Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: maguromic on February 23, 2009, 11:33:56 PM
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I am helping a very good friend build a rear engine modified roadster. Along with my self their will be a about 10 others working on this build. We have a diverse background in racing many are from the old IMSA and Trans Am days and a few from Indy Car and LSR. We even have a secret LSR professional that holds a few records even one on an electric scooter helping with the composite work. LOL
Be patient as this will be a slow build as we all have day jobs and we will be working on this on a part time basis. The build will be done at Sears Point so if anyone wants to come by or event get dirty and work on it, send me a PM and we can meet up.
Tony
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Good luck and I look forward to the build pictures and story.. :cheers:
J
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I will start with the back of the car since we have the body and trans picked out.
The cars transaxle will need to be modified for the air shifter. Most likely the case will have to be modified on the bottom to mount the barrel and the air shifter. Originally this transaxle was designed as an “H” pattern so the shift forks will also need to be modified for the air shifter. Lots of final gear ratios are available all the way to 2.20 to 1 without going to overdrive. This setup will also help lower the engine in the car to get the CG low.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/WeismannTransaxle01.jpg)
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What is the trans axle out of ?
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The trans is out of Paul Gentilozzi’s GTS Oldsmobile IMSA car. Chris Weismann and Bob Riley designed it. According to Chris its good to about 1500HP, so should be able to take all the HP we can throw at it. Unless the car runs fuel or turbos its HP limited.
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Hey Tony. Make sure you do lots of pictures of the trans axle install. I have a Weisman and have been toying with the idea of a 'liner or rear engine modified too.
Does yours have a bevel gear in it?
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Hey Tony. Make sure you do lots of pictures of the trans axle install. I have a Weisman and have been toying with the idea of a 'liner or rear engine modified too.
Does yours have a bevel gear in it?
I have not started to design the frame yet, but will post pictures as I go. Riley redesigned the mounting points as the cases were cracking when the car was jumping in the corkscrew at Laguna and on the transition at Daytona. It has a small bevel gear in it that Weismann builds in house. Is yours the Indy box with the 12-bolt ring and pinion similar to the one Al Teague used?
Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/TransaxleParts08.jpg)
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Man I will have to come by when I get back to Cali in April. What shop are you in at Sears? I used to work as the fabricator for the dreaded Russell racing. I quit when the new owners pissed me off. I still know a bunch of guys there though.
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Man I will have to come by when I get back to Cali in April. What shop are you in at Sears? I used to work as the fabricator for the dreaded Russell racing. I quit when the new owners Plymouthed me off. I still know a bunch of guys there though.
We are across the street form Lynx Racing, its the first shop on the left as you come in to that side of the track. I don't get up there as much as I like to but send me a PM when you want to come and I will meet you up there. We were working out of Dodge's shop, but if you know him then you know how packed that shop is.
Tony
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I'm not understanding which shop. You are in the lower shops? Lynx was where cameron karting was/is right? Are you in Travis Lewis' shop?
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Yep, we are on the lower side. Lynx and Cameron are in the same shop. Cameron runs the Lynx Formula Atlantic team, we are two doors from Travis's shop on the same side.
Tony
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Started on the design of the front suspension. These are some napkin drawings done by Steve Conover to get an idea before we move forward.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/frtsusplayoutrev2frtview.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/frtsusplayoutrev2isofromfront.jpg)
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Ok that is why I was confused. Lynx hasn't been a team for a few years. They just have Karts in there now.
So you are next to Andy Gillespie's shop?
Nice drawings too.
What are your plans for the body? Fiberglass, aluminum.....?
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I'm wondering if you're going to try a lay-down cockpit. My RMR isn't caged yet and I've got some ideas of an arrangement that would let me get in and out with a Hans device on. It's a tough decision to make, given we are all heading down a new path, so to speak. :|
Looking forward to more pics of your project...thanks for putting it up!
JimL
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Still playing around with the seating position. We have been talking with Jim Downing and his brother in law who designed the HANS about the angles that are acceptable. Most likely it will be a seating position a few degrees (3-7) lower from what current Indy cars are using. The roll bar will only be about 3" higher than the cowl. The body will have a contoured step from the body proper to the straight section of the body (this area will be about 20" tall, this will let us get the driver low as possible. Very similar to the Panoz Indy car around the driver shoulder area. Still its a bunch of compromises to get everything to work together.
Tony
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....... Still its a bunch of compromises to get everything to work together. Tony
Seems that almost everyone can build the "perfect car" in their head or on paper, but soon find out that it comes down to the "compromises" that you talked about.
I look forward to seeing the build on this car. Good luck with it,
Sum
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Interesting idea. Probably a little beyond my fabrication skills, however. I'll have to wait until I can get the car off the ceiling and start working out the cage arrangement.
thanks,
JimL
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JimL, Its not that bad. My fabrication skills aren't that good, but I think I can tackle it. I am just glad I am not doing the welding. The drivers compartment will come up against the fire wall. That's where the step will start and the the front of the body will start to taper on the sides. On either side by the taper there will be room for the dry sump tank or water tanks. The shoulder area will have a smooth flow up like in this picture of the Panoz. To build the shoulder area of the body we will use foam to shape it and take a mold to send down to Kent.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Panoz-dp01-713346.jpg)
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Tony
I have a lakester mold to layup next week do ya want me to do the layup on your nose the following week?
kent
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Kent,
I will give you a call on Monday. Did the rooms work out for you?
Tony
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We have been working on the suspension layout an the brake system the last few days. To keep the calipers and rotor out of the air in the rear we decided to go with inboard brakes. After a lot of head scratching and calculations we need to run twin calipers (on each side of the car) to eliminate the bending moment on the gearbox output flange. By next week we should have all the suspension geometry worked out.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rearsuspandbodydiscussion030509c.jpg)
This is the rack we will be running. Its out of a '97 Reynard Champ car and is readily available and cheap. We want the car to have very slow steering, so we used the Reynard speedway 7 tooth rack ( it has 1.98” per revolution of wheel). It will be further slowed down at the front wheels.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rack3.jpg)
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Tony,
Do I detect a Bantam body? The tires look close, are they out at 50"?
DW
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DW,
Its a '27, the body drawing isn't that good, the tires are out at 51".
Tony
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"Champ car" and "Cheap".........Those are words you don`t see used together very often . Looks like a fun project....Thanks for sharing. J.B.
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"Champ car" and "Cheap".........Those are words you don`t see used together very often . Looks like a fun project....Thanks for sharing. J.B.
J.B., I know what you mean. But there are lots of this old stuff floating around. They go for about $175- $300. Ours was $200. This is a community car that a bunch of us will be using and is a budget build, the majority of the parts on this car are off other race cars. Some of the parts are cheap because they have been cycled out, but fine for what we are doing. If anyone wants to find one of these Reynard speedway racks the part number to look for is ILH007.
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Tony:
What CAD tool is used for the drawings? 8-) Are you doing them or someone else?
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Tony:
What CAD tool is used for the drawings? 8-) Are you doing them or someone else?
Saltfever, I didn't do any of the drawings that are currently posted. Their are a bunch of us working on this project and its broken down into each persons area of specialty. Steve Conover is a Champ Car / IMSA engineer and is doing the suspension layout and the aero work and is using Solidworks. I will be doing the frame drawing in the next few weeks (I will post it for comments) and will use Unigraphics NX, I don't know of any other system that could do it practically. It might be possible in Solidworks but it would be very difficult in my opinion. I am also doing the body surface modeling and will use Maya, by Autodesk. Tony
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Thanks :-) for the update, Tony. It is nice to have "industrial strength" tools. Those are both great programs. Its been a quite a few years since I have seen a Unigraphics workstation.
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Tony,
A lot of sofeware packages mentioned. Whatever happened to chalk on the floor and cutting pipe? If something doesn't fit, cut it off, move it and cover with rattle can spray.
DW
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Tony,
A lot of sofeware packages mentioned. Whatever happened to chalk on the floor and cutting pipe? If something doesn't fit, cut it off, move it and cover with rattle can spray.
DW
DW, I don't have the talent to do that. :cry: :cry: I need a crutch to help me. The guys that can do that are the true heroes of LSR and in my book an inspiration to me and many others. :cheers: A couple of years ago I saw the pictures on how the Markley tank was built. Chalk on the floor and a lot of beer cases with amazing results. I think a few years ago Hot Rod named it in their list of most influential cars. Besides with the cost of pipe these days we cant afford to make a mistake.
Tony
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Righ now there is a part of my shop that is exactly what we are doing Dan :-D Andy and I sometimes get behind the process :-D and have to use full beers instead of empties---if you are ever in Phoenix we would welcome your help with the design process!!!!! lol :cheers:
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I agree with Dan in that the fun part of it all is the fabrication and decision making in the shop. :-) On the other hand some wonderful CAD and Engineering tools have have been developed and been significantly lowered in price in recent years. If affordable, I would rather get a FEA (finite element analysis) look at the cage before a real life event!
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The big benefit for us is using the models to do the FEA and CFD work. Especially on the FEA work on the cage, like saltfever mentioned "I would rather get a FEA (finite element analysis) look at the cage before a real life event!" There are some ideas that we want to try out before we start cutting pipe. Tony
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Finally the suspension design is done and we are very happy with the geometry outcome. The castor, kingpin, scrub, trail, camber curve and bump steer all look really good. The steering arm is double sheer for added insurance. Since we went with spindle mounts, Rich Bogart (Bogart Wheels) had to re design the front hubs to get the upright to fit properly.
Something I never thought of but Rich bought it my attention that most aluminum rims aren’t designed for the tire pressures that LSR cars run (60PSI plus) and are prone to cracking and should be checked annually.
If we don’t get spring fever from all the beautiful weather we have been having, some more might get done.
Drawing by Steve Conover
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/frtsusplayoutrev3.jpg)
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B e a u t i f u l design by Steve. :-)
Tony, any chance we could link to the solid model somehow so we can play with it? Sometimes a "viewer" can be downloaded from the CAD OEM to allow review or manipulation by others without the ability to alter the data. If the intellectual property could be protected it would be quite educational or helpful to understand the various geometry. TIA :-)
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saltfever, Let me check if it can be done without giving up any of the IP.
I received a few PM's on if the upright was an off the shelf part. The upright is designed to fit inside the wheel (15 x3 1/2) without protruding out of the inside cover. The spindle is an off the shelf part from Pro Works that is welded to the upright. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/frtuprightsubassyfromos.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/frtuprightsubassyfromis.jpg)
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......... The spindle is an off the shelf part from Pro Works that is welded to the upright. Tony.
Tony do you have a link to that spindle? What hub can be used with it?
Thanks and it looks like a great project,
Sum
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Sum, The spindle came from the Chassis Shop. http://secure.chassisshop.com/pdf/Steering-Controls-1.4.pdf Its on page 48 at the bottom. It will work with any Anglia hub or Anglia hub and wheel combo. On ours we had machine the hub about 1/4" to clear the inside part of the upright. Tony
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You can do this: go to the site www.solidworks.com. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on eDrawings under FREE CAD TOOLS. Download the free program SolidworksViewer for either the PC or Mac. Then, if Tony sends you the file(s) as .dwg files, you will be able to manipulate them without being able to alter the file content. We also used Solidworks to design our new chassis and our engineer shared design progress with me via emails with zipped files. Solidworks is especially suited to finding out how parts will fit in available space(s), but a PITA to generate framework plans that you can cut pipe off of. vic
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The reader is available, but trying to do it without giving up the Intellectual Property (IP) is what we are working on. Vic, I know what you mean about Solidworks, that's why I am going to draw the frame using Unigraphics NX.
After running the CFD program, we had to move the front wheels out further from the body (moved them around till we found the optimal spot for this car) as it was a choke point for the air. This made the A arms longer, and doing the FEA showed that the arms had to be re designed. Their isn't a big change on top, but the lower arm is now billet and two pieces. Tony
Removed the wrong picture. I will add the correct one soon.
Design by Steve Conover
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/frtsusplayoutrev4fv.jpg)
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how far out did ya wind up moving the wheels? are you doing the CFD? I'm having a problem with the students and my CFD stuff..
Kent
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how far out did ya wind up moving the wheels? are you doing the CFD? I'm having a problem with the students and my CFD stuff..
Kent
Originally we had the wheels about 4" from the body, after playing around with the CFD program, we found the optimal spot to be 6" from the body. One caveat, this is optimal for our nose, body shape (cowl forward), suspension and front aero strategy. It will be different on other cars with different parameters. I didn't do the CFD work, another one of the usual suspects working on the build did. If you want I can ask him for you. I know with the ALMS race season going, he is not here that much, so he might not be able to work at a fast pace on it. Tony
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Haven't had much to update till now, but here is the updated rear setup. Originally we were going to have duel inboard brakes. But when we ran the numbers we didn't see any benefit, only the extra drag and difficulty in changing gear ratios. It was decided to go back to outboard brakes. The rear is drawn with a GMC block as that's the only drawing I had, but it will be set up for C, D and E motor plates. If any of the guys working on the car wants to run a AA engine it will also have the room. The four bars going toward the driver are there just for alignment purposes and will not be in the frame drawing.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rearsuspsnapshot030209.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rearsuspsnapshot032009fromside.jpg)
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Looks good, Tony. Makes me skeered to post pics of our new, somewhat old school/primitive RMR (but I'm gonna do it soon as I get the pics uploaded to Photobucket) vic
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Looks good, Tony. Makes me skeered to post pics of our new, somewhat old school/primitive RMR (but I'm gonna do it soon as I get the pics uploaded to Photobucket) vic
Vic, I have seen your handy work in IMSA and Trans-Am. Anything your are involved with is very far from primitive. Post some pics of that car. :cheers: As far is this build, its just some of your old friends from Gloy's trying to have some fun.Tony
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Finally got the trans axle back mounts worked out and the D, E motor placed. We had to wait till we could find blueprints for the Chevy IRL engine to see if the crank center line can work with the trans axle position. As it would have it the trans axle had to be raised to work correctly. We also received allot of help from Timken and their engineering department to get the correct hubs and how to identify the Delphi parts from some of the cheap knock offs. I though we would be able to cut pipe by now. But after three redraws on the frame it may be next month before we can cut pipe.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/auroraengineshown.jpg)
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Maguromic, what a marvelous transition for the chalk lines on the floor, that have produced many record holding vehicles, to a working drawing that establishes exact measurements and the relationship of the elements of the build to the available space.
Do you have anyone in your crew that can lay out a tree house for the neighbor kids if I send u a foto of the tree?
You have convinced me that progress is happening in all areas of building.
Would we need a CNC mill to build the house?
I just found out that we can't weld wood. That's probably why there aren't any wooden LSR vehicles.
FREUD
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I don't know Freud, a few have run like stumps............. :evil:
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FREUD, I don't know what chalk on the floor is. I do know what a dry board is though. LOL If you give that tree picture I am sure we can get the tree house handled. But no mechanical drawings for the elevator to bring the LSR car up.
This is not my car, a few us are helping a friend with his car. It will be community car and will have several engines (the IRL engines are mine). Its very easy to maximize everything without spending any dollars. So far all we have in it is time and the few pieces that are taken from other cars. Having a clean sheet of paper to build the car will let us try some ideas out on the computer before we build. When I built my gas roadster I did some CFD ( a lot cheaper than a wind tunnel, even though I would like to go use the tunnel some time next year) work and found the area around the cockpit was crucial to the way my head rest faring was designed.
I do know what you mean though about chalk on the floor, we have almost 30 drawings for the suspension and related parts. Most will need a CNC.
By the way do you have any pictures of John Helash's Mustang with the 427 SOHC engine at Bonneville in '71'74.
Tony
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This is my '32 XO/GR, it should be at Speed Week (the engine has been a uphill battle) this year. The picture is photoshoped for a poster I did, I will try to post some better pictures on another thread soon. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/SideViewLR-1.jpg)
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Looks illegal to me.
'course everyone else's roadster looks illegal to me. That's the only reason they're alvways beating me!
Stan Back
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Dyno, maybe the ones that run like stumps can be used in the treehouse.
FREUD
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Rex, This picture is for you. :cheers: Finally figured out how to get the front anti- roll-bar (ARB) mounted. The chassis tubes aren't correct, in the final drawing they will extend forward to support the nose. The nose will be mounted with two or more “Bullets “ at least 1” diameter that fit tightly into holes and spring loaded with clamps that pull the nose back HARD on top of the rear parting line in all areas eliminating any movement helping the aero from less distortion and vibrations (an old GTP trick). Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/teebararb.jpg)
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Tony,
Love the ARB! this car is really going to be a collection of "old" Indy car parts. I don't think that people realize how much of this stuff is out there and how cheap it is. Love the pic of your roadster too!! slick!
Rex
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Finally all the suspension drawings are finished and the CNC work will be starting later this week. This car will have different engines and that took a long time to work out all the different crank center lines in relation to the trans axle and to get the rideheight correct.
These drawings are done to scale. The second picture is with the IRL engine for the "D" and "E" class. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Chassisoverallview.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/bodyandrearsusprefassyfv.jpg)
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Did some work on the parts today and also decided that we will use my my blown GMC 6 first. It has a F2 reverse rotation Procharger that was taken apart today and sent out to get extrude honed. The drawing is to scale with the aftercooler and the air box. However I still have to do some CFD work on the air box to see how it will flow. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/gmc_6_assy_21.jpg) (http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/gmc_6_assy_11.jpg)
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Looking good Tony.
