Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Superfast Matt McCoy on July 24, 2008, 12:58:30 PM

Title: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Superfast Matt McCoy on July 24, 2008, 12:58:30 PM
About six years ago I fell in love with auto racing.  I’ve always liked cars and motorcycles, especially the fast ones, but it wasn’t until I got involved in Formula SAE, an intercollegiate racecar (engineering) competition, that I really got into racing.  It’s easier with someone else’s money. 

A little over a year ago when I joined the world of professional auto racing and realized I hadn’t fallen in love with racing in general so much as grassroots racing.  There is no passion left in professional racing. It’s a business, and like any business it is guided by money and politics. It’s not about the cars anymore, and it hasn’t been for a long time. Somewhere along the line, Bill France and Bernie Ecclestone and others like them figured out how to make a trailer load of money selling driver personalities and race day drama.

Don’t get me wrong, I like my job; I just don’t love my job.  So in my effort to find that passion, that borderline obsession that I had in college, I started searching for a hobby.  Where could I find a racing series that would combine my love of grassroots racing with my technical knowledge of engines and aerodynamics?

Land speed racing!  It’s almost too perfect.

LSR is the one exciting arena left in racing where an individual can hammer together a race car and go beat a record. There is no money and there are thousands of different categories people can compete in, anything from a 50cc motorcycle to $50 million worth of jet powered "car".

And so here I am, designing and building a 650cc fuel, turbocharged streamlined motorcycle.  I’ve been to an El Mirage event, talked with some people, got a copy of the rulebook (3 copies, actually.  It’s a long story…).  My design is mostly done, but before I get too far into the manufacturing, I wanted to get a build diary up here.

I wanted to put up a build diary for two main reasons.  One is for people to say “Matt, you know what might be a good idea…” 

Two, and this is the main reason, for people to say “You know Matt, that’s a really bad idea/against the rules…”  Even with three copies of the rulebook it’s hard to beat the experience of someone who has gone through technical inspection or, even better, someone who is a technical inspector.

And so I’ll be back with more detailed pictures/designs, but for now here are a couple teaser pictures.  Feel free to ask questions like “Where does the parachute go?”, "What are you using for a front tire?" and "What are you, crazy?"

BTW the project name is “Superfast One”, though the bike doesn’t have a name yet.

(http://a838.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/68/l_f56b23730a2a3f598217d29eb8da2815.jpg)(http://a590.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/110/l_ed287009e18ec86ed9fea36413430bd5.jpg)
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Glen on July 24, 2008, 01:14:05 PM
Matt, welcome to LSR. As you have seen there are no two alike and that makes our sport more fun. You will get to meet many people and be friends with them for life. There are a couple of people that are all talk and no action and you will find them with little or no trouble. I like your attitude and the build diary, as it gives a lot to look at. You will find most answers here or who to go to for one. AQs there are several LSR streamliner
motorcycles on this web site your interest will become a daily place to visit. You didn't say where you live but sometimes it helps as there are locals that can come and look at the project while it's being built and help with ideas. :-)
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 24, 2008, 03:11:16 PM
Hey welcome and 2 questions:

1.  Could you post bigger images so we could see better what is going on.

2.  Any particular reason you have chosen the 650 class?  If you chose a car class motor you would have the option of sticking some 4 tires/wheels outboard of the body that you would already have made and run as a lakester.  Of course you could use the 650, but at a little cu. in. disadvantage.

When are you starting construction??  Oh yes, where will the parachute go  :wink:,

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on July 24, 2008, 03:39:31 PM
Questions? A few.

Describe the steering geometry. Conventional forks or center hub? Rake & trail?

What tire/wheel combination will you be using?

The rear wheel looks solid. What suspension do you have in mind.

Are you running gas or fuel? Nitrous? On board electric starter or external?

What are you plans for skids?

Turbo and the plumbing need a bunch of room. The exhaust can't point down at the racing surface.

Based on what I can see from your drawing it's too short. You would be surprised how much room all this junk takes. Making it longer only adds a small percentage of weight and makes working on it easer. It allows options for changing to a different engine class down the road.

You give us details, even sketchy ones, and we'll see if we can shoot some holes in it.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: 1212FBGS on July 24, 2008, 05:23:57 PM
sum in order for him to cross over into a car class like a lakester the frame will have to be 1 5/8 instead of 1 1/4
kent
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 24, 2008, 05:38:11 PM
sum in order for him to cross over into a car class like a lakester the frame will have to be 1 5/8 instead of 1 1/4
kent

True, so he had best make it with 1 5/8, the car/bike will only be 3/8ths to 3/4's of an inch wider depending on the cage layout.

Glad you reminded him and me, now back out to the shop, I'm welding more of the dreaded steel on the car so I have something to attach the body to  :wink:,

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Superfast Matt McCoy on July 25, 2008, 12:31:51 AM
(http://a627.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/75/l_26da00615b081199660da141e0be9f52.jpg)

I'm sure I don't want to build a car, I want to build a motorcycle.  So I'll stick with 1.25"  I chose 650cc because I have a lot of experience with the Honda F4i 600cc engine.  Also, I think I can go as fast as I would want to with that engine.  Construction is already started.  my frame is a bit further along than this:

(http://a511.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/59/l_6a133dba4434b8270519c1901fe148ee.jpg)

and will soon look like this:

(http://a628.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/8/l_79592697a8024e872042da7a3c9a2513.jpg)

As for the steering, the trail is 6.4" and the rake is 38 degrees.  It is activated with a complicated looking set of levers and pushrods.  The system is redundant; either side will steer by itself.

