Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: manta22 on June 08, 2008, 07:27:10 PM

Title: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2008, 07:27:10 PM
My B/GMS is still under construction but it's getting there. It is based on a Manta Mirage but modified to increase the chassis strength and stiffness. The front & rear suspension are new fabrications and there will be a stressed panels on the chassis. A full roll cage will be added, of course.

The engine is a Donovan 383 driving a Porsche G50 transaxle turned upside down so that the 5- speeds are forward, not reverse gears.

Everything is currently temporary-- tack welds & Clecos, etc. The chassis is mounted on a dolly in these photos.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on June 08, 2008, 07:54:31 PM
Great start, Neil. From the first foto date I think the body is probably fully cured.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2008, 08:00:22 PM
Yep, I think you're right about that. It helps that since then I've retired and have more time to work on it now in earnest. Things are moving along at a much faster pace now. I'm shooting for the first run in 2009.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 08, 2008, 08:16:00 PM
Nice start, keep those pics coming?  Most people will tell ya it is easy to make a car that runs the twisties go straight, be we all know better.  It is not easy to make any car go WOT and straight.  Good luck with the project, see ya on the salt.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2008, 08:21:45 PM
Will do. I have no illusions about how "easy" it is to go in a straght line at high speed! We've all seen some humiliating failures on the salt. I'll try to avoid being one of them but in any case it will be a learning experience for me.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: dwarner on June 08, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
Neil,

Don't forget to bring the documentation of 50 or more models produced to impound.

DW
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 08, 2008, 09:21:15 PM
Currently there are 144 in the Mirage Registry online, that is probably enough to prove 50 produced.  I had the same thought so I looked.  Not enough for GT, but OK for MS. 

Oh yea, Neil's is one of them.  Saw one listed as #217.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: John Noonan on June 08, 2008, 09:30:47 PM
Can you run this with either an H or G engine for this class?

J
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: John Noonan on June 08, 2008, 09:34:09 PM
Nevermind, I see them in the 07 book.. :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 08, 2008, 09:50:16 PM
Can you run this with either an H or G engine for this class?

J

all the way down to I, blown, unblown, gas, fuel, seems like unlimited possibilities, I smell another championship brewing....  :roll:

and there is one on Ebay
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on June 08, 2008, 10:03:26 PM
Neil
Glad to see you on this site, Lot's on good stuff here. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2008, 10:48:25 PM
OK, Dan-- if & when I get to impound!

I have an couple of e- mails saved somewhere that address the legality of this car. Someone in the SCTA investigated it already and found to their satisfaction that there were more than 500 of this model produced. I'll have other documentation as well, of course.

One thing I've wondered about is how cars in MS can run extended wheelbases since the rule book prohibits lengthening the body. "Removal of minor trim & bumpers is allowed as long as the body is not altered in length, width, or contour."

Maybe this question really belongs in the SCTA Rules Forum, though.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 08, 2008, 11:06:24 PM
One thing I've wondered about is how cars in MS can run extended wheelbases since the rule book prohibits lengthening the body. "Removal of minor trim & bumpers is allowed as long as the body is not altered in length, width, or contour."

Maybe this question really belongs in the SCTA Rules Forum, though.

MS can change from the cowl forward.  The body is aft of the cowl, a top chop is allowed there. Notice height is not mentioned.   It is a little hard to follow, but that is basically it, they don't want you to narrow and lengthen the part aft of the cowl, basically building a streamliner marketed as MS.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2008, 11:29:36 PM


MS can change from the cowl forward.  The body is aft of the cowl, a top chop is allowed there. Notice height is not mentioned.   It is a little hard to follow, but that is basically it, they don't want you to narrow and lengthen the part aft of the cowl, basically building a streamliner marketed as MS.
[/quote]

Ah so. To me the "body" refers to the whole car's bodywork: I guess I'll have to learn the nuances of hotrodspeak.  :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 22, 2008, 03:42:31 PM
I've been making a bit of progress on my BG/MS buildup. The R & P is mounted and the steering column is now in place. Here is some detail of how I've cross- bolted my Borgeson and Apex u- joints in the steering (the bolts fit into reamed holes but they're not fully tightened yet). I'll have a steering wheel quick- release on the end of the column tubing.

 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: vette#128 on June 22, 2008, 06:32:46 PM
Looks like a great start to a real innovative car. When do you hope to have it in race trim Neil?
Ed
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 22, 2008, 10:36:52 PM
If all goes well I plan to get it into tech inspection at Speed Week 2009. I'll be there again as a spectator this year. I hope to see you there, Ed.

I finished welding on brackets for my steering column support bearing and cut the tubing to length for the column—3/4” 4130N. I used a Borgeson aluminum u- joint to connect the Wilwood steering rack to a short intermediate tube and an Apex U- joint to connect the main tube. I’ll not cut it to length until later—I don’t want to get the length wrong. I drilled & reamed the U-joints & tubing and cross- bolted them with titanium & stainless hardware—good ol’ surplus market!

Yesterday I also made a support bracket for the RH rack mount and today I tack welded it in place. The Mustang II front spindles are a PITA when it comes to placing the steering rack. To minimize bump steer it has to be mounted low since the steering arms are low but this leaves little room for mounting the master cylinders. I think I have an idea of how to do it but we’ll see….

Earlier in the week I made a front chassis cross- brace from 2” x 2” tube and tack- welded it to the top chassis tube; there will be a few gussets added at the tube intersections for strength. It should stiffen the Mirage chassis somewhat and satisfy the SCTA rules about keeping your body parts inside the chassis if the fiberglass body separates. Friday I picked up the front hoop for my roll cage. I finally found someone in Tucson who would try bending a non- constant radius bend in 1 ¾” 0.120” round steel tubing (SCTA requirement). The guy has an off- road (4X4 & rock crawlers) shop and does his own fabrication. I made a template out of Masonite and he followed it better than I had expected. It will fit inside the Mirage windshield hoop and be braced to the front & have tubes connecting it with the existing Mirage Roll bar. It should be fun getting in & out of these monkey bars.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: vette#128 on June 24, 2008, 11:37:08 PM
Keep at it Neil, we'll be following your progress.
Ed

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2008, 10:46:58 PM
It's getting there-- slowly. I found someone who could bend 1 3/4" x 0.120" tubing along a non- constant radius for my forward roll cage hoop. It has to follow the curve of the windshield. The steering column and support bearings are tack- welded in place along with everything else. The joints are only tack welded now but the flux is everywhere-- arrggghhh.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on July 19, 2008, 01:16:28 PM
Neil,  So glad to see you finally getting to work on your car---looking very good---best of luck on continuing to find the time--hope to get to see your car next year---have fun and enjoy the "JOURNEY"
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 26, 2008, 05:32:17 PM
To increase my chassis strength and protect from side impacts, I added a shear plate across the top of the chassis tubes. It's 0.050" 6Al-4V titanium that I had cut by a friend, Wade Musil, using his plasma cutter. I had tried to cut it with an abrasive wheel but that attempt was an abject failure! I trimmed the cut edges with an abrasive flap wheel-- that made beautiful white sparks!

Here is a photo of the plate held on temporarily with Cleco fasteners. These are cylindrical Clecos; they tighten with a screw acrion so they hold the sheet much tighter than the usual spring type. There is a small had tightening tool visible in one corner. It works by a roller bearing sprag clutch; turn it over to remove the Cleco. I drilled 50 #10 holes and learned the trick to drilling titanium-- make a starting dimple with a heavy center punch and use a slow speed but firm pressure. High RPM or a light feed will only let the drill spin and work harden the metal. I used a few drops of "Cool Tool' lubricant that I've had for years. I think that little bottle was even a free sample.

Why titanium? Well, I needed something strong and I had some titanium that I had bought surplus some time ago. I'm finally using up some of the junk that I've acquired over the years!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on July 26, 2008, 07:11:33 PM
It's always nice to have some junk titanium lying around. :roll:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 26, 2008, 08:42:39 PM
...and some A-286 Cherry rivets!  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Sumner on July 26, 2008, 08:47:32 PM
Wow, I finally found someone that drills as many holes as I do and they even do it in a lot tougher material :wink:. 

Looks neat how about more pictues of what you have done.  I'd like to see them,

Sum
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 27, 2008, 07:57:48 PM
Thanks, Sum. If a rivet pattern is going to have any strength it has to be closely- spaced and that means a lot of holes! A few hardware store Pop rivets isn't going to do it.

I like those cylindrical Clecos. For installing or removing lots of them a hand tool gets tedious and is slow. I found an Ingersol- Rand air tool on eBay for doing that job and it really is slick.

Clecos are like garage space, closet space and hard drive capacity-- no matter what you originally thought, you never have enough.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 01, 2008, 09:48:45 PM
I just received a battery disconnect switch that I ordered- a Moroso 74102. This thing is REALLY heavy duty, rated at 300 amps continuous and 2000 amps intermittent. The other ones I've seen look like toys compared to this thing.

Believe it or not, the best price I found was Amazon.com and they had free shipping! I just thought I'd pass this along.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 02, 2008, 03:32:02 PM
Lots of little things are going on-- got my battery box from Speedway Motors and put in the sealing gasket and drilled the box for the top fasteners. I ordered a few Rivnuts to install in the box so taking off the cover will be easier.

The instrument panel is coming along. It is 0.060" 2024-T3 and stiffened by two 1/2" C- channel extrusions. These are Cleco'd on right now. I put in the tach and shift light into their mounting holes and mounted (temporarily) two Roto- Tellite indicators and my FIRE indicator. This will be lit by a Kidde Aerospace fire detector mounted near the engine. Here is what it looks like now:

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on August 02, 2008, 10:07:01 PM
Quote
This will be lit by a Kidde Aerospace fire detector mounted near the engine. Here is what it looks like now:

I do alot with Kidde stuff for work...didnt even know they had something like this.

So you gonna have that fire detector automatticly shut off the motor and release agent or is it just a dash light?

I have a mid engine car as well the idea of a fire detector seems like a good one, I could see the motor on fire for a few miles before I would even know it was burning!

Will look into one for next year....I ask myself...."why didnt I think of that!"

-JH
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: dwarner on August 02, 2008, 11:51:54 PM
The rear engine streamliner I drove in 2004 has inspection windows like a Funny Car. The deal was you looked in two mirrors under the dash back to the windows to check for fire.

A lot of nervous adjustment while sitting in line. I figured if the car nosed over it was time to shut down everything fire or not.

DW
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 03, 2008, 01:52:54 PM
JH;

The fire detector sensor is made by the Aerospace Division of Kidde in Wilson, NC. I'll have it turn on a bright red light only so I can use my judgement as to whether it is a false alarm, only a minor problem, or a full- blown (pun intended) catastrophe.

Yes, If you are driving a rear- or mid- engine car then you are the last to know that you're on fire. I lost a Porsche 911 just that way.  :x

Here is the indicator lit.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on August 03, 2008, 06:19:10 PM
Neil,
What a good idea [fire detector].
Thats what makes Landracing.com so useful, all of these ideas coming togeather to help everyone be safer and go faster.

Thanks,
           Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on August 03, 2008, 06:28:04 PM
Many of the streamliner bikes and cars as well as others have automatic fire control as well as manual. Both of the Vesco liners have warning lights for the driver. They have been around for a long time and several types are available. It's always a good idea to have an early warning system. Sam Wheeler has a spring loaded air cylinder with a poly flo hose that melts and if the system loses air pressure it deploys the chute and fires the on board fire system. Check out the cars and bikes at SW.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 03, 2008, 10:24:49 PM
A little more progress-- I'm still waiting for a 2 9/16" hole saw that I ordered so I haven't installed my oil pressure, water & oil temperature gauges in the instrument panel yet but I did get a few more indicators in. In the meantime I made a little aluminum panel for all my Panel- mounted switches and circuit breakers. The circuit breakers that I'm using are made by Airpax and look like toggle switches. In fact, they are made to be used as switches with a built- in circuit breaker action. More neat aerospace surplus stuff.

The round buttor is a pushbutton switch for the starter, next is the main power switch with a switchguard so I can simply bat at it with my gloved hand to shut off all electrical power, the other toggle switch is for the ignition.

I have two 80 amp auto- reset breakers that I'll mount elsewhere. One big breaker will be in series with each relay- switched 12V power buss.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: javajoe79 on August 28, 2008, 02:38:49 PM
I've been making a bit of progress on my BG/MS buildup. The R & P is mounted and the steering column is now in place. Here is some detail of how I've cross- bolted my Borgeson and Apex u- joints in the steering (the bolts fit into reamed holes but they're not fully tightened yet). I'll have a steering wheel quick- release on the end of the column tubing.

 
Are the bolts on the apex joint titanium? Looks like some that I bought a bag of on ebay. Do the rules require cross bolting? If so I missed that. From what I am used to in road racing, those eventually egg out, so welding is preferred. I'm not questioning your method, I have also seen that elsewhere on this site.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: javajoe79 on August 28, 2008, 02:48:26 PM
I read on and saw in another post that they are TI. Gotta love that surplus. Ebay is full of that stuff.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 29, 2008, 08:02:50 PM
JavaJoe;

Yes, they are titanium. I don't think there's any rule requiring cross- bolting but it is just good practice. Cross- bolting spreads the shear load over twice the area, reducing the stress and making a redundant connection (if one fails you still have another one). Welding opens another can of worms; the heat kills the needle bearings in this type of u- joint.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 29, 2008, 08:17:17 PM
I'll post a few photos of how I riveted my aluminum instrument panel to two u- channel stiffeners. These are 1/8" AVEX rivets (see http://www.crawfordproducts.com/avex.htm) used in a non- structural application. AVEX rivets are much better than hardware- store POP rivets since they retain most of their steel mandrel within the body of the rivet. This increases their shear strength and since this rivet design causes the end of the aluminum body to fold over the end of the mandrel, it helps retain the mandrel under vibration. They are no substitute for CherryMAX rivets by any means but they are good and far cheaper than CherryMAX rivets. Another advantage is their wide grip range.

The instrument panel has a random finish obtained with an orbital sander. Then after cleaning the panel I gave it a thin coat of zinc chromate primer.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: javajoe79 on August 29, 2008, 10:51:21 PM
 Yeah I take them apart when I weld them, or use a heat blocking goop. I like your fab work and use of trick fasteners. Just my style.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 31, 2008, 04:30:41 PM
List;

Here are a couple of pictures of my finished instrument panel. It’s not wired yet, of course and the body is still removed. The panel is mounted on three vibration mounts to protect the instruments. The front view is the driver's- eye view and the rear shows how it is mounted.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid-Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Roadsters.com on August 31, 2008, 05:27:45 PM

My B/GMS is still under construction...based on a Manta Mirage but modified to increase the chassis strength and stiffness...front & rear suspension are new fabrications...stressed panels on the chassis...full roll cage...Donovan 383 driving a Porsche G50 transaxle...


Guess I wasn't paying attention because I missed this thread until now. This is a very neat project. And would I ever like to drive it!

Humpy Wheeler owns a Mirage, or at least he used to. His uses the usual Corvair transaxle, so it has to be shifted gently. One nice touch on his car was brushed aluminum sheets covering the rocker panels beneath the doors, making it look that much more like the McLaren it was inspired by.

Here's the Wikipedia entry for the Mirage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manta_Mirage

There are a few videos of them on YouTube, but most are poorly done. This one provides a decent look at a mild street version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpjOkuTbnA&feature=related

Don't ever grow up. From what I've witnessed, it's no fun.

Dave Mann
(602) 233-8400
http://www.roadsters.com/
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on August 31, 2008, 06:58:12 PM
Neil,
I bet living in Tuscon aircraft surplus is pretty easy to find!! Thanks for the link to the Avex rivitts, I have always prefered these on Dzus applications and small brackets.

Love your build.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 31, 2008, 07:23:14 PM
Rex;

Ahhh... the olden days when Tucson was ringed by aircraft salvage yards and you could buy almost anything- cheap too. Thanks to the EPA & DOD regulations they are virtually gone-- eBay is a better source for surplus these days!

In the very early '70s here in Tucson I could have bought a complete A26 twin- engine attack bomber in fly-away condition for only $19k. Shoulda done it.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Roadsters.com on August 31, 2008, 07:29:41 PM

In the very early '70s here in Tucson I could have bought a complete A26 twin-engine attack bomber in fly-away condition for only $19k. Shoulda done it.


Bet your ex-wives are thankful you didn't.  :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 05, 2008, 05:48:03 PM
Actually, my first (late) wife was OK with the idea of buying one. The practacalities of flying ($$$) an A-26 was what torpedoed the idea. They're all sold long ago so my present wife (a sweetheart, too) has no opinion.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 05, 2008, 05:54:59 PM
Here is a photo of my finished instrument panel and switch/circuit breaker panel. This is a "driver's- eye" view. I'm missing a switch guard for the ignition switch (next to the master power switch) but I have one on order. The panels are aluminum with a zinc chromate finish.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 20, 2008, 01:35:11 PM
I fabricated a pretty healthy heel support plate from a piece of scrap 0.160" 7075-T6 that I had lying around. It is held to the chassis tubes by rivets through some aircraft aluminum extrusions. After drilling all the holes and deburring everything I went over it with an orbital sander to scuff the surface slightly to provide some "tooth" for the zinc chromate primer.

The pedal pivots are some surplus things that I bought some time ago with the idea that they looked like they would be useful for something-- and they are. The fabricated pedals rotate on a chrome- moly rod that runs through these things. I need to move the clutch pedal pad over a bit to the left but that's a low priority item. The pivots are bolted to a 0.125" 6061-T6 plate with 1/4- 28 flat head titanium bolts. This plate is also fastened to the heel plate with the same type bolts. It is also finished with an orbital sander and zinc chromate. The pedals will eventually be reinforced a bit and then plated.

BTW, my wife hasn't asked "What are you going to do with all this stuff?" lately. :-)

Here are a couple of photos.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on September 20, 2008, 08:32:37 PM
Dont forget the pull back on that throttle pedal!

(Unless you’re using hydro lines)

Love the work....I follow your build closely

 :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 20, 2008, 10:33:16 PM
JH;

The pull-back bracket will be added later when I do a bit more work on the pedals and before I have them plated-- probably zinc plating with a gold passivation.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 03, 2008, 07:38:42 PM
This is just a fabrication tip for anyone who may be interested.

This photo shows how to put a bolt through a tube-- in this case a 2" x2" square steel tube. If holes are simply drilled through the tubing and bolts are inserted, the tube will be squeezed and deformed as the bolt is tightened. A far better approach is to cut a length of round tubing slightly longer than the width of the large tube. The I.D. of the tubing sleeve should be slightly larger than the bolt diameter. Insert the sleeve through the tube and then carefully weld around the sleeve. This sleeve will then prevent the large tube from being crushed as the bolt is tightened.

In this photo I am using two sleeves for 3/8" bolts; the sleeves are assembled in the tube but not yet welded.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Geo on November 03, 2008, 08:34:02 PM
BTW, my wife hasn't asked "What are you going to do with all this stuff?" lately. smiley

It's because SHMBO can now find you with out looking all over the neighborhood.  She tells her friends "If I want him he's always in the garage."   :evil:

Geo
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Geo on November 03, 2008, 08:43:53 PM
Neil,

Love your work, enjoy reading about the build.  The tip about bolt sleeves in the tubing can be applied to all section types of tube and even imitation tube like our unibody stiffening and frame box sections.

For supporting our radius arms in case of failure we drilled a hole and inserted a tube with 3/8 ID that was 1/4 inch wider inside and out for 1/2 inch total wider than the body section.  This was welded in and painted.  The cable with small loops on each end was placed over each end of the tube and a stainless bolt with extra wide stainless washers and a stainless nylock nut was tightened.

Geo
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 04, 2008, 12:46:30 PM
Thanks, Geo. Your radius arm restraint strap attachment looks like a good one.

Your mention of a washer reminded me of another trick when putting a sleeve in a very thinwall square or rectangular tube. Place a washer with an I.D. slightly larger than the O.D. of the sleeve on each side of the side of the tubing and then weld around the outside and inside of the washers. The diameter of the washer spreads the load over a larger area of the thinwall tubing, giving it more bearing strength. This works for thin sheet metal, too.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 07, 2009, 04:33:56 PM
The new left rear suspension is in place now but the modified chassis members are only tack- welded at this point. At present I'm duplicating this on the right rear chassis. Flux is everywhere.

The aluminum uprights are from a 996 Porsche and the calipers & rotors are from the front of a 928 S4 Porsche. The coil- overs are adjustable Aldan units.

Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: John Burk on June 07, 2009, 07:07:25 PM
Neil
Aren't the arcs of the two upper links in conflict ?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on June 07, 2009, 10:18:56 PM
I'd like to see the bump steer or roll steer graphs. It's not necessarily how the geometry's accomplished but rather that it follows the correct path and that it locates the wheel firmly in position without binding.

I was intrigued by the use of brazing. We used to use it on road racing cars years ago very successfully. I'm not so sure that it's not a better solution than mig welding because too many people use migs with not enough power and not enough skill. With brazing the process goes slowly enough that the operator can see when he's getting proper wetting action on both of the pieces being joined. The process also causes less distortion.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2009, 12:54:41 PM
John & Peter;

The upper links are not exactly the same length and the chassis mounting points are not quite in the same plane. This geometry is almost identical to the original Porsche 996 rear suspension but modified to replace rubber bushings with adjustable rod end bearings in threaded steel tubes.

I haven't run any graphs yet but I've checked the bump steer manually and it looks OK. When I'm further along I'll graph it and the camber & caster angles over the full suspension travel.

"Braze welding" has been the norm for many years, especially in the UK. Race car tube chassis were fabricated by this method and it is still used for motorcycle and custom bike frames. I like All State #11FC and Harris #17FC rod-- nickel silver has a tensile strength of 80,000 to 90,000 lb/sq in. This is far higher than the parent metal, mild steel. The lack of distortion and low built- in stress is a real plus.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on June 09, 2009, 12:50:33 AM
Neil....

Are you planning on running the car this Speed Week?


Also.......

Do you fancy yourself more Hardcastle or McCormick?

-JK
LOL!

~JH
Title: Brazed joints
Post by: floydjer on June 09, 2009, 11:37:32 AM
Weren`t "Bird cage" Maserati frames completely brazed? J.B.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 09, 2009, 12:04:29 PM
JH;

Wrong car; that "Coyote" in the early episodes of Hardcastle & McCormick was a slightly modified Manta Montage-- a different car from the Manta Mirage. A Montage looked very much like Rex Svoboda's McLaren-- not surprising since the Montage was a copy of a McLaren M6GT. Later in the series they used a cobbled- up DeLorean because Brian had a hard time getting in & out of the Montage.
The Mirage was a copy of a McLaren M8 Can- Am car except they converted the open cockpit to a closed coupe which should have lower drag.
Here are photos of the two different cars-- neither one is mine. Note the "Rockford Files" location.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 09, 2009, 12:07:08 PM
JB;

I don't know about the Maserati "Birdcage" but most tube chassis of that era were braze welded with nickel silver.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 10, 2009, 12:46:50 PM
JH;

My car isn't going to be ready for SW this August but it should be there next year. I wish I could find a place near here to make some shakedown runs before towing it all the way up to Bonneville.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2009, 09:22:35 PM
I’ve made a bit of progress on my black Mirage—not as much as I’d like—but progress nonetheless.  I thought I’d show what an inverted Porsche G50 in a Mirage looks like.

 It does stick out the rear a bit but it is not too bad. My Bonneville class (BGMS) requires a parachute so I needed to cut away a portion of the rear fiberglass anyway to clear the ‘chute line. It has to be attached to the chassis of course, not the body, so the clearance I cut for the G50 plus its rear mount will work for the ‘chute as well. I cut away the recessed area where the tail lights & license plate was mounted and set the rear body section on temporarily to check the dimensions. I need to cut away about 3” from the rear of the carb opening in the top of the body to allow the body to slide forward to where it should be. It is hanging up on my Crower FI manifold right now.

I did move my engine about 1” to the rear of its original location to give me a bit more room to access the stuff mounted on the front of the block. The body is propped up in the rear temporarily and hasn’t been positioned carefully—this is just a rough trial fit. I mounted a round pine panel to simulate a wheel/tire for checking the clearances. The diameter is 24 ¼” , smaller than I’d like but it was the closest thing I could find. I don’t have any wheels with a 5 x 130mm bolt pattern yet to use for mock- up.

The rear hoop of the roll cage still needs to be installed (on the backside of the bulkhead and there will be two tubes connecting the F & R hoops. The Inconel firewall will be riveted to the hoop and chassis bulkhead.

See you at the Salt Talks!  Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


 

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on July 18, 2009, 09:44:51 PM
Neil, looking good see you in a few days. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 26, 2009, 06:43:25 PM
I think the top of the Mirage rear body is not stiff enough to withstand substantial aerodynamic downforce-- the fiberglass is not as thick as one made for the street. I had a few lengths of hat- section 0.035" titanium that I bought surplus some time ago and this seems to be a good way to stiffen the body. I cut & trimmed the hat section, drilled a pattern of #11 holes in it and then match- drilled the fiberglass so that I can rivet it into place. I have some large- head Allfast rivets that I'll install. The photos are of the hat section held in place by cylindrical Cleco fasteners and one of the rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on July 26, 2009, 11:33:59 PM
Neal, I know you are a smart guy but I am not sure those plywood wheels are going to provide enough traction!!!

Waaaay to skinny...you will need at least 1.5" of plywood for a car that weight.

LOL.

~JH
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 27, 2009, 03:14:46 PM
JH;

If I paint "Goodyear" on them do you think I can get through tech?  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 19, 2009, 09:21:58 PM
I have been doing rough trial fits on my black Mirage body and trimming away fiberglass to clear the instrument panel, roll cage hoops and bracing, and chassis modifications. Cutting fiberglass is not fun but I try to keep the dust under some degree of control by vacuuming often.

I use a pneumatic “body saw” that I bought at Harbor freight on sale for around $15 and it was a good bargain. It uses cut- down blades like a saber saw but it can trim tight radius cuts. The blades that HF sells for it are nothing to write home about but they work and aren’t hard to replace. I’d like to find some bi- metal blades for it but I suppose I could grind down some good saber saw blades but I’ll use up the cheap ones first.

Here is what the front hoop of my roll cage looks like. The tubing between the front & rear hoops are not installed yet.

Here is the driver’s view through the windshield.

That’s it for now. I’m listening to Renata Tebaldi singing Madam Butterfly on the workshop stereo and now getting back to work on the Mirage.

 Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on August 19, 2009, 10:48:31 PM
Got too dam'm many switches -- they'll only get you in trouble when someone forgets to throw one.  We're Neanderthal -- if the car starts, it's ready to run.  Read on another thread today about someone forgetting to turn something on -- and I showed some restraint because of my respect for them.  Didn't make a comment (hope they don't read this!).  I don't know how many engines have melted down between the three and the four because someone forgot to turn something on.

Maybe you're gonna use it on the street and I'm way off base (this from the guy who left the injector cover on, but we made it almost to the two and didn't hurt anything).

Stan Back
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: willieworld on August 19, 2009, 11:37:26 PM
manta  is that front roll cage hoop welded to the frame or just to a sheet metal door jam   i cant tell from the pics  willie buchta
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JimL on August 20, 2009, 01:39:34 AM
manta22.....use the good bi-metal blades (I get them at McFadden-Dale, but any good industrial hardware should have them)....you just grab with a pair of pliers and snap them off where you want.  They fit that air saw well, but the saw wears out after a while.

Works good for the price..... I cut a complete trailer hitch out of my flatbed last Saturday, and some of the metal was 3/4" solid bar stock!  Now the saw is getting gutless....time for another!

Regards, JimL
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on August 20, 2009, 09:03:01 AM
Been there done that on the switches on the water pump---lol---we now turn every thing on then the master---well we leave everything on except the MASTER  turn one on ---we will work toward a simpler car---and most people think the RATICAL is primitive----lol----we now have lights that can be seen to indicate on---oh by the way year before last we found out a not vented fuel cell doesn make a good water tank---it has ballon tendices  can pop of body panels which cause right turns---lol :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 20, 2009, 01:07:58 PM
Stan:

Those are actually two toggle switches (master on/off & ignition on/off) plus a row of circuit breakers that can also function as switches. In operation, the whole row is in the "up" position. Any one not turned on can easily be seen. I haven't installed the switch guard on the ignition on/off switch yet. The round one is a starter pushbutton.

Willie:

The front hoop of the roll cage is welded to 2" x 2" x 0.120 chassis tubes. There are also forward braces between the hoop and the chassis. I haven't tied the forward & rear cage hoops together yet. The door jamb is fiberglass. There is a steel tube structure underneath.

JimL;

Thanks for the tip on bi- metal blades-- I'll try breaking some off to fit the saw.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 25, 2009, 08:55:19 PM
My Manta Mirage fiberglass body has pop-up headlights and I wanted to make SURE they didn't "pop- up" at speed so I fabricated some covers out of 0.040" 6061- T6 aluminum sheet and riveted them in place. The rivets are 5/32" flat- head AVEX rivets with a closed end. I used these so the heads didn't protrude into the airflow and so the salt thrown up by my front tires won't wick up into the rivets from their back end. The hole locations were laid out and center punched, drilled #20, and countersunk with a 100 degree piloted cutter in a ajdustable- stop counterbore. A coat of zinc chromate primer completed the job.

Thank goodness for a pneumatic rivet puller!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: doug odom on August 25, 2009, 10:46:19 PM
Neil, I take hack saw blades and break them off to use in my air saw. I will also grind the back side down to make them thin when I need to cut tight turns. Works great on fiberglass. It is a little more work on aluminum. If I mark it on top and hold the saw under the sheet and pull it toward me with just the blade showing it will do a nice job.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on August 26, 2009, 12:12:01 AM
Neil, being an MS just wondering why you didnt opt for removing the hinge and fill the seams for the pop ups to shave the lights out for smooth fenders. Being close (or in) to the wetted surface area I would think that you could loose a good bit of drag by not having the headlight seams. Is this a vehicle that may see the street now and again?

Just wondering

~JH
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 26, 2009, 01:03:14 PM
JH;

Street..? Probably not-- I'm committed; the roll cage kind of precludes that anyway. :-P

These aluminum covers are easier for me to make than to fool around with fiberglass-- I'm just not very good at 'glassing. The aluminum is only 0.040", has tapered edges and the rivets are flush so the airflow disturbance should be minimal. If this were a fast streamliner I'd do this differently.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 26, 2009, 08:14:00 PM
I finished the right- hand headlight pop- up cover this afternoon and riveted it on. It looks a bit strange in the zinc chromate yellowish- green color. I'll paint them black later.
The fiberglass body under the nose was missing an angle piece to clamp it up to the tube structure around the nose and it was sagging down (unacceptable!) so I rummaged around in my surplus collection and found a 2024-T3 "Z" section extrusion and used that to fix this problem. This is visible in the lower edge of the nose air intake-- the black bar with a row of screw heads visible.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 25, 2009, 05:21:32 PM
Progress has slowed to a crawl but there are a few new things evident on my BGMS build. The top tubes tying the front & rear roll cage hoops together are in place but not yet tack welded. There will be a titanium sheet across the top of these tubes to stiffen & strengthen the structure. I hope to get back to work in earnest next week.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on December 25, 2009, 06:26:59 PM
You gonna run a radiator and not a tank? I ask because it looks like I can see one under the hood exit.
A rad wouldnt be my first choice.