Tom G.
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Tony, I'd test the Delta T and Delta P with that chargeair cooler before I spent time worrying about CFD on the plenum chamber. JMO.
:-)
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Tony, I'd test the Delta T and Delta P with that chargeair cooler before I spent time worrying about CFD on the plenum chamber. JMO.
:-)
Michael, The aftercooler has been tested. I wish it was my idea but it was on the Hill & Hill stream liner about 12-15 years ago. It’s the oil cooler element from a Cummings 855.
The data logging on the liner showed that it had an inlet temperature of about 400 degrees and an outlet temperature of about 118 degrees. The car was running an E motor (ex indy Buick V6) and spinning to 9000 rpm and was pushing about 35 pounds of boost. Without the cooler it ran 260 mph and with only adding the cooler it went 363. I think because of a blown tire they couldn’t back up the run. I am working on the cooler ends and assembly this week and I will add some pictures of everything soon. Tony
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Looks great. GMC's have come a long way since I started with them. Best of luck. JD
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Got a a few PM's on what type of head and rockers that we are running. So here it goes. The head is a stock GMC 302 head that's been worked over and is the same as on my gas roadster. I had my mule motor on my friends Spintron machine and found some shocking things about the valve train. Some of the gains were in valve train stability and part of the strategy was to build a girdle for the head and new rockers.
The bottom part of the valve cover acts as the girdle, where each rocker has bolts clamping down on either side for stability.. After spending some time doing FEA work on rocker designs I settled on this style of rocker. It has no rollers or adjusters on the rocker and is adjusted with lash caps. When I get to the shop I will takes some pictures of the actual parts and post them. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/valve_cover_2-1.jpg)
Valve cover bottom
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/gmc_6_assy_1-1.jpg)
Valve cover top
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/gmc_6_assy_2.jpg)
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Nice build! I really like the engine and those rocker arms and girdle looks very nice! If I may ask, can you share why you designed it like that? I am curious, as I am also planing on building a VGALT with a GMC. When I Was drag racing in the late 60's I ran into a bad vibration at about 5800 RPM. For the rocker arms I was thinking of modifying a roller rocker arm from another engine to work. What RPM are you going to spin the motor? Thank you for the information.
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Nice build! I really like the engine and those rocker arms and girdle looks very nice! If I may ask, can you share why you designed it like that? I am curious, as I am also planing on building a VGALT with a GMC. When I Was drag racing in the late 60's I ran into a bad vibration at about 5800 RPM. For the rocker arms I was thinking of modifying a roller rocker arm from another engine to work. What RPM are you going to spin the motor? Thank you for the information.
The reason I built the rockers and the girdle was because we plan to spin it to close to 7000 and when it was on the Spinttron all the movement in the valve train meant the engine could not spin to 7000. I tried modifying roller rockers and noticed the tip was sliding on the valve tip. Also the end rockers on the shaft are unstable and tended to move around more than the rest. That was the reasoning behind the girdle. However we also did allot of work on the block like aligning the all the lifter bores. The big part in this type of rocker is to get the proper angles on the tip and to find the optimal shape of the rocker and to eliminate flex. I went through a bunch of designs before finalizing on one. This is one of the first ones that I did. Its done on Unigraphics and its magnification is about 1000 to 1 or so. Since you are in the area come by the shop and I will give you the ten cent tour. I am off to Indy today but send me a PM and we can get together next week Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rocker_show_1.gif)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rocker_under.gif)
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7000 :-o Crank Hormonics :? :?
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I like how one end moves -- and the other doesn't -- howzat work?
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Tough valve springs!!! :-D
Pete
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:-o "Puter majic!" Crow
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I like how one end moves -- and the other doesn't -- howzat work?
When you do a stress analysis you have two kinds of things to apply, forces and constraints. I put a bearing constraint on the bore; lock one end fixed and put a force on the other end. Unless it was perfectly balanced when you put a force on both ends it would just spin. In real life the force comes on the push rod end and the tip is constrained to the valve.
7000 shocked Crank Hormonics
It took a lot work to work through the problem. It was almost like reinventing the wheel. :-o Least of it was to get the head to flow and make power at that RMP. So far so good, now I have to see if the great white dyno will show the same results as my budies dyno. :-o
Now I have to pack to go to the airport to catch the red eye to Indy. With the unification it should be a good 500! Tony :cheers:
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While I was at Indy over the weekend I had the chance to rummage around in a few shops at Gasoline Alley. I found the pedals off a Dallara IRL car and the rear speedway wing off a early 90's Lola Champ Car for the project. These parts will workout perfectly. Even the cord on the wing was what we were looking for. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/pedels1jpg.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rearwing.jpg)
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Sounds like a true "Garage Sale".
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Since I will be down in a couple of weeks to see Kent I thought I would post this. This is an old picture taken about four months ago of the nose plug before being sent down to Kent. Can anyone (except Kent) tell what this nose is off of. If you can, post a picture of the car its from. :cheers: Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/bodymold1jpg.jpg)
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Yo Mama?
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Actually Stan, the plug is from the car this nose is off of. I surely thought George would have guessed it. Kent and his band of suspects will take about 4-5" off the height. :-o Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/ohio1jpg.jpg)
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I'm lost -- Joe Law?
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The only nose we know is a '29 radiator shell -- and they seem to be getting smaller and slicker ala Poliform roadster bodies.
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Finished up the charge cooler ends today, still have to finish up the housing. The charger cooler element is a Cummins 855 oil cooler. Same style that was used on the Hill & Hill stream liner about 12-15 years ago. With a E motored Indy Buick V6, they went from 260 without the cooler to 363 by only adding the cooler. They were never able to back up the run. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/chargecooler1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/chargecooler3.jpg)
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Jerry Weigt made a very similar charge cooler for the Rocket Science Olds when it was running a Jimmy. What is the diameter and length of those tubes? Inquiring minds need to know. :)
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Neat setup, what size is the cooler and blower tubes? I think there bigger than they look if your using a Procharger.
How does the water part work?
Lookin good JL222 :cheers:
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Jerry Weigt made a very similar charge cooler for the Rocket Science Olds when it was running a Jimmy. What is the diameter and length of those tubes? Inquiring minds need to know. :)
Armond, I wish this was my idea, but it was Jerry who suggested it to me and built the original on the Hill & Hill stream liner along with few more for others. Jerry also wrote the original program to CNC the ends. This unit is made by Hayden( several companies make them for the Cummins 855)and the tube i.d. is .240 and are 16" long with a 174 cooling tubes. If you are going to build one make sure you get one that is made in the USA as the foreign units have less tubes and the i.d. on the tubes is smaller, making it about 30% less efficient.
Neat setup, what size is the cooler and blower tubes? I think there bigger than they look if your using a Procharger.
How does the water part work?
Lookin good JL222 :cheers:
The end openings are 3 1/2" and the whole thing is about 18" long end to end. There is a tube in the middle that has two AN fittings for the water. I am using an aluminum tube, but all the ones that Jerry built use a PVC tube (he likes it because it wont conduct heat and sweat). This ones from Mark Miller's door slammer. It was on the engine when he got into the 2 club and year later after a protest on the block they took his hat away. :-o It should be interesting this year with his new motor. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/chargecooler1-1.jpg)
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I am working on the design of the fuel tank this week. It will be an aluminum tank and will not have any foam in it. Would like to know what styles of baffles are being used and has anyone had any issues with the engine leaning out when the parachutes hits. This car will have different engines over time and I am trying to anticipate the future needs. Tony
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maguromic...We hit the parachutes and the fuel shut off at the same time ,their in line, and put the clutch in. We don't back down on the motor,no lean out problem.
JL222
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Anybody'
Why would the engine lean out when the chute is pulled? Is the tank ahead of the engine? Thats the only way I could see that happening. What am I missing here? I was planning on driving through the chute pull but I'm a rookie and don't have a lot of answers yet. Thanks for any information you might have.
Harv (willie)
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Willie/Harv/Hitz:
The engine could lean out when hitting the chute -- if the fuel pickup was near the rear of the tank. The fuel would more forward when the chute hits, starving the pickup.
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Did I miss why no foam was going to be used in the fuel tank?
J
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With out a baffle in the tank the fuel runs forward enough so the pick up tube can suck air. The old front engine dragsters had this problem with the tanks in the front and engines would stall after the burn outs. Same effect. We would stall every burn out until we had the tank cut open and the baffle installed. Sloshing fluids transfers weight as well.
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maguromic...We hit the parachutes and the fuel shut off at the same time ,their in line, and put the clutch in. We don't back down on the motor,no lean out problem.
JL222
JL222, Thats kind of what I was thinking. Just wasn't sure what the guys with the big motors were doing. Currently we don't have a big inch motor lined up, but need to plan for it somewhere down the line.
Did I miss why no foam was going to be used in the fuel tank?
J
We are not running foam because it wont hold up to nitro. This car is kind of a community car with many engines and drivers. So we are trying to to anticipate future needs. Compounding that is the tank will sit behind the front suspension and will require either a cavity in the center (what we are leaning towards) or a hole through the tank for the steering shaft.
So far the only things that all of us working on the car have agreed on is that it will be 10 gallons, have two -12 pickups and the top will have twin 6x10 inch plates. One will have the dry break and the other will have fittings for six -8 return lines and a roll over valve. I will post the first draft of the drawing next week. Tony
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Still working on the tank layout and drawing and its going slower than anticipated. Just not enough space to get everything including the inter cooler tank (which sits behind the fuel tank) and other stuff squeezed in to a small space the way we like it. So we moved to the back of the car to tidy up the alternator layout and take a break from the fuel tank drawing. We went with a micro "V" belt and the used a modified Honda S2000 crank pulley on the axle. As soon as the tank drawing is done I will post it. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/alternatorview2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Alternatorview1.jpg)
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It posted twice, so I deleted one. :?
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Our Procharger housings came back from the extrude honing shop today and we were disappointed to say the least. They still left some of the casting flaws, so back in the box and off for a redo. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/prochargerhousing.jpg)
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After a lot of redraws the fuel tank drawing is finally finished. The top plate is machined with a “spillage bin” for the dry break and the other panel is a standard Fuel Safe size plate and will contain the vents and return lines. The bottom sump is pretty self-baffled and will have two –12 fittings, with the main baffles feeding fuel to the sump. The baffles are designed to fit through the top access panel and bolt to the floor and each other and to use the steering shaft thru hole as an upper brace. The tank is mounted to a bottom tray and held down by 4 long studs that go through the top machined panel and down to the tray. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/023-040afueltankassy.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/fueltankinchassis2.jpg)
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Took the day off from work and worked on rebuilding the air jacks for the car. Since there are no scatter shields available for this transaxle and engine combination. The next steps will be to design the scatter shield and input shaft for the transaxle in the next few weeks.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/jacks2jpg.jpg)
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Tony
Grant King air jacks. So cool, Good Job
Same as I have on the liner. Got any spares?
Or rebuild kits?
I have only the 4 well used units that I traded for 8 years ago.
They work extremely well.
When I had the car on the salt in 04 it made working so much easier, sure surprised a lot of folks.
Rick Byrnes
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Rick,
I don’t have any more of the Grant King air jacks, but you might want to check with AJ Watson at Indy. He ended up with a lot of the stuff from Grant’s estate. I might be able to help you with the rebuild kits though. We made them up, and if I can remember I will check the next time I am in the shop. You are right, life is a lot easier with the air jacks. Tony
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Tony,
Can't tell the scale very well from the pic. What is the total lift of the air jacks?
TIA :-)
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Tony,
Can't tell the scale very well from the pic. What is the total lift of the air jacks?
TIA :-)
The body is 16” tall and has a lift range of 11” and I believe each jack is rated for about 1600lbs. These were on my IMSA car and could lift a 3000lbs car with ease. Tony
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Thanks, Tony:
I'm assuming about a 4.5" diameter piston giving you the 1600 lbs at 100psi air pressure? I have been considering a ground-based system rather than the in-car scenario.
I sure do appreciate all the drawings and engineering you are sharing with us. Hope to come by the shop sometime. :-) :-)
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We thought of building some external jacks, but we couldn’t figure out how to lift the front without taking the nose off. The other option was to build four jacks and lift from the sides. The thought of packing them in the trailer and unpacking them made for an easy choice. Besides most of this car is built from parts off other cars and I had the Grant King air jacks on the shelf.
But if you have a roadster other than a modified, and have some steel to grab, you could build something like these air jacks. They pick up the car in the front and back, and shouldn't be that hard to build. Do drop by the shop sometime. :-) Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/airjacks.jpg)
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Hmmmm. . . good point about packaging them for the trip :-D
Do the jacks have a secondary safety to prevent contraction, like a pin through the shaft or a latch? Or do you use jack stands or?
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There are no pins or latches for a safety. I use an elephant foot to slide on to the jack and then let the air pressure out. There are two pieces, depending on the desired height. I have also seen them with wheels so you can roll them around in the garage. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/elifantfoot.jpg)
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With some of the shapes of cars in LSR, sometimes they don’t roll and end up horizontal and sliding. To simulate that we did some simulations of events on the fuel cell and vent and found a flaw in the ATL style ball valve. On some occasions it didn’t close at near horizontal angles. The new design we came up with uses a puck to push against the ball to consistently close it at near horizontal angles.
If anyone cares to know more I can post a better drawing comparing both the ball system and our puck system type valves with better explanations. Tony
Normal Level
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/dsicriminarorventclosedr2.jpg)
Near horizontal level with the puck pushing against the ball closing the valve shut.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/discrimiinatortippedr2.jpg)
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Very interesting, Tony. Yes, please post additional dwg or explanation. I had to save those pics and them zoom 2x to see the detail clearly. In both cases it looks like the ball is seated. However, without your puck design, I can see in the bottom pic how the ball could possibly not seat, if your dimensions and scale are the actual ATL device. Floating on the fluid, it looks like the ball could be too far from the seat to seal effectively. Or, has the added feature to incorporate your puck moved the ball farther away from the seat than the actual ATL device?
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My drawing is not a modified ATL unit, but a design of my own. It is to scale and the cage for the puck and ball bolt in from the bottom. Fuel Safe does make a unit that is spring loaded, but it did not work in my application.
The issue with the ATL type float- and-steel-ball type roll over valves and discriminators is that they are particularly ineffective at near horizontal angles. At angles approaching 90 degrees from vertical, the lift from the fluid is acting to pry the ball away from the lower part of the sealing seat and the steel weight ball is doing nothing. At horizontal, the only sealing action is if the fluid escaping carries the float ball with it. There is no effective force for a sealing action. At past horizontal, the steel ball eventually is heavy enough to "sink" the float ball and create a seal.
I have redesign my valve with a puck and by using a "puck" instead of a steel weight ball, the center of gravity of the weight can be off center from the center of rotation so the force is applied to the float ball at lower rollover angles. In effect, the weight is made to fall "uphill" about 30 degrees before a ball would even start to move. At horizontal, the puck is exerting force on the sealing ball even when it is in its least advantageous position. In actual inversion, the puck serves as a dead weight in the same fashion as the ball.
If any one want, PM me there email address and I can send a pdf of this chart for better viewing. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/discriminatordiscussionr2.jpg)
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Why no just a proper vent? They can be made to not LEAK in any roll over.
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Why no just a proper vent? They can made to not LEAK in any roll over.
The problem is that most vents use some sort of ball system. They all close well in a roll over. But the issue is when the car is at angles approaching 90 degrees from vertical and sometimes sliding on its side without rolling over. Then you have a potential problem of fuel leakage. We ran some tests up to 80 mph with a fuel cell and a ball type vent valve at different angles and found fuel leakage in some instance.
Yes, maybe the ball type valve will work 95 percent of time (this is why Fuel Safe also has a spring loaded valve). But we didn’t like the 5 percent possibility. So we eliminated that 5 percent from the equation. Tony
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Tony, Thanks for sharing the closure valve. In re plumbing my Fuel Safe Bladder/cell, I am using an ATL 1" valve. I hadn't thought of the "on your side" failure, but sure will look at using your idea. Even a little force to help the ball is a great idea.
Keep it coming.
I'm back out in the shop cuttin & weldin
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I tested the roll over valve I had purchased(without the tank in the car) and found that it flowed fuel from about 20 deg to about 160 deg. I bent a piece of tubing around the rear edge of the the tank like someone on this forum suggested and tested it. It would leak a little fuel as you rotated the tank but not flow when you stopped turning the tank. Of course if you laid it on the back of the tank it would just run out.
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I think a roll over valve with a light coil spring pushing on a nylon ball would work in all positions. Anybody making these?
Harv
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Harv, Fuel Safe makes a spring loaded roll over /vent valve. It didn’t work for us as it was too small to work with the dry break. Both ATL and Fuel Safe makes a nylon ball that is compatible with gas and alcohol / methanol (though not nitro). We went with the Fuel Safe ball, as it was a bigger unit. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/fuelballjpg.jpg)
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. . . We went with the Fuel Safe ball, as it was a bigger unit. Tony
Just to clarify . . . you are going to incorporate your puck design into the Fuel safe?
