Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: MiltonP on February 06, 2009, 11:05:48 PM
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Heading to a last minute bike show tomorrow unfortunately probably before I can get advice here. The inventory in the local shops for race leathers is poor to say the least. I am thinking that I may buy a set tomorrow if I find one that fits well and is priced reasonably. I am tempted by these advertised suits that have perforated non-critical areas after seeing everybody get toasted waiting in line at Maxton and Bonneville especially since I don't have a crew. I know our governing bodies allow some perforated sections but am not clear on whether those sections match up with those offered by the major reputable brands for roadracing. I would like to feel confident that buying a reputable brand suit will pass tech at least thru my sub-200 adventures. I will try to find a one piece i can manage buy will also consider two piece suits with good/managable zippers.
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Milt, scta has an all leather rule, perforations must be kept to a minimum. If you can't cover the area with the palm of your hand it is too much.
I think ECTA and Bub allow regular roadrace leathers. But let one of the regulars from those orgs let you know.
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I think everyone has pretty much found that no standard retail race suit has met the SCTA all leather rule. However if you can find a suit with only minimal cloth patches that are too large it's not that difficult to get them covered in leather.
The following is the pertinant part of the ECTA rule from 2008. I don't believe there will be any changes to the rule for 2009:
7.C.2 Leathers:
Leathers certified by a recognized manufacturer to be suitable for the application are required. One-piece suits or two-piece suits zippered together are allowed. Required over 175 MPH: One-piece leathers or two-piece leathers with full (270 degree) zipper. Also required over 175 MPH: Special protective armor, as produced by a recognized manufacturer, with minimum coverage at elbows, knees, shoulders, hips and back. Undergarments having the required armor coverage are acceptable, when the undergarment is worn with the required leather suit.
The big thing to check if you plan to go over 175 is that it has the armor for elbows, knees, shoulders hips & back. If it doesn't, check to see if it has pockets in the liner where it could be added. The armor can be purchased after the fact. Also as stated undergarments can be worn with armor. Personally I wear compression pants with the hip pads and a vest with back & chest protection.
I did request a change to the rules for 2009 in regards to 2 piece zip together suits but I don't yet know if it was adopted. I saw a lot of street leathers with the zipper that zips the pants to the jacket sewn to stretch panels that were several inches long so I requested that the wording state that the zipper should be sewn through the leather. It may apply to all, it may only be applied to the over 175 section or it may not have been adopted at all. Regardless, if you're buying a new 2 piece suit, for your benefit, get one with the zipper sewn into the leather. If you go down on that concrete with only that stretch panel covering 4-8 inches of your back you stand to suffer some serious road rash!
Good luck & have fun at the show.
Debbie
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Thanks Deb, Not sure what I will see there but may have some luck. It might take a blown Busa to get my 210 lbs over 175 but I will definitely error on the side of safety. :cheers:
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Darn, sounds like my joe rocket GPX 2 piece is a no go!! It has the zipper attached via material and then to strech material. I would like to go over 175, so I would probably not pass tech with this suit? It works fine at the local drags, but they dont even check my gear, which is kinda scary if you think about it.
Are there any companies that make land racing suits? I know its probably a small market, but someone could have a monopoly if they had a specific suit. I guess it would be advantages to have a suit custom made. Anyone have luck with a paticular company or someone who makes these to spec?
Im tall, so I really dont know if they makes cows big enough to cover me up? It might take 2 to get the job done. :-D :-D
still on the subject of racing gear, how long are helmets good for, I have a Suomy full face, that was manufactured 01/2005, its never been down, or dropped. I purchased it january 2007. Would it make tech? What about boots? Are there any brands to stay away from or ones that are recommended?
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BUB...................................................................................
Leathers:
The use of synthetic material riding suits is prohibited. The use of Kevlar and perforated material in non-critical areas are permissible. Leather suits may be one-piece design or joined together with a full circumference zipper at the waist. Critical area (knees, elbows, forearms, shoulders) armor or 2-layers of leather is highly recommended. Riders of motorcycles burning fuels of a methanol content are recommended to wear Nomex underclothing or something of similar nature.
Boots:
Leather boots of significant construction are required. They must be at lease 8 inches high with either lace, zipper and buckle, or specially
designed and constructed for leg and foot protection. SUBJECT TO SCUTINEERING.
