump slightly and allow the fitting to clear the rail. These are just a series of pics. For the most part I just tried to stay out of Rich's way.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000762.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000763.jpg)
Rich made some screws with points on them, we marked the plate on the car but then Rich wanted to make sure we had the right marks and them make them nice a deep
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000764.jpg)
Center drill
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000767.jpg)
Milling the slots
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000769.jpg)
The first new slot milled, the pencil marks are where the others will be
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000771.jpg)
Pump remounted
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000773.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000774.jpg)
We looked at the fuel pump for a while. I think Rich decided where he wanted it but it was like a presidential election, what is the least bad choice. He wanted to think about it during the week and probably work without me looking over his shoulder. I imagine that if he gets it mounted he will post a pic.
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This is pretty much where the pumps go. Minus the Vice Grips and with a stand off to brace the pump. Higher than I wish they were. But they go where there is room.
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Looks good Rich, but don't the vice grips have better clamping power if you flip them around?! :-D
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It works, and it looks good!
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I've always been a "worst case scenrio" kind of a guy, so to me, this makes sense - if the oil pump belt breaks, everything shuts down, if the fuel pump belt lets go, you've still got oiling.
Seems there's never a perfect solution, but this is a damned good one. :cheers:
Any other clearance issues to deal with on the front?
See you at WOS.
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Looks good Rich, but don't the vice grips have better clamping power if you flip them around?! :-D
I'm thinking of going with a C clamp when it's done.
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I've always been a "worst case scenrio" kind of a guy, so to me, this makes sense - if the oil pump belt breaks, everything shuts down, if the fuel pump belt lets go, you've still got oiling.
Seems there's never a perfect solution, but this is a damned good one. :cheers:
Any other clearance issues to deal with on the front?
See you at WOS.
This is about it for the front of the engine. I still may mount an altinator. But it will be further back.
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Looks good! Whats next?
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Sorry I can resist, I like the BFH method. Making good progress fellas.
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Looks good! Whats next?
I'm sending the C clamp out for chrome
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Looks good! Whats next?
I'm sending the C clamp out for chrome
Trivalent or hexavalent? :-D
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Say What?
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Say What?
Chrome joke, not as funny if it needs explanation :-D
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How about a stainless steel c-clamp?
Then you can just have it polished :roll:
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Zenon just couldn't live with the Vise Grips. So I was forced to drill and tap for studs. Some guys are really pickey.
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Oh sure, blame me!
I thought we could leave the vise grips there for tech inspection. :-o
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I need the Vise Grips to fasten the seat belts
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Hate to be a pest but I thought I might use the larger vise grips to fasten the seat belts.
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Rich replaced the bearings in the fuel pump drive this week
Today he checked the fuel pump to make certain it was set up for reverse rotation since it will be facing toward the back of the engine.
He waited till today because I expressed an intrest in seeing the inner workings of a Hilborm pump
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000816.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000817.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000818.jpg)
Rich spent the day working on running /attaching fuel and oil lines. I was working on the Studebaker head
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000833.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000838.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000839.jpg)
Oil level site gauge
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000842.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000858.jpg)
The boss was pleased, but hungry
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000852.jpg)
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Nice seeing the progresss guys! :cheers:
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I stopped by and visited Rich today.
The head is out in the workshop and he is cutting the head studs to be the right size
He annealed the copper head gasket
He finished attaching the oil lines
He is thinking that Saturday may be the day the head is bolted on.
Sorry, no pics. Maybe he will add some.
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Outstanding - can't wait to see this one with the FI and headers in place.
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I wanna hear it run!
Rich, are you going to be at El Mirage in May?
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May is the plan. I installed a new aluminum push plate with an antenna for a center sight. I expect to set the head on shortly to make an "example" push rod and send it to Smith Bros. Do the soft spring test of valve clearance. And that kind of thing. Not quite ready to fire it yet.
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Cool! See you there!
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Cool! See you there!
Me too. :-D Wayno
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Wayno, We were pretty swamped, and a whole lot overwhelmed, when I saw you at Speedweek. I'm really hoping to be able to have a good chat with you, if you have time, at El Mirage!
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I have starting line duty Saturday morning. We'll find a way. Wayno
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I have duties on Sunday, but like you say, we'll make it happen!
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For your eyes only. Looks like the hood is going to need some work. I am going to make the sample push rod and send it to Smith Bros next.
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Good thing I am heading over there this Sunday or you will have the whole car together and I will miss all the fun! Looks good. Z
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It's just sitting on there so I could measure for the pushrods and stuff.
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First off, I was at Rich's today, which was my original plan and what I had e-mailed him. Since I had posted the post above about coming over on Sunday, Rich was not expecting me when I showed up this morning. Ops. No problem.
Here is a shot of the header flange with stubs brazed in for the headers. Just a detail pic.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000981.jpg)
Here is a shot of the rocket arm assembly
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000982.jpg)
Rich has the test springs in place on the #1 intake and exhaust to check valve clearance when the pushrods come in
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000983.jpg)
Everything is just set in place so I flipped over the rocker arm assembly to show a little glimpse into how it is put together. Rich fabricated the rocker arm stands and the plate.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000984.jpg)
Close up of the throttle bodies and intake "manifold", modified Ford throttle bodies and intak fabricated by Rich, of course.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000985.jpg)
Close up of the lifter cover, fabricated by Rich.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000986.jpg)
Rich wanted to make a second test pushrod to double check the length, here is the rod set to length
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000988.jpg)
The head studs were test fit and were tight. We thought it might be the copper head gasket ( fabricated by Rich ). So Rich is drilling out the stud holes.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000995.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000996.jpg)
I took a minute to take a couple of pics of Rich's next engine project in the wings. Lincoln 368 Y-block. Rich has been collecting parts for years. Billet cam blank, forged flywheel, lakewood bellhousing, just to name a few of the goodies waiting to be installed on this engine.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000997.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000998.jpg)
Checking the head studs on the gaskets
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1000999.jpg)
We checked the rocker arm assemblies on the studs, they were tight also so the assembly was taken apart and Rich opened up the holes.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010001.jpg)
Done
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010002.jpg)
The studs under the rocker arms were touching so Rich shortened them on the lathe. He also had to shorten two of the othe studs that screwed into blind holes.
Here are before and after shots of the studs under the rockers
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010004.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010008.jpg)
The most of the head studs were still tight so Rich is going to order a reamer to open the holes for the head bolts. There are also two head studs that need to go in two "pockets " under each of the exhaust ports at the end of the head so Rich is waiting for some set screws he ordered to arrive to do the job.
Here is the engine at the end of the day
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010009.jpg)
Night
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What a fantastic build! Tony
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This is hard on an ol' guy. I just go through all this beautiful Dodge porn and then Tony changes his avatar!
To Rich, awesome project, looks great! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
To Tony, awesome avatar, looks great! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Great to see you guys have so much progress since we were there last month. Awesome job! Keep up the good work. See you on the salt!
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Rich when you get through with that Y block project I may still have a 56 F250 it would look great in----that is on down the road for both of us I am sure!!!
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Zenon is kind of forgetting about the '28 Chevy with the Olds head that I want to get running and the V6 for the Bantam that needs building. Then there is his Stude head project and maybe a Ford 400M he has in mind.
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I not forgetting about all that stuff
I think I was referring to Bonneville engines.
I think it would be a good way to christen the Stude Pickup.
Obviously it is down the road.
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Guys, that's some fantastic work, on a very cool engine!
I can't wait ti see this one-keep up the great work!
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During the week Rich reamed out the holes for the head studs to 17/32”. We started out the day setting the head on the engine but were still having issues with the head studs binding when we tried to screw them in. During this somewhat frustrating process we noticed that the head was not sitting flat. We determined that the #4 piston was lifting the head slightly. We removed the head again and discovered this “bump” Rich had had welded in to aid with sealing near the head bolt hole was in the path of the piston slightly. Rich decided to grind it down with the die grinder.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010026.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010029.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010032.jpg)
After Rich ground down the bump so there was sufficient clearance, we set the head back on the engine. The piston cleared but the binding of the studs became worse! Rich is going to order a couple more reamers to ream the holes to 9/16” and that better work. Maybe he will think of something else to do during the week as he takes time to ponder the problem.
In the mean time, even though we were a little down about the head we did some work on the water lines to get the water hooked up and ready to go.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010052.jpg)
And here is a shot with the valve cover on just for motivation
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010055.jpg)
Have a great week!
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That engine looks taller every time I see it. Wonder how it compares to a Buick 8?
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Wonder how it compares to a Buick 8?
'bout 4 fewer cylinders, by my count . . .
Sorry, Stan, just couldn't let that one alone . . .
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I would bet the studs and/or the head bore holes are not parallel all to one another
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Sparky-the original head bolts on the Dodge engine were 7/16". Rich changed them to 1/2" studs. The holes in the head were 1/2", but when Rich reamed them last week they turned out to be tapered, they become smaller at the bottom. Hopefully the larger reamer will work. Maybe rich will comment here on what he thinks about the whole thing. Z
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I'm certainly not accustomed to seeing that much negative deck-height of a piston- looks like about 3/8"? How far below the deck does that place the top ring land at TDC? What's a cylinder's resulting chamber volume? Compression ratio?
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If you go back and look at the pictures of the head you will see that the coumbustion chamber is giantiac. When this head was made 4.6 to 1 was pretty a normal CR. Think of it as a regular flat top piston with a big pop up. The rings are still in the usual location. The resulting CR is 9.5 to 1. I do agree that the studs are not at a perfect 90 degrees to the deck. Even though they look like they are. Since the original haed was held on with 7/16 studs I have decided to turn the shanks of these studs to 7/16 rather than ream the holes further. A local shop that builds several sprint car engines tells me that he grinds the shank on ARP studs to clear the bolt holes on aftermarket heads. Feels that by now SBC heads should be right on and thinks the threads rolled into the stud is less that perfect. I have not had this happen before. But I have not fooled with anything quite like this before.
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Turning the stud shanks to 7/16 did the trick for having a free turning installation. Since the engine originally had 7/16 studs I believe the ARP studs will be fine with the turned down shanks. How the holes in the head got the taper they have is a mystery. Maybe someone hogged them out with a hand drill sometime in the past.
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Rich, I'm in awe on this one. My only question at this point is given the large crown height, are you confident you have enough clearance in the head to accommodate any piston rock?
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Rich,
What are the throttle bodies off of that you are using?
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The cumbustion chamber is a good 1/8 inch larger than the bore. I am using Ford 4.6 SOHC throttle bodies.
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Thanks,
I assume you made the barrel valve.
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The pump, barrell valve, and hoses are from Hilborn
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I think he posted this but Rich ended up turning down the OD of the studs
Last Friday I stopped in to see Rich before heading down to LA. I helped him set the head on the engine. During the week he torked down the head.
We started off today by switching around the end rocker arms because the pushrods were either too close to the hole in the head or already rubbing a little. The roller is slightly offset so just spacing the rocker to fix the pushrod issue caused the roller to be not centered over the valve
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010259.jpg)
Before, Front rocker, roller view
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010260.jpg)
Before, Rear rocker, roller view
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010263.jpg)
One stud on the rear of the engine and one stud on the front of the engine needed to be removed to take off the rocker arm. After the retainer was removed of course!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010264.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010265.jpg)
The spacers had to be switched around and one of them modified a little
After, Front, roller side
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010268.jpg)
After, Rear, roller side
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010269.jpg)
The angle on the second pic was off, but the rear was still a little off the valve. The main issue which was hard to see anyway was the rubbing of the pushrod on the head and that is now fixed!
