Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => How To Section => Topic started by: isiahstites on July 04, 2008, 05:52:16 PM
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What are you guys using for notchers? I am planning on building a new bike and am going to need a good bender and a notcher first. The notcher I have now is a POS. Are there any links you guys have to a notcher I could build rather than buy? Show me what you guys are using for notchers and benders. I will probably build a bender and buy a notcher unless someone has a good plan for a notcher.
Thanks,
Scott
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I have used the www.lowbucktools.com notcher for many years with good results. I do use the 4 inch grinder after I notch the tubing to get the best fit. I have built about 30 race cars with this notcher and never had to replace anything.
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Scott
The radiused end of a tube turned 90 degrees is 2 straight cuts . I do mine with my Portaband and dress with a 4" grinder .
John
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Thanks for the link and suggestions. I have been using my cheap notcher and then dressing the notches up with a die grinder if needed. I want something that is going to make a precision notch for a very good fit. The low buck notcher I have seen before, I am not sure how it works, does it just cut the tube instead of drilling on it with a holesaw?? Is it kinda like a punch?
Scott
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Nice, easy and clean cuts.....Harbor Freight $50.....Bi-metal saws Home Depot... chrome moly cage....perfect fit every time..I was considering buying a high dollar notcher, glad I didn't.
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Hotschue:
This one?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42324 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42324)
(http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/42300-42399/42324.gif)
Make perfect joints for clean secure welds. Use with your electric drill or drill press. Precision settings from 0° to 60° in 1° increments.
Use with 1/2'' chuck
Accepts 1/2'' and 5/8'' threaded arbor hole saws
2'' pipe capacity
Requires 14'' clearance between chuck and table
Adjustable mounting bracket
All steel frame
Mike
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Thats the one I have and it has all but expired.
Scott
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The Dave Williams Low Buck is a different breed from the jig-a-joint type notchers.Noneof those IMHOP-and I've used three or four - are rigid enough structurally for long term use.
Plenty OK for a few builds, though.
The Low Buck is more robust but doesn't do angles easily- I think the one I used in the late '70s might have been the prototype and Dave might have improved it by now.Dave had as big a market with corral builders as he did racers in those days. Norco, Ca IS horse country!
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Mike, thats the one. I also had tohad to cut a larger tube than the unit is designed for. The shank mount is bolted on and I put a shim washer under the mount to center the cutter. Really easy to work with, although having a drill press helped keep everything steady. One cutter head cut all of the fish mouths pictured.
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I have been using the JDsquared heavy duty tubing notcher and am a very happy customer. When used with Starret hole saws you get a very precise combo. If you keep the Starret holesaw lubed up it will last for many cuts in chromoly.
I also use a JDsquared model 3 bender at my personal shop an i enjoy it alot more than the old hosfeld (sp) we used at the chassis shop i worked at. Is nice and sturdy and has an excellent fit and finish.
Cheers,
Grant B.
p.s. I have used that harbor freight notcher and i can't say i was very happy with it at all. Had alot of slop in it and i wonder if it would even last through one chromoly cage.
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Just a pic in use. Lube everything, moderate to lite pressure on cutter, takes about 30-45 sec. to make cut.
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Mike, thats the one. I also had tohad to cut a larger tube than the unit is designed for. The shank mount is bolted on and I put a shim washer under the mount to center the cutter. Really easy to work with, although having a drill press helped keep everything steady. One cutter head cut all of the fish mouths pictured.
I use mine in a drill press as well and I to had to add a washer to the unit to center the cutter. Don't get me wrong it worked, but it just wasn't to my liking all that much, I felt like I was spending unecessary time with the unit to get it to work properly. Then I started feeling well I got what I paid for.
Scott
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I bought a Harbor Freight tubing notcher and it works OK with good quality bi- metal hole saws. I use DeWalt saws but others are probably just as good. It isn't a high quality tool but I only need to make enough cuts to build my roll cage. Like another user I had to put washers under the three tube bolts fastening the tube holder to get it lined up correctly. Crummy but cheap-- two stars.
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..Probably belongs in "How To" but, I use the hole saw to cut a "donut" out of a sponge and leave it in the saw. Soak them in oil and you have an auto-lube . Jerry :-)
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I used a "Joint-Jigger" for several cars, it worked very well compared to some of the cheaper copies. I finally stepped up to this machine:
http://www.pro-tools.com/emn510.htm
I don't know if it's worth the extra initial cost, but it sure works nice.....
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Thats the one I have and it has all but expired.
Scott
how many cuts did you make ???
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Thats the one I have and it has all but expired.
Scott
how many cuts did you make ???
I would say less than thirty. It will still cut, but when I have to spend more time working on a tool than the tool is working, it is time to look for another.
