Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on September 13, 2008, 06:08:09 PM
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heres a few pics in progress of the plenum Im building for the car. Using 1/4" plate.....seems overkill but allows me to do nice round sides....doesnt weigh too much.
This is the very early stages....more to come soon.
(http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v339/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30148988_2972.jpg)
God invented plasma cutters
(http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v339/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30148989_3737.jpg)
Pre-tacks
(http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v339/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30148984_1661.jpg)
All sides welded and ground
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Overkill? Maybe not.
Calculate the area of top or botton plate in square inches and then multiply that times your turbo boost pressure in pounds per square inch. It is probably higher than one might imagine-- that's why a lot of intercoolers rupture.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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uuhh... Jonny
Looks fantastic! :-) but, you forgot the air holes :-D
Geo
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Johnny,
the best plenums dont have any square edges on the inside... You should always try to keep the edges on inside rounded... Front what I understand this is why many rupture, flat square edges... Also depends on how much boost. Dahlgren would be a good source on info on that.
JonAmo
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Johnny,
the best plenums dont have any square edges on the inside... You should always try to keep the edges on inside rounded... Front what I understand this is why many rupture, flat square edges... Also depends on how much boost. Dahlgren would be a good source on info on that.
JonAmo
I need to know if avoiding square sides is advised because of structural reasons or performance reasons. I know that you want to avoid square edges in a NA airbox to cancel standing waves. I did not think that this applied to turbo plenums.
I am confident that there is not a turbo alive that could split this plenum. I would feel that a box with these dimensions and type plate would be able to handle well into 100+ psi.
I figure I will be running between 18-20 psi. I am however building the motor to make 600+ and detuning to 375-425.....for our goals next year this will be about 50 more hp than I honestly feel we need.
If anyone knows for sure if the round sides are for structural reasons please let me know!
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Johnny I like where you're going with this. Do a little more research. I think you'll find the a bell or raised radius enty is still important in a turbo engine. So just don't cut a hole and weld a tube to your plenum chamber.
Have fun with the turbo build!
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Engines/Fromshop702Small.jpg)
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Engines/Pictures03-15-08236Small.jpg)
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Engines/BritoonDyno002Small.jpg)
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/Engines/BritoonDyno004Small.jpg)
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dynoroom Knows his stuff... he also confirms what I was trying to imply... Ill see if I can get a couple shots of my plenum also which was designed by Dave Dahlgren
JonAmo
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I need to know if avoiding square sides is advised because of structural reasons or performance reasons. I know that you want to avoid square edges in a NA airbox to cancel standing waves. I did not think that this applied to turbo plenums.
A turbo engine is a N/A engine running at a higher pressure ratio. A square plenum is not the end of the world though......
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/09-07002Small.jpg)
I am confident that there is not a turbo alive that could split this plenum. I would feel that a box with these dimensions and type plate would be able to handle well into 100+ psi.
Don't be too sure..............
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/RR_Thomas_04_1Small.jpg)
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p126/Dynoroom/RR_Thomas_04_4Small.jpg)
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Dyno Room,
Love the pics of your plenum(s) but the big Binder lifting the block is fantastic!!! The tractor pull guys like to run 2 or 3 turbos in series and can get 125 psi of inlet pressure and it looks like the Binder had a contest between the crank and the block and the block lost!
Johnny, did you weld your plenum inside and outside?
Rex
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Take into consideration that this is the first time I have welded aluminum. I am using argon and alum wire without a spool gun. The guys at the welding shop said it could not be done. I kept the line straight and used a .35 tip with .30 wire and it did fine....not the best I have seen but VERY adequate.
Dynoroom....funny you would say this about the radiused intakes. I used some (rather expensive) Factory Pro aluminum velocity stacks before I read your comment. I didnt have prier knowledge that a tapered intake even for turbo apps is a better way to force air into the TBs.....it just seemed right to me. Plus I had the stacks sitting around and figured they would be better suited for this as apposed to giving them to Fred Vance (I almost did.....sorry FV.....Friends dont let friends use Factory Pro!).
And yes, I did weld both sides…..I dressed the outside for cosmetic reasons but both sides are welded.
(http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v322/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30149280_8086.jpg)
(http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v322/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30149281_8442.jpg)
(http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v322/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30149282_8777.jpg)
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and this is your idea of getting a few things done around the house? :-D
what spec alooominum did you use? not my subject, but I know that some will be a disaster.
How does the clearance to the back face of the plenum compare to the diameter of the trumpet - looks a bit close to me. Not that you have a back face yet.
I went to see a friends turbo installation, he had a sexy looking rounded plenum reminiscent of early porsche race stuff. I asked him how he made it, as it looked like a couple of weeks work. He looked a bit embarrassed and admitted that he'd made it square and the boost had done the rest. Don't worry, it was a lot thinner than 1/4".
Andy
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"square edges in a NA airbox to cancel standing waves"
AFAIK it's not the corners but the flat surfaces that reflect a very strong discrete wave, while a radius scatters its reflection - think stealth.
I don't understand why the shape affects mechanical strength, though. The classic "square windows doomed the de Havilland Comet" argument isn't relevant - that was stress raisers in thin sheet metal over hundreds of hours. The only clue I can think of is the surface to volume ratio, which places more stress per square inch on a square shape. Comparing a cube with a sphere of the same volume, the cube's surface area is only 80.6% (or (1÷(6/Pi)^.3333), or 124% of the load per square inch.
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Rough guess: if the rectangular plenum is 2 × 6 × 18", the volume is 216", the area is 312". At 20 psi that's 6,240 lbs. load on the walls.
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IIRC Larry Widmer suggests the 1/2 donut (torus) sectioned through the thickness as the preferred entry shape in a plenum, as shown in one of the photos.
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these guys do some interesting bits and bobs
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/intakepartspage.html
for what it's worth, there are some pics of my plenum here
http://www.renaultpower.com/?rS=gallery&cid=56
Andy
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Thanks JH I love you too man. :-D
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Panic---I would guess that it has to do with force vectors and surface area---my UN-SWAG--
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I modeled the design to emulate this plenum.
(http://www.sandrpro.com/another%2520pic%2520of%2520Ultra%2520plenum.jpeg)
Here is a pic of the bigcc plenum.....uses straight tubes....even their ultra plenum have only a slight radius.
(http://photos.l3.facebook.com/photos-l3-sf2p/v339/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30149622_5122.jpg)
Hopefully I wont loose too much with the way I did it. Most of the turbo hayabusa plenums I have seen use the straight pipes with 0 radiuses.
and this is your idea of getting a few things done around the house?
what spec alooominum did you use? not my subject, but I know that some will be a disaster.
How does the clearance to the back face of the plenum compare to the diameter of the trumpet - looks a bit close to me. Not that you have a back face yet.
Andy,
I am not sure of the spec....only that these were plates measuring 3'X4' that were used to bridge the span between a trailer and the loading dock, and intended to have enough support to hold constant foot traffic. I would say its somewhat harder than most aluminums I have worked with
The distance is 2.5" (64 MM). I am considering making an arched, bolt on top. I also intend that I will be able to swap tops for secondary injectors if I dont use the port fuelers
BTW:
Loved the pics of your car.
Also will toss you some ideas about using non standard application turbos for this project (holset) for instance.
Outside dimensions are 14.5X6X2.5
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Johnny,
I pulled out my old copy of Roark and Young "Formulas for Stress and Strain" and did a little "pie are square, three bags full" on you plenum and 20 psi should not be a problem if you used a weldable alloy of aluminum. That would typically be a 6061 (prefered) 6063, 5052 but if you did a 2024 or one of the 7000 series then your weld strength might be in question. It is possible to weld these alloys and actually make good looking welds, an I must say that I am impressed with your welds appeance for having done them with a "mud" gun, but the welds are typically very brittle and of low strength. I would highly suggest that you attempt to find out what the alloy is before you spend more time on this project. No need to build a great looking piece and then have it fail because of the alloy.
Rex
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I don't understand why the shape affects mechanical strength, though.
It is due to the mechanics of the way the surface flexes. A large flat surface has very little stiffness to "oil canning" under pressure. It tends to concentrate most of the bending action near the edges and this frequently causes work hardening and fatigue cracks along the corners, especially if welded.
If you are running a large square box it helps to put stiffeners inside the panels to give them more resistance to bending up in the middle of the panel due to pressure build up, or to put pass through gussets that connect the middle of the large panels to each other so the bowing in the bottom panel tends to help resist bowing in the top panel for example. I have seen a couple folks drill a hole in the large top and bottom panels with a tight fit for a rod, and then weld the rod top and bottom to the panels to tie them together and prevent (more like limit) flexing under boost.
At 30 psi boost the forces are pretty large and each time you go on and off boost the surfaces will flex in response to that change in forces. Large rounded corners will distribute the panel edge bending over a much larger area and add some mechanical stiffness due to the geometry of the panel.
Imagine what the box would do if you made it out of thin rubber sheet and tried to blow it up like a balloon. It does the same thing under boost although on a smaller scale. Any feature in the design that concentrates bending forces in one small area will set you up for a fatigue crack over time. Any sort of backfire (even a minor one) into the manifold of course will almost guarantee lifting the largest panel in the plenum box as momentary pressures might go over 100 psi.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=674571 <--- some of these manifolds cracked shortly after install
http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/intakemanifolds/index.htm <---- see the subaru intake manifold picture
Larry
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Remember at 30 psi boost, if your plenum is 10" x 10" measurement on the top surface the total amount pf pressure is 3000 pounds, 10x10x30=3000, food for thought.
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Gee, thanks, why didn't I think of that???
[/sarcasm]
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I would highly suggest that you attempt to find out what the alloy is before you spend more time on this project. No need to build a great looking piece and then have it fail because of the alloy.
Rex
Because this plate was gifted is there any practical way to determine alloy type?
I did a few welds on some test pieces and "attempted" to beat them apart with an engineering hammer.
On what I did find is that the penetration was good and required more force to separate the sections than I was willing to exert at the time. On the section that I was able to fold over it did not break until it was at about 45 deg..
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Hey Jonny
Here is a pic of the spigot area of my plenums. It is a billet CNC piece. If something like this would help your project PM me.
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I went to see a friends turbo installation, he had a sexy looking rounded plenum reminiscent of early porsche race stuff. I asked him how he made it, as it looked like a couple of weeks work. He looked a bit embarrassed and admitted that he'd made it square and the boost had done the rest. Don't worry, it was a lot thinner than 1/4".
Andy
He wasn't the first....
The last water tank that Nolan built was measured to fit the frame in the nose just as tight as could be made.
IT was a beautiful job of fitted and welded aluminum.
It was all straight cut pieces with some folded corners and the rest was welded and fit pretty good.
That evening ,I came over to check on the progress and found the tank was all radius in the panels and really fit the space available.
I had no idea who and how all that extra work happened , but now it was better than ever.
As we were locking up that night he said "I saw you looking at the tank and you never actually asked about it." What happened, was during the day he fired it up and chuffed a head gasket into the water jacket and the squeeze from 1 jug " PILLOW POOFED" the tank to fit.
It was an unintentional result ,but he silently enjoyed the credit for all the extra work.
If you were brave enough to ask , he was brave enough to share the truth.
That is really the important part for both sides that needs more work.
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...Any sort of backfire (even a minor one) into the manifold of course will almost guarantee lifting the largest panel in the plenum box as momentary pressures might go over 100 psi....
Larry
It can go a hell of allot higher than that... :-D
(http://delsolid.googlepages.com/boom.jpg)
My favorite part of the picture is the thread inserts that were pulled out and now look like little springs poking up in the air. Apart from the obvious plenum damage and a few sensors missing the engine was fine.
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Let's see... when did they start using pop-offs on GMC blowers, was it 1955...?
A simple cover plate, loaded in place with a calculated valve spring and installed with gasket sealer (after all, it's a safety device not a regulator) will cost, what - $10.00?
Since this is EFI, only hot air is vented and shouldn't disturb anything, so no duct is needed.
