Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: RayTheRat on September 04, 2008, 11:13:45 AM
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I've been asked about car #3522 (G/GC Firebird):
(http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/sw/20080821/20080821_0381r8.jpg)
A friend is interested in the motor in it. G class is 1500-2000cc. Could it be a 1650 bike motor? I don't know anything about it or the motor. Help?
Anybody? Bueller?
RtR
ps...there are some attempts at "artsy-fartsy" shots on my server at
http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/sw/af/af.html (http://www.chevyasylum.com/bsf2008/sw/af/af.html) if yer interested.
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-car belongs to Jack Iliff from Maryland----engine is a 122ci inline 4 cylinder based on an aftermarket cast iron block called "Kansas block"----it has a SBC head.
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-car belongs to Jack Iliff from Maryland----engine is a 122ci inline 4 cylinder based on an aftermarket cast iron block called "Kansas block"----it has a SBC head.
I googled "Kansas block" without any luck. Is it anything like the 1/2 V-8 Secos's?? I'd like to know more,
Sum
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-car belongs to Jack Iliff from Maryland----engine is a 122ci inline 4 cylinder based on an aftermarket cast iron block called "Kansas block"----it has a SBC head.
I googled "Kansas block" without any luck. Is it anything like the 1/2 V-8 Secos's?? I'd like to know more,
Sum
Try Kansas Racing Products/KRP- It's a variation of the Pont./Chevy2
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Thanks, fwillyj. That was just what I was lookin for.
RtR
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http://www.kansasracingproducts.com/About_the_Block.html
Sprint car / Oval track technology.
I think I'd go Ecotec given the choice though. It's similiar to a DOHC 4v motorcycle engine, and Chevy has publically released how to trick them out for racing.
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The Kansas Blocks can be had with differant head bolt configurations and are designed for Racing and high HP. They might offer other options also.
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What a nice looking car!! :-D
Bill (fwillyj) is correct. It is basically an "Iron Duke"/Tech IV/ SD Pontiac 4cyl. ( not the same as the old Chevy II thought similar) You recall Pontiac did have a SD block for a while and promoted it in several race series in the 80's. DOHC etc put that engine out of business and GM no longer manufactures it. Kansas Racing Products (KRP) has the rights and casts a new block with upgrades even over the SD block. Any SBC, and some Ford/Mopar heads can be made to fit and they have part numbers so engines so configured can run in make specific classes. I know a number of people using the block/engine combo in Comp Eliminator racing and they are still used I understand in midgets and were also an ARCA truck engine before they went V-6.
My engine is debored (from factory, didn't sleeve it) to 3.875 (normal is 4") and with 2.58 stroke for 121.7ci. It has a SBC head with custom intake for injection made by a guy who races similar in Comp eliminator. I know of an engine in a comp car with 202" made 465@9500 on dyno with a single carb so they can be bored/stroked a fair amount and the block is strong.
Having run Cosworth Vegas for years at Bonneville, this engine was a step back technology wise (pushrod engine) It is stronger and makes more power. Folks had suggested I just put a Honda in it but that offended my tender sensibilities and I wanted a different direction so this is what I did. Considered the Ecotec and we have seen Ron Main and the GM Cobalts do well with that engine on the Salt.
Jack
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-car belongs to Jack Iliff from Maryland----engine is a 122ci inline 4 cylinder based on an aftermarket cast iron block called "Kansas block"----it has a SBC head.
I googled "Kansas block" without any luck. Is it anything like the 1/2 V-8 Secos's?? I'd like to know more,
Sum
Sumner- I think the other posts answered your question. Effectively it is half a SBC but the configuration is the Iron duke 4 cyl. it takes SBC parts for many things ( bearings are same size as 283 but main set is sl different (thrust bearing). Rods are SBC. Balancer, flywheel etc are SBC and with, on this engine, SBC head can use that valve train etc. there are still available a high port SD Pontiac head that is supposed to flow pretty well if you have a block drilled for the Pontiac bolt pattern. there is floating around a booklet from pontiac that shows how to "hot rod" one of these engines with prep tricks. The Sesco's were like (IIRC) the slant 4 Pontiac did early 60's that was a 389 with a bank lopped off.
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-car belongs to Jack Iliff from Maryland----engine is a 122ci inline 4 cylinder based on an aftermarket cast iron block called "Kansas block"----it has a SBC head.