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Yes, we are using the puck system. We have built a complete new roll over /vent valve of our own design. This is the ball we are using with the puck system. Tony
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Your front anti roll bar idea is neat. I fought that battle and finaly ended up with a compact conventional design but your design would have fit much better!
BHarmon
H/BFL 7077
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Tony: Back in post #55 you showed a pic of your air box. You mentioned your were going to do some CFD anaylsis on the flow. Did you ever get a chance to do that? Results?
It has a unique, NURBS look to it. It is a solid model or a lofted and surfaced wire-frame? Are you going to NC it out of billet or do a sheet metal fab? Sorry for so many questions but this is a fasinating build and a very rare opportunity to see the design proccess taking place. :-)
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Bharmon , Thanks for the compliment. Some of this build is dictated by what we have on the shelf. Since this is a budget build we try to use stuff we already have. The ARB we are using is off a Reynard Indy car and run about $75 or less on the used race car parts market. After figuring out the mounting locations I just designed the front bar that bolts to the existing ARB. Tony
Reynard ARB before modifying.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rollbar2jpg.jpg)
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Elon, I haven’t had a chance to do the CFD on this yet and its on the to do list. NURBS does make life a lot easier. Once I figure out everything I need the part will be done on a CNC. But I still need to finish the head first though. My ideal plenum needs to hold enough air for the engine at its peak and be able to distribute it evenly without much pressure drop. This type of plenum is not my idea. When I started looking for plenum designs I looked at what the LMP cars were running and first noticed the Audi version and also saw that other forms of racing are using very similar designs for their optimization.
Keep the questions coming, I have no secrets (maybe some :-o) in racing.
From the Audi web site.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/AUDIR10TDiengine.jpg)
Ford Rally car Engine Plenum.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/fordairbox.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/ralleyairbox.jpg)
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Here is a pic of a Ferrari F-40. A classic example of Bernoulli at his finest. (Decreasing radius air box) The splitting of the intercoolers for packaging reasons is another nice idea. What LSR car doesn't care about packaging! :wink:
My apologies if others consider this "thread drift". Since Tony shared his air box design I thought another interesting idea might be acceptable.
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This is the preliminary bell-housing scheme. I will still need to fine-tune everything. Originally we were going to weld a bell-housing together, but after looking at what is available we were able to find a unit by Quicktime that could be modified. Due to ground clearance issues we went with a 110-tooth flywheel and clutch combo and had to flatten the bottom of the bell-housing to make it all work.
To clear the reverse mount starter it would have taken a major hole in the bell-housing and instead we used an adapter to mate the starter directly to the mid-plate. This will eliminate tolerance and weld deflection issues with the bell-housing and makes “tuning” the starter adjustments to the ring gear straightforward and reliable.
This particular mid-plate is designed for the GMC 6 and the Chevy / Aurora IRL engine. We also have one with a SBC, BBC and V4F pattern.
I want to thank Quicktime for sending us a drawing of their bell housing to work with. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/bellshousingassy12r.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/bellshousingassy34fjpg.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/bellshousingassy34r.jpg)
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Forgot to add: For the bell-housing support, I am thinking of some non-structural support just to keep it approximately aligned while the engine is being installed. The long input shaft of the trans axle has the same issue. For this I would like to use some type of bushing in the clutch release sleeve maybe delrin or Teflon – it wont touch in service, but needs not to melt). I hate battles with trying to get input shafts to align, and this one would be a tough one without some forethought here. The starter will come in and out easily and wont need this type of treatment (hopefully). Tony
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Can you temporarily install 2 or 3 studs into the transaxle? (long enough to ensure input shaft engagement into the clutch) They would act as guides as everything is slipped together. Then remove them, one at a time, as you replace with bolts. Can't tell if you have the clearance to remove the studs, though. Great pictures. :-)
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That’s a good idea, but unfortunately it wont work with me. My imput shaft is about 18” long from the trans axle flange and also there is another housing that bolts to the trans axle flange and to the back of the bell-housing. One positive thing though is from my experience; the long imput shafts are very good at softening engine power pulses and improving traction. Next on the list is to design the dry sump tank to fit its location. Tony
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Yikes! 18" . . . but great for the salt. :wink:
What oil filter are you going to run and where located? Incorporated into the tank?
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Yikes! 18" . . . but great for the salt. :wink:
What oil filter are you going to run and where located? Incorporated into the tank?
I am not worried about the length as it wont effect the amount of torque the shaft will take. It makes the “springiness” of it change, but the cross section (limited by the spline section) is not changed. If gets very long, you get a different issue, but this isn’t all that long compared to the length of a half shaft which may carry 3-4 times as much torque. Plus, I think the CG issue is very important in car stability and we needed to shift the engine a little forward. You hit the nail on the head, its great for the salt. :-)
One of the spots for the dry sump tank we have looked at is in between the trans axle and the bell-housing. Need to figure out a way to bring the two scavenge lines from the pump to the tank without aerating the oil? One idea I have is to snake it around like some NASCAR tanks. But its a lot harder on a square tank than on a NASCAR style round tank (if you want I can post a picture of what type of NASCAR tank I am talking about). Another problem we have is anticipating the future needs and trying to build for it. But I think a 5 gallon capacity tank should do the trick, a little overkill for the GMC.
I am not an engine guy, but having been around some dyno testing on filters and filter mounts I know if we don’t do this correctly we can loose HP, and on HP limited motors that can be huge. Any ideas let me know. Tony
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If I understand the principal correctly (not guaranteed :-D); surface tension helps to remove air entrainment. Basically, if the oil could be spread out on an unlimited flat surface the thin film develops less surface tension than the bubble surface area and it bursts. The conical form inside round tanks is just trying to package as much surface area in as small an enclosure as possible. I have been considering a square tank for packaging reasons. I think an Oberg 60u screen set-up, welded into the top of the tank, would help in filtering out (or breaking up) the bubbles. After that the oil would flow onto a set of baffles to continue the release of air.
http://store.obergfilters.com/8inch.html
60u is just about my bearing clearance. I don’t want 60u particles passing through my bearings and will filter it down further. The problem is the pressure drop and whether to put a finer filter in the tank or an additional filter inline.:| I would like to do an experiment with a Plexiglas window or sumptin to see what is going on. Don’t know if it will ever happen, though.
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" I have been considering a square tank for packaging reasons. I think an Oberg 60u screen set-up, welded into the top of the tank, would help in filtering out (or breaking up) the bubbles." This is exactly what our engine builder, Keith Dorton of Automotive Specialists, uses on his dyno. The dyno oil tank is shaped like a "V" and has a pair of 8" Obergs (mounted horizontally) forming the top. It also has a plexi window in the front for observation. You can see that the Obergs deaerate the oil extremely well. I will probably create a similar tank for next year's racing as it will solve several small problems in our RMR. Tony, say hi to Sean Mclean for me . vic
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It’s been a while since I updated the build and finally the bell-housing package has been finished and I have something to post.. The big difference from the earlier design is we have added a rear support for the starter motor. The only thing left is to design some type of support to hold everything up when the engine is removed. Tony
This is the GMC 6 and IRL Aurora rear engine plate.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Bellshousingassyview2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Bellshousingassyview3.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Bellshousingassyview1.jpg)
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Wow! Tony. Take all the time you need to make beautiful solid models like that. It is worth the wait. :-D
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Hey Tony, is everything still in the design phase or have you started the build side of the project? Looks like your gonna have one special roadster can't wait to see it completed. :cheers:
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Troy you said it before I did, lets see some photos of your build looks like its going to be trick.
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Troy and Mike, we are still in the planning stages and only recently started machining the suspension parts and making some of the tanks. We still have to draw the chassis and water tanks.
A bunch of friends are building this for one of our good friends. Other than me the others all work on different teams during race season and have only a few hours here and there to work on the car. My work takes me away out of the country often and leaves little time to work on it as well. I think at the rate we are going it looks as though it will be 2011 when the car will run. But I will post updates as the parts get finished and just maybe it might run in 2010.
I have been leaving the frame for last as that is the toughest part for me. I want to design it in a way that the driver cell is protected from any scenario that can be thrown at it. Keeping that in mind we have designed all the other parts to work in unison. Currently we are leaning towards a structure that can progressively collapse absorbing the energy without compromising the driver cell. I hope to have the frame drawing uploaded soon for comments.
Saltfever, thanks for the compliment. The pictures below are of the bell housing in the car. Only the back of the frame where the suspension and trans axle attach are finalized. The other tubes are just there to show how the engine will fit. The two engines that are drawn are the GMC 6 and the IRL Aurora. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Includebody121109v2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Includebody121109.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Includebody121109V3.jpg)
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I suspect that a WHOLE bunch of folks are going to STUDY, admire, and stand in awe of this one,the RPM's that you plan on turning that 302 without turning the crank into "shatter glass" got my attention. :cheers:
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I suspect that a WHOLE bunch of folks are going to STUDY, admire, and stand in awe of this one RPM that the plan on turning that 302 without turning the crank into shatter glass got my attention. :cheers:
Huh! :? :?
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Tony, that alternator ratio looks something like 3:1. Assuming a shaft speed of 2,500-2,900rpm do you need to spin the alternator that fast?
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I suspect that a WHOLE bunch of folks are going to STUDY, admire, and stand in awe of this one RPM that the plan on turning that 302 without turning the crank into shatter glass got my attention. :cheers:
Sparky, We are making our own rods, crank and bottom girdle to help keep it from flexing. One of the ideas we have been playing with for the crank on the GMC was to build an even fire crank for it. Currently the firing order on the GMC is 1-5-3-6-2-4. We want to run it like an old Norton or other British twin and bring both cylinders next to each other up at once and fire the other at 120 degrees. So the new firing order would be 1-3-5-2-4-6. Basically it would be like having three two-cylinder engines hooked together. Another plus side would be with the even fire crank the siamese intake problem of the stock style head could be solved with the full intake charge going to one cylinder. This is nothing new, I think JD mentioned sometime ago that Bruce Crower had a similar design. Tony
Tony, that alternator ratio looks something like 3:1. Assuming a shaft speed of 2,500-2,900rpm do you need to spin the alternator that fast?
Saltfever, we use a McLaren Electronics 100 amp alternator, with a maximum continuous operating speed of 18,000 rpm. We worked with there engineers to get the pulley combo correct to optimize the unit with the least amount of drag. Tony
Here is a link to the alternator http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/products/all/alt_wound_g_type_%28100amp%29.asp
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This has got to be one of the highest tech builds going on, looking forward to seeing this thing in steel and on the salt.
Lots of technology out there that is just now filtering into LSR. In my noob/no car world I see the use of aerodynamics and control surfaces the answer to letting some of these high horsepower cars use more of their available power, if they are only using half throttle you could trade off some drag.
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It’s been a while since I had a chance to work on the project as my day job has kept me busy. Anyway I was at (Sears Point, for us that still call it that like me) Infeneon Raceway working on the driver cell wooden mock up, when it was suggested by one of the teams there that some nice carbon tubs are available from last year’s cars.
Well it didn’t take long to convince ourselves us that this was the path of least resistance and decided to go that rout. Thanks to O’Neil Racing the new tub will put us about 6 months ahead of schedule. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tub1jpg.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tub2jpg.jpg)
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You got that right, Tony. It will always be Sears Point to me. Corporate PR comes and goes but the geography will never change. Glad to see you are back. :-)
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Good call on the tub Tony. They are a really sturdy piece.
Pete
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Damn straight it's Sears Point! (Just as the local track is Charlotte Motor Speedway). I saw Joe, Jr. Huffaker @ PRI and he told me that ALL the buildings in the former padddock are gone! @#$% progress! Nostalgia sure ain't what it usta be (or something like that). Your RMR is going to blow everyone's minds when it gets to the salt. Keep up the good work and say hi to Sean Mc for me. vic
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Yep, Its still Sears Point and nothing is going to change that! Vic, I had lunch with Sean yesterday and he also said to say hi. Steve took home the tub to model the tub and chassis structure. It will take a bit to get it done as Steve is re-engineering the suspension on the Flying Lizard Porsche after the powers to be penalized them with a 5 mm ride height difference. They are crunching to get the car ready for the Sebering 12 hrs next month and the LSR car is on the back burner till it’s done. Tony
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Finally finished the charge cooler. The biggest problems were turning the ends for the Wiggins clamps and the ID of the 5” aluminum tube was out of round and the cooler element would not fit in properly. My buddy who made it didn’t have the proper fixture to hold it while turning it (almost 18’ long)”. Finally the parts are starting to come together. Tony
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It was too good to be true. The tub is 3” too tall and would need to have the floor cut and have the height of the tub shortened. This will turn out to be major surgery and I don’t know how the integrity of the tub will be after a major modifications like this. It looks like we will have to go back to the original plan and build our own tub. The other tuff part on the chassis design has been anticipating what events can occur in a crash and to design for it. I will post chassis and tub drawings soon. Nothing is easy, but that’s the fun part of it. Tony
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Something I learned in the AF from TSgt Orland T Cox.... "nothing difficult is ever easy"... :cheers:
Great build, keep up the great work and photos.
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This is a basic sketch of how the driver will sit in the car. I am using 24” for dash reference till we can settle on the actual lean back of the driver. But this should give a better idea of where the bodywork could go from the “nose cross section to” “drivers area cross section” to “Ford bodywork” mate. The roll cage is an approximate and won’t be finalized till the driver’s position is finalized. The ground view is about 35’ from the driver. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/driverrefsideview.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/driverreftopview.jpg)
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Tony - Can't you move the driver more backwardser? Or do you need room for a straight 8? :roll: vic
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Vic, Actually the driver will sit inside the cowl area. I arbitrarily put the driver without modifying the body model so it’s easy to visualize the seat angle. The only 8 planed for this a AA engine eventually. The 6-cylinder block in the model is longer than a BBC, so I think we are safe with the space. Tony
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Still working on the frame drawing, so in the meantime Steve did some preliminary nose and front of cowl body drawings. Ignore the spots where the tubing is sticking out as we are still changing the frame drawing around. Also missing are the windscreen, rear wing, headrest and parachute faring and the rear undertray. The drivers’ position and safety honeycomb drivers cell are determined along with the splitter on the nose. From the ground to the top of the roll bar is 32 ½”, 2” of this is from the ground to the bottom of the car, with front from the step in front of the cowl to the nose at 18”. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/roughbodyworkschemefv041710.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/roughbodyworkschemesv041710.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/roughbodyworkschemw041710a-1.jpg)
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Tony that looks good, I would make the front tire print the some as the rear. But thats just me LOL thanks for the visit.
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Mike, thanks for the suggestion. JimL suggested the same thing, but unfortunately with the independent front suspension, the lengths of the arms were dictated by the geometry. I will revisit the front suspension after the frame design is done.
By the way if any of you guys want to see a first class roadster build, get down to Mike’s digs and check out his roadster. I could of spent hours looking at it (if it wasn’t for work) unfortunately I forgot the camera. Thanks for the tour. Tony
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thanks Tony
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The driver cell layout and drawing was finished today. It took a few redraws to get all the parts to fit one 4x8 sheet of ¾” honeycomb material, but the wait was worth it. We are finally getting closer and this should give a lot more of added protection to the driver. Before anyone starts with the comments of the shape of the cell, we like to call it a “comfy drivers compartment”. Being racers we are just a little superstitious about that other word. Tony
Front View
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/driverstubfv.jpg)
Side View
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/driverstubsv.jpg)
See Through View
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/semitransparenttub.jpg)
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It’s been a while since I updated the build. We have been working on the body doing CFD runs with different models. Even with the monster computing power of our CFD sponsor, some of the CFD runs have taken close to 20 hours of computing time. Soon as we are done with the CFD runs we will build a scale model to run in the Swift wind tunnel. Tony
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After testing a few windshield configurations, here is a peek at what looks to be the final windshield configuration. It still not finished and we still need to run a few more tests, but its getting close. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/driveraccessref6810.jpg)
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Looks great Tony....... hope you can do the bail out. :cheers:
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Michael, The picture might look a little restrictive, but it’s only an illusion. The first two pictures are better shots of it. There will be about six guys driving the car and they will all need to fit through the opening depicted in the last picture. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/windscreenpeekisofv6810NEW.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/windscreenpeeksv6810New.jpg)
This is what I sent everyone to mock-up in cardboard. A few of the guys will need to go on diet. LOL
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/evacaccesscheck.jpg)
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Tony, bring them all to WoS and we will let y'all jump in and out of the lakester.... :-o
Is it possible to make the windshield cowling flip out of the way for entry and exit? just a thought.
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Diets are good :-D we all have to get down to driving weight,
One of us has a BIG butt- hard to steer
one of us has a BIG belly- hard to steer
One of us is big and tall-has issues shifting if weighs over 230
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Sometimes getting thru the hole isn't the biggest problem. Sometimes it's getting up into the opening -- being able to grab something to help you into an exit position. It's hard to raise you butt when your legs are out in front of you. And the older we get, the less strength and flexibility we have (or at least I have).
As Willie says -- just some thoughts.
Stan
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hand holds and grab straps are a REQUIREMENT for me :-(
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Is it possible to make the windshield cowling flip out of the way for entry and exit?
stainless, section 4V, definition of an open car, the driver must be able to exit the car without moving any panels.
Jim
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Stainless, As jdincau pointed out in the rule book, roadsters cant move any panel to get out. However the windshield and front panel will be able to tilt for the driver to get in and out except at tech when they will have to get out without moving the panel.