ALSO~ How can you stand to work in a shop with so much dirt on the floor!  :-D
(I could only wish mine looked like that)

~JH
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 25, 2009, 06:42:10 PM
JH;

Yes, that's a Howe aluminum radiator up front. I might like to run my car in a few events like "Track Days" so a water tank was out.

I chose that floor color because I was tired of losing small parts that I dropped on a gray floor.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: hotschue on December 25, 2009, 09:15:22 PM
Hello Neil,  Good to see you working on the project, it's looking good...Friend of yours stopped by the shop last week, John Sable, to inspect my nose cone plug.  He said, "making the mold there's nothing to it", easy for him to say...we'll see.  John will be making the trip to B'ville with us in '10.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: generatorshovel on December 25, 2009, 11:26:18 PM
Want to swap workshops ?
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t24/generatorshovel/BH%20DUST%2022-0909/Dust012.jpg)
Tiny
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 26, 2009, 01:44:36 PM
Thanks for the offer, Tiny-- I think I'll keep my workshop.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, Az
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 26, 2009, 04:36:31 PM
Hello Neil,  Good to see you working on the project, it's looking good...Friend of yours stopped by the shop last week, John Sable, to inspect my nose cone plug.  He said, "making the mold there's nothing to it", easy for him to say...we'll see.  John will be making the trip to B'ville with us in '10.

I haven't seen John in 40 years! He ran off a copy of his Corvair powered mid engine sports racer from his molds-- I still have that fiberglass body but its in ratty condition. Please tell John that I'm looking forward to seeing him again. I've attached a photo of his car at Summit Point in 1969; John is holding his daughter on the right and I'm adjusting the wing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 04, 2010, 11:59:00 AM
More progress yesterday-- I cut a sheet of 6Al- 4V titanium to fit across the top of my roll cage; a 0.050"sheet that is a shear panel to stiffen & strengthen the structure and keep my helmet off the salt if I roll the Mirage.  I used a plasma cutter to cut the titanium and then smoothed the edges with an angle grinder. Drilling all those holes was NO fun. I'll rivet it on after the chassis is finish welded and painted. By using C-clamps to hold the sheet to the tube and progressively drilling my hole pattern fron the center to the edges, the titanium sheet was formed to the top of the cage. Cleco spring fasteners held things in alignment but where the curvature was highest it required cylindrical Cleco fasteners. This type has very high pull- down capability. When the chassis is finish welded and painted this sheet will be riveted on with Monel CherryMax rivets. These have an A286 stem and are rated at slightly over 1600 lbs shear strength each!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on January 04, 2010, 12:39:07 PM
Neil, looking good. As always neat work takes longer but always worth it in the long run.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on January 04, 2010, 12:42:56 PM
Neil, are you sure you wanted to drill all those holes in your roll structure?  will that make your cage weaker.    Please be sure all of those holes are well sealed or your cage will rust from the inside.  Just a little concerned.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 04, 2010, 03:29:25 PM
Neil,
I probably need to insert my 2 cents worth on the rivetting the Ti panel to the roll cage structure, I think I agree with Stainless that drilling that many holes in the roll bar structure may not be the best idea, you may want to check with the SCTA to make sure it is acceptable.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 04, 2010, 05:08:21 PM
Rex & Stainless1;

I looked at what those holes would do to the tube structure and concluded that riveting the shear plate to the tubing would make little if any difference in tubing strength or yield. The roll cage is 1 3/4" dia x 0.120" wall thickness mild steel tubing and the Monel rivets are only 0.170" in diameter. These CherryMax rivets are actually stronger than the steel tubing and pulling the rivets expands the rivet body which carries the stress loads through the steel. An unfilled hole is weaker than one with an expanded high strength rivet.
I considered welding a sheet of cold- rolled steel across the top of the cage but it added weight where I didn't want it-- raising the CG of the car. That's something I'm trying to avoid.
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 15, 2010, 07:42:43 PM
Here is a photo of a trial fit of my firewall. It is 0.090" titanium and will be bolted in place to small tabs that are welded to the roll cage hoop and bracing tubes. The small gaps in the firewall will be sealed with 3M fire putty sealant.

The firewall will give good protection from a fire or engine blow- up. For heat insulation, I'll add a layer of woven ceramic fiber cloth.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 17, 2010, 08:26:15 PM
I installed a few safety pins to make SURE the rear body section of my black Mirage will not come loose at high speed-- remember what happened to Bruce McLaren. I've see a picture of one that came unlatched at just highway speeds-- not pretty; did lots of damage.  :cry:
 
The sides of a Mirage rear body have molded- in indentations for quick- release pins; Manta Cars installed them in their factory demonstrator MANTA 2. To take advantage of this method of rear body fastening, a vertical piece must be fabricated and bolted or welded to a side- pod chassis tube so that the pin has something to slip in to. Make the depth of the piece such that the quick- release pin balls pop out to lock it into place. I used 1/2" diameter pins made by Hartwell-- more surplus stuff.
 
A second piece of insurance is the pair of "hood pins" that I installed on the top of the rear body. The 1/2" aluminum pin bolts to a steel bracket welded to the rear hoop of my roll cage. This came from Speedway Motors. Since the rear body of a Mirage is hinged at the rear, the front closes on an arc rather than straight down; this made it necessary to angle the pin slightly backward and make the hole slightly oval to accommodate the arc.
 
These details make the rear body mounting very solid and safe. I thought these photos might help explain how they were mounted-- sorry about the poor focus..
 
Look closely at your car-- could it come loose? If you have the least doubt, install some extra safety pins!
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 05, 2010, 08:02:14 PM
Finding racing wheels to fit the five bolt 14.5 x 130mm bolt circle of my Porsche 996 rear hubs did not work out. The only ones I found were $$$$$$$$$ and I wouldn't have wanted to expose them to salt anyway. I abandoned that idea after I found that the existing bolt holes in the hub could be re- machined for larger holes needed to accomodate pressed- in 5/8" wheel studs. This new 5 x 5" pattern will allow me to use Bassett stock car wheels. I will pick up my hubs and brake rotors tomorrow from the machine shop so some progress is happening.

It was necessary to ruin the rear wheel bearings (a double- row ball bearing) taking the hubs out of the aluminum uprights but I probably should have replaced them with new ones anyway. I removed the remainder of the bearing, cleaned the upright, treated it with phosphoric acid, and then gave it a thin coat of zinc chromate primer.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 06, 2010, 12:44:21 AM
Neil,
How did you get the hub and bearings out of the up-right. Press? On aluminum parts with pressed in bearings I would usually go with the "blue wrench" to get the bearing race to expand and then every thing should fall out. Your progress is looking great.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on April 06, 2010, 05:19:13 AM
A press is not the way to remove bearings from aluminum or magnesium castings. Rather than the blue wrench, which does work, I've usually used an old kitchen stove heated to 450 deg. F. Leave the castings with bearings in for a while and the bearings will pretty much fall out. Do the opposite to install the new bearings, with the new bearings at room temperature. This sure saves wear and tear on the bearing bore of the casting.

Because I'm a bachelor the kitchen stove may be substituted. Definitely don't even think of doing that unless you want to attain that status!

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 06, 2010, 05:36:20 PM
Rex & Pete;

I heated the aluminum upright with a propane torch until it was hot to the touch and then used a bearing puller I bought at Harbor Freight to withdraw the bearing. The kit is called "Front- Wheel Drive Bearing Puller Kit" and cost about $60. I'll use it in the reverse manner to install the new bearing; I have both rear wheel bearings cooling in my freezer right now.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on April 06, 2010, 09:06:00 PM
My bet is that you're not getting to 200. Cooling the bearings does very little, on the other hand the heat in the aluminum makes a big difference because of the differences in coefficient of expansions. At 450 the bearings will literally drop out and drop in.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 06, 2010, 09:14:37 PM
Pete;

You're probably right-- more like 150F is my guess. The key is temperature difference so cooling the bearings to 0F will help a little.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on April 06, 2010, 09:18:35 PM
My point Neil was that steel expands and contracts much less than the aluminum. The problem, as I see it, is that any time you press the bearings in and out you put wear on the bore and sooner or later you run into a problem with the bearing getting loose in the bore. The oven trick is commonly used by most serious race teams.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 06, 2010, 09:21:38 PM
Yeah, I know about the oven trick but if I tried that my wife might stop using it-- I'd starve. :)

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on April 06, 2010, 09:48:07 PM
That's why you keep an old stove in the garage, for bearings and pizza. The oil and grease fumes add a little flavour. :-D :-D :evil:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 07, 2010, 05:43:59 PM
The machine shop finished modifying my rear hubs to a 5" bolt circle and pressed in the 5/8" studs. The brake rotors were also modified to this new pattern.
 
Here is a photo of the rotor slipped over the studs:

Bolted to the wheel it looks like this:

The rear of the wheel (15 x 9.5) looks like this with the hub & rotor mounted:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 10, 2010, 07:53:11 PM
Here is what the left rear Porsche 996 upright looks like with the a-arms attached.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 10, 2010, 07:57:53 PM
Trial fit of tires-- front tires are sitting at full droop-- normal ride height will put them up into the wheel wells. The front wheels aren't here yet.
Everything is still under construction.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on March 18, 2011, 02:49:09 PM
Neil,
We need an update.

Thank you, Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: maguromic on March 18, 2011, 04:16:41 PM
Neil, Always enjoyed looking at your build, please post some more..  :cheers: Tony
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 18, 2011, 05:00:52 PM
Don & Tony;

Thanks for your interest. I looked at my build diary and it has been a long time since I updated it. I hadn't realized that it had been that long!

I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked on my car but it hasn't been completely neglected. Late last year, Joline and I went on a South American cruise which ate up quite a bit of time. We boarded ship in Buenos Aires and sailed to the Falkland Islands and continued down to cape Horn, Patagonia, and Tierra del Fuego, through the Strait of Magellan and the Drake Passage, finally ending up in Valparaiso. We spent a little time there and then flew from Santiago to Easter Island (Rapa Nui) for a week-- a totally cool place. Then back to Santiago and to Iquique, up north in Chile where I worked for a time 15 years ago. It was interesting to visit there-- the city has grown considerably. Then we flew back to Santiago and then home to Tucson. It was a long trip but we thoroughly enjoyed it.

Getting the bad cold/flu or whatever is going around hasn't helped, either plus I've been working on some consulting jobs that take time but at least earn $.

I did get my front wheels-- Bassett racing wheels and the Goodyears are mounted and the wheels are bolted on. I've been struggling with my rear suspension design; it is a copy of a Porsche 996 since those are the uprights that I've used, but I have not been happy with the bump steer of the original Porsche geometry so I've made a few changes that did improve it. Finally I decided that I needed to get this under control once and for all, so I built a balsa wood model of the rear suspension so that I could visualize what was happening as the wheel moved up and down. It helped me understand the 5-link geometry but to get everything analyzed accurately I needed to use a computer. I found that Performance Trends offers a full-featured demo of their Suspension Analyzer package that runs for 10 days. This was the only software that is configured for analyzing a 5-link design. After measuring all the ball joint locations in X,Y, & Z, I could work out where the rod-end bearing attachment brackets needed to be located on the chassis to give me the wheel motion that I need. Cutting off some of the existing brackets and re-mounting them is what I'm doing right now.

My friend John Horsman loaned me a large folder of 200mph aerodynamic data that JWA/Gulf Racing had taken in the full-scale wind tunnel at MIRA (Motor Industry Research Associan in the UK). He has data on the Ford GT40, Porsche 917, and the series of Mirage sports racing cars. There was frontal area, drag, front lift/downforce, and rear lift/downforce. These were also performed at yaw angles of 0,5, and 10 degrees! These figures are not directly applicable to my car but there is enough similarity that I can do a reasonable estimate of the horsepower needed at any speed.

Well guys-- back to work.
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on March 18, 2011, 11:50:54 PM
Just re-read the whole build.  Good to catch up on this one, Neil. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on March 19, 2011, 12:56:09 AM
I just read the whole build for the first time. Love the body choice!

Great build. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Tman on March 19, 2011, 01:23:42 AM
I just read the whole build for the first time. Love the body choice!

Great build. :cheers:

Same here, that is a saxy hot rod! Love the fabrication.......................sheets of Ti? WTF!?!?!? That is crazy talk!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 19, 2011, 05:00:55 PM
Tman;

".......................sheets of Ti? WTF!?!?!? That is crazy talk!"

Yeah, I'm finally finding a use for all that wierd surplus stuff that I've picked up over the years! 8-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on March 19, 2011, 05:33:56 PM
Well, Neil, if you ever need some help cleaning up your garage, I'd be happy to bring a trailer over. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on March 19, 2011, 06:29:59 PM
What....all that and no posted trip pics????

Doing S.A. is something my wife and I have been planning on doing for a few years (not a cruise however).
Good to hear you are doing well and had a good time on the trip

~JH
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 19, 2011, 07:13:34 PM
MM;

Someday my wife is going to have one heck of an estate sale-- hopefully not in the near future, though.  :-D

JH;

I've got a ton of pictures but I'll only post two; the sun at 56 degrees South-- Cape Horn and Moai stone statues on Rapa Nui (Easter Island). A cruise is a pretty good way of seeing a lot of South America. If you go, I'd suggest Chile as a destination. The people are friendly, the country is stable and safe, and the gov't, police, etc are NOT corrupt. Some places in SA are downright dangerous. It is NOT like Mexico at all.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Tman on March 19, 2011, 07:19:59 PM
MM and I will be there tomorrow to help you catalog and dispose off all thet surplus! :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 19, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
 :-D :-D :-D :-D :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rich Shiedlak on March 27, 2011, 11:58:47 PM
Neal,
    Great build!Keep up the great work! I wish I'd of looked you up while working down in Nogales last year,maybe next time we set up shop down there.I have a friend in Oro Valley named Francis,have you met?He's built a very nice LS model A roadster.Take care.Rich
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 28, 2011, 10:13:42 PM
Rich;

Thanks for the message-- if you are in this part of AZ again, definitely look us up. No, I don't think I've met Francis.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 26, 2012, 06:47:52 PM
It has been some time since I posted anything on my build diary-- progress has been slow but not zero. I bought a suspension analyzer program to optimize the geometry of my front & rear suspension and found that I could improve it by revising the pick-up points on the chassis and extending the inner tie rod ball on the steering rack out by 2" on each side. These changes are taking time and I've been doing quite a bit of consulting work the past few months so not as much has been accomplished as I would like.

Today I finished mounting two brackets for a front anti-roll (sway) bar. My friend, Wade, is going to bend the 13/16" tubing for me and it will rotate on two Fabroid bearings, each mounted in a 7075-T6 plate. The mounting bolts are NOT from the hardware store.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on February 26, 2012, 07:09:50 PM
Love aircraft hardware, looks nice.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 26, 2012, 07:42:39 PM
Neil,
How do you get the bent tubing through the bearings? Are they oversize and then use a split bushing?

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on February 26, 2012, 07:48:32 PM
I was wondering as well, maybe put the bearings on first then bend.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 26, 2012, 11:00:08 PM
Rex;

Glen is right, the bearings slip on over the tube and then the bends are made. I'll use split shaft collars as thrust bearings to keep the tube located laterally.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 27, 2012, 02:43:17 PM
Nice build Neil, glad to see you are back at it.


Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 27, 2012, 04:25:57 PM
In answer to a question about how the radiator is mounted in my black Mirage, I'll insert some pictures. I realized that I had never taken any pictures of the radiator and its support structure so I went to the shop and snapped a few. First is the general layout. Second is is how I added a few small square tubes for support. Third, to prevent fatigue cracks in the mounting flanges, I added some anti-vibration grommets to the mounting bolts.


This is a Howe aluminum radiator. I hope this explains how (no pun intended ) it's mounted.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 27, 2012, 04:28:06 PM
Somehow the other two pictures didn't get attached.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 23, 2012, 07:13:16 PM
I've made a little progress on my black Mirage in the past few days. I measured very carefully from the outer chassis tubes and made a "chalk line" on the floor under the car, indicating its exact center line. Now I have reference points to re-position my rear suspension inner brackets.
 
I fabricated a couple of end fittings for my front anti-roll bar and have half finished the links and upright attachment brackets but I haven't received the anti-roll bar back from Wade, who is bending it for me. It is probably wise to mount the bar first and then finish the rest of that attachment.
 
Today I did get a pair of Tilton fluid reservoirs mounted. They are bolted to an aluminum bracket which mounts on the top forward bulkhead tube with Riv-Nut threaded inserts. I haven't pushed the top & bottom of the reservoirs together yet (they seal with an O-ring) so that I can cut off the bottom hose barb and then thread it for a nylon compression fitting. The connection from the reservoirs are 1/4" Nylo-Seal tubing. One MC is for the brake system and the other is for the hydraulic cylinder that operates the clutch.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: dw230 on March 23, 2012, 09:31:28 PM
Neil,

I grew up with "chalk on the floor" designs. May I suggest some method of securing the centerline and chassis to the floor? Arizona may get an earthquake and then the fixture goes all to heck. Hate to see that car crap walking down the track.

DW
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 23, 2012, 11:12:02 PM
 Dan;

Rest assured that the centerline (orange flourescent nylon cord) is securely taped down to the floor. Now, if AZ has an earthquake .... :)
Actually, I marked the centerline on both ends of the chassis, too, so putting it back would only require a plumb bob.

BTW, when I was a kid, we lived in the outskirts of Tokyo right after WW II so I'm certainly familiar with earthquakes. We had them every few weeks-- small ones, fortunately.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 25, 2012, 07:13:53 PM
Little construction details take time but are either necessary or sometimes just worth doing. My Tilton brake fluid reservoirs are made with hose barb fittings but I wanted to run nylon lines with compression fittings so, there being no other choice, I sawed the hose barb off, drilled the hole larger and tapped it 7/16-20 UNF, which is the thread used on a 1/4" nylon fitting. The plastic is not very thick on the reservoir bottom, so I used a thin nut on the inside to make the fitting connection stronger. The fittings I used are "262-N 04", that I bought from Aircraft Spruce; they are intended to mate two 1/4" tubes but I simply removed the nut from one end and threaded that end into the reservoir with the 7/16-20 nut inside.

To insure a leak-tight connection, I applied a bit of Hylomar sealant (the blue stuff) to the threads before screwing it together. Now it looks like this: (see photo)
To connect the tubing, it is simply pushed into the end and the compression nut tightened snugly. It's nylon so the nut needs to be tight but not so tight that the threads are stripped.
Yes, I cleaned up the excess Hylomar.  :-)

Regards, Neil   Tucson AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on March 25, 2012, 07:57:44 PM
It looks more like what one would see in a hospital than in a race car.  :-D

Thanks for getting back on track and posting on this one. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 11, 2012, 08:41:58 PM
Wade finished bending my front anti-roll bar, so I was able to do a trial fit and then fabricate the necessary lower bracket to connect it to the upright. Originally I had intended to use a pinch tube bracket to connect the bar itself but, after mounting the bar, it looked like there was very little space between the coil-over spring and the upright so I just drilled a series of 1/4" holes in the bar so the very short link can be adjusted on the bar. The bottom bracket was fabricated out of some aluminum angle extrusion that I already had and it is mounted on the existing lower ball joint thread. I also drilled a series of holes in it for the link adjustment.

The link was made of aluminum thick-wall tubing that Coleman Racing sells; it's ID is the correct size to run a 3/8-24 tap through-- neat stuff. The rod ends are some nice surplus ones made by Astro back when they specialized in aerospace bearings. The ball has a 1/4" hole and the shank is 3/8-24 UNF. Both ends of the link are tapped with a right-hand thread since those were the rod ends that I had so the link has to be undone on one end to be adjusted. That doesn't seem to be much of a problem since they will be adjusted only once.

I was apprehensive about the anti-roll bar clearance as the front wheels were turned left & right but I guess I measured things right-- there is no interference.


Now I need to quit looking at these pictures and get back to work.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on April 11, 2012, 08:48:29 PM
Neil
Are the Heim joints alum, or steel. Alum is not allowed. Also will need washers so the bearing can't come out of the joint. You probably already know this. The build is looking great.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 11, 2012, 09:17:26 PM
Thanks, Glen-- yes, I know about the washers; this is just a trial fit.

No, these are 17-4PH stainless steel aerospace rod ends. I'd never use aluminum rod ends in a structural application-- to prone to fatigue failure.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 17, 2012, 07:44:26 PM
Maybe it wasn't my best idea  :-P-- the lower bracket does rotate with the upright. The bar stiffness calculated by my software allows an adjustment fairly close to the ball joint pivot point so there is not much movement other than rotation which the link can handle. The idea was that for LSR I only needed enough steering angle to stay within an 80 ft wide lane so it seemed like a good idea.
 
I thought about this further-- maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all. A severely limited steering would make getting the car on & off the trailer a nightmare, as well as getting around the pits and recovering a spin on the track. Maybe the tech inspectors wouldn't even accept it.
 
I am going to re-do the lower attachment point so that it attaches to the lower A-arm. It looks like I have just enough room to clear the coil-over so I'll make a cardboard template to try it and then fabricate one in steel and weld it on.

Later....I think I've taken the front suspension off & on about 5 times in the last three days now but it finally looks OK. The anti-roll bar link clearance is tight but it does clear everything, even when the wheels are rotated lock-to-lock and up & down. I had to grind a bit off the lower suspension upright but only a little. I'll need to add a large washer to the top rod end bearing; this is required so that a separation of the ball from the housing doesn't let things get completely haywire.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on April 17, 2012, 08:18:41 PM
A severely limited steering would make getting the car on & off the trailer a nightmare . . .

That would be a resounding yes.  After going with 15" wheels, 22" drag fronts, and lowering the front end, I had to restrict the stops on the Midget to prevent rubbing on the inside of the fenders.  Even with an 80" wheelbase, my Dodge Magnum currently has a tighter turning radius than the Midget.

It's not a nightmare, but it does require Tylenol.  :wink:

Chris
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 17, 2012, 08:20:46 PM
I believe it Chris!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 30, 2012, 08:50:59 PM
I re-located the pickup point for the front anti-roll bar downlink to the lower a-arm. Now there is no problem, even with the steering lock-to-lock. I should have done it that way from the beginning!

After installing the front anti-roll bar I discovered that it interfered with the fluid (brake & clutch) reservoirs so it was necessary to make a new mounting bracket. I wasn't satisfied with that first one anyway so I rummaged through a box of surplus aluminum extrusions that had I bought from a guy on eBay. There was quite an assortment of sizes & shapes, mostly 7075-T351 from Boeing! I used two L-sections fastened together with 3/16" Huck Lockbolts. Pulling these were beyond the capability of most of my rivet guns as the have 114ksi stems, but a hand-operated hydraulic puller and all my hand strength finally managed to pop the stems.These are NEVER coming apart!

This was an exercise in overkill but it was partly an experiment to see how some of this stuff worked. Drilling 7075 with a new, sharp drill is an experience in itself.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 13, 2012, 06:29:00 PM
Despite the lack of any postings in the build diary lately, I've actually been working hard on the car. Unfortunately, the majority of my effort has been on re-doing the rear chassis so the suspension pick-up points are better located in the structure. This involved cutting out a part of the chassis tube structure and building it up again.
 
I found that the original Porsche geometry they used on their 996 was not very good in my application-- too much bump steer. I bought a program-- Suspension Analyzer v2.4-- and designed a 5-link suspension using the same Porsche 996 rear uprights but optimized its geometry. The new pick-up points on the chassis were not in the same place as I had originally put them, so things needed to be changed.
 
Why the 996 geometry wasn't as good as I would have liked might have been something to do with their use of compliant rubber bushings or maybe they were compensating for some other behavior-- who knows. Anyway, three steps forward and two steps back-- so it goes.

One minor detail was making a new mounts for the top attachment point for the rear coil-overs. I used surplus 1/2" titanium bolts and ground two flats on the round floating bushing so I could get a wrench on it to tighten the assembly.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on June 13, 2012, 06:55:24 PM
Looking good Neil, send more pictures of the rear end mods etc. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 13, 2012, 07:20:13 PM
Thanks, Glen; I'll take more pictures when I get the new chassis sub-frame tacked in place.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on June 13, 2012, 10:30:39 PM
three steps forward and two steps back-- so it goes.


Still puts you one step up, and let's you see where you're headed.  Looking forward to more pics - keep at it, Neil.

Chris
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on June 15, 2012, 02:38:15 AM
Hi Neil

The Carl Haas Can-Am team was next to our shop and i would stop and watch Colin & Gil set the bump steer, what a job to make all those adjustments and get it dialed in.

They would set the tub on 4 by 4's as the ride hight was 3 1/2" then hook up the music wire streched very tight and measure over to the rotor etc, wow that was 44 yrs ago in 68' and sad to say they are both gone now R.I.P. Cool Guys

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 15, 2012, 11:18:01 AM
Don;

We raced against that Carl Haas team back in '72 & '73-- thrilling times indeed.

It's easier these days to set up bump steer-- we have tools that didn't exist back then.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 15, 2012, 10:06:07 PM
Since I had to move a few bushings to accommodate my revised rear chassis design, I decided to max out the linkage by using Thomson Super-12 (3/4" ID) linear ball bushings and mil-spec Apex u-joints. The u-joints are bolted rather than welded to 3/4" OD stainless tubing so that the linkage can be disassembled easily and so the u-joints are not ruined by welding heat. If the holes are very carefully drilled there will be no problems with play at the tube/u-joint connection. I used thin wall chrome moly tubing for the bushing housing simply because thin-wall seamless mild steel is hard to find and used 1 1/4" snap rings to retain it within the housing. Getting the bushings to align with each other was a chore and after welding a support structure on, some shimming was required.
 
Notice that since I ran the shift tube along the right side of the engine & transaxle, I had to reverse the rotation of the tube to get the proper shift pattern for the G50. You can see how I did that in one of the pictures below.
 
This is my "swinging link" solution to the lower pivot problem of the original design. The link is threaded so it can be adjusted fore and aft. I mounted the bushing to the read so it would have clearance for the 2nd & 4th gear position. Lots of chips on the floor from drilling holes for the Nutsert threaded inserts for 1/4-28 bolts:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 15, 2012, 10:19:15 PM
Well, the revised 5-link rear suspension is finally together-- at least until it is time to pull everything apart for final welding, blasting, painting and riveting panels on. Whew!
 
The rear suspension was based on Porsche 996 geometry but modified by a computer analysis which showed that an improved geometry could be achieved by moving the inner arm pick-up points on the chassis. That made it necessary to extensively modify the existing chassis tube structure. There is more cut-up tubing in the scrap pile now.

The right side headers are not installed yet on the right side. Spring rate is 400 lbs/inch, free length is 10".

Rear view. The paper taped to the floor was graph paper that I used to plot the X-Y locations of the pick-up points on the chassis. The parachute attachment swivel is visible on top of the G50.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on July 15, 2012, 10:59:12 PM
Looks great nice work :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jonny Hotnuts on July 17, 2012, 09:40:07 PM
Neil,

Just wondering if you have thoughts of doing some SCCA road course running with this car also????
Also.....its looking like it getting really close.....any planned event debut???

~JH
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 17, 2012, 11:24:38 PM
JH;

Actually, it probably could run in road racing events but with all the SCTA required stuff-- heavy duty roll cage, etc-- it would probably be too heavy to be very competitive in SCCA class racing. It might be fun to use it as a "track day" ride, though. There are still lots of things to get done so I'll make no predictions. I'd just like to get it finished before I'm too old to drive it!
See you at Speed Week this year?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 19, 2012, 08:35:44 PM
Well, I may have changed my mind about painting the chassis. On the way home from lunch today with the "Car Guyz", I swung by a surplus place that I had not been in for a couple of years. There was mostly stuff that I wouldn't have carried home if it was free, but I spotted some cans of paint on a shelf and asked the guy what he wanted for the stuff.
 
"Hmmm... what'll you give me?"
"A couple of bucks a can"
"How many do you want?"
"I'll give you a 20 dollar bill for 10 cans"
"Uh. OK"
 
Thus I now have 10 cans (that was all he had) of Aliphatic Isocyanate Resin MIL-PRF-85258D, Type 1, Class H, Color 33538 Yellow. It’s a 2-part military/aerospace paint that is really tough and resistant to weathering.
 
Here is the Federal Standard Color: http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=33538&size=s  Not exciting but OK. Each can when mixed with its hardener makes 1 quart so I should have enough to paint my chassis.
 
The hard, tough polyurethane coating has the same drawback as powder coating-- it is hard to repair or modify-- but since the paint is a much thinner coating than powder coating, it should be easier to sand off. This paint should give good protection against salt corrosion-- better than spray-can enamel. Has anyone tried this type of coating?
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: maguromic on July 19, 2012, 09:36:51 PM
Neil, Nice find, and I wouldn't say it was an exiting find.  Thanks for the updates on the build I really enjoy reading it.  Tony
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2012, 06:36:16 PM
I have done a trial fit of my fuel cell and it fits-- tight but it fits. This is a 10 gallon Fuel Safe ProCell bladder in an aluminum can with a slip-fit top-- called a "shoe box". I need to unbolt the filler neck and re-position it and add some anti-chafe strips to the can but the main thing is that it fits in the side pod. I'll cover the top with an aluminum panel.
This fuel cell has a ball check valve in the vent and a flapper valve in the filler neck to prevent fuel from running out if the car is upside down.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 21, 2012, 08:41:53 PM
I spent today cleaning up a dry sump oil tank that I plan to put into the black Mirage. It is a Patterson aluminum tank, about 12" diameter and 15" tall-- probably 4 gallons. The outside was dirty so I scrubbed it with Dawn and water using an old paint brush. Most of the dirt came off so I used the remainder of an old can of brake cleaner to spray the inside of the two tank halves. The rubber sealing ring looked OK after I cleaned it so I'll reassemble the whole thing tomorrow. and do a trial fit.

Although I don't plan to use a dry sump on my first engine since it is only a wet sump, I want to mount the oil tank in the chassis so it will be there when I install my sprint car engine, which is only a dry sump setup. Right now I'm planning on mounting it vertically (of course) in the rear of the left-hand side pod. I measured it and it will just fit. I may mount one of my automatic extinguishers in the same spot in the right side pod...we'll see.

I'll need a couple of feet of rubber cushioning for the 1" stainless T-bolt mounting straps since those were somewhat deteriorated. It took a long time searching the Internet to find the stuff. Aircraft Spruce has it but it was just luck that I found it there. Google searching wasn't turning up anything, at least using all of the descriptive terms that I could think of. I'll post a few pictures when I get the tank mounted.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Tman on September 21, 2012, 10:10:01 PM
Slow steps aren't they!?

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 21, 2012, 10:46:46 PM
Unfortunately true, Tman.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 26, 2012, 08:30:22 PM
I've been doing some metal work the past few days and now have my fire bottles and fuel cell in place. They will have to be re-installed many times before the car is actually finished, of course.
 
Here is the mounting bracket for a 10 lb automatic extinguisher (it goes off like an overhead sprinkler system-- it senses heat) and a manually-actuated 5 lb Fire Bottle. Both are Halon type extinguishers. I bought the machined aluminum mount on eBay; it is ex-NASCAR and so is the white 10 lb bottle. It will be mounted in the left side pod, riveted in place under the stressed panel, ahead of the dry sump oil tank.