Safe vent = 4 × 1.5" holes (7.1 sq." area) with a hole saw, with a 6" × 6" × 1/4" thick rectangular plate across the top.
A 3/8" hole (valve stem size) centered between vents, 3/8" bolt inserted through the roof (or your choice) of the plenum from below with thick big diameter washer under the head (pin the bolt in place, or make sure you can reach it from inside). Bolt goes up through cover plate by 2", secured by lock-nut and valve spring collar. 7.1" area × your boost + 5 psi. E.g., 20 psi expected, 25 psi × 7.1" area: the plate will pick up against 176 lbs. of spring tension, but just barely.
Remember, just cracked may not vent excess boost as fast as the compressor is supplying it, so don't assume a pressure drop is a done deal.
1 big triple valve spring should do it, test with a compressor for cracking pressure. It may need to lift 1/2" to vent everything, so a big spring is needed.
More vent area? Bigger holes, more holes, 2 springs etc.
Carbureted? Must exhaust only into a safe duct, and pass outside the vehicle without going near exhaust, electric, rider, etc.
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The pic above had a 3" diameter pop off valve on the top. It wasn't enough :-D It continued until we installed dual blow off plates about 1"x6" each in addition to the pop off valve.
The real problem was that the entire plenum was wet with a combustible mixture of methanol & air so basically we had a 26 liter pipe bomb. Ahhh good times, good times ... :-P
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After calling my friend who gave me the plates he was able to find the original purchase voucher from about 6 year ago.
The plate is 1/4" 5052.
http://www.ez.org/aluminum.htm
5052 This is the highest strength alloy of the more common non heat-treatable grades. Fatigue strength is higher than most aluminum alloys. In addition, this grade has particularly good resistance to marine atmosphere and salt water corrosion. It has excellent workability. It may be drawn or formed into intricate shapes and its slightly greater strength in the annealed condition minimizes tearing that occurs in 1100 and 3003. Applications: Used in a wide variety of applications from aircraft components to home appliances, marine and transportation industry parts, heavy duty cooking utensils and equipment for bulk processing of food.
Good, bad or other?
-JH
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Good Jonny. We usually weld it with 5356 wire which feeds much better than 4043 in the machine. A little preheat definitely helps the quality of the weld and a thorough degreasing and wire brushing with a stainless brush will add to the quality of the weld. Save the brush for aluminum welding only.
Pete
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JH;
It would look good anodized-- have you considered doing that?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Clear anodizing would work fine. Colors are another matter as the welds are a different density than the plates and often come up a significantly different color.
Pete
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You're right about that, Pete. If you dye the anodizing a dark color there is less mismatch but it still should look pretty good.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Use contact paper and make it look like tree bark.
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Johnny,
5052= GOOD! Continue! Still impressed with your "mud gun" welds!
Rex
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Good Jonny. We usually weld it with 5356 wire which feeds much better than 4043 in the machine. A little preheat definitely helps the quality of the weld and a thorough degreasing and wire brushing with a stainless brush will add to the quality of the weld. Save the brush for aluminum welding only.
Pete
Jonny, have found these to be invaluable for prep when welding Al, also good for getting sand into all sorts of sensitive items ( tools, motors :oops:, pants, eyes)....just a quick blast along the seam and away you go.
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=&item_ID=12852&group_ID=1799&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
Big admirer of your 'tude dude, you're not a spectator are you :-D :-D Make the thing and relevant advice is forthcoming ...and there's plenty here.
Johnny,
5052= GOOD! Continue! Still impressed with your "mud gun" welds!Rex
...ah yes the "hot metal pump"....
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If you're going to blast the pieces before welding, especially with aluminum, use the brush after as the weld really doesn't like silica. Glass beads are preferable to sand.
Pete
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Johnny thank you for the insight in your turbo project, the subject of a homemade turbo system for my Hayabusa powered lakester has occupied my mind for the past month. I looked on the Nebulous Theorem web site pictures showing the use of the stock rubber air box connecters in thier turbo plenum? What do you think of this idea? It does make the plenum a little easier to construct and you probably gain some Suzuki engineering as to the shape of the inside and entry of the connecters. Just a thought, I am not opposed to doing welded connecters. Congrats on your records.
BHarmon
7077 H/BFL
(someday)
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O.K.....on your homebuild turbo/system (draw/thru in our case) to fit a Busa head.........build your plenum with 1.5 inch spigots to the head........machine up 4 spigots to fit over the spigots on the head....retain the machined
spigots to the head with set screws, sealing with a rubber o-ring..........go to you you local plumbing store and buy 4 Fenco #1056-150 1.5x1.5 rubber pipe connectors....these connectors are molted and come complete with clamps for $20.00 for 4.............and there you go!!!
GO FAST..............................................................................
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I looked on the Nebulous Theorem web site pictures showing the use of the stock rubber air box connecters in thier turbo plenum? What do you think of this idea? It does make the plenum a little easier to construct and you probably gain some Suzuki engineering as to the shape of the inside and entry of the connecters. Just a thought, I am not opposed to doing welded connecters
Rick is a smart guy when it comes to making the busa motor run. I find it way more impressive that someone designs, fabs and applies ideas to make HP as apposed to someone who buys HP out of a box. RY definitely is an innovator (*and pioneer) to busa HP.
This does not mean that I have to agree with everything he does.
This would be one case…..doesnt mean its wrong (it is after all, proven to work) only that I would not do it.
The stock boots only method for retention to the plenum is a lip that pops in. With the high temps of boost (the stock rubber is not designed for heat and could soften) if the plenum was not 100% ridged to the motor under boost I could see the potential for the boots to pop out (this may over spool the turbo….bad). I am not saying this will happen….only that I would not feel comfortable with it.
This is the method I am using for the connection:
(http://photos-579.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30160728_4090.jpg)
The "boots" are the same high temp silicon that connects the up pipes and the clamps are the good ones.
I haven’t been able to do much on the plenum for the last few days; I am waiting on my fuel rail blanks.
Should be here is a few days.
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JH;
Any time you clamp a rubber hose section to a tube (or even a stub), it helps to bead the tube end to prevent it's blowing off. It can come off fairly easily under pressure and vibration. If you can't bead the end of the tube, cut a groove in it (this works only on really thick tubing) or run a weld bead around the outside. In a desparate emergency, a few sheet metal screws will work; the heads of the screws prevent the hose from sliding over them because the hose is clamped to the smaller diameter.
A friend in a single- seat off- road racing sand rail got burned when his radiator hose came off and dumped hot water down his back. He became a believer in beaded tubing after that.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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This is the method I am using for the connection:
(http://photos-579.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30160728_4090.jpg)
The "boots" are the same high temp silicon that connects the up pipes and the clamps are the good ones.
I haven’t been able to do much on the plenum for the last few days; I am waiting on my fuel rail blanks.
Should be here is a few days.
jonny- I have found with my turbo kits that two thinner clamps to secure the plenum to the t-bodies better than a single large clamp.
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Great STUFF guys---preach on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I agree that all pipes need swaged (or equivalent) ends and 2 clamps. I'm not sure if that's the case here, the plenum will be braced off the engine, and the rubber tube is just making a seal.
Other tips for making boost tubing stay together are (these are not a replacement for swages, they are in addition):
straps that bolt the 2 tubes together
grit blasting the clamping surface
hairspray..
The trick with the last is to harvest brownie points whilst enduring you have the right stuff. Next time your partner of choice's hair takes on that crispy, cardboardy texture show some interest, enquire about the products... However, if you want to ensure you don't suffer the brownie point crunch make sure you wipe all your fingerprints off the can. Getting oil out of the serrations on the little white button will take a few minutes. Anyway, you degrease then spray the mating surfaces, assemble, and leave to dry overnight.
From the "Korean turbo" thread it sounds like you've picked a turbo, when do you get it ?
Andy
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Sooner or later the box is going to break. The square corners are going to fatigue fail from the pressure fluctuations.
If you haven't cut holes in it, put a fitting on it an pressurize it to 100 psi. You will be alarmed at how much the center balloons up. In fact, make that 50 psi. At 100 it could fail.
I would put 3 center studs to help retain it.
Even with a turbo air flow is still king. The flat sections and corners are going to cause turbulence. The square edges on the intake tubes also cause turbulence. Amen to putting a bead on the tube to keep the rubber tube from blowing off.
Learned that the hard way. Nothing like having 30 psi boost at 9,000 rpm and having the hose blow off. It took about 3 days to go back to regular breathing. :-o
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Dean, a 100 psi :? , hell, the 50 will probably kill him....
JNuts, don't pressure that thing above 20 unless you need the scare of your life. 20 X total square inches the box, do the math, don't even consider 50 to 100 unless you borrow the container from the bomb squad. With any luck it will just pop a seam... :|
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+1
When i tested mine at 35psi i did it from a distance, lots of square inches there...
Put a hole in a dyno room wall one time when a BOV blew off at 30 psi, biggest air rifle pellet i ever seen... :-o
Quick and simple bead to secure hoses is to run the tig around the bottom of the tube , it makes a small bead that rolls over the edge a little, then use a clamp that fits above the bead .
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... Learned that the hard way. Nothing like having 30 psi boost at 9,000 rpm and having the hose blow off. It took about 3 days to go back to regular breathing. :-o
I had a 3" line blow off at ~50PSIG at the 1000' marker at LACR, and even from the starting line it sounded like a 30-06 rifle. I thought it was a rod going through the block. Nope, but the flying clamp went through the fender liner. I was beaded and using a high quality clamp, but apparently did not check the clamps often enough. They get loose over time from the expansion and contraction. If possible, use the clamps that have a spring in them so if they start to get loose, they maintain at least some tension. I guess I should also safety wire the clamps to they can't fall on the track, but that's on my "list of things to do".
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I am including overkill metal tie down bars that connect the box to the motor on all sides.
Really the only thing the silicone tubes between the plenum and tbs are to prevent leaks.
I never meant to say that the boots would be how the plenum would be attached to the motor.
As far as I can see it, as long as the plenum can not move away the motor via the hold downs the silicone connectors will be adequate. Am I wrong to think so?
Also,
Given the lowish psi numbers I will be making, and the fact that the thing will get used about 30 miles every other year I don’t have a lot of concerns that the thing will come apart.
I studied a few other plenums out there before I built this one and IMO this is far stronger than the standard off the shelf unit that comes with most every “stage 1” kit I have seen.
This is a pic of the NT2 plenum, and one that I used for design cues.
Same material thickness, more surface area, more welds, more corners and more boost.
If my plenum comes apart….I will blame Rick! :-D
(http://www.yacoucci.com/albums/album01/101_0111_IMG.sized.jpg)
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As far as I can see it, as long as the plenum can not move away the motor via the hold downs the silicone connectors will be adequate. Am I wrong to think so?
Yes. Another reason for putting a bead on the tubing (or groove or hair spray) is also to prevent the silicone from creeping out from under the clamp.
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Don't ever pressure test any container with compressed air-- if it ruptures it may do so with explosive force. It is far safer to pressurize a container with water; since water is not compressible the stored energy is very low so a tank rupture simply results in a water leak, not a sudden explosive release of compressed air (stored energy). I think that welding tanks, etc are hydrostaticly tested.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Don't ever pressure test any container with compressed air-- if it ruptures it may do so with explosive force. It is far safer to pressurize a container with water; since water is not compressible the stored energy is very low so a tank rupture simply results in a water leak, not a sudden explosive release of compressed air (stored energy). I think that welding tanks, etc are hydrostaticly tested.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Exactly Neil, the safest proceedure.
all rated pressure vessels are done this way
a dye in the water will help trace the leak visually...although not the easiest to see at times where shapes are complicated and difficult to see the source...ie intercooler cores.
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Dean, a 100 psi :? , hell, the 50 will probably kill him....
JNuts, don't pressure that thing above 20 unless you need the scare of your life. 20 X total square inches the box, do the math, don't even consider 50 to 100 unless you borrow the container from the bomb squad. With any luck it will just pop a seam... :|
[/quote
Being round must change the equation as a lot of air tanks hold a lot more pressure,such as my portable air tank made out of thin metal '130'psi.
