Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: JimL on September 16, 2008, 03:13:31 AM
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Been tinkering for a while. I'm not really sure this will work, but I've turned a shaftdrive engine sideways to run through a jackshaft (to get a better gear ratio).
- New engine came from an auction about 20 years ago (I think it was $35 or so)
- 68" wheelbase
- 27.5 degrees rake using Suzuki GSX600 front end, swingarm, 17" wheels (donated bike that was "beat up" in parking lot of a bar!)
- trail is 7% of wheelbase
- still much work to do on the fork springs, etc.
- main frame tubes are 1 5/8", .122 wall DOM
- bottom tubes and members are 1", .120 wall DOM
- more stiffening to come
- output drive will be to an old Honda countershaft (set up to allow easy countershaft sprocket changes (many choices).
- Kawasaki H2R fairing, that will need lots of modifying, but we use what we've got in this business
This projects name should be "Willitrun?"
Regards, JimL
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Cool What is the engine it looks like a CX500 but its a bit hard to tell from the photos if it is there is a Turbo version of that motor but you probably knew that anyway.I like to see something away from the norm and you certainly have it there NICE ONE.
TTFN OZ.
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Thats an interesting set up. Its great to see another push rod coming out. Where are you located? Is this a Bonneville only or will it see El Mirage? Good luck with the build.
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the output shaft and trans cover are not strong enough to support a sprocket...you will have to build a bearing support to support the other side of the sprocket... i will try to post some pix of ours
kent
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The engine is same as CX500. I've got CX650 carbs for it, and found the guy that has cam grind as used on the Honda flattracker for Freddy Spencer (they built a 750 out of one, turning it sideways like mine, but got rid of the "left" case). I lucked out and found an old Hooker exhaust that I can cut and turn. A few years back Hooker found some old motorcycle exhaust systems while cleaning out a warehouse (true story). They sold them off for the scrap metal weight and I picked up several oddball items. Fun stuff!!
I'm keeping it simple by using the jackshaft method, since the engine will fit behind the old AirTech H2R fairing. I make most stuff by hand, and do a lot of machine work with a file, which keeps me happy in my spare time! So far the biggest expense was an $85 gasket set.
I'm building this in Long Beach...planning to run Bonneville next year (if it works, of course). That will be the "40th year" since I ran a 450 Honda out there....seems like as good a reason as any, don't you think? :lol:
thanks for the interest...when I get the jackshaft system set up, I'll post some pics...I will be using an outboard bearing, in the sleeve I cut off the driveshaft (there's a dampening system inside that causes some trouble, as described by Kent).
Regards, JimL
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Are you planning on sectioning the H2 fairing to reduce the width?
If yes, straight through the center, or???
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jim
before you get too deep, you should come down and see what we did on randy's bike.
kent
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Thanks, Kent...I'll give you a call when I'm done with next weeks travel.
JimL
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the output shaft and trans cover are not strong enough to support a sprocket...you will have to build a bearing support to support the other side of the sprocket... i will try to post some pix of ours
kent
first off.....thanks for the fenders! Great stuff and helped us see 132+ on the KX!
i would love to see pictures of your jackshaft!
ummmmmmm.............errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
I meant to say.....It would be great if you could post photos of the final drive assembly you use.
seesh...sorry everyone
Is there a noticable loss/drain of horsepower?
Do you use it for gearing reasons also? or to reduce the span of a single chain?
Thanks
Mark
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Yesterday I learned the definition of "reverse learning". I got to visit Kent at AirTech, who was kind enough to show me around his projects.....also had a visit with his friend, Randy, who's already figured out what I was trying to accomplish (though I sure had some of it wrong!) I experienced the "reverse learning" process in just a few hours....where all your "for sure" conclusions turn around on you.
I had thought I had some pretty good ideas....but left his shop feeling pretty humble. For any readers of this board: About the time you think things are going along well....that's the time to talk to the folks with the real experience. Your time will be WELL spent.Big thanks to Kent and Randy for steering me away from some difficult troubles! :-)
I'll post some more pics, soon, I forgot my camera this evening.
Regards, JimL
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Yesterday I learned the definition of "reverse learning". I got to visit Kent at AirTech, who was kind enough to show me around his projects.....also had a visit with his friend, Randy, who's already figured out what I was trying to accomplish (though I sure had some of it wrong!) I experienced the "reverse learning" process in just a few hours....where all your "for sure" conclusions turn around on you.
I had thought I had some pretty good ideas....but left his shop feeling pretty humble. For any readers of this board: About the time you think things are going along well....that's the time to talk to the folks with the real experience. Your time will be WELL spent.Big thanks to Kent and Randy for steering me away from some difficult troubles! :-)
I'll post some more pics, soon, I forgot my camera this evening.
Regards, JimL
Kent and Randy helped me with lots of advice and parts for my bike and steered me clear of many mistakes I would of made, hell they even told me something wouldn't work and I forgot or tried it anyway only to find out that they were right, you really can't find much better help or dedication to the sport than those two.
Randy's 500 is a pretty dam fast 500..........
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It looks great! I like singles myself, and think sometimes the simplicity just seems right. Keep up the good work and keep the information coming! Gabriel.
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Oops...trouble with a post. I'll try again. Hopefully I'm not doubled up, here....
A little progress on the bike project....added a 1" x .125 wall tube to pick up the other engine mounts on right side of the block. I also added a steel shelf under the engine to slide it in and out the left side of the frame. The steering head area is now boxed to the 1 5/8" x .125 wall top tubes and 1" down tubes. Some additional braces have been added.