(http://a585.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/65/l_5eca08466b9845e294d2ef7cda64d628.jpg)

The front tire is a used nose landing tire from an F-16, and I am making the wheel with spun steel and aluminum.  Will the technical inspectors need to see stress analysis or calculations on this?  The rear tire will be a Goodyear LSE, and I had a question about that.  The rules say that wheels not specifically made for racing should be reinforced by welding the rim to the center section.  How is this done on an OEM type motorcycle wheel, does anyone have pictures?

The bike has no suspension, it is fully rigid.  Most of the people I talked to recommended suspension, and I chose not to for packaging and simplicity.  I'm still not sure that was a good choice, but it has been chosen.

I'll be running a turbo and methanol, no nitrous, with an on board starter and battery.  I am sure I can package these items; they fit neatly in the CAD model.

I have no skids designed yet.  I also have no parachute placement chosen yet.  Somewhere near the back, I'm thinking...

My current crisis is that I can't find anyone who wants to bend the roll hoops for less than $200.  There are three hoops, 1.25"OD mild steel, all around 160 degrees with a radius of around 7 inches.  If you know anyone, let me know
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: John Noonan on July 25, 2008, 12:46:50 AM
Matt,

I have a few comments and welcome to LSR!!

1. I assume your desired top speed is about 230-250mph?

2. Regarding the bending, if spending $ 200.00 is stopping you from furthering along your build then I would rethink your project as the cost in 99% of the cases for beginners is to take your original budget say for instance 10K and then just double it to be safe :mrgreen: for starters.

3. I hope you are kidding about the chute placement being in the back, where else could it go?

4. Why not use the later model Honda engine besides that you are familar with the older F4, I have worked with American Honda on the 600RR for the Road Race bikes (Miguel, Jake etc) and they are much better engines to start with.

Good luck and again welcome....Oh and please make sure that it will fit a Turbo Busa engine and a 5'10" 180lb rider.. :mrgreen: ( I am only about 5'9" however Deb says I have a big head )

John
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: isiahstites on July 25, 2008, 01:04:39 AM
( I am only about 5'9" however Deb says I have a big head )

John you know you are on 5' 7"  :-D

Matt - Cool project, looking forward to seeing more. Are you going to do all of your own fab work?

Scott
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: hawkwind on July 25, 2008, 06:24:03 AM
matt way cool ,I will be looking forward to this build and any comments I can assist you with , You can make your dream machine with a very limited budget ( out of your own pocket) just takes longer than using others ( i know  :wink:) ,enjoy the journey  :-Dand welcome to the addiction  :-D
cheers
gary
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Stainless1 on July 25, 2008, 09:42:50 AM
Matt, you might want to attend the Bub Meet... there well probably be a half a dozen streamlined motorcycles to look at and people to talk to.  Also check the visit to Thunderdome post in Bonneville General chat.  I put it there because it is the culmination of 20 years of building 8 streamliners, and basically the putting it back together. 
Welcome to LSR, you are right about anyone can do it.   You need a fire system, and room for probably 2 bottles, one will probably need to be 10 lbs.  The tough part of a motorcycle streamliner is you have to comply with a mixture of bike rules and car rules.   It looks like you are heading the right direction, pray for smooth salt, rigid can be a handful. 
Good luck on your build
See ya on the salt  8-)
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: willieworld on July 25, 2008, 12:09:13 PM
matt--there are three things you have to pay attention to if you build a streamliner  --streamlining--streamlining--and streamlining---it is possible to go very fast with small amounts hp--go back and read all of the posts by BLUE -then read them again --if there is something there you dont understand ---google it--  ---------------willie
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 25, 2008, 12:51:08 PM
Neat renderings!!  More questions, I think you asked for them  :wink:

Have you actually been able to get in that prone of a position??  My neck won't bent that much, but maybe you are much younger.

Is the motor water cooled?? If so where is the tank for that?  Gas tank location?  Fire bottles like has been mentioned.  I would also suggest adding some length as there will be a lot of things you will need to package.  I can't see where another 12 to 18 inches would hurt your speed and might help with stability (good with no suspension).

On the no suspension I would think you are going to miss running some meets unless the track is perfect.

Chute tube is best at 6 inches by 36.  That is what Bob Stroud wanted me to do and I'm glad I did it as I need that to get the chute he made for me in it.  It could be a little smaller and I've seen them smaller, but before you get too far along I would talk to him or one of the other chute makers.  You wouldn't need as large a chute as I have since you will be a lot lighter.

Are you going to look out under that one loop and out through the nose?