Sometimes getting thru the hole isn't the biggest problem. Sometimes it's getting up into the opening -- being able to grab something to help you into an exit position. It's hard to raise you butt when your legs are out in front of you. And the older we get, the less strength and flexibility we have (or at least I have).
As Willie says -- just some thoughts.
Stan
You have to slide down and up and twist at the same time to get out. Its especially tuff for me with all the hardware I have in my legs. :cry:
hand holds and grab straps are a REQUIREMENT for me :-(
One of the things we looked at very hard in the design was the egress out of the tub. We incorporated some trap doors into the tub for hands and feet Tony
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I studied you dimensions, very similar to my lakester ---but I can get my legs back to come UP---as I see it your problem is going to be the vertical part----how do you get your legs back under you to get up :?
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I studied you dimensions, very similar to my lakester ---but I can get my legs back to come UP---as I see it your problem is going to be the vertical part----how do you get your legs back under you to get up :?
Sparky, It’s tight getting in and out, but after your comments we revisited the windshield today and decided to shift it forward about 4”. Now the highest point of the windshield will be vertical with the steering wheel. This will affect the air openings for the engine and everything behind the windshield. Now I have to make adjustments on the model and re-run the CFD. I will post updated pictures soon, but till then here is the old windshield configuration with the body off for better visualization. Thanks for looking out Sparky!!!Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/windscreendriveregress61010.jpg)
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Tony --
Take a look at the hand bars at the top of the windshield sticking out from the front hoop on a Top Fuel dragster.
When we made our new set-up on our street roadster, we still had quite a hole in the tonneau, but nothing to grab hold of. The steering wheel's under the tonneau. My knees are bent to about a 60º included angle and you can apply a lot of pressure without anything happening. 'bout the only thing you can grab hold of is the windshield -- and that ain't good.
Reminds me of the first days of Disneyland in the 50's -- they had an annimated Lincoln who got up from the chair to talk to you. He had his hands on his knees. Try it yourself. Put your hands straight out to your knees, don't bend your elbows, and try to get up. Good luck.
Stan Back
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Tony: Where did you get that human figure for your model? 3rd party software or part of your CAD?
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Tony, looks good. 3D modeling software is great but human interface is always tricky. In your case getting a human in and out of the car. Another area is serviceability; I've designed quiet a few things (Pro/E) then after producing a prototype find out that things were tighter then imagined. When things are on a big screen in front of you it's pretty easy to underestimate how much room there actually is.
You may want to consider doing a crude mock up of this just to be sure it’s what you expect. You have a real advantage with the tools your using just don't loose touch of how things are going to be in real life, I've been guilty of this myself...
Thanks for sharing
Josh
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Tony: Where did you get that human figure for your model? 3rd party software or part of your CAD?
My friend created the Ergoman starting from a Solidworks model done by some German guy. He added and modified to it (and learned how to use an online German to English translator) as everything was in German. Now its in a bunch of size and he used his size to get the proportions of the limbs and torso and neck pivot points, helmet size, etc. Then he applied them to everyone ells model that will be driving the car. Them he made a seated position configuration to fit the car. The only thing that didn’t change was we used his foot size of 11 ½ and his helmet size large HJC. Since the new European helmets are somewhat longer we left enough space to the forward roll hoop so any one that wants to can use one.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/ergomandimensionquery.jpg)
Another area is serviceability; I've designed quiet a few things (Pro/E) then after producing a prototype find out that things were tighter then imagined. When things are on a big screen in front of you it's pretty easy to underestimate how much room there actually is.
Josh
Josh, That’s always the case. We ran into that problem with the fuel tank, It looked great on the screen but when we went to machine the parts, my buddy the machinist found a change we could do that saved a lot of trouble at assembly. We have been building crude mock-ups as we go. Tony
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Thanks, Tony. How come you changed your avitar? :-D
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I changed it again, I couldn't help myself. :-D
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I guess I'll have to add mine. Not as good as yours though. :-D
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Finished up the updated windshield configuration. Gained a bunch more room by shifting the windshield forward. The windshield looks a little off set, but the driver is shifted to the left a bit off center to clear all the plumbing lines on the right side.Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/t2windscreenclosetv.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/t2winscreenclosesv.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/t2windscreenfv.jpg)
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Tony---that thing is going to be so so SWEET :cheers:
what all do you have up front that requires so many or big pipes that require that much off set :?
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Tony---that thing is going to be so so SWEET :cheers:
what all do you have up front that requires so many or big pipes that require that much off set :?
Sparky, The tub is shifted about 2”. The engine water tank has two 2” lines and there is also the fuel tank and the intercooler tank along with the cool suit tank up front. Then add to that all the wiring running down that side. Good thing is everything will be in modules so servicing will be very easy. Tony
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"...servicing will be very easy..."
Yeah -- that's what they ALL say -- before. Then it comes down to servicing the car in the pit -- all of a sudden it isn't quite as easy. :-o
Nice looking race car, though. I look forward to seeing it in person.
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I sure like those pictures ? What kind of software was used to create them...
We layout our cars with graph paper and a few pencils,,,,
Your way looks better.
Charles
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"...servicing will be very easy..."
Yeah -- that's what they ALL say -- before. Then it comes down to servicing the car in the pit -- all of a sudden it isn't quite as easy. :-o
If think it will be easy, it just might be. Kind of like Alice clicking her shoes together. :-o But I think you correct in your assumption. I have yet to work on an easy race car.
I sure like those pictures ? What kind of software was used to create them...
Charles
We use Solidworks for most of the work. We have several files that go back and forth with several of us adding to them. Three of the guys are working on cars at LeMans this weekend and have been gone all month. Tony
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"Kind of like Alice clicking her shoes together."
Can't get any easier than that Tony. :evil:
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:-o "Ceptin it was Dorothy!
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:-o "Ceptin it was Dorothy!
It was don intentionally to show how impossible it is. Armond AKA Rebelce was the only one that caught on. Tony :cheers:
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Finished the first run on the under tray and rear diffuser. There are two tunnels plus the center short tunnel. It should make several hundred pounds of downforce at a pretty low drag penalty (probably 1/3 of the drag from the same downforce from a wing). Just in case we need more downforce the center is designed to add a double diffuser in the middle. When we CFD the car with a flat bottom several weeks ago we tried all sorts of different wing configurations. The best one it liked was our bat wing that Steve designed. It will be interesting to see how the new bottom will like the bat wing. Depending on what the CFD tells us it may see a few more strakes in the tunnels also. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/wheelairchannelbetterview.jpg)
Bat Wing
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/batwingd2nov07view2.jpg)
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Hi Tony,
I've been watching your thread and design process and it's simply amazing!! I can't wait to see you guys building the components and putting it together.
I'd be very interested to see some how to's along the way, us ameteurs need all the tips and inspiration we can get!
Steve
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Steve, Thanks for the kind words. Currently we are machining all the suspension parts and I will post them as they become available. I also asked for some of the CFD screen shots for posting as well. Tony
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Since I mentioned the seat on the air brakes discussion I have had a few PM’s on what type of seat I was going to run. It’s not any particular type of seat (we will be pouring our own seat for each driver) but we will be incorporating straps to pull the driver out with the seat as well as to secure the driver to the seat. In the event the driver needs to be extracted from the car, we are going to use the seat to immobilize the driver prior to extraction (its a lot safer than trying to slide a back board in). I haven't checked with the safety crews yet, but most likely we will need to give the attaching cross straps to the safety crews for their kits. The best method is not to use this system, but its just one of the safety features we are building into the car. Tony
This is a similar F1 seat with the straps.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Arowsseat.jpg)
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Finished up the charge cooler ends today, still have to finish up the housing. The charger cooler element is a Cummins 855 oil cooler. Same style that was used on the Hill & Hill stream liner about 12-15 years ago. With a E motored Indy Buick V6, they went from 260 without the cooler to 363 by only adding the cooler. They were never able to back up the run. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/chargecooler1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/chargecooler3.jpg)
Tony, how are you guys sealing the ends and tube to the cooler element and outer tube? I assume the ones Jerry mades with PVC he is glueing somehow? I would worry about the solder on the tubes to end plates if soldering ..unless you used a lower temp solder.
Hans
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Hans, Everything is bolted together with four rods that run the length of the cooler. We had to sacrifice four tubes to achieve this. Because of the tube configuration, the ends have to be clocked perfectly to line up (I have added alignment marks on the ends). I used 70 Buna N, size 250 “O” rings on the ends for sealing, and this is how Jerry does it with the PVC tube also. Last month he switched over to the aluminum tube as well when Mark Miller's engine was on the dyno and the PVC intercooler housing started to melt from the heat. :-o
If you are going to use something like this, don’t forget to add the drain back lines for the water. It can get very cold at night at both Bonneville and Elmo and the water might freeze in the tubes. Tony
Ends have been modified for Wiggins clamps.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/wiggins_topjpg.jpg)
“O” ring and machined weld-on for the –12 water lines.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/o_ringjpg.jpg)
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nice Tony, yeah I would be leary of pressurized vessel that saw lots of temperature and pressure differential that was glued together...not that it couldn't or wouldn't work for a long time, but it would be in the back of my head all the time as well as the non-serviceable aspect. Looks like you guys modified the tubes right at the plate so they sit flush with a little radius?
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I had a few PM's asking me to post a picture of the body with the mesh for CFD. Without giving up any IP, this is an early model of the body without the rear wing and suspension ready for some CFD runs. So far each run has taken about 10 hours each. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Mesh.jpg)
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Opps! Where did the picture go, Tony? Went to photobucket and couldn't find it there either. bummer . . .
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Looks awesome Tony. I can't wait to see the real thing.
Pete
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Tony, I didnt know you were building a liner :evil: LOL
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Tony, I didnt know you were building a liner :evil: LOL
Mike, Not all of us have the big HP number of your roadster :-o, we have to let the aero help us a little, besides at 21’ long and 2 ½’ feet tall its close a liner or at least a lakester. :evil: I have a batch of tea set a side for you. Do you want me to send it to you or bring it to the salt? Tony
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Opps! Where did the picture go, Tony? Went to photobucket and couldn't find it there either. bummer . . .
I haven't touched it and I just checked and its still there. If you want PM me your email as I cant seem to find it, and I will send you a jpeg. Tony
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Thanks, Tony. Since others can see it, it is obviously "cockpit errors" at my end. I'll work on the "red X" thing.
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I don't know the secret handshake either even when signed into photobucket in another window. :cry:
Mike
But I'll bet that that little red x will be really fast. :mrgreen:
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Surprise, surprise, it's a Microsoft thing!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
It comes up fine on my MAC. It comes up fine on my PC when I run Google Chrome. Same PC running Explorer results in a little red x.
The gnomes from Redmond strike again! :? :? :?
Pete
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Just for the information of those running a PC I loaded Google Chrome by mistake at one point and I've left it on the machine ever since. The reason is that it does things that have been problematic with Internet Explorer. I still run Explorer normally but when I run into issues with Explorer I switch to Chrome and I can do things like seeing the above picture and participating in the Tuesday chat sessions. I'm not savvy enough with PCs to overcome the issues that Microsoft chooses to create.
Pete
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P.S.
Comes up on Firefox W/ Windows XP.
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In that case, I suspect that it might be the sight software.
Mike
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Tony - Please stop referring to your RMR as a lakester! :-o Pretty soon some other roadster toads will start formin' committees to tighten up the rules on us rear-engined guys :evil: Heard the lakester comment about ours last year, and its way taller and shorter than yours. :-D Wish I was still workin' @`Sears Point and could be in on your project - it will be the best RMR ever. Hope to see you @ Speedweek; I'll be there for sure. vic
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Pretty soon some other roadster toads will start formin' committees to tighten up the rules on us rear-engined guys :evil: Heard the lakester comment about ours last year, and its way taller and shorter than yours. vic
Vic, I know what you mean, thanks to you guys we had to redesign the back of the car in anticipation of the new faring rule passing this year. I guess some guys would rather rule there way into keeping records. Most likely some toad didn’t like your fairings. At least you guys aren’t running a vintage engine, then it would be worse. Enough of my ranting.
I wish I could take the credit for the design, but there are a lot of guys from different backgrounds that have contributed on the project. That diverse background is what makes this car and gives its soul. Lets catch up on the salt at Speed Week, I will be helping Pete Aardema if runs his liner. Tony
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I just loaded Firefox and the pic shows up fine. Photo bucket also displays the pic just fine when using Firefox. IE (latest version) is a complete failure with no pic. Tony, if you see this first disregard my PM request and thanks for the pic. It sure looks "clean" before the wheels are added! :-D
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David Woodruff brought an interesting point to my attention on how the air may effect the parachute deployment on our roadster. This is something we never thought of and was only concentrating on how the parachutes were mounted and if left unchecked could of led to some bad results. We will let the CFD tell us if we need to make changes in the back to accommodate this. Thanks Woody!!! :cheers: Tony
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These are a couple of screen shots from some of our CFD runs that were performed by David Woodruff. The first picture is of Surface Pressure Plots, PSI. The second one is of Projected Chute Paths. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/CPLocation_01.jpg)
Interesting wake behind the car.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/CHUTEPATHS_01.jpg)
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The diffusers under the car seem to be working quite well. I wonder if they are moving the CG closer to the CP? The low pressure inside the rims is interesting. Was the car modeled without Moon covers on the wheels?
Interesting comment on the pic. I always thought a rudimentary explanation of the CP was the "balance point" of the profile. IOW, if blowing on it sideways, it is the point where the object will not rotate in either direction. Is balance point something else? Do they mean CG?
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The blue, and I assume this to be low pressure, strip around the nose at the "axle" line is interesting??
Rex
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SF & Rex
If the side wind was evenly distributed on a 2D profile I would guess that the CG and CP of that section would coincide. As you can see from the top side shot the pressures (blue is low) are not even but then the airflow is not pushing on the side it is pushing on the front. In short I think there is no 2D solution for a 3D problem with interactions. 2D wing sections are considered infinite in length and all bets are off when you make a real wing, attach it to a fuselage and flap it in the breeze! But I think this tool will give us all some new insights!
Theoretically there would be a shape that this would true - maybe a 1966 SS Malibu :?
BTW: This is a first pass look at a fixed model in the digital wind tunnel! Next we get the wheels (w/Moons) spinning and the ground moving at 300 mph! :-D Stay tuned!
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Woody, are you on the salt?
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Rick, I am still at home living the LSR experience vicariously through others! (Thanks to SSS and all the others!)
Current plan is a couple of days at WoS to get my salt fix this year!
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Thanks to Woody we have been learning a lot of things from the CFD. Some things we thought were logical were completely off and something’s that we thought wouldn’t work worked. Lots of changes are ahead, some subtle and some not so subtle. But in the meantime I am working on finishing the GMC, and thanks to Doug Robinson for loaning me his pattern we will be adding the extra supports for the seven main crank and the three extra supports for the cam. Next week the pattern is off to the foundry for casting. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/GMC_Girdle_1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/GMC_Girdle_3.jpg)
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Have you found a suitable crank and cam or will you just have them built? How do you hold the girdle in and what do you use for main bearings? Looks good Tony, it will certainly be a work when it's finished.
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Armond, The crank I told you about I made snapped in three when we were flogging the mule motor on the dyno. I decided I didn’t want to go through this all over again and went with the 7 mains when Doug Robinson generously offered the use of his pattern. Arrow Precision in the UK is making the crank and I am going to ruff out the cam and send it out to my cam grinder for him to do his magic. The girdle is tied into the pan rail and cross-bolted on the block; it also uses custom 4 bolt mains cross-bolted on all 7 mains with Chrysler bearings. This has been a little slow as I have been side tracked with my Mickey Thompson Indy engine build with Pete Aardema for my street rod. Missed you at Speed Week and our deep conversations into the night with a good beer. Tony
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Tony, was your Mickey Thompson motor on the cover of Hot Rod Magazine back in the early 60's? Sounds cool, if you have the Aardema's working on it, it should be running in no time. Any pictures?
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For those unfamiliar: http://www.aardemasohc.net/index.htm (http://www.aardemasohc.net/index.htm) :cheers:
Mike
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I am lucky that Pete is helping me with the project. He is the driving force behind finishing it and without him it would just be gathering dust in the corner. We did some changes from the original version like going away from the chain drive and going to a dry belt. If everything goes well it should be done this winter. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/SBC_Hemi_30.jpg)
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While Woody does his magic on the REMR body, I am trying to get my street rod engine done. This is one of the sets of cams for the heads roughed out and ready to go to the plating shop for copper coating. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/SBC_Hemi_31.jpg)
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Thanks to Woody’s magic the roadster body is taking shape. This is the first go around of the new shape and may change a bit more when Woody is done. The old body design is on top and the new body Woody redesigned using the CFD data is on the bottom. The bottom tire shape is derived from data supplied by Good Year, Denis Manning (BUB) and Willie (thanks a bunch Willie and we are all pulling for you. Get better my friend!!!) and interpreted by Steve is more in line with what the tire will look like at speed. It will be interesting to see the final version after Woody is done blowing digital air on the body and fine tuning everything. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/REMRCFD3_28.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/REMRCFD3_33.jpg)
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Steve was able to put the finishing touches on the tub drawings this weekend and send them for comments. There are 14 sub assembly panels and 70-80 flanges and unlike a traditional racecar tub this was designed to come apart for cleaning. It also it gives us the opportunity to access engine related stuff behind the drivers seat without totally dismantling the car. The only drawback is there are a zillion 10-32 screws holding the tub together. It isn’t a feather bed, but coupled with a poured seat it should be able to absorb lots of energy and give some good protection for the driver. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/TubShowcage.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/TubCompleteAssyBttmIso.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/TubComponents.jpg)
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An awesome example of the latest technology available out there.