The header pipes are tacked together at 27.28" from valve seat to end of primary....there will be 27" megs (shallow angle) at max 3" (my '69 LSR 450 ran 5 degree megs at 3 1/2"). The forward header had to jog around the clutch, in order to keep the end of the meg behind my right foot.
I'm using the Suzuki front brake master cylinder for the rear brake, because I don't have enough room for my brake foot with the two megaphones.
The jackshaft is started, using the trans input shaft from a Honda CB500T (450 would work). The clutch basket broach is the same as the countershaft sprocket, so sprockets are cheap and easy to get (13T to 17T). I'm using 15T on the engine output shaft and 16T on the jackshaft (525 chain), with 530 chain and "whatever works" on the final drive. I'm wanting to enclose both chains and set up a "metered feed" chain cooling system, draining into sumps during the run. I'm considering using brush type distribution on the bottom run, to get good application without too much volume.
The jackshaft bearings are 20mm and 25mm pillow blocks (which fit the 500T shaft perfectly), rated for 5000 RPM continuous at up to 455 lbs (can't make that much with my little engine!). At lower RPM, the load rating is much higher on these pillow blocks. I'll use a 1.250" pillow block on the outboard side of the output shaft, sprocket carrier, to reduce bending load on the output shaft/bearing in the left case.
Here's two pics.
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Looking Good
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What is that motor sitting on the bench?
Love the project.
-JH
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hey Jim here is a link to cone eng they have really cheep megs and are off the shelf http://www.coneeng.com/pdf/cone%20list%20PDF.pdf
why dont you sell that h2r fairing on ebay and i'll sell ya a better one for what ya peddal the h2r fairing for
are you using some of the stock cx stearing head?
kent
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Hi Kent...the steering head/frame head is stock Suzuki GSX600. I boxed it to my homemade frame. Not sure about the fairing idea...this one is nice and wide to cover the goofy engine setup.
I'll drop your steering column and shaft parts tomorrow, if you are around. I found a really trick 75 degree angle shaft coupler that rotates smooth as silk and fits the upper column and lower slider shaft...it might work really well where the driver is close to the front axle; it's an amazing part!! I don't need it as my RMR will have traditional steering.
Jonny...the V6 on the bench is for my rear engine mod roadster project, currently hanging from the ceiling over the bike project! It's an old bored/stroked Tacoma V6 with Hilborn system for E/Fuel (it's about 4.0 liter, and actually is an orphan from long ago USAC development). It's a fuel only block, and can't be run on gasoline (no cooling below the upper bore area). As usual, I'm trying to put the car together with old Toyota parts ('cause that's what I have). I put another pic below.
and...as usual, I have NO idea what I'm doing....just creating weird theories and testing my wifes patience. 8-)
Regards, JimL
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Where are the pistons coming from for the scooter? The unique twisted geometry would seem to require something expensively custom.
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My best guess is to keep the stock pistons, mill the heads a little, camshaft change, and spin as hard as it will. I checked the budget....doesn't say anything in there about custom made, gold plated, diamond jewelled, one-off pistons! :lol:
It's a "just for fun" project, so I'm enjoying myself.
Regards, JimL
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Jim,
If you need custom pistons let me know, I give a racer discount.
J
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So here's the problem. I slipped one of Airtechs fairings over the bike (pic below) and the Suzuki forks are wide enough that the handlbar position is right at 6" to end of bar, from centerline of the tube. The rule book says hands 6" from fork tube, but doesn't say which part of hand. Width is no problem (well over 10" between closest part of hands).
Is this a case where the fairing has to be cut and bubbled? Kinda looks like it to me.
It is a pretty good fit for my (relatively) low bike. 1/2" lower and I wouldn't make the front rim height/streamlining fit requirement.
I also need to make a correction and comment, here, for those following along. Regarding the jackshaft, I discovered that a CB500T or CB450 output shaft is a better fit than the input shaft. It has a longer broached section for fitting the driven sprocket, and can be shortened to fit inside the fairing. Also, it is 25mm all the way except the 20mm end. By cutting off the 20mm end, both pillow blocks (25mm) can rest on the same plane (no tricky shimming necessary) and the overall fit is better.
I'm sure I'll learn more lessons as I go. That one only cost about $65, which is probably cheap by hourly rate, but pretty tough when counted up in my favorite "chocolate chip cookies" and "senior coca cola" from McDees!!
Regards, JimL
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the rule is the hands have to be outside the width of the fork tubes ----but it is suggested that the thumbs be 10 in apart ---the 6 in is minimum between the hands not from the tube read the rule again willie buchta
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...................I also need to make a correction and comment, here, for those following along. Regarding the jackshaft, I discovered that a CB500T or CB450 output shaft is a better fit than the input shaft. It has a longer broached section for fitting the driven sprocket, and can be shortened to fit inside the fairing. Also, it is 25mm all the way except the 20mm end. By cutting off the 20mm end, both pillow blocks (25mm) can rest on the same plane (no tricky shimming necessary) and the overall fit is better.......................................
Could you post a picture of the new jackshaft if or when you have it. Nice build,
Sum
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As those who know me, know...if I read something twice it'll have a completely different interpretation. Thanks for the guidance.
Like my daddy used to say, "Time sure does fly when you're confused!"
