Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: John (Maryland) on November 29, 2008, 10:48:51 AM
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Starting out from the barn.
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Keep us apprised, thanks.
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Looks Good, keep the pics coming.
I wish my body was as ready to start on as yours is... We just got the front stub and suspension in, the rear end is ordered as is the new material for the new frame,, The 53 frame is to thin, I know the cage and bracing will help, but I am going with new frame..
Love to see what you are doing with your frame and cage setup...
Please keep the info and pics coming..
Charles
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....The project, of course, is more extensive than originally envisioned ....
John, everyone with an LSR project has said that... welcome to the fray
Keep us informed, and keep taking pictures
See ya on the salt 8-)
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John,, sounds like you have a good plan... I am a few weeks behind you on the body work.. Hope to see more pics of the chassis and cage build up.
I am going to run E/CGALT (If I keep my current motor) then D/CGALT with new motor (when stock market returns my losses !!! hopefully by spring 2010).
What motor /trans are you thinking about ?
Charles
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Charles, wishful thinking on the stock market rebound by 2010!!!
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The broader based markets come back/rebound before the economy as a whole does,,, so we all better hope the market is back by early 2010 !!!!
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John, Nice pics.
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John,
I live in NC, just a few miles from the Heart of Nascar Nation,,,, if you need any 4 speed stuff I can many times get good stuff.
Last year I picked up a few Tex Racing Super T10's with all the goodies...
Let me know if I can help
Charles
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Attached are a few more pictures.
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John,
On your cage, the main down legs for the main hoop/loop,, where will it attach ? The Frame or the Frame "out riggers" ? Can you take picks of how it and the front or halo bars attach and where ?
Hope you understand my question...
In the pics, it looks like your frame is 10 to 12 inches inboard of the door sill or rockers.. if that is the case, it would seem your main hoops would have to attach outside the main frame rail to an out rigger, kinda like the stock floor mounts on our rigger ?
MORE PICS PLEASE.... LOOKS GOOD.... KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
Charles
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More pictures.
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John, looking good.. Like to see that movable motor mount fixture and main hoop attachment points,
Charles
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John,
What kind of rear frame rails did you use? How did you attach what looks like 2x4 rear rails to the stock frame rails ? Extra brace or plates ? My 53 stock frame is very thin metal (.078 vs newer .120 wall tubing)
Charles
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John, that is a great plan,, have fun and enjoy the process. The design, the build, the re-do's, then the actual running... I agree I enjoyed the entire process with the Vicky and had lots of help, both hired professionals, friends and volunteers.. But once we ran for and got a few records last year, the bug had bit me hard and I wanted records on the "SALT",, knowing that the Vicky met the objective it was designed for and that that body style would not handle well or have the slick areo needed foe 212 mph + at Bonneville, the search was on and now I / we are in the midst of the Studebaker build,,, Oh my but record fever hit me with the new Vicky motor and yesterday on the second pass on the new motor it had a problem,,, I am hoping it will not cost much and didn't tear up to much inside her,,,, a big repair bill will set the Stude build back again....
Keep up the good work and keep us all posted,,,,
Thanks for sharing,
Charles
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The measuring stick for this car is not so much seeking a record but overall entertainment value, gathering with friends, and versatility. The car has several purposes, e.g., racing, tools, working in the garage, bench racing, etc. What I am doing is not what is necessarily needed for Bonneville.
Safety is VERY high on the list especially because our younger daughter thinks she wants to drive it.
Ultimately if the car performs, then we might see how fast it will really go - we are only in the early stages and have already made concept adjustments. Jeff Jacobs, an LSR friend commented about enjoying the car for today not always about tomorrow. These are good words - the construction has been great even though I am over budget on everything I have touched on this car. New racers take close note, at least 2X is the commerce watchword.
Warmest regards.
John.
John, there ya go again, working yourself into the salt trap most of us have been caught in... :roll:
The first year Hooley came out with his Stude, he said they just wanted to make a run going 200.... then the hook was set....
Remember if you are not over budget by a 0 you are still within Bonneville specs....
Keep posting pics,
Be safe, have fun, go fast
See ya on the salt 8-)
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A few more pictures showing the roll cage installation and engine placement.
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Great progress and keep showing the pics. The more we share the better we can all do!
I do have a question though. You said you want to run gas coupe class, and the rear frame is in the same location for that. But if it does not have the same shape (yours is taller over the rearend) could you be in for trouble? Just curious as you may want to get clarification from the rules guys.
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John, I meant the frame not the body. I see in the general discussion section you asked for clarification on the frame question. Like I said, check with the rules committee chair person for gas coupe. Always best to get direct answer before you get too far along. Just trying to help. If you really do need a full factory frame, you could substitute a later year frame which is thicker.
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John, forget the gas class and finish the stude to run in the altered class, keep working.
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John,,,
I may can use the triangle body/frame mounts ??
I agree,,, the car looks great,,, well thought out,,, just run Altered and your frame mods are OK...
Keep up the good work and keep me posted,,, Can't wait to meet you and see the car in the wind tunnel..
Charles
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Im going to run altered with my 54 so I can have room to change the things
I feel that need upgrades
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John, did the hood and other glass parts come from "The Glass Shop" ?
Looks like good glass from here ??
Charles
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John, Class Glass makes a long bubble scoop for your hood.
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A couple of pictures.
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John,
If you did not use those triangle body mounts,,, I think I may can use them??
Charles
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Engine for Vicky ... all fine,,, we are going to make all new headers.. the ones on her now have the look I wanted , but dont flow well for the new bigger motor,,, my motor guy is upset that I used them,, convinced they are robbing tons of HP and throttle response,,, so I guess the heck with cool looks, we will design a set of 4 into 1 collector headers, with option for removable muffler/turnouts for street use etc...