The 10 gallon Fuel Safe fuel cell is mounted in the right side pod; in the rear of that pod is another manually-actuated 10 lb Fire Bottle. I'd like to have the stressed panels anodized but they are 0.063" 7075-T6 which does not color anodize well. I'll probably just finish them with a fine grit orbital sander, clean & prep, and paint them with a zinc chromate primer. They won't be riveted in place until the chassis is finish welded, sandblasted, cleaned & prepped, and painted.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 26, 2012, 08:46:16 PM
Fire Bottles
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 26, 2012, 08:47:42 PM
Oil Tank
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 26, 2012, 08:49:08 PM
Fuel cell and Fire Bottle:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 26, 2012, 09:51:03 PM



I'd just like to get it finished before I'm too old to drive it!

Neil, I just re-read your diary front to back.  We both started our projects in June of '08, and it occurred to me that if you don't get crackin', I might just beat you to the salt!

I'm amazed at the detail in your preparation.  This one will be spectacular.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 26, 2012, 10:00:31 PM
MM;

Thanks-- I'm trying to keep some progress going but not letting it consume my life-- after all, this is supposed to be fun and so far it is!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: krusty on September 27, 2012, 06:15:21 AM

     Try Patterson Enterprises in Van Nuys, CA for the strap cushioning material. They are manufacturers of dry sump oil tanks and should be able to ddirect you to a source.        vic
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 27, 2012, 11:32:55 AM
Thanks, Krusty. I received the cushioning strips yesterday from Aircruft Spruce-- it is a perfect replacement. BTW, I was wrong about the diameter of my oil tank; it is 9" dia-- not 12".

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jimmy six on September 27, 2012, 12:30:14 PM
Manta. Attach a stick on heater to the lower part of your oil tank. (available from McMaster-Carr and other places) make sure you cover it with some other insulation to heat your oil and not loose any to atmosphere. About 10-15 minutes can really make a difference on starting youe engine in the morning......Good luck....
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 27, 2012, 12:34:30 PM
J6;

Thanks for the suggestion. I think I have a couple of those around here. If I can find them I'll attach one to the oil tank as you suggested and another to the transaxle.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on September 27, 2012, 01:33:01 PM
For a small heater like you're seeking -- see if you can find one of the "wrap-around" heaters designed for heating/keeping warm a car or truck batter.  They're about 1/2" thick and maybe 18" x 6" tall, and have straps/ribbons on the ends to allow you to tie it on in place. 

I suggest the wraparound style because it doesn't concentrate the heat in one place, as might spot heaters (that's why they call 'em SPOT heaters, after all), but rather over most of the 18 x 6 area.  Mine runs on 110VAC.  I use it in the barn (unheated) when I've got recalcitrant batteries to try to start an engine.  It works well.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Tman on September 27, 2012, 03:11:34 PM
For a small heater like you're seeking -- see if you can find one of the "wrap-around" heaters designed for heating/keeping warm a car or truck batter.  They're about 1/2" thick and maybe 18" x 6" tall, and have straps/ribbons on the ends to allow you to tie it on in place. 

I suggest the wraparound style because it doesn't concentrate the heat in one place, as might spot heaters (that's why they call 'em SPOT heaters, after all), but rather over most of the 18 x 6 area.  Mine runs on 110VAC.  I use it in the barn (unheated) when I've got recalcitrant batteries to try to start an engine.  It works well.

My Ford Ranger came with one of those (good doner fodder) and the first battery lasted 11 YEARS! Keeping it warm in the cold months must have helped.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: hotrod on September 27, 2012, 03:43:32 PM
There is an OEM battery heater blanket available from any Subaru dealer that fits SSS's description nicely if you have 120v ac power.

http://compare.ebay.com/like/160876458552?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 27, 2012, 07:52:31 PM
Thanks all for the battery blanket idea. I'll see if I can find the ones I have before buying anything.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 27, 2012, 08:08:11 PM
Thanks all for the battery blanket idea. I'll see if I can find the ones I have before buying anything.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Hmmm . . . Tucson must not be your home town if you have multiple battery heaters. 

Those are definitely a northern tier option.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 27, 2012, 09:47:16 PM
MM;

Well, they aren't really "battery heaters" although they would probably work in that application. These are a couple of Watlow silicone rubber insulated patch heaters that I found on the surplus market years ago. See: http://www.watlow.com/products/heaters/flexible-silicone-heaters.cfm

Although it does get hot in the daytime here in the desert, it also gets cold at night due to our low humidity and the emissive properties of the soil-- our heat gets radiated away after the sun goes down so the temperature drops dramatically; a day/night temperature difference of 40 or 50 degrees isn't uncommon. Places with higher humidity such as Phoenix do not cool off nearly as much at night. Last winter we had a hard freeze that killed lots of vegetation.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jimmy six on September 28, 2012, 01:14:10 AM
The silly-cone rubberones are what I speak. a 2"x24" is $40.00 in McMaster-Carr highest wattage for that size is 480. Mak sure you insulate over the heater or it won't do much. I've used up to 2100 watts on my pan.......Good Luck
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: saltwheels262 on September 28, 2012, 07:18:02 PM
The silly-cone rubberones are what I speak. a 2"x24" is $40.00 in McMaster-Carr highest wattage for that size is 480. Mak sure you insulate over the heater or it won't do much. I've used up to 2100 watts on my pan.......Good Luck

I've used mcMaster Carr heaters that you speak of.
on motorcycle aluminum oil tanks.

what it is the best way to insulate them?
I know a lot of the heat is going into the atmosphere.

bf
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 15, 2012, 08:55:30 PM
I found a way of holding the hard line pieces together at their cut ends so that they can be trial-fitted into the chassis. Masking tape let the pieces fall apart so I tried using some aluminum foil tape that I bought at Home Depot-- voila! it worked like a charm. one photo shows how it is used.

The tape must be removed for welding the joints, but before the tape comes off, I made some index marks with a penile device punch on opposing ends so that I knew how it needed to be held in position for welding.
 
The silicone couplers and T-clamps are looking like they will make good connections between the 1.5" stainless tubing.The Ty-Wrap is temporary-- there will be clamps to hold the line in position on the chassis. I bought them from Columbia River Mandrel Bending-- good prices & fast shipping.
 

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Tman on October 15, 2012, 09:17:40 PM
You can take hose clamps and cut a couple slots in them to pre-fit tubes also. The slots allow you to tack weld them after you like the position.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 15, 2012, 09:40:45 PM
Thanks for that suggestion, Tman but I tried it on some bends and unless there was a fairly straight section under the clamp it would fall apart.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on October 15, 2012, 10:02:09 PM
Are you going to roll beads on the ends of those tubes?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 16, 2012, 11:59:38 AM
JD;

You bet! Without a bead the hose will eventually slip off. Thanks for the reminder.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jimmy six on October 16, 2012, 02:54:32 PM
Saltwheels. When I can I have the insulators at work make me pads to go over the stick on heaters. The are made by covering a hi-temp fiberglass 1" thick mat with a sliver cloth on one side and a stainless steel mesh on the other. The mesh go on the heater. They are held together with hog rings. I'm lucky enough to work at a power plant but most material is available from insulator suppliers. Since they are custom to each project it possible to find company which will make one to your specs........Good Luck
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: saltwheels262 on October 16, 2012, 05:08:57 PM
thanks for the reply. I was getting ready to re post.

I'll see what I can do with that maybe kohler might carry something.
anyone else have an idea on insulating silicone stick on heaters?

bf
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 12, 2012, 07:56:29 PM
I found some nice little Barry vibration mounts that had an appropriate load rating for my ignition box. I am using a Crane HI-6 CD ignition and PS-92 coil.

The coil is epoxy potted so it is not too sensitive to vibration; I hard-mounted it to an aluminum plate using some panel nuts and then fastened the plate to a chassis tube with four 10-32 steel Rivnuts.

The ignition box is also mounted to an 1/8” 6061-T6 aluminum plate using four panel nuts and the plate is fastened to four Barry mounts, also mounted to the chassis with the same type of Rivnut. For strain relief, I added a cable clamp to the wiring harness. Sorry for the crummy pictures.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 25, 2012, 07:26:15 PM
I’ve mounted the first heat shield on my black Mirage. To allow quick access to the engine compartment, I decided to use Dzus quarter-turn fasteners to secure the aluminum panel to the chassis tubes. These have been around for a long time but someone may never have installed them so I'll elaborate a bit.
 
I bought them from Speedway motors but they are available from other sources. Be aware that the same items vary in price over about a 2-to-1 range from different vendors. Since my panel is thin (0.040” 6061-T6) the springs needed were the “raised” ones, thicker panels need the “standard” height springs. Mounting the fasteners is not hard—simply weld the steel tab onto the chassis, pop rivet the spring in place, and place the Dzus button onto a 13/32” hole in the panel. In reality it isn’t quite so easy; the tabs must be mounted so they are oriented properly or the panel will be bowed in or out. Also, locating the holes in just the right place on the panel so they align with the mounting tab holes is a pain but a transfer punch will make the job easier.
 
I prefer Avex pop rivets for things like this; they are 1/8” diameter and have a large grip range.
 
I considered a number of methods to cut the heat shield panel to the proper shape. Since I was concerned about not distorting the cut edges, I tried my “El Cheapo” Harbor Freight plasma cutter on aluminum for the first time. It cut the sheet very well with no distortion. Just a little dressing of the edges to make them smooth was all that was required. This is a case where a template is definitely needed—cutting cardboard and throwing away mistakes is far cheaper than scrapping aluminum!
 
The next step, after I finish the left side heat shield is to go over the surfaces with an orbital sander to remove the stain & discoloration on the aluminum, treating it with a phosphoric acid solution, rinsing, drying, and then giving it a coat of zinc chromate primer.
 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 25, 2012, 07:36:04 PM
Pictures
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 28, 2012, 06:44:03 PM
I scrounged in my pile of surplus stuff and came up with a good filter for my mechanical fuel injection system. It’s a 10 micron filter so it should be OK. I also have a bigger 1 micron fuel filter that I can use when I convert this manifold to EFI.

I made the mounting bracket by cutting a length of 2024-T3 U-channel to size, drilling it for the mounting holes and inserting 1/4-20 Rivnuts in place. Since it will probably be mounted on my 0.040” heat shield, I needed to spread the load over a wider area so as not to fatigue the thin heat shield from vibration. I cut a larger flat mounting plate from 0.125” 7075-T6 and drilled it for the filter bracket mounting holes and for 1/8” countersunk rivets. The plate then was cleaned and sprayed with green zinc chromate. The mounting bracket holes are the same size & pattern front & rear so the filter direction can be easily reversed.

It’s the little stuff that takes time........... :-P
 
Regards,

Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gray63 on November 28, 2012, 07:04:15 PM
Neil:

When I look at the detail and workmanship, I get depressed at my abilities.
I am anxious to see this critter when it makes it to Bonneville.

Regards,  Dave Gray
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 28, 2012, 07:16:17 PM
Thanks, Dave;

Your '56 Corvette is certainly a mighty nice car... and it is running! Lets hope I can keep the progress going and get this it running before I get too old to drive the darned thing!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 28, 2012, 08:14:19 PM
Thanks, Dave;

Your '56 Corvette is certainly a mighty nice car... and it is running! Lets hope I can keep the progress going and get this it running before I get too old to drive the darned thing!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Gosh, Neil, if it's a driver you need . . .  :wink:

I'm just fascinated with all of these top shelf surplus parts you keep integrating into this build.

I guess I'm wondering when you're going to install the left over heat tiles that NASA used for reentry on the shuttle.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 28, 2012, 08:26:05 PM
MM;

As far as a driver is concerned, I have first priority  :-D

A lifetime of collecting surplus stuff has finally started to pay off. The great days of surplus hunting is pretty much over; the super deals have dried up and the surplus flow has been reduced to a trickle. Many old guys like me remember the good old days when all the aircraft manufacturers had their own surplus stores as well as the private dealers. Earl's Supply started off as a surplus parts dealer. The LA area was great-- North American Aviation, Douglas Aircraft, Lockheed Aircraft, etc, etc.

Shuttle tiles?    ...no but I do have a Nike Ajax rocket engine. Nah, the red fuming nitric acid and analine would probably move me up into the Fuel class.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 28, 2012, 08:35:37 PM
My dad worked for Collins Radio which was bought by Rockwell.  They did most of the Apollo communications and a lot of development on early global positioning systems.  They had a fabulous surplus store up until about 1980 when just-in-time practices started to take hold in purchasing. 

If I knew then what I know now, half of their excess stock would be squirreled away in my attic.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 28, 2012, 09:44:48 PM
MM;

I love Collins gear. I have a KWM-1 transceiver and a 32S-1 & 75S-1 S-Line. Their R-390A  is still one of the best short-wave receivers ever built-- even today! I have a 1953 contract Collins R-390A, serial number 12.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 30, 2012, 08:18:24 PM
My friend Wade Musil finished bending my rear anti-roll bar yesterday so I bolted it in place on the chassis that evening. I’ll drill four 3/8” holes in each of the bent arms and weld in sleeves for 1/4” bolts, similar to my front anti-roll bar. This way the stiffness of the bar can be adjusted. Today I made two brackets to bolt to the rear uprights. These will be bolted into place using existing 1/2-20 bolts that go through rod end bearings into the uprights. I made these from a short length of steel tubing welded to a large 1/2” washer and then welded tabs into that tubing for the rod end bearings in the downlinks.
 
The tabs are offset from the tubing centerline so that the rod end is centered. This way the tubing will not want to rotate around the mounting bolt.

Actually, I positioned the bolt wrong in these photos—it is properly inserted into the large open end, of course.  :-P
 
Regards,

Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 01, 2012, 11:07:50 PM
Neil, I think a lot of the lack of surplus laying around is the value of the metal on the scrap market and the availability of recyclers.  It is too easy to get rid of things, now.   
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JimL on December 02, 2012, 12:30:06 AM
R390A?  Got my attention, and brought back memories.  Do you still copy code?  I was 05H, riding lightning with Security Agency, about 45 years ago....small world.  Ears are still ringing! :-P
... _._
JimL
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 02, 2012, 10:43:25 AM
WW;

Yes, I agree. There are also far fewer military R & D programs now compared to years ago and far fewer manufacturers. The EPA has made scraping so difficult that it has also virtually disappeared.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 02, 2012, 10:50:36 AM
R390A?  Got my attention, and brought back memories.  Do you still copy code?  I was 05H, riding lightning with Security Agency, about 45 years ago....small world.  Ears are still ringing! :-P
... _._
JimL

Jim;

A dittybopper, eh? A couple of years ago I was driving around Coronado and stumbled across a big "elephant cage" just off the road. Now that would be a nice antenna for an R-390A! Where were you stationed?

I wasn't with ASA-- I learned code when I was 14 so I could get my license. Well, my code speed is probably less that 5 wpm these days but I'll get back to amateur radio someday.

73, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JimL on December 02, 2012, 11:23:19 PM
Yup, ASA with 6 months in Rothwesten, Germany, then 6 months in Herzo near Nurnberg, then 2 tours in Phu Bai on the south edge of Hue (67-69). Seems like a lifetime ago now.....wait...it was a lifetime ago!

Back to your build thread...this is probably boring to the racers, but thanks for the memory jog.
Regards, JimL
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 55chevr on December 03, 2012, 07:35:33 AM
Welcome Home.


Joe
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 03, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
Jim;

I spent a few years in Germany, too- with a Corporal guided missile unit in '61 to '63. I was in Babenhausen, near Aschaffenburg, and in Hanau, outside of Frankfurt. Did you ever get into the I.G. Farben Building?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ  ex-SP5
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 03, 2012, 10:11:33 AM
Thanks, Joe.

It's good to be back in the land of the round doorknob-- the land of the big PX.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 03, 2012, 03:05:18 PM
I installed my rear anti-roll bar yesterday but I’m not entirely satisfied with it. The bar and down links are too close to the inside of the rear tires to be comfortable with it. It looks like I can shorten the bar’s length by about 2” and that will give a better tire clearance. I’ll make new downlinks that are a little longer to make the bar ends closer to horizontal. I’ll also grind off the sharp corners of the aluminum bar mounts as well.

Rounded corners and de-burred holes are nice details that should not be overlooked on race cars or airplanes.  :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Frankie7799 on December 03, 2012, 05:41:39 PM
Just finished reading your build Neil. Very impressive. While I havent been to Tucson in several years ive been meaning to get down that way to see the Titan missle museum. Maybe if I get down that way in the next few months I could stop by, say hello and see the Manta up close.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 03, 2012, 07:07:02 PM
Frankie;

You are certainly welcome to visit any time that we're home. Just give me a call  (520) 822-1485 (H) or (520) 784-3132 (cell).

The Titan missile museum is certainly worth a visit-- I think it's the only intact ICBM silo that a person can go into.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on December 03, 2012, 09:41:51 PM
   Neil,
   This is in my collection of old junk. It's from an old dairy here in Montana.
     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 03, 2012, 10:22:38 PM
Interesting, Doug. I've never seen a milk carton like that! Minute Man was a lot of things but "inexpensive" was not one of them!

The Minute Man program did make a quantum leap in the reliability of electronic components, though--  that (reliability & quality monitoring) was not a Japanese invention.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on December 03, 2012, 10:41:10 PM
  Mid 50's stuff. They are in the process of deactivating all [most] of the Montana sites at present. There was a time when it was said that if North Dakota seceeded from the Union, it would be the third largest nuclear power in the world. Sorta puts a little perspective on the picture.
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gearheadeh on December 04, 2012, 09:19:54 AM
  Neil,
   This is in my collection of old junk. It's from an old dairy here in Montana.
     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pretty cool keepsake, why does the front side remind me of a Mushroom cloud?  :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Frankie7799 on December 04, 2012, 10:27:10 AM
Pretty cool keepsake, why does the front side remind me of a Mushroom cloud?  :-D

I was thinking the same thing, that and the really bold A near the top. End of hijacking Neils thread talking about ICBMs lol
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 04, 2012, 11:59:32 AM
Sorry, Folks -- but a week or two ago WA8GDW celebrated 50 years in ham radio.  Well -- I was WN8GDW for a short time and then got a technician.  I've kept the old call forever - so nobody knows what license class I hold.  It's what used to be the "advanced".  I don't know if that's still available, or maybe they've upgraded me to doofus class.  No, I'm not on the air -- but keep meaning to at least use the 2M rig that's in the truck.  Back to the car. . .
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 06, 2012, 10:28:47 AM
Today I shortened my rear anti-roll bar by 2.5” and now it looks OK with respect to tire sidewall clearance. I didn’t want to re-do the bends or the sleeved holes in the bar, so I cut out 2.5’’ from the center of the bar and inserted a 5/8” OD 16 ga tube inside the bar, extending to the area where the bends begin. Then I assembled the bar with the new tube slipped inside and welded the bar back together. The weld extended into the inside tube so they are connected together in the middle. I also had drilled a couple of holes in the bar out toward the ends of the inserted tube and did a rosette weld to tie the tubes together at their outer ends. So now I have a coaxial “tube within a tube” anti-roll bar. It stiffened the bar somewhat as well as allowing me to modify the original rather than make a whole new one.
 
I also was able to mount my fuel filter on the outside of the heat shield. Pictures to come.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 07, 2012, 08:46:06 PM
I finished a mounting plate for my Tilton rear brake proportioning valve. It is 1/8” 6061-T6 finished with green zinc chromate. The valve is mounted with 1/4-28 bolts threaded into Nutserts.

...and so it goes.
 
 Regards,

Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 09, 2012, 03:43:04 PM
I promised to post a photo or two of my fuel filter mounted on the heat shield so here they are. I may mount the fuel pump intake filter here too—we’ll see.

I also mounted a small aluminum tank for the dry sump breather vent; it will also be plumbed to the valve covers to provide a vent for them. I cut off part of the original mounting bracket as it was designed to mount to a round tube. I cut a flat piece of 6061-T6 and my friend, Wade Musil, TIG welded it onto the tank bracket for me. It is mounted to the heat shield with stainless 10-32 Phillips head screws and steel Rivnuts. I’ll need to mount a header tank for the cooling system high on this panel but the rear body needs to be put back on to see how much clearance there is to mount that tank.

Gettin’ there......
 
Regards,
 
Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on December 19, 2012, 08:39:11 AM
Neil,
This is a fantastic build! Just read through the entire thread.
I don't know how I missed this before.
I've always loved these cars. Do you plan in making it to Speed Week 2013?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2012, 11:35:43 AM
Robfrey;

Thanks for the kind words. Comments like yours help me get through periods where I feel a bit "burnerd out" by the work ahead of me.

I'm working to get it to Speedweek ASAP; it has taken a long time-- unavoidable I guess when you do everything by yourself. Maybe 2013-- we'll see. I'll post a few more pictures later today.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on December 19, 2012, 11:44:05 AM
Neil, I understand about the burn-out aspect.  But I think you're well within striking distance for August. 

I certainly hope so - I've gone beyond planning to be at Speedweek to the point of scheduling it, and I want to meet you and check out this elegant monster you've been screwing together.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Chris
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dr Goggles on December 19, 2012, 02:00:43 PM
You can do it Neil, we're , um all cheering for you, I think that's the right words?...Bill?

It has been a great read, you're on the cusp.

DrG
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on December 19, 2012, 09:35:46 PM
You can do it Neil, we're , um all cheering for you, I think that's the right words?...Bill?

It has been a great read, you're on the cusp.

DrG

I believe what Dr. G was trying to say is "bugger, I'm rooting for you". :-D

Neil, one bite at a time and you will get there.

Can't wait to see it, Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2012, 10:10:59 PM
Thanks to everyone who wrote with words of encouragement. I truely appreciate it.

I finished making a mounting bracket for my fuel pump inlet filter; this is a 10 micron filter that is plumbed between the fuel pickup in the tank to the Hilborn pump inlet. Normally a fuel filter in this position is "iffy" because it can cause fuel to create vapor bubbles due to low pressure but this filter is a very low restriction filter. Its stainless steel filter element is unusually large so there should be very low pressure drop across it. The gold-anodized filter is for the fuel pump output--- also a 10 micron filter.

I mounted the fabricated bracket from 1/4" 7075-T6 which is then riveted with 3/16" CherryMax countersunk rivets to a 2024-T3 angle. Then the angle is riveted to a 0.060" 6061-T6 flat bracket with 10-32 Riv-Nuts inserted. I made another flat piece of 0.060" 6061-T6 to act as a doubler plate to spread the load of the weight of the filter full of fuel over a larger area on the aluminum heat shield. It is fastened with 1/8" Avex blind rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2012, 10:17:25 PM
One more thing about the fuel filter-- it had square flanges for its input & output so I cut out a couple of squares of 1/2" 6061-T6, drilled holes in each corner for 10-32 socket head cap screws and drilled & tapped each one for AN-8 fittings sealed with o-rings.

It's the little stuff that slows things down dramatically....

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on December 20, 2012, 12:35:49 AM
Neil,
As they say, "The devil is in the details" but it is the details that make it right! As usual it is great to watch your build, great engineering and fabrication, although I would not put a 10 micron filter on the inlet to a pump but you are "fornicating" this cat we are only holding its head! Like everyone else I am looking forward to seeing you and your car at the salt.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 20, 2012, 11:15:29 AM
Rex;

Normally I wouldn't put a filter on the pump inlet either but this one has such low restriction that I think it will be OK.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: saltwheels262 on December 20, 2012, 09:03:51 PM
very clean build.
super detailed.
nice.

bf
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 20, 2012, 09:11:41 PM
bf;

Thank you. There was a note at the beginning of a book I read years ago that said "Impatience to get the car on the road has been the downfall of many a good design."

I guess I took it to heart.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: saltwheels262 on December 21, 2012, 07:26:04 PM
and I always think - if I can't do it right I shouldn't be doing it at all.
and hgTV mike says " make it right ".
you seem to be doing both and more.

as are many of the builders on this forum.

good holidays to all.

franey


Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 21, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Thanks, franey. Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 22, 2012, 05:36:14 PM
I finally finished mounting my coolant header tank to the left side heat shield. Like the others, it is mounted with 10-32 bolts into steel Riv-Nuts. This tank runs to the radiator hose tubing and also to a small fitting in the top of the radiator. This fitting is plumbed back to the tank to provide a continuous air bleed out of the radiator. This is necessary for low- mounted radiators-- otherwise the radiator eventually fills with air and no coolant gets circulated.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on December 22, 2012, 05:43:35 PM
Fantastic Work, Neil!

I sure hope we see it on the salt next year!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 22, 2012, 06:46:39 PM
Thanks-- I hope so, too!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on December 22, 2012, 07:50:07 PM
Neil,
Do you have a photo bucket or similar account that you are pulling your img codes from?
I for one would like to see all photos of the build so far.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 23, 2012, 11:35:45 AM
Robfrey;

I'm pulling these photos from my hard disk but they are also posted at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mantacars/photos/album/422677104/pic/list

Since it is a Yahoo page, you will need to sign up with a user name & password. There are lots (121 so far) of pictures of things that were later eliminated, modified, or junked, too so you will see things change as the time stamps increase. You can also see that this project has dragged on forever but more progress is being made lately.

Regards & Merry Christmas, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on January 01, 2013, 11:50:14 PM
Neil, have you made any progress lately? Pics?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 02, 2013, 10:38:24 AM
Robfrey;

Yes, I've made a bit more progress but my e-mail has been down so I haven't posted for a few days. Pictures to come.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 02, 2013, 06:37:49 PM
This is the latest bit of progress. I wanted to be able to power the car's electrical systen from an external source for starting, etc. The battery is not very accessible and it is in a battery box as well so I thought a high-current connector that is used for aircraft GPUs would do the trick-- they are rated as 500A continuous and 1000A for a short time. This connector also provides a plug to charge the car's battery.

The mounting bracket is a surplus 2024-T3 angle and a piece of 7075-T6. Lots of fun cutting out the oval hole for mounting the connector. All I have to do now is tighten the Hi-Locks. If you are not familiar with Hi-Locks, don't feel lonesome. They are like regular hex nuts but they are self-locking and are scored circumferencially so at the right tightening torque, the top shears off. No torque wrench needed! Cool little things.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on January 07, 2013, 11:54:03 PM
You do nice work Neil!
Keep them pictures coming, please.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on January 23, 2013, 02:10:50 PM
Neil, did you make any progress lately?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 24, 2013, 11:16:41 AM
Despite having been down with a bad cold, I have done a bit more on the car. I just finished making rear hinges for the tilt-up rear body section and a pair on mounting brackets for a 10 lb fire bottle. Those will be riveted to the stressed aluminum panel across the bottom if the chassis. Photos to come.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 13, 2013, 06:53:44 PM
I’ve spent some time trial fitting a few body panels on my Black Mirage. There is still quite a bit to do to get the fiberglass panels to fit the new chassis modifications. For example, the cockpit rear bulkhead needed to be cut so that it would fit into the roll cage. I may glass the upper & lower doors together and hinge it a la Lola T70; it would make a quick exit in an emergency somewhat easier.

The upper doors and side pod panels are not installed in these pictures. The blue tape on the front is where I may make a cut for a removable access panel.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SteveM on February 13, 2013, 07:04:30 PM
Schweet  :-o

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on February 13, 2013, 07:17:11 PM
We've been staring at suspension and electrical components for so long that I'd forgotten just what an aggressive bodyline these things have.

Excellent looking car, Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 13, 2013, 07:54:36 PM
Thanks, Guys-- it is taking forever but it's getting there.


The body is a pretty close copy of a McLaren M8B Can-Am car but they (Manta Cars) converted it into a coupe instead of an open-cockpit so the aerodynamics should be good. It is pretty wide but it's also very low so the frontal area should not be too bad.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: saltwheels262 on February 13, 2013, 08:04:02 PM
very aero.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: lsrjunkie on February 13, 2013, 08:13:55 PM
Looking awesome Neil!  :cheers: I love the stacks sticking up out back! Should be pretty slick.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on February 13, 2013, 08:43:59 PM
Ahhhhh! From the times when race cars were real, could be worked on by normally equipped teams and were relatively affordable. The sixties and early seventies were the golden era of road racing. Looking great Neil.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 13, 2013, 11:46:31 PM
Looks really good. Are you putting louvres into the yellow areas?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on February 14, 2013, 03:47:13 AM
Hi Neil

I have a early book on Bruce and it has a photo of his own Can-Am coupe road car, both the Lola T70 & the McLaren look great it is a toss up as to wich is better looking.

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 14, 2013, 11:07:50 AM
Looks really good. Are you putting louvres into the yellow areas?.

Thanks for the comments, everyone. BTW, the McLaren road car was the M6GT, similar to Rex Svoboda's beautiful blue GMS.

No, the yellow areas are where there were pop-up headlights. I've riveted on sheet aluminum covers that I have primed with zinc chromate; I'll eventually paint them black.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on February 16, 2013, 08:31:29 PM
Neil, the craftsmanship is fantastac, but the body lines are freakin my favorite! :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on February 16, 2013, 08:40:33 PM
Oh ya those McLaren cars were very trick in design & build for thier day, timeless stuff!!

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Tman on February 17, 2013, 11:26:13 AM
Very sexy car :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 26, 2013, 02:24:55 PM
Yesterday I removed the Clecos fastening the top panel to the roll cage so that I could do more trial fit of fiberglass body panels. The Clecos were in the way so I replaced them with a few el cheapo blind rivets. These are 5/32" aluminum/steel rivets that are maybe one step up from hardware store pop rivets but they are only temporary and I will drill them out and replace them with A286 blind rivets when the chassis is finish welded and painted.

Things went OK until the last one-- the pneumatic rivet gun pulled the stem until it broke but the nosepiece bounced up and the broken end of the stem went into my thumb when it came back down. So I have a minor gash in my left thumb but a simple Band-Aid fixed things. Dopey accident; it is something I never anticipated, but I guess if I had, it wouldn't be called an "accident". Duhh.

 :oops:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on February 26, 2013, 06:23:46 PM
Neil, gotta be careful using power tools....  :|
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 27, 2013, 01:24:39 AM
That's so true. Clive, my buddy was helping me here a while back. He was cutting a plate using the angle grinder. Sparks were really flying. I asked him why he always stood on the wrong side of the grinder if you get my meaning. Not five minutes later I heard him scream. His shirt was on fire and he was so spooked he just dropped the Makita while it was still running. Those few seconds took it's toll. I suppose the lesson is that if you want to be on the wrong side don't wear polyester.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on February 27, 2013, 01:49:13 AM


Things went OK until the last one-- the pneumatic rivet gun pulled the stem until it broke but the nosepiece bounced up and the broken end of the stem went into my thumb when it came back down. So I have a minor gash in my left thumb but a simple Band-Aid fixed things.


