Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: RWisner on May 24, 2009, 11:31:40 AM
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I have started this tread at the request of members in the El Mirage chat since a few of us have tread jacked there chat and got way of topic. Here is the link for those ot up to speed on the discussion http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5971.105.html. I figured since the rules in question were SCTA then what better place to put a rule disscussion.
We just do not want to build our truck TO THE RULES and then be protested against when we show up at the salt. If we do not clear this up our speak up then when we show up to run everyone will say You can't run a S-10 any higher than a C engine in Diesel class. That is how the rule is written for GAS CLASS ONLY not diesel. So with that you read on at your own accord as strong opinions may be voiced
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the only problem i see there big boy is what computer code are ya planning to use?......
kent
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Thats the very reason that SCTA has a rule and regulation section on their web site.
www.scta-bni.org located on the lower left side of the page. They in 99% of the cases will only give a official answer from them. Landracing is for general talk and directions to the right people in the racing venues. Many things are answered but they have the final answer to the rules.
You can also submit a rule change request at the same site using their form.
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It is the same engine mangement computer that Curtis is running in the Goodfellow streamliner and has been using in his other race programs his company is involved in and costumer one off builds.
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vehicle data codes page 174 175 176 willie buchta
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Thats the very reason that SCTA has a rule and regulation section on their web site.
www.scta-bni.org located on the lower left side of the page. They in 99% of the cases will only give a official answer from them. Landracing is for general talk and directions to the right people in the racing venues. Many things are answered but they have the final answer to the rules.
You can also submit a rule change request at the same site using their form.
Glen
We are not trying to change the rules for Diesel Truck class as the sit right now we are Legal to run. Curtis, Steve and I are mearly trying to correct misinterpritations by Pat and his own wording of the rules. Curtis has been in contact with SCTA and got the green light that his S-10 with a B Diesel Engine was legal to run for a record. This is not the first time this rule interpritation has come up between us and Pat was corrected by several other members of how the rule is written. If someone comes on here and states a rule incorrectly and no one corrects him, then when you get to the salt start going through tech and this individual comes by and starts to protest you running in his class, that in turn may cast a cloud over your head and we do not want that people thinking we are playing in gray areas of the rules
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Let's confuse the issue even more -- Look at Rule 2.B, next to the last paragraph.
(I've even forgot what the question is.)
Bu I was told tha's why the one entry runs Blown (Diesel) Street Roadster.
News to me.
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Glad you brought up Diesel Street Roadster.
My buddy has an AUDI turbo-diesel out of a wreck and we were thinking of building a '27 T for H Diesel Street Roadster class.
Because it's a sidewinder, can we put it in the turtle deck?
It'd be a natural, the half-shafts, hubs and brakes would probably line right up back there!
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Sorry, you guys misunderstood.
-like Stan Back alluded to
H Blown Diesel STREET Roadster.
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And people make fun of the motorcycle classes. :-)
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Slopoke --
You be wrong (and I would have been, too).
Got the clarification from the top guy. Read the rule -- I never had.
And IB -- I don't think it'll fit under the deck lid without modifying the body panel -- and there could be a few other reasons, too.
Stan
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Maybe a roadster-pickup then.
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I think if the rules people want a production pickup class then let's make it production as produced by the manufacture. No modifications other than safety equipment. That would really limit what could and could not be done and also cause the tech's to know and understand how each and every model was built. Sorry but I do not see how that's ever going to happen!
If Pat wants a production pickup class then that what he should have built, as his truck is far from how it cam from the factory, so other than a production size body that's all he has.
Pat ran on an open record so he like anyone else that has run on an open record sets the first record. After that all anyone needs to do is follow the rules and go break it, after all that's what has been going on for years at the salt! Trying to get the rules changed to protect his effort is just a bad way to go about it.
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Steve if you want people to listen to you maybe you should leave Pats' name out of every post you make. Leave you message how ever you want, and make your plea. This site is not a pizzing contest. :-D Troy
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Steve,
OK, you win. But I will stick to the rulebook, no personal jabs on my part.
There are Production Pickup classes. They do not allow supercharging.
The rulebooks can be purchased at www.scta-bni.org. If you would like, stop by my work at 310 South Maple #F, in Corona, and I will supply you with one.
pg 82 - 5.F.4 Diesel Truck -/DT
"This class is intended to represent typical diesel pickup trucks..."
The first line is one that causes debate. There are Gasoline Full Sized Pickups, and Gasoline Mid/Mini Pickups, and Diesel Pickup Trucks. Are they all identical and equivalent? Diesel pickups are a subset of Pickups. Not all body styles are available as diesel pickups. There are no "sport truck" bodies with diesels. I contend a Diesel Pickup is a pickup that was available with a diesel engine.