Scott
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Thats the one I have and it has all but expired.
Scott
how many cuts did you make ???
I would say less than thirty. It will still cut, but when I have to spend more time working on a tool than the tool is working, it is time to look for another.
Scott
can it be modded to improve it ??
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Thats the one I have and it has all but expired.
Scott
how many cuts did you make ???
I would say less than thirty. It will still cut, but when I have to spend more time working on a tool than the tool is working, it is time to look for another.
Scott
can it be modded to improve it ??
It might have to be as right now I can't spend $300 plus for a new one. I was hoping to find some plans to build a new one, but I might just have to think a little for myself and come up with my own design.
Scott
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Thats the one I have and it has all but expired.
Scott
how many cuts did you make ???
I would say less than thirty. It will still cut, but when I have to spend more time working on a tool than the tool is working, it is time to look for another.
Scott
can it be modded to improve it ??
It might have to be as right now I can't spend $300 plus for a new one. I was hoping to find some plans to build a new one, but I might just have to think a little for myself and come up with my own design.
Scott
reason i ask i have a buddy and he isn't happy with his ,,so is you find info do let us know
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I have a setup that I built that I mount in my mill which will cut any conceivable angle on any size of tube. Despite that I often use the two cut method with a slight grinder tune up as I feel it gives me greater access to the root of the joint and ensures absolute penetration. Actually a belt or disc sander works really well in place of a grinder.
Pete
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If you have a mill, just clamp the tube in the vise and use hole saws to notch. I made an arbor for the hole saw out of a large bolt, 5/8 I think. Keep the speed around 500 rpm and the hole saws will last longer and be less likely to snag.
Then I have this bender, http://cgi.ebay.com/Race-Car-tube-tubing-bender-4-dies-and-pump-complete_W0QQitemZ260272226698QQihZ016QQcategoryZ92150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
It works great and for the money I haven't seen a bender that comes with as many dies.
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Thanks for the link, I have seen the bender before without all of the dies.......looks like a nice piece.
Scott
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I made by own tubing notcher and it has worked fine for angles less than 45 degrees. We are buildinf a lakester and must have made more than 100 notches. Use only bi metalic cutters,SLOW speed,and lots of oil. Cutter life varies but isn't great. I wish I could find a fine tooth cutter.I have cut only DOM tubing.
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I bought the Harbor Freight notcher with the intention of modifying it. I was going to mill out the cheap bearings and press in some good ones, but the thing works great as is.
You can tell it is cheap material, but as long as you're careful and tube notching isn't your business...
One question for those of you who have this notcher: is there a way to get it to cut angles up to 55 or 60 degrees? it's advertised up to that high, but it doesn't seem to be able to go past about 40 even with the hole saw in the farthest back position.
Am I missing something? The instruction manual is pretty useless.
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Matt;
The Harbor freight tubing notcher will work on those angles but you must use a very small hole saw.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I was taught by Duane Korn from H&L Metals on Signal Hill, who did all of my bending, how to make tube joints using a torch. I would not recommend it with 4130 but on mild steel it works great. You need to calculate the depth of the cut into the tube and then lay the cutting torch at the angle that you need and start with the torch in the middle of the tube. Once the metal starts to melt and you have a small puddle, hit the ox and stroke the torch to cut one side and then, keeping the torch at the same angle to the tube, stroke back to cut the other side of the notch. You will need to have the ox high enough to cut the depth you want the joint to be. A little clean up on the big disc grinder and you are ready to go. I know it sounds kind of crude but like everything if you work at it you can get pretty good. I have built probably 10 cages most of them for sports cars, so they are pretty complex and have used this method for them all.
That being said I think I'll buy one of the JIG a Joints for the next one just to try it.
Rex
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I was taught by Duane Korn from H&L Metals on Signal Hill, who did all of my bending, how to make tube joints using a torch. I would not recommend it with 4130 but on mild steel it works great. You need to calculate the depth of the cut into the tube and then lay the cutting torch at the angle that you need and start with the torch in the middle of the tube. Once the metal starts to melt and you have a small puddle, hit the ox and stroke the torch to cut one side and then, keeping the torch at the same angle to the tube, stroke back to cut the other side of the notch. You will need to have the ox high enough to cut the depth you want the joint to be. A little clean up on the big disc grinder and you are ready to go. I know it sounds kind of crude but like everything if you work at it you can get pretty good. I have built probably 10 cages most of them for sports cars, so they are pretty complex and have used this method for them all.
That being said I think I'll buy one of the JIG a Joints for the next one just to try it.
Rex
Rex - Interesting, any chance of you taking a few pictures and showing your method in steps??
Scott
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I'll do some pics in a couple of weeks, plan to be real busy next week.