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1M14:
Z Custom Leathers (www.zcustom.com) will make you a suit of leathers that is 100% acceptable for SCTA and ECTA and Bub's and such. They custom-fit them to the measurements that you supply. The cost for a nice suit was around $800 a few years ago when we last got new suits -- I don't know if that has changed. There are other manufacturers that make acceptable leathers, too -- the "top-brand" companies do, but I'm not familiar with which ones they are.
Anyway -- if you go to Z Leathers make sure you tell them that the suit will be used for land speed racing, and remind them about things like perforations and zippers and so on. But -- they'll be legal if you ask for 'em that way. By the way -- my suit, including built-in armor, three colors, custom die-cut lettering, two-piece with the right zippers -- was about $1500. Now you know a price range.
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SSS, thanks for the link. I got to thinking, instead of buying a new suit, I could have this one altered. It already has all of the armour built in, and it has no perferations, just the dang zipper is a bust. I emailed Z customs about altering this 2 piece to bring it up to code. Hopefully they can put in a metal zipper that is attached right.
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1mile, that rule is not a done deal just a heads up that I recommended it. The powers that be may completely kick it out so please wait on the rulebook.
My biggest concern is that I was seeing suits with as much as 8", 4" on each side, of the stretch panel that contains the zipper. In my opinion that is too much give if you're sliding & your leathers roll up or down. Even if it's not a rule I would recommend against that much stretch material. I'm ok with a few inches but for me 8" is half my back!!!
Again, please wait on the rulebook before you go doing alterations for the ECTA. And this was only recommended for the ECTA due to the abrasiveness of our concrete track.
Debbie
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1mile, that rule is not a done deal just a heads up that I recommended it. The powers that be may completely kick it out so please wait on the rulebook.
My biggest concern is that I was seeing suits with as much as 8", 4" on each side, of the stretch panel that contains the zipper. In my opinion that is too much give if you're sliding & your leathers roll up or down. Even if it's not a rule I would recommend against that much stretch material. I'm ok with a few inches but for me 8" is half my back!!!
Again, please wait on the rulebook before you go doing alterations for the ECTA. And this was only recommended for the ECTA due to the abrasiveness of our concrete track.
Debbie
Well, I agree with you. After looking at my suit, it has 4 inches of material from the zipper, and then it is not connected to the leather, just the liner. I may just have it done to be on the safe side. Ill wait for the new rule book though to make a move.
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All cow racing leathers are available from Bates, Vanson or Langlitz on a special order basis.
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I have had good success with eBay and Craigs list in getting older suits that are all leather. Got a Vanson for my son for 95.00 and a Kushitani from CL for 110,needed as bit of sewing on this one,but still cheaper than new. Course the leathers we were using before were fine as well,just not all cow.
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if i was riding one of those bikes i think i would run the same leathers that the kid who crashed at speedweek was wearing. i saw it on youtube and i think he walked away from that crash.
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You are referring to Jason McVicar ? He did walk away .... a bit stiff but any landing you walk away from is a good landing.
Joe
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I think as long as you have quality leather and especially when running the higher speeds all the armor like what's required at the ECTA you stand to be reasonably well protected from the slide and to some extent the impact. I think the best thing anyone can do is to play the what if game. Look objectively at the gear you are or have chosen. Then envision what will occur in the event you have a get off. Are your knees & elbows protected from impact to the ground & sliding (important on our abrasive concrete)? How about your back? What if you slide for a while, can your 2 piece suit roll up? One of the things we've learned from the LSR bike incidents I've seen is that loose leathers will twist and burn your skin so make sure they fit snug. Just think of the rub ("Indian") burns we used to give as kids then add a lot more slide to it! Those wounds will heal relatively quickly but why not prevent the burn & risk of infection by getting properly fitting or tailored leathers.
Debbie
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i would get a set that was acceptable to all
sanctions with as much armor as possible. you never know where you
might end up running.(or falling)
one pc. is probably the better choice.
franey
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the suit maker can leave extra room for
an add on back protector; to be worn under leathers.
franey
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Barnacle Bill's Racing Leathers in Springfield, KY might be worth looking at. They've done LSR leather, all cow, with the speed bump option behind the head for partial streamline classes.