As far as my truck being a production truck; it would fit in the Production Supercharged rules but those are cars-only. I have one single turbocharger in the factory location (same brand), the factory frame, engine, axles, transmission, body, driveline. Internal modifications are permitted in Production.
The informal record for a production diesel pickup was held by Greg Hogue's Project X Dodge at Maxton at 161? mph. Bill Heath has run 155? mph at Bonneville with full sized 6.5 Chevrolet Diesel. There are two more real diesel pickups of similiar designs in process I've heard.
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Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community.
Sorry but there is no slander happening here at all. I've made nothing but truthful statements. There are many, many production diesel sport trucks sold around the world! As a mater of fact a Chevy LUV was made and sold in the US with a diesel! Maybe you should do a little research first! Now as far as production goes on your truck if it came from the factory it was production and any part that did not come from the factory makes it none production or aftermarket. All you have is a body and frame that are production, so its all in how far you want to follow the rules out and at some point you have to stop.
Your still running the GearVendors unit in your driveline, correct? Still running none factory parts in the Allison and the converter isn't factory is it? The motor still running all the factory parts right and the turbo is still a factory VNT? Then that bed cover came as a production part from the factory didn't it? You've modified all these components and that makes them not production any longer.
Like I said before twist it any way you like but your trying to get the rules fit to what your truck is and why would that be?
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Steve what production category are you quoting and what page?
JL222
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Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community.
Sorry but there is no slander happening here at all. I've made nothing but truthful statements. There are many, many production diesel sport trucks sold around the world! As a mater of fact a Chevy LUV was made and sold in the US with a diesel! Maybe you should do a little research first! Now as far as production goes on your truck if it came from the factory it was production and any part that did not come from the factory makes it none production or aftermarket. All you have is a body and frame that are production, so its all in how far you want to follow the rules out and at some point you have to stop.
Your still running the GearVendors unit in your driveline, correct? Still running none factory parts in the Allison and the converter isn't factory is it? The motor still running all the factory parts right and the turbo is still a factory VNT? Then that bed cover came as a production part from the factory didn't it? You've modified all these components and that makes them not production any longer.
Like I said before twist it any way you like but your trying to get the rules fit to what your truck is and why would that be?
Please read the rulebook, it will answer most your questions above. In particular read the Production sections. Production doesn't mean box-stock, and there are not SCCA style box stock classes in LSR that I know of.
Hundreds of folk have checked out my truck, and I'm always happy to show it to people. Many of the members here have seen it. It does not have a Gear Vendors unit in it, it has an Allison automatic Transmission that has been tweaked by Inglewood Transmissions (Mike Lovrich) who is the best Allison guy bar none that I've ever met. If you ever run into trouble with your Allison, you should look him up. It feeds into an AAM 1150 axle which is the OEM diesel axle assy.
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... your trying to get the rules fit to what your truck is and why would that be?
Here's what I would suggest. Go to www.scta-bni.org and look to the lower left for the Rule Change form. Suggest they change /DT to read - "... represent typical pickup trucks ..." and then there will be no debate.
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I'm not looking for any rule changes, you are! Banks ran a Sport Truck with a diesel as have many others in the past. So are you now admitting that Sport Trucks do have diesels? Therefor they meet the "This class is intended to represent typical diesel pickup trucks..." You seem to have skipped over that now that I've shown you where you are misinformed. Since a Chevy Luv truck came with an Isuzu diesel and many other sport trucks come with diesels and that's the same type truck that Curtis is building it fits the same rules as your truck.
While you may have removed the Gear Vendor unit now it was in the truck at Bonneville. As I've said before twist it however you like but your truck is no more of a factory production truck than the Bank's or Spal effort was or Curtis's effort will be.
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I'm not looking for any rule changes, you are! Banks ran a Sport Truck with a diesel as have many others in the past. So are you now admitting that Sport Trucks do have diesels? Therefor they meet the "This class is intended to represent typical diesel pickup trucks..." You seem to have skipped over that now that I've shown you where you are misinformed. Since a Chevy Luv truck came with an Isuzu diesel and many other sport trucks come with diesels and that's the same type truck that Curtis is building it fits the same rules as your truck.
While you may have removed the Gear Vendor unit now it was in the truck at Bonneville. As I've said before twist it however you like but your truck is no more of a factory production truck than the Bank's or Spal effort was or Curtis's effort will be.
Mr. Cole,
There is not, nor has there ever been a Gear Vendor OD unit or any GV products in my truck(s). I suggest you apologize. It was a lot of hard work getting a diesel truck up to 174mph without a GV or axle swap, and I resent you calling me and my crew liars.
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i wasnt asking on what computer you were gonna use or where to find it in the rule book.... i was asking on what motor code and what body code you were gonna use cuz i dont think there is one..... and if there is no code, there is no class, and there will be no record..... so again what code do ya smarties think you are gonna put on the entry form?
kent
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Our truck will be entered as a B/DT. Codes are 104/322 and if parts come together on a LS motor, we will try to run C/BMMP also. Not at Speedweek but at World of Speed.