The engine for the Stude is resting well on the engine stand and waiting for it's new home... (it is the "E" motor from the Vicky)
Hope to start seeing some progress re-start on Stude this weekend,,,
Charles
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Are you going to delete the drip rail ? Apparently this needs to be done an inch or two at a time; a couple of old-timers told me they did it in the '60's, all at once, and the roof warped like a potato chip.
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ralt12
THANKS for the info. I did not know the drip rail could be a problem. I plan to leave them stock initially as a reference point for the planned wind tunnel test.
John.
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If you take a look at the inside of the drip rail, you'll see that the roof itself is a stamping, and that was spot-welded to the perimeter structure & windshield frame. Sometimes it's a little spooky to see how these things were made. Some of the factory welds on my car are things I'd be reluctant to claim as my own (I'm a beginner welder...).
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Interesting. I will take a look when I go to the shop. Thanks.
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John,, what type of motor mounts or motor plates are you going to use ? Forgive me if you have told us before.
Charles
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A few more pictures. The auto trans is just for setting up the driveline geometry.
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John,
Great progress shes shaping up nicely!
Jerry
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John,
May I ask a silly question,,, with as much skill and talent as you and your help have, how come you did not build a complete new frame vs bracing up the weak stock frame ?
Hmm, maybe for class rules ?
Keep up the good work and the pics, I hope to get back on track with my 53, we are doing a total new frame, not using any stock chassis parts.
Charles
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John,, wow that is a whole lot of 4 link adjustment out back !! Nice build,,, I sure hope my 53 chassis comes out as nice... I have not decided on the containment seat set up of the funny car cage adaptation to the 12 pt cage?
Keep up the good work and the pics.
FYI.... I would go with a stout SBC to start with.
I am starting out with my Radical little 255 SBC "E" class motor....just over 500HP,,, but my engine guy feels he found another 70/80 HP with header design and some intake work.
Tex Racing T10 (close ratio "X" gear set)
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If you want a power intake for a "small" SBC Chevy, this works very well with a 780-850cfm, annular booster 4150.
The rear adjustment allows for getting the driveshaft at the correct angle for various ride heights viz. tire diameters all of which at this point are not set.
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John, who makes that cool intake? I have Brodix 18 degree spreadport heads (with some custom milled angle)
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John, my 255 has been dyno'd last year... I ran it in my Vicky in June, Sep and Oct last year at Maxton,
6 runs, 5 records in 3 classes,, not bad for my first attempt they say... The motor never saw it's full potential due to poor areo on the Vicky, poor gear selection and me using a 3 speed auto,,,
That motor will do much better with a 4 speed and my new Quick Change Rear..
I shifted from 2nd to High at 8200 rp, and it dropped back to just under 5000 on the shift and pulled good but got to the finish line at only 6500.... By using 4 closer spaced trans gears and more gear in the rear, I know it will run better,,, add to that the Stude should have much better areo and handeling..
Oh yeah,,, 255 cubic inches made 502 HP (1.97 HP per cube) and she turns up GREAT... makes all her power from 5,000 to 8500
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Hello.
Does anyone know the front spindle to first spark plug distance on a 53 Studebaker V8. My car did not come with a Stude engine and that value is needed to determine engine setback percentage.
TNXs.
John.
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John --
I believe the engine set-back percentages (SCTA) for Gas Coupe and Altered are based on the engine used and the wheelbase. The stock engine doesn't figure into the equation.
Stan
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John --
I've reread most of your comments on this thread and have a few cautions for you, if I may.
Now is the time to decide what category to run in. In my opinion, you'd have to almost completely rebuild the car to switch from Gas to Altered. Everything moves and it would be a lot of work. I'm not a coupe guy, but I'm not sure your rear-end set-up would work in Gas (or Altered either). I thought the tire radius thing was for the outside body panels in Gas. I don't know -- but I think you should find out. Same goes for the drip rails. We're talking Bonneville here -- they're much more concerned that the vehicle fits class. You can't run up on open records and change categories to others that are open. and finally, another caution -- at Bonneville if you are entered in a class, no matter how fast or slow you think you will run, your vehicle must meet the speed requirements for the class. That include fire bottles, tires, parachutes and driving suits.
Perhaps you got all of the above covered -- but somewhere back there you were mentioning the chassis and said to the effect you couldn't go back now. Well, I don't want you to get in that situation again.
Only trying to help,
regards,
Stan Back
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John, everything is looking good my friend... Thanks for the offer to bring my Glass front end down to Maxton... It will not be ready till the week after Maxton and Frank has worked a deal to get it shipped door to door for $250.
I was noticing that huge round tube X-Brace in the floor area. Looks real strong,, but unless it is an optical trick on my eyes,, where is the driveshaft going to go without the possibility of hitting the X brace?
Could be the picture tricking my eyes ??
Charles
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John,,, looking good... I can't wait to see this cool Stude run..
Keep the biuld progress and pics coming,
Charles
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John,
Things are looking great! One question though, Do the front down tubes to the frame have any benefit being behind the suspension? I have noticed many chassis cars and cages run the bar to a point in front of the crossmember. I assume yours are for the engine plate to mount to dur to your engine setback?
Thanks
Jerry
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John
I see! I went out and studied the frame on my 54 and see that point looks like a good area to add strength
Thanks
Jerry
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John,
The frame I am using is a rust -free 57 Silver Hawk frame which I am told is better yet. The tips and advice from your build is a lot of help! I find that the chassis your building is a lot like what I had already had in my head! thanks for the advice
Jerry
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So we can see what the last posts were about, here is a '53 frame--
(http://nelson-motorsports.com/frame.jpg)
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Heres my 57 Hawk frame
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John,
My intent is to do much the same as you a versitile car that can be street driven somewhat , be legal for Bonneville,Maxton or the Dragstrip, I essentially want some 200 mph time slips in LSR and then it will se some cruise nite action plans are for a LSX type engine , turbocharged . safe and fast!
