Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: javajoe79 on October 20, 2008, 06:24:50 PM
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Well initially the plan was to build an all out motor for our first venture. Now we will just go our first time with a standard cube corvette motor. 600hp or so. Running in CGMS. Maybe CFMS with some spray. Then just work our way up motor wise from there. I will build the car, safety wise, to go as fast as we ever will.
I found some motor plates for LSx motors so we will plate the front. Then I would like the mid mount to also be the firewall. I am thinking 3/16" ss plate. If you are familiar with the corvette, the torque tube bolts to the bellhousing about where a firewall would go. So I would sandwich the firewall in between the bellhousing and the torque tube.
I plan to remove the entire stock floor, tunnel footwells and firewall. Replace the floor with thick plate, 1/2" ??????anyone?, and the firewall will attach directly to the floor at the bottom. I built the firewall flat on our world challenge and grandam cars and it provides alot of extra room in the engine compartment for turbos, headers, sump tank, piping etc.
With the tunnel gone from the interior it gives more room to build a good cage around the driver. I am thinking about a similar treatment for the rear bulkhead as I described for the firewall.
That's enough for now I guess.
I would appreciate any ideas or suggestions. Especially from you guys that have been around this a long time.
thanks
Chris
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Is your avatar fpto of the 44 Quaker State car?
FREUD
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Why so thick?
If you are talking about 1/2" plate steel the thing would weigh (est.) 700+ pounds to cover the area you suggest.
I used 1/4" 5052 alum plate braced 14" OC for the driver side and 3/16 stainless for the passenger floor.
My firewall is double walled with a 1/16" factory covered and doubled with a 3/16 plate separated by 1/2" and filled with ceramic fiber cloth.
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Is your avatar fpto of the 44 Quaker State car?
FREUD
The Group 44 Triumph TR8 trans am/IMSA car.
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Why so thick?
If you are talking about 1/2" plate steel the thing would weigh (est.) 700+ pounds to cover the area you suggest.
I used 1/4" 5052 alum plate braced 14" OC for the driver side and 3/16 stainless for the passenger floor.
My firewall is double walled with a 1/16" factory covered and doubled with a 3/16 plate separated by 1/2" and filled with ceramic fiber cloth.
For ballast mainly. Doug Odom did the same thing, I just don't remember how thick he said. We want it to weigh alot. Not sure yet if that would put too much weight towards the back. Maybe it should be thinner then add neede weight up front?
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C5 Vette; I used 3/16 CR steel plate for the firewall, floor and rear bulkhead. Ready to race without driver car weighted 3076lbs. LF 715 RF 735 LR 805 RR 821 with zero ballast. Sitting on 4 air bags it ran straight and smooth to 202mph. Planning on taking it to El Mirage next month and see if it likes dirt.
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I guess I thought you had said 3/8". :| Airbags huh? Care to share more about that setup?
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The rear is a modified NASCAR Cup type truck arm only very short because it does not move up and down much. The air bags are set very much like you would set up a 5" coil spring but the air bag does not raise or lower the car. It just isolates the vibrations and makes a comfortable ride. The ride height is set with 1/4" shims between the trailing arm and frame.
The front is a straight axle with shims to also set the ride height. That way the suspension geometry changes very little compared to the frame ride height.
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Interesting. We are planning on staying IRS and IFS for that matter for now. What class is your car in?
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GT. Class under Pop Motorsports
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While just my opinion, I would suggest building the car so that ballast weight can be added if and where it’s needed.
I have nothing but respect for Doug but I think even 3/8" steel plate is a tad overkill for secondary flooring....unless you have a large unsupported span distance between ends of the plate.
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After READING what Doug said I see that he mentioned that he used 3/16"!
I remember now why my teachers would scream "pay attention Hotnuts" everyday!
ALSO:
Recently I saw some demos of anti slip steel finishes from a vendor. THere was one finish that I really thought would make a good floor for a car. It was a sheet of steel that had thousands of tiny balls imbedded into the surface, much like the balls from welding splatter. The guy told me it was used in rendering houses and meat processing facilities as it was the only surface that was truly affective at preventing slips with the large amount of fat on the floors.
I found that grip tape on our secondary flooring really helps in getting in and out of the car. Once salt gets on the floor it is very slippery but now my grip tape is wearing off.
It is just a suggestion but you might want to look into a textured surface to help getting in (and over the side bar) you car.