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didnt you say it was gonna be a mini truck? s-10 or something like that?
kent
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Curtis,
An excellent source for LS1 family engine tech is www.ls1tech.com . I believe the LS engines are the best thing ever out of Detroit. There would be a great deal of interest and support in the LS1 community for an LSR LS1 powered pickup effort. It's the bassard stepchild with a very bad attitude IMO. A short stroke LSX block with the right endurance racing parts in it, could be the cat's meow on the long course, IMO.
I like you and respect what you've done in the diesel community, and consider you a true gearhead, but my opinion on DT is not news to you, nor does my opinion carry any weight. And I've given you my word I will not (nor anyone working with me) protest anything you enter. This is supposed to be for fun, certainly that is true in my case.
I think all this should be put to bed. Good luck with the Goodfellow diesel streamliner, and with your own LSR truck.
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Thanks for the tip on the LS site. I was in Detroit last week and got a great lead on some LS9 blowers and other parts. Will be putting together something at 368ci. I'll keep my nose to the grindstone to get everything done, but should be a great summer either way. Look forward to seeing Casper run and wish you and the team all the best.
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Our truck will be entered as a B/DT. Codes are 104/322 and if parts come together on a LS motor, we will try to run C/BMMP also. Not at Speedweek but at World of Speed.
Ment to quote Steve's post but it seems same team. :-P
Steve as driveline swaps are allowed in DT why do you think a gear-vendor unit is not? This is also allowed in production category. So answer my question what rulebook and what page and were can I buy a sport truck with a large diesel?
Just because Banks ran a sport truck at Bville doesn't mean its legal for SCTA-BNI class rules he went over 200 but see no record in diesel classes.
JL222 :cheers:
This is good to get sorted out now.
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You seem to miss my point. The bitch from Pat has been that Curtis's truck is not going to be legal and should not be. I do not care if he runs the Gear Vendors but it's not a production part. So if you want a strict guideline it does not meet Production. Curtis has quoted the numbers above and I've pointed out just one model of a Production Sport Truck that came with a diesel onboard. There are several more if you do a little digging, so it's nothing new. Pat just chooses to ignore the facts. Now are you going to tell me that no one that LSR races ever increases the engine size beyond the OEM factory engine? Isn't that just why you need to pick the class based on engine size? That's the way I read the rules anyways. So when Pat puts in his stroked motor does that mean he is no longer a production diesel............... I think not, just the engine class changes. So with the Stock displacement 6.6L you fall into B/DT. As for Bank's not being in the record book I do not believe they ran at the SCTA event, as I recall it was a FIA event they set there record at.
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You seem to miss my point. The bitch from Pat has been that Curtis's truck is not going to be legal and should not be. I do not care if he runs the Gear Vendors but it's not a production part. So if you want a strict guideline it does not meet Production. Curtis has quoted the numbers above and I've pointed out just one model of a Production Sport Truck that came with a diesel onboard. There are several more if you do a little digging, so it's nothing new. Pat just chooses to ignore the facts. Now are you going to tell me that no one that LSR races ever increases the engine size beyond the OEM factory engine? Isn't that just why you need to pick the class based on engine size? That's the way I read the rules anyways. So when Pat puts in his stroked motor does that mean he is no longer a production diesel............... I think not, just the engine class changes. So with the Stock displacement 6.6L you fall into B/DT. As for Bank's not being in the record book I do not believe they ran at the SCTA event, as I recall it was a FIA event they set there record at.
Just keeping a copy.
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In Oct. 2002 at the world finals Banks set a BNI record and a FIA record. The BNI record was 213.583 mph, This was in C/DT. The same meet in the flyings mile they ran 217.314 in the flying mile and a Kilo time of 350.012 kph. They were done on separate runs.
This was Catorgary B-Group lll- Class 17 - Diesel engine.
I was the chief timer at that time and timed all of their runs.
Spal, broke the BNI record in Aug. 2007 wit a speed of 215.091 mph in C/DT
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Glen, so they were C/DT due to the motor size being 5.9L?
Curtis will be B/DT due to his 6.6L displacement all within the rules as they are today! Then if he installs a "C" classification motor he will run C/DT and so on for various engine displacements the way I understand the rules.
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pg 82 - 5.F.4 Diesel Truck -/DT
"This class is intended to represent typical diesel pickup trucks..."
Just to clear the air on this line of the rulebook, S-10 trucks at times were available in the US during their production run with a 2.2L Isuzu Diesel. Most of these were used by fleets as they were about 80hp and quite a slug. S-10s were also available in other countries with diesels and are still being produced in Brazil with a 2.8L Turbo Diesel at 140HP. The word "typical" is open to debate, but it can't be argued that these trucks didn't come with tractor engines.