After the rocker assembly was back together we set the valve lash, .026 intake and .028 exhaust, as per Dema Elgin’s instructions. We chatted about it for a while because it seems like a lot when you are double checking everything. Rich was going to call Elgin and ask why the lash was so great. We figured it must have to do with allowing the pressure to not come on until the lifter is off the steepest part of the ramp on the cam lobe. I am certain someone will chime in.
Next Rich moved on to bolting on the intake
Here he is making the gaskets
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010270.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010271.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010272.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010274.jpg)
Intake assembly bolted on
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010281.jpg)
The fuel line needs to be made up to finish the intake, that will wait for another day
Dodge/Morton & Brett problem of the day, oil return issues.
Here are the pics with explainations
First is hard to see but remember this pic from a while back, it is a detail shot of the M & B head where the rocker shaft assbly mounts. Notice the raised areas in the casting where the original rockers mount?
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/1926%20Morton%20and%20%20Brett%20Head/P1010038.jpg)
Now look at the way the aluminum plate that forms the base of the rocker assbly sits
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010279.jpg)
The oil needs to drain over the aluminum plate to drain into the lifter gallery.
Here are some pics of the lifter gallery. Look closely for oil return issue #2
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010275.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010276.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010278.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010277.jpg)
In case the pictures are not clear…..there is no provision for oil to return to the bottom end!
After discussing different options, like disassemble the engine and drill some holes, run lines from the side cover and valve cover to a hole drilled in the distributor drive housing, Rich decided to drill a return line into the cover for the through hole between the #2 & #3 cylinders.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010291.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010290.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010292.jpg)
The plan is to put a “T” fitting on the return that Rich put in the unused intake port in the block.
Here is a pic
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010293.jpg)
I am sure Rich will think about it during the week and perhaps have another answer or finish off the return we discussed.
In the meantime, some motivational pics
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010289.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010288.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010286.jpg)
One last pic of Rich taking a break and thinking about the oil issue.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010282.jpg)
At this point we took a drive up to the shop where Rich’s bantam is being worked on….but they weren’t in today.
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Rich wanted to point out that the torking down of the head involved attaching his lift so he could lift it to apply copper coat to the head gasket and also so he could start the nuts that go on the short studs which are under the two outside exhaust ports. If I am lucky he hasn't posted that while I was typing this! :-o
Rich also pointed out that the nuts had to be tightened down a little at a time as the head was lowered into place.
Rich also had to tork the nuts under the exhaust using a crows foot ratchet attachment, as well as the nuts under the rocker shaft. Which he said was a little bit of a pain in the $#@.
Wish I could have been there to snap pics but I was in LA and Ojai where I travel on the weekends for work on occasion.
It is hard to write down every step when I am helping, let alone when I am not there to watch and take pics.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/1926%20Morton%20and%20%20Brett%20Head/P1010051.jpg)
Coming in the future, to name a few things that stick out....
Attach priming pump make and attach fuel line for the priming pump
make and attach fuel line from shut off valve to barrel valve for injectors
fabricate headers
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I will start off with a couple of pics of what Rich did during the week to deal with the oil return issues.
First he ended up running a return line from the back of the valve lifter cover to the rear cover of the distributor gear housing.
Here is a pic
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010391.jpg)
Then he cut the rear corner off the rocker arm plate to allow oil to drain through the rear pushrod hole without needing to spill over the 1/2" plate and fill the valve cover up with oil.
Again....here is a couple of pics
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010392.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010393.jpg)
Now for what we worked on today, removal of exhaust gasses from the engine to outside of the roadster.
Rich didn't want to let me complicate things by over thinking so he just jumped in and started cutting tubing
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010394.jpg)
Copper in place to protect the valve cover
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010395.jpg)
I cut and tacked the first pipe. Then I cut a second pipe and trimmed it a little at a time till it fit. Once it fit I mrked it with a grease pencil and cut out a hole with the plasma cutter
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010396.jpg)
Hole cut and back on the engine
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010398.jpg)
Tacked together, oh and I guess the down pipe is tacked on also
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010400.jpg)
Turnout tacked on
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010402.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010403.jpg)
After cutting and gradually fitting the last pipe from the third exhaust port, again it was traced with a grease pencil and cut out with the plasma cutter. You will have to take my word about the in between stuff because I took no pictures while I was cutting & trimming.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010404.jpg)
Tacked in place. Rich is going to have the headers finish welded by a pro. The coated black
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010406.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010407.jpg)
Thats all for today
Primer pump attached to frame and fuel lines run to it
One last fuel line to connect the shut off valve to the injectors
Some wiring
Add gas
Add oil
Time to fire the Dodge is getting closer, much closer
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Above after "thats all for today" I meant to type " Things To do Still", we didn't get all those things done yet. I was too late to modify the post!
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It's looking great! :cheers:
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Really lookin forward to getting this car/engine to the salt!
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I hope that you don't mind that I altered the fotos a bit.
FREUD
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More of the same..........
That's all Folks.
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Now what's going on? Where did those pictures come from and what's altered on them? Did I leave the door unlocked?
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What are we looking at in the bottom photo?
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It should be apparent that all that was done to the originals was to put detail in the shadows.
FREUD
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What are we looking at in the bottom photo?
The bottom photo is this one with out the finned block off plate. I guess Zenon didn't expose it right and Freud photo shoped it or something.
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Hey Pa, you need to eat more carrots 8-).
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You guys are funny
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"headers" came back from the welder
Here is Rich marking where he wants the sensors for exhaust gas temp
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010420.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010421.jpg)
Then we drilled the holes and the "headers" will be headed out to get jet hot coated black
Here are some pics
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010427.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010428.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010429.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010426.jpg)
We reattached the primer pump and ran the fuel lines for the priming system.
Rich had attached the last fuel line for the main injectors
Rich also made the valve cover gasket
We made the spark plug wires the right length and put them on
Pretty much getting to doing some minor wiring before we are ready to fire the engine
Couple pics
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010422.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010424.jpg)
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Stopped by to see Rich tonight. We won't be working on the car this weekend. The hood is at the metal worker having a "bulge" added to clear the valve cover. The headers are still at the coating shop. Rich hooked up the throttle this week. Just thought I would post a quick update.
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The Pinto fit. The Lotus fit. The Plymouth fit both flathead and OHV. Here is the Dodge Bros.
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Just like a glove.
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Zenon took the day off so I had to take the pictures. Sorry about that. Today I made a new remote oil pump to fill the filter and lines with oil. I made another one some time ago, but a fellow roadster racer liked it enough that now I needed a new one. It's an old 460 Ford oil pump with a -10 fitting welded to an angle and bolted to the pump. A pice laying around got bolted to the angle and became the support I clamped to my chair. Some hex I had became the drive and my 3/8 drill motor running in reverse will pump 4 quarts faster than reading about it. And it was free. The conector hose timed out on the slelf so it was also free but new. Now about the tappet cover leak. Didn't think there would be much oil there.
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In case anyone cares, I used a Ford oil pump because I have them left over from other projects. And the hex drive is easy to work with. A 302 pump would have worked just as well. But the 302 has a 1/4 hex drive and the 460 has 5/16. I have a bunch of 5/16 hex stock, so that made the 460 pump my choice
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Neat idea for a pre-oiler.
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Rich-I can`t see where you are routing that oil line. Does it go into the block through the fitting/plate assembly between the cylinders? Where do you have your pressure gauge connected?
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The line from the preoiler goes to the remote filter mounted on the firewall. Then to the oil manifold on the right side of the block. And to the mains from there.
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That's a cool idea! See you next week!
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Here are some pics from today
Rich got the headers back
We finished the wiring
Then we were chasing oil leaks
We still have a leak from the valve cover, we decided that the valve cover is not flat and ls not seating in the spot it needs to the most.
Rich is going to get the valve cover resurfaced and I am going to make a new gasket and we will clean thoroughly and re-seal.
I also spent some time sitting in the car with my helmet on and testing my head and neck restraint.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010515.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010514.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010513.jpg)
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Nice fotos.
Thanks.
FREUD
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Extra under hood room for Dodge bros. Thanks to John Buddenbaum for the aluminum work.
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Rich, looks great will you be at the lakes this week end?
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No. Zenor is being a family man this week end and I have been a little down. We will make the June meet.
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Looks good Rich!
Sorry we're going to miss you this weekend.
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Here is the car loaded on the trailer at 4:30am, 6/9/2012, ready to head out to El Mirage to get the car inspected.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010694.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010696.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010697.jpg)
Here we are 5-6 hours later at tech inspection
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010700.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010698.jpg)
I got my head and neck restraint checked out and the inspection sticker for my helmet.
We need to change some of the foam on the rear roll bar to allow my head to sit further back and Rich is going to look into question the inspectors had about the fire system nozzle in the engine compartment. I will need to do the bailout still after the foam is replaced but everything looks good!
We didn't stay long before heading back up to the bay area
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Rich, that's a good way to be sure when you take it back in July. At least you know the changes are simple. :cheers:
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Roll Cage Modifications
We need to limit side to side motion around the drivers head. Rich, as he often does, had a plan, we set in to make Rich's idea a reality.
Hammers and grinders and Pliers....Oh My!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010797.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010798.jpg)
The tubes are there to space the side pieces the way we want them^^^^^
I prepped the roll cage by removing paint from the areas we want to weld.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010799.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010800.jpg)
Here is the right side
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010803.jpg)
Left side
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010806.jpg)
Rich working on two "spacers" that will be welded in the center. His hole saw was being difficult
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010807.jpg)
Ready to weld
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010808.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010809.jpg)
Tacked in place, with padding taped in
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010810.jpg)
Version 1, spacing right, driver can get his B@tt out without his pants getting caught on the foam and steel. And that being with the cockpit cover off.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010812.jpg)
Version 2, Cock pit cover on, front lower corner of "padding mounts" trimmed, Driver can now get in and out. Rich plans to run this by tech to make sure it looks good because next time it will be inspected will probably be WOS
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010813.jpg)
Detail
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010814.jpg)
All for this week
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WOS?!? What happened to Speedweek? :-
Sounds like it's time for a Red Bull.
:cheers:
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V4F- You will need to talk to the car's owner about that, I am just the driver. I go where the car goes. :cheers:
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I prefer the WoS meet for room availability and shorter lines. Same salt.
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The Yogi Berra approach -
"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."
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I prefer the WoS meet for room availability and shorter lines. Same salt.
Rich, with four courses there is never a wait anymore. It's not unusual to get multiple runs on the first day, and you can 'do laps' by Tuesday.
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You are right. I still prefer WoS.
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We started out to do some welding today, but between me and the welder it just wasn't working out. Rich is going to have a professional come over and finish welding the plates we put in to limit side to side movement.
In the meantime we needed to bleed the brakes and fill the trans with gear oil.
When we tried to open the brake bleeders, they both broke off....... :-o.
Rich blamed "Wendover Lock-tite"
We went to the NAPA store in Burlingame and they had wheel cylinders for a 1956 Oldsmobile in stock.
A couple hours later we had brakes again.
I think we were both a little disappointed that bleeding the brakes turned into replacing the wheel cylinders but we took care of it and now we know the brakes are in good shape.
Sorry for no pics, there was much rust and brake dust and I left my camera in the bag! :roll:
Then we filled the trans with gear oil and called it a day.
Rich plans to make two aluminum plates for each of the side to side restraints to mount the foam on. Then he plans to drop said plates with foam off at the upholstery shop to have them covered.