Rex
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I'll do some pics in a couple of weeks, plan to be real busy next week.
Rex
will be looking for them
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I'll do some pics in a couple of weeks, plan to be real busy next week.
Rex
Thanks
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I'll do some pics in a couple of weeks, plan to be real busy next week.
Rex
Any chance of getting those pics now Rex?
Scott
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OK isiahstites here it is the "hammer and torch" method of fitting tubine. First a couple of words of advice: Don't uses this method with 4130 tubing. Once you have it cut with the torch it is a bitch to file. It works great on heavy wall mild steel tubing or pipe. This method is not as nice or clean or easy as using a joint saw, the quality of the fit is directly proportional to the amount of work you put into it. More experience will get it done faster and better.
Tools required: Torch with good cutting head. Gloves, good shades or goggles, a good quality large radius 1/2 round file, floor mounted grinder, disk or belt, mine is a 12 inch disc.
This proceedure is to make a tube joint that is a 90 degree joint. I sometimes will mark the tube with calk to somewhat outline the cut that I am looking for, next you hold the torch at the center of the tube back from the end where you made your mark, angle the torch approx 45 degrees (see picture). Once the torch has made its puddle you hit the ox and you will blow a hole in the tube at an angle, now move the torch in a straight line back and forth across the tube. If you have your ox set at around 35-40 psi the torch will cut completely to the end of the tube. ( see pics again). Turn the tube 180 degrees and do the same for the other side. Now you have the big pieces out and the real work begins, using the disc grinder and the file remove any material that will prevent a good fit up between the tubes. (In other words this is were the work come in!) I did this fit up in about 5 minutes. Tubing is 1-3/4 dia x .095 wall.
Just to show the correct way to install a diagonal tube for proper "excentricity" I cut a second tube to match into the joint at 45 degrees. Again it took about 5 minutes to cut, grind and file this joint so that it could be welded. You can see that the diagonal is welded to each leg of the 90 degree joint and the center lines of each tube would cross at the same place. This is strongest, and stiffest joint design you can use for diagonals. It is a little more work but worth it for the increase strength.
I will do a couple of more post to get all of the pics.
Rex
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Let me see if I can figure out how to post more than one pic. OK the pic in the first post is really number 4 of the progress.
Rex
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The rest of the pics.
Rex
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One more pic to show the excentricity of the diagonal tube weld solid.
Rex
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Thanks a lot Rex! The pictures are worth a thousand words, great write-up and work.
Scott
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Go here and scroll down to tubemitre.exe for a program for making templates for cutting notches. http://www.ihpva.org./tools/index.html (http://www.ihpva.org./tools/index.html) Real easy to use. Enter the dimensions/angle, print and cutout the template. Trace the outline on the tubing and cut.
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I am not cut out for welding or cutting !!! Was at a friends shop and tried out his Plasma cutter.. yeah I cut a straight lines but was all herky jerky following a guide,,, man I have a better appreciation for all you welders and fabricators... I am going to need a lot of practice.
Charles
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Charles, I could save you a lot of work. Just buy my Studebaker!!!!!
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Scott, I have a notcher that I have used a lot----but I am beginning to use a cut off wheel in a angle grinder to do small jobs and odd angles rather than set it up, ----BUT be careful as you Walk it around the tube ---as you get deeper in the tube it can bite and kick the grinder out if you don't keep it absolutely paralle to the cut------Wear a full face shield and gloves and KEEP the grinder shield on loosely---you will have to stop and rotate the shield as you walk the cut off wheel around the pipe---the torch technique Rex has shown is safer in my opinion!!!!!! I use the pedstal grinder to bevel and finial fit the fishmouth.
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GH,, I know you are right. The initial cost to buy your car would be less. But in the long run it would be more.
I would have to modify it so I can get in and out, I would have to change motors, then repaint it to my signature satin black with white lettering and red trim... I am sure the list would go on..
My new Crank for the New Vicky motor just arrived, so hope to begin assembly soon. (The exisiting Vicky E motor will make a great choice for my Studebaker build, unless It sells, then have another block to start on for a good "D" platform as well.) Hope to have 3 power plants by spring "C", "D" and "E"
Thanks again for the offer...cash is tight with the new shop build finishing up today,,, have to hope market comes back so I can finish the Stude for 2009 season.. Keep in touch.
Charles
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I built a special clamp to go on my 14" abrasive cut off saw. It works fast and really well and is a lot safer than using a cut off wheel in a grinder. I'll post as picture later.
Charles, don't give up! Concentrate on relaxing. It'll take a while but once you get there you've got it made.