You might be able to find someone to bend the tubes for less than the $200, but I wouldn't think a whole lot less unless Willie??

c ya and don't let our questions haunt you,

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: 1212FBGS on July 25, 2008, 01:03:36 PM
yep ya might as well plan on running the Bub event as it wont be safe or legal for SCTA
kent
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Glen on July 25, 2008, 01:08:18 PM
Matt, you might want to do a mock up using pvc pipe for the drivers cockpit. Cheap and easly modified, You will also want to see if you can get in it with full gear on. This might make a difference in the final build. It also helps the placement of the rider controls.

The other thing is a good design of the skids(landing gear), Look at several before you do a final design. A small foot print or a small set of wheels causes problems. How they are extended and retracted with positative lock down and up position as well as the strength to support the bike requires some thought.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: willieworld on July 25, 2008, 01:17:00 PM
kent----   could you tell us why it wont be safe or legal for an SCTA event  willie
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: John Noonan on July 25, 2008, 01:19:46 PM
Willie...

Looks like the seating position with regards to safety belts and also perhaps the field of vision requirements for liners, might even be more...front tire..?
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Superfast Matt McCoy on July 25, 2008, 01:23:07 PM
Expected top speed is above 250, based on horsepower and CFD, and reduced by what i call a "reality coefficient".

Regarding the tube bending, it is possible that I am underestimating the cost of tube bending.  I did all the other bends in about 45 minutes, so I find it hard to swallow $200 for three bends, especially when i could just buy the die for $210.  I have a budget that i suspect is reasonable (albeit small) and so far I've come in under budget on everything. 

Chute placement was a joke, of course it will go in the back.

There is not much difference between the 600RR and the F4i, aside from a stacked transmission and a 1mm bigger exhaust valve, and some other stuff that doesn't really affect me.  The horsepower limit on any engine is dictated mostly by RPMs, displacement, and the piston's ability to handle cylinder pressure.  With Ti valvetrain components and forged pistons on the list of stuff to by, this puts both of these engines at about the same level.  I'm sure the 600RR is as good, but i have beat the living hell out of many F4i's and am utterly amazed at their ability to cope with abuse.  And I'm pretty sure I could rebuild the top end blindfolded.  Also I had a full, accurate F4i CAD model.

I am doing most of the fab work.  there will be a few laser cuts (and about three bends) that I will have to get done elsewhere.

There's a place for a ten pound fire bottle between the driver and the engine.  you can see part of it in the picture. it's red and shares that place with the electronics and fuel tank.  i'll likely stick another 3-ish pound bottle, maybe under the drivers legs.

I understand the importance of aerodynamics.  Has anyone done any testing on flow separation of streamliners? 

The riding position is uncomfortable and tight, but i am a relatively small 20-something in good shape.

It is wanter cooled and the take will go in the area above the engine, just behind the intake.

"Are you going to look out under that one loop and out through the nose?" that is the plan

"yep ya might as well plan on running the Bub event as it wont be safe or legal for SCTA" I plan on running bub, but would also like to get some runs in at El Mirage.  What, specifically, would keep me from doing this?  Can someone give me some specificity on the field of vision.  With that setup I can see the horizon in front for over 120°, except for that roll hoop which I would rather not take out for safety reasons.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 25, 2008, 01:24:04 PM
Superfast, you might go through the Archives here and scout around in other memories -- for stuff on the Team Arrow bike 'liner.  It hasn't run for two years (I think that's right), but it did get Gary Hensley into the 2 Club -- running a turbo Honda 600 motor (don't know which model engine).  You might pick up some good stuff from what they've done - there might be similarities that could help you as you design.  By the way, I remember seeing over the past winter that they were looking for a rider/pilot for the bike.  I don't know if they've found one, but if they have -- I look forward to seeing them again.  I asked -- but I'm about a foot too tall to fit inside the bike.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: willieworld on July 25, 2008, 01:30:07 PM
thats whats nice about the planning stage anything could be changed--instead of telling the guy go to bub --why not give him some suggestions and point him to the right place in the rule book--i would but i know nothing of streamliners --john is right about the front tire but if you want to run it you could try and get it approved --i dont know anything about that either --i know it has to be done 45 days before prior to the meet --to the contest board---if it were me i would use a tire that could be easily replaced and a much smaller size --better areo--better vision-- just some thoughts  willie buchta
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: John Noonan on July 25, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
Superfast, you might go through the Archives here and scout around in other memories -- for stuff on the Team Arrow bike 'liner.  It hasn't run for two years (I think that's right), but it did get Gary Hensley into the 2 Club -- running a turbo Honda 600 motor (don't know which model engine).  You might pick up some good stuff from what they've done - there might be similarities that could help you as you design.  By the way, I remember seeing over the past winter that they were looking for a rider/pilot for the bike.  I don't know if they've found one, but if they have -- I look forward to seeing them again.  I asked -- but I'm about a foot too tall to fit inside the bike.

Slim,

Garys bike was a debored Honda engine and I do recall it was a 600F4 as well, (I designed the pistons for it) it was destroked to get it in to the 500 class...