Next week we hope to start the engine and I will take a video and hopefully figure out how to post it. :cheers:
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Rich blamed "Wendover Lock-tite"
I'll be using that one in the future! :-D
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Looks like I'll have to be a spectator art WOS, as I really want to see this run! :cheers:
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The good news was that the first store (NAPA) we went to had right and left wheel cylinders on the shelf for a '56 Olds. The worst news was that later my hard drive blew and i spent all day buying this new one an getting it working.
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Got another one yesterday Rich! :-D
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You have a bunch of them. Hope the ones you have running never need replacing.
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Yes, hopefully this years modifications will stop the carnage! :-o
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Another minor set back this week when we were preparing to start the car. We filled up the tank and there was a drip. I slid under the car to check the fuel line fittings and noticed it was dripping from a welded area on the bottom of the tank itself. So we pumped the gas out, removed the tank and washed it out and took it down to a welding shop Rich uses to get a hairline crack welded up. So starting the car will have to wait till next week.
Here is a pic of car sans tank
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010872.jpg)
Here is a shot of the finished roll cage modification
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010874.jpg)
Here is a shot of the water tank and independent rear suspension, it uses Morris Minor torsion bars, Lincoln torq tube joints, V8 quick change and oldsmobile axles (?) and brakes. Not the best shot but just thought I would throw it in.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010871.jpg)
Here is a shot of the cockpit area, just for fun
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010873.jpg)
Hopefully next week I will have a video of the engine running.
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Since you sorta asked the question, Axel is a Scandinavian first name, axle is a mechanical part.
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Since you sorta asked the question, Axel is a Scandinavian first name, axle is a mechanical part.
Good time to poke you and ask for the return of the spell check feature........ you axle :-D
Now back to Rich's #104 roadster 8-)
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Tank is welded and back home again. $40. Cheap enough considering how many welders don't want to hear anything about gas tanks.
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Looks good!
Looks like it's all but ready to run.....
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Speedweek or WOS?
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Since you sorta asked the question, Axel is a Scandinavian first name, axle is a mechanical part.
I have no idea what you guys are talking about....... :?
:wink:
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Speedweek or WOS?
WoS
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Room Reserved :cheers:
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Well....Rich put the gas tank back in
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010876.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010875.jpg)
Here is a shot of rich re connecting the line from the primer pump to the primer injectors
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010877.jpg)
Here is a shot showing the shock absorbers
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010878.jpg)
We spent the day trying to fire the car after we made certain everything on the gas tank was reconnected and tight.
The starter kept slipping out of the ring. The starter was off and on the engine a couple times. We identified a couple of issues and once corrected the starter was working better than it had before, and even the way it should perhaps! But by then we had drained the battery and so we knocked off for the day.
Rich needed to pick up a 1928 Chevy engine at the UPS freight hub so we ended the day picking it up, unloading it into Rich's garage and looking at it.
I plan to take and extra battery with me next Saturday, August 11th and hopefully we will get the engine fired.
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Engine still hasn't fired as of 8/17
Close but no cigar, Rich is certain that it will start when pushed.
We ran a test of the cooling system. After 60 years of service the aircraft surplus water pump has quit. Also the two coolant holes on the block, one set up as the input for the coolant and the other plugged leaked.....a lot. So we set out to remedy these issues.
We removed the Water tank and the original pump
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010924.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010925.jpg)
It was difficult to remove the old pump, it looked to be in bad shape for sure. Here is the old pump Rich next to the tank with the new pump mounted.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010926.jpg)
Here is the pump mounted the morning of 8/17
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010927.jpg)
Before I forget, details of the rear suspension. Just for fun.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010923.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010922.jpg)
New pump. Water tank back in car.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010945.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010948.jpg)
Plugged hole, plug removed. I cleaned off all the paint, sanded, and cleaned out all the casting flash/rust. This is before cleaning the casting flash/rust off.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010949.jpg)
Maybe you can tell in the pic above but one of the two screws that held the plug in place was noy really tapped into anything so Rich fabbed a larger plug and we drilled it with four holes. Here it is mounted.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010955.jpg)
Here is the front "input" hole. This was the original input for the coolant.
I cleaned it as well. We expect this plug, with the AN fitting for the inlet line, to seal once silicone is applied and it is screwed down again.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010952.jpg)
Here is a side of the block with both leaky areas shown.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1010951.jpg)
We plan to work on it this Saturday. Hopefully it will be all buttoned up.
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GREAT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Patched up cooling system!
Got car to fire!
Everything Packed for WOS!
Can't wait.................................NOT!
Notice anything wrong about this picture??????
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1020131.jpg)
I mean besides the head being off the engine.
Well, incase Freud doesn't photoshop my picture so you can see it, the #4 piston looks like the Salton Sea. Yep, full of nasty water.
But we are okay, we will just remove the head, go over the gasket with a fine tooth comb, re anneal, and re install. NO SWEAT!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1020137.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1020134.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1020138.jpg)
Wrong!!!!!! Still leaking
Why why why why.....The curse of the dodge? The curse of the Morton and Brett head
Note this picture of the #4 exhaust port. See that old repair. Turns out the water was filling up the port with water and the water was spilling down into the #4 piston when the exhaust valve was opening.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1020143.jpg)
Here we are at the end of the day
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/P1020140.jpg)
That is Bob who is owns the head, he beat a hasty retreat shortly after this photo. Rich started suggesting we load the Morton & Brett into his Bob's truck!
The day looked like this
Rich had put the front plug back on, we filled the cooling system and the front plug was still leaking.
Plug comes back off, we go to the hardware store for some socket head cap screws. Plug replaced, cooling system filled. No leaks! Great!
Rich wants to crank the engine with out the plugs. Plugs removed, engine cranked, water shoots, yes shoots, out of #4 plug hole.
Head comes off. Everything gets cleaned. Gasket gets some attention, additional deburring etc., gasket is annealed, head is re installed.
Cooling system filled again, engine is cranked, looks good at first.....then water is shooting out of #4 again!
Sigh :-(
The we drain the coolong system, but decide to refill and look at exhaust port while running pump............Massive leak. After the head is back off i spot the old repair.
Rich plans on taking the head to his welder on Monday, still a slim chance we might make it but probably not at this point.
On the plus side, no water in the oil and Rich was in a better mood when he saw how close to the outside of the port the leak was so who knows, it may still work out.
Will update when anything is known.
Oh yeah, on a side note. Yes that is a 28 Chevy engine on the stand. It was set up way back to run in a midget racer. full pressure, welded on crank weights, tractor magneto, etc. Olds head with Winfield intake. Pretty neat!
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Hi Rich
Do you think those ' Irontite ' pipe plugs would work to stop your exhaust port leak ?
My friend used them at his automotive machine shop all the time, they worked very good.
Don
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Perhaps a plug would work. There is a patch of welded or brazed in steel just inside the port and I believe welding or brazing might be best. Not absolutely sure at this point.
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I don't see how we could get a plug in there, maybe I am being dense.
How would we get a drill and tap in there?
Who knows how much material is left to put a plug into?
I think the welder Rich uses can seal it up. I have high hopes.
To be specific, the leak is at the bottom of the repair.
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Guys, this sucks. :-P
I trust Bob's comfortable with any repair necessary to make this go?
Weird situation, to say the least. It's Bob's head, but you certainly have a huge investment in its use.
If the casting required a repair there before, it's reasonable to assume it's weak in that area.
Bore, sleeve and weld? :roll:
Press on, Rich - keep us posted.
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Yes I am becoming concerned about the cost of repairing Bob's head. But the rest of the engine isn't worth much without it. The thing has been really killing me lately. It seems like next year may be the best option. Bob, of course would like to see the head repaired and run.
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Hi Zenn
These are small dia. long tapered cast iron pipe thread plugs, you can put them half on the other one to follow a crack.
Since they are long you have quite a bit of threaded area to seal the crack.
On a exhaust port you would drill in on a angle then tap & insert with the sealer, when done use a die grinder and clean off the outside parts and that's it.
Don
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Rich, it bummed me out to get your email with the news!
Knowing you, though, and seeing what Zenndog is capable of, I have no doubts that you'll get this running.
Probably even in time for WOS, if you want to!
Yea, I see your pre-entry is for sale, but it ain't sold yet! :-D
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I am pulling the plug for this year. I think that is best.
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Rich, Have a look at www.locknstitch.com I have used these in both aluminum and cast iron for years and years now with great results. I can send you some with some special sealant I use. If you can paint this stuff on both sides of the pin I know it will never leak. I've had iron blocks that looked like spider webs went you mag them and was able to repair them successfully.
Doug in Big Ditch
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Rich,
We have been where you are in this with lots of hours [and dollars] invested. Don't envy your position. We have had to take that deep breath and just walk away and start over. Don't think you are at that point yet, I think there is still hope to fix the head. It's a lot easier if you are dealing with the intake side. I think your welder has the best chance of saving it, but don't get in a hurry and spoil a lot of good work.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Actually I had a pin in one exhaust port of the Packard due to over zealous die grinder work. In this particular instance I think welding will be the best repair. Since it is somewhat apart anyway, there are a couple of other things I would like to look at. The oil pickup for one. Fire slots in the piston domes for another. Stuff that I could live with because I wanted it to be at WoS. But now I think I'll step back and rethink some of this.
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Rich I love following you builds---thanks for the photos----fun challenge---its rewarding stuff you do!
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Since it is somewhat apart anyway, there are a couple of other things I would like to look at. The oil pickup for one. Fire slots in the piston domes for another. Stuff that I could live with because I wanted it to be at WoS. But now I think I'll step back and rethink some of this.
It's the balance between getting it done and getting it right.
Rich, you're going to get it right, and all of those niggling little thoughts that might be simmering will be gone when it hits the salt.
Press on, Chief!
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According to Rich, plug officially pulled for 2012.
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I'm sorry I haven't been to your site recently so I didn't do my job on your #4 cyl with water.
You've seen enough of that for now, I am certain, but I brightened it up some anyway and
will reattach it. That hole is out of the area of sharp focus but this makes it somewhat easier to see.
If you run into a serious foto situation, just send it to me and I'll do my best to assist you.
I hate it that this took you to the mat for 2012. You remind me of my Father. I saw many setbacks
in his years of building and it seemed impossible for him to quit. I feel that you are of a similar breed.
He would walk away and I am certain that he would be thinking of the problem and the possible solution
from then on until it was solved or he started over.
You are to be commended. It isn't a SBC. It's what racers had to work with as late as the '40's. You are
just showing what racing has been in the past. Hang in there, Pal.
FREUD
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Oh yeah, we will eventually beat this thing into submission. But it has been a fight.
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Rich, you make all of us think about repairs and what can be over come with time and planning. As always thanks for all of your input and ideas. :cheers:
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Bummer! :cry:
I guess I can cancel my plans to come see you at WOS!
Let us know if there is anything we can do to help.
:cheers:
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You could stop making it look easy. I'm getting embarrassed with how long this is taking me..
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Rich, remember that Treit and Davenport are in their 13th year.
You aren't slow at all.
FREUD
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The head is not back yet from the welder
Today I stopped in at Rich's and we installed a "crash switch" in the line to the primer pump. I pulled it off a Taurus at Pick & Pull for $5.
I did some work on the Stude head which is in the tech section.
We looked at the roadster and chatted.
Not much to do till the head gets back.
Rich is trying to find somewhere closer than El Mirage to do a push start.....any suggestions? The street is not an option. Rich is thinking about a drag strip out towards Sacramento.
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Head is back from the welder, in a couple of weeks we will bolt it back on unless Rich decides to do it sooner. Then we will find out if the repair worked.
-
Got the head back this afternoon. Much welding was required to patch the port floor that had rotted out. I don't think I'll blend it as I really don't want to take it back. I give up. Either it's to big or to small. How I hate these things, but it now works.