Pete
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Pete,
I really like your idea using an abrasive chop saw. I am looking forward to seeing pictures of your attachement. It would do the same thing as my "blue wrench" method except be a bunch cleaner and less work with the file and grinder.
I have thought about a chop saw for my shop and now that I am getting closer to doing some "tube" work on my race car project and if I added your idea it would make a lot of sense.
Rex
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After I chop saw the tubing if I have a weird or hard to fit angle I will wrap a piece of paper around and tape it together to make a tube. Then slide the paper out over the end and start cutting with scissors till I get the fit just right. That gives you the pattern you need. Slip it over the tube you are going to fit and mark the pattern on the tube. Grind off to the pattern marks and it should fit the same as the paper did.
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I'm going to try posting the pictures of the attachment on my Makita cut off saw.
Hey, it works!!! Scary.
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Peter,
That's cool! Does the one bolt hold it steady enough? Or do you find you are holding the holder with one hand?
Can you post some photos of the bar holder off the saw. Side and bottom shot please.
I use the cutoff saw to notch the tubing. And I found set up is easy using a digital angle gauge. Harbor Freight for $30.
http://www.virtualvillage.com/items/item.aspx?itemid=4670187&utm_source=baseusa&utm_medium=shopping&CAWELAID=190645045
Geo
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One more picture might help. Usually I either use it on the floor and use one or more blocks the same height as the table or put it on a bench and use adjustable height stands to support the tube. The single pivot bolt doesn't show any tendency to move but I usually have my left hand on the tube to the left of the clamp while I'm operating the saw with the right hand.
Pete
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Duhh---I have used some similar device---to build my headers---but used hose clamps and a small angle iron to hold exhaust tubing for a but weld---
Guys please post these in the HOW TO SECTION---in the future can we post there then make a reference to you post---these are things that can help us all----thanks
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PJ what brand and size cut off saw is that ? (I am spent out on the shop build, but maybe my wife can get me at least a nice 8" vari speed grinder and cutoff saw for Christmas )
Charles
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Out of my range but check out beaumontmetalworks.com belt sander for tubing notching. Don't know much about it but seemed very versatile . This was brought up on the Metalmeet site a while back.
Ron Gibson, Omaha NE
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I would think one of the HF oscillating spindle sanders
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=95088
might make a good tool for dressing to fit.... Wait till it goes on sale to buy.... :wink:
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That's a 14" Makita cut off saw Charles. Tube fitting is about all I ever do with it because I'm lucky enough to have an 11" liquid cooled cold cut saw to do most of my fabricating.
Pete
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Good tips
, if you are handy and have a lathe, try this..
Rig up a V block & clamp on your toolpost, bottom of V should be on Centerline.
Mount your holesaw, flycutter, rotaBroach, etc in the chuck or better with taper adaptor to spindle.
Clamp tube in v block, adjust angle & clamp toolpost.. use handwheel of carriage to feed tube into cutter..
I bet you never go back to the drill to notch after that..
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lobucktools.com
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Sorry to contradict you Glen but it's actually www.lowbucktools.com . I know because I've made the same mistake before. Dave's really good to deal with and his stuff works.
Pete
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It's ok Pete, New computer and Vista learning curve.Thanks for the correction.
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Glen:
Have you tried your new Vista computer on chat yet? Neither of mine will work. I spend Tuesday evenings on the MAC.
Pete
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After I chop saw the tubing if I have a weird or hard to fit angle I will wrap a piece of paper around and tape it together to make a tube. Then slide the paper out over the end and start cutting with scissors till I get the fit just right. That gives you the pattern you need. Slip it over the tube you are going to fit and mark the pattern on the tube. Grind off to the pattern marks and it should fit the same as the paper did.
Thats a neat and simple idea whichever way you end up doing your mitres. We used a cut off saw,a flap disc for dressing the cuts, rounding the points and taking that tiny bit out the inside before a little tap with a heavy hammer to get the fishmouth right.There is a little intuition , a lot of T&E and a few rejects.........always remember though that If you leave the shortest pieces to last then you're bound to have a bunch of pieces that are half done already(too short for what you made them for)on one end. :roll: :roll:
What I did learn though was that if you imagine the cuts are at 90 degrees to one another and their dividing line is perpendicular to the pipe you are joining to it's easier..........once you've set the angle of the clamp in the cut off saw you only need to rotate the pipe through 180 degrees to make the second cut.
That didn't sound as simple as I thought....................
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Pete, trying to down load the plug ins right now.I.ll get it figured out
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Glen:
Have you tried your new Vista computer on chat yet? Neither of mine will work. I spend Tuesday evenings on the MAC.
Pete
Pete,
I got a new computer for Christmas. It is a Dell with Vista. No problem logging on to the Chat line on Tuesday's.
Tom G.