Matt,

It looks like you are on the right track and it will be cool to follow your build along the way..take lots of pictures please.. :lol:
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 25, 2008, 01:37:26 PM
Yeah, that's right -- thanks for the reminder, John.  They pitted next to Nancy and me in their record-setting year, and now I remember that the engine was made smaller.  The next step, I think I remember, was going smaller still -- maybe it was to run only two cylinders...
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Superfast Matt McCoy on July 25, 2008, 01:53:01 PM
The front tire is actually rated to 250MPH.  It's also rated for huge landing loads and pressures, so I'm sure i could go through all of Michelin's data and mathematically show that it is capable of at least 300mph in my application when shaved.  The part that worries me is that it is used and not rated for flying so most of the data has been scraped off the side.  It still has the part # and I can print out the data sheet (http://www.airmichelin.com/pdfs/MILF16AV.pdf).  I'll get together some data and run it by one of the old motorcycle techs and the next sidewinders meeting.  I'll let you know how it goes.

(http://a719.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/22/l_3a2deb79e61c0e1c973eb6165ed3fc56.jpg)
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 25, 2008, 02:01:21 PM
The front tire is actually rated to 250MPH.  It's also rated for huge landing loads and pressures, so I'm sure i could go through all of Michelin's data and mathematically show that it is capable of at least 300mph in my application when shaved.  The part that worries me is that it is used and not rated for flying so most of the data has been scraped off the side.  It still has the part # and I can print out the data sheet (http://www.airmichelin.com/pdfs/MILF16AV.pdf).  I'll get together some data and run it by one of the old motorcycle techs and the next sidewinders meeting.  I'll let you know how it goes.

At the 6000-8000 lb. load rating and the speed rating I would think it would pass if you submit it, so maybe do that soon since you are designing the front around it.  Can you get more??  Stuff happens as we found out with one of our tires last year.

It sounds like you have considered most of the areas of concern.  I would also look at the Buddfab site...

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3

........... if you haven't already as they have done a fantastic job of packaging.

I have links to other sites like what SSS has mentioned here....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bvillelinks.htm

.... good luck,

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: John Noonan on July 25, 2008, 02:04:18 PM
Matt,

Do you have a drawing already for the body style and will you make it also?  If you have a draft or drawing can you post it?

Since you stated you have a budget would you care to share what you have figured for anything you have to buy that you already do not have at this time?

Keep em comin.. :lol:
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: MCR on July 25, 2008, 02:05:12 PM
Wow!!  Looks very slick.  :-o

Minor thing you've probably already addressed:

Turbo need to have full flow oil drain or they will coke the bearings.  Probably not important for LSR entries though.

If it is, mounting the charger center section higher than the sump is normal mounting.  Allow at least 2" up and a 1/2" dia or larger drain.  

How many RPM and boost are you targetting?  Methanol?
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: John Romero on July 25, 2008, 02:18:58 PM
The riding position is uncomfortable and tight, but i am a relatively small 20-something in good shape.

Looks like you are making a nice start of it.

Have you considered all the safety equipment required in the cockpit? It does look tight, which is fine so long as you can fit but fitting in levis, tennis shoes and a t-shirt is very different that doing it with a full -10 firesuit and some sort of HANS or R3 neck restraint on. They are entirely different and is a very common new car problem.

Otherwise, good luck and post lots of pictures.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: John Noonan on July 25, 2008, 02:30:35 PM
John,

Being a M/C streamliner it will require an SFI-15 minimum, I went and had mine made as a -20, figured better to be safe than cooked... :lol: also if running over 250 it will require two chutes...

Matt do you have a current rule book?  If not someone know and we can get you one or order it from the www.scta-bni.org website, better yet get three of them... :wink:
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: John Romero on July 25, 2008, 02:53:18 PM
John,

Being a M/C streamliner it will require an SFI-15 minimum, I went and had mine made as a -20, figured better to be safe than cooked... :lol: also if running over 250 it will require two chutes...

Matt do you have a current rule book?  If not someone know and we can get you one or order it from the www.scta-bni.org website, better yet get three of them... :wink:

Yep, you are right, -15.

One thing rarely heard in the pits was "dang, I could have made this thing smaller, I have way too much extra room in here"
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: willieworld on July 25, 2008, 03:02:35 PM
loose lips --sinks ships    willie buchta
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on July 25, 2008, 03:17:42 PM
I'm going to chime in again about making it longer. The stability is better and you are GOING to need the room. I'm not sure what Kent is referring to when he said it's not legal for SCTA. It looks good to me, but Kent is an expert.

There must be a hundred tubing benders within 50 miles of you. On the other hand, $200 doesn't sound like that much.

John mentioned a neck restraint. They are not required for motorcycles, but not a bad idea either.

You mentioned welding the center section of the wheel. That's in the car section. Read only the motorcycle section unless it specifically refers to the car section.

Anything that is non-standard, like the front tire, you need to run past the motorcycle technical committee. Talking to Tom Evans at a Sidewinders meeting will get you the information, but I would submit it in writing to cover your ass.

