Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Rchop on January 29, 2009, 03:37:12 PM
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I'm gonna need some help here. I'm a motorcycle guy that's gonna try my hand at 4 wheels. I figured a small belly tanker was as close to 2 wheels as I can get, so Joe Daly and I are gonna build a tank.
I'm open to any suggestions, advice, recommendations, etc.
Here's our plan so far...
We will try to locate a real tank, but we'll probably end up with a fiberglass P38 replica. I have a 2005 GSXR motor setting in my shop, so we will probably run in the J/GL class.
(http://www.frsengineering.com/bt1.jpg)
We are planning on running a chain driven live axle in the rear and suspension is a must front and rear since we are building for Maxton. I've been looking at early Ford axles for the front.
I need a Suzuki tank just to get this engine running on the test stand, so I'll be watching eBay for one.
I was thinking of using my existing Suzuki hand controls on the steering just to make things simple. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated.
Randy
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Randy, try Suzukihayabusa.org for the tank,There is a lot of gixxer stuff there.
Fred
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Thanks Fred, I'll check it out.
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Randy, don't spend money on a tank, yes the stunters dent up a lot of them, but the others buy them up and they are a little expensive to ship. Why not just get a bosch or walbro and a regulator since you will need those later for the car. Build or buy a fuel cell (you'll need that too) and you won't be wasting a lot of your racing cash.
I have a home-made tank and probably a stock pump I am not using from the race bike, if you want to borrow it I'll ship it to you for shipping expenses but I'll need the pump back for speedweek. PM me.
You will also need to defeat a few safety items and the anti-theft to make it run outside the bike.
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Thanks stainless, PM sent.
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Depending on driver size perhaps you should consider a more modern tank.Years agoe I saw an F-100 tank with an Model B engine. An A-10 tank set a record at Bonneville in Aug with an inline Mercedes and blower.
We am building a lakester and will build a backengined dragster style body. Shipping a tank can be a very
expensive project 1-2X the cost of the tank.
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I was thinking of using my existing Suzuki hand controls on the steering just to make things simple. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated
With controls on a steering wheel it will prevent you from having a removable wheel, may not be a big deal also you will not be able to turn the wheel more than about 280 degrees.
I know others have put controls on wheels but I dont like the idea of the throttle on the wheel. Once the car gets going you dont need to use the clutch to shift but trying to steer and meter the throttle (and it is a high ratio) will make things busy.
I would use a clutch and throttle peddle and it is easy to integrate them to a MC motor.
Just my 2 cents.
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I ordered a Rod and Race P38 tank and had it shipped from WV to MN. I did pick it up at the terminal here in town but shipping was only $290.00 and this was just in December. I had quotes from other companies that were only one state away that were over $1000.00 so it pays to shop around. Mine was shipped via Estes Trucking.
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I keep mentioning my shipper worth a try: www.uship.com It's like an eBay for shipping in the way that it works. Go to their website and see what they do - before next time you need something shipped. I've found their prices to be good every time, and the service was dandy, too -- maybe better than most trucking companies. And -- Uship will pick up and deliver from your door and to your door. They can ship to a loading dock -- they can ship to anything. The "bid" form asks you if you're shipping to a dock or a house or what - so the bidders know what type of truck will be needed to do the load.
I'm not knocking the traditional trucking firms -- just trying to let others know that there is a little-known option worth checking.
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Depending on driver size perhaps you should consider a more modern tank.Years agoe I saw an F-100 tank with an Model B engine. An A-10 tank set a record at Bonneville in Aug with an inline Mercedes and blower.
We am building a lakester and will build a backengined dragster style body. Shipping a tank can be a very
expensive project 1-2X the cost of the tank.
We will be open to just about any tank, but my first choice was the P-38 tank or replica just because I like the "classic" style. I am retired, so I can get drive to pick one up for just the cost of gas.
With controls on a steering wheel it will prevent you from having a removable wheel, may not be a big deal also you will not be able to turn the wheel more than about 280 degrees.
I know others have put controls on wheels but I dont like the idea of the throttle on the wheel. Once the car gets going you dont need to use the clutch to shift but trying to steer and meter the throttle (and it is a high ratio) will make things busy.
I would use a clutch and throttle peddle and it is easy to integrate them to a MC motor.
Just my 2 cents.
All good points to consider JH, thanks
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I ordered a Rod and Race P38 tank and had it shipped from WV to MN. I did pick it up at the terminal here in town but shipping was only $290.00 and this was just in December. I had quotes from other companies that were only one state away that were over $1000.00 so it pays to shop around. Mine was shipped via Estes Trucking.