My dad told me once, after gashing up my finger doing some body work on his Cougar, "That's why God gave you ten of 'em".
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 27, 2013, 12:34:36 PM
MM;

Fortunately I still have my original issue ten.... same for toes. But it's still early in the game.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 27, 2013, 12:47:46 PM
Beware of frost bite. :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Tman on February 27, 2013, 12:48:18 PM
MM;

Fortunately I still have my original issue ten.... same for toes. But it's still early in the game.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

I have all of them as well but upon further inspection I have quite a few "identifying marks" including part of a zip wheel imbedded in one fingertip.  :-o
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gkabbt on February 27, 2013, 03:26:45 PM
I have quite a few "identifying marks" including part of a zip wheel imbedded in one fingertip.  :-o

As the window sign says at my local Northern Tool, "Scars are tatoos with better stories". 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 27, 2013, 05:06:06 PM

As the window sign says at my local Northern Tool, "Scars are tatoos with better stories". 
[/quote]

I like that!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 04, 2013, 08:27:27 PM
I’ve been working on fitting some fiberglass body panels lately and I’m now working on the doors. One thing that I’ve found is that the quality of the Manta fiberglass is pretty variable—the upper doors & T-bar that I have are orange; they were made for another car and they don’t fit the black Mirage well at all. So it has been a grind & fit, trial & error assembly.

I had planned to fasten the upper gull-wing doors to the lower flip-forward doors and hinge them in one piece at the forward edge of the door opening like the Lola T70 but, after trying that idea, I have abandoned it as impractical. There is too much curvature to allow the door to open without interference. I’ve decided to hinge it at the top as Manta Cars originally designed it but I’ll have both the upper & lower doors tied together, opening in gull-wing fashion. A one-piece door saves time in getting it open for an emergency exit—like when I’m on fire. (I should have said IF I’m on fire). I think the bearclaw latch will still work OK but I need to check that.

I had a strip of MS2001-6 extruded aluminum hinge so I cut it to size and riveted it to the left door. Since this hinge is made of 2024-T351 it should be plenty strong. I turned the hinges upside-down so they do not protrude quite so far into the airstream. These are 3/16” Avex rivets; they have an unusually large grip range and they did not crack the ‘glass.

The orange t-bar is actually about 1” narrower than it needs to be to fit the black Mirage so I cut it lengthwise and will splice in the needed width later. Just FYI, here is what’s inside that T-bar. The double-wall construction adds a lot of stiffness without much added weight but the inside looks pretty ugly.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 06, 2013, 07:02:20 PM
As I mentioned in my last post, I discovered that the T-bar from the orange Mirage was 1” or so too narrow to fit my black Mirage  so it was necessary to cut it down the center and splice it with a piece of aluminum. I cut the plate from 0.040” 6061-T6 and riveted it to the fiberglass with thirty-four 1/8” Avex blind rivets. Holes were drilled in the four hinge wells for 5/16”-18 stainless cap screws. These thread into steel Rivnuts that I installed in the roll cage top titanium panel. After cleaning and smoothing the rough edges of the T-bar, I primed it and then spray-painted it with gloss black lacquer.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on March 07, 2013, 08:50:36 AM
Looking great Neil!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on March 07, 2013, 09:36:59 AM
Every time - every single time you post up a pic - I am struck by your attention to detail and the quality of the pieces you've gathered or fabricated.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 07, 2013, 10:54:54 AM
I second that. Excellent work Neil. Your attention to detail is not only in the finished parts but how they go together. Normal rivets and glass don't go.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SteveM on March 08, 2013, 08:36:21 AM
Every time - every single time you post up a pic - I am struck by your attention to detail and the quality of the pieces you've gathered or fabricated.

 :cheers:

I third that sentiment.  I find your knowledge and use of the materials and fasteners particularly interesting.  Obviously, you have a strong aviation background.  It's great to see those skills and that knowledge put to use here.

Can you recommend any sources for the specialty rivets in particular?  Before seeing your work, I really never thought much past the hardware store pop rivets, but now I find myself craving the trick goodies.

Steve.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 08, 2013, 12:37:12 PM
Thanks, Steve. One of the best things I did years ago was to enroll in a local community college Aircraft & Powerplant mechanics course. I had no intention of getting an A & P license-- it was just to get the knowledge & experience that seemed to be useful in working on race cars. It has paid off many times over!

Rivets are an interesting subject since there are so many types and each has its advantages in certain applications. My rivet collection has been built up over the years by trolling surplus stores and eBay. You can never have too many but a variety of sizes, grip lengths, and materials is more helpful.

For fiberglass or moderate strength applications, I like the Avex 5052 aluminum body with a steel pin. These have an unusually wide grip range and still retain the pin which helps their shear strength. Many fastener distributors carry them and Aircraft Spruce is always a good source. They are available in both dome head and flush head. I find that 1/8" and 3/16" Avex rivets to be the most useful.

Stepping up in both price & performance are the aerospace variety-- CherryLock or the equivalent Huck or All Fast blind rivets. These also retain their pins but have better vibration resistance than Avex. They are available in more exotic alloys so their strength varies accordingly. Monel (a cupro-nickel alloy) has pretty good high temperature performance and strength, plus it doesn't rust. A really high strength rivet material is A286, a stainless superalloy. For low strength applications, aluminum/aluminum rivets are also available.

Aerospace rivets are great but buying them retail costs $$$$$$$$$$$$ so I usually find bags of 100 on eBay for around $10 to $15. The key to knowing what the rivets are is to decode their part number. This tells you the material, diameter, grip range, etc. Google the part number and you may find a brochure from Cherry that has the part number breakdown. Even if you get a really good deal on something like a 1/8" rivet with a grip range of 0.500" to 0.560", ask yourself where would ever use such a wierd size. Try to concentrate on usable sizes. One caution: aerospace rivets have a rather narrow range of acceptable hole sizes and grip ranges so the Avex is more of a "universal" blind rivet.

When buying surplus aerospace rivets, watch out for "oversize" rivets. These are designed with slightly larger diameter bodies so they can repair a structure that has had the old rivet drilled out and a slightly larger drill used to enlarge and clean up the hole. There is nothing wrong with using oversize rivets but once you use them, there is no slightly larger one if a repair is necessary. Of course the next larger size can be used.

Rivet sizes are expressed as thirty-seconds of an inch. A -4 rivet would be 4/32" or 1/8", a -5 is 5/32", and a -6 is 3/16" diameter. The grip range is the second number, also in thirty-seconds of an inch. For example, a -5-6 would be a 5/32" diameter rivet with a nominal grip range of 3/16".

A hand tool is OK for small rivets but for large ones, high-strength varieties, or for setting more than just a few, a pneumatic gun is almost a necessity. My favorite one is a small pneumatic/hydraulic gun but they are hard to find.

I don't use solid rivets but they are still around. Driving solid rivets requires some skill and quite a collection of pneumatic tools.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on March 08, 2013, 12:51:35 PM
Neil I have been blessed with the work that Hume has done on Marlo's car. I have seen the variety

that you have discussed. The one other thing is the cutter that he uses when a special length is needed.

Thanks for your discussion of those simple but varied little "hole fillers."

The numbering system is like that used with hoses and their fittings.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: superleggera on March 08, 2013, 02:36:23 PM
for your gullwing style door, have you thought of using an aircraft quick release "pit pin" for a hinge pivot?  Thus easy to remove the doors for service work. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 08, 2013, 03:49:45 PM
Mark;

Quick-release pins would work and would be a super strong hinge but I wanted to keep as little projecting into the airstream as possible. The MS2001 hinges can be separated by pulling out the pin-- not as easy as your idea, but lower drag.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on March 08, 2013, 04:50:30 PM
Years ago i bought a Micro-stop cutter for cutting the countersink holes for flat head rivets, by using this cutter tool each rivet will be flush with the surface if you set it up that way.

Or if you wan't them to stick up a tick you make the cut a little less deep, a real must if using flat head rivets.

A little pricey but worth its weight in gold when you need such a tool, like most special tools are.

If you are a metal fab guy you can never have enough of the trick tools

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 08, 2013, 05:40:48 PM
"If you are a metal fab guy you can never have enough of the trick tools"

Amen, Don!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 08, 2013, 09:18:07 PM
Neil, this might not be relevant but when using rivets on fibreglass you could use peel rivets. You probably know what they are but maybe some guys could use the info. Simply put, they are longer than you'd use for a particular situation but when compressed the shank splits into four "petals" that fold back ensuring the parts riveted stay together. No hijack intended. The only rivet gun I have is pneumatic and it was a gift from two friends. Their delivery guy dropped it off with a note saying I could have it but it needed repairing. The plastic container that fits on the back of the tool was full of fresh rivets but they couldn't get it to work. :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 09, 2013, 01:18:28 PM
Tauruck;

I've used those "petal" or "peel' rivets on thin plastic parts but they don't have much strength so I don't use them where I can also use an Avex rivet.

Good score on the rivet gun "that didn't work". Maybe he never put a few drops of oil in the air inlet; the piston can get stuck without any lubrication.

I'll post a few pictures of some of my most-used rivet guns. The old standby Marson hand tool is great but for stronger rivets of for setting a whole pattern, your hands will give out quickly. A pneumatic tool is need, such as the el cheapo eBay "Power Craft", it was about $25 or $30 but it works just fine on most rivets. The jewel is the FSI D100-MIL-1 set. It is a manual hydraulic gun that came in a set that included nosepieces for pulling Rivnuts & Nutserts, as well as blind rivets. It has lots of power for its small size. The other one is a FSI PT100. It is similar to the manual gun but it has a pneumatic/hydraulic actuator.

I haven't shown some oddballs or the ones for staked stem rivets such as the G36 manual gun.

The rivet cutter Freud spoke of is used for cutting solid aluminum rivets to the proper grip length. Solid rivets are far cheaper than blind rivets but they require access to the back side of the work where a helper bucks the rivet while you drive it from the front side. This procedure generates lots of noise... not very popular with wives.

This is enough pontificating--- I just wanted to give a brief overview of rivets since most racers are not familiar with the high performance potential of aerospace blind rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 09, 2013, 02:29:22 PM
It isn't easy to find technical information on the internet but persistance sometimes pays off. Here is the info on Avex dome head & countersunk head rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on March 09, 2013, 03:40:42 PM
This info needs to be put in the tech. section for all to see and use at any time.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 09, 2013, 07:38:55 PM
I've added aluminum splice plates to convert the doors from 2-piece to one-piece. I may fiberglass them together or add splice plates on the inside of the doors to make the joints stiffer & stronger--  we'll see. Just to check the range of travel on the hinges, I opened both doors and tied them up with string to take a photo or two. I'll need to add a hold-open device to each door.

That's enough for today-- it's dinner time at the ranch.  :lol:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on March 09, 2013, 07:48:11 PM
Neil, why do you need a ez-up inside does the roof leak??? :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 09, 2013, 07:54:04 PM
No, Glen-- my wife gets upset when the soot particles from lighting my torch drift upstairs into her sewing room. So far this has kept the peace. Besides, I'll need one at Bonneville if I ever get this thing finished! :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: maguromic on March 09, 2013, 08:21:25 PM
Neil, our shop is too organized, a mark of a true engineer.  :cheers:  Thanks for sharing the rivet data, I printed them off and have it in a handy location.  Tony
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on March 09, 2013, 08:38:24 PM
Hi Neil

Maybe one of those hood hold um up deals the they have on stock cars, make them in all different sizes.

Some kind of a slotted over center thing, have to do a little doodeling to get her figured out.

I built a counterweighted rope and pulley thing to hold up the clear plex covers on my display case but you would not wan't the lead weights banging around in there, so there has to be a way to hook up two of those hood holders

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 13, 2013, 07:25:02 PM
After much investigation and head scratching about how to install gas springs to open my doors, I've decided that I just don't have enough room where they would need to be installed-- ditto on the NASCAR hinges. So I simply made two rods that will hold the doors up but not raise them automatically as I wanted to do.

The fittings are some surplus stuff from my stash and the rods are surplus 3/8" x 0.028" 2024-T3 aluminum tubing. To stow the rods, they are disconnected at the to[p clevis and the rod rotates 90 degrees forward and folds down under the closed door.


Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gkabbt on March 13, 2013, 09:08:08 PM
some surplus stuff from my stash

LOL!
Wonderful craftsmanship with fantastic materials and a beautiful car.
To me, this is the most bitchin' pic so far.   :cheers:
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4045.0;attach=39540;image)

Gregg
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ratpatrol66 on March 13, 2013, 09:50:13 PM
Cool build, do you have a color picked out yet?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on March 13, 2013, 11:01:41 PM
Hi Neil

That works and is easy to use, a silly question maybe but why is the easy up open in your shop ?

Also wondering about your color choice, flames would be way too much but some tasty scollops following the body lines would look real sharp. With a taste of turned leaf too.

Do you remember Knott Farington's T bird done in metalic maroon with turned gold leaf for the class info     ' A / S  230 ' on the door and that is how fast he went too.

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 13, 2013, 11:29:24 PM
Don;

You have a sharp eye-- Glen asked the same question-- see my answer below.

I think I'll leave it black-- a friend e-mailed me this a few days ago:

Neil,

Your black Mirage has to be the most menacing automobile I'll ever see.


I kinda like that!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Captthundarr on March 13, 2013, 11:41:39 PM
Neil, yes that is Bad azz in black. as always it is neat to see what tidbits you dig out of your stash to solve an issue. :cheers: P.S. Your soot control device adds a certain elegance to the shop.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on March 14, 2013, 03:11:57 AM
Hey Neil

Paint that wild looking ride Fly Yellow with some neat orange scollops and red pin stripes, top it off with some turned gold leaf and let her Rip.

Black hides detail stuff and the brite yellow would bring it all out for the world to see, plus not near as hot inside up there on the salt in the middle of summer.

The magazine's love brite colored cars for their features too !!

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 14, 2013, 04:27:54 AM
Don, I agree. Yellow.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on March 14, 2013, 09:10:34 AM
Hi Neil

Do you remember Olie Olsen's T70 lola at the 68' Riverside Can-am, he did a great job putting the car together for driver Rick Muther

It was Fly Yellow with some gold ano on the dash stuff and what a looker it was, Olie and i installed the dyno at Al Bartz's new shop in the first part of 68'.

Olie was a neat guy to work with as we both liked neat stuff with a little polish too.

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Ron Gibson on March 14, 2013, 09:42:14 AM
Neil
I learned years ago when I had my body shop to open the oxygen some before you light the torch. Flame won't be exactly right but with practice be pretty close and no smoke.
I agree. Black is menacing. Cool build.

Ron
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 14, 2013, 11:41:54 AM
I do have plans to paint my chassis yellow but I like the sinister look of black. It contrasts nicely with the stark white of the salt, too.

I try to crank on a little O2 before lighting my torch but it either makes a big "bang" or creates soot. Oh well...

Don, I wasn't involved in Can-Am in '68-- only during the '72- '73 seasons.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on March 14, 2013, 12:04:50 PM
By 72' Penske was killing the series with his German steamrollers with 1000 plus hp that never broke, sure pit an end to a great racing show till then.

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 14, 2013, 12:19:15 PM
Dod,

The Porsche 917-30 was fun to watch, though. Bob could out brake it and out corner it but after the corner, there was a big bang from the turbos and it was gone. The 917-10s were a nightmare to change transaxle gears on compared to the MacLaren's Hewland. I pittied those Porsche mechanics.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 15, 2013, 08:14:26 PM
The fiberglass rear cockpit bulkhead had to be cut into two pieces due to the addition of the roll cage so it was necessary to make two plates to splice them back together. I made them out of some scrap 0.040" 6061-T6 and riveted them to the bottom part of the bulkhead with 1/8" Avex rivets and, since I wanted the upper part to be removable, I placed self-locking 10-32 clip nuts over the edges and fastened them with Phillips- head titanium screws. The plate was done as usual-- clean, phosphoric acid etch, and then a coat of zinc chromate.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 19, 2013, 02:08:14 PM
The stock Mirage door latches are installed at the rear of the swing- up doors; the bearclaw latch is in the fixed fiberglass body and the striker pin is in the door. This works OK for the stock setup but I need to change this latch arrangement for two reasons:

1. The bearclaw is slightly off the travel arc of my doors now that I’ve made them into a one- piece gull-wing type.

2. I think that for safety reasons, the door needs to be latched at its forward edge so that it can’t be pulled up by high-speed aerodynamic forces. I remember what happened to Bruce MacLaren.

If possible, I’ll put latches on the forward edges as well as on the rear edges of the doors—they should hold the doors solidly in place.

I bought four brand-new surplus Hartwell H430 trigger latches that I thought would work very well in this application but it looks like they won’t be suitable after all. They would be great for opening the doors from the outside, but I need to be able to pop the latches open from the inside of the car as well and I haven’t been able to work out how to trigger them from inside the car.

I think I can adapt the bearclaw latches to do the job; by mounting them in the doors and placing the striker pin in the fixed bodywork, both latches can be opened simultaneously by a rod or cable from inside or outside. Getting out of this race car without any unnecessary fumbling around is important—it might be on fire.

I ordered a L & R Slim-Line latch with pins and mounting plates from Speedway Motors—enough for one door. If it is satisfactory, I’ll do the passenger- side door as well later on. These Slim- Line latches are a bit smaller than the originals so they should be easier to mount in the doors. Photos will be forthcoming as this project gets underway.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 27, 2013, 08:55:06 PM
Here are a few pictures of the driver's side gull-wing door. The bear claw latches are installed in the forward and rear edges of the door to keep it securely fastened. They will be opened simultaneously by rotating the inside door handle up. Man, I hate fiberglass work! :x

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 31, 2013, 04:11:22 PM
Now for the other part of the door latches-- the striker pin that the bear claw snaps around to secure the door shut. I reinforced the fiberglass door jam with 0.040" 6061-T6 aluminum riveted on with 1/8" Avex rivets. The strikers are 3/8"-18 stainless socket head cap screws with 3/8" IDx1/2" OD steel bushing sleeves. It turned out that the striker pins from Speedway Motors were not long enough to engage the bear claws properly. I did use their backing plates; they are secured with 1/4"-20 stainless button head cap screws.

As usual, the aluminum was treated with a phosphoric acid solution and finished with yellow zinc chromate primer.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 01, 2013, 12:22:09 AM
Neil, methinks this be a show winner before anything else. I'm sure it's been said before but your attention to detail is top notch. Another fiberglass hater :-D. Could you by any chance be working with chopped strand mat?. :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 01, 2013, 11:49:28 AM
Thanks, Tauruck, but it won't ever get an invitation to Monterey! The Mirage body is made of hand-laid woven fabric with a bit of mat here and there for reinforcement.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 02, 2013, 04:00:37 AM
I'm not too sure about that Neil. Monterey should be honoured. It may not be Moal Coachworks but we all know that when you post pics they show top class workmanship. Who uses self etch primer here?. Manta22, that's who. If you need advice on glass you can PM or email me anytime. I hate it too. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 02, 2013, 09:47:07 PM
I did a little on the car today-- made a couple of door latch release rods out of 3/8"x 0.028" 304 stainless tubing. To accommodate the ability to adjust the length of the rods, I braze welded steel 10-32 nuts to the ends of the rods so that I could use a threaded clevis in each end. At first I considered just using JB Weld to attach the ends but I thought better of it when I realized that if the bond failed, I couldn't get out of the car!

Since the door must be able to be released both from inside and outside, I came up with an aerodynamic low-drag handle. This is a short section of carbon fiber airfoil that I cut from a longer piece of surplus stuff that I bought about 10 years ago. I think it was from a cruise missile or something like that. Whatever...

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Captthundarr on April 02, 2013, 10:07:03 PM
Boy I sure do like the way you whittle stuff Neil. Yup JB weld has its place and that ain't one of them. :-D

Frank
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Geo on April 02, 2013, 11:04:40 PM
Quote
from a cruise missile or something like that. Whatever...

Neil!

Whatever.... hell! Your addition of all this un-obtanium is so freeking cool! I can't wait to see what's next.

Geo
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 03, 2013, 12:43:15 AM
It's like this-- I've been collecting weird stuff for years, thinking "Hey... that's cool stuff-- it should be good for something- someday." Now "someday" is here and that pile of weird stuff is coming in handy. My wife used to ask "Whatever are you going to do with all this stuff?" These days she hasn't asked that for a while. The philosophy was-- if it is real cheap and seems like it might be useful-- buy it.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 08, 2013, 07:15:20 PM
This is the fifth try to get past "An Error Has Occurred". I've changed the text and the names of the photos and this still happens. This is such a PITA that I suggest disabling this feature!
I have my roof rails now in place temporarily. I made these out of two sections of straight 3/4"x3/4" 6063 T-4 aluminum extrusions. To fit the curvature of the roof line, I hammered the vertical legs moderately so that they achieved a slightly bowed shape. They will be fastened in place later with 1/8" dome head Avex rivets.

Not much else will get done for a while as Joline and I are leaving for Germany on Thursday.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 08, 2013, 07:16:56 PM
pictures
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on April 08, 2013, 07:50:23 PM
Looking good, Neil!

Have fun in the Fatherland! :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 08, 2013, 07:54:19 PM
Ja voll, mein Herr!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 08, 2013, 11:53:12 PM
Tucson will never be the same. Everyone thought the Treits liner was responsible for the Cleco shotage. I beg to differ. Neil, you do lovely work. Enjoy the trip and travel safely. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 09, 2013, 12:32:48 PM
Thanks, Mike. Cleco shortage? Just wait until I start riveting on the stressed aluminum panels!  :-D The chassis will look like a porcupine with all of those Clecos sticking out!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 09, 2013, 11:19:53 PM
Are you going to bond and rivet?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 10, 2013, 12:59:07 AM
Mike;

Rivet for sure; bond-- maybe. It would make the joints stronger and also keep salt out of the faying surfaces.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 14, 2013, 10:01:45 PM
You already submitted this post! You might have accidently double clicked, or tried to refresh.  
Oh no I didn't-- something is wrong with this filter-- it rejects pictures that have never been posted and posts that are not the same as previous attempts. I give up.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on June 14, 2013, 10:23:23 PM
Hey Neil. How about an update?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 14, 2013, 10:32:42 PM
Neil, think out of the box... what was the name of the picture you tried to post.... camera assigned or by you, either one could have been used before by anyone and are in the database.  As soon as you get the picture reject stop... hit the back button... copy your post... then rename your picture by adding a 123 or abc or anything else that might make it unique... if you posted 3 pictures there is no way to know which one it is so rename them all, then hit the back button again so you were where you were when you decided to hit reply... now hit reply... paste in your original post, add the pictures and hit post again.  :x
follow that procedure and life gets a little easier.  :-)
I have started renaming anything I post so I never see the picture reject message.

Rob... you are one cruel dude  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 14, 2013, 11:59:20 PM
Nope, doesn't work. I renamed that picture file "XYZ.jpg" and it was still rejected. I think it must look at the file size or something. Redoing the text also won't help! Arrrggghhh.......................
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Captthundarr on June 15, 2013, 12:19:38 AM
Neil, me and a couple of others had a similar a few days ago but Bob C. and Slim fixed it. Mayhaps its back. :?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on June 15, 2013, 12:08:42 PM
Neil, the car is looking great. When do you think it will be on the salt?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 15, 2013, 05:55:37 PM
Neil:

After you and a couple of others had trouble with the "you've already posted this, silly" message from the system - I asked Bob.  Here's his response:

"All the boards put the photos in the same directory.  If he's uploading a photo with the same name (whether it's the same photo or not) things would get confused.  Adding another character would give it a new name.  I think following the advice and renaming it is the only way around it.... there's no setting or anything I can tweak to change it, it's just the way it is.

As far as posting the message again, I wonder if it really did get posted?  Did he try to do a *new* reply?  I guess I don't know the sequence of events here.

B"

I know - you said that you've tried this and that, even after the machine told you to try it - and it still didn't work.  I'll keep an eye on it - and your hassles - and ask Bob to do so, too.  But when he says there's nothing he can tweak or change -- that tells me that there ain't much that can be done.  Maybe if he and I learn more about the Forum software we can be taught what the heck is happening.  Sorry for the discomfort.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on June 16, 2013, 01:10:54 AM
Just so you know, this same thing happens to me often. I will go back and add a number or letter to the picture then the issue about being posted comes up. It is real hassel. I've not posted a responce to a question because of this more than one time. Just letting you know it's not just Neil.



Neil:

After you and a couple of others had trouble with the "you've already posted this, silly" message from the system - I asked Bob.  Here's his response:

"All the boards put the photos in the same directory.  If he's uploading a photo with the same name (whether it's the same photo or not) things would get confused.  Adding another character would give it a new name.  I think following the advice and renaming it is the only way around it.... there's no setting or anything I can tweak to change it, it's just the way it is.

As far as posting the message again, I wonder if it really did get posted?  Did he try to do a *new* reply?  I guess I don't know the sequence of events here.

B"

I know - you said that you've tried this and that, even after the machine told you to try it - and it still didn't work.  I'll keep an eye on it - and your hassles - and ask Bob to do so, too.  But when he says there's nothing he can tweak or change -- that tells me that there ain't much that can be done.  Maybe if he and I learn more about the Forum software we can be taught what the heck is happening.  Sorry for the discomfort.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 16, 2013, 10:36:30 AM
I get hit, too. So - whenever I'm about to post a photo and some text -- I first of all click "copy" and get the text -- then try posting.  If the post gets rejected becaue of the silly photo already used thing -- at least I've got the text saved and easy to re-do.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 16, 2013, 12:26:07 PM
I've done that too,  Jon but the copied and re-posted version is rejected saying that I've already posted it. Why not just delete the duplication search?

Let me try again-- this time I tried altering the file size as well as the name.

Regards, Neil

BTW, to those who have asked-- I plan to trailer the car up for an inspection at Speed Week. It isn't finished yet but a courtesy inspection can turn up problems that can be rectified.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 16, 2013, 05:41:30 PM
As for trying to paste the text in - and getting rejected again -- unh, I think I do the copy function and then cancel the post and THEN try the new one.  But that won't work if you've already posted and been rejected - since then the post is, indeed, a re-post in the machine's skinny brain.  Perhaps if you altered a letter or seven in the re-post it'd work?

Sorry about this hassle, but - as Bob has told me - there's nothing we can do about it save to find another Forum software, and going there would probably cause sixteen kinds of hassles for everyone.  If and when I find a way to get along with the mess I'll letcha know.

In the meantime, Neil, do make sure you come find Nancy and me at SpeedWeek this August.  We'll be in the usual location - right near the entrance to the pits by registration, and will (we hope) be doing some audio streaming.  Maybe we'll get you to sit and let yourself be "interviewed" online.  Yeah -- good idea, and I guess now I need to make sure I've got at least a pair of useable micronomes available and places to plug 'em into.  Chris?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 16, 2013, 06:14:38 PM
OK, Jon. I'm sorry about whining.... see you on the salt. Thanks for putting up with the hassles of this forum-- we all appreciate it.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on June 17, 2013, 09:48:16 PM
Okay.

You all know how simple I am.

And computers? --- Duh!

My only problem is how to post a picture in a PM.  Any clues?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 17, 2013, 11:40:35 PM
what was the name of the picture you tried to post.... camera assigned or by you, either one could have been used before by anyone and are in the database.  As soon as you get the picture reject stop...
 hit the back button... copy your post... then rename your picture by adding a 123 or abc or anything else that might make it unique... if you posted 3 pictures there is no way to know which one it is so rename them all,
hit the back button again so you were where you were when you decided to hit reply...
now hit reply... paste in your original post, add the pictures and hit post again.  :x
follow that procedure and life gets a little easier.  :-)


If you don't start over you get the you have already submitted that post message... While you will always question if I submitted that post where the hell is it... I can tell you it is lost in Bills back yard...
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 17, 2013, 11:46:20 PM
Okay.

My only problem is how to post a picture in a PM.  Any clues?

you ask them for their email address and send it that way... some of us even have an email link right there by our avatar next to the PM button. 
But Stan, please no pictures of you in your birthday suit...  :-P :-P
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on June 18, 2013, 12:09:10 PM
How come I always just have the one candle?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 18, 2013, 01:09:52 PM
Stan, to make you feel a little better -- I don't know how to attach a photo to a PM, either.  I've decided that there is no way. 

There.  Feel better now? :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Captthundarr on June 18, 2013, 02:09:54 PM
After searching on many different occasions I can say for all certainty that there is no way to post anything on a PM other than the typed word. Email is the only other option.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 05, 2013, 09:13:46 PM
I finished modifying the Mirage nose & radiator support structure and had it sandblasted to remove all the surface crud. Next was the task of cutting a sheet of titanium that was large enough to cover the bottom. It was only 0.012” 6Al-4V so I could cut it with a large pair of compound hand snips. I first made a template out of light cardboard so that I was less likely to make an error and ruin the one sheet that I had. I transferred the template shape to the sheet and it worked just fine—no scrap.

I also outlined the square tube members on to the template which I had taped to the sheet. Then I punched & drilled #30 holes, spaced on 2” centers on the center line of the tube outlines on the template. Punching this thin sheet was easier than drilling but my Roper-Whitney punch had only a 4” throat so I couldn’t reach the hole locations that were not on the edges of the sheet. Then, after taping the sheet & template in position on the bottom of the structure, I drilled through the holes in the sheet into the mild steel tubes with a #30 drill and inserted Clecos along the way.

By match-drilling these holes, they all line up perfectly. After removing the clecos and deburring all the holes, I installed Clecos in all the holes—105 of them! See- you can never have too many clecos...and this is only one panel. The sides will also have stressed panels riveted on. These panels act as stiffeners and strengthen the structure. In addition, they duct the air through the radiator rather than allow it to flow around it.

Later, I’ll prime and paint the structure and then install 1/8” A286 Cherrylock rivets.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on July 05, 2013, 10:38:33 PM
I like your attitude.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 06, 2013, 02:02:20 AM
Neil, where did you learn how to do all this space-age stuff?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 06, 2013, 12:44:55 PM
Wobbly;

I've picked up a little knowledge here and there over the years-- it adds up over time. Some I learned by trial & error but a significant body of knowledge was learned from others... this forum, for example.

Some stuff I learned in school, some in the military (Ordnance direct support for Corporal IIB), and some in an aircraft Airframe & Powerplant course at a local community college. Much of the aircraft stuff can be found in excellent FAA handbooks that can be downloaded free on the internet. I also learned some by subscribing to Machine Design & Design News magazines. Carroll Smith's books were valuable assets on fasteners and plumbing.

Believe it or not, I learned some things by wandering through Tucson aircraft salvage yards (now extinct) and inspecting how the stuff was built. If you keep your eyes and ears open you can learn. Reading is really important.

When I was a kid there was a huge amount or WW II surplus stuff on the market for bargain-basement prices. I bought stuff and then had an opportunity to take it apart and find out what was inside. This prompted a curiosity of how it worked and why it was done that particular way. By following up on those questions, I learned about a wide variety of things.

When I worked for the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Green Bank, WV I had an opportunity to make use of the odd collection of knowledge that I had built up and working there greatly expanded that collection. As a "Technical Specialist" I was expected to know at least something about almost everything. :) Where else could I have worked with guys who had won Nobel Prizes? It was a great experience-- no money, but a great experience.

In my build diary I try to explain what I've done, how I did it, and what stuff I used. I try to be helpful to someone who may have an interest in learning how to do something similar.

One great fear some have is that they can't do something. This fear is almost always triggered by a lack of experience and knowledge. Both can be overcome. Learn and then try-- we all make mistakes but that should not paralyze us into not trying!

OK, off my soap box and back to the shop....