Jerry
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John,
I like the removable dash idea, thats how I built my oldest sons Mustang. Ill be using a modifed form of a 56 Hawk dash with the engine turned overlay. My 1st 54 that I had was a modifed shell {too crusty} and was set up for mid engine, but anyways the guy had done some sweet fab work on it which included an idea I may use on mine. There was a piece of roll bar tube welded at the highest point between the upper door hinges,it seemed to really stabilize the structure, unfortunately I forgot to snap a pic of it in place!
Jerry
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John,
I need a bit of tech help,,,, feel free to answer here, or send me an email..
How far off the ground will the rear of your frame be ? (the main frame rail just ahead of the 4 link attachment points? also the main frme rail height off the ground in the door sill/rocker area?)
I am trying to get an idea of how far my rear frame kick up needs to be..
I was thinking I need to be as little as 4" to as much as 5" off the ground (bottom edge of main frame rails to the ground) ???
Charles
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John, Thanks..
I was doing some figuring and felt 4 inchs was just a bit low and 5 inchs was the "target"... My 4 link is about like yours,, It is a AME "big tube" kit and has enough adjustments to use 5 inch as our baseline chassis to ground clearance.
Keep up the good work and thanks for all your help.
Charles
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John, how far do you plan to set the engine back? Are you using the stock firewall?
I plan on using an all new firewall (smooth) .103 thick sheet Metal... rules say min firewall thickness is .090 so we found some that spec's out right at .103... kinda heavy but should do well for fire and our small blast !!!
Charles
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I've just started to follow this thread........interesting stuff and lots of good ideas and fab work. It would have be benifical to have it running when I was putting my car together. Keep the posts going and keep up the good work everyone.
Peter
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Peter.
Hello.
I saw you make a run last fall at Maxton; a very nice car! Quite a feat going that fast and driving from Canada. I used to live outside Buffalo and have had many good times in Canada.
R.
John.
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John, you stated that you didn't want your car to be heavy in the nose. Joe Timney told me when I was building my car to have about 51% of the cars weight on the front wheels, works realy good for me.
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Thanks for the compliment and .....very nice tube work! But...you are going to have to be a contortionist when Keith puts you through your exit excercise. It will be like exiting a Nascar race car! Hope you are young and athletic!
Peter
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Peter, I agree,,, John's car chassis, cage and suspension are very nice.... That X Brace in the door looks lighty small to get in and out of (well at least for me as I am 6ft tall and 375lbs,,) I am drawing up several "swing out" door bar designs for my Stude.... I will side bars to Tech over 175 even with a good cage and door sill/rocker bars and full door net,, I need some door bars so, swing out is my only real option...
John, keep up the good work..
Peter are you coming back down in June ?
Charles
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Hey Charles,
I won't be back until September. June in NC is too hot for me!
Peter
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John,
Looks good! It looks like entry/exit should be do-able with relative ease. Are you doing a funny-car style cage around the drivers seat? Is that close to your final seat position?
Talk to you later,
Jerry
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Another picture.
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great project!!,cant wait to get at mine,your pics have inspired me to get back to work on my 37 coupe project
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Randy.
Are you building for LSR or for the street?
John.
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Another photo on the chassis table.
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John,,, may I ask you what the width is between the frame rails at the top of the kick up?
(inside frame rail to inside frame rail, at or near the highhest point about where you will mount the crossmember for upper shock mounts)
also the length from one of the lower 4 link holes (where the rod end bolts to) to the centerline of the axle tube ? (that should be very close to 27" if I did my math correctly)
Thanks
Charles
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Photo of fabricated rear housing.
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John, seat cushion (sp) can't be thicker than 1".
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GH. Thanks for info. I'm leaning toward a full cushion seat; some seats have a lumbar insert. R. John.
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John,
Another thing to look at while positioning the seat. Put on the helmet that you are going to wear. That is the limiting factor on your field of view, both of the inside [guages and controls] and the track in front. Everything looks good and handy until you put on the helmet and are strapped to the seat with limited movement and the starter pulls you down until your chin touchs your chest and suddenly you can't see over the dash like a 16 year old on his driving test. Something to think about when picking a helmet.
Doug
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John,
That axle housing is a work of art! your chassis guy is one of the better Ive seen. Hes quite the welder!
Jerry
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Buickguy3
I read your email and then sat in the car, I see your point, interesting. TNXs.
John.
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More photos.
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A couple of photos.
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The front end parts arrived.
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John,, man I hate that your front end stuff was not as you expected... I am sure guys will get it right.
I used a kit as well and thankfully I had the opposite,,, all was new stuff, down to the nuts, bolts, washers etc.. all bagged and tagged... It took me and Joe less than 90 minutes to unpack and assemble the mock up front stub...(1/2 that time was cutting a drilling the supports to get the ride height correct)
Charles
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Does anyone have information on the weight of a stock 53 Stude coupe and the front and rear weight percentages?
TNXs.
John.
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John, I do not know the front to back weight ratio's,,, but my guess would be 52 to 53 % on the front.
Here are the weights for a 53 Coupe
Champion Inline 6 Coupe 2,760
Commander V8 Coupe 3,180 (bigger motor and heavier frame etc,,, same body)
Both the Inline 6 and V8 coupes had the same 120.5" wheelbase..
Hope that helps
Charles
I estimate my 53 Stude in Race trim to weigh 3500 to 3600 (without me) For Maxton, Texas and Loring, I do not see the need to increase the weight,,, I have been told for Bonneville that I need provisions to add and balance more weight...
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Big TNXs Charles.