How is that Rod and Race P38 tank? Are you happy with the quality? Could you post some pics of it here?
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I keep mentioning my shipper worth a try: www.uship.com It's like an eBay for shipping in the way that it works. Go to their website and see what they do - before next time you need something shipped. I've found their prices to be good every time, and the service was dandy, too -- maybe better than most trucking companies. And -- Uship will pick up and deliver from your door and to your door. They can ship to a loading dock -- they can ship to anything. The "bid" form asks you if you're shipping to a dock or a house or what - so the bidders know what type of truck will be needed to do the load.
I'm not knocking the traditional trucking firms -- just trying to let others know that there is a little-known option worth checking.
I will check into this if I need to ship Jon, thanks.
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I spent the last two days chasing the wiring and fitting all the different parts together that I have aquired for this motor. The controls and battery are mounted on the test stand, all the wiring checks out and I have power to the fuel pump and spark when the starter motor is run. She is ready to start as soon as the fuel tank comes in. After spending 2 years aquiring all the parts, I can't wait to hear it run!
(http://www.frsengineering.com/bt2.jpg)
http://www.frsengineering.com/bt2.jpg
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I ordered a Rod and Race P38 tank and had it shipped from WV to MN. I did pick it up at the terminal here in town but shipping was only $290.00 and this was just in December. I had quotes from other companies that were only one state away that were over $1000.00 so it pays to shop around. Mine was shipped via Estes Trucking.
How is that Rod and Race P38 tank? Are you happy with the quality? Could you post some pics of it here?
Here are a few pics of it. I honestly do not know anything about glass but it seems fine to me.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x234/Eyeball32/DSCN5315.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x234/Eyeball32/DSCN5313.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x234/Eyeball32/0104091649a.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x234/Eyeball32/0103091713.jpg)
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Thanks for the pics.
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The GSXR fuel tank I bought on eBay came in today. I hooked everything up, added fuel and rolled the test stand to the door with the exhaust pointed outside. She started right up...proof of life!
http://www.frsengineering.com/suzuki.wmv (http://www.frsengineering.com/suzuki.wmv)
I have ordered a TRE for the motor and now it's time to start looking for a body.
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Randy,
That engine sounds strong ... you even hooked up the radiator ... I especially like the handle bars ... cool ride?
Joe
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Randy,
That engine sounds strong ... you even hooked up the radiator ... I especially like the handle bars ... cool ride?
Joe
Hmmmm, a seat on the test stand! A least I don't have to stand aroung going "vroom, vroom" any more LOL
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Thats kind of where I am at right now, sit on the bike(no motor), close my eyes,with a vision of Bonneville go vroom vroom. :-o
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I think we've all done that Fred :-D :-D
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Hoping to get a little 2 wheel fix this weekend on my VFR :roll:
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So Randy, is that "test stand" in your kitchen?
What is the deal with having the fuel tank, is there a sensor in it that is required to make the ECU run the engine?? I am also planning a small lakester and want to use a GSX-R 1000 motor but I really don't have room for the gas tank.
Dilute my ignorance, Please!
Rex
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Rex, if you use the stock fuel pump, it is in tank... he won't be using that tank in the car I'm sure. You can cut one up for a fuel pump mount, I've done that on the bike instead of making one.
Or as I suggested earlier, use an external pump and a return flow regulator.
There are several things you need to overcome in the car, if you don't have the stock key switch (it has an anti-theft feature not shown in the diagram) you need to put a resistor in one of the lines. I think all this was in a thread a couple of years ago.
How soon will your lakester be ready, point us to you build diary so we don't hijack Randy's... :-D
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So Randy, is that "test stand" in your kitchen?
What is the deal with having the fuel tank, is there a sensor in it that is required to make the ECU run the engine?? I am also planning a small lakester and want to use a GSX-R 1000 motor but I really don't have room for the gas tank.
Dilute my ignorance, Please!
Rex
Rex, the test stand is in my small shop attached to my garage. It's getting pretty full right now, so I'm building a larger one. You can see the new shop thread here: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5407.0.html
I'm using the stock tank just for testing just because it's "plug and play". It's easy to use for any GSXR motor I want to test on the stand. I will be building a seperate fuel tank with fuel pump and regulator as Stainless has suggested for the lakester build. There are just 3 wires going into the pump, 2 for the motor, one for the low fuel indicator. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm assuming a direct connect to an external Bosh or Walbro fuel pump will work just fine...am I right Stainless?
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Only if you first put in larger wires, and get rid of the 5 am fuel pump relay... I would (and we did) use those wires to actuate a 40 amp relay with #10 wire to the Walbro pump... learned the hard way when we ran out of Fuel pressure due to not enough electrons making it down the wires to the pump...