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Nice repair! :-D :-D :-D
If there's any seepage just throw in a bottle of Bars Leaks. Your weldor did good.
Pete
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I think it's good that this is on the end port, rather than in the shared port, and I agree, given that you can't see what's going on in the water jacket, I'd skip trying to blend it in, and just leave it - at least for the time being.
Prove the concept, and then start tweaking.
Chin up, Rich - you've got a lot of very interested folks out here who know you can make this go. :cheers:
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Got the head back this afternoon. Much welding was required to patch the port floor that had rotted out. I don't think I'll blend it as I really don't want to take it back. I give up. Either it's to big or to small. How I hate these things, but it now works.
Rich,
The welder should be able to give you an idea on how much you can blend the port. What did he have to say about the weld? Did he grind out everything and put a plate in? Or?
Tom G.
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He ground out that which was to thin to weld to and then just started laying beads. He is kind of hoping I just run it as is. PS What I gave up on was trying to post the picture. But I tried and tried again and finally persevered.
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Quick update
Rich bolted the head back on.....when I showed up on Sat we hooked up the water lines and to our great dismay the head still leaked! Rich is going to take it back to the welder.
Despite the bad news, we located a spot where the drive shaft was rubbing a little and eliminated the rub.
We also checked the oil screen but it looked good at the pickup and it looked good.
Waiting for the head again.
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Depending on the amount of leakage you may want to try a bottle of Bars Leaks. I've found the pelletized stuff works really well. It's sometimes rather difficult to get old, dirty, brittle castings to seal up completely.
Pete
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I have used Bars Leak in the past and find it works very well. In this instance the rust out of the port floor is pretty extensive. more than what I would use Bars Leak for. And Bob, who owns the head paid for a weld repair which I believe he should get. Or his money back. We have lots of time right now until WoS 2013. So I will try again to have the head repaired. i did put together some parts so that the welder can use water to check his weld rather than air, which didn't seem effective.
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Quick update;
Rich picked up the head last I heard from him, still leaking.
Welder gave up, not sure what is next.
-
I'm thinking you may need to bore out the old port, weld in a sleeve and recontour. Zenn, how far down the port is the leak?
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Rich is looking into some high temp epoxy that Buddy posted a link for on the Stude head thread. If that doesn't seem like it will work then he is thinking about powdered metal welding. We will see.
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Update ~ Rich contacted us to help him work out the head issues. We're going to pick the head up in a few weeks and take it back to Montana to have it pressure tested and magnafuxed.
We've unfortunately turned into the resident experts on cracked vintage Dodge banger parts :-o
If all goes well, the Fast Four Special crew will have Rich's car in our pits next August to crew for Zenon, and finally get the Morton and Brett on the salt!
Cross your fingers!
Pedro
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Nice, Pedro. You have the resources and experience. Good of you to Volunteer for the task. Im looking forward to more progress, and to hear it run as well.... :-D
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Thanks! We're really excited to help Rich get the Morton and Brett project going again!
:cheers:
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That's great, Rich!
Pedro, that is uber-cool of you! :cheers:
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I'm stoked to finally see Rich's car, and to see your team run. Will Rich be there too, or just the car?
Chris
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I don't expect to be there.
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:-o whats up Rich :?
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I won’t speak for Rich, and I’d love to meet him, but his prior posts indicate a preference for the less crowded events.
Rich, if you change your mind, I’ll be at Speedweek this year, and I would cherish the opportunity to meet up with you.
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I am using up my medical insurance before Obama screws it up.
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That's great, Rich!
Pedro, that is uber-cool of you! :cheers:
Thanks Buddy,
We're really stoked for the opportunity to work on this uber-rare vintage head, not to mention help Rich, Zenon and Bob (the owner of the head and a friend of ours) fulfill their dream of seeing the M&B run down the salt. We'd obviously be crazy NOT to seize this opportunity to be a part of furthering Dodge banger history on the salt, as well as selfishly gain a free education on V4 Dodge motors. Good information as we start designing our rule-bending hemi-headed Fast Four powered modern interpretation of a vintage belly tank for 2015. :-o
As far as Rich is concerned, I think it's safe to say that a lot enthusiasm for the poject went out of Rich when the crack was discovered. He has a ton of time, energy, and money into this project.
We're honored that he thinks we're the right guys for the job.
:cheers: The Montana Dodge Boys
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Rich we are all rooting for you!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Update ~
We brought the Morton and Brett head back to Montana in February. We tanked it and pressure tested it and found that not only did the repair that Rich had done was still leaking, but 3 other leaks; two between old repairs in the valve area (where it looks like the rocker studs pulled), and some major porosity in the casting on the front of the head. We are sending the head to a race shop that specializes in vintage engines to have the mjor crack welded, and the leaks repaired. More updates as they become available.
In the mean time I've become obsessed with learning more about the Morton and Brett company since they were located just a few miles from where I grew up in Indy. Their 'home' track was literally across the alley from my grandparents house. Here's a good summary
http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/m/morton_brett/morton_brett.htm (http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/m/morton_brett/morton_brett.htm)
I also found this 1929 catalog on eBay... for $135 yikes!
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It sure makes me feel inadequate when I'd like to support Rich.
I guess that's another reason to do it as young as you can.
Aging puts a lot of limitations on what we want to accomplish.
Love to ya, RICH.
FREUD
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My dad had a Fronty head on his hopped up 25' T in 33' , never knew the Chevy bros made them.
It was pretty trick in its day - drilled crank for oil pressure - Winfield carb - lowered with a 2 speed rear and Buffalo wires plus a driver controlled exhaust cut out for when you wanted to wake up some folks !!
My dad got tired of putting cranks in the thing becaure they were weak from the drilling, so he sold the car to my uncle Dick and he put the reg head and crank in it so he could drive it all the time.
Right before WW11 he was driving the Tommy Lee car and they had gone 148 mph on sat and ready to set a record on sunday and that was Dec. 7 so no record for Dick Nowell & Tommy Lee
Don
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It sure makes me feel inadequate when I'd like to support Rich.
I guess that's another reason to do it as young as you can.
Aging puts a lot of limitations on what we want to accomplish.
Love to ya, RICH.
FREUD
We're still aiming to get the head on Rich's car for an excursion down the Salt. I doubt it will be Speedweek, but possibly WOS or WF if the stars all align. if not, 2014 for sure. We are limited by time, the desire to not destroy an extremely rare piece, getting it repaired correctly, and MONEY. This is not going to be an inexpensive undertaking.
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It sure makes me feel inadequate when I'd like to support Rich.
I guess that's another reason to do it as young as you can.
Aging puts a lot of limitations on what we want to accomplish.
Love to ya, RICH.
FREUD
Thanks. I'm not dead yet. In fact I feel pretty good today. I appreciate the Montana Dodge Boys stepping in to finish this engine. They get things done. And that's what I believe it needs now. I was pretty young when I first went to Bonneville. Glad I did. I agree with FREUD. If you are making excesses or putting it off until next year. Don't wait. Go now.
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I just want to thank all of you for chasing this dream. As a vintage engine freak this is so cool!
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Rich, any progress on the head?
When can we expect to see this bad boy run????
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Check with the Montana Dodge Boys.
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Rich, have you not talked to Bob about it? Sorry, I thought he had you in the loop. Give me a call sometime, or shoot me an email.
Pedro
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I have been looped. But never in a loop.
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Now that i am in the loop, it looks like it will be very long time before the head is fixed. If ever. So that makes me think that maybe it's time for this whole operation to move on to someone with more ambition and energy. I never thought it was good when people kept cars locked up they were never going to use again.
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Rich, don't throw in the towel just yet! I sent you an email.
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Buddy, what did the email say? :?
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Bump rattle clatter.......
"Hey, who's out there by that 26 dodge engine?
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I think I need a roadster
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Skunk werks-alpha test
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Skunk werks-alpha test
The banger with a ______ head?
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MoPar........of course
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More to come......should be interesting. Bunch of parts on the way, may the gods of speed forgive what we are about to do to this innocent Edelbrock head........😈
Project 1926 dodge V4 resurrection
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From a long time ago in this thread
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/scan0002.jpg)
Capiche?
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It's a pity the old racing head has been put out to pasture.
But as cool as that would have been - this looks like it's now going to get very, very interesting.
The nice thing about an Edelbrock head is that you can always get another.
I'm fascinated with this approach - make it go . . . make it so . . . :cheers:
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It's a pity the old racing head has been put out to pasture.
But as cool as that would have been - this looks like it's now going to get very, very interesting.
The nice thing about an Edelbrock head is that you can always get another.
I'm fascinated with this approach - make it go . . . make it so . . . :cheers:
I believe the old head ended up with some Dodge fools in MT. :wink:
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It's a pity the old racing head has been put out to pasture.
But as cool as that would have been - this looks like it's now going to get very, very interesting.
The nice thing about an Edelbrock head is that you can always get another.
I'm fascinated with this approach - make it go . . . make it so . . . :cheers:
I believe the old head ended up with some Dodge fools in MT. :wink:
Trent, it all comes back to Merle -
Turn me loose, set me free . . . :wink:
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The Morton & Brett head has turned out to be a jinks as far as I am concerned. I don't know what is going to become of it.
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I am bummed about the Morton & Brett. We had it basically ready to go.
I hope we get the roadster with this engine to the salt. Rich has a lot of trick parts and energy put into the dodge block, I hope the head will top it off right. I think it will be fun to do and fun for everyone to see.
I look forward to posting some pics within the next week or so. Lifters arriving on the 20th, head arriving on the 24th. Rich bought a hilborn fuel injection manifold. I am hoping that by the first weekend of March we will be cutting some edelbrock aluminum🙈🙉🙊🙀😈😯😎
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Having trouble posting
out of the box, stripped down, first blood..........
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mocked up for research and more importantly, motivation!
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You guys are a tough crowd this week.
Rich plans to make some brackets to hold the head during the first round of butcheri.....uhm.......improvements.
Then next weekend we will hopefully perform some horribl.....I mean wonderful modifications with a series of large drills and a 1" endmill. Should be interesting.
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It never ceases to amaze me to what extent Chevrolet parts can be modified to suit a particular purpose. Looking forward to see how this pans out. Best of luck!
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Zenn, that's a really interesting looking project and being brand new aluminum it will be much easier to repair and modify than the old, worn out, cast iron item that you guys were playing with before. Have fun with it. We'll keep an eye on the progress. :-D :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Thanks Peter!
Junkie- It is actually a Chrysler head. We looked into a number of heads based on the spacing between the 1&2/3&4 cylinders and this was the least terrible option. After the next step you will see what I mean so I won't even try to explain. Before the SCTA banned using plates to adapt heads a cast iron head from a Lincoln Y block would have been my choice but.......
The aluminum head allows us to have welding done to the head so I started looking at heads that had the correct cylinder spacing, valve pattern, and were either aluminum or had aftermarket aluminum heads available.
Rich picked up a cast iron head for free and we checked it out, then we contacted everyone involved with the Morton & Brett to make sure it was not going to suddenly out of the blue be ready.
Sadly this is a permanent change of course, it is very unlikely that the Morton and Brett will ever run on this block, even if it gets repaired.....but who knows?
Rich has special pistons for the M & B. When we disassemble the engine he is going to see if the entire top of the piston is solid, if it is his plan is to face them off and use them as opposed to buying new ones.
Actually, I am jumping ahead. Rich is making the brackets for the head this week but we can't drill anything until we disassemble the dodge so we can look from below through the cylinder bores and confirm that the way we have placed the head is truly where we want it to be.
The next step is to do some organizing in Rich's shop, then pull the Dodge out of the roadster.