What is the body going to be made from? If you are doing composite you might want to talk to Kent. http://www.motobody.com/ (http://www.motobody.com/)

Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: bak189 on July 25, 2008, 03:24:26 PM
A misconception needs to be cleared up regarding the statement "you better plan on racing the BUB, it will never pass SCTA/BNI Tech"
Tech. at the BUB is as good if not better than any of the other landracing clubs......but if something is not correct as to the written rule...
it is OPEN TO DISCUSSION...............this is certainly
in my mind a proper way to handle Tech................
And you will never hear the famous cop-out
"insurance will not allow it "
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: willieworld on July 25, 2008, 03:33:55 PM
matt --i would be glad to bend any tubing you need bent for 10 dollars a bend --in the 1/14 od i only have a small radis --i think its 3 in---200 dollars is way to much for 2 bends --if you want to spend that much if you buy me the die i will be glad to make your bends  (up to 20)  willie buchta
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: panic on July 25, 2008, 07:19:36 PM
Never mind
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Superfast Matt McCoy on July 28, 2008, 12:27:05 PM
i'm not 100% on the body, but this is what i have so far:

(http://a562.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/92/l_5ab58f4cf038217b4d9cead617aeed71.jpg)

The top front will be lexan, likely vacuum formed.  The rest probably fiberglass, in my garage with a lot of cursing and bleeding.  I was thinking of doing the whole thing with vacuum formed lexan.  As far as the shape, any suggestions would be very welcome, and I would be glad to do CFD runs and post my results for different ideas you have. 

As far as the wheels, the streamline motorcycle rules state that in all classes > 200MPH, wheels must be made for racing or reinforced per 2.G.  2.G is a car section that talks about lug nuts and some other stuff, the only thing I see that could be applicable to streamlined motorcycle is welding the rim to the center section.  For the record, on a cast aluminum wheel, I think this is an awful idea and I would be very surprised if any OEM aluminum motorcycle wheel was destroyed at anything less than 500MPH.  unless of course you weakened it by welding on it.  Can anyone clarify this?

Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on July 28, 2008, 01:19:55 PM
 :-D
Talked to Sam Wheeler awhile back.  He said, "People are always telling me they're thinking about building a motorcycle streamliner, and asking if I have a word of advice for them.  I say yes.  Don't."

All kidding aside, I wish you all the best on your project.  Any questions, just give a hollar.

                                     Max
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 28, 2008, 01:39:55 PM
i'm not 100% on the body, but this is what i have so far:

(http://a562.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/92/l_5ab58f4cf038217b4d9cead617aeed71.jpg)

The top front will be lexan, likely vacuum formed.  The rest probably fiberglass, in my garage with a lot of cursing and bleeding.  I was thinking of doing the whole thing with vacuum formed lexan.  As far as the shape, any suggestions would be very welcome, and I would be glad to do CFD runs and post my results for different ideas you have. 

As far as the wheels, the streamline motorcycle rules state that in all classes > 200MPH, wheels must be made for racing or reinforced per 2.G.  2.G is a car section that talks about lug nuts and some other stuff, the only thing I see that could be applicable to streamlined motorcycle is welding the rim to the center section.  For the record, on a cast aluminum wheel, I think this is an awful idea and I would be very surprised if any OEM aluminum motorcycle wheel was destroyed at anything less than 500MPH.  unless of course you weakened it by welding on it.  Can anyone clarify this?

A couple things to maybe think about. 

Do you think you might ever run blown?

Distortion on the canopy? 

I still wonder where you are going to package some items.  The back seems to taper in a little early if you are going for 7 deg. or less and still want to get in chute tubes and have them clear the front of opening doors.  I recently ran into that problem myself when my initial trig calculations where wrong.  Ending up having to move the chute tubes further back and lengthen the car 2 more feet.  Not all bad as I quickly used up the room where the chutes were with two batteries.

I realize you are probably tired of hearing about it, but maybe you are trying to go too short on the length and for what gain, but a small amount less wetted area on the drag.

The body shape itself looks good.  Maybe extend the front a little and skirt the front and rear wheels in.  The added lenght might also give you a place for the fire bottles.

One question for you or anyone.  The bottom taper upwards behind the wheel, what good does that do other than there again slightly less wetted area?  I ask because I have to decide myself what to do in that area on my car.

c ya keep the pictures and ideas coming.....they are good for us also....makes us think,

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Superfast Matt McCoy on July 28, 2008, 02:33:01 PM
I have throughly considered shortening the bike and making the cockpit wider.  I do appreciate the suggestions but I reserve the right to respectfully disagree.  The great benefit of a CAD model is you can package everything before you make it.  the fire bottle is behind the driver, you can't see it because the fuel tank is in front, but it's there.  I also have the intake, turbocharger, exhaust, and coolant tank modeled but not in that picture.  I want it short for transportation, storage, and yes, drag area.

Feel free to say I told you so if that day comes.  :-)

I will likely lengthen the rear behind the tire when I add the chutes and frame to hold them, but the basic structure will stay the same.  The body is in rough draft form, so it will likely get longer, and I will add skirts for the wheels.  probably I will also have the nose stick out farther forward so the air doesn't immidiately hit the tire.

How do you all feel about having the engine air inlet at the tip of the nose, in the stagnant high pressure area?  not necessarily for power, but to reduce drag.

the rear tapers upward behind the rear tire to give some downforce.  i havn't done the CFD to see if/how much, but I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 28, 2008, 02:50:28 PM
................I do appreciate the suggestions but I reserve the right to respectfully disagree.  ...................

