Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: half-fast on August 27, 2008, 08:45:35 PM
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All,
I have no intention of digging up skeletons, swirling sweetie, or letting past ghosts out of the closet, but I have some questions on M/C front fenders that I can not resolve by looking at photo archives or deciphering from previous rules questions posted, and I am only asking about front fenders, so here goes.
I am using the 2008 edition of the rule book.
The first question has to do with 'naked' bikes. I am using the modified class rules for the basis of the questions, but the rules, and hence questions are the same for the special construction class 7.G instead of 7.F for the technocrats.
"7.F.4.1 Front fender is optional, and if used shall comply with the following: front wheel and tire shall be visible from either side for a continuous 180 deg. of their circumference. The front of the fender may not extend lower than a horizontal line drawn through the front axle. Perimeter of the fender may not be farther than 1.750 in. from the tire tread. The sides of the fender may fair in the fork tubes or sliders, but may not be over 2 in. wider overall than these parts."
"7.F.11 Open Class:
1. No Streamling is permitted in the open motorcycle class. Streamlining is defined as any devices or objects forward of the rider that has the apparent purpose of directing, limiting, or controlling airflow around the motorcycle or rider."
So the first question for the open class, with the presumption that the primary purpose of a front fender is to keep debris from getting slung up on to the machine or rider, is When does the allowed front fender become a device for streamlining and therefore not permissible? I do opine that specifically allowed fairing of the fork tubes constitutes streamlining.
The next question has to do with partial streamlined bikes, again whether modified or special construction (MPS/APS).
The relevant rule,
"7.F.12 (from the 3rd sentence of the 3rd paragraph) There shall be no streamlining forward of the front edge of the front rim"
Since we have a definition of 'streamlining', it seems to me, subject to erroneous interpretation, that in the motorcycle partial streamlining classes, that portions of a fender that extend beyond the front edge of the rim and direct, control, or limit airflow is against rule. Is this a fair reading/interpretation/intent?
I can look at many MPS and APS M/C's and draw a vertical line perpendicular to the ground, tangential to the front edge of the front rim, and see portions of a sleek front fender forward of this line. Should anything forward of this imaginary line get the sawz-all treatment? :?
For the record I also note that for the sidecar class the lack of rules for/on streamlining in the straight up SC classes.
Thanks!
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if you go by the rules you cant run a front fender in A if it is streamlining but it is exempt --you can run the same fender in A as you can in APS (makes no sense to me either--under the defination of streamlining a front fender isnt allowed in A but it is ) as far as sidecar --you can do any streamlining that you want up to the point that your exit is restricted (what the hell ever that means) restricted exit is the limiting factor to move you to sidecar streamline class --problem is everyones idea of restricted exit is not the same -------willie buchta
rule change requests have to be submitted by sept 1 2008
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wb,
off thread but lost the other.
not very proficient at this. but ,did i read right
that you lost 2 motors this year?
franey
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yes---mine blew up on the first and only run--my wife sheris blew up on the last run on friday --she did set the 500 cc sc-pf record up from 97 to 101---thats what happens when you run nos in the fuel class---willie buchta
i will start a new thread when i get the engines apart
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what a pounding. thought one gave it up in the
spring also. good for her on the record.
later,
franey
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if you go by the rules you cant run a front fender in A if it is streamlining but it is exempt --you can run the same fender in A as you can in APS (makes no sense to me either--under the defination of streamlining a front fender isnt allowed in A but it is ) as far as sidecar --you can do any streamlining that you want up to the point that your exit is restricted (what the hell ever that means) restricted exit is the limiting factor to move you to sidecar streamline class --problem is everyones idea of restricted exit is not the same -------willie buchta
rule change requests have to be submitted by sept 1 2008
Willie, why do you keep saying you can't run a front fender in A, but you can. :? The rules say you can run a front fender within certain paramiters.
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maybe you should go back and read what i wrote ---going by the rules you cant run a front fender on a naked bike but there is a exemption that says you can --if that doesnt explain it i will draw you a picture willie buchta
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I read what you wrote Willie. I see no rule that says you can't run a front fender. But, if it's easier for you to draw a picture, go ahead.
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let me state my case and see if you dont agree----
The 7.F.4.1 and the 7.F.11 open class rules apply to modified production but only the 7.F.11 rule applies to special construction. So if you read the special construction rules and you add in the 7.F.11 rule like it says in 7.G.10 than a front fender is not allowed in special constuction (in the open class) according to the rules although it is done at every meet.