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 06, 2013, 08:54:31 PM
This afternoon I cut some sheet metal to make stressed panels for the sides of the nose & radiator support structure that I put all those clecos into yesterday. These pieces are two triangular shapes, each with a hole at the front for a bolt or pin to secure the fiberglass body to this mild steel frame.

I'm trying to keep the nose panels from corroding from picking up salt from the air intake to the radiator so I didn't want aluminum for these panels. My radiator is aluminum but it is far easier to replace it than replacing these panels when corrosion finally does it in. I looked at what I had and found a sheet of 0.025" Incoloy A286 that would be large enough to cut these two panels out of. A286 is an iron-based superalloy with nickel and chromium. It has very good corrosion properties and very high strength-- 145,000 psi at room temperature so it should work OK. Why choose this exotic stuff? Because I had some-- no other reason.

Now I have to mark & cut the 3/4" holes for the pins as well as drill a Subaru-load of #30 holes for the Cherrylock A286 rivets. Still lots to do...

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on July 07, 2013, 12:30:56 AM
Neil, Thank you for all the information and ideas. Your build and craftsmanship are outstanding, I hope to see the car on the salt.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 07, 2013, 12:55:39 PM
Thanks, John. I was hoping to bring my unfinished car up to Speed Week to get an inspection of the basic layout but it looks like that wouldn't be worthwhile just yet-- still too much to do.

BTW, I forgot to mention how I cut out those A286 panels. The stuff is really tough so sawing it was out of the question and an abrasive cut-off wheel wasn't practical but my cheap little Harbor Freight plasma cutter worked just fine. I dressed the cut edges on a belt sander using a 3M Cubitron abrasive belt. It is a very good abrasive-- the best that I've ever used. I think 3M has a method of orienting the sharpest edges of the ceramic grains in the direction of the cut. Whatever it is it works great.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 07, 2013, 04:17:56 PM
I think I'm drilling #30 holes in my sleep...I drilled a 2" straight line pattern of #30 holes in the 0.025" A286 panels (32 in each side panel) and then Cleco'ed and match-drilled holes in the steel tube support structure. Drilling the A286 wasn't as bad as I thought. Marking each hole with a center punch kept the drill from skating around and a drop of Cool Tool lubricated the drill point. The key to success is just like drilling stainless steel-- use a slow speed and a heavy feed. If the drill is too fast and you dawdle around, the stuff work hardens fast and then it gets real hard to drill!

Now I have to disassemble it and clean everything with solvent (after de-burring the tube holes) before putting on an epoxy primer and then a polyurethane topcoat. I'll only paint the steel tube structure; the stressed panels need no protection from corrosion.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on July 07, 2013, 06:33:00 PM
Neil do you think it need MORE holes?

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 07, 2013, 09:34:52 PM
Maybe one in my head, Freud.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on July 08, 2013, 12:23:34 AM
Congratulations on a sanitary job.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 08, 2013, 12:26:47 PM
Thanks, Freud. I really respect your opinion and all the others on this forum.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 09, 2013, 12:24:01 AM
Try some ACF50 on your aluminum radiator.  My method is to brush or spray it on during fabrication when it can soak into all of the little cracks and crevices.  Then I bolt the part on while it is still wet.  Eventually the part dries and it has a corrosion resistant coating.  You can get the stuff at most airports.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 09, 2013, 09:30:27 AM
Thanks for the suggestion-- I'll look for some and try it.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 10, 2013, 08:22:16 PM
I tried some of Eastwood's 2-part epoxy primer in a spray can today. The hardener is contained in a separate space within the can-- you break that seal internally and then shake the can to mix the two parts.

The can's spray nozzle is the best that I've ever used! It doesn't cover much area but for my steel tube subframe it was just enough to coat the whole thing. The biggest disadvantage is its price, $19.99 a can and Eastwood is the lowest price for this stuff. On the other hand, for small jobs it is more convenient that hauling out the stuff to run a spray gun and then cleaning up the gun afterwards.

I'll spray it with a 2-part polyurethane top coat when this primer is fully cured. I'll post pictures then.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on July 11, 2013, 09:22:12 AM
Neil, this is one of my favorite builds! I can't wait to see it!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 11, 2013, 12:32:29 PM
Thanks-- I've been following your build diary as well-- nice job!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jon on July 11, 2013, 08:46:02 PM
Your build is even more impressive knowing your self taught Neil.
I figured you were a LAME or similar with the skills you have.

Hope to meet you and see your car some day.
jon
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 13, 2013, 12:52:47 PM
Thanks, Jon-- only my humor is lame.

Today I got to try out my $9.99 HF paint spray gun. It’s not a Binks but then it isn’t a $400 gun either—not that a Binks would make any improvement to my paint job. It isn’t a bad spray gun at all.
 
I had previously sprayed a 2-part epoxy primer on, using the Eastwood trick spray can and let it cure for two days. I used a Scotchbrite pad to lightly scuff the primer and then wiped it down with a lintless cloth to remove any dust, etc. The topcoat is a 2-part polyurethane made by Deft “for painting aircraft & aerospace equipment” according to the label. I bought 10 cans of it for $20 total so I really scored on that buy. The label says “Component A Pigmented Polyester Resin MIL-PRF-85285D, Type 1 Class H (MIL-PRF-85285C) Color:33528 Yellow”. The small can says “Component B – Aliphatic Isocyanate Resin etc, etc”. Maybe someone is familiar with this stuff.
 
It looked like a whole can was going to be more than I needed for the Mirage front subframe so I only mixed up half of one can (1 can = 1 quart); it turned out that I had half of that left over and had to throw it away. The trick to getting the el cheapo Harbor Freight spray gun to work right is to run some solvent through the gun before trying to paint with it. The gun is shipped with some sort of preservative which needs to be flushed out, otherwise the paint job will be a mess.
 
The gun was cleaned with xylene before I put it away; hopefully I will be able to use it again. Next step—driving 169 blind rivets.
 
I didn’t choose the “school bus yellow” color—it just turned out that all the cans were that color. Coulda been worse—coulda been purple or even pink.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on July 13, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
I like it!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 13, 2013, 08:04:07 PM
169 rivets later...here is the subframe that supports the front body and radiator. I finished cleaning the panels with xylene and denatured alcohol to remove some nasty tape residue and then lightly went over them with an angle grinder using a yellow 3M bristle brush to brighten up the surface.

 The panels were fastened to the steel tube framework with Cherrylock CR4623-04-02 blind rivets. These are A286 superalloy so I am fortunate to have a little air/hydraulic rivet gun which made pulling the stems a breeze. FSI makes it-- a really nice gun. To seal the faying surfaces against salt & water, I ran a bead of Dow Corning 738 silicone sealer on the tubing before riveting on the panels.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on July 13, 2013, 10:02:45 PM
Lookin awesome Neil!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2013, 07:43:45 PM
I removed the front suspension of my black Mirage today so that I can finish welding some places on the chassis. As long as they were being removed anyway, I thought I’d weigh them to see how heavy each side suspension is.
 
The weight is 45 lbs—this includes the Mustang upright, aluminum hub & wheel studs + lug nuts, big brake rotor, aluminum ‘88 Corvette caliper & bracket, ball joints, tube a-arms, all the rod end bearings, and mounting bolts. Also included are Aldan aluminum shocks & coil springs.
 
This is a little heavier than I had guessed but still not bad. Together with the wheel & tire, the total unsprung weight on each front end is 45lbs + 32 lbs = 77 lbs. Actually it is a little less than this because the inboard ends of the a-arms are supported by the chassis.

Just out of curiosity, I put a few more of the disassembled black Mirage components on a scale to see how much they weighed. Here is the data:
 
Front subframe with riveted panels installed: 21 lbs
 
Aluminum Howe radiator: 12 lbs
 
Wilwood rack & pinion complete end-to-end: 10 lbs
 
Front anti-roll bar, mounts, & drop links: 4 lbs
 
Bassett front wheel & Goodyear racing slick: 32 lbs
 
Bassett rear wheel & Goodyear racing slick: 49 lbs
 
Although I haven’t weighed them, published data indicates:
 
Porsche G50 transaxle: 142 lbs
 
Donovan all-aluminum SBC: 390 lbs
 
I hope to weigh the Mirage body sections and the chassis + roll cage later.

 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Koncretekid on July 21, 2013, 07:53:52 AM

 
I didn’t choose the “school bus yellow” color—it just turned out that all the cans were that color.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


And what would be wrong with yellow???????? You can send a few of your "spare" cans my way!
Tom
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on July 21, 2013, 07:59:16 AM
Hi Neil

You might want to start looking for places you can add some lead to keep your car planted, so you can get a bite and keep it from trying to fly.

Lead is your friend in LSR

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 21, 2013, 12:50:53 PM
Don;

If the car is reasonably light then some lead ballast will be even more effective. Having decent aerodynamics will be a big help, too.

Tom;

Yellow is OK but pink or purple might get me laughed off the salt.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on July 21, 2013, 12:56:05 PM
Neil, the parts seem pretty light, collectively.

That's probably a good thing, because now you can add any weight to needed areas! :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 21, 2013, 12:58:32 PM
Yes, that was the idea.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 21, 2013, 07:31:25 PM
Since I am removing stuff to clear the chassis for final welding, I decided to replace the 10-32 screws that fastened my switch panel to the threaded inserts in its mounting brackets. I had some Southco captive screws so I drilled out the holes a little larger and inserted these finger-operated panel fasteners. They will make removing the panel to get access to the rear electrical terminals much easier.

Looking left to right, there is a pushbutton starter switch, master off switch with a spring-loaded guard, ignition “on” switch, and seven switch/circuit breakers for various electrical components such as fuel pump, ignition box, instruments, 24V power converter, etc.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 22, 2013, 02:07:18 PM
I weighed a few more components as they were removed from my black Mirage:

Battery box and internal battery hold-down bracket: 4 lbs

Instrument panel (complete) and switch/circuit breaker panel (complete): 5 lbs

Titanium shear plate: 3 lbs

Heel support aluminum floor plate with pedals: 7 lbs

Clutch & brake master cylinders and fluid reservoirs + mounting hardware: 4 lbs

I'm doing this out of sheer curiosity-- I have never seen this type of information published before and I've often wondered just where a vehicles total weight comes from. At least for this build, I'll know that for sure.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 22, 2013, 02:10:59 PM
Back in the dark ages I sold big Ford trucks -- and there was all of the weight information available for each and every item and option.  And some went further -- such as if you substituted the 55-gallon fuel tank for the standard 75 gallon tank - - the weight would be listed as a negative number (the smaller tank weighs less than the big one).

The list was (obviously) a big bunch of pages long.  I don't remember if they gave the weight for the custom cigarette lighter vs. the standard one -- but I wouldn't be surprised. . . :roll:

Anyway, you'd be able to determine the weight of the entire semi tractor, before ordering -- if you were very patient and liked playing with the adding machine.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 22, 2013, 02:13:37 PM
Wow, that's amazing, Jon.

These days it's hard to find out much about a new vehicle except the color choices.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 22, 2013, 08:27:00 PM
I removed the titanium roll cage top cover plate today—it weighed 7 lbs.
 
Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 22, 2013, 10:23:30 PM
I removed the titanium roll cage top cover plate today—it weighed 7 lbs.
 
Regards, Neil

Gee, Neil, I hope you didn't throw your back out . . .

 :|



 :wink:



 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 22, 2013, 10:54:23 PM
Throw my back out? Of course not! I had help.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 24, 2013, 08:44:54 PM
Today I cut out three pieces of 1/8” mild steel to reinforce the upper coil-over brackets that attach to the chassis. One is in front and one is in back of each perch. I ran out of material for the last one so I’ll try to pick up some while I’m in town tomorrow.

The first piece I cut out with my reciprocating saw using a bi-metal blade and then dressed the edges with a 4” belt sander. The next two I cut out with a small HF plasma cutter—LOTS easier. Dressing the cut edges took more time but using the plasma cutter made it a far easier job.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on July 24, 2013, 09:15:16 PM
Interesting set of calipers, I need one of those. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Captthundarr on July 24, 2013, 09:33:38 PM
If I think I even know Neil a little, I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut he made it. :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 24, 2013, 09:48:45 PM
Actually it would not be hard to make a scale like that but I got it back around 1970- free if I remember right. It is a nice little sliding scale that looks a lot like an inside/outside caliper. Mitutoyo was trying to get into the US market back then and gave these away as a promotional item. It is a handy item!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 30, 2013, 07:52:58 PM
I removed my firewall this afternoon and put it on the scale-- 11 lbs including all the fasteners. The firewall is made of 0.092" 6Al4V titanium and bolted to the chassis with a bunch of 3/8"-24 bolts. They are NAS6306-6, made of A286, rated at 160ksi.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on July 31, 2013, 10:02:00 AM
Titanium? Wouldn't gold be cheaper? :-D

I really want to see this car up close!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2013, 11:48:39 AM
Titanium? Wouldn't gold be cheaper? :-D

I really want to see this car up close!

Maybe, but it would be much heavier!  :-D My lower firewall is going to be made of Inconel.  :-P

Actually, for years I've been buying surplus stuff like some titanium sheet & bolts whenever I found some that looked useful and were cheap. That investment strategy has been paying off better than a 401(k).

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2013, 12:12:50 PM
I just wanted to let everyone know that my friend, John Horsman, has had his book re-published now as a soft-cover edition. If you suffer through an advertisement, you can read a short excerpt about the very beginning of the Ford GT40 here:

 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02//excerpt-racing-in-the-rain.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I really recommend this book.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on July 31, 2013, 12:37:57 PM
"Page Not Found"  :x

Mike
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2013, 12:39:25 PM
Sorry. Try this: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/automobiles/excerpt-racing-in-the-rain.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on July 31, 2013, 12:45:49 PM
... re-published now as a soft-cover edition...

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Thank you for the updated link.

Where can the book be purchased?  Amazon doesn't have it.

Mike
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2013, 12:52:46 PM
Mike;

The publisher has the soft cover edition: http://www.bullpublishing.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=72

The original hard-cover book is selling for an enormous price. Wow!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: bucketlist on July 31, 2013, 01:19:44 PM


... Carroll Smith's books were valuable assets on fasteners and plumbing...


My favorite advice from Carroll: you don't have to safety wire everything on the race car, just those things you don't want to have fall off.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2013, 03:54:01 PM
I removed a few more components this morning and weighed them:

Right 0.040” 2024-T3 aluminum heat shield plus two oil filters and Dzus fasteners= 5lbs

Left 0.040” 2024-T3 aluminum heat shield plus coolant reservoir and dry sump vent tank= 4lbs

Left side pod 0.078” 6061-T6 aluminum top panel plus two billet aluminum fire bottle mounting brackets= 6lbs

Patterson 3 gallon dry sump oil tank- empty- plus AN fittings= 7lbs

More parts coming off this afternoon.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2013, 06:32:21 PM
Now I need to create an Excel file to keep track of how this is adding up.

Right side 0.078” 6061-T6 aluminum side pod cover plus a billet aluminum 10 lb fire bottle mounting bracket= 3lbs

10lb Fire Bottle= 12 lbs

5lb  Fire Bottle= 6lbs

10lb Automatic Extinguisher plus hose & nozzle= 14lbs

10lb Automatic Extinguisher plus hose & nozzle= 14lbs (yes—two)

10 gallon Fuel Safe fuel cell in an aluminum shoebox container- no gas, just foam baffle=15lbs

Rear anti-roll bar plus mounting brackets and bolts=4lbs

Fiberglass cockpit rear bulkhead, cut to clear roll cage, plus 0.060” 6061-T6 aluminum door jams= 9lbs

The pile of parts is starting to look like a car kit.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 31, 2013, 07:38:51 PM

The pile of parts is starting to look like a car kit.


Which would make it indistinguishable from a disassembled Jag . . .
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2013, 08:42:26 PM
Left upper & lower doors spliced together with latch installed= 14 lbs
 
Right upper & lower doors spliced together with latch installed= 14 lbs
 
T-bar= 1lb
 
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 31, 2013, 11:05:01 PM
Taking the Colin Chapman approach, I see . . .

Or are we just bragging?  :roll:

By the time you throw a coat of paint on it, you're going to double the weight of the car.

 :wink:

:cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2013, 11:18:36 PM
Unfortunately Chapman's cars (and Lolas) broke rather too frequently.  :-P

I'm up to a total of 468lbs but this does not include the front & rear fiberglass body sections, chassis & roll cage, engine, and Porsche G50 Transaxle, rear axles & CV joints, or rear suspension. It'll add up pretty quick!

Compared to your car, mine is a locomotive!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 03, 2013, 06:53:12 PM
Left Rear Suspension with Porsche 996 upright & hub, Porsche 928S4 front rotor & caliper, Aldan coil-over, and Porsche 996 axle & CV joints=79lbs

Right Rear Suspension with Porsche 996 upright & hub, Porsche 928S4 front rotor & caliper, Aldan coil-over, and Porsche 996 axle & CV joints=79 lbs

This is more than I thought it would be but the big brake rotors and beefy axles contribute a lot of weight.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on August 04, 2013, 01:43:30 AM

This is more than I thought it would be but the big brake rotors and beefy axles contribute a lot of weight.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

It's probably STILL less unsprung weight than a Triumph IRS.  :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 04, 2013, 12:26:54 PM
Chris;

Wow-- the Triumph IRS must have been built in a boiler factory and designed in a blacksmith shop. Or is it the other way around?

Fortunately only half the weight of my axles, CV joints and suspension arms are unsprung. It's still a lot of weight, though.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 05, 2013, 06:37:27 PM
I removed the Mirage rear body this afternoon and put it on the scale; it weighs 56 lbs including the two side latches. The front body, including the windshield, weighs 80 lbs. I have cut out the original dash in my Mirage front fiberglass but that would account for only about 2 lbs at most.

Now I need to put the two fiberglass side pod covers on to see how much they weigh.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, Az
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 05, 2013, 07:57:37 PM
The Mirage fiberglass side pod covers weigh 15 lbs each. Now I know.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on August 05, 2013, 08:21:42 PM
I'm laughing my rear end off at this, but I admire you're determination and fortitude in documenting the weight of every single piece.

You clearly have a background in aviation.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 18, 2013, 07:58:25 PM
More trivia:

This afternoon I removed my exhaust headers and put them on the weight scale: each header weighs 17 lbs.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on August 18, 2013, 09:57:43 PM
Do you have a target weight you are shooting for?
I can't wait to see this car!
What spring rates are you planning on using?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 18, 2013, 10:06:23 PM
Do you have a target weight you are shooting for?
I can't wait to see this car!
What spring rates are you planning on using?

No, I don't have a target weight; it will be what it will be. I'm just interested in finding out what things weigh- I've never seen a car weight broken down into individual components before.
Right now I'm using 225lb/in springs on the front and 300lb/in on the rear with Aldan coil-overs. I may have to increase the spring rates depending on how much down force the body generates.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gray63 on August 19, 2013, 07:59:23 AM
Neil,
Thanks for stopping by to visit at Bonneville. It is always good
to visit with friends that we only see one time a year.
I am anxious (as others) to see your amazing creation when completed.

Regards,  Dave Gray
# 3611 56 Corvette
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 19, 2013, 10:34:03 AM
Thanks, Dave-- it was my pleasure. Glad to see you cracked 200 mph!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 19, 2013, 07:40:12 PM
This afternoon I lifted the whole remaining thing up in the air to get its weight. I used an engine hoist to lift it and a Dillon dynamometer to read the weight. The term “Dynamometer” isn’t what we’re used to- it is a weight scale. Why it is called that I don’t know!

The bare chassis and roll cage together with the dash panel & instruments plus the engine (Donovan aluminum 383 with Crower injection) and a Porsche G50 transaxle and shifter weighed 925 lbs.

Flywheel (KEP)= 14 lbs
Pressure plate (KEP)= 14 lbs
Clutch disc= 4 lbs

This brings the total weight up to 1779 lbs. There will be some additional weight added from stressed aluminum panels, etc. but probably not too much more.

When the engine & tranny are pulled, I’ll get their individual weights.

Now I have a pretty good idea of what things weigh.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 21, 2013, 03:18:08 PM
Yesterday afternoon I removed the engine & tranny from my black Mirage. It was a 1-man job since I designed the chassis so that the engine & transaxle could be removed as one piece by removing 8 bolts (as well as axle CV joint bolts, hoses & wiring, of course). I used an engine hoist to lift it straight up and out of the chassis. I’ll now install the flywheel and clutch assembly but I’ll weigh the individual pieces before re-assembling the power train.

I removed the IMI mini-starter and found that it weighs 7 lbs.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 24, 2013, 08:37:45 PM
I removed the transaxle and engine support cradle today. Together with the mounted components- ignition box, coil, and parachute attachment hardware, it weighs 24 lbs.

This stuff was included in the engine & transaxle total weight that I already posted.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 38flattie on August 25, 2013, 07:28:06 AM
Neil, it was great to finally meet you, and put a face to a name! :cheers:

Wow! That car is really light!

I really want to see it, as I LOVE the look of it!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 25, 2013, 11:55:15 AM
Likewise! Your car is impressive and it is actually running!  :-)

I look forward to seeing you at Bonneville next year.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 26, 2013, 03:19:47 PM
I just separated the engine and transaxle this morning and put the tranny on a scale. Here is that data:

Porsche G50 transaxle plus hydraulic clutch slave cylinder, KEP aluminum adapter, and rear aluminum support bracket= 157 lbs.

This is a bit more than what I've seen published for a G50 (143 lbs & 146 lbs) but the adapter plate and rear support bracket probably accounts for the difference.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 02, 2013, 09:39:45 PM
Over the last few days I’ve removed the engine & transaxle from the chassis to install a clutch & pressure plate. I’ve learned a few things in the process— the hole in the rear of my Lunati crankshaft is the early Chevy 1.709” diameter. The KEP adapter pilot bearing is a caged needle bearing pressed into an aluminum cylinder; unfortunately I found that it was slightly oversized and it‘s now stuck in the crank, protruding about 1/8” and it will not go in any further. I’ll drill & tap two holes in the aluminum and pull it out and toss it into the trash. I have found a ball bearing that might fit without any aluminum sleeve so it is now on order.

Porsche did not distinguish themselves with the G50 clutch design. The original rubber center clutch disk had a habit of disintegrating so it was retrofitted by customers with a spring-centered disk made by Sachs. The clutch release lever arm also has problems—Porsche used caged needle bearings in the pivot and, after some time, those bearings disintegrated. A new bearing “upgrade” was offered but it was necessary to machine the tranny case to fit. The “upgrade” was later upgraded and then the cutting tool for the first upgrade was discontinued. Now the latest version uses plastic bushings in the lever arm and caged needle bearings on the cross shaft. This shaft is not allowed to rotate, so why they use needle bearings to support a shaft that doesn’t rotate is beyond me.

The choice of needle bearings for a clutch release arm is particularly bone-headed. A needle, roller, or ball bearing is not suited for an application where it simply rocks back and forth a few degrees; eventually it forms a channel in the grease and begins to fret the bearing and race. Eventually the bearing fails—add some clutch dust and it hastens to failure. Porsche trumpets their engineering expertise but I have to wonder how they could make such basic errors. I’m going to insert two Fabroid bushings for my cross-shaft. Those won’t fail.

Another lesson—the earlier G50 throwout bearing ID was 34mm and it slid forward & back on a 34mm OD guide tube. For some unexplained reason, Porsche changed to a 32mm throwout bearing and guide tube. Fortunately, the KEP kit had the right TO bearing for my G50 (34mm). I bought the KEP adapter kit some time ago so it would be a good idea to measure the guide tube in your G50 before buying a TO bearing. A new guide tube is about $80 so it isn’t a tragedy if your TO bearing isn’t the right size.

I have thought about ordering a KEP metallic clutch disk but the Sachs disk in a KEP Stage II pressure plate looks like it will handle the torque of this engine.

It’s an adventure!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 02, 2013, 09:49:39 PM
I had quite a few fluorescent tubes that were going bad in my workshop so I replaced them all at the same time. The tubes are 4ft 40W with 4 in each fixture. The new type tubes are much brighter and give a much better “daylight” color spectrum. 

If you are replacing any florescents, here are the ones I’d recommend:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 02, 2013, 10:05:10 PM
The choice of needle bearings for a clutch release arm is particularly bone-headed. A needle, roller, or ball bearing is not suited for an application where it simply rocks back and forth a few degrees; eventually it forms a channel in the grease and begins to fret the bearing and race.

I agree - That's a whole lot of "gee wiz, Ferdinand".
 
Even in an application like rocker arms, where the argument could be made that needle bearings permit the oil to carry away heat, a simple bushing is a safer, smarter and cheaper bet.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 02, 2013, 10:19:01 PM
Now I understand why the Schweinfurt raid was so important!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on September 02, 2013, 11:17:46 PM
Neil:  Excellent motor shots.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 05, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
Drilling & tapping two 1/4-28 holes in the aluminum throwout bearing adapter allowed me to pull it out of the crank without further drama. The ball bearing arrived today and it looks perfect. It is a 15 x 43 mm sealed ball bearing made for car alternators. It fits on the nose of the Porsche G50 clutch pilot shaft as it should and the OD is a good light fit into the recess in the crank. I'll use Loctite Bearing Retainer on it to make sure it is in the crank properly. The Fabroid bushings look fine, too.

I'm surprised that no one else has discovered this size ball bearing-- everyone who mates a G50 to a SBC seems to still use the needle bearing pressed into the aluminum adapter-- the one that I had problems with.  :?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 05, 2013, 09:53:34 PM

I'm surprised that no one else has discovered this size ball bearing-- everyone who mates a G50 to a SBC seems to still use the needle bearing pressed into the aluminum adapter-- the one that I had problems with.  :?


I'd say they just lack the balls.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 05, 2013, 09:54:07 PM
Aaarrrggghhhh...............................
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2013, 01:14:47 PM
Here is my new ball bearing pilot:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on September 07, 2013, 01:26:06 PM
I sure wish more things said "USA" where they say "CHINA".  :| :| :cry: :cry:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on September 07, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
That's Yankee ingenuity.

F8 Ford     Good Job

Ya gotta be old to know that one.

Like 1953 Ford advertising.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on September 07, 2013, 01:33:47 PM
I think I am wrong.

I believe the ad was  F8 Ford  BIG JOB.

It was about their trucks.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2013, 02:38:16 PM
I sure wish more things said "USA" where they say "CHINA".  :| :| :cry: :cry:

Pete

Yeah, me too. I'd rather have one made by Timken but they don't make one in this odd 15x43mm size.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 07, 2013, 02:54:40 PM
I sure wish more things said "USA" where they say "CHINA".  :| :| :cry: :cry:

Pete

Yeah, me too. I'd rather have one made by Timken but they don't make one in this odd 15x43mm size.


Neil, I doubt anybody will ever accuse you of bringing a knife to a gunfight.

I tend to agree with our Canadian friend - but regardless of the part's country of origin, the ingenuity remains American.

And clearly a case of overkill American ingenuity!  :cheers:

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2013, 09:17:44 PM
My KEP flywheel is now bolted to the SBC crankshaft with Loctite and 60 lb-ft of torque. The 240mm Sachs clutch disk was centered using a Craftsman set that I bought years ago and last used to assemble a clutch to my Ferrari engine flywheel (128F—long gone); fortunately the bushings included in that set fit the metric stuff that I need in both cases. (photo)

The KEP stage II pressure plate was bolted to the flywheel with the 8mm socket head cap screws provided by KEP. Reassuringly, they are grade 12.9. Loctite and 29ft-lbs evenly applied to the 9 bolts drew up the fingers of the clutch diaphragm. The Porsche G50 throwout bearing is different than most—it is a pull-type to release the pressure on the clutch disk.

Pressure plate  G50 Throwout Bearing (photo)

Porsche made a bad mistake by using caged needle bearings on the G50 clutch release lever pivot. In this application the bearing does not fully rotate on the shaft so it eventually begins fretting and finally failing. Here is a bad needle bearing (photo)

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JimL on September 07, 2013, 09:19:34 PM
Maybe dont loctite that bearing in?  We used similar bearing in Land Cruisers, long ago.  They get pounded a little by the rock in the input shaft when not in direct drive (countershaft side load effect).  Once the balls start flat spotting, the pilot bearing sticks.  The input shaft tries to spin in the inner race, which welds itself.  After the balls break up, you can drive for years.

When its time to get the trans out, you use big pry bars to get the trans(and every thing its now stuck to) out of the crankshaft just far enough to reach in and cut the center out of the disc...or just cut the input shaft off.  The center of the pilot bearing will not come out through the clutch disc broach.  In your case, you would be able to get the trans off if you can reach the pressure plate bolts.

On the Cruisers, due to wrap around bell housing type, I finally made it the rule to cut the input shaft.  It was easier to put out only one fire, under the car, than three or four while I tried to cut all the webs in the disc!  I still have scars from gobs of flaming grease falling on my arms.  Ahhh, to be young and foolish again.

It all made me understand why GM was smart to use a plain old bushing. :|

JimL
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2013, 09:23:07 PM
G50 Needle Bearing

The original had two bearings like that and it created lots of problems for Porsche owners but a $$ income for the repair shops. The original:

G50 Original Porsche Pivot with Needle Bearings  

Original Porsche cross-shaft: (photo)

The cure is to do away with the needle bearings altogether.

G50 Revised Clutch Pivot:  (photo)

In the G50 case “ears”, I’m using Fabroid bushings. The shaft itself does not rotate—it is pinned to the case so there is no reason to get fancy here.

G50 case ear with Fabroid Bushing (photo)

So far, so good, as the guy said as he fell past the 10th floor window...

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2013, 09:28:54 PM
JimL

The pilot bearing should have very little use in my application (far less than a Land Cruiser, especially off-road) so I think I'll be OK with a ball bearing TO bearing. If not, you can say "I told you so" and I'll buy you a beer.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JimL on September 08, 2013, 12:01:17 AM
We should both live so long, as they say!  I have no idea why I thought you Or me should worry about it. :?

Thats the trouble with a lifetime of memories....
....we are stuck with a lifetime of memories that we keep applying to a new day.

Regards, JimL

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 09, 2013, 08:41:28 PM
Placing a Porsche G50 transaxle in an inverted position requires that the former drain plug become the case vent and vice-versa. I reworked the original drain plug by drilling the plug through and knocking out the small magnet. Then I tapped the hole with a 7/16-20 tap for a #4 AN fitting.

The nice thing about this vent method is that the 10mm hex wrench can still be used to unscrew the vent plug from the case; the hex is threaded only partially—below that the hole is fully threaded.

I cut off the extended portion of the original vent and filled the openings with JB Weld epoxy to seal the openings.

No special fittings were required since the original Porsche fittings were simply modified for their new purpose.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 10:38:58 PM
Neil,

Love the car and build. Exciting to see all the exotic metal and pieces. Do you have a total weight yet? How will you set the oil level in the inverted transaxle?

Geo
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 09, 2013, 11:04:15 PM
Thanks, Geo. It is slowly going together. so far it looks like I have a total of 1779 lbs but there will be some additional odds & ends that may add another 100 lbs. This is dry weight.