You guys should be plenty fast with that design, though it is hard to see the 1927 Ford in that body, guess we need to squint a lot.
Can't wait to see and hear your car thunder down the dirt and salt!
Go fast and keep it dirty!
Dreamweaver
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I was able to see a copy of proposed rule changes and one of them does concern rear engine modified roadsters and the inability to see the original body. I believe the concerns were with the rear, for head rest/parachute packs, and the tonneau area which are hard to decern what they are doing to aero. Not a player in this at all; I was against adding the class because I could see it becoming a lakester with a body. I also was not part of the voting BOD at that time so once again it was only an opinion. But like Obamacare we need to vote it in to see whats there. :cheers:............JD
Mag: once again a beautiful car.................
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Anybody from the Roadster Committee want to comment on this one?? We seem to be allowing the Roadster to ( as JD sez ) get covered in to affect the air off the "cockpit" and and place covering over the parachute packs and or exhaust exits to get rid of the turtle deck completely - yes, I am involved with a dog in this fight. Pat Kinne
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JD and Pat, those are some very good points that you guys brought up. We have known about the proposed faring rule for over two years. Last year it didn’t pass (from what I have been told) the coupe guys didn’t agree with it. But this year it looks like there is consensus and it may pass. Our coverage of the deck by the fairings is well below the proposed number and should pass without issues. The cockpit opening is designed to the rules and a driver like myself at 5’-11’ and 215 lbs can get out without moving any panels and I see no issues with any of the other guys that will be driving this car having issues either. In fact once the dust clears on the final CFD runs it may get a little bigger. I have also gotten a few PM’s on the legality of the rear fin and I can say that it’s currently modeled without the rear wing that it supports and should not be an issue. If anyone wants to see the rear wing, go back some pages on this thread and you take a look at our bat wing that Steve designed.
The only part I have concern over is the wheelbase, at 189.7” I hope the SCTA doesn’t use a French tape measure (just ask Mario and Michael Andretti what happened to them at LeMans). But just in case I will bring one made in the good old USA. :evil: Tony
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Mag......How come your giving up .2"....... I would go with 189.9..... :evil:
When W&W came out with their new roadster in the 90's they said it was 142-31/32"...I always thought it was funny as mine was stated at 142-63/64" 8-)
I like the fin and your not the first person to do that by a long shot....................JD
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JD, I stand corrected. After reading your post I went and looked at the drawings and noticed that the actual wheelbase is in fact 189.9”. 8-) Tony
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Modified Roadster People - Lets make some thing clear(er) here - We are taking about a VINTAGE CATAGORY car here - see 2010 Rule book section 5.8. This is not the SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION CATAGORY. In my opinion that means certain things - for one, for a roadster, the body is the defining factor that makes it what it is. To cover and shroud the surfaces that make it a roadster is against the "spirit" of the rule requirement for production roadster body. If you add a couple of extra inches here on the engine cover, a couple of inches there on the turtle deck shrouds you are streamlining the roadster body. More than one of these "special" modified roadsters have been referred to as lakesters - that should tell you something needs changing. One thing that makes a real roadster "fun" to drive is that turtledeck - to take that out of the equations with "chute covers and exhaust shrouds" for aero benefit sure takes the sport out of it. - Pat
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Pat, do you believe that flattening the cowl of a vintage category car, and continuing the flat area as a tonneau cover to the rear of the passenger compartment is within the "spirit" of the category? I know that it's within the rules. I, too have (had) a dog in this fight as I designed and built the former #325 D/GRMR record holder (now the #1429 and to be powered in 2011 by a ?? class engine). Neither the cowl nor the tonneau area has given up any of its original shape, ( except to cover the engine), unlike many other roadsters (front or rear-engined). The complete deck lid area is intact; it just has some evidently legal parachute fairings covering some of it. vic
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Tony - Please stop referring to your RMR as a lakester! :-o Pretty soon some other roadster toads will start formin' committees to tighten up the rules on us rear-engined guys :evil: Heard the lakester comment about ours last year, and its way taller and shorter than yours. :-D Wish I was still workin' @`Sears Point and could be in on your project - it will be the best RMR ever. Hope to see you @ Speedweek; I'll be there for sure. vic
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Tom G.
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Whoooeeee 8-) ---me thinks we have a phrophet in our midst!!!!!!!!!!! :evil:
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Pat I would have to disagree with you. These are not streamliners, laksters nor street roadsters but from the mere definition are Modified Roadsters. Our cars parachute faring covers are well below the proposed rule percentage and the car retains all the lines of the original body. Every part of this car is within the rules, and we have lots of written approvals and definition clarifications from Russ. If there are parts of this car or any other car you don’t like there is a process to have the rules changed.
But just encase as I stated earlier I am bringing my own tape measure. :evil: Oh, and I want JD to measure our car, with a car at 142 63/64 his eyesight is better than mine. 8-) Tony
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LOL :cheers:
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Tony and Krusty - Yes, there are parts and pieces on some modifieds that I don't think fit the bill for our chosen class. If your interested enough look for the rear 3/4 view of car #325. I know of two photographers that captioned their photos of this car as a Lakester. I followed SCTA protocol and was instrumental in getting the ball rolling on the proposed rules to let builders know what is acceptable in our chosen Vintage class. Pat - Thanks for asking (PS - no I don't have a problem with the flat cowl)
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Is this the car you are referring to?
Tom G.
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Mag...no more measuring for me....You can bet I stayed under the 143" limit for a Gas/Fuel Roadster and over the 530 sq" for the grille. Having a non-Ford entry in the roadster class was enough of a problem in itself. Since more have been constructed over the years and those who were in power at one time aren't players anymore I don't hear much. Now it's fun just to keep going faster and start putting my grand sons to the seat...This year I reached a goal I set for myself in 1981 when I bought the Minnal-Barrious Roadster. It took a long time and 3 car body rebuilds and meeting the yearly rule changes of that era.
I do like what the Hudson Boys (Don Wilson) did when he put a Austin American body on his lakester for his rendition of a RMR. He should be the first over 200 with a Hudson roadster..............
:evil:.....I couldn't Waters have the last word in the 90's so I came up with 63/64"
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So you're saying that photographers are the ones who decide what's a lakester and what's a rear-engined modified roadster? :evil: :-o :-D vic
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:-D
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The most obvious development in RMR's is that they take the cake for the highest percentage of truly ugly race cars.
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:-D :-D
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SB,
Around what percentage would that be??
Harv
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Beauty is only skin deep. :-P Tony
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Beauty is only skin deep. :-P Tony
LOL. How true, but it seem the problem is too much of the skin is getting covered up. LOL.
Tom G.
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Touché,Tom. LOL :-D Tony
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My next Project is a Rear Engine Modified Roadster , after Bonneville 2011, I will use my E motor for the RMR..
I can't wait to join in on this one...LOL
and I double dog dare Stan Back to call any of my builds Ugly !!! LOL :evil: :evil:
Oh yes, you all know the paint scheme !!!!
Charles
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Charles, Stan is color blind and wears coke bottle lenses and that gives him a distorted view of things, at least that's what Desoto man said.
LOL
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Charles, You have to excuse Stan as he is a street roadster guy and they tend to be a little touchy about roadsters. :-D Tony
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Tony, I understand... and Stan is OK in my book too,, I just tend to call him out to keep him in check every now and then. All in good fun... and for the record, I like street roadsters. I like any style Hi Boy racer, street, altered, modified etc...
Charles
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Charles, Stan is color blind and wears coke bottle lenses and that gives him a distorted view of things, at least that's what Desoto man said.
LOL
(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)(http://www.emoticons4u.com/happy/490.gif)
LOL.
Tom G.
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CK - I agree with Stan ... RMR are not attractive cars.
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I agree with Stan Back, almost are all ugly. Blame Ron Benham and my dad
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The rear engine roadster I drove didn't have a wing, or any aero stuff the ones have today. It even looked like all of the RMR,s in the 50s. There are several in museums that ran in that era.
:cheers:
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For the most part, the recently built RMR-s look like pregnant lakesters ...
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The rear engine roadster I drove didn't have a wing, or any aero stuff the ones have today. It even looked like all of the RMR,s in the 50s. There are several in museums that ran in that era.
:cheers:
Glen,
Is this something like you drove in the 50's?
Tom G.
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Yes Tom the Black Widow is in a private museum. Sent you a pm.
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Charles,
Why build a REMR at all. It is basically a lakester which is much easier to build and faster. You won't have to deal with body issues, trust me there will be body issues. I am willing to go out on a limb here and say your build diary will run to 100 pages with questions about the body legality.
DW
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Charles,
Why build a REMR at all. It is basically a lakester which is much easier to build and faster. You won't have to deal with body issues, trust me there will be body issues. I am willing to go out on a limb here and say your build diary will run to 100 pages with questions about the body legality.
DW
DW, thanks for your very valuable input and experiance.. After doing my own research, I have to agree with you. The best bet is for me to forget the REMR and perfect the Stude and then do a well thought out Lakester for 2012/2013..
Thanks again
Charles
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I will refrain from comment on the slow part, as I don't want to be accused of elder abuse. :-P Dan is right though, and anyone can do that. But build a REMR and run the gauntlet of pundits, experts, purist, out of work preachers and witness protection people and then you know you have done it. :mrgreen: Tony
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:evil: Tony, WHEN you are successful will you then QUALIFY to sign your name :
Tony RRT "Rear Roadster Toad" 8-)
as opposed to Tony Esq. :-D
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TeaMan, as I'm sure you already know, you need broad shoulders to play on this website.
Maybe a STAN BACK type to monitor REMRs is in order.
Stan strikes fear into the hearts of those St Rdstr racers.
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It has been overlooked...... butt Stan Back ran plastic valve stem caps on his record return pass..
I seen 'em!
Note: interested bystander tole him it would be an aero advantage.
Hard to dispute that. He did get the record.
FREUD
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TeaMan, as I'm sure you already know, you need broad shoulders to play on this website.
Maybe a STAN BACK type to monitor REMRs is in order.
Stan strikes fear into the hearts of those St Rdstr racers.
IB, If you don’t have broad shoulders then you shouldn’t be in racing especially LSR.
We were originally going to build a street roadster when someone mentioned Stan’s name. A hush came over the room and you could cut the air in there with a knife. A chill went up my spine and we all collectively turned to the dark side and decided to build a REMR. I have heard in some circles the mere mention of Stan’s name can make women faint and men insane. I only dare whisper his name. :-o Tony
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When Stan is mentioned don't forget to cover your childern's ears.
DW
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Stan Back drinks boxed wine.
'nuff said.
FREUD
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Stan Back drinks boxed wine.
'nuff said.
FREUD
Don`t sugar coat it Freud, Tell us what you really think :evil:
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He also uses a straw.
FREUD
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Over Ice? :-o
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Over Ice? :-o
Stan, Please say it isn't so. :-o Tony
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The UPS guy says it looks like Stan may be converting his C/STR to a rear engine car.
Would that put it in REMR class?
I think he gave up his fight in Street Roaster class and will get revenge in a new class.
FREUD
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Ouch..... :wink:
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Re Stan's future:
With all due respect Dr F , not quite right.
We're hiding a Hayubusa motor under the rear deck chain driven down to the 3rd member.
Only way to keep up with those surplus NASCAR motors in C class!
Watch for a press release re: the Franzia sponsorship.
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WOW ! ! !
Drunks know no limits.
Has he contacted Noonan for a 'busa?
Don't let him overstress his member.
FerDDDD
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Finally the girdle casting for the GMC is done. The foundry sent these pictures of the casting after the heat treatment process. Now the hard work of fitting the girdle to the block and designing the crank begins. This should really help the bottom stay together and keep the cam from wobbling around. I want to thank Doug Robinson again for loaning me his pattern, without it this would not have been possible. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/photo-1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/photo.jpg)
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Tony, what foundry did you use?
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Tony, what foundry did you use?
I used Betra Manufacturing in Carson City NV. Denis Manning referred them to me as they did all his castings on the BUB motor. Larry one of the owners is car aficionado and a pleasure to work with and when he gave me the ten-cent tour of the shop he pointed out all the Bonneville projects they were working on. The other big plus is they can keep very tight tolerances and is MIL certified. Tony
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Thanks for the reference, Tony. I have been happy with General Foundry in San leandro but it is always good to have an additional source. Betra sounds interesting and I'll check them out in the future.
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Finally finished the intermediate lifters for the GMC. Machining this was a fun process, as I had to go through some parts till I got it to the point I was satisfied. The lifter will fit in the head and enable us to use a short push rod from the lifter to the rocker. In the picture the small lifter is next to the roller lifter from the engine with a quarter placed to show the scale of it all. I also want to thank Mike Kirby for doing the drawing and Terry Manton who prodded me to push forward and consulted on the project. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/lifter.jpg)
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Tony, what an intresting piece---I assume it is solid and it was mostly to address pushrod harmonics
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Sparky, They have hole down the middle for oiling and yes, it’s for the harmonics of the pushrod. I have a mule motor that we run on the spintron, and you wouldn’t believe what goes on there. With the spring pressures, lift and RPM we plan on running this is one of the parts of our strategy to help keep valvetrain stability. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/lifter_1.jpg)
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Spintron? Tony, if not homemeade, what city and company is one located?
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Lookin' good Tony, out of curiosity, where are you picking up pressurized oil? I take it you've added some sort of extra drainage ports to the head in between the pushrod holes (now that they're blocked).
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Saltfever, One of my friends bought the spintron that Comptech had when they were doing the IRL motors at their auction a while back. He has it up at Sears Point, but is thinking of moving up to Lake Tahoe after the first of the year. He does consulting for some of the race teams and we squeezed the GMC mule motor in between projects. It sure is an eye opener.
Armond, Its not for pressurized oil, I have a spray bar on top and its to drain some of the oil that will eventually find its way there. It will drain through the push rods and lube the roller on the bottom lifter, and eventually end up draining to the pan off the drain down tubes on the cam shield. On the head I moved all the oil drain backs and shouldn’t have an issue with oil drain back. Trying to figure out the oil control on the engine and optimizing it has been a mind twister. But it’s been a lot of fun. Tony
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It’s alive!!! It doesn’t look like much, but this is a milestone on the car as this is the first piece machined for the car (engine parts don’t count). This is the sump for the fuel tank with two –12 openings. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/gas_tank_sump.jpg)
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Big is good :-D
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It’s a little late as I was out of the country for the last month, but I want to congratulate Steve for engineering the new DP Flying Lizard car and helping it to put it on the pole for the 24hrs with a new track record. Tony
Picture is from the net.
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With the help of Woody we are getting closer on the final aero package. But still we have just as much to do on the aero as what has been done, and to quote Woody “The laws of diminishing returns are out to get us! But then laws were made to be broken!” This is a screen shot from one of the many CFD runs that Woody has done. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/Default7_SP_12.jpg)
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Tony,
Thanks for the update.
Tom G.
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After a long wait we started working on the front sway bar and the rear uprights today. The wait was due to the steel for the uprights showing up without the proper certificates for the specs that Steve had called for. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/P1250177.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/P1250178.jpg)
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I had a pleasant surprise in the mail yesterday; one of my friends on the Renault F1 team sent me their last year’s style of pitot tube that was used on the cars. I have been contemplating on running a pitot tube to validate some of our aero work, and now thanks to him I can. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tube.jpg)
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Tony, You might want to do some reading research on a NICKS tube to use with your AERO projects. Very simple to make might help
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My friend Larry finished up the mid plate for the GMC 302 / Aurora IRL motor today (the backside is a mirror image of the front). Slowly but surely the parts are starting to come in. The next parts to be finished will be the fuel tank / roll oevr valve and the rest of the bell housing supports. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/motorplate.jpg)
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Tony,,, wow that mid plate is art work !!!
Charles
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Looks to me like the whole car is going to have a rather large WOW factor! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Charles and Pete, thanks for the compliments!!! :cheers: Its off to the plating shop later in the week for a clear anodize. Tony
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Looks to me like the whole car is going to have a rather large WOW factor! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
Yes, I would agree. Your collection of avatars are work of art as well! Happy Saint Patricks day to you too! :-o
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Charles and Pete, thanks for the compliments!!! :cheers: Its off to the plating shop later in the week for a clear anodize. Tony
You answered my question before I asked it, nice work guys!
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Yesterday Kevin sent over some pictures of the rear uprights in progress. If they turnout half as nice as his Cadillac heads I know these will be perfect. I cant believe all the lines of code for these. :-o Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rear_upright_1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rear_upright_2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/rear_upright_3.jpg)
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These are some more shots of the reverse side of the uprights being machined. Hopefully they should be done by the end of the week. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/hub_4.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/hub_6.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/hub_5.jpg)
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Finally the rear uprights are done, they will mate to modified Chevy Malibu hubs. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/last_hub.jpg)
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The number of lines of code always amazes me! I always think that because the part is small, the code should be simple.