Ill post pics of the jackshaft setup when I get the new pillow blocks (hopefully doing the fit up next Monday night). In all honesty, Monday nights are often the time I undo or redo what I did on Saturday. I kid a lot, but this is actually how my projects seem to go.
The "Saturdays and Monday nights" has been a decent method for me, for quite a while.
On another note; I've been doing a little studying about "torque induced gyroscopic precession". After a lifetime of riding 2-wheels, this is the first I ever new what keeps the things from falling over. It also explains what radical geometry combined with enough wheel/tire mass can do to generate "speed wobble" after change in torque input (a bump, a steering input, or sudden increased power application to the driven wheel). From what I've learned so far, gentlemen, SHIFT/POWER UP GENTLY when the speeds are high!
It also explains the wiggle that often occurs on drag bikes, late in the run when tires and shifting hook up together. In fact, the light bulb went "on" (reading the articles) about a vicious wobble my Buell M2 threw at me, one day, on the 91 freeway. It was a full throttle 4-5 upshift, and the shaking and wobbling was unforgettable! I hadn't experienced that since my days riding flat-trackers on the 1/2 miles.
I'm suspecting this is an ugly deal if the bike has to be leaned while running in a straight line (weight balance off)....any hard shift, at speed, will create torque induced gyroscopic precession because the rotating wheels are not at right angles to gravitational pull (precession will try to turn the front wheel into the lean angle).
If you think it can't have that much force, try the simple "ten-speed bike wheel, spun by hand, trick" (described by physics instructor) for a real shock....don't hurt yourself.
Maybe everyone knew but me, but the good articles I've found on physics websites have really opened my eyes. I need to pay attention to the side-to-side balance (anybody old enough to remember Vespa wobbles?)
Have a great weekend, folks!
JimL
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Just one quick pic. I had to build the megs, before I could figure out where the right footpeg lives.
JimL
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jim looks good keep the pics coming willie buchta
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Jim, I'm following your build closely from OZ , it great to see someone thinking outside the square , well done mate.
Tiny
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hey jim
I have be inquiring about the spinning mass and will probably put a juicer on the gyro... i need order a bunch of megs from cone next week for those 4 Motobi's i need to build, give me a size and i'll order ya a couple.... i also have a set of handle bars for ya...
kent
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Just one quick pic. I had to build the megs, before I could figure out where the right footpeg lives.
JimL
I'm asking for my own knowledge, does the lower megaphone meet the 7.B.20 rule as being pointed away from the course surface?
I've always assumed it could point straight back, but not downwards, but how much angle down is allowed?
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jim
What cha hiding behind the curtin oh great and powerfull Oz.?....
kent
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Sock, they don't want the exhaust pointing at the surface. Something that exhausts against the surface 10 inches away is a no no. One that intersects the surface 5 feet away should be great. Those in between are probably up to the inspector.
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Thanks for the comments, folks. The pipes are not yet mounted at the rear, so are hanging down a little. Even at this angle, a straight line from the bottom pipe would probably hit the ground about 5-10 feet behind the pipe. The picture is a little deceptive, actually.
Megaphones also have remarkably cool "end of pipe" temperatures, with slow outlet velocity (I had thermal stickers on the megs on my CB450 I ran in 2007, and it didn't even darken the 250Farenheit sticker!) This, even after I made a pass jetted too lean (had to back off the throttle to speed up). I know that modern exhaust systems are all about velocity and keeping gas inertia high, but I love the sound of long megs...and this is MY toy to play with. :lol:
Regards, JimL
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jim you still working on the bike willie buchta
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I love the sound of long megs...and this is MY toy to play with.
I'm sorry, you are going to have to share. There may be more than one of us that likes the sound of a good megaphone!
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Yes...still working but little progress. I have the pieces to machine for the jackshaft (had to change course a little).
I'm up to my ears in an old Toyota flat-bed dually...gotta rebuild the engine, replace the trans (switching from auto to manual), fix the efi, etc.... I bought it to fix, but the plates run out in November, so I'm really hustling. I'll get back to bike real soon. :-)
Thanks for the interest!
Regards, JimL
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Hello anyone there ?
Sheri Buchta
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not likely Sheri, it's New Year's Eve .... in fact......HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Lynda
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Hey Lynda,
Happy New Year to you as well. Hope it will be a good one.
Sheri Buchta
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Sheri, Tell Willie its a NEW YEAR---it's time for him to come out of posting retirement.
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Hi folks....getting onto the bike project again. Engine coming apart....I'm REAL unhappy with the jackshaft "deal".
I've got to prove to myself there isn't some way to fab a new trans countershaft and seal setup to get chain directly to the rear wheel. I may have to build a solid shaft that carries between the original output bearing location and inner countershaft bearing.....to get rid of the flex coupler buried inside that case. I'm pretty sure I can build a bolt-in pocket case to carry seals and allow sprocket changes.
I'll keep you posted if I find a way...otherwise I'll move forward with the jackshaft arrangement and water spray for chain cooling.
Meanwhile, the roadster project hangs over my head (literally...it's hoisted to the ceiling on a chain hoist....and I'm working under it!) :roll:
Regards, JimL
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Opened up the engine, took apart the flywheel/stator bucket, and checked alignment for a direct countershaft sprocked. It looks good, if I cut off the outer edge of the remaining flywheel (see picture). I'll still have enough for the back-side starter drive, after turning down the flywheel. I always run constant loss battery systems, so no problem without the alterator (they are a lot of drag on motorcycle engines, because they are permanent magnet....just like an exercise bike).