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Just being picky, but I think back in those days the "6" would have been an inline rather than a "v".
Pete
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PJ,,, yes it was an inline 6,,,, not a V6... There I go multi tasking...
Hope you will be on the chat tonight ???
Charles
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We are going to attempt digitizing the 53 roll bar so it can be easily produced in any MS or CM
tube diameters or thicknesses.
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In the "Nobody asked the question" category, I stuck my '53 on the scales today. Only things missing are paint, rear seat and instruments, everything else is on the car. So with a Morrison-chassis car and LS power, it comes in at 2695 (!). That's a lot lighter than I thought it would be. 45.3% rear, left to right within 10 lbs. No spare, and no fooling with corner weights yet.
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My 53 has a wet weight of 3400lbs! That's with fuel, no rear seat and minimal upholstery.
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Thanks for info.
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Peter,, Thanks...
John, If Peters car is 3,400 then my target of 3,500 to 3,600 is right on for mine,,,, based on the amount of tubing in your car etc...even with the lighter factory frame,,, I have a feeling you are going to come in right around my target estimates as well.. ?
Charles
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Mine weighs in at 4500 lbs, ready to run, including me at 179. Food for thought. Good luck all, keep working.
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I just checked with Hooley and the #974 weighs about 5400 pounds. As I recall it weighed about 2900 pounds before we started adding ballast. I think it went about 210 MPH at 2900 pounds but it took the 2500 pounds of ballast to go 252 MPH. Remember weight is your friend.
John
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That's right, John, weight is your friend unless it wrapped around your belly...hahahaha
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Gary
At 179 lbs I don't think you have to worry too much about spare tires.
Any idea when you are coming up to dyno the Buick?
Ron
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Thanks for all the information on weight; very helpful!!
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Ron, I think it's the weekend after the 4th. We're out in Colorado sight seeing now, kinda lost track of race stuff. I do know my driving suit got back from Stroud.
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GH,
Did they have to re-size it after a Winter of bench racing? :-) I noticed that mine shrunk a little since the Winter's" Bud Engineering" sessions. I may have to get out of the shop and do a little road work before August.
Doug
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John, I have either forgot your answer ot I have forgot to ask..
Are you using a funny car cage within the main structure of the roll cage ?
If so what kind of seat are you going to use >
If not are you going to use a containment type seat (head restraint built in or add on)
Any pics of thr above would be nice,
Are you coming to Maxton next weekend ?
Charles
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John --
It looks to me that you've got about 10" (just up) of rear end travel. Planning for the Baja 500, too?
Stan Back
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hmm
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Just looking at the frame clearance above the rear end. Shocks could be shorter or mounted to allow a straighter frame rail and a flatter floor pan. More aero -- less work, too.
Your comments about the frame thickness between a 53 and later are only an opinion, too. There is a difference -- but it's not double. That would seem to be your opinion, rather than research.
Stan Back
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Going on memory here, I think I have about 4" clearance between the rear axle housing and the frame rail, I use Art Morrison coil over shocks, they are adjusted pretty far down so the car sits low.
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Measuring his 1953 C body V8 frame, a friend found .085, which is consistent with a lightly rusted 13 gauge (.089). Frames were generally thicker for Canadian and export cars, usually 11 gauge. The 6-cylinder cars were thought to have 14 gauge frames.
Besides six and V8 differences, the C/K models had increases in the frame thicknesses at a few intervals during their production years of 1953-1964.
Here are the specs from the '59-'64 Shop Manual... if anyone wants to copy them.
Year Body Frame Thickness
59S W, F .0747"-14GA
59V W, F .0897"-13GA
59S-59V D .097"-13GA
59S-59V J .1196"-11GA
59S-59V Y .1196"-11GA
59S-59V C* .0897"-13GA
60S W, F .0747"-14GA
60V W, F .0897"-13GA
60S-60V D,P .0897"-13GA
60S-60V J, L .1196"-11GA
60S-60V Y .1196"-11GA
60V C* .0897"-13GA
61S W, F .0747"-14GA
61V W, F .0897"-13GA
61S-61V D,P .0897"-13GA
61S-61V J, L .1196"-11GA
61S-61V Y .1196"-11GA
61V C* .0897"-13GA
62S F .0747"-14GA
62S-P, 62V-F P .0897"-13GA
62S-62V K, J, Y, .1196"-11GA
Taxi-Police .1196"-11GA
63S .0747"-14GA
63S-P, 63V-P .1196"-11GA
63S-63V K,J,Y,L .1196"-11GA
Taxi-Police .1196"-11GA
63V F .0897"-13GA
64S F .0747"-14GA
64S-64V P .1196"-11GA
64S-64V K,J,Y,L .1196"-11GA
Taxi-Police .1196"-11GA
64V F .0897"-13GA
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It's my understanding that the 53's started with all the same gauge. The prototypes allegedly were all 6-cylinders, but when the production cars were on the line, they had great problems with body alignment on the V-8 cars because of the additional weight. They kept on producing them, because of demand, and later made a running change to a heavier gauge for all. When, I don't know, but supposedly all the 54's were with the heavier gauge.
Stan Back
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My car is a 1953 Champion 6 cyl. it for sure has the thin 14ga frame... no doubt here, not opinion, not research, just a simple fact confirmed by a micrometer on the actual frame.
Charles
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Just get rid of those old thin flimsy stock frames and build your own frame from scratch. I used 2" x 4" x 1/4" wall rectangle tubing and filled the last 5' of both frame rails with 1/4" steel plates. Good luck and have fun building.
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Charles.
Nice work with your in-car camera at Maxton.
John.
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John,,,, where are you ? you dropped off the map man?
Hope all is well.