Our old intercooler box 19 x19x1/4 with 5'' rounded sides and 3 holddown studs in the middle never had a problem including a backfire that blew off one of our centrifugals blowers. After that happend we installed a burst panel like they use on top fuel cars. 32 psi max pressure seen normally from blowers.
On the other hand a seam opened up on our intercooler at Bville this year aproximately 16 x 19 x5 x3/16 on bottom tank .We didnt realize it had happend as the shiffter air line rubbed against the hot intake tube to the intercooler and started
making a lot of noise. One reason seam opened up is we had removed panel to epoxy water leak and welded new panel in but could not weld inside as in others.
JL222
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Being round must change the equation as a lot
A round pressure vessel relies on the strength of materials. A square/rectangular vessel relies on the strength of the corners. They don't make square airplanes for this reason.
Not to mention that pressure vessels are designed. Not to ding JH but there was no design criteria here, just seat of the pants. If this was a gas tank or coolant overflow then when it cracked you would have a leak. On a pressure system you have the potential for an explosive release of stored energy.
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Use contact paper and make it look like tree bark.
that would be interesting :-D
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(http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v364/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30162901_5241.jpg)
(http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v364/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30162900_4895.jpg)
I put 2 inlets in the box, inlets splitting the TBs evenly.
I figured this would be better than one inlet on the far left side as I was going to do.
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JH
It was good meeting you at Bville this Aug. You might look into the small round burst panels that Wilson Manifolds make like in the spacer under our intake elbow on the 222 camaro. These are replaceable if they blow out [with new ones] but i don't know if they sell the bungs they screw into.
When i was looking for new intercoolers i noticed that one manufacture welded straps and angle stock over seams so burst seams must be a common problem. Chisel Performance .com i believe.
Good luck JL222
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(http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v364/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30162901_5241.jpg)
(http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v364/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30162900_4895.jpg)
I put 2 inlets in the box, inlets splitting the TBs evenly.
I figured this would be better than one inlet on the far left side as I was going to do.
Jonny Hotnuts
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline
Posts: 666 :mrgreen:
Jonny,
Ditch the single clamps for the throttle bodies to head mounting and run two clamps per cylinder.. and listen to those smarter than me (that would be about everyone here..Shhhhhh)
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Posted by: John Noonan
and listen to those smarter than me (that would be about everyone here..Shhhhhh)
Temptation
temp·ta·tion /tɛmpˈteɪʃən/
1. the act of tempting; enticement or allurement.
2. something that tempts, entices, or allures.
3. the fact or state of being tempted, esp. to evil. :evil:
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Fire away it's all good, I love coming here and learning better from others mistakes than my own.. :cheers:
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Jonny,
Ditch the single clamps for the throttle bodies to head mounting and run two clamps per cylinder.. and listen to those smarter than me (that would be about everyone here..Shhhhhh)
Point made.
THe only issue I have (or ever had) with having 2 clamps is the lip on the TBs is only about 1/4 wide. If I used a standard width clamp there would still be a section of the clamp that crossed over the TBs to the plenum....the same as I have now with the exception that there would be a clamp higher up as well.
Is it a common practice to re-use the very narrow ganged stock clamps?
Is there a narrow clamp that is commonly used for this?
Should I not worry if a section of the lower clamp is "crossing over"?
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Wurth have a narrow clamp.
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JH-
I use Breeze clamps, all stainless construction with a 5/16" band width. I use both sizes below depending on material/silicone hose used for plenum to T-Body.
PN Minimum " Minimum mm Max " Max mm
3732 1-15/16 49 2-1/2 64
3636 2-3/16 56 2-3/4 70
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Working the billet fuel rail blank:
(http://photos-579.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v364/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30170798_9588.jpg)
Finished multi-angle:
(http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v364/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30170800_312.jpg)
Secondaries in top:
(http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v364/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30170802_1041.jpg)
Front view:
(http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v364/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30170801_676.jpg)
-JH
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Parts arrived today!
50mm gate and T70 turbo
(http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30171915_3031.jpg)
I knew it was going to be big....I didnt relize how big until I opened the box!!
(http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30171916_3358.jpg)
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Parts arrived today!
50mm gate and T70 turbo
(http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30171915_3031.jpg)
I knew it was going to be big....I didnt relize how big until I opened the box!!
(http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30171916_3358.jpg)
Great!1
Now you can run over 250 at the next event ! !! :cheers:
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What's that about, a 2.5" inducer dia (bore in the middle)? If so, that's about a GT3788R size. Would be aimed at roughly a 2 liter engine at 9000rpm running 20PSI boost.
No MWE groove, but you aren't running it on the street, so no biggie. All it does is reduce surging at lower rpms.
Is that a blow-off-valve or a wastegate?
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Now you can run over 250 at the next event
(http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30171993_9775.jpg)
Maybe if I put the motor in this.
Only put about 400 miles on it this summer.
I keep tellin myself it would sure be easier to get this in and out of the trailer.
What's that about, a 2.5" inducer dia (bore in the middle)? If so, that's about a GT3788R size. Would be aimed at roughly a 2 liter engine at 9000rpm running 20PSI boost.
No MWE groove, but you aren't running it on the street, so no biggie. All it does is reduce surging at lower rpms.
Is that a blow-off-valve or a wastegate?
inducer is 2.7".
1.3L running 11K (15-30 psi) and making in the 600+HP range (I decided to go balls out).
No MWE, not running on street (about a 45' turing radi)
Its a gate, I dont think I will run a bov unless someone says I should.
-JH
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DOH! You even posted it was a wastegate, but I guess my reading skills need work.
How much was the gate?
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mcrat what size turbo would i need to fit on a 1000cc pushrod motor --i shift it now at 7000 rpm but would like to drop that to 6000 rpm --on gas it makes 80 hp --on nitrous it makes 112 hp --the motor is 10 to 1 compression --i figure i need around 120 hp in the blown gas class thanke willie buchta
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mcrat what size turbo would i need to fit on a 1000cc pushrod motor --i shift it now at 7000 rpm but would like to drop that to 6000 rpm --on gas it makes 80 hp --on nitrous it makes 112 hp --the motor is 10 to 1 compression --i figure i need around 120 hp in the blown gas class thanke willie buchta
Hijack in progress! :-D
If you make 80 on gas at sea level, 120hp will take you ~9PSI boost in thin air like Bonneville or El Mirage. So you want a wide map, and good low-pressure ratio performance. It will consume about 10lb of air a minute. If I was setting it up, I'd go with a GT1544 Garrett, wastegated. I don't think they are expensive, they are plain bearing with the wastegate built in, IIRC. If it's another brand, you are looking for a compressor inducer size of ~1.3". That charger size will pull hard from 3000 to 9000 with it's best efficiency at about 6000, assuming 8-10PSI boost.
IMO, your results may vary.
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thanks --sorry about the hijack --------willie buchta
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How much was the gate?
MSRP around 400$.
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0705_turp_synchronic_wastegate/index.html
Through all the BS they talk about with their different design the unit really does a good job (a friend has used these gates with great results) and has some advantages to other gates. There was a reason why I opted for this wastegate as apposed to a Tial or other.
I can change my boost settings without having to use a boost controller or use different springs.
To me, on the salt this may prove to be very helpful.
We will see.
-JH
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Willie, you can hijack my threads at any time.
If you or anyone has any questions relating to or about that may be helpful to you or others hijack away.
-JH
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ooh, you've done it now :-D When that thing kicks in it'll make your eyes go big. :-o
I think you'll need to rev it a bit more than 11K to get it into the island, that is a big compressor. The thing I didn't like, and still don't, is that the turbine is relatively small (compared to the compressor, compressor exducer 3.85", turbine inducer 2.89"), but that's my gut instinct, and I obviously haven't tried it.
With your old target I was guessing that you'd want a pr of 2.4, what are you looking at now, in the 3.5 area? :mrgreen:
Which exhaust housing did you go for?
I'll bet that wee turbo you had a speed week looks kinda silly now :-D
have fun, Andy
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How much was the gate?
MSRP around 400$.
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0705_turp_synchronic_wastegate/index.html
Through all the BS they talk about with their different design the unit really does a good job (a friend has used these gates with great results) and has some advantages to other gates. There was a reason why I opted for this wastegate as apposed to a Tial or other.
I can change my boost settings without having to use a boost controller or use different springs.
To me, on the salt this may prove to be very helpful.
We will see.
-JH
That looks like a great piece. Thanks for the link!
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the waste gate co makes fuel pressure regulators also---saw a presentation at SEMA 2 years ago
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this is going to be interesting...........
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Interesting… the word that comes to my mind is hilarious.!...
kr
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Kent, I pizz you off?
You got something to say, man up.
-JH
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one of the main things that is intresting about their fuel pressure systems compared to and electric Fuel pressure controler----not Near as subject to fuel rail Harmonics---virtually no seat chatter---affects emmisions more than any thing
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Jonny, how many cc's is your engine?
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Jonny, how many cc's is your engine?
Currently he is 1,299cc and has plans to take it out to 1,510 cc I think...
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if jonny takes it out to 1500 cc it is going to be real interesting........
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JH,
Invest in a BOV and install it before you realise you need it...oh and you may want to look at either a larger engine and or a smaller turbo as well... :wink:
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JH,
Invest in a BOV and install it before you realise you need it...oh and you may want to look at either a larger engine and or a smaller turbo as well... :wink:
Ok I'm trying to understand what you guys are hinting at as I'll be looking for a turbo for one of these sooner or later, so I'd appreciate comments on the following.
From formulas I have (not saying they are correct):
1500 cc with a PR of 2 at 11,000 rpm would need 37 lb/min and the T70 compressor will give you about 50 lb./min at a PR of 2, so with about 15 lbs. of boost a lot would have to go out the waste gate. Right or wrong?
1500 cc with a PR of 3 at 11,000 rpm would need 55 lb/min and the T70 compressor will give you about 60-70 lb./min at a PR of 3, so with about 30 lbs of boost it gets closer to being sized right. Right or wrong?
Next can the busa run at 30 lbs. of boost on the long course given the fact that you would be using an ice water intercooler?
Come on guys how about some specifics?
...... and thanks,
Sum
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This turbo is large but will work on a busa motor. I know several people running them, making good numbers (said to not spool until 7K but then it is supposed to come on very strong). I have 2-T3s and a T28
I am currently in negotiations for a 2JZ-GTE, depending on how this goes I will be using 2 T70s.
I opted for this turbo because of the motor(s) to come.
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http://www.hayabusa.com.au/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TC%5FEX%5FST&Show=TechSpecs
Same turbo
-JH
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http://www.hayabusa.com.au/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TC%5FEX%5FST&Show=TechSpecs
Same turbo
-JH
So you are showing us that the kit in the link uses a BOV and runs a plenum with a nice radius..?
JH,
The "several people" that you refer to as running the same turbo most likely have never set foot on a surface other than either asphalt and or concrete with that turbo..
I think you will have success with whatever you build I just see that you stated before you needed only to make a small amount of boost..then it was to go at speeds >250mph.?
I am sure you will run faster with the turbo than without however it is about engine size, plenum volume, turbo size/inlet temps etc..I know you know about this already however I look forward to your results like others just seems like a big ol turbo.. :-D
Are you going to run a water to air set up..? If so how big since you have more room in a car than on a bike...
J
PS. Tell "Pinky" hello...
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Is there a compressor map for this charger?
Running "too big" (is there such a thing?) a charger means you need watch out for compressor stall, "surging". Just a few seconds worth can destroy the charger. On the map, there is a surge line, and if you try to operate to the left of the line, you have big problem. It's not subtle, you'll know it when it happens. It usually rears it's ugly head just as the boost starts to climb. You'll feel the vibration and the sound will change dramatically, you need to downshift ASAP.
As long as your racing RPM range is all to the right of the line, no problem you can't drive around. But if you grab the next gear, and it surges as the RPM falls into the next gear, it will be hard to accelerate.