I'm planning on making a steel case to carry a countershaft seal plate, and an outboard pillow block bearing. The steel case will seal to the cut-away original outer case.
I'll cut down a CB500T output shaft, then make a coupler using the original part seen in the photos (on the end of the countershaft). The steel case will also serve as a "case saver" for the front of the chain run. There is a pic of the approximate area to be removed from the outer case (along with the original output shaft bearing).
The main case countershaft bearing (behind the coupler) is a full sized part, not the "mini-bearing" used at the outside of the outer case. This will be a lot of work, but a lot less power loss than going around 3 small sprockets, with two chains!
More soon,
JimL
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Since I decided to eliminate the jackshaft, and it's attendant power loss, here's where I'm at:
- I removed the alternator drum and magnets from the flywheel then a friend turned the flywheel down as small as we could go and still have an electric starter. There are before and after pics of the flywheel below, and one showing where the sprocket has to line up.
- I'm dropping the left case off for millwork, tomorrow, then will have plates welded in to allow my countershaft sprocket to run "outside" (photo below). I'm planning a bolt on seal carrier, and a sleeve on my output shaft.
- My CB500T shaft will be cut down, mated to the driveshaft inner coupler, and a single pillow block mounted outboard to reduce the load on the countershaft output bearing. the pillow block will have to unbolt for countershaft sprocket changes.
- Shown in the photo is my largest countershaft sprocket (17 tooth), and I'll start off with 41-42 teeth on the rear sprocket.
- I'll try to run about 9500-9700 RPM at top speed, which gives about 4300 RPM on the countershaft sprocket.
Tonight I cut away the left "swing arm" and part of the frame, to make clearance for my new chain angle (since I won't have the jackshaft to lower the front of the chain).
More to come!
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Good to see you are sticking with it I am sure you will get there. nothing is ever straight forward or it never seems to be!!will the smaller flywheel make a big difference to power delivery more revvy / less torque
Good luck are you going to run this year?
Oz
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Thanks OZ....so far it looks ok for this year. I got the left side of the frame reconfigured this weekend, to make room for the new chain run. Parts are at the machine shop for rework, case milling, etc. I'll carry the end of the output shaft extension in a single 20mm pillow block. That bearing will be mounted on a steel cage, supported by main case and engine mount bolts. The welded up case won't have to take any load. Tomorrow I've got to order 8 feet of chain....
As far as the flywheel issue, I can't say whether it matters a lot. These small engines stay pretty far revved up, and the clutch basket package is geared to the crankshaft for a little flywheel effect. On my old CB450 with no flywheel, we had a lot of trouble starting it (my dad towed me off the line, on the door handle of his Chevy Van because it didn't have a starter).
Gordon Jennings (Cycle World) had found out that the 450 advancer wouldn't stay in place on it's weights, when run with radical cams, "one-spline twisted" torsion bars, and 12,000 RPM. I learned about it in a magazine article, in time to fix the bike before Speed Week '69. Curiously, that "door handle start" routine led to the only time I ever got my picture in a motorcycle magazine, which was back in the early days of Hot Bike. They didn't know who it was....it just made an odd picture at the bottom of a page. Below is a pic of Jeanne and I in 2007....I'm still hanging on the driver's door, but the bike has an electric starter now.
Personally, I like to run without alternators, on cars or bikes. Straight 12 volt is easy to diagnose, and doesn't run the risk of popping a diode and becoming an AC generator where it shouldn't. This pushrod bike will run two batteries, one for starting and cooling fan, and one for ignition.
Perhaps if my wallet doesn't collapse, I'll have the old 450 out along with this bike. I've got some friends that would like to make a pass on the old girl, just to see what it's like. It seems to be pretty indestructable, and the old chassis wiggles enough to entertain you (oh man....Kent's gonna make hay with that one...).
Regards, JimL
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its ok with me! i like old girls wiggling under me! :-o
Kent
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its ok with me! i like old girls wiggling under me! :-o
Kent
Oh shoot...there's a picture I didn't want in my head :-P :-P
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Do you reckon the no flywheel set up out weighs the drag of the umbrella?
I like the look of the 450 from what I can see.
I thought of ditching the alternator on the CBR but the solenoids and ancilliarys wont allow it there is just too much draw I reckon the alternator and battery will only just cope.
Oz
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Hi Jim you got your bits back from machining yet.....Have you got some more pics and some of the 450 apparently they have started road racing them again in Ireland in there own class or so i have been told I know they were pretty bulletproof but I would have thought they were few and far between now.
Oz
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Jim, let's put Gordon Jennings back at CYCLE Magazine where I met him. His last issue as editor was December 1969.
He continued to soldier on for a long time after Cook Neilson took over.
He was at the CYCLE MAGAZINE reunion, April 2007, in spirit and scripture.
FREUD
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Hi fellas.... I'll take some pics of the parts and fit-up tomorrow. Thanks for the interest in the old bike, oz. Here's a pic below.
Also, on the last page of my little website is a short video of the bike leaving the line on my 62nd birthday, in 2007. You'll also see the bike when I made it "street legal" for a bit (really a miserable ride with Bonneville gearing).
http://home.earthlink.net/~leinfam/id4.html
If this doesn't work, take off the id4.html and try it....some browsers don't like the whole coding.
regards, JimL
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Meant to say...my 61st birthday....oh, what the heck....it doesn't matter a year or so off, right? :-P
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Jim...that is a clean shot. Congratulations.