We used the stock pump on the Busa (external 99 model) and the original relay until we ran turbo. Switched to bigger wire, but forgot about that little relay until we got back and started troubleshooting our fuel problem. Couldn't rev the motor past 7000 without going lean. Didn't have that problem 08....
Note, your stock pump is internally regulated and could be used if you stay normally aspirated. It is easier but might as well build for the future when you want to go faster and faster and faster.... :-D
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That's great info Bob, thanks. I will make the wiring plan to add a larger fuel pump relay.
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Stainless,
I am probably not ready to start a build site, my lakester is still mostly drawing velum, sketches and some calculations. Probably won't actually be fabricating much for at least another year or two. I plan to retire in 2010 so that is my target start date. Might get some of the small machine parts that I already have drawings for started but that's about it. I am going to watch Randy's build to see if I can learn a little.
Rex
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Off the cuff idea, here. Years ago I wanted to build a belly tank car, but it didn't happen....however.... during my planning I realized that a solid rear axle (with the wheels wide enough for a belly tank) would probably eat up some of the power from a very small engine.
I think a person could get around it by using the rear axle from a small rear wheel drive car, with the pinion removed (and hole plugged), flipped over, and the back of the axle housing cut out for chain runs. This would allow for a differential, and you could run sealed bearings in the carrier to eliminate oil in the housing. Removing the ring gear would leave room for a sprocket.
The rear end I was looking at was from a Starlet or early Corolla 1200, because the ring gear size was only about 6" on those (so I could get a small enough sprocket to fit). You could also use old MG Midget, early Datsun 1200, etc. I figured it'd make it easer to mount an axle, because the old RWD housings are fully welded and plenty stiff. Brakes are already there, also, so that's one less thing to figure out or buy.
Just an idea....
Good luck with your project!!
JimL
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Nice one Those belly tanks always look good I wonder how hard it would be to build one for the road.
When we were using Axles for chain drive Trikes back in the day we would use Reliant Rialto or Regal diffs they are in three parts and easy to get sealed bearings for, the sprocket bolts to the crown wheel and then just plate in the planet whels and put in grease nipples. i dont know if you ever had reliants out there in the US so this probably isnt that helpfull.
I found this page which may shed some light on what i am getting at.the other concern is I aint sure what kind of power they will handle,they seemed fine for the likes of Z1300s but your gixer will be pushing out alot more power.
http://spaceport1.co.uk/yodaofbo/tech/diff%20ratios/Reliant_axle_info.html
Like the sled in the background.
Good luck Oz
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Great ideas guys, thanks. Keep them coming!
This is why I posted this thread in the idea/design stage. There is enough experience on this forum that we can find and use proven methods in the build :-D
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Where in hell are we going to get a Realto Reliant rear axle? ... I doubt there 2 of them in the US ... Joe
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Where in hell are we going to get a Realto Reliant rear axle? ... I doubt there 2 of them in the US ... Joe
LOL, I'm sure there are plenty of Corolla axles
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Corolla is the most produce model of any car ever ... That should be a bit easier to find then an English 3 wheeler.
Joe
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I've heard of a trick where the VW guys weld the spider housing shut, with a bung added, and fill it with gear oil, then run it till it drops. You could do sorta' the same thing with old Japan axle, but just run some grease in the spider gears and shaft. There won't be a lot of diff action unless a tire is spinning a lot, and the grease will be thrown against the inside of the housing. I don't think you'd need to worry about sealing the axle shafts into the side gears.
JimL
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I Thought getting hold of one of those may be a prolem I could have a look over here if that was the way you wanted to go but shipping would probably cost an arm and a leg. Volvo also do an Axle that we used to use with outboard discs but i cant for the life of me remember the model that it came from I can look into it if you like.
You Could always go for a live axle and just machine bearing carriers but you would probably have to make the A arms to suit "loads more work"
giz a shout if you would like me to have a look about.
Cheers Oz
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I was going to suggest an HD Servi-car rear end.........here is a decent looking one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Servi-Car-Rear-End_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem180325491878QQitemZ180325491878QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Here is a real nice after market one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FRANKENSTEIN-TRIKE-REAR-END-REAREND-4-HARLEY-AXLE-KIT_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem110347465776QQitemZ110347465776QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
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you guys crack me up...hey the sky's gonna fall! how should i over engineer an umbrella?
Kent
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Here's question, do you need a diff for just straight line racing? How about just a solid axle that comes apart for sprocket changes? I was thinking about just a cheap, lightweight axle housing with all the internals removed and the hubs and whatever else scavanged to use where we can. Can you run on the concrete and asphalt at Maxton with a solid rear axle?
