Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Boostedballs on November 26, 2008, 01:58:27 AM
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I have the bug big time and I want to get this car on the salt in 2009!
I bought this thing 12 years ago and I have had a lot of fun upgrading it and generally, beating on it from time to time. It started as a 262 V8 with Saginaw 4spd. I dropped in a 327 and really had fun, until the transmission and related components experienced catastrophic failure (CF). I decided not to drive this car on the road anymore. The reasons are many: It handles like a shopping cart and at 135mph I couldn't keep it in one lane. It's loud and I get more attention from the pigs than I do the chicks. Until recently, it's cost me more in tickets than in go-fast parts. Oh yeah, I picked up a chick in it once and she said "why would you soup up a Pinto?" No taste
I'll get some photos posted so you guys can see what kind of trouble I'm getting into and maybe point me in the direction as far as:
-What class to run, tires wheels, alternator or no alternator, safety gear, etc
I'm shooting for something like:
-Slammed chassis, carbon or aluminum dam with a splitter, carbon or aluminum side skirts, lexan windows, 1 5/8 DOM 12 point cage, turbocharged LT1 350 with Iron heads, Garrett T4 turbo .70cold/1.00 divided hot side, exhaust pipe exits right front fender, water-to-air intercooler, water injection, wet sump, Ford 9" rear with 2.50:1 gears, T5 from Z28, Stock 3-link rear suspension,
-On a budget of course...
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Welcome to the forum dude,I reckon your first priority is to sort out the handling its over a year since I was at Bonneville but as far as i can remember its a pretty straight line as things go but seriously good luck.
Oz
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The single most important thing you'll need is a RULEBOOK. Figure out down to the gnat's behind how the car will work within the rules. Decide which class you'll build the car for, then keep the rulebook with you all the time, constantly checking details.
Then go out and set a record.
SteveM.
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Welcome to the world of making a car made from beer cans go fast and straigt(er). First off read the rule book like they say. Then put a front to rear full cage it it so you have something to tie things together with, forget the "frame" itself. Next swap the right front spindal with the left front to get some caster in the thing. The first year (1988) my brother and I ran ours, we had a degree or two POSITIVE caster on one side and maybe a couple of negative on the other. Ran 199.836 that year and didn't know any better - Tuned up the the front end and set a record a couple of years later - Good luck with yours we sure had fun with our Skylark/Monza - Pat Kinne
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Thanks for the replies guys!
I plan on knowing the rulebook by memory. I wish I could have a PDF or something of it though. As far as class- I'm sorta trying to decide what I'm gunna do. I want to go as fast as I can as a personal record; that's great if I happen to break a standing record for a given class. Bonus. One of the main reasons I am getting into this is because it allows for creativity and originality, unlike certain other racing sanctions.
Pat, congrats on the fast H-body! As far as spindles go, I have a pair of S-10 spindles with a 2" drop and I was planning on making some adjustable upper A arms so I can align it 'dead nuts'.
What rear end, trans, wheels and tires did you run?
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It is not SCTA policy to put the rule book on line. It is part of our income to help with operating costs. Some associations give them free. Join SCTA or BNI and you get one with your membership. We don't charge for spectators except for the daily or weekly pit pass. I am sure someone near you might have a 2008 you can borrow. The rule changes are on the SCTA web site. Enjoy your build. :-)
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Pat,
If you swap the spindles left/right wont the wheels turn backwards?
DW
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Balls and Dan -
Nobody said it was easy - with the power Roy gave us, just carried the front wheels down track about 4 inchs - Worked for our Dragster. You believe that, I have more good info for you.
As I mentioned, we didn't know any better - we ran the stock Saginaw(?) 4 speed and stock rear end with beefed up trailing links. In my opinion the rear end is fine but the transmission was a bit sketchy at best - no problems but ---. As to tires we ran Goodyear Front runners - tallest we could get.
First year on the Salt the "pros" told me the Monza tends to turn around on you at about 190 or so due to lift. Shows you you can't believe the "pros". Our car ran straight as arrow most of the time - even after putting the big block in it (whole new front end too). I almost forgot to mention the other cheerleaders that told me as I was strapping in that the Saginaw transmission will seize up on you due to lube problems if you put to much power through it - great for the mind set on your rookie speed week adventure!!! - Have fun - Pat
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Thats kinda wierd i am also starting to build a 75 monza to run on the salt. might have to compare ideas.
here check it out
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Building a Monza can't be much different than building a Vega. Just start and keep going. My buddy Gary Williams ran a 302 SBC Monza for a while Pretty much stock except for the motor and top loader four speed. Cage and other safety stuff. Had the El Mirage D/Pro record for a while. Then he put in a LS7 454 with Hilborn fuel injection Vertex and some roller cam. Still had the top loader and Monza rear end. Thing went about 188 I think at Bonneville. Never broke anything. He never complained about how it handled.