Charles
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I am relatively new to land speed and take safety very seriously. I have found the forum to be essential–excellent on many many fronts. The technical information has been most helpful and highly appreciated to my little build.
Stan’s comments, however, were most unhelpful. Stan not only didn’t know what he was talking about by grossly miscalculating and misunderstanding the rear suspension, but he mocked the build. People's lives are at stake in land speed racing.
I have no desire to participate in sneering posts or leaving erronous posts standing without a response, hence, I am rolling around what to post.
Recently several folks on the forum involved themselves in very unhelpful arguments to the high detriment of the sport. I do not want any part of sustained arguing or foolishness about anyone's vehicle nor am I going down the road of cynical emails. Land speed vehicles come to life by a lot of sweat and the little grey cells, not sneering.
LSR is a tremendous sport.
John.
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John, I for one have enjoyed you build post and your pictures. I am sorry that a few have decided to reply with sarcasm and tart remarks. I too can see how this can be upsetting... We all work hard to bring our projects to completion. I hope your project is moving forward and hope to see you and the Stude soon.
Continued success with the build,
Your friend,
Charles
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Okay -- you're all upset. Let me check back about what I said and what you said and see if we can work this out. Oh, darn, you've deleted some of your posts. I guess you only wanted positive feedback, any way.
Stan Back
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I am relatively new to land speed and take safety very seriously. I have found the forum to be essential–excellent on many many fronts. The technical information has been most helpful and highly appreciated to my little build.
Stan’s comments, however, were most unhelpful. Stan not only didn’t know what he was talking about by grossly miscalculating and misunderstanding the rear suspension, but he mocked the build. People's lives are at stake in land speed racing.
I have no desire to participate in sneering posts or leaving erronous posts standing without a response, hence, I am rolling around what to post.
Recently several folks on the forum involved themselves in very unhelpful arguments to the high detriment of the sport. I do not want any part of sustained arguing or foolishness about anyone's vehicle nor am I going down the road of cynical emails. Land speed vehicles come to life by a lot of sweat and the little grey cells, not sneering.
LSR is a tremendous sport.
John.
Tried to check pictures after sticking up a bit for Stan but found they were deleted.
JL222
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We removed the body, it came off very easy with just four people lifting. Steve Kramer did an excellent job on the removing setup. We are presently working the front-end and the motor plates.
The A-arms purchased not only have aluminium cross-members, not a starter for this car, but the ball-joint angle is incorrect by 4 degrees. Everything should work out fine but this entire assembly has really escalated time and costs.
Stan - You could not see the actual distance between the frame and the 4-link brace as that photo was at an oblique angle. The actual measurement is 6-ins. not 10-ins. That entire space is needed for installation of the torsion-bar assembly. Note too, the car will use an X-Member to restrict athwart motion of rear-housing.
Any comments are welcome, but please know this vehicle is different. The build features are not necessarily best for LSR alone, many areas are overbuilt. Regarding safety, hopefully she is over the top - much at the expense of LSR performance.
The vehicle is being specifically built for Maxton and Loring and ultimately, if it runs, Bonneville. The plans are to severely test the setup by drag racing (More for fun that needed).
R.
John.
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Additional photos fabricating the motor plates and body mount tabs.
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If you ever run BV, you'll be glad you made the body removable. Will surely help cleaning the nooks and crannies.
Stan
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I would guess John was "offended by the BaJa remark---John keep building---just keep reading the entire rule book----remember there are a lot of fairly sucessful LSR cars that have no suspension...
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John,, great new pics --- Thanks very much.
I see in the pic where there is a tab welded in the door frame ("B" Pillar area) that is bolted to the main hoop of the roll cage? What are your thoughts there ? Is that for body rigidity? I like it and was wondering the main purpose. Cool motor plates as well.. Sorry you got a bad deal on your front suspension.. hang in there ... over time, head aches and over budget are all normal,,, I have had all these issues crop up on the last few hotrods and two race cars we built... but in the end, the pride and sense of accomplishment will make all the tough times worthwhile....
The proudest car moment I thought I had was when my Roadster made the cover and feature article in a Magazine,, but it was not.... My proudest car moment was actually a proud "day" it was last year when the Vicky made her first appearance at Maxton, just seeing all the LSR folks give me the thumbs up when I drove her through the pits for tech inspection, passing tech and hanging out with the fine LSR community was very nice. then the next day I made my first ever license pass and shakedown run (second gear pass) the car ran well and felt stable,,, so on my second run I decided to give her a bit more throttle and use third gear, I set the new record by over 10mph... wow and everything stayed together.... the rest is history,, we are now on the second LSR build with the Stude and hoping to have as much fun (and a record or two as well)...
So keep the faith, keep the build going, don't let the tough times and setbacks derail your goals,,, stick to it,, hope to see you and the Stude soon.
Charles
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Charles.
The tabs attach the body to the framing. There are 5 tabs around the each door perimeter and two tabs will be added to the back deck. Once those tabs are removed the body can easily be lifted off. The shape of the Stude and its low stance allows for a forward-off lift without having to raise the body too high, w/i arms reach - so far, so good, a lot better than expected. Despite the body disassembly, no across bracing, and with the supports added to the rear fender shelves, the body is quite rigid - but we are being very careful.
Steve plans ahead, we are building for "easy" engine removal. Notice the motor plate shelves allow the motor to sit in place w/o motor plate bolts to the engine. The front motor plate has been shaped, the mid will be cut to match the mid-plate hoop-tubing. The photos show the tabs for the mid-plate.
A lot of folks are enjoying your successes. You're a good man! I enjoy your posts, photos, and watching your build mature - nice work!