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straight axle Randy...no more, no less...
kent
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Just curious? With suspension or without?
Mike
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with a motorcycle motor you will definitely need suspension cuz the shock loads will damage trans gears and rip the output shaft out of the cases
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I like the live axle idea ... keep it simple ... single inboard brake ... the after market trike axle looks good but for $3k it would be fairly easy to fab out at a quarter the cost.
Joe
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How about looking at sprint car or more likely midget rear ends? They're a single shaft from one end to the other and relatively inexpensive. You wouldn't necessarily need the housing.
Pete
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What do the Dwarf/Legend cars run in the back? I know the run MC engines.
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The Jacksonville dwarf cars ran Yamaha motorcycle drive shaft engines with a toyota rear axle ... Joe
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Go to Sumner's build and look at how he is doing his drive. As I remember he is using the diff from a Datsun Z car.
Rex
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He probably has pictures of our rear axle as well, Post em if you got em Sum. I might be able to take some if you would like when I'm in Denver later this month.
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Any pics and descriptions are much appreciated, thanks. Posting them in this thread is no problem :-D
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Go to Sumner's build and look at how he is doing his drive. As I remember he is using the diff from a Datsun Z car.
Rex
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/chain-adj-3.jpg)
A number of pages here about the rear-end build....
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bvillecarindexpage.html
..... At some point I might redo the center section (between the bearings) to a straight axle there with mounts on the ends to go to the half shafts to keep the suspension.
He probably has pictures of our rear axle as well, Post em if you got em Sum. I might be able to take some if you would like when I'm in Denver later this month.
I'll have to look later. I think not. After you let me sit in the car I got so excited that I peed my pants and forgot to take anymore pictures 8-) .
c ya,
Sum
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Great looking rear end there Sumner, but I'm looking to build something quite a bit simpler. Thanks for the link, I'm going to spend some time looking at it.
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straight axle Randy...no more, no less...
kent
Hey, that reminds me of my favorite Tombstone epitaph...
(http://www.roadtripamerica.com/places/tombstone01.jpg)
:-D :-D
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In case anyone does not know where that tombstone is located, it's in "Boot Hill" in Tombstone Arizona, an old silver mining town in southern AZ. Tombstone is more famous as the location of "The Gunfight At The O.K. Corral" between the Earp brothers and the Clantons & McLowrys.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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When we were off road just past Oatman we came across a small cemetary on route66, Mrs H and I found a tombstone that read, "Jimmy Hoffa".
You never know...
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This is as close as Stainless...............
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/temp-pictures/1000-3.jpg)
.................................would let me get to
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/temp-pictures/1000-1.jpg)
..........the rear-end.
He did let me inside..........
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/temp-pictures/1000-2.jpg)
.............and this is one really nice lakester, inside and out,
Sum
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Very nice, he even painted the inside :wink:
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Actually, Marty's kid Nick has a shop called Advance Customs, he did all the paint, including the inside of the canopy.
Remember that study several years back about what colors commercial outfits should paint their bathrooms... Blue was calming, made people linger... Red made people rush... be in a hurry to get out :-o
Now you know... :roll:
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This is as close as Stainless...............would let me get to..........the rear-end.
He did let me inside..........
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/temp-pictures/1000-2.jpg)
.............and this is one really nice lakester, inside and out,
Sum
Thanks for answering one of those 'always wondered' issues about the view from inside a lakester. I gotta believe it looks much different at speed.
Mark
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Yea, the trailer is not in front of you and your eyes are about 20 inches off the ground, catch us at the WoS Mark and we will let you shoehorn yourself in... it's really roomy
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That lakester is really done nice Bob. Do you know how much it weighs? How fast are you going at the first mile?
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Randy, I'm not sure it would qualify us for 130 club, but maybe... I think the fastest quarter was about 214... really good salt that year. We weighed it several years ago, it was about 1500, it has gained weight with age, I'm guessing it would tip the scale at 1700 to 1800.
Best quarter last race was about 204...
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Thanks for the info. We will be building for the mile, so light weight for faster acceleration is the goal. It will be difficult, because I usually build heavier than needed in my motorcycle frames to make up for my engineering ignorance.
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Randy, you will be geared a lot different. The Bockscar will not move itself from a stop, it requires 25 to 30 MPH to pull on its own. It will spin the wheels at will in the first 2 gears... get into 3rd at about 140 MPH, will still spin the wheels if you are not carefull.