BOV's have uses, but peak boost control should be left to wastegates. Sure it will work, but you will run higher turbo wheel RPM, and you are wasting HP. Your drive pressure stays up and doesn't drop like a wastegate will. BOV's can be used to kill surging on shifting, aka "turbo bark", but won't stop surging at WOT at the low end of your RPM, only a different turbo setup or shot of nitrous will fix it.
I've learned what I know about turbos through trial and error using 19 different turbos (heavy on the error), but then again, it's a large displacement diesel engine, not a DOHC race engine. I'm never under 30psi, and I use big, mostly ungated chargers. So take what I post with a grain of salt, this is the interwebbythingy after all. :-D
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BOV?
DW
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BOV?
DW
Blow Off Valve to release the boost when the throttle is closed and to avoid damage to the compressor side of the turbo.
Dan it was great working with you at the special meet and also with the rest of the guys. Hope to do it again,
Sum
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some VERY successful folks have run that motor....near...at...and above 30 lbs boost
with a air to air........and done quite well........
jonny.........may the force be with you.....
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no nutz you havent pissed me off...i just think its funny when people go to the extreme side of things...
when i was road racing 50cc bikes i asked vesco for advise, he told me to put a 32mm carb on it....i pissed my pants laughing cuz the motor only had a 30mm bore....oh i won the nmra championship that year ('89)..... extreme can work... its just hilarious watching it happen :-D
kr
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Kent........you competing.....in the 50cc class..........hmm.......
hell....32 mm carb.......that was being conservative....with that much traction.....
now im getting to understand ......why you went into the fairing business.....
Kent....love ya man..... :-) :-D
and that 50 cc race.....remember these are your words......
""extreme can work... its just hilarious watching it happen""
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yep 80lbs ago..... its harder to make a slow bike go fast then it is to make a fast bike go fast....
kent
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(http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30178259_9420.jpg)
Almost done, have to turn the sides as well and drill and tap the fuel rail hold downs.
Based on advice here I added a "center post" inside the box. It is a .75 bar that ties the bottom and top section together.
Weighs allot more than I thought it would.
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.
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Given that most plenums are just boxes (not much directional flow aids, blah), isn't it easier to just make a shallow box with a flat (gasketed) top and use a large number of through-bolts passing top to bottom (obviously, a cube will have the sides/ends under high stress as well)? The obstruction of an 8mm screw body is pretty small, and you can locate them away from a direct line to the port entries?
I had given the though of making a bolt on top....would of made things easier to have the bolts pass through but its too late now, its all welded up and sealed.
No chances of loosing a bolt, no chances of blowing a gasket....no chances of ever getting inside of the plenum if there was some reason I needed too! (like wanting to add a bung or something!)
I hope it was the right thing to do.
-JH
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Question:
Should the boost guage and wastegate ports go into the plenum?
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Boost only gauge can , boost/ vac would be better on the throttlebody ports
Wastegate i prefer on the plenum, many bring it from the turbo or up pipe.
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Looks cool... :cheers:
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my bolt on cover is more for fishing out bits of piston :)
A question for you, are the main injectors on the engine, or plenum side of the butterfly? I'm thinking about whether you need one or two fuel pressure regulators/fuel systems.
What's the strategy for switching in the second injectors, do they run all the time, at certain boost, certain throttle angle, rpm, or once the main injectors reach a certain duty. Just interested really.
With the EFI, if you're using MAP mapping you want to use pressure between throttle and engine. With MAP and TPS you may want to use the plenum pressure.
For the fuel pressure your reference should be to where ever the injector sprays into (to maintain a constant fuel pressure across the injector).
You'll want your wastegate and boost controller to be from the plenum (well, turbo side of the throttle anyway), that way when you close the throttle the boost at the engine will drop.
If you fit a BOV the ref pipe goes between the throttle and engine.
Your boost gauge is probably more sensible between throttle and engine, but it's not that important either way, it just depends what you want to see. I like to see what the engine is seeing.
Hopefully that makes some sense, it may even spark up some discussion :)
Andy
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(http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30179473_1513.jpg)
In the top pic you will see the Ack in an early build stage.
I noticed that in the lower pic (some time after) they integrated a backfire valve to their plenums.
Is this something I should also consider doing?
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hutz
thats another feature of a BOV..... my turbo plenums all unbolt.... as fandango said its very handy to clean the crap out of it..... :-D
kent
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Intercoolers make good strainers.... :-D
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I thought that a copper up pipe would look sweet and the pre made fittings should flow very well and have many degree and radius options to snake it anywhere it needs to go. I have plenty of pipe to do the entire system from the turbo, through the intercooler and into the plenum. * I wouldn’t necessarily recommend anyone else using copper from a cost factor, I had a few 12'X2-1/8" sections lying around and figured it should be put to use…If I had to buy this pipe today I would be looking somewhere else.
Once I get the motor in car I will sweat the fittings and polish the pipes up. The motor in the pic is one of our backups and will soon be getting broken down to get it ready for big HP…..it is a bit dirty and looks bad but is nice to do pre fitment of the turbo stuff.
(http://photos-579.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30183681_2322.jpg)
(http://photos-579.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v352/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30183680_2013.jpg)
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jonny nice work --used what you had and it looks good too willie buchta
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Looks great! Now I have to gp engine turn something.
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JH,
If you run the pistons we "spoke" about it will raise the head mouting holes up about .070"-.080" from stock, keep that in mind when planning for the Turbo build..
J
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Is there a compressor map for this charger?
Running "too big" (is there such a thing?) a charger means you need watch out for compressor stall, "surging". Just a few seconds worth can destroy the charger. On the map, there is a surge line, and if you try to operate to the left of the line, you have big problem. It's not subtle, you'll know it when it happens. It usually rears it's ugly head just as the boost starts to climb. You'll feel the vibration and the sound will change dramatically, you need to downshift ASAP.
As long as your racing RPM range is all to the right of the line, no problem you can't drive around. But if you grab the next gear, and it surges as the RPM falls into the next gear, it will be hard to accelerate.
BOV's have uses, but peak boost control should be left to wastegates. Sure it will work, but you will run higher turbo wheel RPM, and you are wasting HP. Your drive pressure stays up and doesn't drop like a wastegate will. BOV's can be used to kill surging on shifting, aka "turbo bark", but won't stop surging at WOT at the low end of your RPM, only a different turbo setup or shot of nitrous will fix it.
I've learned what I know about turbos through trial and error using 19 different turbos (heavy on the error), but then again, it's a large displacement diesel engine, not a DOHC race engine. I'm never under 30psi, and I use big, mostly ungated chargers. So take what I post with a grain of salt, this is the interwebbythingy after all. :-D
I thought I was hard on shiznesel :-o! :-o You need and 6.0 Part's? :wink:
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Mr Nuts: what engine management will you be running on this setup? your build progress and pics are very cool!
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Mr Nuts: what engine management will you be running on this setup? your build progress and pics are very cool!
Thanks,
I use the piggy back Bazzaz FI self mapping injection controller and will likely be using MegaSqurit for the secondary injectors.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone have an idea on what size L to A intercooler I should use?
I see companies say "700 HP" or "1000 HP" but are these sizes based on cooling needs for normal ambient temps?
Because B-ville is already hot should I use an intercooler rated at a higher HP rating based on the already hot temps?
I am going to use a separate water tank with ice....no Co2 or dry ice.
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That would be my guess: heat rejection ~ D1^4 ÷ D2^4 in absolute temp, so the difference between 100° F ambient (actual) and 70° F (design) is (460+100)^4 ÷ (460+70)^4, or 983 ÷ 789, or 1.246.
Assuming equal efficiency, you need +25% capacity for the higher temperature.
The reduced air density at Bonneville also reduces efficiency, I would guess in direct propotion to the altitude, so roughly 29.92 (sea level) ÷ 25.64 (4,214 elevation) = 1.167.
If true, the combined factors total about +45%.
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Topic Summary
Posted on: Today at 09:45:28 AMPosted by: panic
Insert Quote
That would be my guess: heat rejection ~ D1^4 ÷ D2^4 in absolute temp, so the difference between 100° F ambient (actual) and 70° F (design) is (460+100)^4 ÷ (460+70)^4, or 983 ÷ 789, or 1.246.
Assuming equal efficiency, you need +25% capacity for the higher temperature.
The reduced air density at Bonneville also reduces efficiency, I would guess in direct propotion to the altitude, so roughly 29.92 (sea level) ÷ 25.64 (4,214 elevation) = 1.167.
If true, the combined factors total about +45%.
Whatever you get paid.....its not enough!
THanks
-JH
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yep gonna have to agree with ya on this one nutz.... so panic, you easily come up with all kinds of wild but usefull formulas, cool... some kinda hurt my gord... but do you actually use a slide rule for your day job?... i took a wild azz guess and got lucky on this one i put 2 1000hp intercoolers on my liner... kinda right in line with panics formula :-D
kent
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Is there a problem with going well overkill for the cooler.
For instance, lets say I use one that is rated at 2K HP....my real HP will never be over 650.
Because the intercooler is being fed from a water tank with ice is there any issues with running a cooler this much bigger (meaning the ice tank wont over cool the intake charge, even at 100% efficiency it wont cool more than the water in the tank).
just wondering if I should target a cooler in the 1000 HP range or is it ok to run one bigger than needed (looking for the future).
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Not an expert!! :-D!!! I would think your trade off might be some additional pressure drop (Maybe) but you should gain by having additional btu cooling reserve from the additionl mass that has been precooled. :-P how you feed the cooling water will be important.
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..............just wondering if I should target a cooler in the 1000 HP range or is it ok to run one bigger than needed (looking for the future)........
I think the advice you are seeking was there in the previous post.
......... i took a wild azz guess and got lucky on this one i put 2 1000hp intercoolers on my liner... kinda right in line with panics formula :-D
kent
The only thing to think about though is, are you going to make more HP than Kent is?
c ya,
Sum
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Quote from: Jonny Hotnuts on Today at 11:40:01 AM
..............just wondering if I should target a cooler in the 1000 HP range or is it ok to run one bigger than needed (looking for the future)........
I think the advice you are seeking was there in the previous post.
I see info about running a bigger compressor but not bigger intercooler.
The only thing to think about though is, are you going to make more HP than Kent is?
c ya,
Sum, come on!!!!
Suzuki Vs. Kawa?
No contest!
(joke Kent)
I dont know how much HP KR is making but I am building the motor for 6ish.
-JH
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....I see info about running a bigger compressor but not bigger intercooler................
Kent said:
i put 2 1000hp intercoolers on my liner
.....Sum, come on!!!!
Suzuki Vs. Kawa?
No contest!
(joke Kent)......................-JH
I thought I would let you say that since I'm having lunch with him this next week 8-) ,
Sum
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my 2p (that's UK pence)
Since you're running an icebox chargecooler the temperature and pressure at Bonneville is largely irrelevant (with respect to cooling).
However, the definition of an intercooler as 500hp, 1000hp, or whatever is spurious. The cooling requirement of an engine that makes 1000hp at 1psi is totally different to one that makes 1000hp at 45psi. I can only assume the rating is linked to a pressure drop at a certain flow, I don't know of any standard, so can't see how you can compare one manufacturer with another.
I think you need to tailor you questions to the supplier:
how many CFM will this thing flow with a 1psi pressure drop? (that should confirm the flow rating)
The air coming out of your turbo will be something like 200C, so you next question should be; given whatever CFM you expect to flow, and 5C water, 200C air, what will the temperature of the air leaving the intercooler be?
The downsides of too much intercooler will be down to size, weight, and to an extent lag (although I'd have thought that was less of an issue in LSR).
Andy
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That would be my guess: heat rejection ~ D1^4 ÷ D2^4 in absolute temp, so the difference between 100° F ambient (actual) and 70° F (design) is (460+100)^4 ÷ (460+70)^4, or 983 ÷ 789, or 1.246.