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Just a quick note here...the T-5, even those in Z-28s aren't much stronger than a Saginaw. This is from experience, having destroyed both of 'em. There are a couple of versions of T-5s...the stronger version is called the "World Class" or WC (our friends from the UK should love that.) Although the WC version is a bit stronger, it won't take a lot of punishment, especially when used in a drag- or street-racing setting. Not that I'd ever race on the street. No.
However, for going in a straight line on the salt, it'd be ok for most smallblock applications, although I don't think I'd put it behind a blown motor. You might end up with a blown transmission. If I was gonna run a 5-speed, I'd run a Tremec 3550 or whatever they're called now. There are several racing transmissions you could use also, like a Jerico.
RtR
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Alway thought the Monza was a pretty slick body style for its day, and they competed well in IMSA. I recall some factory aero devices - chin spoiler, rear deck, and, I think, a ground effects package - they might be more for show than go, but if you're still determining class, check out all your options.
You could do a lot worse as far as a body is concerned. Wheelbase is a tad short - could get twitchy at speed, but that will keep you on your toes. :-D
Best of luck to you with this project.
Chris
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It is not SCTA policy to put the rule book on line. It is part of our income to help with operating costs. Some associations give them free. Join SCTA or BNI and you get one with your membership. We don't charge for spectators except for the daily or weekly pit pass. I am sure someone near you might have a 2008 you can borrow. The rule changes are on the SCTA web site. Enjoy your build. :-)
I actually do have a rule book but I wish I could open it electronically on my phone and do quick searches and stuff like that. I'm one of those techy guys...
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<a href="http://s536.photobucket.com/albums/ff327/boostedballs/?action=view¤t=DSC_05843.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff327/boostedballs/DSC_05843.jpg" border="0" alt="from the front">[/url]
Here's my project, I guess I could have blown the thing off with compressed air before taking the photo.
I got about halfway through building the adjustable lower trailing arms today. Once they are done, I will be able to check the rear end fitment. And build a torque arm that will go from the rear end housing to the trans mount.
I'm hoping the T5 can do the job. I wonder if I should beef up the housing and gears?
A couple questions:
Should I run an alternator or just the battery?
Should I run cooling fans on the radiator?
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As long as you are soliciting opinions . Yes run an alternator. No you do not need a fan.
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I know a guy in Tennessee that has all of the Dekon Monza IMSA body molds. He has a full car with all the stuff on it too.
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As long as you are soliciting opinions . Yes run an alternator. No you do not need a fan.
Right on, but I was trying to avoid building an alternator mount. :-D
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IMO The electrical load of your vehicle will dictate the use of an alternator. You didn't say what ignition you were going to run. Some like higher voltages. Electric options like fuel pumps, water pumps, helmet fans, data aquisitions, etc can draw down voltage pretty quickly and some ignitions don't like that. If you plug in a separate battery at the starting line it will help for starting..............Good Luck
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I'll be running twin electric fuel pumps, large electric water pump for intercooler, Stock ignition and fuel injection system (LT1), water injection solenoid, and that's about it. I have a pretty small alternator I can throw in there.
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I have the bug big time and I want to get this car on the salt in 2009!
turbocharged LT1 350 with Iron heads, Garrett T4 turbo .70cold/1.00 divided hot side, exhaust pipe exits right front fender, water-to-air intercooler, water injection, wet sump, Ford 9" rear with 2.50:1 gears, T5 from Z28, Stock 3-link rear suspension,
-On a budget of course...
This is my first post on the board and I have to start out asking why you chose a B-body engine? Please tell me you have made some changes to the internals...
You can make about 600hp on the factory hypereutectic pistons before you start having problems.
The iron heads flow a little better than the aluminum ones (around 225cfm) and they do lower the compression ratio down from 10.5 to 10.1. You can find another 50cfm or more from ported aluminum heads.
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As long as you are soliciting opinions . Yes run an alternator. No you do not need a fan.
Ditto!
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Why the B-body engine?
It was a straight trade for a TBI 350 that I had laying around. I figured the LT1 would be an engine that can still be upgraded relatively cheaply and the LT1 shares a lot of the external flanges as the regular small block that came from the factory for the Monza.
To sum it up, I guess I'm just cheap and lazy. :-D
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the B-LT1 is a HUGE upgrade from the TBI stuff. I went from driving a 91 Caprice with a TBI 305 to a 96 Impala SS with the LT1. The B-LT1 can definitely make some power ;) With over 150k miles on the odometer my Impala ran a 12.97@102.6 without doing anything to the inside of the engine. Stock throttle body, stock valve springs, stock rockers, stock cam, etc. Race weight was easily over 4100 pounds.
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the B-LT1 is a HUGE upgrade from the TBI stuff. I went from driving a 91 Caprice with a TBI 305 to a 96 Impala SS with the LT1. The B-LT1 can definitely make some power ;) With over 150k miles on the odometer my Impala ran a 12.97@102.6 without doing anything to the inside of the engine. Stock throttle body, stock valve springs, stock rockers, stock cam, etc. Race weight was easily over 4100 pounds.