Curtis
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Steve --
What SCTA calls Production (not what McRat may or may not do) is a far distant thing from what you may think of as Stock. Even in the old drag racing days Stock was not stock. And Production isn't what you think of as production. But that doesn't not make it a category to race under. Before you go astray, investigate what's allowed in the gas production and production supercharged SCTA classes.
They may be wrong -- but they're what we got. You're welcome to change them to your opinion or go with them. Just don't f**k with the roadsters.
Stan
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Stan
I am not looking to change anything at all. The rules are fine the way they are but some want to twist around what is already in the rule book. The Sport Truck or mini truck already comes with a diesel engine and I've pointed that out, many times. As far as I can see there is no rule about changing the engine size other than you have to pick the right class for your engine size. All this BS is because one person want things his way and not the way the rules read. He wants to play with the words of "typical diesel pickup trucks" only to fit what he has, and that's not what it says! Since the factory produces the truck with a diesel engine that's got to fit production diesel truck in my book! If what he wants happens then your going to need a real change to spell out what is and is not going to be allowed when you use the word "Production" in the classification.
This whole debate is only because he doesn't look into the facts and a S-10 with a diesel engine is a factory production truck.
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didn't you say it was gonna be a mini truck? s-10 or something like that?
kent
Yes Kent it is a S-10....doesn't matter in Diesel Truck as there is no division between full size and mid size trucks like in the Gas Classes. There have been mini trucks holding records in D/T from Chevy Luvs (Hooker Graham Hooker) Spal (Ford Ranger) and Gale Banks (Dodge Dakota). As far as I know the Dakota is the only one that was never available from the factory with a diesel option, but I could be wrong, just haven't found any evidence. The S-10 and Luv Pickup were available with a 2.2L Isuzu diesel and the Ranger was available with a 4cyl diesel which was probably Mazda based.
As the book reads now there is one class for Diesel Trucks. Engine swaps are permitted and engine classes available are from AA to H. Quite a wide range of options available. If the issue is wheather or not a S-10 is a diesel truck, I'll be sure to bring a GM Service Manual with me to tech.
Curtis
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You seem to miss my point. The bitch from Pat has been that Curtis's truck is not going to be legal and should not be. I do not care if he runs the Gear Vendors but it's not a production part. So if you want a strict guideline it does not meet Production. Curtis has quoted the numbers above and I've pointed out just one model of a Production Sport Truck that came with a diesel onboard. There are several more if you do a little digging, so it's nothing new. Pat just chooses to ignore the facts. Now are you going to tell me that no one that LSR races ever increases the engine size beyond the OEM factory engine? Isn't that just why you need to pick the class based on engine size? That's the way I read the rules anyways. So when Pat puts in his stroked motor does that mean he is no longer a production diesel............... I think not, just the engine class changes. So with the Stock displacement 6.6L you fall into B/DT. As for Bank's not being in the record book I do not believe they ran at the SCTA event, as I recall it was a FIA event they set there record at.
Just keeping a copy.
Pat unlike you I do not change what my post say! A perfect example of how you operate is you accused me of "Slander" in post #16 in this thread, then I answered you in post #17. So what do you do......... you go back and change your post and remove what you said.
Guys, this is just typical McRat stuff that he has been pulling for years and I can clearly see he is up to his old tricks here. Sorry if you think I am picking on him but his MO has not changing any from his past ways.
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Well, if your S-10 body is the same body as the South American diesel S-10 body, then there is nothing left to discuss. It matches the rulebook.
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Steve -- please allow us the privilege of making up our minds without further help from you. I understand you may have inside knowledge -- you know things that might not be known to one and all -- but mud-slinging to argue your point doesn't help the site as much as it brings the entire place down to the level of folks that are arguing. Please -- now that you've quite loudly made your point about someone -- let it go. If you feel you need to argue further -- get off the Forum and find another venue for the shouting. If you've got constructive information about your - or anyone else's racing efforts -- please continue. We all want to learn. If Pat - or anyone - is "cheating" -- he'll face his fellow racers at some point - or maybe not, and he'll get away with it. Anyone that manages to avoid getting found out - still has to worry about looking at his participation and/or record certificates -- and thinking about how he "earned" them.
Thanks.
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Thanks Jon. My sentiments exactly!!
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curtis...
cool..!....
hows the liner after the fire? gonna rebuild it?
kent
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Yeah it's in good shape. Mike and Jim had a lot of the mods done to the chassis done before Lynn got out of the hospital just before Christmas. Lynn has been crackin the whip ever since he got back. A good deal of the body was junk and new parts had to be built. The good part though is they learned alot from the first go around and the body is much better fitting and better finish. Engine is nearly done, just waiting on some CNC parts before final assembly. I figure we're good for another 300+ HP over what we had available last year.