Just couldn't figure how you got 983 out of (560)^4. But since I greatly appreciate the formula and the technical insight, I struggled with it until I finalized realized you rounded off to the bazillionth place. Had to put my calculator under a sun lamp to get it charged up!! :wink:
Assuming equal efficiency, you need +25% capacity for the higher temperature.
The reduced air density at Bonneville also reduces efficiency, I would guess in direct propotion to the altitude, so roughly 29.92 (sea level) ÷ 25.64 (4,214 elevation) = 1.167. If true, the combined factors total about +45%.
I have seen days at Bonneville when the density altitude can be 10,000 ft. So the benefit of an ice water intercooler is tremendous. Too big is not necessarily a bad thing . . . however, the fuel can be too cool! You start to have problems with poor fuel atomization, fuel puddling, uneven burn, etc.
Jonny, if you want to oversize the intercooler (because of future engine applications) you should probably thermocouple both the intake and the outlet so you know what temps you are dealing with. You can controll the outlet temp in various ways. By oversizing the intercooler you will be saving dollars in the long run. So putting a few $$ into temp sensors will be money well spent. Overcooling is a big looser and recording and knowing your temps will prevent that from hapening.
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An afterthought: humidity has to affect IC efficiency?
Is D/A a better predictor than simply ATM?
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Re: "but do you actually use a slide rule for your day job"
Nope, civil servant c'etait moi. My last "day job" before retirement was rapping attorneys' knuckles at the Matrimonial Part of Supreme Court of New York County (your tax dollars at work). The building should look familiar, it's the set of many, many movies and TV shows.
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Too big is not necessarily a bad thing . . . however, the fuel can be too cool! You start to have problems with poor fuel atomization, fuel puddling, uneven burn, etc.
Do you have any experience of that happening with EFI? I'm wondering how cool the charge needs to be for this to cause a problem. I've had problems with carburettors and low temperature, but not noticed it with EFI. I'm not talking about sub zero (Celcius) though. I'd be surprised if you could get charge temperature as low as 10C, and I've competed with charge temps that low (helped by near zero ambients and relatively low boost).
Given 0C water (let's be optimistic) and 200C air, you'll need a 95% efficient intercooler (do they exist?) to get to 10C. Who wants to share what IAT they get with an icebox at ~2bar?
Mind, all this drivel is talking about on boost, idling and what have you the IAT will be very close to the water temp. None of my experience is LSR, so I'm listening and learning :)
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An afterthought: humidity has to affect IC efficiency?
Is D/A a better predictor than simply ATM?
D/A takes into consideration pressure and temperature. ATM is only pressure. 29.92" at 60F has far more air mass than 29.92 at 100F. Jetting and tuning is based on D/A. Humidity is not considered in D/A for racing. Don't know its affect on calculating IC efficiency. But dew point is another matter . . see next post.
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Do you have any experience of that happening with EFI? I'm wondering how cool the charge needs to be for this to cause a problem. I've had problems with carburettors and low temperature, but not noticed it with EFI. (snip . . .)
Given 0C water (let's be optimistic) and 200C air, you'll need a 95% efficient intercooler (do they exist?) to get to 10C. Who wants to share what IAT they get with an icebox at ~2bar?
A couple of points to consider. The phase change from a liquid to a gas, of both gasoline and methanol, is endothermic (absorbs heat). If charge air is too cool, it is quite easy to have 30F deg below zero, down stream of the injector or in the carb venturi (if blow through). Ask a local pilot about the dangers of carb icing.:-o Because of poor fuel vaporization you can get strange flame propagation, weird EGTs, etc. The second issue is dew point. If the temp in the IC is below the dew point for the day you will get condensation inside the IC and your intake passages! Don't minimize this. Consider the mass of air your compressor is putting through your engine compared to a unblown. Now multiply that by the relative humidity and it is not a trivial matter. You can get water everywhere and/or icing. So to answer your question. IC outlet temp of 65F-120F Deg seems to work just fine. YMMV :wink:
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This might sound crazy but why couldn’t you have a relay on the pump and an AIT to control the water flow in the intercooler.
Seems to me you could set a desired intake temp and the pump would move the water needed to keep that temp.
This way you could adjust the intake temperature to whatever you wanted.
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yep just another over thought trinket to possably go bad...keep it simple Jonny......really simple..... and you'll never have the buffet close before you get there...
kr
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JNuts, don't worry, your intake charge will never be too cold in a turbo motor. Intercooler efficiency can not ever be that good. Depending on your boost level, your 200 to 350 degree air temp will never get cold enough to cause intake icing at Bonneville... :| You just have to hope you can get it down to 100 degrees by the time it gets to the throttle plates. Keep it simple, any thermal control will be running wide open anyway.
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yep just another over thought trinket to possably go bad...keep it simple Jonny......really simple..... and you'll never have the buffet close before you get there...
kr
I didnt mean to imply that this is something I was considering...only that it could work.
I agree about keeping it simple and currently the car is not. This is something I need to work on.
JNuts, don't worry, your intake charge will never be too cold in a turbo motor. Intercooler efficiency can not ever be that good. Depending on your boost level, your 200 to 350 degree air temp will never get cold enough to cause intake icing at Bonneville... You just have to hope you can get it down to 100 degrees by the time it gets to the throttle plates. Keep it simple, any thermal control will be running wide open anyway.
-JH
This is good because I got offered a sweet deal on a PT 2400. I would not normally choose one this size but the deal is too good to pass up.
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/Precision_Turbo/Intercoolers/Intercoolers/Liquid_To_Air/7099
-JH
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This is good because I got offered a sweet deal on a PT 2400. I would not normally choose one this size but the deal is too good to pass up.
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/Precision_Turbo/Intercoolers/Intercoolers/Liquid_To_Air/7099
-JH
best get 2 just in case :D How big is that beast?
mount it water pipes up unless it has a bleed. Pump water into the air out end of the I/C.
With respect to keeping it simple I'd bin all the ECUs and fit one that does everything, one that you can plug a laptop in to remap, and see what all the inputs and outputs are doing, ideally with a logger built in.
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With respect to keeping it simple I'd bin all the ECUs and fit one that does everything, one that you can plug a laptop in to remap, and see what all the inputs and outputs are doing, ideally with a logger built in.
Andy as you know all too well something as small as a ground wire to the ecu caused 2 aborted runs and nearly a full day down.
I still dont completely understand why the engine would run perfectly in neutral and then go dead once it was put in gear but it was clearly the burnt spade on the primary ecu ground that caused the prob.
Unfortunately I dont know of a replacement for the stock ECU and the only way to really adjust them is through a piggy back injector controller.....and even thought there was a time that I was blaming the Bazzaz system it turned out to be something else.
Even worse is that I am going to have an additional box (megasqurit) to control the secondary injectors.
I am open for suggestions.
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All joking aside there is considerably more technology on that car then when to the moon.
Sad.
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ecu editor as discussed on SHOrg has a lot of potential for eliminating extra engine managers.
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Is there a problem with going well overkill for the cooler.
For instance, lets say I use one that is rated at 2K HP....my real HP will never be over 650.
Because the intercooler is being fed from a water tank with ice is there any issues with running a cooler this much bigger (meaning the ice tank wont over cool the intake charge, even at 100% efficiency it wont cool more than the water in the tank). just wondering if I should target a cooler in the 1000 HP range or is it ok to run one bigger than needed (looking for the future).
JNuts, don't worry, your intake charge will never be too cold in a turbo motor. Intercooler efficiency can not ever be that good. Depending on your boost level, your 200 to 350 degree air temp will never get cold enough to cause intake icing at Bonneville... :| You just have to hope you can get it down to 100 degrees by the time it gets to the throttle plates. Keep it simple, any thermal control will be running wide open anyway.
Stainless I agree with you if the IC is sized reasonably for the engine. However, you missed the point of my replies and Jonny's question that started a page back. He asked about running an IC that is 300% larger than his current engine needs; to save future costs if he goes up in engine size. If an 80% efficient IC is providing 100F deg temps, and it is resized 300% larger, you will definitely drop temps below ambient conditions. He asked "what if" and my reply was only about possible conditions to consider.
Jonny: you don't need to add complexity with a temp-modulator-thingie, as pointed out. You don't have to run ice water. You can start with warmer water. All you need to know is how many BTUs you are creating and for how long. So if you need 300 degree air, cooled to 100 degree, for 200 seconds, only enough water is needed to absorb that amount of BTUs. Knowing the specific heat of water calculate the starting temp, ending temp, and volume of water needed to absorb that amount of BTUs. Leave the line with those parameters (and confidence in your calcs :wink:) and you will have a good run.
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JNuts, the Plenum you are considering, what is the inlet and outlet size? Most 2K HP intercoolers have very large intake pipe sizes, whatever you do, don't do a lot of necking up and necking down from your turbo to your plenum.
Be sure to let us know if you get intake icing problems.... :roll:
,
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JH you definitely need to look into doing all your tuning thru your ecu. There is all the info and people to get you going on SH.org.
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saltfever, nope i gotta disagree with ya... increasing your intercooler 3x is not gonna lower your charge temp 3x... you will be able to pass 3x more air at reduced drag or pressure drop but the temp will stabilize at the tubes ability to dissipate the heat.... ambient temp doesn't have a really big deal in this equation either (and the crowd goes oooohhhh), look so ya tune the car in the shop at 85f and ya then go to bville and it 105f...20 deg, big deal especially when your new cooler drops the charge temp hundreds of deg.... below ambient? hopefully! below freezing? probably not! the only problem i see with a huge cooler is plenum volume. But hey were not drag racing here so a softer spool up is good just as long as is will come up to desired pressure... so heres how i size em up, take a Stanley 25' tape measure (the one with the chrome plastic case) and measure the size in the engine compartment.... then with the same Stanley tape, measure the size of your boost tubes, the next part is very time consuming...log on to ebay!.... i bought 2ea $1600 spear-co coolers from a Chinese import company for $250 each the sizing is what i needed but i had to cut the tanks off and re-weld 'em cuz i wanter my inlet on the front and the outlet on the back...no big deal cuz i saved $2500....good luck and stop overthinking things out....keep it simple...
Kent
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........ I am going to have an additional box (megasqurit) to control the secondary injectors.................
If I understand dieselgeek you could control all the injectors and the ignition with the megasquirt. Hopefully he will comment. I hope to use that approach.
c ya,
Sum
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you can definitely have megasquirt control the "whole thing" - it's come a long ways in the past couple years.
I'm still a fan of MS1 running the "Extra" code, which is loaded down with a ton of useful options.
The RPM limitations of the old megasquirt aren't really an issue, the version 3.0 (and later) circuit boards all have provisions for high resolution trigger wheels. The limitations for RPM aren't actually "RPM" but, how fast the hardware can "count" the pulses from whatever kind of input trigger that is used. The lowest resolution triggers, which are typically "one pulse per firing event" (distributor pickups, for example, or MSD crank triggers with 4 teeth) are the lowest speed, thus capable of incredibly high RPM... whereas higher count trigger wheels, like a 36-tooth "Ford EDIS" trigger wheel, will record 9 pulses for every firing event.
We run a 36-tooth wheel on an engine that sees 9000 rpm, that is the same as running a standard distributor on a v8 engine to 81,000 RPM. The limiting factor is, a combination of the hall sensor's maximum frequency (teeth counted per second) and there is also a limit in the circuit on the megasquirt itself, which I've never actually tested.
ON a high revving motorcycle engine, a good compromise would be an 8-1 or 12-1 trigger wheel on the crankshaft. YOu'd have no problem tracking RPM to whatever engine speed you need to.
I like high resolution trigger wheels, and running "wasted spark" because it lets you get rid of a distributor, which wastes a lot of energy with it's extra gap (between rotor and spark tower).
I'm always happy to help. Some "high tech" weenies like to poke fun at Megasquirt and it's DIY roots, but I've tuned it on cars and motorcycles that range from Jon Huber's 4-cylinder, 170 cid Mustang that runs an 8.80 quarter mile at 155mph on small tires, stock suspension - to GH's twin turbo big block chevy that holds the AA-BGALT record. It's a rock solid system with many people contributing to development and testing - it's got a ton of features and it's a great way to learn how EFI and engine management works.