Sparky - The rear suspension is being designed for simple solid fixtures as an option to totally lock-in the rear housing, i.e., an adjustable locked-in ride height maybe using oval track jackers. The 4-link was deliberately selected, may not be best for other vehicles, for high tractive effort once rolling in 1st gear and for up shifted gear acceleration as the car transitions into rear spoiler downforce (TBD). The 4-link has been installed for Maxton and Loring, no benefit seen for Bonneville other than it is totally adjustable, i.e., optimum pinion angle at speed and ride height.
John.
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Stan.
Do many folks use WD 40 or some protective coating before going on the salt?
R.
John.
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I use Salt-X on the truck and the trailer, but haven't tried any sort of protection on the race bike. The Salt-X does work well, though -- makes it much easier to wash off the accumulation of salt. Take a hose with you (and maybe a "key, for the locking spigots) so you can wash down at the motel every other night. I'm thinking of taking our power washer with us, even though there are some that say a power washer will cram salt into little crevices where otherwise it might not get stuck. I paid about $2 grand two weeks ago for a new transfer case for my pickup -- because salt had corroded the case (where a sprayer would have easily washed it) so bad that holes developed and the fluid leaked out. Ouch! I'm going to rinse the truck and trailer more carefully from now on.
Back to your question -- I've heard many folks say that they spray WD-40 on the race vehicle before making runs. Let's see what others have to say about it.
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John, I think that most Salt racers that run no suspension are afraid of a change of the angle of attack at speed. By eliminating it, just eliminates something else to worry about; that not so say with research and instrumentation suspension is not a better way to go---it just seems that over 220 even bricks can find a way to fly.
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John, I think that most Salt racers that run no suspension are afraid of a change of the angle of attack at speed. By eliminating it, just eliminates something else to worry about; that not so say with research and instrumentation suspension is not a better way to go---it just seems that over 220 even bricks can find a way to fly.
Is wheel spin what you want? No suspension or stiff suspension will cause wheel spin especially with cars without wings or much downforce, at speed. Your better off having it. :cheers:
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your are right=== I was just trying to point out that airspeed causes a lot of bodies to lift and change their relationsip to the ground---weight or aero changes are the only things that are going to stop that
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Thanks for the info. There is a lot to learn about LSR - aero, traction, suspension, salt ...
John.
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John
Hi there from a fellow annapolitan. Neat build! What happened to the rest of the posts? I was only able to see the car in the final three pages. I have bin to Maxton twice this year and I am planning on making the last two meets. No race car just learning, having fun, and volunteering. Are you planing a trip?
Steve
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Steve.
I live Arnold. Where in Annapolis do you live?
There are 5 of us in the area building/running LSR vehicles. If you ever want to see the construction let me know, the car is not far away in Pasadena. I hope to set up an ordered photo bucket of the build, just need to get to it.
John.
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John
I grew up in Cape St Clair and currently reside in Severna park. HECK YEA I want to see the car! I will PM you with a phone #. If you need a hand or any thing I wold be happy to help. I have a pretty good general knowledge/skills and can wield a broom with the best of them.
Steve
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Steve. Nice talking today, we will have to get together.
John
Photos of motor mount.
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John, lookin good !!!
How far back is the #1 spark plug from the centerline of the front spindle ?
( code for how far did you set the engine back)
Thanks
Charles
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Charles.
I hope you had a good cruise!
The engine block in not in the car but it looks like about 8 inches rearward from the spindle center to #1 or about 7%.
We made good progress today with installing the X-tracking locator, rear suspension work, and a lot of tube welding. I will try to get some pictures.
R.
John.
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John,, the cruise was GREAT,,,, thanks for asking,,, Glad to hear and see your progress. I too did about a 7 to 8 % setback,,, yours just looks further back in the photo's. I decided against motor plates,, using solid mounts in stock side mount location, plus solid mid mounts, solid trans mount and may use solid front mounts (like 1955 style)...
Glad your front suspension gremlins are being worked out...
Talk soon.
Charles
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Solid mounts are great for LSR and will save expense, also ease engine removal (Water pump can be connected directly to the engine - SBC). Motor plates do not really benefit LSR.
We are getting closer to the funny car cage - couple of weeks hopefully.
R.
John.
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Some more photos of the rear suspension.
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John,,, Looking good my friend..
Hey what kind of cool lateral support are you using on rear suspension? Looks like a "Z" Bar ? or Diagonal Link bar ? or combination of the two ? Can I get a better pic of that cool set up and possibly your thoughts on that vs a panard or watts set up ?
Man,,, Keep up the build... great inspiration for me...
Charles
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Charles.
I'm using a X-Style Track Locater from Chris Altson's Chassisworks. I do not think the X member assembly is necessary for LSR.
The photos also shows the Anti-Roll Bar (torsion bar) fixture being installed.
R.
John.
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John,,, that is some cool stuff...
I had inquired about a similar setup,,, but was told that with more than 2" to 3" of rear suspension travel the lateral locaters "could possibly" work against themself and "may" bind up..
I have no idea.... so "for now" I am taking the simple old reliable way and using a long 32"-33" Panard bar.... with that length and Arc... it should limit max lateral movement to under 1/16th " at max suspension travel,,, and should never get to max travel...
Your setup looks much more hi tech.... Thanks again for sharring.
Charles
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Steve.
I live Arnold. Where in Annapolis do you live?
There are 5 of us in the area building/running LSR vehicles. If you ever want to see the construction let me know, the car is not far away in Pasadena. I hope to set up an ordered photo bucket of the build, just need to get to it.
John.
Or more - We are just west of Dulles Airport in Ashburn. Motorcycles - LOTS in the area - Todd & Debbie Dross are just south of us in Fredricksburg, Ali (forget his last name) is in Vienna, Couple of riders out in Winchester etc... :)
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Rachael Johnson and Shane Bates are in Warrenton
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Sounds like enough racers in the area for a fall picnic or a Christmas party after the season ends.