Looking forward to getting back there.
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I know the rule book says we need to use the supplied event fuel, but I'm wondering what the specifications of the fuel are. Who do we contact to get cetane ratings? Diesel fuel can vary widely from one area of the country to another or from supplier to supplier. Any info would be greatly appreciated.
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ERC is the event fuel supplier for SCTA/BNI. Contact Rick Gold at ERC for details. I don't know who supplies fuel if you're asking about the Top Speed Shootout.
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DOH! Didn't see this.
The event diesel last year was just #2 ULSD from the truck stop pump. ERC had Johnny go to the truck stop and fill a drum for the event at SW.
Our "race gas" is now cheaper than regular 87 unleaded. :-D Gotta love diesel hotrodding. :cheers:
I do wish they would permit biodiesel also which makes less HP than pump fuel, simply because it's a good PR thingy for diesel technology.
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This IS racing...Would you really trade performance for "political correctness"? I mean, really, your machine is a monster diesel. It is the fastest in the world in that class, and you want to give ground to a huge crowd of people that will not accept you no matter what you concede? They want you in an electric, or at the very least a "smart" car.
Now maybe for a biodiesel class? That may gain traction without compromise...just a thought...just my (maybe) young and ignorant view of course...no offense meant in any case...
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Serious truck racing in LSR is relatively new in the grand scheme of things. I have a seeking suspicion that rules governing the trucks will become more defined in the next 4-5 years.
As much as I dislike diesel trucks in general I have to admit that the technology and performance gains made in the last 10 years are quite impressive to say the least.
There has been some real gains in the MPH numbers posted by trucks in the last few meets.
Clearly trucks (and or diesel trucks) would be an interesting area for a future LSR project.
~JH
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Okay, JH -- a philosophical statement deserves a query: Why do you dislike diesel trucks in general? I guess I'll also ask you to mention whether your dislike is for a specific "size" -- semi-type, medium duty (delivery, for instance), pickup (both full-size and mini) -- or the basic diesel engine (sparkless) concept. I'm curious, that's all.
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Boy -- they are the hottest new thing! Get on the bandwagon! Let's get some more classes! Gee -- there's only 13 classes now available and already three have been entered for SpeedWeek!
Stan Back
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Okay, JH -- a philosophical statement deserves a query: Why do you dislike diesel trucks in general? I guess I'll also ask you to mention whether your dislike is for a specific "size" -- semi-type, medium duty (delivery, for instance), pickup (both full-size and mini) -- or the basic diesel engine (sparkless) concept. I'm curious, that's all.
I don’t have any real problems with the motors themselves other than they stink and are noisy.
My issue is the hundreds of big diesel (Chev, Dodge and Ford) trucks driving around Portland that have never been used for anything other than running to the grocery store. The beds in these trucks don’t have a scratch in the bed or ever had a stinger put in the hitch…..but for whatever reason they feel they need 100,000 pound towing ablilty, a 6” exhaust and engine brake that rattles you windows every time it drives by at 2am.
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I agree. Too many around here are louder than un-muffled Harleys (of which there are many too many).
Mike
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So its not the diesel trucks thats the problem its just the way people use or missuse them and law enforcements general failure to inforce some laws? Just want to get this straight. :-D
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While a 6800lb diesel pickup will get better mileage than a 5000lb gasoline pickup in many cases, unless you tow heavy, and often, the economics aren't there due to the higher initial cost. The heavier the load, the more the diesel makes sense with trucks, but like JH said, most folk use them for lighter duties.
That being said, new diesels pickups are also among the most powerful trucks sold currently. The 09 Chevy Duramax makes 365HP at the brochure, which is more HP than the supercharged Ford Lightning pickups made, IIRC. A test drive at your local GM/Ford/Dodge dealer will explain why they are big sellers. The new diesel pickups are quiet, smooth, fast, and very well appointed. And they just feel right.
They have come a very long way in 10 years.
What attracts a lot of diesel pickup owners now is hotrodding them. There is not anything comparable. You can double the factory engine output very easy. Take a 400HP Corvette and see what it takes to make 800HP, or any other vehicle. My first Duramax dyno'd 245rwhp when new. Exhaust and tuning brought the power up to 502rwhp. It's not dyno stroking though. The truck ran 17.6 @ 78mph in the quarter mile when new, then 13.1@103 after tuning. Race weight was ~7100lb (3500 4x4 long bed crew cab). Plug those #'s into a HP calculator as see what it says. Mileage improved about 10% in the process.
If you are so inclined, you can have a daily driver that can go 0-60mph in 4 seconds, get 23mpg highway, haul 4000lb in the bed, or tow a 14,000lb trailer safely. And still commute in comfort with all the standard amenities, with no worries about smog testing. Could you build a gasoline vehicle to do that? Dunno. I know you can with a diesel.