For sure it is your liner and you have given it way more thought than any of us.


..................Feel free to say I told you so if that day comes.  :-)..................

That's not me.

...................How do you all feel about having the engine air inlet at the tip of the nose, in the stagnant high pressure area?  not necessarily for power, but to reduce drag..................

I think that is the best, and tried to figure how to do it, but the packaging of getting it in there and past the front suspension and myself and the long track back to the engine kept me from doing it.  Sam has done it with...

(http://streamliner.com/bonn1.jpg)

........E-Z-Hook and also has packaged a lot in a very small area.  Pictures on his site....

http://streamliner.com/

and on mine....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/b-ville%20meets/2006%20BUB-3.html

......... he also has a very low angle vision line through his canopy.  Have you seen his in person?  It would be well worth it to do so if you haven't as design considerations are very similar to what you would like to do......[/quote]

...........the rear tapers upward behind the rear tire to give some downforce. ...................

Thanks and if you model it I would like the results and also if you do it without the taper the results and the difference.

c ya,

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: JimW on July 28, 2008, 02:51:01 PM
Superfast,

How do you intend to vacuum form the body?  Vacuum into a mold?  If so, how do you intend to make the mold?  I'm working on one of these myself and have run up against the problem of making smooth compound curved surfaces.

Thanks,
Jim.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: roadtrip on July 28, 2008, 05:09:41 PM
Since you're still in the design stage, is there a possibility to design the structure in two pieces?

From the nose thru final drive could be one integral structure terminating in an aircraft style bulkhead plate, then the aft structure would have a matching bulkhead, to be bolted together. It would give you some design stretchability, more room for chute tubes, coolant, fire supression, give you more aero length options and maybe help with transportation and storage.

Just a thought.
DS 
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Dean Los Angeles on July 28, 2008, 05:25:01 PM
Smooth compound surfaces? You can do what Ron Main did with the Speed Demon. Take the 3D drawings and use it to machine the mold on a CNC! Then take it to Burt Rutan at Scaled Composites and have them make the body.

If you are going to rely on your 3D expertise make sure you have the items in your possession and re-measure them. It's surprising how many lumps, bumps, and protuberances don't show on drawings and some how show up on the one you buy that wasn't on the one you looked at in the store. Check all of them for screwdriver/wrench access. You don't want to dismantle everything to pull a hose off.

In the heat of battle when you are fighting the demons to get something fixed before the next run you are going to REALLY wish you had more room.

Quote
One question for you or anyone.  The bottom taper upwards behind the wheel, what good does that do other than there again slightly less wetted area?

Keeps the body from hitting when you are doing wheelies.  :-P
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on July 28, 2008, 05:56:11 PM
As far as the rear sloping upwards, it looks good, but aerodynamically it aint.  I had my fifth streamliner in the wind tunnel up in Vancouver B.C.  The ribbons attached to that area were everywhere.  The suggestion was to keep this area the same distance off the salt as it's belly.  My present configuration only goes up 1 and 1/2 inches in nearly 6 feet. 

The fire bottle I think, is going to have to be plural, unless the SCTA rules have changed in the last few years.  It boils down to this.  Black Lightning has to have two fire bottles.  In my case two ten pounders of halon 13 to pass tech.  However, I'm running blown fuel, which makes a difference if you read the rules. 

Insure you have a sealed metallic bulkhead between the cockpit and the fuel tank.  The venting of the fuel tank must be so made as to not spill any fuel in case of a roll over. 

                                          Max
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on July 28, 2008, 06:03:25 PM
If you see Sam's liner in real life, take note.  The lexan canopy was vacuum formed.  He couldn't see out of the thing due to the distortion, as it was all compound.  His solution was to cut the area out, which is very small, and screw on a piece of flat lexan over the hole he cut. 

The only way that I was able to eliminate distortion was to go to a dolphin shape.  All flat lexan, so you're not peering through too much lexan, which also creates distortion, I found out that you couldn't exceed  the minimum of 18 degrees angle. 

                                       Max
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on July 28, 2008, 06:09:19 PM
As far as the rigid suspension, Bob George built the Jammer, which later became the 322+ record holder, Easy Rider, for 16 years.  Bob ran a rigid rear, also at one time replaced the coil over shock on the suspension to the front.  Didn't work.  The Easy Rider machine had suspension, both front and rear. 

Don Vesco, who I think was probably the premier authority on such matters, would not build a streamliner without suspension on both wheels, and he leaned towards a soft suspension. 

                                        Max
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on July 28, 2008, 06:20:33 PM
If you make it small, getting in and out of the thing is a trick.  If those handle bars are stationary, and can't be made to get out of the road to make a hole for you to slide into, that could present a problem. 

I assume that you're going to have some sort of an air shifter for the tranny.  It doesn't look like your going to have much room, suggest you use the frame for your air tank. 

Remember to have a battery source for your roll over switch. 

It's a good idea to also have a cockpit shut off valve for the fire extinguishing system.  In a small cockpit such as yours, when the fire bottles are fired, it purges all oxegen almost immediately.  The driver needs a little air. 