I googled "Kansas block" without any luck. Is it anything like the 1/2 V-8 Secos's?? I'd like to know more,
Sum
Sumner- I think the other posts answered your question. Effectively it is half a SBC but the configuration is the Iron duke 4 cyl. it takes SBC parts for many things ( bearings are same size as 283 but main set is sl different (thrust bearing). Rods are SBC. Balancer, flywheel etc are SBC and with, on this engine, SBC head can use that valve train etc. there are still available a high port SD Pontiac head that is supposed to flow pretty well if you have a block drilled for the Pontiac bolt pattern. there is floating around a booklet from pontiac that shows how to "hot rod" one of these engines with prep tricks. The Sesco's were like (IIRC) the slant 4 Pontiac did early 60's that was a 389 with a bank lopped off.
Thanks for the info. That is an interesting motor and I like the fact that a lot of the cheaper SBC stuff could be used on it. Would the block and crank be good up to 800-900 hp in a lower rpm (under 7500) blown application?? I would imagine that the newer LS series heads would not bolt up??
c ya,
Sum
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I have a Moldex crank. Some of the stock stuff would not use. The 3.6marine is supposed to be good and KRP markets a nodular Iron crank that is a step up from the stock. I am not aware of any current blown applications but I am sure someone has done so. The block is very compact and heavy and I am sure it could take that power easily. Ron Main is using a Mopar block these days which is also a Midget based ( I think, don't quote me) type block ( and GM has just announced a Midget specific block that Tony Stewart racing is going to be using) and it is taking the power too.
Basically you can get the block drilled for nearly any head bolt pattern. IIRC the bore spacing on the LSX motors is the same as Gen 1-2 SBC ( only similarity, right? ) so the head might fit. I guess is possible the LS pattern might hit some structure that would make it not work but as mentioned they do put Ford and Mopar heads on this block so I'd bet would work. Have to consider the valve layout and cam etc but pretty much all it takes is machining ( and $$)
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I have a Moldex crank. Some of the stock stuff would not use. The 3.6marine is supposed to be good and KRP markets a nodular Iron crank that is a step up from the stock. I am not aware of any current blown applications but I am sure someone has done so. The block is very compact and heavy and I am sure it could take that power easily. Ron Main is using a Mopar block these days which is also a Midget based ( I think, don't quote me) type block ( and GM has just announced a Midget specific block that Tony Stewart racing is going to be using) and it is taking the power too.
Basically you can get the block drilled for nearly any head bolt pattern. IIRC the bore spacing on the LSX motors is the same as Gen 1-2 SBC ( only similarity, right? ) so the head might fit. I guess is possible the LS pattern might hit some structure that would make it not work but as mentioned they do put Ford and Mopar heads on this block so I'd bet would work. Have to consider the valve layout and cam etc but pretty much all it takes is machining ( and $$)
Thanks for the info and I'll keep it. Orginally I was going to build a lakester for the F class with something similar and who knows what the future might bring,
Sum
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Sum, one other thing on my build. After a dyno thrash I went to Maxton last spring. Separate issue of machining (valve pocket deepened and too thin) caused failure of all the pistons with holes in 3/4. When I disassembled found the pins galled, hot and bushings in rods galled. If the tops had not failed, would have had catastrophic failure on the salt . :-( The Pontiac book recommends a notch in the rod at the beam to spray oil on the piston bottom/rod/pin. I put the BLP pin oiler/squirters in it and it did not miss a beat so hopefully that issue is cured.
I entered the mile at about 8900 and crossed the line at the 3 at 9350 my best run, shifting 9500+. :-)
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I believe a similar block is available form Joe Fontana
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Is very similar, aluminum and with complete engines, sorted available. I think the block is ChevyII rather than SD Pontiac though the differences are not big the parts don't interchange. Esslinger also builds midget motors but I think Ford based. Ed Pink too?
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Jack-
Congratulations on the record, first time on the salt with a new combination. It looks like all the parts worked :-D
Nick 3rd.
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-car belongs to Jack Iliff from Maryland----engine is a 122ci inline 4 cylinder based on an aftermarket cast iron block called "Kansas block"----it has a SBC head.
I googled "Kansas block" without any luck. Is it anything like the 1/2 V-8 Secos's?? I'd like to know more,
Sum
Sumner- I think the other posts answered your question. Effectively it is half a SBC but the configuration is the Iron duke 4 cyl. it takes SBC parts for many things ( bearings are same size as 283 but main set is sl different (thrust bearing). Rods are SBC. Balancer, flywheel etc are SBC and with, on this engine, SBC head can use that valve train etc. there are still available a high port SD Pontiac head that is supposed to flow pretty well if you have a block drilled for the Pontiac bolt pattern. there is floating around a booklet from pontiac that shows how to "hot rod" one of these engines with prep tricks. The Sesco's were like (IIRC) the slant 4 Pontiac did early 60's that was a 389 with a bank lopped off.