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This IS racing...Would you really trade performance for "political correctness"? I mean, really, your machine is a monster diesel. It is the fastest in the world in that class, and you want to give ground to a huge crowd of people that will not accept you no matter what you concede? They want you in an electric, or at the very least a "smart" car.
Now maybe for a biodiesel class? That may gain traction without compromise...just a thought...just my (maybe) young and ignorant view of course...no offense meant in any case...
Running biodiesel could perhaps net you sponsorship from biodiesel shops. They are often looking for marketing opportunities that show biodiesel to be "good stuff".
Here's what I know about diesel fuel:
Biodiesel or veggie oil will make about 4% less power, but that just means we have to inject more of it. It has a slight advantage at high rpm.
Synthetic diesel is made from natural gas, makes slightly more power, and has better high RPM operation and lower emissions. Some of this is already being blended into petro fuel, and it will increase as supplies increase. Some countries get a lot of this fuel, if not all. Dubai is the largest exporter.
You can increase high RPM performance by using Cetane boosters. Higher cetane ratings allow the fuel to ignite easier and burn faster. 2EHN is the most common, and is a major ingredient in off-the-shelf diesel fuel additives.
Shell blends a special roadracing fuel for Audi for low smoke and high RPM performance. This is not available to the average racer.
For cold areas in the winter, the pump fuel is often mixed different, we call this Winter Fuel. It makes less power, but does not gell as easy, which is a real problem with diesels in cold weather. If you wonder why your mileage drops in the winter in snow areas, this is the reason.
Red diesel is for off-road use only. It contains a red dye for the DOT to detect. It is normal #2 unless otherwise labeled. No road taxes are added to it. You will rue the day you are caught with it on the street, as the fine can be $10k.
#1 diesel is pretty close to plain kerosene, and is seldom used anymore. Don't run this in your late model engines. Usually it's red fuel anyhow, IIRC.
We run only normal #2 pump fuel with no additives and pure water mist to save the turbine from melting.
But unlike spark ignition fuel, there is no Super Fuel for diesels. Normal #2 pump diesel is just about as powerful as anything you can use. Yes, for high RPM engines, improving the cetane will improve performance, but nothing like methanol or nitromethane does with spark engines. Our high cetane fuel mixes are perhaps equivalent to what is called gasoline by the SCTA. SCTA gasoline is not pump gas, which is 91 octane often cut with ethanol, very crappy stuff. Why diesels are limited to pump fuel? This I can't answer. I have a feeling though, that it was because there was not much known about it, so they "played it safe".
If a hardcore diesel racer ever gets the ear of the SCTA, I imagine they will just drop the whole "event diesel" thingy. Having gasoline guys determine what is and isn't diesel fuel, is like asking a priest for sex advice.
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Okay, now I get it. No big deal, JH -- I understand, and am not all that convinced that many of the folks with diesel engines in their pickups need 'em, either. The diesel option in my '04 Duramax was about $7 grand -- mostly in motor and transmission (then the Allison was only available with the diesel and the diesel wasn't available without the Allison). We bought it for heavy hauling (probably about 60,000 miles out of the 200,000 on it have been with trailer of one sort or another behind, including up to the 7,000# three-axle equipment trailer loaded with the 4-ton Bobcat skidsteer). We also wanted the deep torque for towing over the mountains -- which means way fewer downshifts to crest the hills, and that means far better "driveability" -- less noise and stress on the passengers. And the fuel economy is important, too -- although our timing was about perfect in that the price of diesel jumped to more than the price of gasoline just when we bought the pickup. It's only in the last month or so the diesel is FINALLY back down below gas. The noise issue is not a valid one in our Duramax, I'm happy to report. It is very comparable to that of a gasoline engine -- and I run factory stock exhaust minus the muffler. No 6" pipe, no exhaust brake, etc.
The short answer -- is that we've got about 200k miles on the truck and have, indeed, got our $7000 investment back because of the various things I've mentioned above. Better still -- the truck isn't showing many signs of age, so I'll get more "back" from the diesel engine as time (and miles) go by.
Okay -- back to racing.
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Other thoughts.
I'm just a guy who likes to drive too fast on the weekends, so reading what I write on the subject is suspect. I've been wrong before, ask my kids.
But think about this. When spark ignition was the king of the air, the military spent millions developing special fuels to increase the performance of aircraft engines for fighters and bombers.
The diesel engine shares more in common with the jet engine than it does with spark engines as far as combustion goes. You can run jet fuel in your diesel truck if you add some lubricity additive to the fuel like Stanadyne. Your truck will make a little less power though. So you would think there is a Super Fuel that powers military jets. IIRC, an F-15 runs off of JP-8 which isn't significantly different than normal commercial Jet A. They are experimenting with using synthetic fuel in the F-15 made from natural gas, and the performance is identical.