FREUD
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Excelent the gearing on the 450 is long aint it you are out of sight in second gear.Cool!
Got your fingers in all sorts of pies judging by your site you must be a real busy guy.
We Dropped in at Moab on the way back from Speedweek in 07 and man that was Hoy Hot Hot dont envy you riding off road in that!
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A little more progress. Pictured is the extension shaft, which mounts on the original countershaft, and is carried in an outboard pillow block. The pillow block base will bolt to a "cage" that mounts to the main crankcases and original motor mount pickup points. The idea is to keep location of the shaft "dead true" regardless of engine fit-up (such as removing for tech inspection...just in case it ever gets fast enough). The extension shaft coupler uses part of the original shock damper, and is pilot bored to fit over the original output shaft nipple.
The extension shaft has a 48mm outer, on the coupler, to allow for a crankcase seal. The seal will be carried in a bolt-on cup, to allow centering on the shaft before locking down the seal. It's also important to have the seal floating free while alignment of the shaft is confirmed. This is the same method used to put front main seals on old Land Cruisers (install pulley with timing cover bolts loose, then bolt down cover).
I also included a shot of the reworked left side of the frame, to allow for the new chain-run orientation. I have enough clearance to carry a 17T countershaft sprocket (the biggest available for CB500T).
Regards, JimL
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Is that a spherical bearing that you are using if so will that be ok its going to be spinning mighty fast?
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The bearing is rated for continuous 5000 RPM at max load (forgot the number, but pretty strong). My max output shaft RPM (on the rev limiter) is about 4500 or so, in 5th gear. Should work for 30-60 seconds if I keep it lubed, and the bearing is only taking half the load (pressure fed bearing in the main case takes about half).
More a question of how long this old man can hold his breath, trying to stay tucked in (before I got rounder, I folded better). ...which always remainds me of the Saturday morning in the cul-de-sac years ago....all the neighbors tended to gather in the street to chat.
My friends wife was poking fun at his growing beer belly, when the neighbor gentleman (from Jordan) broke in...."Ah, Jeanne," he said," in my countree we haf a saying, 'It ees a verry poor mon, indeed, who cannot afford to beeld a shed for hees donkey'." :cheers:
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Could you use a drip feed like a scott oiler but just a small thimble sized one with a breather and a couple of squirts of oil in it into the grease nipple
And we also have a saying or two like that
i aint getting old and fat i am developing muscles that enable me to sit for long periods of doing nothing.
Its not a beer belly its a fuel tank for a sex machine.
Myself I aint kidding anyone I am just getting Fat!!
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Cmon Jim more details please hows it going?
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Ewes not getting fat! Ewes just getting fluffy! :cheers:
Lynda
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Drive side case is machined, fill plates cut and bent, heli-arcing will be done tomorrow, Saturday I'll build some and get pics posted. I was working on the d&*#ed ol' flatbed truck stuff again tonight....got woozy from the paint fumes, and forgot to take pics of the bike parts in progress.
While we're talkin'....has anybody had any problems running REALLY long chains? Mine has quite a bit of reach, and I'm not sure if I should have some lower slides or something. Any thoughts or ideas would sure be welcome.
thanks, JimL
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While we're talkin'....has anybody had any problems running REALLY long chains? Mine has quite a bit of reach, and I'm not sure if I should have some lower slides or something. Any thoughts or ideas would sure be welcome.
We extended the motocross swingarm nearly 4 inches and didn't have any chain length problems...center of counter shaft to center of rear axle is just shy of 30 inches.....not sure is this is really long or not?
Even with the length..the limited suspension travel kept the chain from touching/lashing against any of the stock mx chain guides.
Mark
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Thanks! I'd forgotten how long hill-climber chains were, and they really get whipped hard.
JimL
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OK...here's pics of the welded up case (now you have an idea how tiny the flywheel is!), shaft extension, and approximate location of the outside pillowblock. After the welding was done, I ran into a little trouble with the shifting sticking. The line bore for the intermediate arm is a little off, so I'm hand working the bore (in the outer case) to get it working. It's close, now, but I got tired about 10:PM and quit.
I'm planning to anchor the pillow block to the engine, only, and not the frame (using 3 of the original rear engine mounts and a fork to the main case bolts on the sprocket side of the engine. I still have to make a seal cup to fit inside the case (it'll be a simple bolt on).
Regards, JimL
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Ive got 140 ish links in my chain so I put a little jockey roller in the middle of the run just in case,Its only an old skateboard wheel on a slide mount I thought it better safe than sorry.
Oz
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Thanks for the thought, oz....I think I'll look at a draw slide for early 20R timing chain, to damp the whip after the countershaft sprocket. Once clear of that, a broken chain might lay down pretty good...... I left a CB750 chain on a highway, back in 1971, and was amazed how well it just layed out and stopped about where it broke (was running over 100mph). Weird physics there!
Anyone had experience breaking a chain at speed, on the salt? Ideas/suggestions to control/minimize such an incident?
Thanks for any comments/ideas.
Regards, JimL
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breaking chain at speed? Oh yeah, at least 6 at speedweek '06
kent
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When we broke one we suffered a little damage to the clutch push rod and the cover... but to qualify that, the 20 tooth sprocket didn't leave much room for anything to be even slightly out of place.