willie buchta
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Willie, I disagree that 7.F.4 does not apply to A class. Fender rules for A class,7.G.4, says, see fenders in section 7.F.4. So, that's why I say they are legal and not exempt. :-D
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you are right about 7.f.4 applying to aps but it doesnt apply to the open class in A only the rule 7.f.11 applies to the open A class --at el mirage there is no m class so if you run in Aps and you take off your fairing and run in A (no streamlining in front of the rider ) then the 7.f.11 rule should apply makeing a front fender illegal--but it is done at every meet --just trying to go by the rules--it doesnt apply to the sidecar class--but im building a bike for a customer and want to follow the rules--the way i read them no one is and maybe its to late to change with all of the records ---but if i set a record and later found out that i had broken a rule even by accident or because everyone else was doing something wrong and i did what they did i would turn in my record and the trophy because it didnt belong to me ---it is very important to me that i follow the rules and if i interpret the rule to my disadvantage then i will follow that rule --one reason i run no streamlining on my bike ( no front fender either) even though i can i prefer to do it without streamlining and so does sheri ---willie buchta
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While I see how you are interpriting it now, we'll have to agree to dissagree. As I see it, the open class rule does not negate all other rules in A or M class. You still have to have brakes, chain guard, lanyard kill, etc etc. So the above fender rule applies. Agreed a fender could be used for streamlining, but they are allowed as I read it. As you said though, it's done at every meet, so the inspectors evidently agree they are legal as well.
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i think we both agree that the rules should be more precise with not such a grey area willie buchta
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Did not intend to stir up debate, nor necessarily push for a rule clarification, but rather the simple questions remain.
1. In the Open classes, (whether A or M) when is a front fender considered streamlining and therefore against rule?
2. Is a portion of the fender that extends past the forward edge of the rim against rule in the partial streamlining classes, (again whether A or M)? (by 7.F.12 and 7.G.12) A simple answer appears as yes, but again I observe that there is a plethora of M/C's in the MPS and APS classes with portions of the front fender that extend beyond the vertical leading edge of the front rim.
3. Willie makes a point, 7.F.11 and 7.G.11 seems to contradict 7.F.4.1 and there is no 7.G.4.1, rather just 7.G.4, which a reasonable conclusion could be no covering the forks etc, in the open "A" classes, and there exists a partial exemption by rule for doing the same in the open "M" classes.
Thanks
Lloyd
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to answer your questions
1. A front fender is not concidered streamlining and provided it complies to the dimentions given in the rules can be used in any class of sit on bike ( use this to your advantage ) :wink:
2.the forward edge rule concerns the fairing NOT the fender
3.the rules are at the interpretation of whoever is inspecting, unfortunatly ,but seeing as no one has been denied a record because they had a fender in A classes I would not worry about it :-)
My interpretitation is from a DLRA perspective not SCTA so use with caution
cheers
gary
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Thanks Gary,
Re:The forward edge rule, I have a hard time accepting that the intent is to apply to only the fairing, the simple sentence as printed is "There shall be no streamlining forward of the front edge of the Rim." so I don't see it as limited to fairings.
This is also two sentences after the sentence that says "no part of the fairing may be"....."forward of the front edge of the rim".
So I arrive at these conclusions;
1. In modified (M) open classes, a streamlining device also known as a front fender maybe used provided it complies with the provisions of 7.F.4.1, which is a specifically listed exemption to 7.F.11
2. In Special Construction (A) open classes, a streamlining front fender is not specifically listed as an allowed exemption. to correct this I would add 7.F.4.1 and 7.F.4.2 to 7.G.4, where 7.G.4 says to see 7.F.4, and does not specifically also call out 7.F.4.1 and 7.F.4.2, which is probably the intent.
3. In M and A, partial streamlined classes, (MPS & APS), streamlining forward of the front edge (by fender or fairing) of the rim is against rule, although does appear to be a commonly accepted practice.
This is just how I see it, as I read it, but the physical evidence says otherwise.
Maybe time to send a note to T. Evans?
Lloyd
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see what i mean willie buchta ----i will call tom tomorrow and update this post
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Lloyd, you can send a note to Tom if you wantbut, everything Gary said is correct. Front fenders are allowed.
Larry
to answer your questions
1. A front fender is not concidered streamlining and provided it complies to the dimentions given in the rules can be used in any class of sit on bike ( use this to your advantage ) :wink:
2.the forward edge rule concerns the fairing NOT the fender
3.the rules are at the interpretation of whoever is inspecting, unfortunatly ,but seeing as no one has been denied a record because they had a fender in A classes I would not worry about it :-)
My interpretitation is from a DLRA perspective not SCTA so use with caution
cheers
gary
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No wonder the car guys laugh at us.
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Larry,
I never nor intended to stake a position that front fenders are not allowed.
/L
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No wonder the car guys laugh at us.
I was thinking the same thing...I give up.
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Read my prior posts, and guess why I won't offer an opinion on this.
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OK guys, front and rear fenders are allowed in every bike class.
Partial streamlining pertains to front fairings.
Tail Sections have their own rules.
Front Fenders have their own rules.
Let's try not to make bikes as hard to understand as roadsters, the rules are ugly enough already... :wink:
See ya on the salt 8-) (again in a couple of days)
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is there any rule preventing the front fairing from extending beyond the front wheel?
thanks
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yes.... its called the Royce McClintoch rule