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I ended up getting a Revit Silica 1 piece suit. Won't be legal for SCTA, due to the perf and stretch panels, but such is life. I was impressed that I fit nicely in a standard size. I was expecting that I might fit in a Joe Rocket but did not find anywhere to try one on and I think this is better, or at least similar, in build quality. The local Ducati shop here, which is racing focused, stocked one in each common size for trying them on. It includes removable armour for shoulders, elbows, knees and back though I am upgrading the back armour to a nicer one with that material that hardens when hit.
Only question I have is the legality of the small hump on the back which just about every suit has nowadays. I am assuming it is the oversized ones that are a problem.
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discount leather
http://www.discount-leather.net/
will have you send in measurements, pick your design - and they will have a custom suit to you in 2 - 3 weeks to your specks!. Last I checked - about 500 bucks. I think he has somebody in packistan sew em up and ship em over. I've seen em - good quality - he can make em with or without the hump - or have the hump pouch built in with a zipper so you can add the foam or remove it - depending on class.
Just another possible source for those of you looking for an affordable all leather option!
Carl Johansson
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check bohn armour-couple diff. web sites ; don't know if they have morphing material though.
i think fairing hump is only legal in partial streamline class with scta(?).
franey
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I do see that SCTA only has it legal in PS however I don't see it mentioned in the ECTA rulebook and don't have anything on hand for BUB. Would be a real bummer to go out there someday and be forced to configure the bike so it is legal to run in Partial Streamlined just so I could make runs. Was thinking about cancelling the suit but it seems that 90% of the OTS suits I looked at online had the hump. I figured they assume some kind of safety benefit in addition to providing ventilation down the back. I did see some suits with oversized humps that seemed to specifically target aerodynamics.
:roll: OK, Found BUB AMA Supplement and appears OK there as well. Would have been surprised if FIM had rule against them since just about every euro suit has one.
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There is a lot to think about in leathers than price. The first and most obvious is the conformation to the rule requirements armor has been mentioned but I think the key most critical aspect is the stitching…. Look at it… is it just single stitched? Does it have additional patches sown OVER the critical joining like in the shoulders, elbows, knees etc? Can you stretch the sown pieces apart in inspection and see daylight? And what about the stitching? ASK! Is it Pakistani camel hair or American Kevlar thread? Do these guys just make race suits, or do they supply racers and know what it takes to make a crash worthy suit? How old are these leathers, ever wear a 10 year old pair of pants and blown the azz out of em? Yep the 10-year-old cotton stitching on those old ebay leathers will give up pretty quick…. And lastly, how much is your insurance deductible? Is it a wise thing to spend $500 instead of $1200 if your deductible for skin grafts is $3000? Buy the best suite that conforms to the toughest rules and you’ll be happy you did…
Kent
The Common Law of Business Balance
There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you loose a little money-that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes loose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The Common Law of Business Balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot-it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it's well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better
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I agree with alot of the stuff you say Kent, but sometimes it's not the quality that is driving the prices - it's the "coolness Factor". For example 2 helmets both meeting Snell 2005 - both of the same materials - one costs 2X as much as the other - because of a brand name.
I'm completely interested in safety - as is anyone here. What I am not interested in is someone charging me 2 or 3 times as much because the have the current cool color combination- or graphics - or brand name. Particularly when often the 2 products are coming out of the same industrial complex - and cost the same to manufacture! Building brand name is important - it allows you to charge 2X as much for the same piece of kit!
As for the suits I am speaking of - Yes they are used by road racers - guys who use them 20 or 30X per year - in applications where they are moving and bending and stretching all the time. And they hold up great - and skid across the pavement with the best of em! And get more use/and abuse during a year than a salt racer would get in 5 years!
So I guess I wonder why other suits cost 3 or 4 X as much!
As for the hump - there are companies out there (including Discount Leathers) who will put in a zipper into the hump compartment - so you can pull the foam - or change the foams size - or put a camelback unit into it if you wish!
Just my 2 cents worth
Carlk Johansson
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Good grief, I find myself in agreement with Mr. Riches on his points of both paragraphs.