-scott
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saltfever, nope i gotta disagree with ya... increasing your intercooler 3x is not gonna lower your charge temp 3x...
Nah . . . I never said charge temp would be lowered 3x. I said he wanted to increase the IC 3x. In my example the IC was running at 80% I never mentioned outlet temp. What I meant by “ambient” was on a typical Bonneville 100deg day you could get a discharge of less than the 100 deg “if” your IC was big enough. That is a big “if” and I agree with you it would be rare, but it is doable. I didn’t mean ambient was influential on IC performance.
. . . you will be able to pass 3x more air at reduced drag or pressure drop but the temp will stabilize at the tubes ability to dissipate the heat....
You hit on the key to this discussion and that is to increase the size of the IC. Aluminum has a Thermal Conductivity Value (CTV). It is the time it takes for heat to conduct through the material. (silver is best and aluminum is forth). As long as there is a delta t, heat will flow from hot to cold. If the tube is not transferring heat as you indicated, that means (1) there is either no delta T (the water is the same temp as the tube) or (2) the charge air BTUs exceed the CTV equation (see below). We will assume the water will always be colder than charge air, fairly constant ice water, and of sufficient quantity. So the only way to transfer more BTUs into the water (lower the air temp) is to add more area of material. That means if you make it big enough you can lower the air temp to the water temp. I’m not saying you want it that cold or even if you want a huge IC to package; but you can get 350 deg air to 32F if you want to. By going to copper construction, NOS or dry ice, the IC could be quite small. Using LN would be even smaller, but ridiculous.
The equation used to express heat transfer by conduction is known as Fourier's Law and is expressed as:
q = k A dT / s (1)
where
q = heat transferred per unit time (W, Btu/hr)
A = heat transfer area (m2, ft2)
k = thermal conductivity of the material
(W/m.K or W/m.oC, Btu/(hr oF ft2/ft))
dT = Temperature difference across the material (K or oC, oF)
s = material thickness (m, ft)
. . . when your new cooler drops the charge temp hundreds of deg.... below ambient? hopefully! below freezing? probably not!
If using ice water you can’t get below freezing. :-)
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"If using ice water you can’t get below freezing."
You can get below 32F by adding salt to the ice. Remember the old ice cream makers? Now where could you find salt....?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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As you increase the size of and intercooler you reduce the velocity of the air going thru the intercooler tubes and if the velocity gets to low the flow can change from turbulent to laminar and the efficiency of the intercooler drops big time. The air flow thru the intercooler tubes must be turbulent to be efficient. So bigger, bigger still and really big may not be the best parameter to pick your intercooler size.
Rex
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yep thats why my tape measure sizing formula works so well...
kent
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As you increase the size of and intercooler you reduce the velocity of the air going thru the intercooler tubes and if the velocity gets to low the flow can change from turbulent to laminar and the efficiency of the intercooler drops big time. The air flow thru the intercooler tubes must be turbulent to be efficient. So bigger, bigger still and really big may not be the best parameter to pick your intercooler size. Rex
That is quite interesting, Rex. My understanding of fluid systems is that turbulence decreases efficiency. We see that in port work by increasing the short side radius, NACA duct entrance designs, duct taping of body seams and cracks (where legal), turning vanes in hydraulic systems, all designed to promote laminar flow and decrease turbulence. Maybe your point is that turbulence in the tubes helps to transfer the heat. I don't know enough about the phenomena you describe. Your point is very interesting and I would like to learn a lot more about the approach. I'm not trying to be adversarial here but am really interested in learning more. Can you point me to some kind of reference or maybe applications where you got that information. If it is a thermodynamics 101 treatise, I'll take a pass. But if it is spelled out in "racer tech talk" I would enjoy reading it. PM if you want to go off-list. Many thanx. :-)
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"If using ice water you can’t get below freezing."
You can get below 32F by adding salt to the ice. Remember the old ice cream makers? Now where could you find salt....?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
LOL! Good one, Neil :-D
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Posts: 69
Re: Turbo plenum
« Reply #145 on: November 05, 2008, 09:23:18 PM » Quote
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Quote from: Rex Schimmer on November 05, 2008, 07:25:19 PM
As you increase the size of and intercooler you reduce the velocity of the air going thru the intercooler tubes and if the velocity gets to low the flow can change from turbulent to laminar and the efficiency of the intercooler drops big time. The air flow thru the intercooler tubes must be turbulent to be efficient. So bigger, bigger still and really big may not be the best parameter to pick your intercooler size. Rex
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That is quite interesting, Rex. My understanding of fluid systems is that turbulence decreases efficiency. We see that in port work by increasing the short side radius, NACA duct entrance designs, duct taping of body seams and cracks (where legal), turning vanes in hydraulic systems, all designed to promote laminar flow and decrease turbulence. Maybe your point is that turbulence in the tubes helps to transfer the heat. I don't know enough about the phenomena you describe. Your point is very interesting and I would like to learn a lot more about the approach. I'm not trying to be adversarial here but am really interested in learning more. Can you point me to some kind of reference or maybe applications where you got that information. If it is a thermodynamics 101 treatise, I'll take a pass. But if it is spelled out in "racer tech talk" I would enjoy reading it. PM if you want to go off-list. Many thanx.
I have given this some thought and Rex could be correct.
In my thinking laminar flow boundary layer and its lack of contact with the sides of the exchanger could in fact lower the efficiency of the cooler vs. turbulent. I am not certain if this is the backbone of Rexs statement but only that there is the possibility (at least in my head!) that this is plausible.
I would have doubted this due to the effects of a drastic temperature drop from one end of the core to the other causing the air to contract and resulting in any disruption of laminar flow but this is just a speculation and honestly Rex may in fact be correct.
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I now have a BOV, and powder coated it to match the valve cover.
Is there a better location to put the BOV?
Should the BOV be before the intercooler and as close to the compressor as possible?
I have seen many installs where it is on the plenum itself.
Just wondering if there is a better place to mount it.
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I would think you would want the BOV as close the the plenum as possible. If the piping has a curve I would put it on the outside of the bend---due to possible wave hormonics.
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Regarding Rex's posting 143 above.
Jonny, It could be that I am musunderstanding Rex's posting. It is fundamental physics (Bernoulli) that as pressure decreases velocity increases up until the point of turbulence. At that point there is no further increase in velocity and the system becomes inefficient. According to Bernoulli turbulence prevents flow. However, we are discussing heat transfer or a thermodynamic system. As you suggest Rex's point could be that turbulence promotes heat transfer. I don't know. I would imagine that laminar flow provides the greatest contact with the tube wall and aids heat transfer even though there is a stagnet layer attached to the wall on any laminar flow system. I suspect it assists in heat transfer. But as I said, I'm not clear on Rex's intent and would like to know more. Rex's postings are high quality and value and I suspect I am missing out on good information.
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I would think you would want the BOV as close the the plenum as possible. If the piping has a curve I would put it on the outside of the bend---due to possible wave hormonics.
If the intent of the BOV is to release potential energy to prevent compressor stall it would seem to me that the closer the BOV was to the turbo would be more effective. If in the case that you have a large amount of volume between the turbo and the throttle plates (this would be my case with a giant intercooler and lots of piping) there would be a few seconds (depending on how big the BOV was) before the compressor would stop seeing forward pressure after the BOV opened.
I am not saying you are wrong Sparky…..just wanting to figure it out in my head.
Anyone ever hear of running 2 BOVs…one on the plenum and one near the compressor?
Also, check out this sweet BOV mod.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1OQCK0YYTg
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John and Saltfever,
If the air is going thu the intercooler tubing in a laminar state then you have a boundary layer against the tube surface which at the molecular level means that the air molecule that is in actual contact with the tube wall is going very slow to not moving at all and as you go toward the center of the tube the velocity increases but the molecules are still lined up one behind the other in a nice laminar flowing column of air and the only molecules that can transfer their heat to the tube walls are the ones that are next to it and the ones flowing down the center never get the chance to drop their heat load because they never touch the tube wall. So John you are right that you want the air to be turbulent which means the molecules are in very random movement and continually hitting the tube wall and giving up heat.
In this case turbulence is your friend.
Rex
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Thanks, Rex. Interesting and good explanation. :-)
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The only walls that I've ever seen that were straight on an intercooler were water passages, the air passages are similar to a normal radiator.
JL222
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Jhonny,---the air pressure has to spike in the plenum first and the bend----then as the compressor keeps delevering more air---the increasing pressure wave is going to have to back up to the compressor--the high pressure can't start at the compressor first as it has lower pressure volume downstream. We have not addressed the volicity and its sudden stopping that is going to start raising the pressure when it is forced to stop.
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Well the deal has been finalized.
I was able to get a good condition used Precision Turbo PT-2400.
It’s rated at 2400 HP (really about 1400 more HP rating than I need).
The thing goes for around 2500$....lets just say that I couldnt get a 1000 HP intercooler for what I paid for it!
Based on Rexs and others advice I will look into making a restrictor plate that I can block some of the core....that or put tiny vortex generators in front of each air passage!
Also:
Sparky.....
Im putting the BOV in the plenum.....thanks for the advice!
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Good choice on the intercooler, the formula 1 turbo cars ran big intercoolers one on each side on some.
Going from 70 degrees to 100 at bville is way more than 30 degrees when your compressing air.70 degrees 30psi at 14.73atm and 75% compessor efficiency is 327 degrees. [100 degrees.14.73psi=372 degrees]
100 degrees 30psi 12.73psi [bville lower pressure and more pressure ratio to get 30 psi] is 404 degrees or 77 degrees hotter not 30. Spearco on their web site rates their intercoolers at 400 degrees.
Sometimes mounting the blowoff valve comes down to the most convenient place,we have ours mounted on the pipe before the intercooler and on the old system on the intercooler box because we didn't have room anywhere else as soon as the throttle closes it senses a vacuum and vents the air and pressure instantly.
Do you have to run a bov on turbos? We do on our centrifugals because of the direct drive. I think they use them on turbos to keep the turbo spinning when off the throttle.I don't think bovs were around for the formula 1
cars and their are a lot of turbo cars that don't use them.
Good luck JL222
P.S. Anybody can figure boost temps if you had Hugh MacInnes's book [TURBOCHARGERS] by HPBooks
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Jonny---sorry about misspelling your name--- :oops: I will try to pay better attention :-P
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Do you have to run a bov on turbos? We do on our centrifugals because of the direct drive. I think they use them on turbos to keep the turbo spinning when off the throttle.I don't think bovs were around for the formula 1
cars and their are a lot of turbo cars that don't use them.
You car correct that you dont have to run a BOV for a turbo vehicle.
You are also correct that it keeps the turbo spinning.
When the throttle is released the motor stops making exhaust....so the driving force to the turbine is suspended. Because the throttle is closed and the engine is no longer accepting pressure and nothing is driving the turbine, all the pressure made by the turbo during WOT now tries to force the turbo to run backwards and can result in a broken turbo.
The BOV is supposed to give you a performance advantage by allowing the turbo to spool quicker after you hit the gas again. My reason is only to prevent compressor surge and hopefully a turbo that doesnt break.
(I have WOT clutchless shifting, the BOV wont open unless there is a problem or at the end of the run).
Posted by: SPARKY
Insert Quote
Jonny---sorry about misspelling your name--- I will try to pay better attention
No worries Sparkie!!!
LOL
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Something else you could do with a BOV is to direct the output of the BOV back into the exhaust in front of the turbine. As apposed to venting to atmosphere the energy created and lost could be used to maintain higher turbo RPMs and improve lag times between shifts.
I have never heard of this being done.... but it should work.
