Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: MiltonP on January 31, 2009, 12:08:27 PM
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I have been looking at possibly moving over to bikes later this year or next year and have a questions after browsing the shops and the rules/records.
1 - Does BUB follow the SCTA class breakdown? Had a little trouble deciphering there website.
2 - Are we the only organization that has seperate 2 stroke records?
3 - I have a great Ducati shop nearby. They pretty much said don't bother running Ducatis since their 2's don't stand a chance against the inline 4's. Does the same apply to running a Triumph inline 3, more specifically the 953 Speed triple? Would that be an exercise only in gaining speed versus being potentially chase records?
4 - Any thoughts on good choices for running in the 500cc class initially as the 600cc and up speeds rise dramatically?
5 - Would my current car number 9201 transfer over to a bike or would I need a new bike number? I may continue to run both but only one or the other at a event.
6 - For those that have run different riders on their bikes, how much speed differential have you seen between say a 160lb and 210lb rider? Does the same difference usually apply to the salt?
OK, I've probably used my allotment of questions so fire away. Thanks. :cheers:
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Milton: Welcome to the bike side. Much easier to transport, just as much fun and just as expensive as cars. BUB uses AMA and FIM classifications which are similar but not identical to the SCTA. Yes ECTA is the only organization to separate two strokes. For maximum performance the more cylinders the better so if you are serious about records an inline Japanese four is best. However all the records are difficult as most take that same path. In the 500cc class your alternate choices could be a Honda V4 Interceptor or a Suzuki RG500 two-stroke. The problem is that you are then working with 20yo technology. I would find a modern 600-4 (must be a million for sale cheap) and reduce it's displacement to 500. Once you start putting money into a project it is best to use something that can be made competitive. Probably easier to get a separate bike number, how about 9202 ? I am sorry to say this but a 160lb rider can set records, 200+ is too big a handicap, particularly on smaller bikes. The exception might be at Bonneville with extreme bodywork. Hope I haven't scared you too much, keep asking questions there is something that will work for you. Larry
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Larry for got to mention that a log book is required for each vehicle and probably the number as well.
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So what I should do then is build it, enjoy whatever speed my beer gut will allow and then let Murf try to set a record on it! :-D
Continued browsing shops this afternoon and ran across a '01 GSXR750 with 8"drag extensions and nitrous at what appears to be a sweet price since the guy who took it on trade just wants it out of there. Not as pretty as that Speed Triple but a more practical platform. I also stopped by Skip's Speed Shop where 'one of us' apparently has a turbo build in progress. Looks like they do some very Harley work. There is a HD powered sprint car in the shop that wasn't allowed to run with the 650cc microsprints. Maybe we need a 2nd sprint car to go with the small block red one from NY.
The guy in the shop was also talking about how Banshees have become real popular for drag racing with folks lowering and extending them. He had started a 350cc project but it has stalled due to other work. He said it was hitting 100 as is and was not twitchy at all as far as handling despite not being lengthened yet. Pretty sure we don't have a class that would allow them but maybe one could form the basis for a bike powered lakester of some sort. Goinfg to read up on them a little this afternoon.
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The AMA rule book can be down loaded off the Bub website ... It is similar to ECTA but there are differences ... example seat/tail piece can only be 36" high AMA -- 40"ECTA ... better to read and understand the rule book before you build it.
Joe
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A 500cc class record could probably be done with a honda cx500 turbo. :wink:
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That was one ugly motor (500cx honda) What years did they make those 80 to 85 ?? Cant remember.
My old CB 550 fout K did go over 100mph (did have cam, carb and exhaust work however)
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While they are now approaching collector status, the old H1 Kawasaki's (500cc triples) could be tweaked pretty high for drag use. Primitive piston port design actually works well at high RPM with the right expansion chamber design.
The RG500 though... I'm thinking they tuned those engines past 120hp for roadracing versions? That would be hard to touch in a NA 500cc gas engine.
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The Suzuki " water buffalo" was a good running and reliable 2 stroke.
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Water buffalos were great 750cc triples, but were overshadowed by the H2 750 Kaw which had a solid weight advantage and more hop-up stuff available. While not remarkable by today's standards, I watched a "tuned-up" H2 Kaw run high 9 sec ET's at OCIR back in the '70s. My poor little stock H1 never even got out of the 12's (actually fast back then for a stock bike), but some were running them to low 11's with all the tricks.