Yes, there are special fuels for certain aircraft like the SR-71 and U2, but these have to do more with high altitude engine behavior than thrust gains.
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Okay, now I get it. No big deal, JH -- I understand, and am not all that convinced that many of the folks with diesel engines in their pickups need 'em, either. The diesel option in my '04 Duramax was about $7 grand -- mostly in motor and transmission (then the Allison was only available with the diesel and the diesel wasn't available without the Allison). We bought it for heavy hauling (probably about 60,000 miles out of the 200,000 on it have been with trailer of one sort or another behind, including up to the 7,000# three-axle equipment trailer loaded with the 4-ton Bobcat skidsteer). We also wanted the deep torque for towing over the mountains -- which means way fewer downshifts to crest the hills, and that means far better "driveability" -- less noise and stress on the passengers. And the fuel economy is important, too -- although our timing was about perfect in that the price of diesel jumped to more than the price of gasoline just when we bought the pickup. It's only in the last month or so the diesel is FINALLY back down below gas. The noise issue is not a valid one in our Duramax, I'm happy to report. It is very comparable to that of a gasoline engine -- and I run factory stock exhaust minus the muffler. No 6" pipe, no exhaust brake, etc.
The short answer -- is that we've got about 200k miles on the truck and have, indeed, got our $7000 investment back because of the various things I've mentioned above. Better still -- the truck isn't showing many signs of age, so I'll get more "back" from the diesel engine as time (and miles) go by.
Okay -- back to racing.
LB7 or LLY engine? 2004 both models were produced. The LB7 has a wastegated IHI turbo with hidden injectors, the LLY has the AVNT Garrett turbo with adjustable vane turbine and exposed injectors. If your 8th digit in the VIN is 1, LB7, 2=LLY IIRC. We have a 2004 LLY with about 90,000 used mainly for towing, and has been pretty much trouble free. High altitude performance is very good on the Duramax, regardless of year, and is a very good reason to have one if you tow in the mountains.
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Without going for the walk to look -- I've got an LLY. Second half of the year/production run, higher HP rating from the manufacturer, right?
Another thing I didn't mention in my story was my faithful adherence to a regular oil change schedule. I put in Rotella synthetic 5W40 every 25,000 miles or so, changing filter then -- and half-way between oil changes. Make up oil is on the order of 1-2 quarts every filter change (plus what I need to replace from that filter change).
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Yup, LLY. 2004 LB7 was 300HP/560ftlb IIRC, and 2004.5 LLY was 310HP/590 (Blue), then 310/605 in 05 (Casper).
If you haven't done it already, adding a ~50hp tune to it normally increases mileage with no side effects. Our 04 LLY has been "tuned up" it's whole life. It runs a 4" straight pipe exhaust (no cat) and it's not loud.
If you tune them up over 90HP gain, you will eventually wear out the clutches in the trans, but 50HP doesn't have that issue.
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Okay, so I'll bite -- what do I do to put in that 50 hp tuneup? Chip, dyno, other parts, anything? If I can increase fuel economy with no ill effects -- I'll try it.
We drive the truck to and from town four or five times a week. That's a 50-mile round trip. NO "short" trips (a benefit of living way out in the woods). Trips to Maxton and the Salt are the long trips.
Will that 50 hp give better economy all the time -- or just on short or just on long trips? Thanks in advance.
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There are 4 basic ways to tune up a Duramax:
Harness Boxes: This is products like Edge and Banks. They plug in under the hood in seconds, and have multiple HP levels. They intercept signals to the engine, and modify them. They cannot be detected by GM once you remove them except potentially on the LMM (2008+) engines via stored info in the transmission computer. They often include a gauge panel. Priced from $400-$1000. Lots of them on the used market.
Handheld ECM tuners: Like PPE, Predator, Bully Dog (I don't endorse BD), these devices plug into your data port, then reflash your factory engine computer. They have multiple HP levels, up to Absolutely Nuts. They often include trouble code reading and resetting, and display engine data in real time. Whether these can be detected by GM after removal is a subject of debate. LMM's most certainly can be seen after removal. These can also remove the 96mph speed limiter. $350-$1200. I helped develop and carry the PPE brand.
Tuning Tools: EFILive and similiar. You (or someone) writes your own tune, then you flash it into the ECM via the data port. Infinite adjustability and power levels. Hardcore racers normally are running this. Best of the best, but not for everyone, it's the coolest tool in my toolbox. $800 and I write your first tune to your exact specs for your truck. Cannot be detected by GM except LMM. It will allow you tune most GM cars and trucks, gas or diesel, from 1997-2009.
Custom ECM's: You buy the entire engine computer preflashed to your specific needs. LMM's are still a problem with detection, unless you swap both ECM and TCM computers. $800-$1000.