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Jnuts, the BOV also prevents boost spikes, when you close the throttle, that turns down the fuel, but does not immediately stop boost, boost actually rises unless released by the BOV. Higher boost and less fuel, want to venture a guess what happens next... Don't be concerned with turbo lag in LSR, be concerned with intake temps, boost levels and A/F ratio... oh, and have fun... :cheers:
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Something else you could do with a BOV is to direct the output of the BOV back into the exhaust in front of the turbine. As apposed to venting to atmosphere the energy created and lost could be used to maintain higher turbo RPMs and improve lag times between shifts.
I have never heard of this being done.... but it should work.
World rally car stuff
add some fuel and turn the turbo into a turbine for a second , turbo maintains its speed during gear changes...
hard on the exhaust turbine and not practicle in LSR but sounds cool...
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It was just thinking out loud.
Wasnt considering doing it.
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World rally car stuff
add some fuel and turn the turbo into a turbine for a second , turbo maintains its speed during gear changes...
hard on the exhaust turbine and not practicle in LSR but sounds cool...
Was this the reason I remember some turbo race cars shooting flames out the exhaust when shifting?
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I hope I can add a little helpful info here.
Rex- you are rite about there needing to be turbulence to have intercooler eff. Most if not all good intercoolers have inside the tubes little air trips called turbulators that do just as you surmised, they break up the laminar flow which increases the eff. of the core.
The eff. of a core has to do with how well they balance the shape and amount of the turbulators which equals either better cooling or less pressure drop through the core.
J.H. - as far as the blowoff valve is concerned Sparky is rite on. In most auto applications you install it between the intercooler and the throttle body.
As far as having 2 blowoff valves you won't need that unless you are making over 850 hp to the wheels.
Also I would not try to vent the blowoff into the exhaust unless you want some cooked parts. If anything you can vent the blowoff back into the intake.
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(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v378/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30201842_8341.jpg)
Here is the BOV mounted.
The unit is a HKS, even though this is a very popular and well respected unit I cant say I am real crazy about the construction. Seems cheap and the little chrome plastic section in the front is to give it that "High School kids Civic sweet bov whistle sound" is duke.
I powder coated the housing to match the valve cover and removed the casting marks.
I feel better about it now.
Also I would not try to vent the blowoff into the exhaust unless you want some cooked parts. If anything you can vent the blowoff back into the intake
THis concept would have to be worked out and the use of conventional units would not be acceptable.
You would need something more on the lines of a wastegate (valving for heat) and a way to make sure the pressure being vented was higher then the pressure in the exhaust.
This was just an idea...nothing more.
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I think the HKS SSBOV is designed more for it's noise than it's function.
btw, there is more than enough anecdotal evidence that a BOV slows down pickup after a gearchange, although that may not always be the case. I wouldn't take it as read that a BOV=better post shift pickup.
Andy
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As far as blow off valves go I would only use a Tial. You may be space limited and a Tial is a much larger unit, but it is much higher quality.
Just some info here- If anyone goes with the smaller Tial wastegates and you intend to run racegas get the wastegate that is compatible, or if you have one already call Tial up and order a new valve that is safe with racegas, it's not hard to change.
The reason you need this valve is the standard one may stick causing no boost or no boost control = kaboom.
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Is there a reason I see most turbo plenums made from aluminum rather than steel?
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randy
if your thinkin turbo Harley... you should use black cast iron sewer pipe then it would match the looks of your cylinders. :-o
kent
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randy
if your thinkin turbo Harley... you should use black cast iron sewer pip then it would match the looks of your cylinders. :-o
kent
lmfao :-o
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randy
if your thinkin turbo Harley... you should use black cast iron sewer pip then it would match the looks of your cylinders. :-o
kent
Kent,
Put down the "pip" and and go back to building the electric bike..I need another bike to ride this weekend... :-D
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whats a "pip"?
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whats a "pip"?
I think he meant pipe..........
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whats a "pip"?
I think he meant pipe..........
I was copying what Kent posted... :mrgreen:
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OK, let me ask this again since this is a thread about turbo plenums...Is there a reason I see most turbo plenums made from aluminum rather than steel?
BTW...kent, I'm not using axtell cylinders. :?
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This was sorta discussed earlier.
A flat sided pressure vessel can develop an unreal amount of pressure per square inch. So much pressure that it can split a plenum. The thickness of the material used in the plenum gives it more structural stiffness. A comparable thickness of steel would definitely start to add massive weight. My plenum currently is deceptively heavy, much more than I thought it would be, and it is made of ¼” 5052 aluminum plate. If this same plenum was made from like steel it would weigh (est) 30 pounds (its like 16 now).
Steel would be fine if you were going to make a rounded plenum….its the flat surfaces you need to worry about!
I hear of guys using things like 3.5” exhaust pipe with a thick base plate for busa plenums and they should work.
BTW:
Here is where I got my fuel rail blanks and also have a bunch of pre made stuff for building your own plenum, including pre cast plenum sections, bells, injector bungs and just about anything you need to make a plenum for anything in a few hours. I would of used a bunch more of this stuff if I knew about them before I started!!!
My order from these guys was perfect and I would recommend them.
http://www.rossmachineracing.com/
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Thanks for the info JH, I appreciate the response.
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First plenum i built for my busa was steel, worked fine, you can get similar strength with much thinner material compared to aluminium so in the end steel can be only a little heavier. i think the main reason aluminium is used on a basic plenum is cosmetic. more complicated designs with intercoolers attached need the aluminium more to join to .
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The steel vs. aluminum argument is about 75 years old: "aluminum is stronger than steel, pound for pound", but that's tensile strength, and not for the same material volume. An aluminum piece can have the same strength with some weight saving, but it must be larger.
Resistance to an explosion is strength (although shape deformation during the 1st few microseconds will localize stress, and the local intensity will be higher in steel).
There's an advantage to aluminum in that the (required) larger material thickness permits threads where steel would be too thin.
For stiffness, steel is the only choice - for the same length or thickness or diameter (your choice) the Young's modulus of steel (any) is about 3 times as high as aluminum: 30 vs. 10 (× 10^6). The steel piece can be 1/3 the size with the same thickness or length, and considerably smaller (ooppss- corrected) diameter.
Vizard cautions against aluminum in favor of steel for intake parts due to heat transfer - but that's for an underhood environment where the ambient may exceed 180° F. Much less a concern with LSR. Possible exception where the plenum's charge temp is much higher than ambient, since it will cool slightly by radiation and convection and should be flat black. Any intake plumbing that goes near the exhaust or exhaust wash should be steel, plated, coated or painted a light color, and wrapped!
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Stiffening ribs work well to minimize deflection while keeping weight down-- whether aluminum or steel.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Yup - small fabricated triangular box sections weighing almost nothing can be very helpful.
Some commercial aluminum surplus and remnant extrusions like this (1 X 1 X 1" triangle sold by the foot) can be simply pop-riveted from inside a panel.
Since the width of the panel is the weak point, the rib need not be full length, I suspect there's good math for how long is minimum for good effect but I'm sure even 2/3 is very good (centered in the unsupported span).
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(http://photos-d.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v378/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30213675_8502.jpg)
LOOK WHAT ARRIVED TODAY!!!!! :-D
A presision Turbo PT-2400 intercooler. The guy I got this from said that it once belonged to Cruz Pentragon on a turbo project drag car he owned.
The intercooler is in very good shape and the inlets are so big that if I wanted to put a restrictor (as discussed earlier) to speed the air through the core it would be really easy.
This was purchased on Ebay.....got it for much less than what its worth, sometimes you get lucky that way (I have had some bad luck as well).
-ALSO-
For whatever reason I keep getting myself in trouble with my wife by photographing parts in the kitchen. I always get rid of the evidence before she gets home but somehow she always finds out…..again I never learn!
-JH
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hey...if she can have nice granite countertops.....
you can have an intercooler thingy......
besides your stuff is used off ebay, hers was new
and really expensive...
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I can relate to that. I get a new "thingies" :roll: for my my bike and she gets a new kitchen.
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Shoot you guys got off lucky i had to redo the whole house!
Cheaper than a divorce :-) then again just about everything is cheaper than the big D.
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Yup
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Really nice cutting board, Jonny. What are you going to do with that ugly lunch box! :-D
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You guys have no idea how accurate you are. We purchased a house about 3 years ago on the court house steps. The house should have been demoed, the house was destroyed...no room in the house was livable, full of bullet holes and drug needles stuffed in holes kicked in walls. For whatever reason at the time I thought it would be a piece of cake to do. 3 years later I am still working Packard near every weekend on doing something. The only good that came from this is that we purchased it for 80 and it recently appraised for just over 400, still doesn’t feel like enough after all I have had to do and still need too!
Before:
(http://photos-d.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v378/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30214571_2003.jpg)
Just got through knocking out the wall behind the sink and am now tearing up the old counter/ cabinets.
After:
(http://photos-f.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v378/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30214573_2951.jpg)
(note the hole in the wall by the door, still the same and one of my honey doos!)
Floor:
(http://photos-e.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v378/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30214572_2657.jpg)
This is the floor where I had to cut a 5'X24" hole in to lower a new oil tank after filling the old tank with 275 gallons of heating oil and finding it had a pee stream leak. The previous owners started to do excavation on the outside to access the foundation. I had assumed that it was to add outside access to the basement. I know now what it was for.....thankfully the floor before this was 4 layers of nasty vinyl flooring.
Every weekend I am working on some project of this house....its getting better now but there is still so much to do.
BTW:
The granite counters only set me back about 1200$ (not so bad for 3-8' sections and backsplashes).....the tools to work the granite....thats another story!
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Wow J !!!!
Wanna come to my house?!! I'm kinda tired of my 1922 kitchen!! (house)!! Yours looks fantastic!!
Lynda
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Johnny,
That is an INTERCOOLER!!!! Just the mass of it alone would probably cool you turbo outlet charge for a couple of minutes! The fabrications does show that the fabricator has pretty big respect for high pressure on large flat panels.
Like your house too.
Rex
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Johnny,
I need a recomendation for a fuel pump. I will run thus car in the spring at Maxton with a stock Hayabusa, later it will be turbo charged. I was considering buying the in line pump recommended by Velocity for there Stage 1 turbo and with a pressure regulator I could serve both purposes, but is that a good idea? What did you use and what would you recommend? What fuel pressure did you run normaly aspirated?
Thank you for the help,
Bruce Harmon
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Bruce, we are using a Walbro, the other option is the Bosch. I would suggest finding one with threaded ends so that you can put AN fittings on it and not use a clamped rubber hose.
Word of experience, supply more electricity than required, under load these can draw 20+ amps, so use large supply wires. We had an issue squeezing all the little electrons through too small of a hole.... :-o
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Bruce, we are using a Walbro, the other option is the Bosch. ............. :-o
I went with the Bosch after it was noted that other racers commonly have these, so the idea of a spare appealed to me. In anticipation of EFI on my truck I also put one on my truck this past spring and it is the same pump, pre-filter and post filter I'm using on the lakester. I carry the lakester pump with me in the pickup as a spare in case I would need one on a trip. I got my pumps and filters from these guys.....
http://www.jayracing.com/
......... they had good prices and sent it right away.
I also considered the Walbro and it looked like a good pump also, I just liked the Bosch for my pickup as I put a lot of miles on it.
c ya,
Sum
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Both the Bosch 44 and Walbro are lightweight, good pumps and compact in size.
This makes them very desirable for bike applications.
If the motor is going in a busa powered vehicle (non bike) you have a much larger range of pumps to choose from.
We used a Mallory 4060FI
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MAA%2D4060FI&N=700+400249+115&autoview=sku
WIth a Mallory 4305M fuel pressure regulator
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MAA%2D4305M&N=700+400249+115&autoview=sku
This pump is something you would never see on a bike but worked very well for our 1507 motor.
We ran stock injectors @ 55-60 psi. We did have a lean condition and was the reason I didnt put the car out again to qualify on the long (and to really see what it would do) and we have attributed this to running low voltage to the fuel pump (everything runs on batteries). To correct this problem we are going to use 16v batteries next year.
Also.....
60 psi is maxing out the duty for our current pump and will be using the Aeromotive 11101 this coming SW.