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The only problem with the H1 and H2 is you never knew when they were going to try to spit you off, for no good reason.
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The only problem with the H1 and H2 is you never knew when they were going to try to spit you off, for no good reason.
Well, you weren't SUPPOSED to try and go around corners! :D
The brakes were nothing to write home about either. Nor the mileage. Nor the comfort... Uh... They did great wheelie though!
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It sure was exciting to watch those Kawasaki triples snake their way through turns 8 and 9 at Willow springs though.
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Fred V,
I agree, the H1 and H2 Kawa's had big power for the day, but had very bad manners.. There was a reason they came stock with friction stlye sterring stabalizers !!!!! Head shake/tank slappers was a commom occurance between 90 and 100,,, if you had the b!@#.. and hung on you could drivepower through the the wobble.
I had a few of them and never seemed to get fully comfortale with the rude handling... but man they made mean drag bike, but for high speed long straights and the twistie's... hmm not so great in my book.
Charles
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McRat,
I also think Suzuki had a 900cc water cooled two stroke tripple as well...( I may be wrong but thought the 900 was the "water buffalo") maybe both called that, or maybe I recall the 900 incorrectly ??
Charles
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Suzuki, also had 2 stroke go fast small displacement street bikes.. The GT380 and GT500.. I recall a "Ram Air" version... anyone know what the Ram Air was for these bikes ?
Charles
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IIRC, the Ramair Suzukis had a scoop on top of their air-cooled two-stroke heads to reduce the power fade that all the air cooled 2str engines suffered with.
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I had 3 of the H1's, the first model was the MachIII and the worst mannered. Drum front brake, useless center-mount dampener, ~30 deg steering head angle?, they were unstable even in a straight line. Oddly, it had points and a distributor. Next two were the H1D and F, very similiar, more steering head angle, and provisions for two dampeners, but they only came with one. You had to order the other side. Came with electronic ignition, very rare back then. Even by adding a front disc didn't make them stop very well. Very few of the MachIII were sold compared with the disc models, and they are collectables, even though the worst of the breed. The H2 (750cc) was a gelding from the factory, scarsely quicker than the H1 when stock. But a Dremel tool, a few jets, and some chambers woke them right up.
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You are correct,,, it was a simple sheetmetal shroud to direct airflow to the top of the head/cooling fins..
It did seem to help... I liked my H1 and H2 better... as far as straight line WFO !!!!
Charles
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We drag raced a Kawi H2 triple back in the early 70's ... after 5 or 6 passes the entire bike was held together with duct tape ... it shook every part loose ... had plenty of power especially at the big end.
Joe
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It's not mine, but I think if someone wants to buy it -- I could convince the owner to part with the GT380 (I think it is that) that's stored in the warm and dry at my (ex) office. As I remember it was a poor runner when put away. The fins on the top of the head are shrouded by a cover piece -- I suppose to improve air flow. I could take a photo one of these days if someone wants to see it.
If there's interest in that bike - for whatever reason -- say so here and I'll get permission and a minimum for it, take some photos and put it in the "for sale" section of this Forum.
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The 2 stroke 500cc Yamaha RZ 500 and the Suzuki RD/RG 500 Gamma both made big power for their time and still have impressive numbers relative to many 4 stroke 500s.
I seen my first Yamaha RZ 500 this last year at SW but dont know what it ran but this bike and its engine in other vehicles have gone very fast.
Unfortunately both the RZ and RD/RG are very hard to find and you will basically have what you have....theirs not a bunch to do to one to make it faster and certainly not much aftermarket and I don’t think the aeros were very good on either bike.
My personal suggestion is to take ANY of the big 4’s 600cc bikes and have it de-stroked to 500.
The bone stock HP of a GSXR 600 is over 120 and I am confident that even destroked 100cc, a built motor based on the 600 could exceed 135-140 HP and that my friend will whoop one of the old school 2 smoke 500s.
ALSO,
The guy was correct about the Cats.....they are great in corners but.....
~JH
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We drag raced a Kawi H2 triple back in the early 70's ... after 5 or 6 passes the entire bike was held together with duct tape ... it shook every part loose ... had plenty of power especially at the big end.
Joe
That actually helped! Otherwise you'd never get those cheap steel phillips head bolts out of the clutch cover! :D
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The only problem with the H1 and H2 is you never knew when they were going to try to spit you off, for no good reason.