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I hear ya, trying for top speed in the mile will be much different gearing than the salt. At least traction shouldn't be an issue. There was a really sleek looking lakester at Maxton last year and I think it was running a 750cc motor. It looked like it was built pretty light, I'm gonna have to see if I can find it in the run logs. I think it was #326
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look like this? RTR's picture... It is a nice car. Was for sale for way less than build cost in the for sale section
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That looks like it except for the color, it may have been different color when I saw it...or that's just my CRS kickin in :-P
To me...half the fun is building a car or bike I could race, I just couldn't bring myself to buy one because I would have to take it apart and put it back together. Of course, if I found one that really floats my boat, I could change my mind.
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I found the listing you were talking about in the sale section, It looks like it's been the same color, did I mention my CRS :-o LOL. That's definitely a high dollar, high tech build. I'm hoping for a lot less than that in the build. Since Joe and I will do all the work and fab ourselves, we should be able to keep the costs down.
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Randy, as promised earlier I took some rear suspension pictures. There is a lot of stuff in there, but I think you can see how we did it.
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Randy, as promised earlier I took some rear suspension pictures. There is a lot of stuff in there, but I think you can see how we did it.
Stainless that is very nice!! Great fabrication :-). I don't think I've seen it before as when I was by the car I think the body work was on back there,
Sum
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Here's a few more, as Sum said, it is hard to see when all the body is on.
We ran a panhard arm on the 4 link for several years and several spins before we changed to the triangulated uppers. when we put in the panhard, it was very short about 18 inches and we were unable to make it parallel to the ground without interfering with the axle. We made too many comprises so the suspension movement caused a little rear steering.
The triangulated bars mount at the same level as the top links, otherwise it would bind.
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is co2 bottle for fire ext.?
franey
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is co2 bottle for fire ext.?
franey
Shifting by air, up and down... :-D
There was a time we had cable shifting, to hard to maintain.
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dooooh. halon for fire? i was thinking air or nitrogen for shifter.
well good luck on project.
franey
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Great pics Bob, thanks. It looks like your axle is a 3 piece set-up, is that correct? Does it come apart easily for a gear change? I believe I see what looks like 2 couplings outboard of the center section with a thru-bolt in each one.
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Yes you are seeing that correctly, it is a 3 piece straight axle, there are 6 pinch bolts, a 1/2 inch key and the thru-bolt is there to ensure the axle is retained. I would like to say gear changes were easy, they are not hard in the shop when the car is already apart, but a little tougher on the salt. The new trailer will make it easier, we put a support under the flat part of the car for jacking and tested it on the salt.
We have used split sprockets in the past, but keeping them aligned was a problem even with precision bolt holes. The sprockets are 1 piece now and we usually make our first gear change at the front.
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Luck has nothing to do with it - hard work and experience results in records:
BONNEVILLE NATIONAL CAR RECORDS
6.A Special Construction Category
Blown Fuel Lakester - /BFL
H Bockscar R. Steele 09/08 215.296
Unblown Fuel Lakester - /FL
H Bockscar R. Steele 08/01 228.039
I Bockscar J. Gowetski 08/95 221.183
J Bockscar J. Gowetski 08/97 204.324
Unblown Gas Lakester - /GL
G Bockscar R. Steele 08/04 211.463
H Bockscar R. Steele 08/02 227.667
I Bockscar J. Gowetsk 08/92 194.340
J Bockscar J. Gowetski 08/96 163.884
DW
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Thanks Bob, that looks like a simple, straightforward set-up and I'm a firm believer in the "KISS" principle :-D Are the shocks gas-charged and act as springs also?
DW, you are so right...the records speak for themselves :cheers:
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Yes the shocks are gas and support the rear of the car.
DW, we feel lucky, the little car has put Johnboy, Marty and Me in the club, all with different engine combos. We are trying to get Marty to drive again, his record was lost, but luckily I found it a couple of years later. We are working to get Kevin to come back racing also. But enough about our junk... Let's get back to Randy on 4....
Comon... throw (or show) me something (sorry, still have Mardi Gras on the brain)
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Comon... throw (or show) me something (sorry, still have Mardi Gras on the brain)
(http://www.frsengineering.com/girl.gif)
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Randy -- where'd you score that nice smiley? Put some tattoos on that woman and you'd have a look-alike to -- unh, never mind, Nancy might read this.
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You mean that cartoon lady with the big Tuckers?
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Randy -- where'd you score that nice smiley? Put some tattoos on that woman and you'd have a look-alike to -- unh, never mind, Nancy might read this.
I just grabbed it from a bike forum that has quite a selection of, how shall I say...uh, :wink: different emoticons. You're welcome to use it :-D