(http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/aei-11101_w_m.jpg)
I will make you a sweet deal on the Mallory pump and regulator or I have a Walbro pump that we are not going to use. If you are interested let me know…if not they will make fine back up pumps incase the Aeromotive stops working.
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If you are going to run EFI----put an alt. on it ---you will never regrett it
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That aeromotive is hungry for electrons too, had one on my bike for a while , actually wore my regulator out, pump supplies 8 lit/min and the bike needed 2 lit/min , charging system couldn't keep up with the demand , went back to a bosch 044.
kept the aeromotive pump in case i try methanol.
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Thank you to everyone for your input as always I have learned a lot more then I expected. Johnny I may take you up on your offer to buy your Mallory pump and regulator, please email details to BHarmon77@yahoo.com. I now have (2) stock Hayabusa batteries in the car wired for 12V to the system, it sounds like this may not be enough battery for these fuel pumps? Or is it just a matter of wire size?
BHarmon
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You could consider each battery for separate duties, that might help you cause if you are not running an alternator. Any reason you are not running a large automotive battery? (ballast) As we found wire size to get the power to the pump is important. The pump went to the pressure the electricity would support, no higher. With everything else running that number was a little shy of the target so we ran only as fast as the A/F ratio would allow.
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Stainless,
I have room for a large automotive battery. No reason that I cannot switch, I first figured that if it was good enough for the bike it would work in the car. Now I know better, thank you for the help.
Bruce Harmon
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This is something to consider:
The stock hayabusa stator puts out 400 watts @ about 14v.
(even a "high output" stator is only making 500 watts @ 13v).
This is plenty for the bike.
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My logic last year was to use 2 optima yellows (800cca deep) and charge them before each run with a massive battery charger I have (it came from a truck shop charging about 20 batteries at once).
The problem is that if you charge a battery(s) @ 12 volts (usually a good charger will put out like 12.75) the battery at rest is only at best 12 volts (often 11.5-11.75v) but as soon as you turn on a big draw item the voltage goes to poop. This is like turning the ignition on in your car and watch the volt meter when you turn on the lights. Even though we had 2 batteries as soon as everything was on, the voltage dropped to around 10 volts and maintained. We could of likely maintained this amount of draw for a few hours with the 2 batteries but the voltage was lower than what was needed to spin the water pumps (2X), fuel pump, air compressor and ignition.
We noted that when everything was on when we hooked up the battery charger the pump motors would spin much faster. This should have been a clue that we would have a problem of some sort. And because the stock busa stator only makes 400 watts output this would be the equal to trying to fly a 747 with a RC motor....it just doesn’t have enough to run all the stuff or at worst it would smoke. (because voltage goes to point of least resistance the stator would TRY to power everything even if you have 10 batteries, the stator would try and make higher than 12v....this is why it would make the attempt).
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It is this reason that I will run 16 volts next year.
What will happen is that battery will be charged to 16 but as soon as everything is turned on it will immediately drop a few volts (I assume to around 14v). I anticipate that it should not have any problems in maintaining voltage <12v through the 5 miles.
But....at least as far as I can see it....
It is far better to start with 16v....loose 4 in the run and be at 12v at the end of a run as apposed to
starting with 12....loose 4 and ending with 8v at the end of the 5 (and at the 5th is where the greatest draw is on the system with high RPM and most fuel being needed).
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Sparky mentioned using an alternator.....I am toying with the idea....but it seems like a problem to hook on up to the busa motor!
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You sure about those voltages? I've got it in mind to expect 13.8V minimum from the charger going into the battery, with something in the low 14's more like it. And the voltage of a standard wet cell is 2.1 volts, so your battery really should have 12.6 volts showing at rest (assuming fully charged so the load of the voltmeter doesn't draw it down, and a voltmeter won't draw much current so if the meter does draw down the voltage -- you've got a funky battery). ANyway, the 13.8 and 12.6 numbers are what I used in the day when I was doing lots of ham radio stuff in the cars -- and had to know what I'd get to build the corect stuff.
I assume the Optima batteries are similar in voltage characteristics to traditional lead-acid.
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what kind of aircompressor are you powering during the run
and why...??
and that motor makes upwards of 600hp + with one water pump...
why do you need to power 2..?......
and additionally that motor
can make near all that power all day long...making 13.5 volts plus
with the stock charging system....and one little motorcycle battery...
curious ...Joe :)
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what kind of aircompressor are you powering during the run
and why...??
and that motor makes upwards of 600hp + with one water pump...
why do you need to power 2..?......
and additionally that motor
can make near all that power all day long...making 13.5 volts plus
with the stock charging system....and one little motorcycle battery...
curious ...Joe
1. compressor = Viair http://www.viaircorp.com/
This runs the air shifter and pulls a pin that removes the left side lateral head restraint (also has manual pull)
2. The stock WP is removed for chain routing. I have a water tank for cooling and over 25' of 1.25" copper piping with a 3' raise. One pump runs water from the tank to the back of the car, the other pump pushes it through the motor. The system was designed by an engineer from Meziere. http://www.meziere.com/ (IMO the finest electric water pump available).
3. Again, the stock stator makes a mere 400 watts output that’s it.
This means that 400 watts output makes about 29 amps @ 13.5v.
The water pumps I use draw about 22 amps total (11 each)….this leaves about 7 amps to power the ECU, fuel pump, fans, or whatever else you have. It just isn’t enough.
If you try and run much more than a few lights I can promise you will:
A- make low voltage
or
B- Smoke a rectifier or stator.
-JH
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yo nutz
im running 2 motors, 2 starters, 2 ecu's, 2 ignitions, 2 sets of coils, 2 kinsler fuel pumps, 2 meziere w/pumps, 1 shureflow w/pump and 1 viair airpump, 1 data aq all off of 2 cheep napa batteries... no alternator and 1 can go 1 whole race weekend without recharge......i suspect thet your battery supply cable is too small...step up to 2/0 cable
kent
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Johnny,
Don't know if you have any experience with this problem, but my car is a front engine Hayabusa, shaft drive. I have removed the sprocket and replaced it with a drive shaft adapter, this eliminated the speed sensor and the speed sensor rotor on the sprocket. Can you run the motor without the speed sensor? If not is there a way to relocate it or wire around the problem?
Bruce Harmon
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Johnny,
Don't know if you have any experience with this problem, but my car is a front engine Hayabusa, shaft drive. I have removed the sprocket and replaced it with a drive shaft adapter, this eliminated the speed sensor and the speed sensor rotor on the sprocket. Can you run the motor without the speed sensor? If not is there a way to relocate it or wire around the problem?
Bruce Harmon
I do not run a speed sensor, no problems.
Bill
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Bill beat me to it!
Only drawback is that the speedo wont work.
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Bruce, we agree, haven't used the speed sensor on the busa motor in the Bockscar. The sensor output is not a requirement for the ECU to run the motor properly.
JNuts, speedometer? The busa speedo is grossly inaccurate above 130 anyway, and since the wheels and gearing are different it doesn't matter... :|
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really.?.!.... are you using a 16 bit or 32 bit ecu? are ya using some kind of TRE?
kent
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Thank you to everyone who replied, if I do not need the speed sensor then that is good news, actualy with a night to sleep on it I was concerned that the speed sensor might be where the computer picks up engine RPM that is used to control ignition timing? The wiring harness and motor are 2006, I was told that this is an upgraded ECU? 16 or 32 bit I don't know? What is a TRE?
Bruce Harmon
7077 H/BFL
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Almost forgot I am using a very good on line service manual that is for 1999-2003 Hayabusa's; www.manualz.info/Manuals_pdf/SUZUKI/GSX1300R_Hayabusa_Service_Manual_1999-3003.pdf. After reading page7-20 of this manual I see that the computer gets engine RPM from the crankshaft position sensor. Learn something new every day!
Bruce Harmon
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BH, The 2003 and later are the 32 bit I think. The last motor I bought was a 2003 and it took me a day of troubleshooting to figure out why it would start, run a little, sputter and stop. The crank sensor is on the outside of the Alternator rotor. there are a lot more divots in the 32 bit rotor, we use the 16 bit ECU :-o The TRE Kent mentioned is a resistor that tells the ECU the gear position indicator is in 5th all the time. The lower gears have different timing curves and the top speed limiter is not in play in 5th.
Yes, we have gear position locked, found we had better acceleration in the lower gears with a TRE (the old fashioned way, we ran both ways). :wink:
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You will want to run some sort of TRE to de-limit the motor.
The motor is limited to 180 mph (2001-2008) [99 and 00 were not limited] electronically.
Another way to de-limit the motor and the method I use is to use a modified GPS, then the motor sees all of its stock timing and fuel curves and only sees 6th gear as 5th but as I own both (TRE on bike and GPS on car) I cant really tell much difference between them as far as how the thing drives.
The one advantage to a modded GPS is you can mount a gear position indicator to it and see what gear you are in. This has been a big help for us because the tranny ratios are so close that it is hard to tell what gear you are in and can easily keep try to shift into 7th.
This is the modded GPS and gear position indicator I used.
http://boostbysmith.com/pb/wp_0ec87766/wp_0ec87766.html?0.7051036358049676
Cost for indicator AND modded GPS: 75$
Greg Smith even custom made a ours with a very long tail (10'), plug (for quick disconnect) and a red LED for 6th (all other gears are green) for no extra.
The modded GPS will also allow for future use of a gear based boost controller (allows for selectable boost settings in each gear, so 1st will only get 5 psi, 2nd will get 10 psi and 3rd will get 15 or whatever amounts you adjust it too in each gear. Helpful for drivability with high boost and it can be a handful to make 500 HP in 1st gear!)
Good product.
-JH
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The 05 is a 32 bit ecu. You can also reflash the ecu to get rid of the speed limiter and raise the rev limit and if you want to you can do all your tuning witn the ecu.
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You will want to run some sort of TRE to de-limit the motor.
The motor is limited to 180 mph (2001-2008) [99 and 00 were not limited] electronically.
Another way to de-limit the motor and the method I use is to use a modified GPS, then the motor sees all of its stock timing and fuel curves and only sees 6th gear as 5th but as I own both (TRE on bike and GPS on car) I cant really tell much difference between them as far as how the thing drives.
The one advantage to a modded GPS is you can mount a gear position indicator to it and see what gear you are in. This has been a big help for us because the tranny ratios are so close that it is hard to tell what gear you are in and can easily keep try to shift into 7th. ....
-JH
JNuts, if you are pulling 10K in 6th gear, you don't need to shift, you need to re-gear :wink:
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JNuts, if you are pulling 10K in 6th gear, you don't need to shift, you need to re-gear
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v905/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30228619_2065.jpg)
My gearing strategy was to gear the car for the peak HP to be at the speed I was "trying" to achieve.
Last years SW I had intended to use a 100 shot of No2 and geared the car to do 205 @ 10.5K in 6th....even though the motor will turn past 11 (the top geared speed was around 215). It was getting really late in getting things together before SW, so I opted to not use No2 for 07. The last thing I wanted to do was hurt a motor by half arsing No2, as I dont know much about it. But this is what I had the car geared for and never intended to get it out of 4 or 5th.....but I did anyway!
This year I will be attempting speeds in the 215-230 range. And was going to gear it to make 220 in 6th @ 10.5K (at peak HP [this graph show 239 at 10750, our motor made 242 at 10.5])
Why do you suggest not running that much RPM?
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ok well thanks for answering... your responce says it all.... the 2001 and up is SPEED limited.......
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ok now that you had a chance to think about my comment......
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Yes a TRE removes the ignition retard in the upper and lower gears and allows the ignition to advance to a desired curve but without an input from a speed sensor how do you think the computer is gonna react.?..... yes, you need to have an speed input for the ign...
kent
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Doesn't need a speed input,
ign maps are load x rpm and which of several maps is determined by gear position.and cyl number
ecu editor would let you customise these .
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Doesn't need a speed input,
ign maps are load x rpm and which of several maps is determined by gear position.and cyl number
ecu editor would let you customise these .
+1