Most leather is tanned and stained overseas, due largely to environmental issues, but 45 years go we knew enough to bring our own thread to Tijuana for discount upholstery work and knowing there would be no customer service either.
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milton p,
bub rules are not out for 2009.
franey
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If BUB has changed to an all-cow rule similar to SCTA based on analysis of last years incident(s) then I suppose I will join the many who will need a second suit to run out there. Actually, I was a little surprised when I saw that professional road racers were wearing somewhat thin perforated suits with stretch panels, then again their incidents usually take place at lower speeds and relatively smooth asphalt. If this protection isn't safe at higher speeds on our surfaces then I will make the change when my speeds progress. It never hurts to have a road circuit type suit since I may want to attend a track day sometime down the road. :cheers:
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IMO I would not allow anyone with any kind of perforation in the leathers. ALL leather everywhere. 1 piece would be the best, but 2 piece zipped together at the leather not the stretch panels. NO PERFORATIONS. I saw what happens to a rider who wore perforated leathers. Perforations are like pre-ripping the leathers. Once they have a hole, no matter how small, it just rips apart from there when stressed during a crash. Brass eyelets in the armpits and back of knees. But this is just my 2 cents, but the rules committee should adopt these rules. I believe in the SCTA ALL leather rules. No discount leathers, your body should not be discounted. All Leather Premium leathers for anyone who wants to travel faster than 175. If you can afford a bike that will take you to those speeds, you should invest in the leathers.
I challenge any person to tell me that perforated leathers are better protection than all leather cowhide, not kangaroo, not lamb, but all COW!
my opinion only.
Guy
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Guy I agree 100%
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Here are some pictures of my 2 piece. I know DaMurf has said the rules have not been changed yet, but my suit has been a heavy thought. I would like to get a custom 1 piece, but the cards allow for me to modify this suit. I dont want a cheap suit, but if I can modify this suit to meet my needs and give me extra protection, I am all for it. Even if the rules dont change at least my suit will give me that extra piece of mind, and I can focus on racing.
This first pic shows what the strech panel looks like in the arm pit area.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/onelapduster/pics959.jpg)
The second pic shows the strech panels in the rear calf area.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/onelapduster/pics956.jpg)
The third pic shows the inside strech panel. The zipper is attached to strech materil then to the inner liner. I dont feel this is safe. I know this could be acceptable, but for safety sake, I want to change it. I have thought of 2 ways to fix this.
1: remove the zipper and add leather to replace the strech material attaching it to the leather of the jacket and adding a metal zipper.
2: converting this suit into a 1 piece.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e126/onelapduster/pics954.jpg)
So, using my suit as an example of a name brand offering, what should I be concerned with, and what should I focus on doing to make this suit better suited to protect me?
I found this site that deals with repairing leathers. http://www.angelfire.com/art2/speedsportleathers/AFrontPage.html
I was told they could make my 2 piece into a 1 piece for 150. And I can have it by the april meet. I still need to call tomorrow and find out what kind of stitching thread they use. But for the price, I can either get what I paid for, or get a deal? Does anyone have any experience with Speedsport Leathers?
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I see where you are coming from Guy, but I wouldn't class the leathers I chose as discount. The roadracers I spoke with insist that the technology used in the design and assembly combined with the quality of the leather hides used in their suits are as safe, or safer, than a all-cow suit for their racing. If not the top manufacturers would be forced by the racers to offer all-cow as an option. They also feel they have 'crash-tested' them at speeds approaching 200 mph enough to trust them. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if they have traded off some safety for the flexibility they need for road racing and you may be right about speeds over a certain point warranting all-cow drag suits.
As to the choices out there in all-cow suits, the few OTS (off-the-shelf) drag suits I found only talked up the hide thickness and didn't give me the impression of using advanced seam design/location. That left custom suit vendors such as Barnacle Bills, Z-Line, etc... I want to see how I feel running 120-140 mph on a bike and also see some of those vendors' suits in person before taking the plunge and ordering a custom LSR/drag specific suit. It would be a serious bummer for me and other newcomers not to be able to run speeds up to 150, or whatever is deemed safe, in quality road-racing leathers. Of course, if we can't take the plunge and opt out then those who have will get more runs. Sure there are those who won't mind that. :cheers:
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1mile
Yes i have dealt with Amanda at speed sport many times... not only have i recommended her to members of this forum but she made my set of leathers...not fixed, she completely made my set... I don't think she will do this for anyone but she did it for me because i have sponsored her racing since she moved here from the UK.... tell her i said Hi!