As a long time fan of the RD, I also thought it was my duty to point out that the Kawi triples have an even longer reputation of eating the middle piston at WFO.
Mark
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A Yamaha RD would do the trick with a little help from these people, enjoy.
http://www.twostrokeshop.com/two_stroke_shop_engines.htm
Sam. :wink:
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i got one for sale $15K
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Waterbuffalo... we called them waterbottles or tea kettles,750cc funny thing was it didn't take long to get used to the flexing frame and we would hit the bends hard with the whole lot flexing in a motion that reminds me of a small boat
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Sam, The Two-Stroke Shop website you linked to almost makes me want to pack my bags and head to Australia! Well that and the fact that it is 10 degrees outside! :cheers:
Thanks for all the info folks. If I can keep my paws off of that beautiful 953 Speed Triple up the road I may look for a good 600 cc candidate to destroke to 500. Should be doing some tests on the Miata within the next 2 weeks to see whether I want to continue investing in it versus a different platform or possibly both it and a bike.... 8-)
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955 Speed Triple.Sweet bikes, I ride a 955 Sprint ST.
Unless you are looking at the real small CC classes you should stick with modern 4 strokes.
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Here is what has caught my eye so far with visits to 5 or 6 shops. On the used front there is the sweet 2003? 955? Speed Triple that was not tracked at all by a Triumph fanatic who has to own at least everything once. :-) He did keep this around for 5 years but didn't crank the miles on it with less than 10k I believe. babied and very sweet looking which of course doesn't make it go faster.
The only other real interesting used bike so far is a 2001 GSX-R 750 with a interesting story I am just picking up on. Guy buys bike with dreams of racing it but dies before getting anything done. Family member inherits the bike. Puts 'In memory of..." plate near the ignition switch and proceeds to works with shop to add 8' drag extensions, nitrous hardware, etc... but supposedly becomes intimidated by the bike and never runs it after adding the hardware. Now it sits in a enclosed trailer at the shop that did the work and although they can put it back to stock trhey essentially want it out of there. While I don't sound very sensitive in the past few lines, if I got this bike I would do my best to get the full story and go ahead and keep the 'In memory of...' plate onit if it doesn't interfere and the story is honest. I didn't get a good look but my understanding is the nitrous was never used and the buttons were not properly located to use it, i.e... centered.
Interesting new bikes just out that could be 'different' to run were as follows. A new 650 Suzuki FI inline 4 650cc that runs around $2-3k below the 600cc racers. A YamahaWR250R? 250cc single supermoto bike that has FI and a 6 speed tranny tp differentiate it from previous supermoto offerings. I believe Suzuki already offers hardware to lower the rear 3". Not overly inspired by the new 500cc offerings and don't really want to fork over the $$$ for the new, big 'instant speed' bikes
New post coming right up on Leathers Question since last minute potential shopping opportunity came up.
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The Triumph Speed Triple is a Great bike for about any type of riding on the road. I put 65,000 mile on a 2000 with everything from touring to Nova Scotia to track days. But if your goal is to achieve a record it would not be the bike due to the competition that is already in that class.
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/todlcole/TodandKariridingMedium.jpg)
The Suzuki 750 will give you something that will be competetive and it sounds like would have a story to go with it. Of course set up would have you staying up late at night both dreaming of what can be done and then doing it.
What worked out for me was an Ebay Triumph 600 that was already turbo charged. I only had a few sleepless nights. Keep learning and before you know it you will be joining all the great people on this forum.
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq78/todlcole/GotSaltSmall.jpg)
Tod
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I think I may be 'Double-Joined?' already since I have run both Maxton and Bonneville on 4 wheels, however; they say it takes two to tango so I am probably going to have to give 2 wheels a shot as well. Note that I said Double-Joined, not Double-Jointed! :roll:
Still trying to define my goals. I dove to 197 feet back in my adventurous scuba diving days and never gave it much thought back then but being that close to 200 and not making it is not something I think I want to repeat with racing. Fastest I have been on a bike in the past is around 85 mph but those who have ridden old BMW Paris-Dakars understand why I stopped there! Never was a fear factor just didn't like getting beat up in the breeze. I expect the sport riding position combined with a modern steering stabilizer to be a much more comfortable experience at higher speeds.
PS - That green looks like the Speed Triple I looked at
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Triumphs! PLEASE more Triumphs! I'm giving them a bad name.