That's looking real good, Tony!
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The number of lines of code always amazes me! I always think that because the part is small, the code should be simple.
That's looking real good, Tony!
Thanks Buddy! The upright has a little over a 1000 lines of code and the other side is exactly opposite with another 1000 lines of code. Tony
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Now I get to enjoy another build diary.
THANX
FREUD
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I talked with Sparky today, about a Jimmy 302 for my coupe. This thread was brought up, so I decided to read the whole thing again.
Now my head hurts! Lol! :-D
There is sooo much good info here, and an amazing build. :cheers:
Can I ask you a couple of questions? Why the cast girdle, instead of a machined one?
Can you expand on the lifter setup, or is that "IP"?
Can you give any details of the head? I just made a deal on a Skinner head.
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Buddy, The reason I went with the cast aluminum girdle was that the pattern already existed (Doug Robinson was kind to loan it to me) and the sheer size of the part to machine from a billet was too much. The girdle has three extra mains and three extra cam supports to help with stability (because of our bigger base circle we are using 460 Ford cam bearings). We also went with Dodge 318 main bearings to uniform everything and moved the thrust bearing to the back. The big draw back I see is that the two metals will expand at different temperatures throwing the bearing tolerances off. For this we came up with a starting procedure to get the tolerances we built to.
There’s no IP involved with the lifter. Its an idea that and Kay Sissell and Mike Kirby came up with a long time ago and something I expanded on with the help of Terry Manton to help valve train stability. Due to the long push rods on the GMC, if your going to run any sort of serious lift the push rods will have odd angles and will be reflected in performance. The small lifter in the head fixes this problem and in our case we are running almost a 1” of lift and needed this to take the angle from the head to the rocker arm (I think I have about three sets left).
The other area you want to look at is the rocker arm attachment. In our spintron runs at high RPM the rocker arms tended to wobble around a bit. To fix the problem we came with a girdle for the rocker arm, which also acts as the bottom of the valve cover. It attaches each rocker with two bolts.
The head you have is very nice head and would be a great XXO motor. In our case we are going with a stock head for both XO and XXO, with the XXO running more CI than the 325 allowed for a 12 port. I don’t want to get into specific valve sizes and flow numbers, but I say it can run with the best of the 12 port heads.
The one thing we did from the start of the build was to see how we could optimize everything. I was very fortunate from the start that a lot of good people was open with help on the GMC, the Ferguson’s, Doug Robinson, Armond and Mike Kirby just to name a few.
Now that you are thinking of turning to the dark side, have fun with it and ask away with any questions you have. There is a lot of GMC knowledge on the boards. Tony
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Thanks Tony!
The big draw back I see is that the two metals will expand at different temperatures throwing the bearing tolerances off
That's why I was asking. I thought a milled steel girdel might be a more 'natural' fit. Sounds like you have it handled though. :cheers:
So I assume that there is a short pushrod to the lifter in the head, then another from the lifter to the rocker, or does the head' lifter contact the rocker ? What holds the lifter in the head-a milled pocket?
Hmmm, if I had known a stock head could be made to flow as well as a Skinner, I probably would have kept my money in my pocket! :-D
Joe Fontana thinks 1000-1100HP on fuel is realistic. We're gonna see!
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Did some work on the parts today and also decided that we will use my my blown GMC 6 first. It has a F2 reverse rotation Procharger that was taken apart today and sent out to get extrude honed. The drawing is to scale with the aftercooler and the air box. However I still have to do some CFD work on the air box to see how it will flow. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/gmc_6_assy_21.jpg) (http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/gmc_6_assy_11.jpg)
Oh yea, I forgot to ask if you could provide any details on your air box?
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There are two push rods, one long and one small one about 3” long from the lifter to the rocker. The lifter fits into a guide (diesel valve guide) pressed into the head.
The head is another story. We have over two years on the flow bench and I can’t even count how many heads we cut up to get to this stage.
Joe Fontana is absolutely correct on the HP number. He has seen the same engine I saw that is going into a lakester trying for a 300 mph run :-o. If it does what it did on the dyno it will be a beast.
The air box is built around the style of the Audi LMP engine (I think theirs worked somewhat :-D). We are trying to blow the air from the top down evenly across the box and build some pressure. The throttle bodies are (height adjustable for tuning) duel barrel valve types that have no obstructions. Tony
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Good stuff Tony, Thanks!
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Buddy, The reason I went with the cast aluminum girdle was that the pattern already existed (Doug Robinson was kind to loan it to me)
Girdles have been successful in both steel, and aluminum. The Roush engines of the GTO cars in the 80's were 2.3L Pinto based and used billet aluminum girdles. I do not know the alloy. The 2.5L displacement engines were extremely successful and NEVER had a structure failure that I know of. Reportedly with unrestricted turbochargers could make in the vicinity of 1000 HP.
They won a lot.
Bi-metal joints down low should be around oil temperatures and shouldn't have too much movement in shear which is where the weakness would be.
OH, Tony, where DO you get those avitar photos. Man they just keep on getting better.
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I did forget to add that when I told the foundry what I was doing with it, the metallurgist did change the cocktail a bit to make it more durable. In my opinion the cylinder flex is a bigger problem which we are dealing with now with an old school fix. Boy, working with the old iron keeps the brain cells working.
Rick, All the pictures are from various racetracks, not all mine though. Tony
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Yeah, I had to zoom my browser to 400% just to see the name of her designer. :wink:
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Bi-metal joints down low should be around oil temperatures and shouldn't have too much movement in shear which is where the weakness would be.
Very good point, and I didn't take that into consideration.
Tony, I thought we had done some design work, but we are ages behind you guys! Kudos! :cheers:
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Yeah, I had to zoom my browser to 400% just to see the name of her designer. :wink:
I looked at 800% and still could not see her cast aluminum girdle! :-(
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Tony, maybe I missed it, but I don't see what you are running for ignition?
Is Doug the only one with the 7 main bearing pattern, or are there other 7 main girdles out there?
Enquiring minds want to know! Lol!
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Buddy, We have not settled on an ignition system yet, but since we will be running fuel we are leaning towards a MSD Pro Mag 44. Need the arc welder for the fuel. :-o
Years ago Don Ferguson showed me the girdle he was building. Other than his, Doug’s and mine are the only ones I know of. But that does not mean there aren’t any others out there. Just look at all the 5 main Model A engines running. There is more than one way to skin this cat. At Armond’s (rebelce on the boards) suggestion we looked at modifying a Ford 300 7 main crank. With some modifying of the block and crank (not for the weak heart) it will work. I was told the Ford 300 steel cranks came in heavy-duty trucks and wood chippers. After an exhaustive search I gave up because I couldn’t find one of those cranks out here at a reasonable price. Tony
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Good stuff! :cheers:
Is Don Ferguson's bottem end based of the same pattern, or a different one?
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I don't really like talking about bottom ends, its just too personal. :-o
Though, Don did machine the one he showed me from billet. The best thing to do is call him, he is one class act and will help you if he can. Tony
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Well, you may not like talking about them, bit you sure have a nice photo collection of them! I think that avatar is the best yet! :cheers:
I'll call Don. I talked to him about a cam blank yesterday, but didn't realize he had the 7 main set up.
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Buddy, We have not settled on an ignition system yet, but since we will be running fuel we are leaning towards a MSD Pro Mag 44. Need the arc welder for the fuel. :-o
Years ago Don Ferguson showed me the girdle he was building. Other than his, Doug’s and mine are the only ones I know of. But that does not mean there aren’t any others out there. Just look at all the 5 main Model A engines running. There is more than one way to skin this cat. At Armond’s (rebelce on the boards) suggestion we looked at modifying a Ford 300 7 main crank. With some modifying of the block and crank (not for the weak heart) it will work. I was told the Ford 300 steel cranks came in heavy-duty trucks and wood chippers. After an exhaustive search I gave up because I couldn’t find one of those cranks out here at a reasonable price. Tony
Tony, those 300s are used in LOTS of industrial engines. We have several at the shop. Here is a resource if you need it. http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/index.php
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Tman, Thanks for the link. :cheers: But now we are married to the girdle. Tony
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Tman, Thanks for the link. :cheers: But now we are married to the girdle. Tony
Extra unessesary knowlege is always a good thing!
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I have had several pm's on wanting to see the two finished uprights and to know why we didn't go with a off the shelf upright like one off a corvette. The simple answer is that when we design and build a component, we take into account all of the possible scenarios that the part may go through and what is the expected life of the part. We felt the corvette parts while fine for road use and some sorts of racing, that they would not stand up to what we have in mind long term with the bigger engines. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/upright_10.jpg)
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On Friday I was at the track and manage to get some work done. Using an old Stewart Warner (they are very sensitive) balancing machine we set out to balance the rotors. Once we had them chucked up and spinning we were in for a surprise. One rotor was 3 grams off and the other was 2.7 grams off. :-o Good thing the Brembo rep wasn’t there, as I would have thrown the rotors at him. :x After some work we were able to get them to an balance we liked. Tony
One of the suspects, Dodge (yes that’s his name) balancing the rotors.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/shop001.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/shop002.jpg)
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Tony, the craftsmanship is first class, and I'm sure your attention to details will pay of on the salt!
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Just a comment on the pic of the rear up rights. Note the Collins granite inspection table, and the boxes of Jo blocks and inspection blocks behind them. These are pretty serious parts made for people that make very accurate parts. Not just your average "garage guy" (like me and many others) that are turning the cranks on Bridgeports trying to widdle out some parts for our car and checking the dimensions with our Harbor Freight calipers.
This is going to be a very "first class" effort from some guys with lots of racing experience. Going to be fun watching it.
Rex
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Rex,
I'm enjoying it immensely.
The car is being done by some real professionals, and it shows.
It will be a work of art and I look forward to seeing it in person.
I have some of those same inspection tools, but can't do nearly the
same kind of work.
Reminds me of another wonderful build.
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Thanks for the nice comments guys. It means a lot when it comes from your peers!
Buddy, the rotors were a pain to balance as we are using Brembo speedway rotors that are only 3/8” thick. We didn’t have the luxury of grinding the center veins like you would on a vented rotor to balance them; instead we had to drill them. This is a chart for weights of material from drilled holes published by Stewart Warner. If anyone wants a better copy PM your email address. Tony
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Tony, the level of detail that you guys are addressing clearly shows a very knowledgeable, and dedicated team.
I have no doubt that you guys will be successful in your endeavors! :cheers:
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I want wish some of the suspects helping on the roadster, Steve and the guys for a successful 24 hrs of LeMans this weekend. They are debuting a new paint scheme for the race and are qualified 3rd and 8th in class. :cheers: Tony
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Its been a while since I had a chance to update the build. But this weekend we started fitting the girdle to the GMC block and started to make the cuts to square it up. Still need to work out the new oiling for the crank and cam. The caps will also be cross bolted for added strength. Tony
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That 7 main girdle is wicked!
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Thanks Buddy. But if it weren't for Doug Robinson loaning us his pattern and advising us, the 7 mains wouldn't be possible. Doug along with Don Ferguson, Mike Kirby and Armond has helped our vintage engine program tremendously! The GMC is more of a compilation of all their ideas than mine. Tony
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Having seen all those pretty pictures of parts, I was kind of expecting something more digital looking, making the chips. The avatar's are still #1.
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Rich, This thing is big and needs to be fitted (it also has extra supports for the cam). It would have been a pain to write the program for the CNC and would have taken twice as long. Buy the way did my friend Larry call you about the Dodge? Tony
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Yes. We had a nice talk.
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This is just a pisser, I tore my ACL today while surfing. Looks like I will be immobile a bit and will be able to catch up on some drawings and damage some more of my brain cells. Tony
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Sorry to hear that Tony. I hope the recovery goes quickly.
Those of us who have a few more years on our bodies have already discovered that all those athletic activities we thought were supposed to help us maintain a higher quality later in life in actual fact just contribute to the degradation instead. :roll: :roll: :evil:
Pete
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Pete
say it ain't so man, Between BBC heads and Nattie Ls my upper body conditioning alternates between being stressed and being soothed which I heard was good for one :cheers:
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Sparky, I think the smooth, simple workouts really do help. It's all those foolish world saving dives to make catches or saves, those long throws that score touchdowns or put runners out and the general collisions of bodies with other bodies and foreign objects that collect their toll in the future. :cry: :cry: :cry:
Okay, back to the real subject. Maybe Tony can now find the time to show all the larger source pictures for his avatars and give us a few sketches of where his overall project is headed. This is one of the more interesting builds using lots of ideas from other forms of racing. The other night I had supper with my friend who owns the Indy cars I last worked on (2003 ex Menard Dallaras). He's selling one of the cars but we were trying to decide what spares we should keep to maybe build a Bonneville project down the line.
Pete
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ummmm... or you just have bad knees or instability for other reasons. I tore my ACL while playing laser tag with my boys. Nothing extraordinary, just a pivot and whamo... a crumpled pile of pain. Oh yeah, I was shot repeatedly while down. At least it was not my sons.
Long recovery, but you do not need your ACL. I decided I liked to be active and run so I had mine replaced.
Good Luck,
Jim
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Oh that aint nuthin'. blew out the disc at L4 in my back getting out of bed -rough night. :-D
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That's why I ride mountain bike and climb frozen waterfalls...............much safer :roll:
Hope you heal well Tony!
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Oh that aint nuthin'. blew out the disc at L4 in my back getting out of bed -rough night. :-D
Yikes, you do have it worse off! :-o :-o :-o
Pete and everyone ells thanks for the words of encouragements, PM's and the phone calls. Ia m just upset with myself for doing a bone head move. I have been surfing for over 30 years and I should have known better.
Trent, I love mountain biking and just came back from a trip to Taho a few weeks ago. I ride a Santa Cruz downhill bike and its a blast to come down the mountain on. Tony
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Oh that aint nuthin'. blew out the disc at L4 in my back getting out of bed -rough night. :-D
Yikes, you do have it worse off! :-o :-o :-o
Pete and everyone ells thanks for the words of encouragements, PM's and the phone calls. Ia m just upset with myself for doing a bone head move. I have been surfing for over 30 years and I should have known better.
Trent, I love mountain biking and just came back from a trip to Taho a few weeks ago. I ride a Santa Cruz downhill bike and its a blast to come down the mountain on. Tony
Then you need to come to the Black Hills some time to ride!
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Its not a great picture as it was taken from a cell phone. But we were able to get the girdle fitted and now we can start on tying everything together and machining the main caps and working out the oiling for the crank. Tony
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Bummer about that ACl! Hope you heal well, and fast!
That 7 main looks the part- all business.
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After looking at the aero and a consensus with everyone on the project we have decided to remove the brakes from the airstream and go with inboard brakes like we had originally drawn. The only major drawback is that the rotor hat on the right side will be a little deeper than we would like to clear gear cartridges. Also the simulations showed some flexing of the axle bearing, so to fix that we will go with duel calipers on each side. Tony
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Thanks Tony, I went and reread some of the things we discussed. Lots of good ideas in your camp. Looking into honeycomb right now.
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Trent, Your seat insert part went out today. Let me know when you get it? Tony
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Trent, Your seat insert part went out today. Let me know when you get it? Tony
Yes, will do. Thanks! I have more questions and will be in touch.
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These are some front and side views of the diffuser and tunnel flow trajectories. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/REMR_ANOVA_2_RUN_1_FT_55.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/REMR_ANOVA_2_RUN_1_FT_57.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/REMR_ANOVA_2_RUN_1_FT_58.jpg)
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Tony, would that be high pressure or velocity under the section in front of the cockpit. I have a '27 roadster hot rod project that never got past the roller stage and I have been contemplating a RMR build for the OHIO Mile, After I get the wife LSR Camaro done of course. So I follow folks build closely.
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The plots are relative pressure on the flow trajectories.
Red is above atmospheric and blue is below.
Try that with your wind tunnel smoke! :-o
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Don't remember the '27s looking so v-shaped from the front?
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That's a '27?? :-o
:cheers:
Mike
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Tony, Those are not the same pictures you sent to me! WTH?
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Tony, Those are not the same pictures you sent to me! WTH?
Sh, Sh, Sh Tony
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That computer modeling is cool. Wish I knew enough to do it for our lakester AND know what the heck I am looking at!
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Maybe it's a Pierce-Arrow with both the pierce and the aero.
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That computer modeling is cool.
Copy that Tman. I recently scored a copy of solidworks, and man, just getting through the tutorials has me scratching my head!
Looks sweet Tony! :mrgreen:
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Tony, On your pictures in front of the nose is shows an increase in pressure then reduces as it moves further away from the car, I guess that is because of the pressure build up off the nose?
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That's a '27?? :-o
:cheers:
Mike
At speed the air makes it look like a '27. :-D :-D :-D Tony
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Guys, I cant take credit for this. All of it is Woody's hard work, and without him none of this would be possible. Tony
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Tony or Woody:
Would there be an advantage to widening the front axle so that the front and rear wheels were lined up? I realize that it would present more frontal area or at least different frontal area from the wider front end components but would aligning the tires with the backs directly behind the fronts be an advantage?