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I'm guessing that with the distributor running up front, the spacing between 2 and 3 is less than a Ford. And easier to adapt to a late-model head -- right? Are some of the head chambers need to be offset -- or do you plan to chop it between 2 and 3?
(Hopefully don't make me appear too naive with your explanations -- thanx.)
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No, we need to cut the head in half and add a spacer, between 2 & 3. I am not sure if it is less than ford, I looked at heads that had the proper spacing for the equally spaced cylinders. I am sure the same thing could be done on a ford banger.
Stan, bravo if you are naive, who wants to think about this stuff????
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Stan, bravo if you are naive, who wants to think about this stuff????
What would be naïve would be to think you two aren't going to pull it off! :cheers:
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Actually the bore spacing on #2-3 is 4.750. Which is greater than a Ford, I believe. RF
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The whole block is larger than a ford, makes sense the 2/3 spacing is
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As usual I got the thousandths right but missed on the inches. The center bore spacing is really 5.750
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Zenn, Apparently when a guy just glances at the small pictures he draws the wrong conclusion. :roll: I get the jist of whats going on from your other replies. Way cool! Looking forward to the
butchering modifications! I have a special place in my heart for anybody screwing a bunch of parts together that were never meant to be used in the same application!
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Yes, I am very eager to work on this. I couldn't go to Rich's this weekend, I haven't even talked with him.
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We have the motor out of the car now and on the engine stand. There was some water in the oil from the M & B mishap. We pulled the pistons out and strapped the edelbrock head to the block and took a look to make certain we had the head situated right. Once we decided we did, we put center punches in the head bolt holes and marked each half of the head. We plan to mill the head for the new head bolt bosses before we cut it in half. I will try to post a pic soon ofvthevtrash headbsetbupbto machine, I can't reduce the file size on my phone
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Ok, about a months worth of stuff.
First off, here is what happened before the images start. We removed the pistons and rods from the engine and strapped the head in each of its two positions at the front and back of the block and double checked the we liked the placement of the combustion chamber over the cylinder. Also the there was proper ( in our opinions ) valve clearance. Then we installed center punches in the block, placed the head and whumped it with a rawhide hammer. Partly to mark it with the center punches aka the new head bolt boss locations, partly because we sort of dislike it for all the trouble it is probably bound to cause us. Bad head.
Then rich made some tooling plates to support the head on the mill
Here are some pics
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/7D897964-CA02-484A-9E75-CAE59904B872_zpsoripuidw.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/7D897964-CA02-484A-9E75-CAE59904B872_zpsoripuidw.jpg.html)
^Here is the center punch mark, one of them.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/60F17D43-C52C-4E26-9383-FA2697F2C137_zpsteeblvui.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/60F17D43-C52C-4E26-9383-FA2697F2C137_zpsteeblvui.jpg.html)
^Here is the head with the tooling plates bolted on the mill ready to machine
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/58EC6CD4-9860-4967-9193-ACFB265C9CFA_zpsagpkw1l5.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/58EC6CD4-9860-4967-9193-ACFB265C9CFA_zpsagpkw1l5.jpg.html)
^Rich checking on what the hell I am doing with his mill, brushing some chips away
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/88C4EE24-6C66-44DB-86C0-EC6BC93D10C3_zpsoneixlip.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/88C4EE24-6C66-44DB-86C0-EC6BC93D10C3_zpsoneixlip.jpg.html)
^The first boss drilled. It is a 1" DIA hole
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C2BE49AD-D8ED-4E07-A359-CDB4F65C7434_zpsydhb6vp9.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C2BE49AD-D8ED-4E07-A359-CDB4F65C7434_zpsydhb6vp9.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/B00D7ADE-4DA9-4963-96A9-4DB98AA29A9F_zpsb5eip5nw.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/B00D7ADE-4DA9-4963-96A9-4DB98AA29A9F_zpsb5eip5nw.jpg.html)
^Jump forward, bosses tapped into holes, testing fit on block. Front and read of block/head
TO THE BAND SAW!!!! Quickly before we think too much about it!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/7FA29FA3-7B7E-4736-BC5C-B7299EEABDB9_zpsehxnyg9i.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/7FA29FA3-7B7E-4736-BC5C-B7299EEABDB9_zpsehxnyg9i.jpg.html)
^Rich made some custom "T" nuts so we could remove the saws built in vice and clamp the head right to the saw. Here he is removing the vice/guide parts
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/6CDF1C35-EA6D-4F8C-95F5-E67A9F7B2F8E_zpssbdjjubn.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/6CDF1C35-EA6D-4F8C-95F5-E67A9F7B2F8E_zpssbdjjubn.jpg.html)
^Look at this unsuspecting victi....fine piece of future racing equipment
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/431026E0-AFF1-4702-950D-02D7D20B17F7_zpsgdo8eycu.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/431026E0-AFF1-4702-950D-02D7D20B17F7_zpsgdo8eycu.jpg.html)
^Clamped to the saw, starting the cut
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9C86A4A9-9416-42BB-BCD1-82C925B90858_zpsjlydkitb.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9C86A4A9-9416-42BB-BCD1-82C925B90858_zpsjlydkitb.jpg.html)
^Whistle, whistle, tap foot........getting closer
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/E0E79C7C-B4F8-4DCC-B3E4-257A7853A9D6_zpsp6fc3qef.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/E0E79C7C-B4F8-4DCC-B3E4-257A7853A9D6_zpsp6fc3qef.jpg.html)
^Almost there. The observant may notice we had to change the clamp on the back side.....the saw hit it and could cut any deeper. No problem, we used a different clamp and continued
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/2913B8E8-053D-47B5-9CE9-8ED93311705C_zpsl3kqfmq3.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/2913B8E8-053D-47B5-9CE9-8ED93311705C_zpsl3kqfmq3.jpg.html)
^Ta Da!!!!!!!!!
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/ACC30A7C-50CD-4B38-8A8B-67BD65E3AFC3_zps6v1xeizs.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/ACC30A7C-50CD-4B38-8A8B-67BD65E3AFC3_zps6v1xeizs.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9CAF1B24-01F9-4BB2-AD04-7B2B571468F8_zpsqmmdxhya.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9CAF1B24-01F9-4BB2-AD04-7B2B571468F8_zpsqmmdxhya.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/7BC0D838-B87B-4ED6-8210-5786965564D2_zpsnr1nwaqv.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/7BC0D838-B87B-4ED6-8210-5786965564D2_zpsnr1nwaqv.jpg.html)
I stopped and picked up some 6061 bar stock for the spacer and for an adapter/spacer on the intake side. More to come!
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What you guys do with this Dodgenstein is nothing short of delightful! :cheers:
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I like it so far! :cheers:
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Way cool!
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I cant wait to see this run. :cheers: Tony
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I agree with all of the above but the "Dodgenstein" quote is the best. :cheers:
I think it might stick.
Awesome mod. I love it.
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Some chunks of aluminum
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/BA678225-ED1E-487B-A0EB-069C7C8B2EC0_zpsmxrg9rms.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/BA678225-ED1E-487B-A0EB-069C7C8B2EC0_zpsmxrg9rms.jpg.html)
Checking the combustion chamber over the cylinders with studs in the block
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/25F1445E-F6A3-404E-821E-D340C7F5CE62_zpsyfaptkcz.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/25F1445E-F6A3-404E-821E-D340C7F5CE62_zpsyfaptkcz.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9013B164-57FF-49D6-A6A2-E36EFE1AEC2C_zps1qooe4gw.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9013B164-57FF-49D6-A6A2-E36EFE1AEC2C_zps1qooe4gw.jpg.html)
This block will go here when machined properly
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/AC06589F-EC24-4A8B-AED7-5819EB673ABF_zpscqfg1ck2.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/AC06589F-EC24-4A8B-AED7-5819EB673ABF_zpscqfg1ck2.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/7E4DB229-1ED0-4808-B5B2-2E91DFE26F40_zps8xvvxoqg.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/7E4DB229-1ED0-4808-B5B2-2E91DFE26F40_zps8xvvxoqg.jpg.html)
Cutting down the center spacer
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/2A4DD45D-48BD-4391-8F9C-EDA3CA829433_zpsddcg4qn9.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/2A4DD45D-48BD-4391-8F9C-EDA3CA829433_zpsddcg4qn9.jpg.html)
Rich getting a sharp shell cutter ready
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/8E9421D9-6AFC-49C6-94BA-B39FD57F8D4B_zpsqipjlr7z.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/8E9421D9-6AFC-49C6-94BA-B39FD57F8D4B_zpsqipjlr7z.jpg.html)
Random pic of head on block
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/04C89FBA-AAB8-4304-9543-6D6D122C6229_zpsgpuvuwx4.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/04C89FBA-AAB8-4304-9543-6D6D122C6229_zpsgpuvuwx4.jpg.html)
Squaring up the center block
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/8A01CFC0-A303-4715-9AD7-ABA790B4268B_zps21uxfe55.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/8A01CFC0-A303-4715-9AD7-ABA790B4268B_zps21uxfe55.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/A40E9DF7-89D6-4BFB-B0AE-79B1E3614C9A_zpsejxly78v.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/A40E9DF7-89D6-4BFB-B0AE-79B1E3614C9A_zpsejxly78v.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/70903213-6846-4FE2-A1C5-C4A754D42829_zpsk3nszx02.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/70903213-6846-4FE2-A1C5-C4A754D42829_zpsk3nszx02.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/35F74AA0-EFF8-40D2-AF9A-9F8F4F14D2A8_zpsyb4gptig.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/35F74AA0-EFF8-40D2-AF9A-9F8F4F14D2A8_zpsyb4gptig.jpg.html)
It may be hard to see but I cut off some of the extra material with the band saw
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/486A8D75-9E00-490A-BEEA-D0498721A778_zpsrlie5v8w.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/486A8D75-9E00-490A-BEEA-D0498721A778_zpsrlie5v8w.jpg.html)
Done for the day
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/F76868BA-2DB0-439E-8F8A-4EDFE5D282C2_zpskcrkmntb.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/F76868BA-2DB0-439E-8F8A-4EDFE5D282C2_zpskcrkmntb.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/6B77EA49-4B53-405B-87BD-F0A1C6BFB564_zpsou2u2fqk.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/6B77EA49-4B53-405B-87BD-F0A1C6BFB564_zpsou2u2fqk.jpg.html)
Night!
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Awesome man.
Those late nighters are a PITA.
You look bushed and so you should be.
Thanks for the great pics. :cheers:
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We worked in the day, i just posted at night. Rich was feeling under the weather
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Whooee neat neat STUFF :cheers:
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We worked in the day, i just posted at night. Rich was feeling under the weather
I hope he's feeling better.
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Good progress!
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Okay, we weren't able to work on the head for a couple weeks. Today when I showed up at Rich's house I found out he had drilled the holes already.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/D6D077DE-061B-4802-AEA3-B2785924B1F5_zpsqlcoq1md.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/D6D077DE-061B-4802-AEA3-B2785924B1F5_zpsqlcoq1md.jpg.html)
Rich had one of the heads from his bantam truck on his mill so that had to be finished first. Once we put in some helicoils we could mount the center of the head and start machining.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/3F1E447E-89EE-48DC-AA8B-1CDBF33D21BD_zpsuuxxwrcf.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/3F1E447E-89EE-48DC-AA8B-1CDBF33D21BD_zpsuuxxwrcf.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/A0A1FC6B-42B1-4B3A-9928-A8CF4F2BD9B7_zpsdpij2mjt.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/A0A1FC6B-42B1-4B3A-9928-A8CF4F2BD9B7_zpsdpij2mjt.jpg.html)
As you can sort of see, we scribed the profile of the head onto the center piece which needs to be machined. We milled the slight angle which is on the intake side and the angle where the valve cover rails will be.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/5857D777-6F6C-40B8-B903-3313178C97CB_zpsrhuxctii.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/5857D777-6F6C-40B8-B903-3313178C97CB_zpsrhuxctii.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/E1FC6D25-862E-4909-A939-0C64F5B88B85_zpsmlembdlo.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/E1FC6D25-862E-4909-A939-0C64F5B88B85_zpsmlembdlo.jpg.html)
Well I hope that all makes sense. I had to leave, Rich was threatening to finish it by the time I come back.