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Thanks for the comments... I've set up my final drive to leave room for two different positions for the front sprocket. This will allow me to get a smaller sprocket tagged onto the inside of the rear sprocket (a cut down one to use as a mount) and the availability of going to 520 chain (the old SL350K1 countershaft sprockets fit my shaft). That can give me a little more clearance around the front sprocket.
This is going to be a real close deal for the horsepower needed. The Norton has run 128 at El Mirage, and the Triumph has 117 at Bonneville. I should be close, but it's anybodys guess and that's why I redesigned the final drive.
This is eerily similar to my situation with the CB450 in 1969. The C motor Kawasaki 500 Triple ran just over 120 in my class (after I'd bumped a 101 to 111 the day before), and I was able to come back at 121 and make it stick....meanwhile a Norton was running about 126 in another class I wanted to chase and I couldn't get past 124!
Is this what they call "deja vu all over again"?
I have to say, I am REALLY enjoying this little project, despite all the screw-ups, re-dos, and how-d-heck did that happen?
JimL
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129.817 at El Mirage. Good looking build. I'm looking forward to see it in person and see it run.
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Output carrier is together and mounted up. The chain run worked out exactly where I hoped. I can adjust the pillow block forward and back, as well as vertically, because I built the mount with shim washers under the forward tie bar. All made from 3/8" plate.
Here's pics for today.
JimL
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What keeps the sprocket from walking laterally?
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Jonny, I still have to cut the groove for the retainer. It uses a steel plate that slides down the splines, then turns to lock in the groove and bolts to the two holes in the sprocket. I've got to buy a new Dremel tool to do it, my old one died.
Good thread you're running on that engine work!
Regards, JimL
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Do you need to cut a groove? You are already on splines could you not just use smooth bored spacer tubes if they dont foul anything.
Oz
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I will have to put a groove outboard of the sprocket. I made a seal cup, today, and mounted it behind the aluminum plate (inboard of the sprocket). I cannot let anything ride against the seal.
The cup is a simple "homemade 40mm ID tube" welded to a large flat washer with two 6mm nuts welded to the edge of the washer. The holes in the aluminum case are slightly oversized, and I mounted the cup (with seal installed) inside the case using FIPB (form-in-place-gasket). The oversize holes allowed me to assemble the output shaft onto its' bearing, then tighten the cup mount bolts (the seal centers the cup on the shaft, so I didn't have to figure out prefectly where to position the mount bolts).
This is the same method the old Land Cruisers used in the timing cover for the crankshaft seal. The entire cover mounted on the block with oversize holes and a cork gasket. The crank pulley was installed first, to center the seal, and then the cover was bolted tight.
Like they say...there's nothing new under the sun; everythings been done before!
Regards, JimL
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Here's the sprocket retainer, chain guard welded in, chain installed. Seal is in place and everything spins freely.
A lot of chain on this thing...not as much as some folks, of course, but more than I've ever messed with.
Regards, JimL
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Excellent Jim she is looking good, I see you have a sheet over her now dont want people taking sneeky peeks !!
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how's the wheel spin jim?
kent
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Hi Kent, the wheel spins free and easy, just like a normal small displacement street bike. The covers are because we have lots of projects in the shop, and a lot of grinding and welding going on. We sometimes have to shuffle each others projects around to work on our own.
I use painters drop cloths to make the pic easier to see, and they are nice because they burn slow if you start a fire (assuming you never used them for painting). I have them across my shelves, and across the front of my work bench to keep hot, nasty things from getting back into my equipment (just screwed on with sheet metal screws). Really cheap and it makes my work-space safer...grinding or welding sparks don't light them up, just a little smolder spot. If you get one lit, you can put it out with water or beer (coffee leaves a stain, however).
Regards, JimL
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:x :x :x Don't use beer to put out fires!!!!!!!!!!! That's alcohol abuse! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Here here save the Beer!! :-D It aint nice with grinding dust in it assuming you do wring out the dust sheets!
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Tachometer mounted (on rubber mini-mounts), upper radiator hose fitted, handlebars coming along, brake working, coils mounted, rear fairing mount fabricated. I build rear fairing mounts from solid rod, never tubing. Years ago at Aspen, we learned what the broken end of a small diameter tube can do to a leg (almost cost a friends life). I've used small diameter "soft iron" rod ever since, on anything near my body that might take a hit. Besides, if you drop the bike, it's easy to straighten out "goot enuff".
It looks like I'll have room to run my favorite 14" tuned intake length, including some short velocity stacks. Still an awful lot of work to do.
Regards, JimL
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OK....fairing mounts in place, clutch working, rear brake working, shifter working, foot pegs mounted, exhaust hung (had to rework my workstand), picking up the VM36 Mikunis tomorrow (gave up on the original CV carbs....too small and too old). As soon as the igniters are hung, I'll yank the engine, tear down, and get cracking on camshaft, compression, valve lightening, and head porting.
Still have to build the dual battery box, belly pan, seat, tail, etc. Also a fuel tank, steering damper, kill switch/lanyard (I'll use the same "fuse popper" system that worked well on my CB450).
Having some fun, now.... sure hope it'll start when the time comes!
JimL
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Jim,
Really love the exhaust!! Can't wait to hear it!
Ever notice that as you seem to be getting closer to being done the list of "details" just keeps getting longer!
Neat build, can't wait to see and hear it on the salt.
Rex
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Looking good,Makes me wonder why Honda didnt do it that way around!