This rendering house beaded surface is what I will use in my next project.
-JH
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I can agree on adding ballast later which I think would be needed even with a 1000lb floor. My thoughts on this were that I would need ballast later so why not put it as low as I can while at the same time making a real stiff floor? Also the floor would serve as a mounting surface for the ice tank eventually and that will be heavy. I was thinking that if the floor was thick it could just be tapped to bolt things to it, ice tank, charge cooler, fire bottle, battery, etc. If we eventually want to try and go 300 I would like the car to weigh 5000lbs or so.
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It is clear that you have thought this out and I wont argue with the concept, keeping weight low and having a solid place to mount stuff is great. *(you can also integrate the heavy flooring into the cage to make the drivers area potentially safer.)
The only thing I would like to say about it is just be sure that the location you will be adding the non removable weight is where you want it. Because my car is a mid-engine I added things like a second battery (in front of the front wheels) and water tank far up front not because I wanted too, but it was to help the weight distribution to compensate for the majority of weight being rearward. If the non removable ballast is not located in the correct place you could get into a situation where you have to add weight somewhere you didnt intend to level things out.
I would think you would be fine with where you propose to put the weight given the layout of the vette.
Others considering the same thing might not be.
-JH
Lets see some pix!
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Good point and it was my only concern that it might put too much weight rearward. As I have read I want the CG in front of the center of pressure. On our road race cars, they end up about 49/51 without ballast. So with the heavy plate as the floor, roughly in the middle of the chassis, it shouldn't change that. Then I can add weight as needed to get the distribution correct.
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Good point and it was my only concern that it might put too much weight rearward. As I have read I want the CG in front of the center of pressure. On our road race cars, they end up about 49/51 without ballast. So with the heavy plate as the floor, roughly in the middle of the chassis, it shouldn't change that. Then I can add weight as needed to get the distribution correct.
Are you going to move the engine back for more traction? I believe you can in Mod sports. :-)
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I wasn't planning on moving the engine back or lowering it. I think with the trans in the back, it helps out the traction issue. However, we may move it back, keep the C5 torque tube, and use C6 rear suspension for a slightly longer wheelbase.If I lower it much from stock, the bellhousing and or flywheel will stick out below the plane of the bottom of the car. I want a complete belly pan with no interruptions so I can't do that.
I have asked before but if anyone has roll cage pics, I would love to see them. I have quite a few but I could always use more. I am planning on a funny car style cage but any cage pics would be nice.
bvillercr...
How much fuel does your car use on a run? Start up + warm up + full run? Our goals are to eventually run a motor with similar power as yours so I would like to figure out how much fuel I need to carry. The vette usually uses two tanks, one behind each seat. I would like to run one cell on the passenger side. The smaller the better for packaging.
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Sorry it took so long to get back to you. We figure it takes about 1 gallon per mile including warm ups. Hope this helps. :cheers:
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Java, read the rule book on tank location. Pg.30, 3.I fuel systems. As I read it the fuel tank must be isolated from the drivers compartment. Do you plan on a sealed fire wall behind the drivers compartment.
Just wondering.
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Sorry it took so long to get back to you. We figure it takes about 1 gallon per mile including warm ups. Hope this helps. :cheers:
Thanks. So do you use at least a 6 gallon tank? I guess the stock tank is about 10 gallons. So I should be able to easily fit a 6 or 7 gallon tank in the same spot. Now to find an off the shelf fuel cell that will fit back there. We have done the custom bladder thing from fuelsafe before but it costs ALOT. I sent you a pm by the way.
Java, read the rule book on tank location. Pg.30, 3.I fuel systems. As I read it the fuel tank must be isolated from the drivers compartment. Do you plan on a sealed fire wall behind the drivers compartment.
Just wondering.
Yes I do. I have read the book but don't know if a bladder is required, maybe I missed that part. I will have to check in to that. Anyone know?
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Java, check with Jaz products, they make all kinds of fuel tanks.
www.jazproducts.com
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we have 20 gallon tank, a little big but it's large enough if we ever descide to run fuel
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Yes I do. I have read the book but don't know if a bladder is required, maybe I missed that part. I will have to check in to that. Anyone know?
I don’t think that a bladder is required but if you are going to have a fuel tank anywhere near the driver compartment I would go overkill and do anything to prevent getting burned up. Even though it would be adding weight to the rear wouldnt putting a cell where the spare tire went or in the trunk be an option?