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That's great engineering and it does make sense.
I love it. :cheers:
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That is going to be amazing :cheers:
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Yes, amazing! And thank you for keeping us informed and educated. :cheers:
Frank.
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Pretty slick! What are you guys doing for a Valve cover?
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They are going to make it look like a FlAT head with Hemi plug tubes sticking straight up of course!! :wink:
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My plan is just to take two 318 valve covers and make one long one. All the excess aluminum spacer will be gone shortly.
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As has been the case with all your work, very impressive.
I have always enjoyed all of your work that was published in BRN :cheers:,
Sum
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beautiful workmanship guys
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I am trying to post pictures of the head with the spacer roughed to size. But this thing says there is already a post with the same file name. No kidding. Now what do I need to do?
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I am trying to post pictures of the head with the spacer roughed to size. But this thing says there is already a post with the same file name. No kidding. Now what do I need to do?
Change the name to your photo file. Most camera software logs the picture file under a series of numbers...all in a similar fashion and that file name has been uploaded somewhere. On a PC and MAC its easy to change file names.
BR
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I did, twice. After resizing the pictures. If you are interested enough look at http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/june-banger-tune-up-and-drive-em.927035/#post-10468003. Ryan makes it easy to post pictures.
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Lets see if I can help?
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Looks great guys!
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Rich, I took a quick scan through the Jalopy Journal site and see what they're using for their forum. I didn't register - so don't know how easy it is to get a photo on it. I did see that the forum software used there is a purchased software. It looks like a couple of hundred dollars - maybe a little bit more - per year. We use SMF (Simple Machines Forum, I think it is) and it's free. That's a good reason to keep using it - until I get some continuing support from a number of Forum members.
I would need to register and spend some time on that forum to see what I think and if it would make changing worthwhile to the majority of Forum members here on landracing.com. But thanks very much for the comment. I'll pass it along to Bob Clancy to get some of his input, too.
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Some days i can post pictures just fine. Some days not. Looks like other people can do it. Could be the problem is not on your end.
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Rich, I took a quick scan through the Jalopy Journal site and see what they're using for their forum. I didn't register - so don't know how easy it is to get a photo on it. I did see that the forum software used there is a purchased software. It looks like a couple of hundred dollars - maybe a little bit more - per year. We use SMF (Simple Machines Forum, I think it is) and it's free. That's a good reason to keep using it - until I get some continuing support from a number of Forum members.
I would need to register and spend some time on that forum to see what I think and if it would make changing worthwhile to the majority of Forum members here on landracing.com. But thanks very much for the comment. I'll pass it along to Bob Clancy to get some of his input, too.
Slim, trust me when I say that Ryan has hot-rodded that code beyond what most web designers can even comprehend. This format is fine for how we use it.
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You can't say I'm a quitter. This should be a picture of the inside of the spacer. i wanted to let water flow through it and mostly reduce the mass to hopefully make welding it easier and heat expansion more like the head it's welded to. No holes where the head bolts go.----Hooray. I did it right. It's posted.
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Nice work Rich! (both milling and posting) :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Thanks Rich :cheers:
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Rich, I guess I only have one question.
You clearly have first rate machining skills.
And while I like what you're doing here, I'm thinking you might just be better off building your own head out of a billet.
Have you ever given that any thought?
Cheers!
:cheers:
Chris
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I would have been perfectly happy just converting the motor back to a flathead or giving up entirely. Zenon showed up with this aluminum 318 head and insisted this was a good idea. So what could I do? I made my own flathead for the 32 Plymouth engine. lot of chips.
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I somehow think that Zenon didn't find much resistance. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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Well, actually, I was thinking you could knock out an 8 port variant based on the Morton and Brett head. Make it 2 piece.
Maybe what you're doing is easier, and I'm certain it will produce decent power. But I know that with the head I'm stuck working with, if I had your chops, I'd be starting with a clean sheet of paper and a billet.
I've no doubt you'll make this work - but there are advantages regarding airflow that can be had by building the head to your own specs, rather than settling for the compromises of a head originally set up for a V-8.
There you go - the project after this one! :cheers:
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Rich, I guess I only have one question.
You clearly have first rate machining skills.
And while I like what you're doing here, I'm thinking you might just be better off building your own head out of a billet.
Have you ever given that any thought?
Cheers!
:cheers:
The trouble with billet is machining water jackets. Rich might be able to run without water jackets on fuel but would have trouble cooling on gas.
Not sure if Rich is running fuel or gas. GOT lazy looking up :-D
JL222
Chris
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I find the new Hamburgler site not so friendly as before. I've sworn off it.
Here's a "start-from-scratch" (kinda) Model A head from Roy Creel. I'm sure Rich knows more about it than the very little I do.
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Does anyone know how long Creel has been working on this?
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I find the new Hamburgler site not so friendly as before. I've sworn off it.
Here's a "start-from-scratch" (kinda) Model A head from Roy Creel. I'm sure Rich knows more about it than the very little I do.
Stan, the new layout is pretty easy. I would be happy to walk you through any questions you may have :cheers:
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Somewhere I've got the history behind it. When I get back from vacation I'll see if I can post it. It was years.
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Yes, somehow this is all my fault.
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Zenon is taking a little time away from the thing this week. So while he wasn't looking I made a new trick header flange. It's a new theory of mine concerning controlled back pressure. It should also hold the head in line when it's bolted to the spare block Roy Creel gave me. Hopefully soon after the July tune up meet it will get to a welder.
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Here are some pics. The head is off to the welder.
These two pictures show some trick spacers Rich made. The block Rich built for the M&B head has 1/2 head studs which Rich installed. The original head studs for the dodge block are 7/16. Since we are using Rich's extra block as a "jig" while the head is tacked and welded on one side, We had to have the head locate properly on the 7/16 studs. Here are the pics.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/76BF9C43-B181-45CA-928F-ABDC28FAD20E_zps1ml29vxz.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/76BF9C43-B181-45CA-928F-ABDC28FAD20E_zps1ml29vxz.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/AF519910-8202-494A-8335-44B18B3C226A_zps34fdddp7.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/AF519910-8202-494A-8335-44B18B3C226A_zps34fdddp7.jpg.html)
We bolted the three parts of the head to the extra block
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/E9E59B72-32A3-45FE-947D-55EE67A2BC87_zps3vgz0d1f.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/E9E59B72-32A3-45FE-947D-55EE67A2BC87_zps3vgz0d1f.jpg.html)
Rich is bolting on his exhaust flange alignment "jig"
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4AB409AC-F978-4D96-B225-23A4116553EA_zpsuujeuio5.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4AB409AC-F978-4D96-B225-23A4116553EA_zpsuujeuio5.jpg.html)
And off to the welder
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4A6DE400-11E4-4FAA-A28E-6707769D038F_zpsrsnbdnbw.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4A6DE400-11E4-4FAA-A28E-6707769D038F_zpsrsnbdnbw.jpg.html)
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Almost forgot, a close up of the spacer where the two halves of the head meet
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/684B894D-FE05-430A-A781-4CD749F9419E_zpse7iw4n6u.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/684B894D-FE05-430A-A781-4CD749F9419E_zpse7iw4n6u.jpg.html)
The head may be welded by Friday.
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Awesome mod. :cheers: :cheers:
Thanks for the photos.
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This is what it looks like these days. Needs a little more welding and a bunch more welding.
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Wow, I wonder how many amps it took to weld it.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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It's not really that thick. Your just welding the water jacket mostly.
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From reply #423:
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6487.0;attach=46807;image)
Mike
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I can only imagine how that goes... weld, weld, weld, pressure test, weld, weld, weld...
Looking good guys! That little motor should breathe quite a bit better after all of this. Nice work as well.
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With proper prep and preheat, one weld one pressure test. No leaks. Now another try at attaching pictures. All right. I shrunk the pictures. I changed the name. This says there is already a file with this name. I don't think so.
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Very nice Rich!
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Good to hear there's no leaks. :cheers: I've no concept of welding aluminum, but it looks like the head is turning out great.
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Still trying. I got the pictures in. It was harder than cutting the head.
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Just beautiful Rich
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I have to agree. Really looking forward to the rest of the mods. Rocker Arm geometry, manifolding, ignition, and so on. Neat stuff, Rich.....
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Some pictures from today
We machined the areas around five of the head bolt holes to make sure they were flat. Some of the holes had to have a drill run through again to make certain they were clear of weld. Then we tried it on the block.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/78B5441B-7A78-4D22-AE9E-4F387597CD08_zpsqjmshudh.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/78B5441B-7A78-4D22-AE9E-4F387597CD08_zpsqjmshudh.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/8E883621-D2C2-4519-969E-599A6666FB99_zpswaxmhfp0.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/8E883621-D2C2-4519-969E-599A6666FB99_zpswaxmhfp0.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/1D778ED1-CFD5-45D3-A9F1-B98F8DA129D8_zpskztog5ky.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/1D778ED1-CFD5-45D3-A9F1-B98F8DA129D8_zpskztog5ky.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/8042FBB0-E756-42FB-9CDB-D299F676930F_zpsigdqpdmg.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/8042FBB0-E756-42FB-9CDB-D299F676930F_zpsigdqpdmg.jpg.html)
Once we knew the head fit again, we started on the spacer for the intake side. It is going to adapt the the fuel injection intake and cover up the part of the block the head doesn't cover.
First we made a pattern off the head
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9B39A0BB-04B2-4C29-A3EA-C56F9815DAB3_zpslzfdcwac.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9B39A0BB-04B2-4C29-A3EA-C56F9815DAB3_zpslzfdcwac.jpg.html)
Rich blued the aluminum selected for the job at hand.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/84A675A4-358D-4E75-9F6A-1B13BCEA988C_zpshlu2mgcv.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/84A675A4-358D-4E75-9F6A-1B13BCEA988C_zpshlu2mgcv.jpg.html)
Then to the mill
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/575EDBEB-532C-43DF-95FE-7256D31E8C9F_zps9g4vnals.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/575EDBEB-532C-43DF-95FE-7256D31E8C9F_zps9g4vnals.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/DF351FAC-DC1F-41EC-B947-E657E5EAAFE0_zpsuajqzssy.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/DF351FAC-DC1F-41EC-B947-E657E5EAAFE0_zpsuajqzssy.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/2AD41907-9709-4C7B-B953-31C68FED194A_zpsnn60i2vt.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/2AD41907-9709-4C7B-B953-31C68FED194A_zpsnn60i2vt.jpg.html)
We drilled some 7/8" holes and that was it for the day. Rich gets tired watching me fumble around at his mill so he needed me to stop.
I suspect if he will post some pics later this week.
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wow what great STUFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
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When someone says they built an engine, refer them to this diary
and make certain that have the real concept.
Great work fellows.
FREUD
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When someone says they built an engine, refer them to this diary
Glenn, few will tread here - the new frontier of the Ozone Rangers.
Fewer will succeed.
But Rich has been here before, come back with reconnaissance, and signed on for another tour.
This is going to work.
And probably pretty damned well.