For most folk who just tow, harness boxes are probably the easiest and safety route. I don't carry them. Lots on the used market as folk end up wanting more HP than they can provide (~125rwhp max gain).
Unlike what most gas drivers are familiar with, when a diesel modification says "50 HP", it's at least 50rwhp (with some exceptions), and is NOT subtle. You will have zero doubt when you install a 50hp tune, it feels like a .050" nitrous jet. A +250rwhp tune is absolutely insane and will trash your transmission in short order. It will often put a 7000lb 4x4 into the 12's.
The mileage is increased via the increased injection timing advance, and most all tunes show similiar improvements. Even the 250rwhp tunes show mileage gains. Mileage gains are everywhere EXCEPT when "using" the additional power. Your right foot controls fueling. At identical speeds and loads, a tuned truck will use less fuel than an untuned truck.
But be VERY careful. Many of us (I is one) said that all we wanted is a 50HP tune and we would quit. Next thing you know, you go nuts. It's like cocaine, but probably more expensive. It has caused divorces, bankruptcy, and probably long term mental illness.
If you bring your truck to Bonneville, I can flash a 50hp tune into it for free, so you can see how it runs.
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DOH!
Fifth method: Someone with a tuning tool tunes your truck in person. $0-$1000. To remove the tune, you need to either go to GM and get it flashed to stock, or the guy who flashed it.
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"Flashing the Computor" What Computor???? I got a 1991 Dodge Diesel.....now with over 350.000 miles on it....pulls the race trailer great......modified the exhaust system......up-dated the injectors......worked on the Turbo......get 22 miles to the gallon running solo......18 miles to the gallon with the trailer......Oh, yes,
it has a stick 5 speed trans......it also has a higher Diff. than stock.......been a great truck.......but as usual with Dodge trucks, the power train is outstanding.....the rest is sh@#%^t......speedo failed back in 1995, tryed fixing it several times, gave up and got a hub-meter to keep track or milage....don't need no stinking speedo, got a tach........3 fuel tank sender units todate....cut a hole in the truck bed for easy replacement, cover with plate, simple.......I don't want to bore you with some of the "other" chassis problems.......but as I noted...great power train..............................................................................
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"Flashing the Computor" What Computor???? I got a 1991 Dodge Diesel.....now with over 350.000 miles on it....pulls the race trailer great......modified the exhaust system......up-dated the injectors......worked on the Turbo......get 22 miles to the gallon running solo......18 miles to the gallon with the trailer......Oh, yes,
it has a stick 5 speed trans......it also has a higher Diff. than stock.......been a great truck.......but as usual with Dodge trucks, the power train is outstanding.....the rest is sh@#%^t......speedo failed back in 1995, tryed fixing it several times, gave up and got a hub-meter to keep track or milage....don't need no stinking speedo, got a tach........3 fuel tank sender units todate....cut a hole in the truck bed for easy replacement, cover with plate, simple.......I don't want to bore you with some of the "other" chassis problems.......but as I noted...great power train..............................................................................
Cummins is makes an excellent engine.
I'm not a Dodge guy, but here is how I understand it, there are 3 basic versions:
12v engine (early). 6 individual valve covers. All mechanical. Bigger injectors, reworking/adjusting the pump/fuel plate, bigger turbos are the basic power mods.
24v engine (mid years). One big red valve cover. VP44 pump is part mechanical, part computer. Bigger injectors, harness boxes, bigger turbos. No ECM tuning.
Common Rail (late models). Has a Bosch CP3 injection pump like a Duramax. Injectors, and the same kinds of mods as Dmax, but no EFILive (yet).
With the Dmax, you can run the factory turbo up to ~550rwhp and the factory injectors up to 800rwhp. So turbos and injectors aren't as necessary for power.
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In re: The Cummins 5.9 L diesel engine. In 1993 I bought a Ford F-700 medium duty truck with the Cummins 12-valve rated at 205 hp (I think it was). Ford sure wasn't good at making a medium duty truck -- but the engine and transmission were dandy. We donated the truck to a non-profit when we were done with it -- at about 650,000 miles. The truck is still running for them, some ten years after we let it go. The engine was sound, that's for sure.
By the way -- our next trucks used the Caterpillar 3126 electronic motor, and they were okay -- but required more repairs than did the Cummins.
I'll be at Speed Week, so will the truck, and I'll be happy to let you take a run at retuning it. Thanks for the offer.
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Sorry out to others that I'm cluttering up an LSR board with diesel talk, but I certainly did notice a large number of diesel tow pickups at events, so it might be good info to them, even though not necessarily racing related. :cheers:
PS - My wife's truck made the cover of Diesel World next month, with a feature article. It's a tow vehicle.
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Beats me! If you go back to the beginning you might get a clue. But a lot of responses have been edited and/or completely deleted.
But if it's about Street Roadsters, it must be important!
Stan Back