Speaking of air you have to have the cock pit vented.  One of the rules.

                                      Max
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on July 28, 2008, 06:30:00 PM
Make sure you have a 5 point safety harness.  Look at the rule book on this one.  When you're lying on your back the anchoring points for the shoulder straps are critical.  No CAD is gonna figure this out. 

It's a good idea to have leg restraints as well.  Might be difficult in your case, as it looks like your feet are going to be on both sides of the front tire.  Could be figured out I suppose. 

The scrutineers will take your hands, and put them together in a praying position.  The wrist restraints must be so attached somewhere so as to prevent your arms and hands from being forced to the outside of the liner when the canopy's open.
I solved the problem with a couple of more pieces of tubing on the frame.

                                         Max
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Kansas Bad Man on July 28, 2008, 06:32:40 PM
The Vincent streamliner is 23 and 1/2 feet long, and it's filled from one end to the other with stuff. 

I also suggest you add a couple of feet to yours, it'll make life easier a little later on.

                                          Max
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: sockjohn on July 28, 2008, 06:48:12 PM
Superfast,

How do you intend to vacuum form the body?  Vacuum into a mold?  If so, how do you intend to make the mold?  I'm working on one of these myself and have run up against the problem of making smooth compound curved surfaces.

Thanks,
Jim.

FWIW, I've put fittings for an air hose into the mold to aid in removal of the part from the mold.  Works real well if the wax is put in way too thin or some idiot misses a spot.  Beats prying on the part and mold any day, but overkill in most applications.

I imagine the same could be done with a vacuum fitting, but I've never tried that. 

It might be worth looking into some of the canopy manufactures for kit planes and light aircraft, as they produce  high quality work.  They would either be a good source of info of how to do it, or a good supplier for a custom part.

Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 28, 2008, 08:04:44 PM
Great, great advice Max, mind if I take some of it myself?  I'll do the tail like you mentioned and I'm also thinking of adding a couple more bars on the sides of the cage so I can have my arm restraints a tad longer.  This also came up while talking to Lee Kennedy the other day about another cage question.

Matt one more thing that gave me fits is actually getting in and out.  When you are in the position shown in your liner ..............

(http://a627.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/75/l_26da00615b081199660da141e0be9f52.jpg)

........or in my car ...................

(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-3/6-10-08-3.jpg)

.......... to get into the car you have to, at least in my case, sit on your butt with your knees up to your chin and your back against the upper hoops.  Then slide your legs forward into the front of the foot box area. Then you have to slide forward on your butt and flex your legs at the knees so they come up into the top of the cage area.  The sliding forward is so you can then get far enough forward to get your head with the large helmet on it down to the point where you can slide backwards under the hoops in the cage over your head. 

The key to all of that happening is the ...............

(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/12-30-07-c6.jpg)

............ cross bar by your steering (the left arrow in the picture).  In your pictures you show it high right in front of your hands.  You will be looking under yours if you build it like is shown.  That would help.  In my case I have to look over it and wanted it as low as possible.  I spent a ton of time getting that one bar in where I could still get in and out of the car, by getting my knees past it (under it) and having the area in front of it high enough for my knees to go up into when I have to slide forward getting in and out and yet not so high as to block my vision.

Make sure you have a helmet at this point that is current.  My old motorcycle helmets were way too small to use for fitment.  Then someone gave me a more current one, much larger.  Then I recently got my legal 2005 helmet and it is larger yet.  I fit, but it is getting tighter all the time.  I have a real incentive now not to put on weight or someone else will be driving.  Also maybe you aren't as long in the legs as I am, I'm 6-1.  The legs are the problem as they only bend so far.  As tight as it is I've gotten out of the car suited up and to the phone across the shop in 4 rings, but I still have more stuff that has to go in there.

Remember we aren't criticizing just giving you some things to think about that maybe you have all worked out.

c ya and thanks again Max for the great info (anyone building a streamliner, bike/car or a lakester or even a modified roadster pay attention to those posts),

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 28, 2008, 09:07:01 PM
Great start and concept! Just a word of caution regarding the lexan windshield, to get a good one will probably cost you more than your car! I heard that when GM had the  lexan windshield for their "lakester" made it cost $50,000! I have a friend that has spent over $4000 for a number of lexan windshields that make you seasick if you look thru them! Listen to Max, he is giving you a ton of great advice that he has learned the hard way, experience!

Rex
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: gazza414 on July 28, 2008, 09:10:45 PM
Matt, have you worked in a Formula SAE team?

good to see some good front end project planning.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: dwarner on July 28, 2008, 09:20:40 PM
Experience has shown that a compound curve Lexan windshield combined with the compound curved visor on your helmet will result in your vision being be severly compromised.

Cost is a factor as mentioned. Flat surface windscreens are the best solution.
DW
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 28, 2008, 10:49:39 PM
......another point on the belts before I forget it.  In a sitting position like this your butt is right on the bottom of the car, so the lap belts and crotch belts attach right next to your butt on the sides or maybe slightly below it.  Herein lies the problem especially for the two lap belts.  You have hardware on both ends of the webbing, at the bottom attach point and on the top where all the belts come together.  To attach the hardware to both of those points it goes through slots in the end of the hardware and doubles back and is sewn to itself.  By the time you have the hardware, sewn webbing  and adjustable part that takes up the slack the adjustable strap gets very short and you can be out of adjustment and not be able to pull those belts tight since you run into all the hardware and webbing.