I'll just add the recommended volume of gear lube; that should be about right for inverted too.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on September 10, 2013, 09:34:50 AM
Neil, Your workmanship is soooo amazing! I cant wait to see this car on the salt.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: lsrjunkie on September 10, 2013, 11:20:59 AM
Pretty trick stuff Neil!  :cheers: That thing is awesome, keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 01, 2013, 09:17:10 PM
Not much to report, but I did get a couple of blind nut plates riveted to the inside of the fiberglass nose of my black Mirage. Normally the nose is held in place by a 3/8” bolt running through a welded-in bushing in the support tube structure and then through a hole in the fiberglass. A washer and nut then are added and it takes two people to tighten it—one with a wrench on the bolt head inside the nose opening and the other person turning a ratchet on the nut inside the fender. It’s so far into the front of the nose that one person can’t reach both at the same time.

I wanted to eliminate the need to hold a nut on the inside of the fender so I found a couple of 7/16-20 floating nut plates in my stash and used them to provide a threaded nut inside the fender. I drilled the steel bushing out to 7/16” and the original hole in the fiberglass to 1/2” to allow the bolt to float a bit to line up the holes. I then riveted the nut plate onto inside of the fiberglass fender panel.

I had planned on installing a Rivnut in the fiberglass panel but they are hard to find in sizes over 3/8”; besides they would not have allowed any lateral float so the holes would have had to be far more accurately located. This nut plate is also a “prevailing torque” type so it will not come loose under vibration.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on October 01, 2013, 11:02:58 PM
Easier to see.
Title: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on October 26, 2013, 10:07:19 AM
Neil ,
I could only imagine what you would come up with if you built a Streamliner or Lakester. I bet that it would be completely awesome. You are truly gifted!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 26, 2013, 12:44:05 PM
Wow- it's going to be hard to live up to those expectations!

Seriously-- thanks. This is a fun project and I'm looking forward to driving it, whatever speed it achieves.

A small displacement streamliner would be an interesting thing to try but I'm afraid that it would be "a bridge too far."

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 02, 2013, 08:34:01 PM
I’ve stripped my black Mirage down to the bare chassis to finish welding everything so I had an opportunity to weigh it by hanging it from an engine hoist. The steel tube chassis is 400 lbs, as close as I could read the scale. This includes the steel tube chassis and full roll cage plus the gear shift mechanism. Stressed aluminum panels will add a few more pounds when the chassis is finished and painted. Not exactly a road-race weight but it is what it is to meet the SCTA rule book.

Unfortunately I blew out the diaphragm in my oxygen regulator so I can’t do any more welding until the repair kit I just ordered arrives.
As Miss Emily Latella used to say on Saturday Night Live—“It’s always something!”.  :cry:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 03, 2013, 01:51:57 PM
I previously posted the weight of my black Mirage bare chassis as 400 lbs but I overlooked a few things that were still in the chassis. I removed those and re-weighed the bare chassis, which includes a full roll cage. The weight is 359 lbs.

I also weighed a few odds & ends: 

Left side stainless steel coolant tubing plus silicone hose connectors and T-bolt clamps: 8 lbs.

Right side stainless steel coolant tubing plus silicone hose connectors and T-bolt clamps: 8 lbs (estimated-not finished yet).

The total so far is 1804 lbs but some aluminum panels, gussets, etc. will bump this up a bit.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on November 13, 2013, 09:00:44 PM
Neil, have you made any progress lately?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 14, 2013, 07:00:16 PM
My main accomplishment has been to blow out the diaphragm in my O2 regulator.  :-P 

I had the torch tip in a restricted area and the flame blew out and it flashed back. During the downtime I've been getting both my tanks refilled and making gussets and doubler plates so when I got my torch back in operation I'd be ready to weld those on.

I got a deal on a Harris Radnor O2 regulator this afternoon at a welding shop in town so now I should be welding up a storm tomorrow.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 07, 2013, 03:48:30 PM
Problems, problems. The el cheapo engine hoist that I bought at Costco a few years ago worked fine until last week when it refused to lift anything. Apparently the hydraulic ram went bad-- probably an internal seal. I tried the usual things-- nothing worked, so I needed to replace it. I found a replacement 8 ton long-stroke hydraulic ram at Harbor Freight and it was a perfect replacement. So I'm back up and welding again. A trip to Nashville for Thanksgiving hasn't helped my progress but it made Joline happy--- something very important!  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on December 07, 2013, 04:17:08 PM
Glad to see you back in production mode. We are looking forward to some pics.
Btw, I just finished Mark Donahue's book titled "Unfair Advantage". I learned a lot about Can-Am series and the cars of the era. I'm a bigger fan if these cars because of it. I really enjoyed the read.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on December 07, 2013, 06:45:10 PM
Replacing an item with a Harbor Freight thing may be problematic, Neil.  But I'm figuring that we may outlive their usefulness at our age. 

They take great pride in their product.  I bought a jack there a couple of years ago.  Asked if I wanted to buy an extended warranty for it.
"For how long?"
"One year."
"How long is the regular warranty?"
"Thirty days"

I guessed that I would, at the most, only use it once every 30 days, so, no.  So far, I think I'm ahead of them.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 07, 2013, 06:47:02 PM
Yes, the Can-Am Series was unique and exciting. Yesterday, surfing the internet, I was sad to find that Bob Peckham, the owner/driver of the McLaren M8C that I crewed for died back in 2009.

Photos will be forthcoming!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 07, 2013, 06:49:06 PM
...but for $59.99 and no shipping cost it will last long enough to be a bargain.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on December 08, 2013, 11:25:58 AM
HF tools are not meant for constant professional use... but are a bargain for the occasional user... most of us meet that definition
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on December 08, 2013, 04:24:22 PM
Hi Rob

If you like the Can-Am you might pick up a copy of ' Al Bartz Engine Man ' by Phil Henny

I think you can buy it off of Phil's site or Amazon

Since I was Al's first man in the shop I had the pleasure of being asked by Phil to write a chapter in his book, very interesting on how Travers & Coons at Traco figures into all the Can-Am racing

Good Background how people get their start in the racing game

Being a nail bender then taking the two steps going into Al's shop changed my life for ever

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 08, 2013, 05:05:13 PM
G Don;

Our aluminum big block Chevies were built by Engine Systems Development-- George Bolthoff. Remember him? They were very reliable-- we never DNF'd.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on December 08, 2013, 06:28:29 PM
Hi Neil

Sure I remember George, I helped Tom Larkin with his gas dragster and they raced each other a few times

George set the Hilborn on his car to run rich and puff out some black smoke , plus have a un-even idle to it to be a standout from the rest of the blown gas dragsters and it sounded pretty neat

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on December 10, 2013, 05:03:55 PM
Just a quick note about Traco, there is a new book out "Race Man" about Jim Travers and Traco. It is written by Gordon Chance (AKA, "Ricky Nelson, The Teen Age Tuner"). Great book and all of the greats are in it,Frank Coons, George Bolthoff, Stu Hilborn, Stu VanDyne, and many more. I think you can probably get it at the Automotive Book Store in Burbank. Great reading if you are a fan of the history of American motor sports.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on December 10, 2013, 05:27:49 PM
Hi Rex

The last 10 yrs of building engines I did my dyno testing at Traco from about 75' to 85'

What a great bunch of guys, when I first went there Stu was there then went to Drake - Then Eddie Hansen left to run Ron Shavers new engine shop and right before it got sold John Edgar left and opened his shop for doing offroad truck engines

The last time I was there the new owner was trying to learn running the dyno

Now the Traco name is on the oil in & outs that someone in NC is making I think?

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 20, 2014, 09:18:40 PM
I guess Nothing has been heard from me about my build for quite a while. Some time has been devoted to doing some design consulting work but now I've gotten back to the fun stuff.

I haven't been idle. My wife is in Australia for a month so I'm making the most of my free time. I have everything stripped down to the bare chassis and I have been finishing the welding and making gussets, etc. In a few places where rectangular tubing joints form an appropriate shape, I have cut out sheet steel pieces and welded them on so as to form a closed box structure. By adding a bit of light gauge sheet metal, that structure becomes much stronger & stiffer. It takes time, though.  :-(

There is nothing exciting or photogenic about what I've been doing so I have not posted anything lately. It's just drudge work-- but necessary.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 20, 2014, 09:58:40 PM
I might as well post a couple of pictures-- nothing exciting, though. The bare chassis is being finish welded. I don't have a rotisserie so I've made do with an engine hoist and a pair of sturdy metal sawhorses.  In these pictures, I've turned the chassis up on its left side for easier access to joints that I'm welding and also for adding gussets to the cage structure.

After the welding is finished, I'll haul it to town to get it media blasted. Then I'll bring it back home to prime it with a 2-part epoxy primer and then top coat it with the trick aerospace polyurethane that I found. Then it's back on the sawhorses to add a stressed 7075-T6 aluminum panel across the underside and also additional paneling in the sides of the cockpit. Then put all the stuff I stripped off back on. Hah! Nothing to it!  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on May 27, 2014, 08:49:32 AM
Neil,
Thank you so much for the great update! So glad to here that you've had some time to work on her. I know exactly what you mean when you talk about not posting when mundane stuff seems boring.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 27, 2014, 09:59:08 AM
Cool pics Neil.

Thanks. :cheers: :cheers:

I used the "A" frames that I mount my block and tackle to, to make a rotisserie.
I welded some rectangular tubing across each one at the height I wanted and then cobbled up a swivel system.
It's carried a few tons.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 31, 2014, 02:56:02 PM
I'm still working of finishing the chassis. I had looked it over and marked each joint that needed to be finish welded with a piece of blue masking tape. There are far fewer pieces of tape showing now than when I started so that's progress.

I needed to find the recommended mounting points for a 7-point harness and finding that info was a real scavenger hunt. I finally found it. But nobody provided information about the size of the bolt holes they used for their safety harness attachment hardware. I finally called Joe at DJ Safety and he told me they use 7/16" holes in their hardware. Thanks, Joe! Now I can add the necessary brackets to my chassis.

I need to make the lower bottom of the right side pod a little bit wider to fit the fuel cell can plus some padding and there are still a couple of gussets that I need to cut and weld on but it is coming together.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on May 31, 2014, 05:56:33 PM
Neil:

Looks good. Almost to the tipping point where the chassis gets painted and it is time to start putting together.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on May 31, 2014, 08:09:16 PM
   Neil,
   That's funny. I was at the bolt supply store in Billings a couple of weeks ago, and was told that 7/16 bolts were obsolete and being discontinued. I got what I needed and later was at Lowe's and Home Depot and there are no 7/16 bolts in their inventory. Why does it surprise me that racing products companies are still using them. Soon, I'm sure that all of the sanctioning bodies will require them and want an SFI certification number on them. [They will only be available from Simpson [read NHRA], DJ Safety, or Deist.
  Doug  :evil: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 31, 2014, 09:41:04 PM
Doug;

I wonder if the guy in Billings was just BS-ing you to cover up the absence of 7/16" bolts in their inventory. They may not be the fastest selling bolt size but there are still plenty of 7/16" holes that need them. I try to use AN/MS/NAS bolts if I can find them at an affordable price-- lots of 7/16" bolts used in mil/aerospace. Maybe somebody better tell ARP that they are producing "obsolete" hardware.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 31, 2014, 09:45:38 PM
BR;

After the welding is finished (soon, I hope) the next step is to haul the chassis into Tucson for a sandblasting, and after getting it home it will get a 2-part epoxy primer before shooting the trick topcoat.

Then, as you said-- put everything back on. That is, after installing stressed aluminum panels with a zillion rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gray63 on June 01, 2014, 08:50:43 AM
Neil,
We are all anxiously awaiting the appearance of your creation on the salt.
It has been a long time coming, but I suspect it will be worth the wait.
Any chance August 2014 for it's debut?
Thanks for the update.

Dave Gray
# 3611
56 Corvette
BGMS
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2014, 12:50:41 PM
So have I, Dave!  :wink:

I hope to have the chassis done and at least get that up to Speed Week for a preliminary tech inspection.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on June 01, 2014, 12:58:28 PM
OOOOOH!  :-o

Pity we won't see it run, but I'm looking forward to checking it out!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2014, 01:13:19 PM
Thanks, Chris. I look forward to the Midget exceeding its previous speed by a substantial margin.

At least it's getting there. It would be nice to have it ready to run but there's still just too much to do.

Joline has been in Australia and now NZ for the last three weeks so I've had time to get a lot of work done. She won't be back for another week so I'll continue to work on the car.

I just ran out of gas-- my oxy-acetylene bottles-- so I won't be able to do any welding today but there are still other things to do, cut out some aluminum panels, for one. Working on this thing by yourself has lots of drawbacks-- things just don't get done very fast!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2014, 03:17:02 PM
I was just out in a trailer that I use for storage, scrounging around for a big piece of aluminum that I remembered saving to use as a stressed panel across the bottom of my chassis. After measuring it, it is large enough to do what I planned. It's 0.063" Alclad 7075-T6 which is really strong-- its ultimate tensile strength is equivalent to 0.076" 1020 cold-rolled steel. I just washed it off and the next step is to take it into the shop and lay it on the upside-down chassis and draw an outline to cut it to size.

I found a few lengths of 7075 angle, too which should be useful for making brackets for brake line fittings, etc. Lunch time so I'm taking a break.

Whew, it's getting hot; 94F here already but it is supposed to reach 105F in town today. We are a little higher that the city; we are at 3,000 ft here in Diamond Bell Ranch. I can tell the humidity has risen a little here.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Graham in Aus on June 01, 2014, 07:32:02 PM
Hope your wife's having a good time in Aus. Neil and great to see you moving ahead with the car, it's a special build yours, more exotic materials coming out too, great stuff!

I had a look at Diamond Ranch Road! Wow  :-o, you're out in the BIG country there!

Keep up the work on the car, but look after yourself too!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2014, 08:40:38 PM
Thanks, Graham. We are out here in the desert a ways.

Joline was in Sydney & Melbourne for two weeks and enjoyed her time there. She was impressed by how nice the people were. Today she's flying from Christchurch to Rotorua. She said that Cristchurch still looks like it was bombed; still a lot of damage from their devastating earthquake. She took the Trans Alpine train from Queenstown to Greymouth and was thrilled at the snow-capped mountains. I reminded her that Sir Edmund Hillary was from NZ.  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 01, 2014, 09:48:38 PM
Neil, Glad to hear Joline is having fun down in the islands.

Yes folks, Neil is a little out in the desert... Any road with a cattle guard is considered out in the big country.

Good to see you are not just sitting around eating BonBons and drinking beer in Joline's absence.  Keep up the good work, I'll see you at SpeedWeek.  :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2014, 10:03:26 PM
Stainless;

Actually, you had to cross two cattle guards to get here.  :-D

A few beers and a handful of M & Ms are good for energy-- aren't they?   :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 01, 2014, 10:09:36 PM
Stainless;

Actually, you had to cross two cattle guards to get here.  :-D

A few beers and a handful of M & Ms are good for energy-- aren't they?   :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Breakfast of Champions  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on June 01, 2014, 11:11:30 PM
For a shameless subscription to this thread......

Niel, your about the same distance west of I-19 as I am east of it over here in Vail.  Just remember to keep yourself hydrated.

Take care
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2014, 11:20:19 PM
Drop by sometime for a visit!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on June 01, 2014, 11:37:58 PM
Will do.  I will be out of town for the next two weeks but when I get back I'll drop you a PM for your address.

In the meantime, hydrate!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on June 01, 2014, 11:55:38 PM
Stainless;

Actually, you had to cross two cattle guards to get here.  :-D

A few beers and a handful of M & Ms are good for energy-- aren't they?   :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Peanut or regular?   :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jl222 on June 02, 2014, 12:21:48 AM
Stainless;

Actually, you had to cross two cattle guards to get here.  :-D

A few beers and a handful of M & Ms are good for energy-- aren't they?   :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

  A porkchop in every can :cheers:

          JL222
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 02, 2014, 12:25:09 AM
Stainless;

Actually, you had to cross two cattle guards to get here.  :-D

A few beers and a handful of M & Ms are good for energy-- aren't they?   :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Peanut or regular?   :roll:

Peanut, of course. Jimmy Carter needs the money now that he's unemployed.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 03, 2014, 05:07:05 PM
Sometimes I get lucky but not often.

A long time ago a friend asked me if I wanted  a good-sized piece of sheet aluminum. His dad worked for the AZ Dep't of Transportation and his road maintenance crew had found it lying alongside of I-19. From a couple of cutouts, it looked like someone had used it as a pickup truck bed liner but it must have flown out of the truck before it was scratched and scarred by cargo. It was 0.063" Alclad 7075-T6 and said "sure, I'll take it", thinking that someday it would be useful.

Now I'm using that piece of free aluminum on the bottom of my chassis. Thanks, Dave!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 03, 2014, 08:27:38 PM
Here is a photo of that aluminum sheet clamped to the bottom of my chassis. I laid it on the chassis and marked its required outline from the underside. The next step was to turn it over so the Magic Marker lines were visible and clamp a piece of angle as a straight line guide for my little el cheapo HF plasma cutter. After the piece was cut, I dressed the edges with an abrasive flap wheel. Next I'll lay out a rivet pattern with about 250 #20 holes. That is not going to be fun but countersinking them will be even worse!

I've been looking a long time for two 5/8" bolts for the bottom of my rear uprights that would be higher quality than the grade 8 bolts that I now use. I was fortunate enough to find what I need on eBay-- two MS bolts made by SPS that are exactly the right size. Commercial bolts are not suitable for some applications where a bolt is in shear. The threads should not be in the joint between two structures; this places the threads in shear which is much weaker than the full diameter shank. Aerospace/military bolts are made in different lengths with only a short threaded section so the bolt can develop its full strength. These bolt sizes are determined by "grip length".

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 04, 2014, 12:14:55 AM
Neil, are you going to bond and rivet the Alclad?.

That is one expensive piece of metal. Big bucks over here. :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2014, 12:22:08 AM
Not a bad deal when it's free, Mike! Actually, I'm going to try to seal the faying surfaces and rivet holes with sealant as I assemble it to prevent-- as far as possible-- salt corrosion. My rivets are CherryMax & CherryLock 5/32" (-5)  A286 or Monel body & mandrel.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on June 04, 2014, 12:38:59 AM
My rivets are CherryMax & CherryLock 5/32" (-5)  A286 or Monel body & mandrel.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

I didn't know Ace Hardware had a produce aisle . . .  :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2014, 12:51:28 AM
Ya just gotta cherry- pick your groceries, Chris.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 04, 2014, 09:48:57 AM
Neil, if you bond and rivet the plate it becomes one with the chassis.

I did similar work on Trans Am projects and it eliminates any flex that might be a problem while also acting as a seal. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2014, 12:56:52 PM
I agree, Mike-- it would be preferable to bond the aluminum to the chassis tubes but it would complicate things for me. To get a good bond, the chassis tubes would need to be bare and the aluminum would as well. I need to prime & paint both before riveting.

My saving grace is that the rivets I'm using are extraordinarily strong. They are 5/32" dia with a Monel body and 15-7PH stem. They have a shear strength of 2260 lbs-- way stronger than equivalent aluminum/aluminum CherryMax and way, way stronger than ordinary Pop rivets. In fact, the rivets are stronger than the bearing strength of the 0.063" 7075-T6. The sheet holes will tear before the rivets fail. Bonding would be better but a 1" spacing rivet pattern should be OK.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on June 04, 2014, 01:08:11 PM
Neil,
  Does the expansion/contraction of the aluminum attached to the steel chassis present an issue?
The reason I ask is I've seen what an aluminum deck on a steel trailer frame does when left in the sun.

 Thanks, Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Don;

A couple of things to allay your concern-- good question, though:

Trailer aluminum skins are thinner than cheap toilet paper; there is very little rigidity in those panels. Mine is far thicker- 0.063" or 1/16".

The panel is riveted to the bottom of the chassis; hopefully it won't be exposed to direct sunlight  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2014, 07:49:01 PM
64 holes drilled so far but those holes aren't really "finished" so I can't check them off as done yet. I laid out a 1' spacing rivet pattern, marked the hole locations with a p_r_i_c_k punch (this is not a disabling karate blow  :evil: It's like a center punch but the tip has a sharper angle), and drilled the holes with a #30 drill. These will serve as pilot holes for a #20 drill later.

May people ask about this so I'll post a picture of two different types of Cleco clamps-- one is the ordinary spring-loaded clamp that is installed with special pliers that compress its spring. When a Cleco is inserted into a hole and the pliers relax the tension, the spring inside pulls the two sheets together by expanding its diameter (and aligning the holes in both sheets) by catching the rear of the bottom hole with small "ears" on its expandable shaft. This type of Cleco is common, easy to find, and relatively inexpensive.

The less common Cleco is the larger one. It is called a "cylindrical Cleco" and it has far greater pull-up force that the little ones. Instead of an internal spring to generate clamping force,  it has a threaded spindle and it is installed by turning the top of the spindle. There are pneumatic tools to install these but there is a little manual tool that is handy & cheap. A small circular collar with a sprag clutch lets you turn it one way to tighten and if it is turned over, to loosen the clamp.

While I'm at it, let me put in a plug for pneumatic drills in this application. The one I'm using is a 4500 RPM air drill with a 1/4" chuck. It probably dates back to the Korean War but it still works nicely. Air drills have a number of advantages-- high RPM which is what you want for drilling small holes, it doesn't get hot (in fact the drill gets cold), you can stall it without burning up the motor, and it is small and lightweight.

This stuff may be obvious & boring to you guys who've been around a long time but I thought I'd pass along a little knowledge to those who haven't.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2014, 07:53:19 PM
I had to put underscores to get that word to go through. The "spell check" kept substituting the phrase "penile device"   :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on June 04, 2014, 07:59:22 PM
Neil, is this belly pan going to be removable, If not how you going to get the salt out of the nooks and crannies, I would dzus it so everything is easier to clean. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 04, 2014, 08:27:11 PM
Neil:

I appreciate the detailed explanation. I know about the regular clecos but never heard about the large screw type. I have never seen one until your picture. I can see where that is a handy device when you need additional grip. I always learn something from your post.

I now use a little punch I have with a built in magnifier it helps the old eyes get the punch on the mark. I bought it on a machine tool site. Comes in handy when I need to be exact.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2014, 08:31:50 PM
Glen;

Stainless mentioned the same thing when he dropped by for a visit last month. I realize that some salt is  eventually going to get into virtually everything but I'm going to make an effort to keep as much salt out as possible. First, the chassis will be primed with a PTI 2-part zinc chromate epoxy primer and then top coated with a Deft 2-part polyurethane isocyanate resin. The aluminum panel will also be primed with the same PTI primer. It won't resist corrosion forever but it should probably be OK for a couple of seasons.

The joint between the chassis tubes and the panel (the so-called "faying surface) will be sealed with an odd product from CRC-- a "foam RTV". Comes in a can and you apply it just like using a can of Reddi-Whip-- no kidding! The rivets will be dipped in Hylomar before being placed into their holes and pulled.

No doubt a removable panel held on by Dzus fasteners would be far simpler and easy to remove but my panel is a stressed panel that is part of the chassis structure, Dzus fasteners can't be used on stressed panels- they are not strong enough and you'd need too many to distribute the stress over a wide area. You & Stainless raised a valid point.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2014, 08:34:15 PM
Neil:

I appreciate the detailed explanation. I know about the regular clecos but never heard about the large screw type. I have never seen one until your picture. I can see where that is a handy device when you need additional grip. I always learn something from your post.

I now use a little punch I have with a built in magnifier it helps the old eyes get the punch on the mark. I bought it on a machine tool site. Comes in handy when I need to be exact.

BR

A punch with a magnifier is a great idea! Thanks, BR. I learned something, too.  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 04, 2014, 09:10:17 PM
Neil:

Cant remember where I bought this but they had a few sizes. Wish I had bought the other two sizes. This sat in my drawer for 15 years until I started needed reading glasses and my punch makes and drill holes were missing the mark.  Does not look like a hard item to make. I think I will take a stab at making a larger one from a dollar store magnifier.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 04, 2014, 09:19:01 PM
Neil, same tools different country. :-)

All my Clecos including the larger threaded variety live in a container of Acetone.
Their use isn't restricted to metal in my shop and a long time ago I had to throw quite a few away due to resin contamination.
School fees!!!.

Clecos are the coolest tools I have period. :cheers:

I also have thousands of blind rivets but have yet to buy a tool to install them.
My only experience with them was when I helped my brother in law reskin a cargo door from a business jet.

You forgot to mention how light the drill is when you have to drill hundreds of holes. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 06, 2014, 10:42:16 PM
I think I mentioned how light air drills are, Mike. Speaking of air drills, I now have 286 #30 holes drilled un the aluminum panel and most are match-drilled in the steel chassis tubes. Some still need to be drilled into the chassis but my wrist has had enough for today. I used my pneumatic Cleco runner to install & remove the cylindrical Clecos. I sure makes that job easier. Thanks, Ingersol- Rand!

The best tool for installing blind rivets that I've found is a PT-100 made by FSI. It operates on shop air and generates 4500 lbs pull with its internal hydraulic pump. It is small and light and costs a fortune but used ones can often be found on eBay for prices that vary all over the place, sometimes as low as $50. The thing you have to watch is whether it includes the size tips that you need. Mine started to malfunction (it was low on hydraulic fluid) so I mailed it back to FSI and they rebuilt it for $80. I think that was a very reasonable cost to make it work like new. FSI also makes D-100, a manual tool that does the job and it can pull Nutserts with the right adapter.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 07, 2014, 12:00:42 AM
Tools are my passion Neil and over the years I've built a fair size collection of what I call necessary stuff.

If I worked with metal more than I do I'd really be in trouble. I try stay away from catalogs.

The brother in law has left the aviation industry and he might be selling his sheet metal tools. :evil:

I have a few IR tools here. Compressor, nut driver and nibbler. All high quality. The youngster borrowed the nibbler to cut holes in his car to fit bigger speakers.
I warned him about covering the carpeting but he never listened. :-D

I will check out that PT-100.

Guys over here modify hand riveters to do Nutserts. I use a slightly more complex system but it works for me.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on June 07, 2014, 12:06:49 AM
I had to put underscores to get that word to go through. The "spell check" kept substituting the phrase "penile device"   :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Hell I just thought you were referring to Stainless :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 07, 2014, 09:55:55 AM
Neil, I think you should put a pluggable drain or 2 in your bottom stress panel if it won't compromise the strength you are looking for.  That will allow you to flood the area with water to wash the salt dust out.  it sounds like you will have a good seal. Just remember to use lots of water, multiple times, no pressure.
Just a thought
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 07, 2014, 12:19:41 PM
Stainless, I will definitely put drain holes in the bottom panel. Otherwise the saltwater will just pool up there until it evaporates. There are a few places in the fiberglass body that will need drain holes, too- for the same reason.

I'll be listening to the live broadcast from Wilmington while I'm working in the shop today. Thanks to everybody who made this broadcast possible.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 07, 2014, 05:42:37 PM
I've tried this  five times-- changed text, changed picture file name, changed both at the same time and I still get "you've already posted..." One more try for today.

So far I have drilled three hundred and ninety three holes; starting to think I might not countersink them after all. We'll see

I'm beginning to think the program just looks at the attachment file size rather than its name. Arrrggghhh.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 07, 2014, 05:49:59 PM
maybe..............
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 07, 2014, 05:52:03 PM
Aha! After trying to post the picture three more times with different names, I re-sized it so the file size is different than previous attempts... and it went through.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on June 07, 2014, 07:12:01 PM
One heck of a chess board Neil.   :-P
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 07, 2014, 09:32:13 PM
I have drilled about half of the #30 holes out to #20 for the 5/32" rivets that will be installed after the chassis is blasted, primed, and painted. Rivets only meet their specs when placed in holes that are accurate so I used a new 135 degree split-point drill. This gives a clean hole with very few edge burrs. To make sure the hole was perpendicular to the aluminum sheet, I used a microstop (normally used for countersinking a hole) with a 1/4-28 threaded #20 drill. This screws into the end of the microstop and its limited in & out motion allows only a calibrated depth for a countersink. In this case, I only wanted to use it to keep the hole perpendicular, which it does quite well.

I'll attach a couple of pictures that show what a microstop is as well as a threaded drill-- both not too common unless you're building an airplane.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 07, 2014, 11:35:08 PM
I know a guy in Everett that has connections.......... :-D

They build a few planes up there.

Neil, that's a labor of love.

This is going to be one beautifully built car when its done. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

If I ever get to visit you, I want the "Tool Tour".
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2014, 12:36:00 AM
You're welcome any time, Mike. Ditto for any other LSR guys.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 14, 2014, 10:18:32 PM
I flipped the chassis over (right side up) and lowered it down on wood blocks that approximate its ride height. All the Clecos are still in place, holding the bottom panel on, so I weaseled my way into the driving position and had Joline mark the center of my spine and measure the height of the tops of my shoulders. My original shoulder harness attachment points are not in the right place so I had to cut and miter two pieces of tubing (1 3/4" dia x 0.120 wall mild steel, the same as the roll cage) to add to the cage to provide attachments that meet the SCTA and HANS requirements. I've already welded on one tab, the second one will be added after the tubes are welded into the cage.

A & A Manufacturing makes a huge selection of tabs and brackets. I am using ones that are U-shaped so the belt end is in double shear as recommended.

I cut 4 pieces of 7075-T651 aluminum angle (1 1/4" x 1 1/4" x 0.095") to mount my battery box. It is a sealed polyethylene box from Speedway Motors and I'm looking at using a size 78DT battery in this box. I'd like to use a heavy nylon strap across the top to keep the box in place but I haven't found a suitable one yet; the aluminum angle will be riveted to the bottom panel and those will keep the box from sliding around in any direction.

Time to go feed the dog.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on June 14, 2014, 10:50:45 PM
Neil,
 You might want to check on the interpretation of 3.K regarding battery hold downs.

My understanding is they are to be made of metal.

  Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 15, 2014, 01:08:34 AM
Don;

You may be right. It says the battery must be secured with a metal framework and fasteners. To keep from causing a possible problem, I'll go with a metal hold-down... possibly one or two stainless steel straps with a tensioning latch.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 15, 2014, 03:28:41 PM
More welding on the chassis. I've now determined the places to attach brackets for the fire extinguisher and 'chute pull handles.

Here the chassis is sitting on two metal saw horses while being welded. This way I don't have to bend over so far but it entails crawling into the chassis.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 15, 2014, 11:54:31 PM
Cool photo Neil. :cheers:

Getting comfy to weld is 75% of the job.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 16, 2014, 08:31:25 PM
Thanks to Don, who pointed out that my plan for securing my battery box didn't meet the rule book requirements-- so, plan B.

I cut a length of 16 gauge 1 1/2" x 3/4" mild steel tubing and welded a thick cap on one end. This will lay across the top of the battery box. That end cap has a 3/8" hole that matches a similar hole in the side hold-down. This piece is 0.050 6Al4V titanium with a doubler plate of 0.095" 7075-T6 riveted to the top edge. The rivets are CherryLock CR2653-4-4 which are A286 alloy. I fooled around with the rivet puller nose to see how much it changed the stem break depth so they look a little different but the stem is staked in place in all of them. The bottom edge is drilled for 3ea 1/4-28 bolts which will thread into Nutserts which I'll install into a chassis tube later.