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Count me in if anyone has a picnic. Are you going to Maxton this fall? R. John.
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We will be there. Had an issue on the dyno a couple of weeks ago. Working on the fix this weekend.
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Are your racing in Sept.; what class and vehicle?
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Right now we will be running a G/MMP - I am hoping to add a bike to the garage soon.
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The funny car cage is in for finish welding.
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Progress looks good John.
Pete
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I've been wondering where you were at on the Stude project, keep at it.
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Garry.
We have been working but the FC cage and front end went slow and another car came into the shop for work. We are progressing; car is coming along well; Steve Kramer did a beautiful job on the cage (a couple more pictures will follow showing all piping; we are trying to get to Maxton by Spring.
R.
John.
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John,
Glad to see some more progress... The FC Cage looks good.
Well the next two evenings we are doing pre race inspection and then loading the Vicky up for Maxton this weekend... You coming down ?
Charles
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Charles.
We'll see you there.
R.
John.
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Another view of the FC cage.
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John, It was a pleasure meeting you and having some time to chat this weekend.
Now we both have to get busy and finish our Stude's....
Let's both plan on being 100% Ready for April,,,, I know we can do it,,,, I will save you a pit next to me !!!!
Take care and keep posting your build progress.
Charles
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Charles.
Hello. It was also a pleasure meeting up with Venable's Racing!
We got home about 12:30.
I like the idea of getting those old girls finished by April - Studebaker Row. We'll have to get GH and some of the others to Maxton for a Stude gathering of the minds(??).
You are far ahead of me, but April is a great target.
I saw the Vicky C motor go though, sounded great!
R.
John.
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John,
Yeah that last run "into the wind" was fun,, 151.4xxxx mph... I hope my in car camera worked,,, I have not un packed yet...
Talk soon.
Charles
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Every component from Slick Street Stuff had to be modified at considerable cost and time but is now strong, installed, and aligned. The brakes are Strange and the rotor fixtures had to be custom ordered.
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John,, looking good... let's thrash and make it to Maxton in April.....
Charles
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Hi John
I am the guy from Severna Park. We talked on the phone in August and I couldn't get over there to see the drag car. I can't believe we didn't meet in Maxton. We might have seen each other. I was on the start line crew strapping people in to race cars. Tall, kind of goofy looking, in shorts most of the day. I really would like to meet up (before April) and check out your cars. I am working out of town the next two weeks. I will PM and hopefully we will catch up.
BTW did you go to the Jalopy show at the armory yesterday?
The Stude looks fantastic
Steve
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Steve.
Greetings and hello.
I was in a push car and saw you on the starting line buckling-up the drivers. Give me a call upon your return from travel. We have quite a bit of activity in the immediate area working on five LSR vehicles.
I did not go to the armory.
R.
John.
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A couple more pictures.
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John, man I sure wish our places where closer to each other,,,, NICE Job,,, we could learn and help each other...
We each have a few neat and unique things that keep our cars from looking the same or like cookie cutter templates.
Man keep up the good work,,, we both need to pit and stage together for our inaugural runs in April at Maxton...
keep thrashing my friend,,, as we are !!!!
Charles
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Charles.
We are working away toward Maxton in April but there is obviously a lot yet to do. The passenger bars are made but not installed to ease floor installation.
Your car is coming along great!
R.
John.
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John, nice pics.. I had no idea you installed a passenger seat ???
You are further along than you think.... :cheers:
Charles
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The passenger seat will be removable as an option for driving on the road.
The car came with a 283 that would make a great little street engine.
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We are now welding the chassis underbottom.
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John, see I told you it was looking good and you are closer to done than you think.
There is less work in front of you then behind you.... I hope !!!
Charles
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Pictures showing the seat mounts, modified a-arms, etc.
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John,,, I am so jealous of the your work,,,, Are the seat mounting tabs and plates 1/8 or 3/16 plate ?
Charles
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Charles.
The way you are designing and building your car, it should be very competitive.
By the way, your new tow vehicle is a four star; love to have one!
I have to measure the plates, not sure of thickness.
We, that is Steve, has a lot of welding to finish underneath the chassis; we are cleaning up the bottom side; I will provide photos as we go.
April at Maxton is going to be difficult but I'm giving it a try; hoping to go to Loring as well.
R.
John.
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We made good progress today on my Stude...John you can make April,,, it would be a moral victory to make it to Maxton and pass tech and make a few shakedown runs,,,, That is "BOTH" our goals,,, get to work we can do it.
Take care and keep at it....
Charles
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John -
I am planning my Stude and I understand you had some problems with the Slick Street conversion. What changes did you have to do?
Will
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Will.
Listed is a quick run-down and pictures showing most of the changes. Steve Kramer did the work and TIG welding. The changes have resulted in a strong, adjustable, and aligned front end (The front end is set at 5.7+ castor and that can be be adjusted). Fixes are not too hard now knowing what it is needed and how to do it.
Lower A-arms
Added an across brace tube.
Completed welding of the lower arms.
Reduced size of shock opening to permit more material around shock bolts.
Upper A-arms
Replaced upper a-arms with new steel cross-shafts rather than aluminum.
Changed length of a-arms.
Original uppers looked used.
Steering rack and mount
Adding a tube brace to reduce cantilever bending.
Shortened length of tie-rod threaded attachment.
Upper A-arm chassis mount
Repositioned inboard by drilling new frame holes to correct camber errors.
Added one additional bolt holding upper a-arms
Welded tube bracing for a-arm bolts into chassis.
Modified for aesthetics.
Completed the welding.
Spindles and ball joints
TIG spot-welded the ball joint to the a-arm so they would not loosen.
Returned lowered spindles for standard height spindles.
Both the lowered and standard height spindles could not be installed with the correct camber (4 degrees + was the best reached).