:cheers:
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Very few Chris. I am lucky to have someone like Rich nearby. Metal wizards they are!@
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Would we call this project a head job?
FREUD
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Jeez, I hope there's no plans for a supercharger. :mrgreen:
Mike
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Jeez, I hope there's no plans for a supercharger. :mrgreen:
Mike
Reminds me of the time my luddite boss at the rod shop got on our then new internet, typed in "blowers" and hit the I AM FEELING LUCKY tab...................took myself and a pal 3 hours to take all the Russian and Eastern European drivers and spyware off the computer! Boy did he get to see some things before he finally unplugged everything!
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And this is the idea of what the spacer plate will look like. Needs more chips out of it.
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I have to agree. Really looking forward to the rest of the mods. Rocker Arm geometry, manifolding, ignition, and so on. Neat stuff, Rich.....
Rich has a Hilborn injection unit for a Chrysler race head.....we think. It will be modified slightly to work on the head. The ignition is a Rotophaze distributor that Rich already has from when he started this project. The Edelbrock head uses SBC roller rockers, we will need to clearance some of the push rod holes, but I already have the roller rockers. The head was chosen because the cylinder spacing and the location of pushrods and head bolt holes was basically as perfect as you could hope from a head designed for an engine made probably 50 years after the 26 dodge. It is a Chrysler magnum head. We need lots of machine work, pistons, and pushrods. We will need to make the exhaust headers. But, then we put the engine back in the car and try to fire it. Easy, just lots of time and money.
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Just a thought - and bear in mind, this is from a guy who was fighting for every last CFM of air I could find.
I understand the need for the plate, I would consider the effect it might have on airflow on the short side radius going into the combustion chamber. Perhaps raising the slot in the plate might give you better flow. I'd look at the Edlebrock manifolds that work well with this head, and try to emulate the flow pattern - you won't be far off.
But on the other hand, this thing would take a major mistake to choke it off, and I don't see you two making major mistakes. :cheers:
Stellar workmanship.
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Fitting under that hood is also a concern. So the extension ports flow down about 5 degrees to meet the head. The Edlebrock intake ports are nothing to write home about. CNC milled for the first 3/16 maybe. But the stock Dodge Bros. only had one intake port and that was on the opposite side from the valves. So it's got to be an improvement.
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Here is today's progress. We worked on drilling the mounting holes for the intake adapter plate.
First Rich marked off where the head bolts were in relation to the ports with red tape
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C8B176B8-8EEB-4804-B79B-49E64269C8E4_zpsk4yll8ce.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C8B176B8-8EEB-4804-B79B-49E64269C8E4_zpsk4yll8ce.jpg.html)
Then after some discussion we marked and drilled the holes.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/DC8C76C3-6B27-4F8B-9972-908F12E0512E_zpst1y3br1q.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/DC8C76C3-6B27-4F8B-9972-908F12E0512E_zpst1y3br1q.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4FE03C96-B4A3-4F0C-81E2-EAB294326DEA_zpsunu12kdl.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4FE03C96-B4A3-4F0C-81E2-EAB294326DEA_zpsunu12kdl.jpg.html)
Rich plans on drilling and tapping the holes in the head tomorrow. We actually drilled the holes in the plate with a #7 drill so the holes in the plate can "guide" the drill for the holes in the head. Once the head is drilled the holes in the plate will be opened up so the 1/4-20 cap screws will fit.
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This is absolutely beautiful. I'm glad you didn't quit.
Art and ingenuity in metal.
FREUD
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"Rich plans on drilling and tapping the holes in the head tomorrow" This is not quite true. Today I plan to do wash and begin to load up for SpeedWeek Two. Again. Zenon bought that head and if anybody is drilling holes in it I think it should be him. Thanks FREUD for the kind words.
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Rich, You are an example of Old School that has taken the benefits from New School and
produced an excellent example of Modern Hotrodding. I just want to hear that puppy
growl. I also hope that packing for Speed Week 2 isn't a waste of time. I've been there
5 times this year and even with an offer of a great ride I won't be there for this last
gasp attempt at convincing Mother Nature that we deserve one last go.
FREUD
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Yeah, have a great trip Rich. Hopefully a dry one for everyone.
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Update
Rich drilled the mount holes for the intake setup and did a slick job, as usual, mating the ports to the intake.
We set the adapter plate on the head and clamped it down. Then drilled and tapped one hole at each end of the plate so we could screw it on and drill the rest. As I said before we had drilled the plate with a #7 drill so we could us it as a guide of sorts for drilling the head.
Here are some pics
First two holes drilled and tapped
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4E8F6A41-B4BF-4613-87C8-7D5DB8634EE0_zpswvtopode.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4E8F6A41-B4BF-4613-87C8-7D5DB8634EE0_zpswvtopode.jpg.html)
Mounting plate to drill the rest of the holes
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C80603F4-1F6B-4CC4-AE85-CB607CA0E22D_zpscjwzahjh.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C80603F4-1F6B-4CC4-AE85-CB607CA0E22D_zpscjwzahjh.jpg.html)
Here is a close up of Rich's port matching. He set the plate up and milled the outside of each port at a 17deg angle so the intake transitions to the ports on the head
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C5410B23-1FE8-466A-A920-93D430F9F987_zpsb9b24vvf.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C5410B23-1FE8-466A-A920-93D430F9F987_zpsb9b24vvf.jpg.html)
More detail of the plate, now fully bolted on. The fitting is the coolant inlet for the head
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/CB90EC6A-1992-4786-978F-ABCF6B0E92A3_zpspnqqq4qk.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/CB90EC6A-1992-4786-978F-ABCF6B0E92A3_zpspnqqq4qk.jpg.html)
Lastly, a little teaser of the intake bolted on. You can see the red tape? That is a head bolt location. The intake will be cut in half to work and the section in the middle will be left long so we can have and extra mounting bolt off the head stud for strength.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/D727EA77-C64C-4D9C-9461-EBDB9729312A_zpsoaddflnn.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/D727EA77-C64C-4D9C-9461-EBDB9729312A_zpsoaddflnn.jpg.html)
Few more, money shots.....so to speak
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/3BC9502B-DFB9-484E-B2F4-4B479E7FD582_zps3qrbffn3.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/3BC9502B-DFB9-484E-B2F4-4B479E7FD582_zps3qrbffn3.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/0D847F8C-3280-41F7-8A07-80859F956C9D_zps01iqzgn6.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/0D847F8C-3280-41F7-8A07-80859F956C9D_zps01iqzgn6.jpg.html)
Here is another part Rich got done. He wanted to make sure you all know that the little spacer in the center is made from material left over from when he made the headers for his V8 Packard project
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/6A6371C9-79CB-47E1-A037-238B527F52A3_zps57bwioq6.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/6A6371C9-79CB-47E1-A037-238B527F52A3_zps57bwioq6.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/146DBBC6-E18D-42B1-A752-144ED44F9F8E_zpsx9tzolgf.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/146DBBC6-E18D-42B1-A752-144ED44F9F8E_zpsx9tzolgf.jpg.html)
That is all for now! Enjoy!
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looking at these pictures i think I put the water inlet on the wrong end.
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The inlet is on the front right side rich, where the old one was. Did you want it on the exhaust side? Or in the rear of the plate?
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Rear
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Ooppps :-o
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In the airplane business this would call for an "Engineering Variation Authority" to be generated. At my house it just gets an "Oh Dodge" and another hole.
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lol :cheers:
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Hopefully this will post a picture of what it looks like with the spacer bolted on, faced off flush with the deck surface and drilled for the head bolts. Looks like there is plenty of material for injector hold down studs to me. I am going to have to take some time off to get rewired, so there will not be much progress for a while.
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In the airplane business this would call for an "Engineering Variation Authority" to be generated. At my house it just gets an "Oh Dodge" and another hole.
At the old lazy L we called it a "TRDR" tooling request for a drawing revision.
It's looking good Rich, good luck on whatever is getting the rewire
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We welded the exhaust flange for the headers today. I didn't take any pictures.
Good luck Rich! Hope your procedure goes perfect on Monday.
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Not as much as I do.
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We a few weeks off while Rich upgraded his electrical system
We started with the intake
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/94F0D147-29FD-4A77-90BD-1248F91C57E0_zpsdfmhe3su.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/94F0D147-29FD-4A77-90BD-1248F91C57E0_zpsdfmhe3su.jpg.html)
Here we go again cutting up perfectly good speed parts
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/AFDB3C0B-5491-4364-88CF-46BEC96AC4AE_zps64vna8ko.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/AFDB3C0B-5491-4364-88CF-46BEC96AC4AE_zps64vna8ko.jpg.html)
Let's take a look
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/EB922FAE-6BA9-4EFA-A5A4-77146DE8951D_zpsqlalu2su.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/EB922FAE-6BA9-4EFA-A5A4-77146DE8951D_zpsqlalu2su.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/5FBD12DA-4A00-4467-AA84-B94C24454243_zps7dfma4pe.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/5FBD12DA-4A00-4467-AA84-B94C24454243_zps7dfma4pe.jpg.html)
We also worked on making some small washers that lock the intakes in place, and Rich turned down those long hex nuts so they fit into the holes on the intakes.
Rich also brazed some short pieces of tubing into the header flange to start off the header tubes. I thought I took a pic but apparently I didn't. We made some extra clearance for two of the header bolts using heat and bangy type objects until it was easy to get the bolt in. Very therapeutic.
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... using heat and bangy type objects...
Yeah, that can be good therapy! :-D
Save me searching back- what are the injectors from?
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They are made for the MoPar W9 cylinder heads that go on MoPar sprint car engines. And such. These are the 18 bolt heads. The ports are .300 wider than the 340-360 heads. If you want to buy the other half of these injectors, I would very much like to sell them. Lite weight mag casting. 2.5 butterflies. Almost new.
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Rich, the mod you're busy on is an inspiration.
Wish I lived closer?. Thanks for making me believe that all things are possible. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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It`s still a bit far away from Rich, Mike, but the Spare Bedroom in our little House is always open to you....
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In case there is widespread interest in buying the extra half of the injector casting I measured the ports at 1.400 wide by 2.150 tall. I was using the Ebay posting for the throttle plate bore and by actual measurement they are 2 5/8. Should be enough air for a 26 dodge.
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It`s still a bit far away from Rich, Mike, but the Spare Bedroom in our little House is always open to you....
Thanks Paul, it is on my bucket list. :cheers:
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Zenon has posted lots of pictures of the top, and I don't remember any of the bottom. So here is one to make the Ford guys jealous.
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You're so cruel!
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If you "GOT it", flaunt it :-D :-D
Ron
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Henry wasn't the only one who looked to save money on studs and nuts . . . BMC also saved money on bearings with the A series well into the 1980s -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5411_zps6b36e949.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5411_zps6b36e949.jpg.html)
The Dodge bottom end looks remarkably solid in comparison to either an early Ford or the Grenade.
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Nice looking crank. Who made it?
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Mine was made by Rody in Plymouth, Michigan - Rich, who made yours?
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Crower
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Rich finished the special washers for the intake during the week.
Today we worked on the intake spacer.
We rounded some of the edges to make it look racey.