Kent
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1mile, I am not sure if you do any street riding or road course events, but if you are, it may be worth it to do the conversion to a one piece even if you relegate the suit to that use only. The racers I spoke with all insisted that one piece suits were more comfortable, in addition to being safer, due to less bunching of material and two-piece hardware. Not sure if that will apply as well to your particular conversion though. I didn't note what speeds you would be runnning at Maxton. Personally, I will probably be looking at moving to a drag/lsr specific suit if I mve to a bike capable of speeds well above 150 mph. I may also change if running the salt as the consensus seems to be that it doesn't mix with perf or stretch panels.
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1212FBGS-- Thank YOU!! I dont think ill have a problem sending this suit to her now. What caught my attention on her site was the 18 years of sewing, and being a master FAA rigger. The attention to detail that goes with that really struck me as someone who does the best work every time out, no room for short cuts.
MiltonP-- Mostly street riding, and some non competative drag racing. I will probably turn this into a 1 piece as it will be a track only suit. I am looking at eventually getting over 200mph, so having the suit ready for high speeds is a must. No salt in my future, but who knows!? I can see a turbo down the line for this bike, just depends on if the wife gets into this sport and can get on board for uping the power.
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Guy I agree 100%
i agree also; but the speed should not matter. bikes that run 50 and 75 mph should use all cow too.
franey
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After personally seeing what happens to perforated leathers in a crash, I can not in good conscience tell anyone that they are OK. They are NOT. I understand truly that needs and cash flow dictate what you buy, but like a helmet, my head is worth the best and so is my ass. The stretch panels have to go. And COW is the best, it's proven and I want to see the suit that withstood a crash at 200mph made from anything other than COW. Bates make my suits, but you can get an all COW suit from many reputable makers. But remember that this is just my humble opinion. Manufacturers will tell you anything so that you will buy their suits. I double dare them to show me a suit that failed at 200mph that was made from anything other than COW. They won't because they can't. Kangaroo and lamb is too thin and has terrible shear strength. I would be remiss as a racer if I did not get my point across. You do what you feel you must, but do not take my warning lightly. Ask any experienced crash investigator who specializes in motorcycle accidents and there will be NO hesitation when they tell you what you should be wearing.
COW! Everywhere, COW. No synthetics, no stretch panels, no perforations. COW.
Did I mention your suit should be all COW?
Guy
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I had an all-cow set made by Syed Leathers in Orlando, FL, very tough, and reasonably priced.
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I have done post-incident analysis for another dangerous sport, cave-diving. We had to examine the some 27 deaths, some involving people we knew. If we learned anything, it is that you will find cases for anything know matter how much you believe it isn't possible. Yes, riders have had serious injuries wearing suits that were not all-cow but there are also a very large number of road racers going down on a regular basis, including some who apparently aren't very good or lucky, that have gone down over 20 times a year wearing suits with multiple fabrics. Injuries also occur with all-cow suits. If you look at many of the amateur and pro series require you will find it is 2 piece suits that almost all of them don't allow. All allow perforated leather in specific zones. Properly designed stretch zones also do a very good job of minimizing loose 'bunchy' leather that is well know to do serious damage to the skin during incidents.
I don't feel there is legitimate justification in declaring anything non all-cow unsafe especially in the 150 mph and below range. It is like saying we know better than all other series despite most of them having much more incident experience. If a ruling should come out on this, I hope that it is similar to the 4 wheel rules where more gear is required over a certain speed be it 140 or 150. We should also make an effort to make post-incident analysis public, after a cooling off period, so we can all feel comfortable with the rules.
One area where our sport does differ is with high speeds exceding 200. Only drag racing has that in common with us and I am not sure that they have it down to an a science. We are also unique in running on salt though road racers have some pretty rough gravel pits to deal with. I don't want riders wearing potentially inferior non all-cow suits, but we need to be sure that we don't end up with riders wearing inferior $350 all-cow drag suits due to a rash ruling if they would be safer in the $1000 road racing suit they already own.