Tony, you need to use a different avatar for the posts where we're supposed to concentrate on the subject contained in the post. :evil: :evil:
Pete
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Tony or Woody:
Would there be an advantage to widening the front axle so that the front and rear wheels were lined up? I realize that it would present more frontal area or at least different frontal area from the wider front end components but would aligning the tires with the backs directly behind the fronts be an advantage?
Tony, you need to use a different avatar for the posts where we're supposed to concentrate on the subject contained in the post. :evil: :evil:
Pete
Pete, we did an ANOVA study on the wheel tracks narrow and/or wide. ANOVA is short for Analysis of Variation.
Turns out they are pretty happy where they're at! But this will always be case-specific based on the neighboring geometry!
F1 & Indy car body shapes are roughly based on the flow around the 4 open wheels or in their case "spinning round bricks"!
Tony, I think these guys are starting to get wise to us! :cheers:
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Tony - wow! Make sure I know when you take that thing thru tech so I can listen to the whining and watch the headscratching. Sorry I missed you @ Speedweek.
@Tman - "AND know what the heck I am looking at!" You and me both! It also applies to data acquisition analysis.
vic
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Tony - wow! Make sure I know when you take that thing thru tech so I can listen to the whining and watch the headscratching. Sorry I missed you @ Speedweek.
@Tman - "AND know what the heck I am looking at!" You and me both! It also applies to data acquisition analysis.
vic
Like I said in the aero thread. In caveman voice "Me make pointy car, go fast." :-D :wink:
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I had Kevin send some better shots of the work being done on the girdle. This week he will start working on the cross bolted mains and the oil pan rails. Once all this is done we can start the design work on the crank and dry sump pan. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/girdle8.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/girdel7.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/girdle6.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/girdle5.jpg)
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Wow!
1st class, as usual! That bottom end should be super solid- I think I have '7 main envy'! :cheers:
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That is one marvelous post. It's a joy to see machine work like that.
FREUD
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Freud and Buddy, Thanks for the compliments, its been fun figuring out how to rework everything, though sometimes it almost feels like reinventing the wheel. I cant wait to start on the belt drive for this, nothing is off the shelf. Its a labor of LOVE! Tony
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Its a labor of LOVE! Tony
It shows! :cheers:
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Finished up the scatter shield adapter to the trans axle.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/trans_adapter.jpg)
Finally got around to clear hard anodizing the rear motor mount. I am pretty happy with the way it turned out considering it had to be hand sanded to remove some of the machining marks. I wish I had a tumbler big enough to put this in. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/plated.jpg)
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Tony when you going to build the car? start on the chassis yet? :evil: bitchen parts man
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I once had an employer who used to complain that every time he'd come by my bench there wasn't very much happening, then one day he'd be going past and see the project at or nearing completion without warning. I always built what I felt were the main components first and then assembled them all to complete the project. Not all people work that way.
Nice work Tony! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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just giving Tony a hard time clam down A
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Finished up the scatter shield adapter to the trans axle.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/trans_adapter.jpg)
Finally got around to clear hard anodizing the rear motor mount. I am pretty happy with the way it turned out considering it had to be hand sanded to remove some of the machining marks. I wish I had a tumbler big enough to put this in. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/plated.jpg)
Tony, I hope that's just the hardwood floors in your "shop" and not the dining room table like we've seen! :cheers:
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That wasn't a rant Mkilger. I understood where you were coming from. I probably should have used a smiley or two.
The floors are almost nicer than the pieces. Hope your wife doesn't see the posts Tony. :-o :-D :-D
Pete
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I love hard ano, who is doing those pieces?
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Mike, To answer your question, hopefully soon. :cheers:
Woody has been working on the aero package and we have been seeing what works and what doesn't. Then we did and overlay of the current frame and ran into a few issues as shown in the picture. Now we are redrawing the frame to fit the aero. Our criteria for the roadster has always been 1.safety 2.aero and in that order. I have distorted the back of the car as not to show too much. All you inquiring minds will have to wait and see it on the salt. :evil: :evil: :evil: Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/F1Compare_09TT.jpg)
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I have distorted the back of the car as not to show too much. All you inquiring minds will have to wait and see it on the salt. :evil: :evil: :evil: Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/F1Compare_09TT.jpg)
I can post those pictures if you like Tony............. :evil:
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Tony I know a good chassis guy :wink:
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Mike, I still need to bring all the stuff for the '32 roadster down to you to get started. Its just been a slow project and its been on the back burner, and besides I still need to figure out the suspension for it. I talked to Foose and he is pushing me towards something Miller inspired like his P-32. The engine is getting very close and only need the fuel injection (still looking at how to hide the electronics) and oil pan fabricated. Maybe early part of next year we can start on it. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/SBC-Hemi_39.jpg)
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That is wicked!
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Tony that sounds good, my wife works with Chip, we are good friends and have worked with him on many projects.
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Just a plain ol' Chevy I see! :roll: :roll: :-D
Looks like fun.
Pete
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For those of you that didn't get to go to the IMIS show in Indy last week, Woody sent these pictures of the 3D Vision Technologies booth with a model of the first iteration of the roadster. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/IMIS_1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/IMIS_2.jpg)
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Tony, Woody- That's pretty cool! :cheers:
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Kingler, Re: Chassis guy ; were you talkin about Ex-Boyd employee Al who built your rdstr?
Heard he's pretty buryied rite now.
But maybe you outta research the credentials that Tony has and the motorsports connections he's mentioned to me over the phone.
Methinks he's well set in the chassis dept!
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Thats some cool stuff Tony! Woody does good work.
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Intersted bystander Al built and set up my frame rails for me and made me a roller, he didnt build my roadster! but ya Al's a good chassis guy too.
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Thats some cool stuff Tony! Woody does good work.
Woody doses GREAT WORK!!!!! We are going to try and get him a hat, and if I read all the tea leaves correctly we just might (that's if the salt gods let us).
IB, I just don't have the time to do my street roadster and all my friends that are local are committed to teams (for all of us to finish the REMR is a task). Might as well let a friend do it and besides I really like Mike's work. Tony
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Tony, hats are only SLIGHTLY cooler than your roving avatars :-o
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tea leaves :roll: classic thats funny Tony
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I've always been intrigued by the 'theoretical' meets the 'real world'
So much of what Woody does is theoretical, and proved only in computer simulations. With the vast amount of Woody's work going into the build, along with all the real world experience involved, it will be very interesting to see these computer simulations proved on the track.
Old world meets new world, with exciting results to come! :cheers:
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We are very lucky to have both Woody and Steve on the team. Steve literally has hundreds of hours in the wind tunnel while with TWR, Lola and Reynard and Woody has brought a dimension to the team that would have taken us hundreds of hours in the wind tunnel to get to. Between both of them we are able to quickly test ideas to see if they will work or not. Recently Woody did some wheel spacing tests on the car to see how they interacted with the body. This is something that would have been next to impossible to do without the CFD because the costs would have been prohibitive to build 5 sets of suspension parts and spend days in the wind tunnel to get the results we wanted. The other great thing about CFD we are able to visualize how the air is moving. If I didn’t see it I would have said it’s impossible for the air to move like that on a '27 roadster. This is a group project and with the input of all we have been able to optimize every inch of the car and not leave anything on the table.
Buddy I agree with you, it should be interesting to see “old world meets new world”. :cheers: Tony
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It’s been a while since I last updated the build. The build is still moving along, though not at a fast speed. It seems that all of our day jobs get in the way.
I received the oil cooler for the dry sump system on the trans axle last week, and WOW what a piece of artwork it is. Hamilton – Sundstrand in UK http://www.hsmarston.co.uk/products-3.html built it to our specs. It will be mounted behind the trans axle for ease of maintenance and easy access to the gear cartridges for the gear changes. This will also be coupled with our proprietary valve that will keep the oil at the optimal temperature for the bearing clearances we specked. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/transcooler.jpg)
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Tony, like everything elase on your build, that's real nice!
What micron filter are you planning on using?
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Buddy, It will be a 10 micron filter. :cheers: Tony
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My friend Larry Finished up the fuel cell top plate today, and now we can start to fab up the fuel cell. This is a critical part on the car as the steering shaft comes through the tank so it needs to be very precise. Next part for the tank is our custom roll valve. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tanktop.jpg)
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What? You're going to use something that is that pretty? Nice - - :-)
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What? You're going to use something that is that pretty? Nice - - :-)
Whats worse is we will be welding on it. Tony
From one of my previous posts.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/023-040afueltankassy.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/fueltankinchassis2.jpg)
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Are you going to be required to have a sealed firewall between the driver and the oil tank? I would think and hope so.
This build is awesome and starting to rival the Target 550 build in its own way.
Pete
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Are you going to be required to have a sealed firewall between the driver and the oil tank? I would think and hope so.
This build is awesome and starting to rival the Target 550 build in its own way.
Pete
There is no such requirment at this time although many people do build some type of sheilding.
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Tony, every part of this build is fantastic! You and the guys are doing an amazing job!
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Pete, There will be two bulkheads, one behind the fuel tank and one after the water tank. Then there is the driver pod which is also isolated from everything ells.
Buddy, Thanks for the compliments. Even though it seems slow, we make progress on it every week, some it big and some of it small.
I have had a few PM's asking what the small hole on the fuel cell top plate is for? Unlike on most fuel cells where they use the big oval plate for filling and the fuel lines, we will use a dry break on the small hole for filling and the on the big plate will be our return lines and our custom roll over valve. Tony
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Tony, when you run gas, is there a way for tech to easily check your tank, even with the dry break?
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Tony, when you run gas, is there a way for tech to easily check your tank, even with the dry break?
We will use a fuel sample valve closer to the engine, similar to the one below. Tony
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One of the neat things about this build is that most (all?) of the guys working on it are old road race and Indy guys so they know where to get trick things like the sampling valve and probably at prices that would amaze you. Tony has gotten many things that are "race proven" CART, IRL and IMSA parts that they are incorporating into the roadster at almost give away prices. Great to see this kind of technology utilized in land speed racing. They also happen to do work that is at the professional level as is shown by the cooler and the fuel cell. I am sure other parts are coming that will be equally impressive.
Rex
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Rex, Your giving all the secrets away. :cheers: Tony
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I don't care where they are getting the parts from, this beauty is never going to have to worry about being called "roadkill" or the builders called DDs (dumpster divers). Entered in the AMBR competition or best engineered maybe!! :cheers:
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Maggie......it's marvelous.
Keep posting.
FREUD
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Maggie- :lol:--I love it :lol:
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Thanks guys. :cheers: As fast as I want the parts to come, it seems that everyone's day jobs gets in the way and we only get to wok on it when time permits. Tony
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I don't care where they are getting the parts from, this beauty is never going to have to worry about being called "roadkill" or the builders called DDs (dumpster divers). Entered in the AMBR competition or best engineered maybe!! :cheers:
1st class engineering and build, for sure! :cheers:
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Thanks guys. :cheers: As fast as I want the parts to come, it seems that everyone's day jobs gets in the way and we only get to wok on it when time permits. Tony
Tony, we have all been down that road. Some times long hours after hours and a lot of coffee to get through the night knowing the next day at work will be tough. You really grab my heart with the rear engine roadster as it was my 1st ride over 200 mph in 1957.
:cheers:
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Better pour tea for Tony or he might have more time on his hands than now.
DW
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Tony, I just reread this for about the 10th time, trying to glean all the info I could about the engine and intercooler. Every time I read it, I find something I missed. This is a really great thread! :cheers:
I'm getting ready to start on the intercooler, and will soon start on the engine.
They say "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"- If that's true, I must be your biggest fan, because I plan on 'copying' a lot of what you are doingon the engine setup.! Thanks for all the detail.
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Finally got the hubs fitted to the uprights this evening. Its a fairly quick job, but I had to wait for the hubs to come back after they were modified, and now it seems they can spin forever. I still have to press the new studs in and scallop the area of the old studs. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/hub1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/hub2.jpg)
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Tony;
Maybe you covered this way back in this thread, if so I apologize for asking but what bolt pattern did you go to and from what?
Regards, Neil
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Tony;
Maybe you covered this way back in this thread, if so I apologize for asking but what bolt pattern did you go to and from what?
Regards, Neil
Neil, The hubs we are using are Timken units made for GM front wheel drive cars and came with 5 x 115mm bolt pattern. Our brake system is designed around the NASCAR super speedway brakes and take a 5 x 5 rotor hat and thats why we switched to the 5x5 studs. However its now a moot point as we have decided to move the brakes inboard for aero gains and will have a custom rotor hat mounted to the trans-axle. The hubs were done long before we decided to move the brakes.
Funny thing is when we were working with the Timken engineer he was shocked at whet were going to do with the hub, and given the bearing speed he reluctantly gave the OK but wouldn't commit on paper or email. Tony
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I have been to that movie with Goodyear on tires and, American Axle and Dana about posi units
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This evening I made the return tubes for the the dry deck system on the GMC. When I started it it looked simple but, but I kept boogering up the flare on the first few parts. I still have to make the fittings from the block that these will fit on to. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/GMCTubes.jpg)
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For some strange reason I have been unsubscribed from this thread. Don't know exactly when that happened and I was slow to realize it. I re-subscribed just now, hoping that will "reset" the problem. Has this happened to anyone else before?
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It wasn't me! I didn't see anything going past my screen that would have made me think something goofy was going on. Get back to me if you need help.
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:evil: Sr. moment :-D :cheers:
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How can you be "un-subscribed" from a single thread? Once you are on the site I thought you had access to all threads in the forum.
DW
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Well, it shows you've made 123 replies since you've resubscribed.
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Unfortunately, Sparky is probably right "on point". :wink: However, thanks for being proactive Jon, and keeping a watchful eye out for everyone. Tony, my apologies for the mini thread drift. Please continue with the fine avatar's, oh and BTW . . . the fine engineering/fabrication reports. :-D
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Stan and Dan I meant that I seemed to be unsubscribed from this specific thread. Any new posting that hits the forum is not automatically sent to all members unless they have turned that feature on. (Jon may correct me on this) A member can elect to subscribe only to specific posts by hitting the "notify" button on that post. They will only receive email notification of that post. I was to be "notified" of this post and few others. It appeared that function had been disabled for me. But . . . Sparky adroitly identified the problem. :-D
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You think I can tell you about that feature? HAH! I've never tried it, but I guess now I'll have to do that. I want the machine to send each and every post to me - so I can "inspect" them to make sure it wasn't posted by a spammer or spambot, among other things. I'll turn on the notifier and see if it does what you say it does.
What? Why am I implying that I doubt you? Probably because I'm the kind of learner that does best by doing it myself after the teacher has shown me what to do, that's why.
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Jon, I have never had all “incoming” posts turned on. Even when Amo owned the forum I subscribed to only a few threads. That feature is incredibly important in our busy lives and allows us to “filter” or focus on what is of current interest. Every post is important; it is just that I have to optimize my time to just get through the day. . . I wish it wasn’t so.
I still get emails announcing new postings to the threads I have selected. It was just Tony’s thread that had stopped working. Since I resubscribed to his thread today everything is working fine.
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Hi everybody! If you log on every day (like me! :-D) and I'm sure Jon logs on more than once per day! 8-)
You can just hit "Show unread posts since last visit" this generally gives me a couple of pages (maybe three or so when an event is on)
Jon could see at a glance if any spambots had added to threads!
I just filter out what I want to read, this thread of course always on my list!
Sorry, back to normal programming.....
:mrgreen:
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I started working on the swirl tank for the GMC and was lucky enough to find some machined ends from Roush that I had lying around. The overall height will be 9-10" with a Wiggins on the bottom and a AN on top for the bleeder with three tapered inlets that will wrap around the tank to swirl the water as it comes in. I am setting up the engine as a dry-deck motor with a manifold on the block scavenging from all six cylinders and two returns from the head. Hopefully it should be done in the next few weeks. Tony
I still need to cut the cap mount off and add the AN fitting for the bleeder.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tanktop1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tanktop2.jpg)
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Wiggins, Wiggins?
Teaman, stop using those LIMEY words for parts, folks may think you're a sporty car guy who goes around wearing a beany cap with a propeller on it!
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IB, Wiggins clamps are a quick disconnect that are used for high pressure connections and are able to take a misalignment of about 3.5 degrees and makes for a very clean connection. Something I am used to from the sporty car world. Tony
picture from the net
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/wiggins.jpg)
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Thanks Tony. I googled Wiggins after your post and after about 4 pages of cities and people named Wiggins I gave up. :-D
Ron
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Wiggins invented and patented their clamp during WWII. It was one of the most reliable and highest quality you could buy. Because of many different manufacturesr today "wiggins" has become a generic name. Unfortunately, quality is all over the map and you can't rely on the sole source of years ago.
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Saltfever is 100 percent correct, you have to be very careful when using any of the off brand knock offs, especially the ones coming from China. All my clamps are Adel-Wiggins, and it gives me a piece of mind I wont have a failure http://www.adelwiggins.com/ Tony
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Anyone use the similar clamps Pegasus racing sells? I may look at stocking some of these not-so-common pieces with my new parts business.
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Trent, Why don't you just stock Adel-Wiggins and not worry about it? They have everything from -6 on up (I have some 4" clamps for my charge cooler). Tony
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I was just curious. Saw this type of thing a while back as I was learning.