The 3/8" holes are for stainless quick-release (pip) pins that will allow the battery box to be removed without much effort.

The zinc chromate primer is still drying on the angle that will secure the battery box laterally but I did get the holes match drilled in the bottom panel today. The Paint on the battery hold-down tube isn't dry yet either so no pictures of those pieces today.

BTW, the faint lines on the Ti sheet is a pen mark, NOT a scribed line. Never scribe layout lines on sheet metal that is going to be used in a race car or aircraft application. As Carroll Smith said, "It indicates where it will break."

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 17, 2014, 12:35:50 AM
Neil, that is one cool battery box lid. :cheers:

Everything about it screams "pro".

I love the way you work.

I have to use pip pins on a few of my parts and finding some locally is going to be tough. I have a few but no matching sets.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 17, 2014, 12:15:18 PM
Thanks, Mike. Actually, it's the side support for a bar that goes across the top of the battery box. If the paint is dry enough today I'll take a picture. That will better explain what my approach is. What size pins are you looking for?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on June 17, 2014, 02:07:36 PM
Neil....You`re gas welding the entire chassis??   You are a patient man :cheers:JB
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 17, 2014, 04:08:08 PM
Yes, oxy-acetylene, JB This project was started ages ago; if I were to do it now I'd use MIG. The cost of gas has really gone up the past few years. Oxy- propane would be much cheaper but I've never tried it.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 17, 2014, 04:20:55 PM
The primer & paint was dry this morning so I took a picture of how it goes together; I think the picture pretty well explains what I had a hard time describing.

I'd like some advice about actuating my battery cut-off switch. Unless it was changed in the 2014 rule book (mine isn't here yet), it is legal to mount the switch control on the front or rear of the body. Does anyone have a preference? And is a push to OFF or a pull to OFF the best way to go? I modified my switch so it can be actuated by a push-pull control.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RidgeRunner on June 17, 2014, 07:59:31 PM
     Neil,

     From the 2014 SCTA rule book.   Page 37, 3.K Batteries: 

     All batteries shall be properly secured with metal framework and faseners.  Plastic tie-downs are not allowed. Both wet cell and dry cell batteries may be mounted in the drivers compartment; however, wet cell batteries must be sealed in a spill-proof box.

     All vehicles shall be equipped with a main battery disconnect switch.  The disconnect switch or a positive mechanical control [cable or rod] for the switch shall be located on the front or rear of the vehicle, operable externally and clearly marked.

                       Ed

     
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 17, 2014, 08:10:00 PM
Thanks, Ed. That looks similar the 2013 rules. I think I'm in compliance-- the hold-down is all metal and the battery box is sealed.

I just mounted my battery cut-off switch this afternoon and I'm hoping to get recommendations regarding a push or pull shut off and whether it is better to mount the shut off at the front or rear of the car.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 18, 2014, 12:57:30 AM
That looks great Neil.

Very neat solution. :cheers:

I'm not sure what size pip pins I need yet but they are for holding my rear wheel towing system in place.
I'll email you for advice later. Thanks.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on June 18, 2014, 09:13:18 AM
The safety techs are trained to go to either end end the vehicle  to find the shut off so it's your preference. Push or pull is also your preference.
I like pull off in rear of car as it keeps things tighter to the body in the RUN mode and the rear of the car is all dirty air anyway so no measurable drag penalty.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 18, 2014, 12:22:59 PM
I hadn't thought of the aerodynamic advantage of putting the switch on the rear-- thanks!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 18, 2014, 01:08:01 PM
Neal:

I put my cut-off on the rear with PUSH for OFF. Seems pushing something to the off position is a more natural reaction than pulling. Remember the safety folks will be moving quickly with their adrenalin pumping. I have a florescent arrow on top of the rear spoiler point to the cut off and one on the underside pointing toward the switch in case the vehicle lands on its lid. Lastly, I had a spare Morse throttle cable that was just long enough to reach from the trans tunnel behind my shifter to the trunk. I made a master cut of lever in my car to cut the power from inside the car. All power inside the car is low amp power to switches. The higher power accessories are run from relay's outside the driver's compartment. Now the secondary benefit I have found to the cable system is every time I sit in the car and forget to turn on my master switch I can reach over and push the lever to the on position.

My 2 cents.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 18, 2014, 01:12:28 PM
I forgot to add the second photo of the side view of the cut-off switch handle in orange. The other handle is the parachute release.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 18, 2014, 02:31:22 PM
That looks like a nice setup-- thanks.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on June 19, 2014, 05:39:20 PM
We prefer pulling things when in the panic mode.  The fire bottles, the fuel shut-off, the parachute, the main switch.  We think it's easier to grab and pull as best you can.  We also believe the main switch in the back is the way to go with front-engined cars -- in case there's a conflagration going in front.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 19, 2014, 07:26:48 PM
Stan;

The case of an engine fire makes putting the switch up front in my car more attractive-- thanks for that info!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 24, 2014, 06:39:00 PM
Today I drilled the rivet holes for one of my 10lb fire bottle mounting brackets. Two 7075-T6 aluminum strips will be riveted to the bottom panel and these hold down two t-bolt clamps that retain the cylinder. The rivets are 1/8" A286 CherryLock so the bottle is very well secured. Clecos hold it in place temporarily.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Richard 2 on June 24, 2014, 07:13:26 PM
You Might what to look at the new rule on fire bottle clamps. I took my t-bolt straps out and installed billet holders.
   Figured they would call the t-bolt clamps hose clamps.
Richard 2
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on June 24, 2014, 07:22:59 PM
Richard might be right, but if they kick titanium straps, I'd get a second opinion.

I just used 4" muffler clamps with rubber tubing, but they're clearly not as beautiful as these.

Roy Creel would be your contact - page 182 of the 2014 rule book.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on June 24, 2014, 07:58:59 PM
You Might what to look at the new rule on fire bottle clamps. I took my t-bolt straps out and installed billet holders.
   Figured they would call the t-bolt clamps hose clamps.
Richard 2
What new rule on fire bottle clamps?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RichFox on June 24, 2014, 08:34:58 PM
Some years ago they went way from hose clamps with all the screw slots in them. So a lot of people went to the T bolt muffler clamps. As far as I know that is still OK.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 24, 2014, 09:23:55 PM
These T-bolt clamps aren't built for mufflers; they are industrial clamps-- heavy duty 1" wide stainless. Thanks for the concern. I think Rich is right-- that rule is to prevent the screw-type clamps like he described.

I found a local plating shop that will do small odd lots. There are a number of small items that I'd like to get zinc plated instead of painted. I'll take them to him in a few days.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on June 24, 2014, 10:07:31 PM


I found a local plating shop that will do small odd lots. There are a number of small items that I'd like to get zinc plated instead of painted. I'll take them to him in a few days.



Neil - you've got to stop upping the game - you're making us all look really bad . . .  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 24, 2014, 10:50:00 PM
That's a neat solution Neil.

You've just given me an idea. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 24, 2014, 10:58:10 PM


I found a local plating shop that will do small odd lots. There are a number of small items that I'd like to get zinc plated instead of painted. I'll take them to him in a few days.



Neil - you've got to stop upping the game - you're making us all look really bad . . .  :cheers:

Look bad? Good grief-- you've all run your cars many, many times while mine is still being built. I'm the one looking bad!  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 24, 2014, 11:17:06 PM
Neil, you're just looking good slowly. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 27, 2014, 09:20:20 PM
Today I made tabs for the fire bottle pull cables and welded them into place on a few chassis tubes. Two pulls left of the steering wheel (a 5lb and a 10lb bottle for the cockpit) and one pull to the right of the steering wheel (a 10lb bottle for the engine bay). There is also a 10lb automatic bottle for the engine bay.

Next is deciding where to put the 'chute pull and fuel shutoff pull. Right now I'm leaning toward putting the 'chute pull close to the base of my shifter (it's only about 7" long); I should be able to reach it quickly there.

I mounted my battery cut-off switch. I will put the pull cable handle on the rear. Since this is a mid-engine car, even with a moderate (if there is any fire that's "moderate") engine fire it should still be easily accessible.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 27, 2014, 09:56:35 PM
Neil, do you still have to strip it all down for painting after?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 27, 2014, 10:11:31 PM
Today I made tabs for the fire bottle pull cables and welded them into place on a few chassis tubes. Two pulls left of the steering wheel (a 5lb and a 10lb bottle for the cockpit) and one pull to the right of the steering wheel (a 10lb bottle for the engine bay). There is also a 10lb automatic bottle for the engine bay.

Next is deciding where to put the 'chute pull and fuel shutoff pull. Right now I'm leaning toward putting the 'chute pull close to the base of my shifter (it's only about 7" long); I should be able to reach it quickly there.

I mounted my battery cut-off switch. I will put the pull cable handle on the rear. Since this is a mid-engine car, even with a moderate (if there is any fire that's "moderate") engine fire it should still be easily accessible.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil:

Sounds good, I have an auto system in the trunk where the fuel cell and batteries live. I figure a fire out back may go un-noticed until it is raging. The Auto system should snuff it out quickly. If for nothing else it gives me peace of mind. In a mid-engine car the auto system is a real good idea since you might not know until it is really cooking back there.

My car... so far goes straight so about the last 1/4 mile I reach down and have my hand on the chute lever. The level is where may handle naturally lands when I drop it from the wheel. Seems to me a more fluid motion than having it mounted where I have to reach or feel for it. My electric cut off I have to reach for slightly and it is a forward throw where the chute is a rear throw.

I have heard some of the streamliner guys have fore sensors and warning lights which sounds like a good project for the future.

Enjoying your build,

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on June 27, 2014, 10:35:24 PM
Neil,
     Keep in mind the restricted reach area arm restraints will bring to the equation. On our modified roadster controls were on both sides, ignition, shift and brake on the left, chutes, fuel shut off and fire bottles on the right. I did not like this arrangement when I was driving so when I built the street roadster I did it differently. Ignition on the steering wheel operable with the left hand while steering, everything else is operated by the right hand. Starter button on top of the brake handle, Chute, fire bottles and fuel shutoff in a cluster above the brake handle, shifter is by the right hip. With a left side driver position this allows all the monkey motion to be performed with the hand that has the longest restraint and the left hand remains on the wheel at all times.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 27, 2014, 10:58:43 PM
Mike;

Yes but it is already stripped down pretty far. I'll just need to remove a few things before hauling it into town for sandblasting. Then I'll shoot zinc chromate 2-part epoxy primer and top coat it with aliphatic isocyanate polyurethane.  Then the fun begins-- putting on the riveted panels, firewall panels, and all the other stuff.

BR, that sounds like where I plan to put my chute release. It's good to hear that it works well. In addition to the battery cut-off switch actuated from the rear of the car, I have a "master electrical shutdown" that is actuated in the cockpit by flipping down a spring- loaded cover on a toggle switch. This turns off a high-current relay in series with the battery cut-off switch. You can see it in this old photo.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 27, 2014, 11:13:38 PM
2nd try "You've already posted this".....BS. Something needs to be done to fix this!

JD;

My cockpit is pretty tight so all the important controls should be within reach. My brake is in the usual 3- pedal position-- foot operated. I appreciate your feedback as well as all those who have commented.

BR;

I have a fire sensor made by Kidde Aerospace that I plan to install in the firewall. It will monitor the engine bay and alert if it detects a flame. I won't have time to have it working until next year, though. The indication is by a bright indicator showing "FIRE".

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 30, 2014, 09:38:56 PM
My friend Jeff Gamble told me about a place here in Tucson who he has had do some plating on a few of his old Porsche parts. He said that they could do Zinc plating and didn't mind doing small stuff for car guys. I had stopped at Arizona Metal Transfer last week and talked to him about doing a few of my parts in Zinc with a gold Iridite passivation. I got my parts back this morning and they look good.

A few things couldn't be painted because they were a close fit and the thickness of primer & paint would have too much buildup to fit back together. The other stuff was just for appearance. I know the salt will wreak havoc with the plating but it will look good for a while; after that I can paint most of it.

The one part in a photo is an upper mounting bracket for my rear coil-over. The other photo shows both those brackets, a shifter, an intermediate shaft in my steering column, and two mounts for the rear fiberglass body section.

All this little stuff eats up time.  :-(

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 01, 2014, 12:05:20 AM
That looks great Neil.

What gearbox does the shift lever go to?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 01, 2014, 12:51:24 AM
Mike;

The gearshift lever goes to a complicated rod shifter connected to a Porsche G50 transaxle turned upside down. ..so I have 5 speeds forward instead of in reverse.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on July 01, 2014, 03:07:26 PM
I like the 5 speeds in reverse. The rev limiter wouldn't be so hard to deal with that way.

Rentals rev limiters just limit reverse speed testing.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 01, 2014, 04:08:43 PM
I like the 5 speeds in reverse. The rev limiter wouldn't be so hard to deal with that way.

Rentals rev limiters just limit reverse speed testing.

FREUD

I think that is an open record-- go for it Freud!  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on July 01, 2014, 06:02:46 PM
THANKS Neil.

I'll tell Mom that you said I should go for it.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 05, 2014, 01:10:57 AM
This is why I asked Neil, I did these for my Hurst shifter a while back and was thinking one might work for you?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 05, 2014, 02:20:43 AM
A paint system like you are thinking of using is very similar to the one used on my favorite dirt bike frame and swing arm a few years ago.  It works very well.  One good thing is the corrosion seems to be limited to areas where the paint is missing from the surface.  The rust does not seem to get under the coating near the break like what happens with other paint systems.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 05, 2014, 12:26:31 PM
This is why I asked Neil, I did these for my Hurst shifter a while back and was thinking one might work for you?.

That is quite a shifter there, Mike. If I had a choice I would plate steel parts with electroless nickel but the passivated zinc will have to do.


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 05, 2014, 07:51:39 PM
Is that what we call Cadmium plating over here?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 05, 2014, 08:12:42 PM
Mike;

No, cadmium plating is distinctly different from electroless nickel or zinc plating. There are so many restrictive regulations in place now that it is hard to find anyone doing cadmium. It's mostly military stuff and not really practical for guys like us.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on July 05, 2014, 08:20:42 PM
Mike;

No, cadmium plating is distinctly different from electroless nickel or zinc plating. There are so many restrictive regulations in place now that it is hard to find anyone doing cadmium. It's mostly military stuff and not really practical for guys like us.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
It's a shame too because cad plating has the best salt corrosion resistance. All the steel parts on airplanes we built for the Navy were cad plated, baked, zinc chromate primed and painted with a catalyzed paint.
Jim, a lazy L retiree
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 05, 2014, 09:16:26 PM
Gee, I'll be taking a bunch of stuff to the plater for cadmium at the end of the month.
http://www.teamplating.co.za/

Gary is going to do all the parts for the liner.


I learned something new "again". :cheers:


Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 16, 2014, 10:34:09 PM
I loaded up the  bare chassis on a trailer this morning and dropped it off at Prois Sandblasting in Tucson. This will prep it for priming and painting before all the aluminum panels go on and everything gets reassembled. They may get it finished on Friday but it will probably be Monday. I'm hoping our monsoon rains hold off until the primer goes on. I'll be prepping & priming some aluminum panels with zinc chromate epoxy in the next few days if the weather holds out. Doing this in one's driveway isn't as nice as a proper paint booth but ya gotta go with what ya got.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 16, 2014, 11:51:44 PM
Neil, when I lived on a farm my neighbor Henry had a collection of Thunderbirds. His house was right on the road and he would spray paint cars in the driveway.
Not just any old paint mind you. Pearls and flake. His wife would stand on the dirt road to stop anyone getting near the property. Not difficult for her, she was a big girl. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on July 16, 2014, 11:57:48 PM
Doing this in one's driveway isn't as nice as a proper paint booth but ya gotta go with what ya got.

Look at it this way Neil, your outdoor lighting can't be matched by a paint booth.  And what's a little sand in the paint?  Pfffttt :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2014, 09:41:17 PM
The rain held off today so I was able to prime some of my aluminum chassis panels. I scuffed the surface with a fine 3M bristle brush in an angle grinder and wiped it down with denatured alcohol. The primer is a PTI zinc chromate two-part epoxy. I sprayed it with an el cheapo ($9.99 on sale at Harbor Freight) paint gun.

I bought a "1 gallon kit" from Aircraft Spruce but it turned out to be 1 gallon of primer and 1 gallon of hardener. I won't complain about that! The primer needs to be mixed 1:1 (convenient!) and then left standing for 10 to 20 minutes before spraying. It dries to the touch in about 30 minutes so the panels could be turned over to be primed on the back side without a long wait.

I should have my chassis back from the sandblaster on Monday and I'll prime it before topcoating it with the trick aerospace polyurethane.... if the monsoons cooperate.   :|

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 18, 2014, 10:10:45 PM
Neil -

I know you're looking to have this prepped for a courtesy inspection during Speedweek - Will it be just the chassis, or will you have time to put the panels back into place?

Either way, I'm excited to see it.

 :cheers:

Chris
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2014, 10:24:02 PM
Chris;

The panels that I just primed will be riveted in place and I'll re-assemble as much as I have time to complete by the time it's necessary to get it on the trailer. I'll probably rent a flatbed car hauler to take it up to Bonneville so it will be easier for the inspectors to see the underside, etc. Next year I'll use my enclosed Haulmark trailer.

I'm looking forward to seeing your cool mint green Midget, too!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 18, 2014, 11:28:20 PM
Whenever I see zinc chromate I think "airplanes". Never had the opportunity to use it but hopefully one day soon.
The parts look good Neil.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 19, 2014, 12:42:07 AM
Mike;

Aluminum = zinc chromate. Airplanes or race cars.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2014, 08:44:58 PM
While waiting for my chassis to be finished at the sandblaster's shop, I've riveted a few things onto the bottom panels. To stiffen the bottom rear panel, I riveted on a titanium "hat section" using 1/8" (#4) CherryMax blind rivets. These are aluminum body/steel stem blind rivets that break the stem flush with their dome head and crimp a retaining ring around the stem to retain it under severe vibration. Since the main shear strength of a blind rivet is in its stem, having a stem fall out weakens it considerably-- another reason not to use hardware store pop rivets.

I also riveted the aluminum angle battery retaining brackets on to the bottom stressed panel. I used 1/8" Huck Unimatic blind rivets. These are A286 body & stem- a really strong stainless alloy. Unimatics also have a locked stem but they do require a special pulling head that stakes the lock ring into the stem before it breaks flush with the head. It is no fun to pull these by hand!

Here are a couple of pictures of the pieces I did today. Tomorrow I'll rivet the 10 lb fire bottle retainer on unless I hear from the sandblaster.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on July 20, 2014, 11:44:46 PM
Neil, You do realy nice work. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 21, 2014, 01:25:47 AM
That's all top quality Neil. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 21, 2014, 03:42:33 PM
I riveted the 10 lb fire bottle mount onto the bottom stressed panel. I again used NAS1919 blind rivets with A286 bodies & stems. The retaining bands are 3/4" wide stainless with T-bolt clamps. There will be a rubber cushion under the bands when they are tightened.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 22, 2014, 01:57:31 AM
I want to work with/for Neil one day!!!!

You inspire me. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SteveM on July 23, 2014, 10:14:11 AM
I want to learn all the riveting techniques and technology.

When my own project is "done" - HA - I'll spend a lot more time reading the details of this thread and taking notes.

When someone from within any particular industry takes on a project, they often bring the "flavor" of their industry along.

All this rivet stuff, various grades of lightweight metals, and fabrication techniques are just plain fascinating.

I can't wait to see that Manta in person - great work on this job, Manta22.

So much to learn...

Steve.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 23, 2014, 11:45:48 AM
You put it perfectly Steve.
Neil is the Man. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Kiwi Paul on July 23, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
Neil...Don`t forget that most of the Inspection crew are not as knowlegeable as you are on composite/rivet strengths. I am used to welded brackets and metal mounts. Make sure any pieces on the car that are a bit outside the common experience have strength comparisons to what is usual.....Some copied info inside your Log Book is your friend.....
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on July 23, 2014, 03:55:51 PM
Very good point!  Inundate them with data.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 23, 2014, 06:07:59 PM
Thanks for that tip. I'll have data sheets & specs on those types of things in my log book.

It's amazing how strong the A286 and Monel blind rivets are-- their shear strength exceeds the steel hole that they are inserted in. FWIW, the shear strength of the hole is called "bearing strength".

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 23, 2014, 06:14:17 PM
I retrieved my chassis from the sandblaster Monday and trailered it home. They did a better job on it than I had expected. I'm sure it wasn't easy getting into all the tube joints and angles. I set it up on a pair of metal sawhorses outside the shop in preparation for priming it with a two- part zinc chromate made by PTI. Fortunately the rain has held off for a few days so I can finish the painting. It's just beastly hot outside!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 23, 2014, 06:20:15 PM
I have the chassis primed and now I'm finishing spraying on the topcoat, a two- part polyurethane that I lucked into at a local surplus dealer. It's made by Deft and made for high- performance Navy aircraft. The color isn't what I would have chosen but it is what it is-- a lusterless "school bus yellow-orange". As you can see in the pictures, some zinc chromate is still showing; I'm taking a break now and will finish the topcoat later today.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 23, 2014, 10:24:44 PM
After the last posting, I was really beat from the heat & humidity; it's our monsoon season here in the upper Sonoran Desert. After the heat of June & July the rising hot air convection brings up humid air from the South and we get high humidity and rain. Napped for an hour or so, drank four bottles of water and a diet Pepsi and resumed painting this afternoon. As I was almost finished, the sky turned dark with thunderstorms but, fortunately, they went around us. Rainstorms in the desert are like at Bonneville-- very localized.

As I'm typing this, it has started to rain. All the stuff is all put away except the engine hoist and the chassis. I think the polyurethane has cured enough that it won't get hurt by the rain.  :-P  I'll let it cure outside tomorrow to make sure the topcoat is fully hard before taking it into the shop and beginning to rivet panels, bolt on components, etc.

Joline is a little concerned about the overspray on the concrete but it should wash/wear off.  :roll:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 23, 2014, 11:32:09 PM
Neil, there is a certain well known Australian racing car with a yellow frame.  It is a proven performance enhancing color.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 24, 2014, 01:02:28 AM
I think it's a great color.

I want my car painted that yellow (Lemon Chrome??).

You'll have luck with the yellow. :cheers:

I also got into trouble with over spray on the driveway.
SHE managed to get one of those big canvas sheets from a mobile billboard and it has served as a protector for years.
They give them away here. Maybe you could find one Neil.
The chassis looks great and you won't forget the conditions you worked in to get it done.
Painting a bunch of pipes is tough. You lose most of the paint. Nice job man. :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: lsrjunkie on July 24, 2014, 01:08:01 PM
Excellent Neil! I really like the yellow.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 24, 2014, 06:04:15 PM
Neil, there is a certain well known Australian racing car with a yellow frame.  It is a proven performance enhancing color.

McLaren? If so, that is NZ. Thanks, WW.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 24, 2014, 06:41:38 PM
Neil, there is a certain well known Australian racing car with a yellow frame.  It is a proven performance enhancing color.

Are you referring to the car with the matching wiring harness?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on July 24, 2014, 09:05:37 PM
Neil, there is a certain well known Australian racing car with a yellow frame.  It is a proven performance enhancing color.

Are you referring to the car with the matching wiring harness?

Yes the crazy ones.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 25, 2014, 09:23:17 PM
I had to do some spot touch-up painting on the topcoat; missed spots were visible when I hoisted the chassis up on its side to start riveting on the stressed bottom panel. All I can say is my chassis is a "15 foot paint job".  :-P 

I did install one aluminum bottom panel this afternoon-- 85ea #4 Monel body/Inconel 600 stem rivets. These are bulbed CherryLock rivets that have excellent shear strength and they pull the panels up tight as the stem is pulled.

As an attempt to keep as much salt out of the rivet holes, I ran a bead of silicone down the chassis tubes where they contact the panel. I bought a few cans of a blue silicone RTV that comes in a pressurized can with a nozzle; press the nozzle sideways and the RTV comes out as a blue foam. I had never seen this stuff before but it turns out to be quite useful. The stuff is made by CRC.

The monsoon is back now. Fortunately my outside work is finished (I hope).

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 25, 2014, 10:39:10 PM
A piece of monel metal was given to me to machine when I was an apprentice.  I remember it still.  That metal was tough.  I'll bet those rivets are strong.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 26, 2014, 10:54:50 AM
WW;

You are among the few that have ever heard of the stuff.

Monel has been around since WW I but not many people are familiar with it. It isn't a steel alloy, rather it is a cupro-nickel alloy with high strength, toughness and elevated temperature tolerance. The stems are Incolloy 600, a high-temperature stainless steel alloy. I have some of it in sheet that will be my lower firewall.

These are Cherry CR2935P (NAS1738MW4-3) blind rivets and although they are only 1/8" diameter they are spec'ed as 895 lbs shear and 490 lbs tensile strength. The next one-- the main stressed panel-- will be riveted with lots of #5 (5/32") rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 26, 2014, 04:56:36 PM
With apologies to James Whistler-- "Arrangement in Zinc Chromate and Black".

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 27, 2014, 01:09:50 AM
Whistler wishes. :-D

You're another kind of artist.

I drool just looking at that canvas and it's a good thing you have air.
Popeye would buckle trying to do that job.

Very nice Neil. Thanks man.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 27, 2014, 11:19:45 AM
Mike;

Thanks. Pulling those rivets by hand would be unthinkable. I put in 95 with my pneumatic puller but it was just barely able to break their stems. On the double pattern holes I'm using oversize rivets and these need the 4,000 lb pull capability of my air/hydraulic gun. I should be able to finish the panel today.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 27, 2014, 09:10:13 PM
I finished installing all the rivets in the bottom stressed aluminum panels today-- about 400 rivets total. Now I've started installing other stuff like the rear body pivots and lock pin receivers. It's getting back together-- slowly.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 27, 2014, 11:00:38 PM
As always, fascinating.

Wish I knew more about the process - so I'll just start asking question.

When riveting with this many rivets, are there issues with material flex that you have to compensate for?

If so, how do you do that?

Thanks, Neil!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 27, 2014, 11:19:30 PM
Chris;

If you mean does the material compress as you drive it (actually, with blind rivets you pull the stems up into the body)- yes, a little, but the rivet pulls the two sheets together and expands as the stem is pulled. In addition, there is a bulge formed behind the last sheet that keeps the rivet body from falling out. Aerospace rivets also lock the stem into place so that vibration doesn't shake it out of the body.

Drilling a nice clean round hole of the proper size is important as well as using the proper "grip length"  for the thickness of the material. It takes too much pulling force to use a hand tool when you are using 5/32" Monel body & 15-7 PH stem rivets. I have to use my FSI "pneudraulic" gun for these types.

Using temporary fasteners such as Clecos is a must to keep all the holes aligned when they are drilled and again when they are riveted. Without Clecos, it's guaranteed that after a few holes, the panels walk off and the other holes don't line up.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 28, 2014, 12:15:26 AM
Got it - you also mentioned shear strength - I'm assuming side to side on the rivets.

You mentioned panels tend to walk without placement pins - Clecos in your case.  Do you need to pull the rivets up in the same sort of manner that you might torque down a cylinder head?  I could see a large panel with 400 rivets warping if you were to just start on one end and work your way across.

I could see when you're done, you'd wind up with a tensioned, stiff subassembly.

Thanks for the tutorial.

Chris
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 28, 2014, 12:40:04 AM
Your cylinder head bolt torque sequence is a perfect analogy, Chris.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 28, 2014, 12:58:34 AM
Neil, Clecos are underrated. I use them daily.
In my case they live in a container filled with Acetone.
Resin inside the mechanism renders them useless.

I had this funny situation years ago. This is the story on how I got my air riveter.
I used to run this young guy's racing career. His family had an engineering company.
The had this "air" riveter and couldn't get the rivets to go from the plastic container out back
to the front. :-D :-D :-D
They said it was mine if I could fix it.
I did. :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 28, 2014, 07:40:02 PM
"...couldn't get the rivets to go from the plastic container out back
to the front."

That's a hoot! I hope you didn't tell him how you "fixed" it.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 28, 2014, 07:53:44 PM
I re-assembled my gear shifter and bolted it in, put in the sealed red battery box, and started to make my lower firewall. I cut it out of Inconel 718 sheet and I've started to drill holes for attaching it to the chassis. I'll cut a matching piece of aluminized woven ceramic fiber (similar to the header wrap stuff) and sandwich it behind the Inconel for heat insulation. The Inconel doesn't need any additional protection-- the textile fiber will just help keep engine heat out of the cockpit.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 28, 2014, 11:26:39 PM
No Neil, I didn't. :-D :-D :-D

The chassis is looking very good.
You must be having a blast right now?.
To be finally fitting panels and parts is a great feeling, I'm sure.

I checked out that silicone RTV. That is a great product. How long does it take to set?.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 02, 2014, 09:17:27 PM
I've been re-assembling the car in the last few days. I may or may not have time to drop in the engine/tranny but the inspectors know what those look like anyway. Before I quit for today, I laid out the rectangular hole patterns in my upper firewall for the two shoulder harness brackets to fit through. I drilled holes in each corner by first drilling a 3/32" hole, then a two- step drill of undetermined size (it looked about right), and then enlarged them to 5/16" with a multi- step drill. 6AL4V titanium is tough, it needs a slow speed, heavy feed, and cutting oil. The Inconel 718 lower firewall was worse-- I swear it would work harden if you looked at it crossways.  :-(

This view shows the present state of assembly. the side pod on this side contains the fuel cell and 10lb Halon fire bottle. It is more secure than it looks; there is a thick aluminum clamp around the bottle just under the top panel and the clamp is bolted to the panel. The left side pod contains a dry sump oil tank and two fire bottles slung under that top panel by aluminum clamps bolted to brackets which are riveted to the underside of that panel.

The right side dark green Dzus panel mount two fuel filters. The shift linkage is in as well as the instrument panel & switch/breaker panel. I hope to finish & install  the upper firewall tomorrow.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on August 02, 2014, 10:49:12 PM
That is one of the tidiest constructions I've seen.
I know those joints on the gear selector shaft and they don't come better or cheap. :-D
You do great work Neil.
Awesome photo and you seem to be making great strides. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

My water jet sponsor cut me a whole lot of plates from steel (100) I want to use as body mounting tabs.
They needed 3/8" holes drilled though them.
Half were fine but the other 50 aren't.
I can't get a single one drilled.
Tried cutting fluid, slow speed but just ruined my drills. :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 03, 2014, 09:23:10 PM
Thanks, Mike. I wonder what kind of "steel" he used for those brackets? Mild steel (1010/1020) should not be a problem to drill.

I found a handful of those Thompson linear ball bushings just in time to build them into my shift linkage. They work great in this application.

Today I spent much more time than I had planned on getting my upper firewall installed. Previously I had all the holes in the attachment tabs matched to the holes in the firewall-- I forgot about the gussets that I added to the roll cage later after the firewall was taken out so that I could finish the welding on the chassis. Of course now there was interference and it wouldn't fit. In addition, I had to cut out two rectangular holes for the shoulder harness to fit through. What a PITA!!!  :-P  I finally got it to partially fit and that's where it will stay for now; I'm running out of time to get it to fit as it should. The inspectors can see it as it is-- unfinished but in place, sort of.