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Carbs mounted, tonight, and Rex is definitely right about the little stuff getting difficult. I had to cut a pair of Mikuni mounts to insert into one GL500 mount and one CX650 mount. That got the carbs in the right area, right angle, and close enough length to use a velocity stack to "get right".
Then....trying to get the slides to close, and also open all the way, using a modified Yamaha Banshee throttle cable. I finally shortened the lower cable housings (see pic below which shows how much I cut off), then hand-filed the stops at both ends of the throttle drum. It now has full closing, and full opening.... it was really close to get full range.
Meanwhile, the to-do list gets longer as I see how much is NOT done!
Regards, JimL
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Jim,
Are you planning to run the velocity stacks thru the fairing into the air stream or are you going to have an external scoop and a air box?
Rex
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They'll fit inside the fairning....it's set up fairly wide, I guess you'd say, to keep my "elder" body out of the breeze. The trick will be finding some that will fit!
Regards, JimL
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For a wide range of velocity stacks try TMW
http://www.twminduction.com/AirHorn/AirHorn-FR.html
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Thanks, Tom...I'll make a pattern of inlet positions and swing by there on one of my runs (It'll require some angles or siamese to fit).
Regards, JimL
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Hi Jim,
Have been reading your build diary posts from the start and being a CX/GL motor bike enthusiast my self would like to wish you all the best with your build.
You also have many members of the Australian CX500 & CX650 Register - australiancx.asn.au - watching your posts as well to see the final outcome of the motor and mods done.
Good Luck.
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jim 7.B.22 second paragraph willie buchta
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Hi Willy, the filler section to the engine case is a bolt on part of the chain guard. It comes off so the engine will slide out of the frame, which is what you see in the pic (part unbolted....sitting on a shelf at the moment...two mount studs on the side of the welded chain guard.) Same reason the left front motor mount is so long...has to remove to get the engine out; very little clearance and can't tip due to low top frame tubes.
Regards, JimL
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thanks, Paul F. I am having fun, whether it succeeds or not!
Tonight I pulled the engine apart, cleaned everything (the engine is brand new...never been run...it was an auction engine from a college program that never used it). Cam goes off the the grinder on Wednesday. I took pics of the inside portion of my output shaft coupler...then left the camera sitting at the shop, oops.
Oh well, maybe tomorrow night a couple more pics to show how the inner seal cup works.
Regards, JimL
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Good to hear its still coming on well,Like you said a few more pics would be good.
Oz
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Here's a pic of inside the cases, of the extension shaft/seal cup arrangement. The seal cup keeps the parts engaged when I'm changing countershaft sprockets, but when the pillow block carrier is installed it pushes the shaft away from the cup.
simple enough.
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"Life is what happens to you, while you were busy making other plans."
Good thing to remember, in the middle of a project that gets interupted! Below are some pics taken tonight. The bike is finally coming together. It still needs additional wiring, lower radiator hose (and water pipe modification), a rear fender/tailpiece, inner rear fender, belly pan...and the list goes on.
I hope to start the engine this weekend, if all goes well. I'm thinking I'll need a skate board wheel under the middle of the chain....time will tell.
Regards, JimL
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Thanks for the update Jim.
Your racer looks great, lots of custom fabrication.
It will be an interesting bike to watch and follow it's progress. Are you planning on attending Speed Week?
-Scott
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Looks great, love that seat!
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Great Project Jim!
Lot's of thought and time involved and the end product looks fantastic....Nice original idea.
Where will you be running this machine?
Good Luck,
Buzz
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Nice one its looking good are you going to make speedweek jim it looks like its just about ready.
Oz
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So where are the cams on this engine. I see some sources saying it is overhead cams and others it is at the bottom of the V?
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So where are the cams on this engine. I see some sources saying it is overhead cams and others it is at the bottom of the V?
Stop changing your post's.. :wink:
The engine fits in to the Push rod classes and has for several years, I did the pistons for Randy Nelsons multi record setting bike..
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John,
I changed it because I got conflicting info on where the cams were located. Sounds like the cams are in the middle between the cylinder bases? What a crazy engine set-up!!
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Thanks for the interest, folks. The original intent was this year Speedweek, exactly 40 years after my first Speedweek.... anyway, it is unlikely to work out, so it'll have to wait for another opportunity. One thing I do NOT want to do.... is try out my strange driveline (for the first time) on the salt. It might throw little broken bits on the ground, and other folks don't need that problem!
About the seat...I found I couldn't get my right hip to agree to the flat, wide seat. I realized I don't have a problem on my bicycle, so I got a used mountain bike seat from REI ($5) and welded it to a bolt on plate. It is MUCH easier to bend down flat while getting my feet onto the pegs.
I must admit, part of the problem came about because I designed the chassis long enough to fit two of these engines (in line). The current engine can go back, by moving the batteries, reworking the middle vertical tubes, and shortening the chain. I left enough room between the frame rails, under the seat area, for the rear valve cover. The photo below shows the extra space for changing "rear" engine position.
A second engine could fit ahead, with the V rotated forward and the crankshafts connected by a large diameter, counter-rotating intermediate gear. That's the reason the lower frame rails are so wide, with the left lower rail 10mm lower than the right (to get engines in and out while coupled).