Had a lot of trouble installing upper and lower ball joints - extremely tight, bought new uppers.
Brakes
Strange custom-made caliper mounts and special hubs for Strange disc brakes.
Have not yet located necessary Ford spindle nuts.
R.
John.
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Will, I have spoken to John on my choice of front suspension,, but he had allready ordered his stuff.
I had FatMan (Charlotte, NC) build me a custom front stub assembly with 9 degrees caster and adjustable either way 4 degrees 4 degrees +/- so have a range between 5 and 13 degrees.. but feel 9 degrees is the right number.
Charles
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John and Charles-
Thanks for pointing me hopefully in the right direction. My plans are to run Gas Coupe so I need to use the stock frame. This cuts down on some of my options.
Now, just to hit the Lottery so I can get going.
Thanks again.
Will
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Will, that sheds a bit more restricted light on the choices.. Since I am running Altered I did not have to use the stock frame, so I decided to do a one off perimeter frame.
Good luck,, I enjoy driving my cars (settting records is fun too) but the sense of accomplishment in the build and design is just as good (or close ) :cheers:
Enjoy the process
Charles
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Will.
Hello.
Do you have a photo of your project? I went with the Slick front end to run gas coupe as well. That front end can be upgraded to work great and it is not too difficult now that we know what has to be done. Not every change made for my car is necessary. A lot of time was spent in the design mode, etc, actual changes could be done rather quickly, IF one has a TIG welder, that is not just the machine, but someone that knows how to use it (ha).
There is a problem however for gas coupe. The cantilever mount holding the steering rack protrudes a significant distance rearward causing interference problems with the engine oil pan. In other words, it is not easy to get the engine located w/i the gas coupe setback rule of 2%. So either the engine has to be moved back beyond the 2% or the engine has to be raised to clear the rack mount. If beyond 2%, then its Altered Gas Coupe.
In the end, it is just something to work out and, in my opinion, well worth the effort if one likes Studebakers.
R.
John.
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Some years ago, I put a Chrysler 392 Hemi in a 59 Studebaker with the stock front end. I just cut a notch in the forward part of the oil pan and it cleared the bellcrank...
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Charles.
The seat mount is 1/8 and 3/16 with bracing. The holes are being filled in the under chassis and all original welds are being checked, seams filled, and sanded as needed. The chassis and chassis welding are near completion.
R.
John.
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John,
Thanks for the update,,,
I am impressed with all the work you and your welder have done on the cage and chassis,, I love the BIG X Brace under the car.
FYI - My seat is Bolted Direct to the Cage and Chassis in 7 places with 7/16 Grade 8's and my seat belt mounting tabs are duel 3/16 plate welded direct to the Frame Rails and Cross Braces.
Keep it up
Charles
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The body has been reinstalled for completing fabrication of the rear housing and housing ends.
R. John.
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Two seats you must planning on driving around town a little or are you planning giving Charles a ride in a fast car. :-D
Robbie
P,S just having fun Charles!!!
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Hey John, It is looking good.
Two seats you must planning on driving around town a little or are you planning giving Charles a ride in a fast car. :-D
Robbie
P,S just having fun Charles!!!
Now Now Robbie,,, I know you are just poking fun....BUT...When you really wanna feel the rush of speed!!!
make sure you use the lil Porta Pottie first !!! and then you can drive my car...(don't want my seat messed in :evil:)
Charles
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Robbie.
The passenger seat is removable but needed to ensure clearances with the driveshaft tunnel, etc.; may drive on the street with a soft motor; will also use for teaching my grandson to drive a race car.
Charles.
You are way ahead diligently working days and nights (not a joke).
R.
John.
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You got me there Charles, but we are still having fun
Robbie
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A couple more pics.
R.
John.
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John -
I'm trying to figure out how to post my photos.
Guess I haven't figured it out yet.
Will
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Guess it worked. :-D
Wonder what I did. :?
Will
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Will,,, cool car,,, keep us posted,,, good luck
Charles
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Will.
Your Studebaker is looking good at the starting gate pushing a Cd = 0.32.
There is an immense amount of information lurking about LSR Studes but it seems to me they are still a one-off type build; many differences.
It is suggested you think very carefully about what you want from the car as once started it seems to take on its own life. As you already know, many folks out there that know a lot about these cars like Gary Hart, Charles, Hooley, and many others whom I do not know personally but have provided very helpful information; recommendation - talk to them.
Building a Stude will be a gestalt. Big issues: Class(es)!, HP, front end selection that affects engine position and class, rear end, chassis configuration, and small changes leading to big changes! Suggested ROM for starters from my perspective: triple time and double dollars.
If there is any questions or photos you would like, please feel free. I certainly do not have many of the answers but I am, note present tense, in the midst of many details.
I have a PowerPoint file of 450 LSR Stude pictures that have graciously alighted the internet. If you would like a copy, I could mail but the file is big.
Warmest regards.
John.
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Hello.
Does anyone have recommendations on transmission gear ratios for a 5 speed, 3000 lb car (approx.), and SBC in the 7000-8000 rpm range running at ETCA-Maxton or LTA-Loring. Please note whether ratios apply to a push start or not.
Thanks!
John.
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Hello.
Does anyone have recommendations on transmission gear ratios for a 5 speed, 3000 lb car (approx.), and SBC in the 7000-8000 rpm range running at ETCA-Maxton or LTA-Loring. Please note whether ratios apply to a push start or not.
Thanks!
John.
John, I have a 4 speed so not sure what you would want in a 5 speed as far as gears. With the larger cu in you are running I am sure you can pull a decent overdrive ratio. Since I only have 255 cu in, I use a close ratio 4 speed so I lose as few RPM's between shifts as possible.
See you in 2 weeks.
Charles