Thanks for the info. That is an interesting motor and I like the fact that a lot of the cheaper SBC stuff could be used on it. Would the block and crank be good up to 800-900 hp in a lower rpm (under 7500) blown application?? I would imagine that the newer LS series heads would not bolt up??
c ya,
Sum
Sumner- was surfing some and found a quote by a guy who works for KRP ( I have spoken to him in the past and seems a straight shooter). He said " A KRP engine has never suffered a BLOCK related failure even in high boost situations" My caps for emphasis and is FWIW.
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No one should underestimate the potential of Oval track engines. While Poteet ran the Ecotech in the EcoFire record runs, he has now abandoned that engine for the Dodge Oval Track motors. Poteet ran the Dodge motor in his Blowfish, and now in the SpeedDemon he's
got a Dodge "HellFire" Hemi 4 cyl. Those start as a crate engine from Dodge and Duttweiler engines built it up.
Chevy just introduced a new Oval Track crate motor - check the latest issue of Hot Rod or see your local GM Goodwrench parts counter.
Bring your checkbook....
Any Oval Track Motor should have great reliability, heck an LSR run would be a few laps around an oval rack....
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......Sumner- was surfing some and found a quote by a guy who works for KRP ( I have spoken to him in the past and seems a straight shooter). He said " A KRP engine has never suffered a BLOCK related failure even in high boost situations" My caps for emphasis and is FWIW.
Thanks,
Sum
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-here's a link to the kansas block
http://www.kansasracingproducts.com/Welcome.html
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GM's new Midget engine is very much in the testing stage. Makes you wonder why Tony Stewart went back to GM :-D :-D :-D
Jimmy Stevens has run a Fontana bottom with a Yates Ford head in his street roadster. Pretty fast as I remember using 2 of my Brazwell 2 barrels. He now runs it with EFI.....................JD
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That KRP is a great motor-needle bearing camshaft, etc, and I assure all personally that one of them has made 440 HP on NHRA gas with an ex-Pro Stock Truck (Chevy) head and a single 850 four barrel. Turns 10,000 and runs over 160 in the 1/4 mile in a 1200 lb class-legal dragster -there a few more with a variety of intakes (Webers, port injectors) that have to compete with the purpose-built way more modern Mopar midget motors (Econo?) and they aquit them selves nicely at the drags.
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GM's new Midget engine is very much in the testing stage. Makes you wonder why Tony Stewart went back to GM :-D :-D :-D
Jimmy Stevens has run a Fontana bottom with a Yates Ford head in his street roadster. Pretty fast as I remember using 2 of my Brazwell 2 barrels. He now runs it with EFI.....................JD
A thing of beauty with those carbs, EFI is definitely the way to go these days, however the current F/STR record was set with those gorgeous pumpers in these shots. Thanks JD.....
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Hi Jacksoni, could you tell me what company BLP is, you referred to it in one of your responses, on the internal components of the engine you run, ie: pin oilers/squirters. Thanx, Mike R.
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That is BLP producs- Bo Laws racing. I spoke with Mike Laws who was very helpful. I had to hand drill the main saddles as their kit is designed for V-8's as they don't have the need for it in this block. ( he did say if I were to ship him a block might be able to make up kit with the guides- a bit much for one guy but he supplied me with couple drills, the special taps with spares in case of breakage or getting dull ( you don't want to break a tap or drill off doing this :( ) and the jets with one extra in case. Is a little jet the goes in the main web to squirt the bottom of the piston. Will attach main link and the ones to installation.
http://www.blp.com/
http://www.blp.com/pdf/install/DomeOilerInstall1.pdf
http://www.blp.com/pdf/install/DomeOilerInstall2.pdf
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I own 3 of those "archaic" Brazwells. One of them on my 311" GMC went 157 @ El mirage and 161 at Bonneville quite a few years back. They are full circle annular discharge carbs with full machined venturi's and pressed in tubes. Jimmy did work with them a bunch. Only one old guy at Brazwell even remembers them. They flow between 650 and 700 CFM. Jimmy wanted to keep them but I wouldn't let them go. Someday 2 of them will be on my GMC..............
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Sum Patterson, I have a complete Pont. SD 182c.i. engine for sale. It is fresh with turned crank, new gas ported pistons w/rings GRP rods a variety of cams and rockers (Jessel) and just a ton of spare parts for about 20c on the dollar. It has a fresh head with ti valves and all the good race parts. Ran 8.40 in F econo. All for about what a Kansas block costs. Would set record in my car, don't know about yours. But it should. PM me for more details. George