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Yes I do. I have read the book but don't know if a bladder is required, maybe I missed that part. I will have to check in to that. Anyone know?
Even though it would be adding weight to the rear wouldnt putting a cell where the spare tire went or in the trunk be an option?
I thought about that and we have a cell that we could put there but I would like to keep the tank in front of the rear axle for the reason that you mentioned. I have to look around but I think that an off the shelf formula car bladder might work. The ones that are wedge shaped are what I am thinking of. Once I am further along and know how much room I am dealing with I can decide on a tank or fabricate one if no bladder is required.
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we have 20 gallon tank, a little big but it's large enough if we ever descide to run fuel
Good point on fuel.
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Here are a couple pictures of our cage with the lateral head buffers on.
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t246/bvillercr/IMG_2209.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t246/bvillercr/IMG_2208.jpg)
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Okay........ I just gotta ask, how do you pull those handles if your helmet is right next to them?
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Those push fire buttons are not normally there. We had to detach them to get our blown inter-cooler out. Good eye. 8-)
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Do you not run windows? I see the window net latch so I was wondering.
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So alot of the cars I see have the exhaust out the side. I guess that is better for aero. Eventually I will do it that way once we go turbo but for now, with an na motor, I would like to use headers that I have, with turndowns to the underside of the car. Will that be ok? From an aero standpoint? It will be loud, no louder than out the side or anywhere else but as far as I can tell there isn't a sound limit.
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Read the part that says exhaust can't be aimed at the salt again.
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Do you not run windows? I see the window net latch so I was wondering.
Many rules in LSR, we do run windows and a full safety net is required. You do not want the exhaust pointing down, it will chew up the track at bville and El Mirage.
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You can see the thrust/down force we get using zoomies, look for the thrust of the exhaust between 34/35 seconds in. :cheers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJApvHuDpL0
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I guess I missed those rules. I need to read the book a few more times. :-)
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look at 24 seconds---I think you are stretching you tie downs and are climbing the roller---settles back down when you back off at 34
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I guess I missed those rules. I need to read the book a few more times. :-)
Hi javajoe
When we first built 222 we had the exhaust parallel to the ground but it raised such a dust cloud and threw pebbles at cars in line behind us it was suggested to us to do something about it if we wanted to run at El Mirage
again.
JL222 :-D
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look at 24 seconds---I think you are stretching you tie downs and are climbing the roller---settles back down when you back off at 34
Sparky look at what is comming out of the zoomies not the movement of them. You can see the exhaust fumes extend well over the top of the car. Turbos won't give you that thrust.
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look at 24 seconds---I think you are stretching you tie downs and are climbing the roller---settles back down when you back off at 34
Turbos won't give you that thrust.
Really?
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Chris, I was thinking about your combo and the engine can be done in such a way that you can run it NA, though down on power, with nitrous if you want to go medium fast and again with the turbo setup later on. A cam change here, a head gasket there...Wendell just has to know that like the grand am cars it has to be bombproof and spending a little more now on parts will pay off in the long run.
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Chris, I was thinking about your combo and the engine can be done in such a way that you can run it NA, though down on power, with nitrous if you want to go medium fast and again with the turbo setup later on. A cam change here, a head gasket there...Wendell just has to know that like the grand am cars it has to be bombproof and spending a little more now on parts will pay off in the long run.
Bombproof is his main concern I think. He is willing to pay alot for it as long as it stays together. Thanks alot Daryl for your input. Your knowledge is indispensable. Please keep this engine in your thoughts. I hope that I can convert these guys to RPM power instead of the other guy in NC. For anyone on here who needs a truly thoughtfully built powerplant, Daryl is your man.
Thanks also to the rest of you guys for your input. Anything helps as this will be the first car of this type for me to build.
We have to see how money shapes up in the next few months but I hope to be able to make some sort of start on this car, this winter.
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Well aside from acquiring the car, I have made no progress. My bosses told me that they can't afford me this year so I am moving back to Tennessee.
Hopefully I will still build this car in the future but for now it is on hold. Damn economy.
:-(
I am still on here now and then but just lurking and reading up on all the great info this site has to offer.
I still plan on coming to Bonneville this year, maybe with some guys from Tennessee.
See you then folks.
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Bummer, It was good to meet you at El Mirage. If you get to Bville stop by our pits you are always welcome. :cheers:
Troy
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You too man. I will stop in at Bonneville to see you. I want to see that monster run again.