Then we set the valve cover on the head and made some measurements for a notch we need to put in the spacer for clearance when the cover is in place
I am a little disappointed with the pics I took but oh well
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/ED4DB67A-C2A7-4895-9C25-20E4D48BCD76_zpsuoz5blvs.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/ED4DB67A-C2A7-4895-9C25-20E4D48BCD76_zpsuoz5blvs.jpg.html)
We ended up cutting one of the valve covers to make sure it was sitting flat
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/87B2141B-1EC1-4D8E-85BE-1C4498E28EEE_zpsc8skfm6b.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/87B2141B-1EC1-4D8E-85BE-1C4498E28EEE_zpsc8skfm6b.jpg.html)
Here is the spacer with the notch cut
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/09077C0D-5330-447B-B797-D382349987DA_zpsbwm50pr5.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/09077C0D-5330-447B-B797-D382349987DA_zpsbwm50pr5.jpg.html)
Of course we realized that we have the wrong valve cover at the end of the day but....Rich thinks we can make it work and I concur.
Lots of details to work out as we continue
Rich wants to weld up the back of these slots and have the head resurfaced. If you look close you can see the water jacket peaking through.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/A2083965-C906-43D8-AEA4-61621A223390_zpsgft3dj1i.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/A2083965-C906-43D8-AEA4-61621A223390_zpsgft3dj1i.jpg.html)
Have a good week
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I'm curious why the main caps aren't "taller"? What diameter are the crank's main journals? It appears that the caps can't be very thick (radially) at the center, are they? There seems to be plenty of room to fit taller caps. Just sayin'... I'd prefer more cap stiffness.
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The caps are .900 at the center, which I consider to be more than sufficient.
By the way Jack. What kind of banger are you building that a 2.920 Sq. In. port is to small for?
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Hope You don't mind.
FREUD
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... What kind of banger are you building that a 2.920 Sq. In. port is to small for?...
A blown-fuel 'F' engine, 182 c.i., shooting for 725 HP. Probably will search for an old Hilborn 4-port, with four 3" diameter butterflies.
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I could have bought a Dodge !!!!!
Watch this and see why. Gotta be a 4 cyl.
Oilfield Dodge http://www.youtube.com/embed/nq2jY1trxqg?rel=0
FREUD
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A brand new Dodge Ram 4x4 would have a tough time with that route. I always wondered why old cars always had flat roofs, now I know
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Freud, I'll bet Rich built the engine for that old Dodge!
Rex
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That looks like some place in Montana to me.
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Could be. The mud looks familiar. Sort of like the road to my house.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I'm looking at the camber and alignment on the right front in the first few scenes, and I'm wondering how they drove the thing! :-o
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This is more or less the linkage for mud bogs
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I'm looking at the camber and alignment on the right front in the first few scenes, and I'm wondering how they drove the thing! :-o
It's amazing what a person can do if they don't know any better. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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I use to backpack up into the mountains in Wyoming and would see cars way back up in there where you couldn't imagine how they ever got there. Now I know how they got there,
Sumner
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I use to backpack up into the mountains in Wyoming and would see cars way back up in there where you couldn't imagine how they ever got there. Now I know how they got there,
Sumner
The Wind River Range, Sum?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I use to backpack up into the mountains in Wyoming and would see cars way back up in there where you couldn't imagine how they ever got there. Now I know how they got there,
Sumner
The Wind River Range, Sum?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
No, the Big Horns, but I've been in the Wind River Range. I know someone who bought a Model A in the 50's in Minnesota and they said you could drive it about anywhere. With the ground clearance over downed trees and such.
I lived out in the country in northern Wyoming on a dirt road the county rarely did much too and had a '68 Chevy van. I remember once the mud was so bad I chained the van up the last 1/2 mile to the house and there was so much clay on the front wheels they just stopped turning and were like skies. Made it home barely. Don't miss that or the snow drifts where you would abandon your vehicle and walk the rest of the way home,
Sumner
Sumner
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Thread hijack--
Yes, the weather in Wyoming can be extreme!
The Wind River Range is a beautiful place to hike & climb. It is not over run with people since it is not easily accessible by car. Here is one picture of yours truly from long ago.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Enough snow. I'm from California. If it snows here I'm calling 911. But I do have a picture of taping for Hilborn nozzles. These throttle bodies were for down nozzles.
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Rich;
What is the thread on Hilborn nozzles-- 1/8 NPT?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Yes 1/8 NPT or 1/2-20 if you get the straight thread type. I am lucky that the casting i amusing is about 5/16 thick where I drilled it. Plenty of bite for 1/8 NPT.
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Thanks, Rich- that was the info that I was looking for.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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We cut and welded the valve covers today
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/DE43639E-C5E0-4B8D-A5F6-03951DDAF762_zpsilq1tvlz.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/DE43639E-C5E0-4B8D-A5F6-03951DDAF762_zpsilq1tvlz.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/097BA5ED-CBA9-48E6-96FF-6644FE64837A_zpswuykhadr.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/097BA5ED-CBA9-48E6-96FF-6644FE64837A_zpswuykhadr.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C6406C9C-DDB7-4A33-BB57-D1C6C28869A0_zpsqycl4rfx.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/C6406C9C-DDB7-4A33-BB57-D1C6C28869A0_zpsqycl4rfx.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/65AE656C-81F1-479D-BB06-E0D974D7A57F_zpskkujtywo.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/65AE656C-81F1-479D-BB06-E0D974D7A57F_zpskkujtywo.jpg.html)
In the picture you can see that Rich brazed on the tubes to weld the headers to.
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Every time I look at this one, I just get a big smile on my face.
Press on, boys! :cheers:
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It has been a while since we posted, at least on this thread.
Rich posted the following under EFI questions a couple weeks ago
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,14831.30.html
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/72D6AEF3-AB3B-455B-AEEB-A99F3B113232_zps2cozedye.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/72D6AEF3-AB3B-455B-AEEB-A99F3B113232_zps2cozedye.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9CEA090A-E746-4B95-877A-52EA290A0934_zpsuazdlca7.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/9CEA090A-E746-4B95-877A-52EA290A0934_zpsuazdlca7.jpg.html)
Rich made those aluminum inserts on his lathe using a corner radius tool from his mill to cut the radiused throats in three cuts. Pretty cool.
In other fronts, two months ago Rich noticed the head cracking where the spacing plate was welded in. I took it and had some friends if mine weld it. They did a great job but it took a while for me to co-ordinate it. Pics.......
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/BCD4D17E-3CCA-42E0-A4D9-B9878BBBB643_zpsswizs82m.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/BCD4D17E-3CCA-42E0-A4D9-B9878BBBB643_zpsswizs82m.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/D28DD8DA-ABEF-488D-8F72-7891C5B7EE89_zpsu9r1yqgs.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/D28DD8DA-ABEF-488D-8F72-7891C5B7EE89_zpsu9r1yqgs.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4CC2EE9F-BFA6-47F8-A42B-34821ACBFDB9_zps3qiguz2t.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/4CC2EE9F-BFA6-47F8-A42B-34821ACBFDB9_zps3qiguz2t.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/219C8432-03C6-4622-9BE5-3C02A47138F4_zpsuryxsrka.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/219C8432-03C6-4622-9BE5-3C02A47138F4_zpsuryxsrka.jpg.html)
After the weld repair, we had some light machining to go over. I actually took it to a local machine shop to mill the exhaust flange mounting area, and Rich and I cleaned up the header bolt bungs that received a little touch up
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The next step after the head was back was to check the valve clearance with the Pistons and take a look at how the pushrods line up. This was two weeks ago.
We put in the valves on number 1, using springs from an inline 6 that space the rocker arms, instead of the actual valve springs.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/FBC8AE29-F205-4950-87E6-8900570A4BC4_zps0o2mfsxa.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/FBC8AE29-F205-4950-87E6-8900570A4BC4_zps0o2mfsxa.jpg.html)
We put on a head gasket Rich made for a possible flat head version of the dodge.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/52C91F2C-E61C-43B0-9849-3F6DC87E0810_zps35asawap.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/52C91F2C-E61C-43B0-9849-3F6DC87E0810_zps35asawap.jpg.html)
Rich removed the lifter cover.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/FA427082-EE64-4228-8CDC-9A73CACEF2B8_zps8gmzefer.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/FA427082-EE64-4228-8CDC-9A73CACEF2B8_zps8gmzefer.jpg.html)
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Just awesome. You guys inspire me. :cheers:
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Glad to see you caught the leaks early.
It's never been done before, but your thoroughness on this project tells me it's going to succeed. :cheers:
Target date to get it up and running?
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So two Saturday's ago we set the head on and checked the valve train geometry
Here are the push rod clearance holes as machined from Edelbrock
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/410FBFE9-374F-4093-8858-829D57972C43_zpsklbuovjt.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/410FBFE9-374F-4093-8858-829D57972C43_zpsklbuovjt.jpg.html)
We knew we were going to need to open up the push rod holes.
But here is where I stopped taking pics that weekend. We clearances the holes to .625. We still had some rubbing and the hardware for the plugs Rich had made for the stock exhaust ports in the block was also in the way. We finished off the day slightly discouraged. When I got home Rich had sent an e-mail stating there were issues with the exhaust valve hitting the piston, and since the Pistons were turned down already, there is no more material for valve pockets. That meant new Pistons would be needed, custom of course........
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Fast forward to this weekend.
We put the head back on and took a look again
The exhaust valve is not hitting the piston-positive.
I rechecked the valve train geometry, and marked where additional clearance is required
Here are shots from Sunday, 4/19
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/BA461704-65AE-46E1-B171-4FDD8725BDE4_zpsfct4hgrm.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/BA461704-65AE-46E1-B171-4FDD8725BDE4_zpsfct4hgrm.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/27C2A9C2-1C22-4E0E-AE73-D0F1E0DFC230_zpskvgh6xrb.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/27C2A9C2-1C22-4E0E-AE73-D0F1E0DFC230_zpskvgh6xrb.jpg.html)
After this fine butchery........oh, I mean precision machining. The pushrods are fitting much better, the pushrods guides will need to be cut and re welded to make them wider. I popped through to the water jacket in one spot, that will get a JB Weld treatment.
Here are shots of the valves in place, the misalignment is cause by the push rod guides, which will be rectified when the custom push rods arrive.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/F2D12BEB-BD07-41D1-BE3D-6FD4B683B552_zpsaobjztom.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/F2D12BEB-BD07-41D1-BE3D-6FD4B683B552_zpsaobjztom.jpg.html)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn70/zenndog/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/A157F2D4-91B7-4DEC-A43D-70A92995E397_zpsj4dnkhxg.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/user/zenndog/media/1926%20Dodge%20Morton%20and%20Brett%20head/A157F2D4-91B7-4DEC-A43D-70A92995E397_zpsj4dnkhxg.jpg.html)
There is one intake valve that rubs the cylinder wall. All the intake valves will get about .02" shaved off the OD of the valve head.
That is it for now. Up to date.
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Hi Rich,
What ever happened with this project?
Jim
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Zenon, the guy who owned the aluminum head, took it home to weld the valve cover and never came back. I had surgery that slowed me even more last new years eve. I have spoken to Zenon a few times, but I guess he lost interest.
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Get us his phone number, and we'll bullyrag him until it's finished! :wink:
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Actually I think I am done with this. I listed the roadster for sale here and if somebody needs a 26 Dodge short block, make offer.
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The tenacity that was exhibited during this build was nothing short of impressive.
It makes me sad that after all of the labor and money invested in this unique build it will end unfinished.
Regardless, it was fun to be along for the ride.
Thanks, Don
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Rich, you have a PM
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Rich is still working on this project, and just so everybody knows, guys like Rich are what hot rodding and Bonneville are supposed to be about. Rich embodies hot rodding.
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:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Any new updates to add?
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Believe i sold the roadster and engine. I am waiting for the guy to come get it right now.
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Ok, from Zenndog's last post he stated you were still working on it. You always have very cool build threads, i'm ready for you to start another one. :-D
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I don't see any new projects in my future. I would have liked to finish this one. But that is not going to happen. Thanks for the kind words.