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One of the main suspects on the REMR, Steve is the lead engineer on this years #79 Flying Lizard Porsche at Le Mans. Hopefully Steve and the rest of the Lizards will be able to bring the trophy back home. The consummate engineer, he has brought a drive with all the REMR drawings to work on his spare time. Unfortunately spare time at Le Mans is is unheard off. GOOD LUCK STEVE! Tony
Picture is of the car testing last week at Le Mans taken from the net
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/79.jpg)
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Tony -- it's an RMR -- think pRegMant lakesteR.
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Stan, Why don't you turn to the dark side and build one? Those street roadster guys are tough. Tony
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Hi Tony
I started to hear two words in the late 50's Adel clamps & Lord mounts, when you wanted to mount a object right you used those two products.
Used a bunch over the years, can just amagine how many Adel clamps they have made ? We could buy them in all the Aircraft surplus stores here in the S.F.V. for years.
I really enjoy seeing your fine work & racing knowledge building the 2 salt cars, since i was a engine guy your tricked up inline 6 gets my attn for sure.
Don
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Does the #79 Porkie have negative camber both front and rear?
FREUD
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"Never a drip with a Jubilee Clip" and old English saying.
Rex
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"Never a drip with a Jubilee Clip" and old English saying.
Rex
Those English cousins, why cant they just call the bloody thing a hose clamp? But then again Jubilee clip sound better and like the Wiggins clamps all Jubilee clips aren't the same either.Tony
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Don, I still get most of my Adel clamps & Lord mounts at the surplus store by the Oakland airport. The only thing with them is you have to know the part number you are looking for. As for the GMC, its a labor of love and we are inching ever so close now. But all of it would not be possible with the help of the Ferguson's, Doug Robinson, Armond, Pete Ardema and a few others.
Freud, Man you have good eye sight, then again you can see that from your pictures. I never noticed that about the car, I will ask Steve next time we talk. Tony
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Hi Tony
Most of the surplus stores have gone bye bye here in the S.F.Valley, i think two left in N. Hollywood - Burbank area and they were everywhere in the 70's.
Used to live in E.L.A. and Doug's younger brother was a classmate of mine in Jr.Hi. then moved out here to the valley for Hi school and lost contact with all those guys.
Will send a pm about my Trans-Am days too in 69' with the Titus team.
Don
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Started making the three inlets for the water on the tank today. My friend made a tool to roll the taper into the inlets and it was all downhill from there. Tony
The tops of the tanks cut off and ready for the Wiggins and the An fitting.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/tankcut.jpg)
Home made tool for rolling the taper.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cone1.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cone2.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/cone3.jpg)
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After watching Steve and the Lizards crash out while leading the 24hrs, decided to get some work done on the tank. Thanks to Rex, I was able to sort out the baffling for inside the tank. Tony
This is one of the finished cones fitted to the tank.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/stank1.jpg)
The top and the bottom ones were welded before the center one to keep the distortion down. The recycled tube had a port on one side which will be used as a drain and another one was added on the opposite side for the water temp sensor.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/stank3.jpg)
The wrap of the tank to aid the swirl.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/stank5.jpg)
Finally the finished tank. The pictures are with the bottom of the tank with the Wiggins fitting on top.
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/stank6.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/stank7.jpg)
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Tony please show us a naked picture of the tool---thanks sparky
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Tony please show us a naked picture of the tool---thanks sparky
This is a little personal, I don't think I could post a naked picture of my tool without getting chastised from Slim. :evil: But I will post a picture of the tool used to make the cones as soon I get a chance to take a picture of it. :cheers: Tony
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Can you splain the water and the swirly thing?
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+1 for the tool pic please Tony.
I will have 2 engine outlets that I was going to Y together, run a single line to a swirlpot/air damper chamber and a bypass thermostat after that, would it be worthwhile running both lines to the swirlpot rather than Y-ing them together?
Running a pre-pressurized system.
Thanks
jon
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Tony: While I admit to no interest in seeing your tool - - it'd be fine with me to send along a photo (or many) of your avatar subjects, each showing the various tools they're equipped with. :evil: :-D
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Hi Slim
I was just wondering if you could put a gizmo in the Avatar pic's , so then they can enlage to look at them.
Thanks, Don
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Can you splain the water and the swirly thing?
Tman, The basic function of the swirl tank (pot) is to bleed of the steam that comes through the system. In our case this tank is deigned for the GMC 302. We are building it as a dry deck motor and are feeding the water at the side of the block and pulling it out in six spots just blow the deck and for the head we are feeding the water above the spark plugs and pulling it out at either end of the head.
When the water is returned to the tank it starts to swirl and the steam goes to the top, where it is bled off to the header tank. The good water drains back to the radiator and back through the system.
Jon, You shouldn’t have a problem running the two lines to a “Y” and then to the swirl pot. The only thing I would do if you can is run the “Y” further away from the swirl tank as possible to keep the water from being too turbulent. Tony
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Tony--you stretch us so :-o so-- neat to learn about these ALL these things you are exposed to at the other racing venues you attend and participate in!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
gizmo in the Avatar pic's , That would requre a double secret decoder ring which might be a good "
FUNd RAISER
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Hi Slim
I was just wondering if you could put a gizmo in the Avatar pic's , so then they can enlage to look at them.
Thanks, Don
How about scratch n sniff while you are at it!? :-o
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Sparky and Jon, This is the homemade tool for making the cone shape for the inlets of the swirl tank. Once you get the cone shape you cut off the overlap on a band saw and then weld the seem. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/shapingtool.jpg)
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Tman and DND -- and probably others who are wise enough not to publicly advertise their baser instincts:
You guys are pigs! But I still love you, don' chew worry 'bout dat.
As I remember, the avatar photo is reduced in (file) size when it is assumed into the Profile -- and so can't be enlarged from the avatar that we see on the screen. Too bad, hey? I admit it might be an interesting way to raise funds for the site -- selling the secret code for enlarging - but not just now. Donations anyway are always welcome, though.
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if you are on a tablet , you can enlarge them.
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It’s been a while since my last post, but we have been making steady progress. Woody has done lots of CFD work on parts of the car he thought could be optimized better and is close to finalizing it. With the new shape we lost some space in the front, which required that Steve redesign the front suspension and use rockers to reposition the shocks. We also took the rear brakes out of the air stream and moved them inboard, which required the use of four calipers to eliminate the flex at the transaxle axle flange. Tony
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Welcome back, Tony. Missed your quality photos of the various tools, hardware, and other suprises! :-D
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Good to see you're back Tony. Now I gotta speed scan your build page to get back on track. :cheers:
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I have been swamped with work and haven't had a chance to work on anything for a while. But this weekend my machinist friend Kevin committed to a solid 1 day a week till all the remaining machined parts are finished. The rear will be the first priority while Steve finishes up the new front suspension layout in between his race duties. We should be seeing some good progress soon. Tony
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is it soon yet?????????????? :?
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Good one, Sparky! :-D I was just thinking about Tony the other day and was just about to bump thread. Hope everything is fine, Tony.
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Thanks for the concerns, calls and emails everyone. Some of you already know that I have been working on a new start up company that is alcohol based (not beer). Working with bottlers, distributors, the government and licensing issues of 50 countries (thiefdoms) has taken a lot of time out of the day. I wish there was another 8 hours in the day to get everything done. I have not had a chance to work on the car but Kevin and the other suspects have been busy. Unfortunately this year I was not able to make Bonneville, but did see many of you at LARS earlier and was able to catchup. Tony :cheers:
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Oh the over powering drive :-o of a capitalist with an idea---ain't it great!!!!!!!!!
Go Tony Go!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Oh the over powering drive :-o of a capitalist with an idea---ain't it great!!!!!!!!!
Or a guy needing a way to support his LSR habit! :-D :-D Good luck, Tony.
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Hello,
I found the thread a few months ago and wanted to say thanks for some inspiration over the spring. I built a rmr with some similar elements over the winter and ran in August. I used a transaxle out of a ford GT. I was very happy with the way the car drove and I attribute a lot of that to the IRS especially since people were having such a hard time getting down the course this year.
Its been awhile since I read back... what motor are you planning on?
Eddie
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Wishing you luck Tony! I am still working hard trying to get this company off the ground peddling hot rod and performance parts!
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Eddie, I have been very busy with work and haven't had a chance to get on the beards or work on the car. We have several motor plates for the car, the one I have is for the IRL and GMC, but we also did one foe the SBC and BBC for the others that want to run them. Though I haven't had a chance to work on it lately, Kevin has been machining lots of the parts. I really like how you did your car! :cheers:
Tman, its been a lot of work but we are getting there. The good think is its alcohol related and i get to sample lots of it. :-D :-o :evil: Hang in with you project it will pay off in the end. Tony
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Its been a while and since I had a chance to update the build. But we have been working on the roadster and its starting to come together. We had to some changes to the car for packaging issues and had to redo the drivers pod. On the aero side Woody has made some great strides. More to follow: Tony
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OK Tony, some eye candy for the masses! :-D
You tear the air - we try to repair the air! :-o
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Great to see you back at it, Tony. I understand the changes made at the rear of the car (as represented in Woody's pics) from my changes to our RMR in 2013 and a trip to the A2.
Sent you a PM. vic
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Vic, Its been a long road and the light at the end of the tunnel is much brighter. All I can say is Woody is a magician, he took a barn door and made it an outhouse door. We had to change some things in order to get everything to wok together and fit. The big change was the driver tub, Steve redesigned it and just finished it up before heading off to the 24hrs and surprised me with 67 drawings for it. :-o He has designed a lot of tubs (Indy car and GTP) in his career and I am confident everyone that drives this car will be safe. Tony
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Nice to see you back Tony.
Woody or Tony I notice low pressure along the top of the front wheel struts or the A-arms. Although I see the leading edge is high pressure. But isn't low pressure on top of those parts creating lift? Is it as simple as changing the pitch angle to the wind to eliminate it?
Beautiful work Woody.
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Wow, nothing gets pass you Saltfever. :cheers: I will let Woody answer your question, I am sure he will chime in soon. Tony
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Woody doesn't say if this is speed or pressure ---could be that the strut is symmetrical and self canceling
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Congratulations to Steve and the Flying Lizard crew on their first Daytona 24 hrs win. Steve has engineered a lot wins on many courses around the world but the Daytona 24hrs has alluded him. Also a congratulations is due to Woody who also had a hand in their win! This is even more amazing considering this is their first time out with the new Audi. :cheers: Tony
Picture is from mororsportsmedia racemsm.com
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Congratulations to Steve and the Flying Lizard crew on their first Daytona 24 hrs win. Steve has engineered a lot wins on many courses around the world but the Daytona 24hrs has alluded him. Also a congratulations is due to Woody who also had a hand in their win! This is even more amazing considering this is their first time out with the new Audi. :cheers: Tony
Picture is from mororsportsmedia racemsm.com
That was an amazing race and last 5 minutes! Thoughts go to Memo in his recovery.
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Congratulations to Steve and the Flying Lizard crew on their first Daytona 24 hrs win. Steve has engineered a lot wins on many courses around the world but the Daytona 24hrs has alluded him. Also a congratulations is due to Woody who also had a hand in their win! This is even more amazing considering this is their first time out with the new Audi. :cheers: Tony
Picture is from mororsportsmedia racemsm.com
WTF!?!?
Audi R8 LMS #45 relegated to second place
Organizers ask to excuse confusion caused
About four hours after the end of the race, the organizers of the 24 Hours of Daytona (USA) have issued a revised result for the GT Daytona class.
The IMSA revised their original decision to impose a time-penalty on the #555 Ferrari. The #45 Audi R8 LMS of Audi customer team Flying Lizard Motorsports, which had originally been declared as the winner of the race, was moved back to second place. The organisers have pleged all participants to excuse the confusion they have caused. The Team Flying Lizard Motorsports reserves further action against this decision and would like to comment not before Monday.
Romolo Liebchen, Head of Audi Sport customer racing: “It is unfortunate that the events after the race cast a shadow on a really great race in the Daytona GT class. Probably this race deserves two winners.”
The REMR is colored by coefficient of pressure on the body & wheels and velocity on the flow trajectories! Strut covers are set neutral so just as "blue" on the underside! Glad to see you guys are paying attention in between naps! :-o :-D
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Woody, I talked to Steve and he was really bummed out about the whole situation. But I guess this is to be expected when NASCAR took over the ALMS last year. :-o Tony
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Charlie came by with the finished header tank today. It has three shock mounts and a schrader valve to pressurize the system. Though its a small part of the car it took a bit to fab up. The one part that bugs me is that Charlie indexed the water neck so the cap is on sideways (his idea of being funny). Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/headertank_zps12ad6e7e.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/headertank_zps12ad6e7e.jpg.html)
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Tony, here's my version.
I found this old Aluminum fire extinguisher here.
My brother had polished it up to use as an ornament.
I put it on the lathe and cut it in half. The base is inverted so I flipped that over, got a filler neck and all I need is have it welded.
It will be held in position with one of those carbon mounts I have.
I think it will work.
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Mike, That looks nice. Does your brother know you took his polished fire extinguisher cut it up? :-o Tony
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Mike, That looks nice. Does your brother know you took his polished fire extinguisher cut it up? :-o Tony
Funny! Nice work guys :cheers:
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I am posting on Tony's thread to let you all know that we almost lost Tony a couple of months ago. He put on his shop shoes and a brown recluse spider was in the shoe and bit him on the toe and he has spent the last months in the hospital. They ended up taking a kidney and 20% of his liver! I talked to him today and he is on the mend and ready to start in earnest on his roadster project. I am sure he will be posting soon.
Rex
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There are a lot of ways for us to meet our demise.
This is a tough one for Tony.
Tony........I hope for the best for you. Being a REMR builder describes your toughness.
Welcome to survival.
OLD Freud
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Good grief! I'll never put on boots again without thinking of Tony. Get well quick!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Tony, I thought I was trying to spend time with doctors instead of working on the house.... and race car... looks like you win the prize.
Get better buddy, we want to see your car on the salt... not to mention more umbrella girls. :-D
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Get well quick Tony. We're missing you and all the ingenuity you bring to your projects.
Pete
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Holy Cr*p!! Da** those venomous arachnids!!
Get well soon Tony!!
Missing your posts, and their ingenuity.
Hope you are at the recovery point where you can have a suds, or other libation . . . . .
:cheers:
Mark
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Dayum! Sorry to hear about the misfortune Tony. Glad to hear you are on the mend. Hope to see you on the salt in August!
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Thanks Guys! :cheers: Now I just have to watch my alcohol intake. :-o Tony
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Get well Tony. :cheers:
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Glad you're getting better.
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tony:
Take care and get well. I have learned a lot reading your post and studying the photos. And at times I have found your avitars just as inspiring! So hang in there and get back to fabricating and building as soon as you can. Looking forward to seeing your next update.
BR
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Kevin started machining all the weldons for the rear suspension and the frame while we wait for the new push rod front suspension drawings from Steve. We are starting to make some headway with all the small parts. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/photo_zps84d51040.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/photo_zps84d51040.jpg.html)
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Tony;
What is a "weldon"? The only Weldon that I'm familiar with makes electric fuel pumps, etc.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Parts that are fabricated away from their intended use and then attached to the main structure by welding are often referred to as weldons.
Pete
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Parts that are fabricated away from their intended use and then attached to the main structure by welding are often referred to as weldons.
Pete
Oh, a "weld-on"; now I get it. I wasn't trying to be a wise Acura, I just never saw that word before. Thanks, Pete. :-P
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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It's one of those words that's probably used exclusively in a rather small industrial area and unless you've been exposed there's no reason to know the terminology. There are a few mass produced weldons. The best example I can think of is hinges and once you know about them you'll find all sorts of uses.
Pete
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Slightly easier to see?
It's a weldon.
FREUD
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They are weld-on parts and these are part of the rear frame where the control arms mount too. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/weldons_zpsdf0b650c.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/weldons_zpsdf0b650c.jpg.html)
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Go Tony go--- :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Finally the four weldons for the rear suspension is finished. These little buggers look simple but took some time to finish up. Now on to fishing up the rear suspension. Tony
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/finishedweldons_zps3648a413.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/finishedweldons_zps3648a413.jpg.html)
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Tony:
"weldone" :)
BR
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Tony:
"weldone" :)
BR
Thanks for the kind words. You wont believe this but those four little buggers took almost 25 hours to do. When you calculate what it takes to get any of our cars to the salt I think we work for pennies per hour if that. But that's part of the fun. :cheers: Tony
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Nice parts Tony. :cheers:
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Very cool parts Tony! Can't wait to see your car in person Keep up the good work! :cheers:
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We work for almost nothing to do this and what we make is priceless. Better than anything one can buy.
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I have been busy with the new venture and haven't been on here in a while, but progress has been going on. Woody has done a magicians job of getting the aero nailed down and Kevin has been busy making parts. The light at the end of the tunnel is starting to get bright. Tony
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Bright tunnels are a good thing, Tony. :wink: Good to hear your voice here again. :cheers: Wayno
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As long as there is no whistle in the distance! :-o :-D
Sorry, Tony I had a late rush job: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwadO0SCaFw
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Nice one Woody. :-D :-D :-D
Would trimming the antlers help?. :cheers:
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Woody, The flow around santa looks almost like the cockpit of the roadster. :-o Maybe some canards on Rudolf and a Gurney lip on the back might help. :cheers: Tony