Talk to whoever is making your belts for you if you think this could be a problem and have them make the sewn webbing part as short as possible and still have it meet the sfi specs.

Also it is pretty critical where the lap belt goes over your hips to work well, so Lee Kennedy said that some are now putting in attach points there with multiple holes in the fore/aft relationship on the car so the belts can be moved for different drivers or for final fit.  A good idea that I would do if I did it again.

I still have a little adjustment where it can be pulled a little tighter if I was too loose a little weight, unlikely, but when my friend Shawn that probably weighs 130 gets in the car the lap belts can not be pulled tight enough. 

I'm now on a controlled weight program where I can't loose much or gain much as everything fits that close for me.

If I'm not clear here on a potential problem area PM me and I can call you or you can call me.  Don't loose any sleep over any of this, they are just potential problems that are waiting to be solved.

c ya,

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: salt27 on July 28, 2008, 11:03:56 PM
I assume there is a 20 second bail out test for streamliners and lakesters?

  Don
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Superfast Matt McCoy on July 29, 2008, 11:47:26 AM
Well, I thought about it, I looked at the CAD model, and I decided I'm going to make it about 4 inches longer, adding area to the short section between the driver and the engine (currently where the fuel tank, 10# fire bottle, and electronics are.)  Not quite the two feet suggested, but still more room.  I'm going to leave it empty, labeled "misc."

Also, I think I will go ahead and design the rear to be suspended and see how it looks.  Can anyone say for sure that the bike will be measurably faster suspended?  if so, why?  Is it because fully rigid will skip across the top of small bumps, and if that's the case, is the non driven wheel important too for some other reason?

My plan with the vacuum formed plastic was to make a mold with foam, similar to the way you would for fiberglass, and then take it to a vacuum form place.  I'll have to check cost and compare, that's a long way away though.

Gazza, I was on an FSAE team, U of Oklahoma. 
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 29, 2008, 11:58:21 AM
The surface of the salt is too variable to count on it being perfectly smooth, therefore not needing a suspension.  Some years the salt is flat as a three-day-old beer, and you'd be fine without anything other than a pneumatic tire.  Other times you'd lose your teeth and your vision it's so bump, and also the driven wheel would be airborne enough that you'd have a difficult time getting power to the ground at speed (the tire would be up in the air and spinning to no good, and it'd also spin for a moment when re-contacting the ground).

At 200 you're traveling nearly 300 feet/second -- or, to put it another way, it takes about 3 milliseconds to move from the top of a bump to the flat surface beyond it.  How far down will the unsuspended driven wheel fall in 3 ms?  With some suspension you've got a better chance of keeping the wheel hooked up.

My opinion, others may vary.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Sumner on July 29, 2008, 12:54:55 PM
I assume there is a 20 second bail out test for streamliners and lakesters?

  Don

Don I don't know if I ever remember actually seeing a 20 sec. bail out test, but I could be wrong.  I've seen the bail out test where to me they seemed to be concerned about an orderly, rehearsed get out where you are hitting the chute, fire bottles, restraint release and then exit in an orderly smooth, un-panicked manner.  Sure this can't take a minute but I don't know if there is a strict 20 sec. rule in effect.  Maybe JD or Dan or someone else in tech could elaborate on this as I know it is an area of concern for all of us at one point or another.

c ya,

Sum
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: RichFox on July 29, 2008, 01:25:49 PM
I have participated in a number of timed bail out drills with different drivers in my cars. I believe any of them could have left a lot faster had there been fire.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: gazza414 on July 30, 2008, 03:42:03 AM
I'm sure you'll do well  Matt, you have a huge advantage with your background being in a F SAE team..... you just need all your buddies to help out NOW !!!!!!!!!! its a big task to get it right. :roll:

Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Superfast Matt McCoy on August 12, 2008, 05:01:01 PM
I'm getting to the back half of the CAD model now, and I'm trying to package the parachute tubes.

Is there any recommendation for the size of these?  It seems most of them are about 4" round and about 30" long?

I need two chutes and lets say for the sake of argument I'll be going 280.

It would be ideal to have the attachment point exactly rearward of the center of mass, but if I had to err on one side, would I go up or down?  it seems like down would keep the front tire from losing traction or lifting.

Also, what kind of chutes are recommended?  drag chutes or custom made?
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: Glen on August 12, 2008, 05:49:28 PM
The best thing is to talk to Jim Deist or Bob Stroud on type, size and attach points. They are the experts and are in the rule book. a lot of factors need to be covered.
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: dirtytree on February 25, 2009, 07:52:31 AM
Hey Matt, how's this thing coming along?  I'm looking at trying to build something similar to your project and have found your topic extremely insightful.  Are you still working on this?

Dustin
Title: Re: Streamline 650cc motorcycle - Superfast One
Post by: oz on February 26, 2009, 12:16:50 PM
When is fabrication due to start or is it already underway.
Oz