If it works out, in the long run, there is a 674cc version of this engine that would be 1348cc when doubled up. The first step is the baby step...just trying to get it to work at 500cc (and making some power with the experimental cam Webcam made for me). I hope it turns out to be a good toy to play with in the years to come!
regards, JimL
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Shame you aint going to make it this year I would have liked to see you there! What a fantastic Idea with the two engines though.
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The good news, is that the engine is running strong (after some dumb wiring mistakes were fixed), and I've run the rear wheel up to 125 or so on the stand (about 9000 RPM / 5th gear, with this gearing). The chain seems to run very smooth and true... in fact, we were all standing around trying to figure out why.
It certainly wasn't what I expected. My best guess is that there is so much chain running straight, that it tends to stay in line because of all the inertia (it looks kinda weird...running like a belt, not a chain). I tried pulling hard rear brake, against 5th gear at almost full throttle...couldn't hold it, but the chain just kept humming along straight, both top and bottom runs?!
Anybody got a better guess?
Baffled, JimL
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:-D If it works,,,,,don't fix it! Go fast, and go safe! Crow
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Test rode today....runs pretty good....but very hard to maneuver at low speed with only 15 degrees of steering and a very long wheel base (can't turn around in a large 4-way intersection!) Going straight is a piece of cake; great steering response and tracking perfectly (thanks "BLUE"....I followed your directions for rake and trail, and it works). Pretty exciting under power....I actually had a beer after the ride, just to calm the hands a little, ya' know (my 2nd beer this year, actually.) :cheers:
Trying to finish the mold for the tail section....might get this bike to Speedweek. Just "body work" and "paint work" left to do. We'll see what happens over the next few days. This one means something to me, as it's exactly 40 years from my first Bonneville, also on a 500cc class Honda (which was also an APS class bike.)
Regards, JimL
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Good on ya Jim hope to see ya there!!
Get a wriggle on its 4 and a bit days to go.
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It's on Richard Reeds old sprint car trailer.....a friend is towing it out in the morning. I'll be about 6 hours behind.
The first pic below is my "quickie" tailpiece mold. Hot glue and foam-board, sprayed inside with Poly-Vinyl-Alcohol, then shot gel coat, and then hand layup. Not great corners....big hurry...but fits perfect. The pic from the right rear shows my clear Lexan knee shield, to keep from banging my knee on the fairing mount bar as I fold myself into position. Numbers and all still to do....never have gone with a completely ready racer, somehow. This bike is number 1581 (my 1969 Speedweek bike was 158, thanks Chuck K for getting me the appropriate number!)
Best wishes and safe travel to everyone. It will be GREAT to see everyone again.
JimL
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This can be the end of this thread, since the drive worked fine and the bike went well despite a hurt cylinder before the event (had a stuck thermostat and the rear cylinder firing late while trying to run the engine in the shop).
I ran both runs short (shutting off at the 2 to get out of the way since it was misfiring). The bike raised the record from 111 to 123, so I guess I'll fix the engine and try to do better next year. My last past was 124.9 and still accelerating.
Thank you to all the comments and hints over the last year. I believe this will be a fun racer in the years to come, and the engine certainly has a lot more power in it once I get good pistons, and fix the carb issues. The mouths of the velocity stacks were drawing off each other at speed....my left knee got gas on it on both runs, and there was a little white cloud hanging there in front of the stacks...spooky! It was another one of those "ran out of time deals" and I tried to get by with stock parts.
Big thanks to all the course workers, officials, staff, and inspectors....I had a wonderful time. Here's a pic of Drew measuring my engine for the record.
Regards, JimL
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Wow! Well done! :cheers:
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Congratulations JimL! It's great to see a project that we've been following end in success. Why not continue the thread showing how you solve the current problems and the further modifications you make to increase your speed. If you do I'm sure we'll continue to follow.
Pete
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That"s a well deserved record obtained the hard way. Good job.
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Congratulations Jim!! Stout runs.
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Congrats on the record Jim, hope to see you there next year :cheers:
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thanks fellows....I'm looking forward to tearing down and seeing what I've got to work with. I also have 674cc engines on hand, and would like a shot at the 750 record. I'm going to rework the frame a little, for quicker engine swaps.
I'll post a little after the project gets going again. Right now it's time to pay the penalty for taking a couple days off!
Regards, JimL
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Congratulations Jim great job. Sorry we didnt run into each other on the salt.
Fred
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I also have 674cc engines on hand, and would like a shot at the 750 record.
Jim I have a set of 38mm Lectron carbs that were used to set the current APS-PG 750 record. Let me know when you start building your motor for the 750 class, I will let you borrow them.
Randy
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Lectrons are magic up there.
FREUD
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ooops!! :-o
Soooo....I'm checking out my growing stack of engines, and discover that the 674cc engine is MUCH taller than the 500. It turns out there's a deeper crankcase (pan) hanging off the bottom. The extra 3/8" deck height was not going to be a problem, but the case sure is.
soooo......I picked up another old steel frame Katana....looks like I'd better get cracking on a new frame and a new plan. I'll have to continue with 500cc in the current bike (and the option of 1000cc). The new bike will be built to take the 674 engines (for 750 or 1350). I'm guessing rear suspension might be good, with that much power.
Meanwhile, the parts struggle is going forward (trying to find rod bearings and other internals, that have been gone for years).
As the old saying goes, "The best laid plans of mice and men." I'm about where I was a year ago....still making mistakes and trying to dig my way around them.
Good luck with everyones projects, this winter. I'll try to post something when I have something more interesting, but it'll be a while.
JimL