That's wonderful news! I guess I'll get it going on the stock ecm with the compressor section of the turbo removed and run the car on the stock LT1 naturally aspirated until the chassis is all dialed in. This little Monza is only around 2600lbs before I put a cage in it.
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I would definitely suggest a cam change since the B-LT1 cam is the same cam used in the 265cid version of the LT1. 191/196@.050 .418/.430" lift on a 111LSA
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I would definitely suggest a cam change since the B-LT1 cam is the same cam used in the 265cid version of the LT1. 191/196@.050 .418/.430" lift on a 111LSA
I think that cam should work great in a turbocharged application, with 1.6 rockers of course.
I'm gunna leave the engine alone for now because I know it is in great condition and I'll focus on the rule book for now. I still need a ton of stuff for the car before I can even think about dumping cash into the engine.
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I guess I'll be running Goodyear front runners on the front but I'm having a hard time finding some rear tires that are readily available. I want to be legal for 250mph and I want to be able to find replacements when the time comes. I'm looking at about 27" diameter.
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The landspeed tires are in the Goodyear catalogue right in the same section as the front runners. They look similar but the difference is that they're a more durable construction.
Pete
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ok, so they want $495 EACH for the LSR tires. Holy sh*tballs Batman.
I met a gentleman at SW 2008 and he told me the secret to making a small fortune with LSR. He said to start with a large one...
I guess he was right.
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I'm planning on an 8 gallon fuel cell for this build. This should be plenty for a blown small block right?
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Remember, if you are running in the gas classes, you need enough for 2 runs. If you go to impound, it's an ordeal to get more fuel in your tank if needed.
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Gary,
I think 'ordeal' is a bit harsh. My guys try to be as accomendating as possible. It gets a little busy in threr sometimes.
DW
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Dan was quite accommodating with us last year when checking fuel levels and re-sealing.
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I guess I'll go with a 10 gallon cell. Can I fabricate this myself or does it need some certification with it?
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I don't know if this is the case or not anymore but you can also (if still allowed) get ERC to seal a 5 gal. jug of gas to use for top-off in impound. Dan?
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Yep, that's correct, but the impound person will have to witness you breaking the seals and pouring in the gas and reseal the tank in the car. I guess that's not such an ordeal afterall, that's why I have a 20 gal. tank and buy enough gas to last the event, if I can afford the $14.00 per gal of A8C.
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See Gary, I told you we are there to help.
DW
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So if I don't plan on breaking any records in 2009, do I still need to buy gas on the track? I just want to tune my car this year; I don't care what class I'll be in. I'm not going to take my engine apart or anything like that if I were to beat a record anyway. I'll probably be more serious about it next year when I decide what my ultimate goals are going to be.
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No, The only time it is mandatory to use event gas is if your are running in a gas class for a record. But if your going to use your own gas you may want to enter as a fuel class, just in something strange happens, but I'm the eternal optimist.
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So if I don't plan on breaking any records in 2009, do I still need to buy gas on the track? I just want to tune my car this year; I don't care what class I'll be in. I'm not going to take my engine apart or anything like that if I were to beat a record anyway. I'll probably be more serious about it next year when I decide what my ultimate goals are going to be.
As Dallas said, you don't have to, but it is a good idea, and since you are trying to tune to run at Bonneville, you should use the stuff you will run with the next time.... not all gas is the same :|
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Amen
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Remember, if you are running in the gas classes, you need enough for 2 runs. If you go to impound, it's an ordeal to get more fuel in your tank if needed.
We've been in inpound a time or two. We've always run gas, though not always gas class. Anyway, It's never been an "ordeal" for us to top off if needed. :-)
Sorry Gary, not trying to step on your toes. :cheers:
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Mike,
You guys are special. Gary not so much so.
Everyone knows I play favorites and only cater to the "Big Guns"
DW
Boosted,
Take Dallas' and Stainless' advice. Even if you are not running a record use and tune with the stuff you will required to use.
DW
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That's good news about being able to run whatever gas I bring because I will be doing most of my engine tuning on the dyno and the 1/4 mile with the local Oregon gas or E85 anyway. I think I'll be plenty busy with tuning the chassis / aero this year as it is. Then in 2010 I will hopefully have a balls-out small small block in there that I will tune for the track gas or E85. Baby steps I guess.
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E85 moves you to fuel class.
DW
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Touche'.................... :-D
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New career and house projects got in the way of any hopes of having this thing ready for the salt this year.
However, I will be at Speed Week 09 ready to lend a hand to anyone who needs it. Just let me know if I can turn some wrenches!
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Let me know if you need an extra set of those iron heads...The shipping cost might be a bitch though.
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Let me know if you need an extra set of those iron heads...The shipping cost might be a bitch though.
I'm planning on using brodix heads on the next motor. I am just using this stock engine to get things rollin for now but I'll let ya know if plans change.