Dressing the cut edges of the firewall has convinced me that this is not titanium as it was alleged to be but rather some sort of really tough stainless steel alloy. The grinding sparks are not a shower of bright white like titanium, its more pale yellow with no spark division, like a 300 series stainless. Whatever it is, it's a b*tch to cut & grind.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on August 04, 2014, 09:37:34 PM
  Neil,
  Somebody just sent me this story and my first thought was of you and your project. I'm sure that you have seen it, but what craftsmanship on both projects. Hope to meet you on the Salt someday.
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
      http://bangshift.com/general-news/project-cars/amazing-automotive-metal-working-project-america-recreation-ill-fated-1939-porsche-racer-old-north-carolina-vfw-hall/
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on August 05, 2014, 06:41:59 PM
Thanks Neil, He hasn't replied on what he used but whatever it is I'm not good enough.

I also had a little experience grinding Ti when I did the exhaust swap on the bike and there's no mistaking the color of the sparks.
I don't know how Bo manages to machine the stuff. I had to cut a little bracket away and it was no joke.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 10, 2014, 03:17:07 PM
Well, I had planned to ask the tech inspectors to give my car a once-over to see if they found anything that I needed to re-do. I also wanted to ask about moving the rear edge of the rear wheel well back a few inches so that there was no interference with the race tires. As everyone knows by now, two torrential rain storms caused the meet to be cancelled on Saturday morning.

Oh well..................  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on August 10, 2014, 05:16:40 PM
Neil, at least we got to see your car.  You were chatting with a couple of other folks as we cruised past - in traffic and couldn't stop.  But we SAW it, and now I can vouch that you really do have a build going on. :-D

Sorry we didn't hook up to chat - and more sorry that nobody got to race.  Next time for sure! :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 10, 2014, 05:32:24 PM
Jon;

Sorry we didn't get together. I really wanted a coupler of those new t-shirts. Is it possible to get one mailed?

Yes, the car's real-- not Photoshop!  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on August 10, 2014, 05:43:55 PM
Yes, I've got a list going for the shirts to mail.  Before i try quoting a price to include shipping I want to see what the USPS will charge.  As for the list -- how many of what size do you want?

I'll append this note to the post:  We've run out of large shirts already and never did make and size SM, so once we get back to the shop we'll get and make sizes to order.  We have M, XL, 2XL in stock.  We've got a good batch of the heat transfer sheets so can make any size.  Let me know what you want.

Back to your car, Neil -- as we drove past I looked and saw this black vehicle with enough sharp angles and surfaces to qualify as a stealth technology car.  Instantly I knew that it was the Manta.  Looks great. :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 10, 2014, 05:53:04 PM
Thanks, Jon.

I'd like to get two size XL T-shirts but there's no hurry on the quote. Maybe we should call this event "The Epic LSR Meet That Never Was".

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 13, 2014, 02:53:30 PM
Like everyone else, we're back from rained-out Speed Week, disappointed but looking forward to next year. Towing a race car on an open trailer was interesting. At every gas stop it attracted a few curious people. Their main question was "What is it?" I found it surprisingly difficult to come up with a good answer.

After returning home and unloading, I thought it was a good time to take a couple of pictures, seeing that it was its first time out of the shop. The bodywork was just thrown on temporarily-- nothing fit properly-- now I'll remove it to put on the aluminum panels on the sides of the cockpit and adjust the body attachment points. There is still a lot of detail stuff to do-- wiring, plumbing, engine installation, etc.

I rolled the car into the shop through the sliding "barn door" but I needed to turn it 90 degrees to position it so I can work on it. There is nobody home right now except me since Joline is in Nashville visiting her sister, so I came up with the idea of using two small HF movers' dollies under the rear tires and one larger one under the stressed panel in the front. It wasn't easy but I could push the car around to the right position. Ball-bearing casters & wheels would have made it much easier but it worked.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: bubruins on August 13, 2014, 02:59:59 PM
Wow. That is an intimidating looking front end. I can't wait to see this car in person someday.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 13, 2014, 04:16:25 PM
Thanks; I think the black color emphasizes its sinister look. Here's what it looks like head- on.

I towed it up to Bonneville with hope of having the tech inspectors take a look and point out any problem they found. Two inspectors did take a quick look and suggested that I send pictures to the SCTA so they can answer a question about my rear tire clearance in the rear wheel well. I just e-mailed Jon Meyer about this.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: lsrjunkie on August 13, 2014, 05:31:46 PM
Very sinister Neil. I love it!  :cheers:

The look of the car combined with the beautiful noise it's going to make should come together very well.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on August 13, 2014, 06:45:07 PM
Neil, that Mutha is BAD.

LOVE IT

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 13, 2014, 07:27:45 PM
Freud;

Thanks. Let's hope I haven't created a "sheep in wolf's clothing"   :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on August 13, 2014, 07:41:12 PM
The front looks a little like a Triumph I've seen -- that can't be bad.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: lsrjunkie on August 13, 2014, 07:58:56 PM
Never thought about that Stan. And that little Triumph seems to run pretty good...
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on August 13, 2014, 09:15:47 PM
Neil:

Looks great. I know it is well built and I bet it will be fast.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on August 13, 2014, 11:48:07 PM
  Neil,
   When they ask, make it interesting. Tell them that you are headed to the set of the next "Fast and Furious" movie. You can make the story as cool as you want from there.
   Doug  :evil:  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on August 14, 2014, 12:07:03 AM
  Neil,
   When they ask, make it interesting. Tell them that you are headed to the set of the next "Fast and Furious" movie. You can make the story as cool as you want from there.
   Doug  :evil:  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Too pretentious - try this one . . .

"Heck, I don't know what it is.  I was just bidding for the trailer."  :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 14, 2014, 11:14:12 AM
Good ideas, guys. How about this one "I dunno-- I found it in a barn in ...."  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on August 14, 2014, 06:41:38 PM
Neil,
The McLaren coupe has always been a pretty "menacing" looking car and yours certainly has the look. Great build and great looking car can't wait to see it run.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on August 14, 2014, 11:20:48 PM
Hi Neil

Pretty slick looking, remember to stick in that ton of lead as at 1800 lbs that is pretty light for a salt runner

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on August 15, 2014, 01:56:29 AM
Maybe the aerodynamics are good enough not to need a ton of lead! :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ratpatrol66 on August 15, 2014, 02:37:37 AM
I don't remember were I was at when your car went by, but it turned a lot of heads! Seriously it looked BADA$$!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 15, 2014, 11:38:18 AM
It remains to be seen if I'll need to add ballast. As Mike said, it will depend quite a bit on the aerodynamics.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on August 15, 2014, 11:48:20 AM
I honestly believe you won't have aero problems.

Have you had a good look at that car???? :cheers:

Neil, nothing in the post yet but TIA (this is Africa). :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on August 15, 2014, 01:59:23 PM
Thanks; I think the black color emphasizes its sinister look. Here's what it looks like head- on.

I towed it up to Bonneville with hope of having the tech inspectors take a look and point out any problem they found. Two inspectors did take a quick look and suggested that I send pictures to the SCTA so they can answer a question about my rear tire clearance in the rear wheel well. I just e-mailed Jon Meyer about this.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Your racecar awaits, Lord Vader"
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 15, 2014, 04:19:02 PM
Now if I can find my light saber....  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 30, 2014, 07:47:48 PM
I've pulled the front body section off so I can begin finishing up a few things underneath. I made a template out of poster paper and now I am using that to make an aluminum panel that fits on the front bulkhead, under the steering rack, master cylinders, and reservoirs. Between a plasma cutter, nibbler, die grinder, drill press, and a file, it's easy (hah!).

I'm going to wait until I have most of the aluminum panels made before I break out the spray gun with epoxy zinc chromate primer.

I got a thumbs-down on my first idea of how to add some rear funder clearance to the wheel arch so it's off to Plan B.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 05, 2014, 09:51:24 PM
Here is where my radiator is mounted. The coolant flows from the mid- mounted engine through thinwall stainless tubes up to the nose. The radiator is bolted through small vibration mounts to the nose support structure; I'm trying to minimize the chance of fatigue cracking in the Howe aluminum radiator.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

 
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"You already submitted this post! You might have accidently double clicked, or tried to refresh."
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 05, 2014, 10:05:22 PM
Let's hope this works.

I've started fabricating the aluminum panels that will "enclose" the chassis. This is the one on the front bulkhead. Since it isn't a stressed panel to a large degree, I'm using 0.040" 6061-T6. The subsequent panels will be 7075-T6 for strength. To form the odd- shaped holes, I drilled a 1/8" hole and enlarged it to 1/2" with a step drill. Using that hole, I inserted a pneumatic nibbler and cut out the hole to size. Final smoothing was done with a Dremel tool and a 1/4" rotary file.

A 12" long #30 drill made it possible to drill the necessary holes in places where I would otherwise have needed to remove more parts to gain access.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 06, 2014, 12:09:11 AM
As always, you do such neat work.

 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 06, 2014, 01:41:06 AM
My bike has all sorts of different coatings on it.  The zinc chromate epoxy primer with a good topcoat is working the best.  It is a good choice.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 27, 2014, 02:06:03 PM
In addition to the front bulkhead, I've made two more aluminum panels- these are for the L & R side of the chassis. They were scuffed up with an orbital sander, cleaned with water & Dawn dishwashing detergent, then rinsed and dried before getting a coat of two- part epoxy zinc chromate primer. After they were tack- free I laid them out in the sun to fully cure. Two- part epoxy primer is a hard coating that offers good protection against corrosion.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 27, 2014, 02:23:23 PM
I added the required toe pullback to my accelerator pedal before priming it and the brake & clutch pedals with SEM Promax gray enamel primer. The pedals were cleaned with a phosphoric acid solution, then rinsed and dried first. The topcoat is Rust-Oleum Professional High Performance Enamel from a spray can. I like it-- it gives a nice hard, glossy finish.

After thoroughly drying the paint, I cut strips of 3M non- slip and applied it to the pedals to assure a good grip on my shoe soles.

I bought a piece of it at Home Depot (it is in the paint department- intended for stair steps) and scored it on the backside with a sharp utility knife. Bending it forward on the scored line breaks it cleanly. The backing paper is carefully peeled off and the stuff is stuck to the pedal. The adhesive seems to give a nice, aggressive bond.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 27, 2014, 10:36:03 PM
The pedals look great Neil.
The 3M product is on for life believe me. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 04, 2014, 09:31:48 PM
I finally got my brake & clutch master cylinders mounted on the front bulkhead. They are both AFCO aluminum "Torpedo" master cylinders; a nice compact design intended for a remote reservoir. They are hard to find for some reason. I needed to mount them about 1/2" behind the square tube of the bulkhead so I made a 1/8" steel sub-mount plate (red in the photo) for each one and bolted each m/c to the plates. The plates are then held in place with 302 stainless 1/4-28 bolts and "jet nuts". The bolts have nice twelve-point heads and they came in a package with a GE part number so I guess they were used on their jet engines somewhere.

The nylon fittings that go to the reservoirs are Parker Nylo-Seal; the outlets use #3 AN banjo fittings.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on October 04, 2014, 10:26:18 PM
Very nice Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on October 05, 2014, 11:53:19 AM
SO WHERE IS THE RESERVOIR GOING TO BE MOUNTED??
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2014, 01:00:14 PM
Glen;

I'm using a separate reservoir for each m/c. They are mounted on the front bulkhead above the steering rack and anti-roll bar. Here is a picture I took before the aluminum panel was installed.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on October 05, 2014, 04:15:00 PM
OK, I was just wondering as all of your work is first class. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2014, 04:55:03 PM
Thanks, I'll have a picture of the whole front bulkhead with everything mounted in place very soon.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 05, 2014, 11:38:21 PM
What are those rivet looking things holding the two plates together that support the reservoirs?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 06, 2014, 11:30:00 AM
What are those rivet looking things holding the two plates together that support the reservoirs?

WW;

You're right-- they are a type of rivet called a Huck "Blind Bolt" (MS90354). They are extremely strong, 3450 lbs shear strength each. Overkill, but I had some...  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 06, 2014, 08:58:35 PM
I got the pedals put in and connected to the master cylinders this afternoon. I still need to find a good torsion spring for the gas pedal; I want to have one return spring on the pedal and one at the engine.

You can clearly see the "Blue Goo" that squeezed out when I attached the panels. This is to seal the joints and prevent (as much as I can) water & salt from getting in.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on October 06, 2014, 09:05:45 PM
Do you plan on a toe strap (required) I'm sure you have it in mind.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 06, 2014, 09:11:40 PM
Do you plan on a toe strap (required) I'm sure you have it in mind.

That's what that funny- looking "Z" shaped thing is at the top of the gas pedal, Glen.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on October 06, 2014, 09:21:16 PM
I'm not sure they had in mind that you had to move your foot to actuate the strap.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on October 06, 2014, 09:35:31 PM
I think it has to be over the toe.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 06, 2014, 10:02:31 PM
I did it this way to prevent getting my toe trapped and not being able to get to the brake pedal. This way seems safer to me.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rick Byrnes on October 07, 2014, 09:06:11 AM
Neil
What exactly is the blue goo and will it prevent painting later?

I love your work.  Keep it up.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 07, 2014, 12:25:24 PM
Neil
What exactly is the blue goo and will it prevent painting later?

I love your work.  Keep it up.


Thanks, Rick. The stuff I call "Blue Goo" is an RTV silicone foam from CRC. (CRC #14057) It comes in a can with a long nozzle that you move sideways to allow the stuff to flow out. The can is pressurized so you don't squeeze it like the RTV in a tube. They claim that it's temp range is -80F to +450F; no claims about its being paintable so I assume that it is not.

I primed the aluminum panels with 2- part zinc chromate epoxy before I riveted them onto the chassis tubes. I don't plan to topcoat these interior panels. When I have time I'll peel off the worst globs-- just for looks.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on October 07, 2014, 03:10:55 PM
I did it this way to prevent getting my toe trapped and not being able to get to the brake pedal. This way seems safer to me.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Neil, you might want to think about that. The ability to back off the throttle is way more important than the speed you can get to the brakes.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 07, 2014, 04:41:12 PM
I did it this way to prevent getting my toe trapped and not being able to get to the brake pedal. This way seems safer to me.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Neil, you might want to think about that. The ability to back off the throttle is way more important than the speed you can get to the brakes.

Thanks for all of these inputs from everyone. I'll take a look to see if there is any way I can put a toe strap above the pedal in a way that looks reasonably "non- fouling" to my big feet.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on October 07, 2014, 09:38:56 PM
Neil, the throttle toe strap needs only have enough hook that you can pull it back if it is stuck forward.  It does not need to wrap around or be a loop, it can be over the top or on the side, but should be over part of your foot when it is on the throttle.
Getting to the brake fast is required for road racing, but not for LSR... the only time you use the brake will be a very low speeds, like in the pits, unloading or at the end of the run when you are tired of the car continuing to roll.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 07, 2014, 09:57:03 PM
Neil, the throttle toe strap needs only have enough hook that you can pull it back if it is stuck forward.  It does not need to wrap around or be a loop, it can be over the top or on the side, but should be over part of your foot when it is on the throttle.
Getting to the brake fast is required for road racing, but not for LSR... the only time you use the brake will be a very low speeds, like in the pits, unloading or at the end of the run when you are tired of the car continuing to roll.

... or at Wilmington?   :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on October 07, 2014, 10:03:59 PM
When you're lifting with the right foot you can brake with the left. It works.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on October 07, 2014, 10:13:23 PM
OK, YEA, forgot about the short shutdown venues, but you won't need that much of a loop, half the pedal width should not trap your foot.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 07, 2014, 10:59:43 PM
OK, thanks everyone for the help. I'll try to accommodate a toe loop. (kinda sounds like "ground loop" doesn't it?)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: John Burk on October 08, 2014, 11:01:41 AM
Neil
Aren't throttle pedals that pivot at the arch of your foot an alternative . No toe strap needed .
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on October 08, 2014, 11:38:57 AM
I'd guess you could petition for that -- but it's not covered in SCTA Rule 3J.  Sure would be easier (and safer) to just comply.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Saltfever on October 10, 2014, 04:12:35 PM
After John’s suggestion, which I thought very interesting, I was looking at page 36, para 3J. What is the problem with plastic lined cables?

Sorry Neil: If thread-jacking I’ll start a new thread.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 10, 2014, 05:14:43 PM
I suppose this is a worry about someone using a polyethylene liner which melts at a fairly low temperature and could seize the cable. Teflon liners should not be a problem but the rule book doesn't distinguish between "plastics". Attn: Benjamin Braddock  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Saltfever on October 10, 2014, 09:52:23 PM
I was thinking with the corrosive salt environment, a nicely sealed, slippery, teflon lined cable would be a good thing. Even marine grade cables are lined with some kind of polymer.  But Oh well . . .  Thanks.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 10, 2014, 10:44:36 PM
OK, thanks everyone for the help. I'll try to accommodate a toe loop. (kinda sounds like "ground loop" doesn't it?)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

So you're installing an audio system as well?

As to a toe strap - required yet usually useless on a cable actuated throttle - I simply riveted a nylon strap to the pedal.

Nobody said it has to be metal.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 10, 2014, 10:50:38 PM
Chris;

I was thinking of "ground loop" in the aviation sense but....  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 11, 2014, 04:52:19 PM
On the subject of Bowden cables and salt, specify stainless steel for the cable and liner.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on October 24, 2014, 05:54:22 PM
Hi Neil

Make your toe strap out of 3/16 or so and mount it on the right side , and open on the left to cover more that the width of your shoe to be on the safe side

Then you can just slide your foot to the left over to the brake petal

You want to make it out of material that will withstand a big yank , as if the throttle gets really bound up you might have to give it a BIG pull and you don't want that toe strap to bend just when you need it the most

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 24, 2014, 09:04:48 PM
ok don thanks I'll give that some thought
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on October 25, 2014, 03:08:03 AM
Neil after looking at your petals again the gas might be better if you moved it over to the right for more room, since you are not going to be ' heeling & toeing this beauty ' they don't need to be this close together

And maybe have the toe pads all at the same place so it is easer to slide your right foot over if needed, you sure don't want your right foot hitting the side of the brake petal just on top where it counts

Do you have a throttle stop on the petal as I don't see one, very important to help keep the throttle from binding - sticking - going over center etc even bending the fuel injection linkage

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 27, 2014, 01:13:23 PM
Don;

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, I do have a stop on the (hydraulic) clutch pedal as well as on the accelerator pedal. They are bolts threaded into nut plates mounted on the front bulkhead-- not real obvious in the photo.

The fore and aft position of the accelerator pedal in the photo is not where it will be when the linkage is hooked up and the return spring is in place.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 03, 2014, 12:16:35 PM
A trip back East to visit relatives kept work on the black Mirage from getting accomplished but I did get to do something that I've always wanted to do-- visit the Shiloh battlefield where my great- grandfather was wounded (and later wounded again at Missionary Ridge). The beauty of that place (Shiloh means "a place of peace"-- from the Bible)  belies the human toll taken there on the 6th & 7th of April, 1862.

I've now done the plumbing for my front brakes and hooked up the remote reservoirs to the master cylinders. My first attempt at bending a hard line to the RF brake was simply junk. I thought about it and came up with a procedure to get the bends in the right place (and in the right direction!); the next attempts came out OK. The brake hard line is 3/16" steel tubing (the hydraulic clutch tubing is 1/4" steel), flared with a standard AN fitting 37 degrees. Using a decent flaring tool is important; mine is an Imperial- Eastman 437-FA. This is one place that a Harbor Freight tool is not a good choice.

My first tubing bender was a multi- size bender that did work OK but the problem was that it used the same large radius for bending every size tubing. A cheap Titan 51503 bender makes 1/8", 3/16", & 1/4" tubing with a smaller 7/8" radius bend. It costs about $20 on-line.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 03, 2014, 07:54:58 PM
One way to bend brake line when tools will not fit or are not available is to heat the tube and fill the area of the bend with solder, bend the tube as best as you can, then heat it until the solder flows out and the empty tube remains.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 05, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
As usual the work is impeccable Neil.

That's a neat job. :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 09, 2014, 07:13:49 PM
I finally finished assembling my left front suspension. I disassembled everything and primed & painted the lower lateral control arm, fitted the ball joint rubber boots, applied Never-Seize to all the threaded joints and ball joint tapers, and then reassembled the whole thing. At the desired ride height I adjusted it to 7 degrees caster and 1 degree negative camber as a starting point. I may tweak it somewhat after driving it on- track. Performance Friction Carbon Metallic brake pads are also now installed.

The only thing to do now is to install 3 cotter pins; I don't have any in my stash- I usually use prevailing torque locknuts-- so I'll have to buy a handful when I'm in town. Now on to the right front suspension.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 09, 2014, 07:28:24 PM
Neil, that's show winning quality.
It looks great. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 09, 2014, 07:44:57 PM
Thanks, Mike-- no carbon fiber though.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on November 09, 2014, 07:53:58 PM
Cotter pins?  Hey, those are for sissies that don't stock the right stuff in the shop.  I prefer wire coat hangers - especially the heat-tempered ends left over from using 'em for stick welding. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 09, 2014, 09:29:11 PM
Cotter pins?  Hey, those are for sissies that don't stock the right stuff in the shop.  I prefer wire coat hangers - especially the heat-tempered ends left over from using 'em for stick welding. :cheers:

Slim, remind me to never ride your bike . . .
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 10, 2014, 12:23:45 AM
Are you leaving the cast and wrought iron finishes naked and figure they are adequately corrosion resistant without coating?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 10, 2014, 10:53:38 AM
Neil, when I saw this car I immediately thought of you. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 10, 2014, 11:04:55 AM
I see why you thought that, Mike. Part race car, part BatCar  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 11, 2014, 10:52:14 AM
Are you leaving the cast and wrought iron finishes naked and figure they are adequately corrosion resistant without coating?

WW;

No, I just didn't want to take the time to plate or paint the bare metal surfaces. BTW, the front uprights are forged steel. I'll spray them with a waxy coating after I'm finished; it should give it some level of protection.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 13, 2014, 07:22:08 PM
Interesting time in the shop last evening-- found a 3 foot rattlesnake curled up next to the wall under a cart.  :-o

He had an attitude from tripping a mousetrap so there was a constant buzz from his rattles. After watching him for 10 minutes, he started looking like he was considering moving to somewhere else in the shop-- which I couldn't allow. Two shots from a Ruger Mark II .22 took care of the problem.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on November 13, 2014, 08:38:11 PM
Neil, hope you were using shorts.... even a 22 can leave a divot in the floor  :-o

Had a friend that lived in the country, in a house on wheels... used to shoot mice from his recliner as they ran along the wall... hard on the trim, and occasionally needed to throw a piece of duct tape and caulking on the holes that went all the way through.  :-D
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 13, 2014, 08:50:09 PM
Stainless;

Nope, all I had were .22 Long Rifle. I aimed to use the "V" shaped steel sliding- door track as a bullet deflector. The bullets went through Mr Rattler and splattered lead on the wall in small pieces. I didn't want to put holes through the wall unless I had to.

Joline had gone to the shop to retrieve something from her sewing room (above the shop); I was in the house so she called me on the phone "There is something here making noise and scaring me..." At that point she didn't know it was a snake-- probably a good thing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 13, 2014, 08:59:26 PM
I had a Baretta .22 that used shorts but you can't even buy that ammo here anymore.
Obsolete they said.

My friend Guido drove 400 miles to the coast to buy an old Rover 90 that had been standing out
in the yard.
He towed it home and when he started stripping the car he found tiny tiny eggs under the seat.

He calls me and says he also saw a cute green snake hanging around. The eggs hatched too.
He won't kill anything, this guy. I know the area he bought the car so I sent him a "cute" pic of the snake
he described. He says, "That's it".

Green Mamba, fool. You're in a world of Doo Doo. I won't go to his place now.
Those things go looking for trouble and are deadly.

You did good Neil. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on November 13, 2014, 09:31:53 PM
Neil, Yep good that Joline didn't know what it was and that no holes are in the shop wall... after I hit send I thought about my first Air Force boss and his buddies getting a boat from Rec Services, taking it out fishing in Arkansas.  Water Moccasin  dropped out of a tree and into the aluminum jon boat with them, Bill had a 9 shot 22 revolver in the tackle box... shortly they were scrambling to get to shore before the 9 holes under the snake put them in the water with a lot more possibilities. 
His buddies ratted him out when we were all drinking a few beers after work one night.  :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 13, 2014, 09:44:19 PM
We tied hooks baited with bacon rind onto lines tied to tree limbs during summers in Oklahoma.  We made a circuit baiting them then repeated the loop to retrieve any caught fish.  My grandpa told me about cottonmouths laying up in the limbs just waiting to fall on a nice tender boy.  I never saw them.  It looks like these folks did.  Snakes are a lot worse than spiders.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 19, 2014, 06:28:06 PM
The front suspension is now finished and aligned, except for toe-in which I'll set to zero later. I re-made my anti-roll bar down links to get a little more clearance around the bottom of the upright and around the coil-over adjusting nut.

Today I mounted a big electrical connector that will allow me to charge the battery or to start the engine using an external 12V battery. It is made by Elcon and rated for beaucoup amps. It is mounted with 4 ea 10-32 Ti screws into steel Riv-nuts.

I measured the dimensions of a panel in the cockpit that I'll need to cut out. More rivet fun coming up!  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 19, 2014, 08:47:50 PM
There are two reasons I shouldn't, and therefore don't own a gun.

1 - I can't hit the broad side of a barn door.

2 - If I could, given the knuckleheads on the roads in Beerhaven, the damned thing would probably be empty before I got it home.

But I'd be hard pressed to come up with a better way to celebrate a birthday than by shooting snakes and working on a race car!

 :cheers:

Chris
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 20, 2014, 12:12:12 AM
That's a really nice unit Neil and knowing you it must be aero spec. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 20, 2014, 11:11:50 AM
Thanks, Mike. Yes, it is a standard MS3509 aircraft battery connector, rated for 750 amps continuous- 1500 amps intermittent. Overkill, but I had one so I used it.

I found a nice Clark Cable crimping tool on eBay for the wire terminations that I'll be doing soon. I lucked out on it-- incredibly cheap for this type of tool. These put a proper crimp on terminals made by AMP, T & B, Molex, etc. I'm avoiding those Chinese- made crimp terminals because they are not reliable.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 21, 2014, 12:32:50 AM
It looks great Neil. You're right about what guys here call "Fong Kong" quality.
None on my car thank God.
When do you think you might be ready to run?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 21, 2014, 10:39:34 AM
Next year, Mike (fingers crossed)  :|

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 22, 2014, 09:35:25 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing it done and ready to run. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 22, 2014, 11:04:17 PM
Me too, Mike!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 01, 2014, 05:30:55 PM
I've finished fabricating two (0.063"7075-T6) aluminum panels that close the cockpit on the inside of the chassis tubes. I did the usual zinc chromate epoxy primer preparation & spray paint. There are a few electrical components mounted on the right side panel so I installed a few 1/4-28 floating nutplates on the backside since that side will not be accessible once the panel is riveted in place.

Four stainless steel 10-32 Rivnuts provide secure mounting points for two 80 amp auto- reset circuit breakers. Two 40A relays handle a couple of high current circuits while one enormous relay serves as a master electrical cut-off. I have no idea what it was originally from, but it says "Air Force- US Army"; but considering the Air Force became an independent service in 1947, it must be old-- an early B-25 or B26 maybe? They used a 12V electrical system but so did an early C-47, AT-6, and SBD.

I've started riveting the left side panel on with a G-36 manual tool but I'm switching over to my air-hydraulic tool-- the NAS 1919 rivets have A286 bodies & stems, a nickel-iron superalloy. They are too hard to pull any more by hand!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 02, 2014, 06:50:58 PM
The left side inner panel is now riveted on-- 66 rivets in this one. I used the air/hydraulic riveter on some of the last ones- what a difference! The right side panel is only Clecoed on to check the fit. I'll put Blue Goo in the joint before pulling the rivets. The large hole with a bolt sticking out of the left panel is for the lap belt. I used a self- locking captive nut in the chassis bracket.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 03, 2014, 11:39:07 PM
The quality of your build never ceases to amaze me.
We could all learn a lot from you Neil.

Your choice of materials and components is awesome.

I'd love to be there when the car goes for tech inspection the first time.
Those guys are in for a treat. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 04, 2014, 07:20:47 PM
I just finished riveting the last internal aluminum side panel on. About a quarter of the way through the last panel-- the right side one--my PT-100 air/hydraulic rivet gun blew a seal and quit working.  :x  For the remaining rivets I was forced to fall back on my manual tool, a G-36 with a Huck nosepiece.

These blind rivets are 1/8" diameter made of A286 or Monel; it is all I can do to install these, even squeezing with both hands. It would take someone with forearms like Popeye to pull all of these rivets so I'm glad the seal blew close to the end of this job.

Next I need to mark the locations on the side pods to cut for installing removable inspection plates so that I can access the fire bottles and the inspectors can see the stickers on them. I haven't decided whether to hinge the plates like a small door or make them fully removable.

Onward into the gloom............

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 04, 2014, 09:42:22 PM
Neil, a lot of pop rivets are used in my build.  Sometimes before big jobs I fill a plastic bag with the rivets, spray silicon lube into the bag, seal it, shake it up, open it, and use the oily rivets.  It makes them a little bit easier to use.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on December 04, 2014, 10:40:06 PM
Really nice work Neil. Like always.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 05, 2014, 10:09:51 AM
Neil, a lot of pop rivets are used in my build.  Sometimes before big jobs I fill a plastic bag with the rivets, spray silicon lube into the bag, seal it, shake it up, open it, and use the oily rivets.  It makes them a little bit easier to use.

WW;

I'll try that next time. I can use every advantage I can get with these super rivets!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on December 05, 2014, 11:28:45 AM
Neil, watch out using a silicone based lubricant around the car if you're planning on painting it. You'll drive the painter nuts and the paint job may feature a lot of fisheyes.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 05, 2014, 12:27:47 PM
Thanks-- that's for sure, Peter. I'll try something like WD-40.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on December 05, 2014, 01:42:01 PM
Neil, WD40 will cause fisheyes. Don't ever walk into a body shop carrying a can of WD40 unless you want to make a very fast exit. The one lubricant I do know will not, and it's a very effective lubricant, is Gibbs. You can spray it on a piece of metal, wipe it off with a dry rag and paint away. I used to sell the stuff but don't anymore. I still use it in my shop all the time.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 05, 2014, 03:16:02 PM
Pete;

I had never heard of that stuff before-- thanks!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 05, 2014, 11:16:03 PM
That paint peeling problem is something I never thought about.  The metal work I do is bare and wiped down with an oily rag twice a year.  It might be a good idea to rivet and paint a piece as a trial sample before using the lubed rivets extensively.       
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 20, 2014, 07:32:41 PM
It's been a week of wiring. Most of the wiring is done, at least on the switch/breaker panel and some of the indicators. I checked out the operation with an old HP current- limited power supply. I like to do this so if there are any circuit errors, it shows up as putting the supply into current limiting (2A) rather than by smoke from burning wires.   :-P

The big master power relay works nicely-- slamming the red switch cover down turns the relay off and that shuts down the 12V power to everything. I'll put the panel back into position and fasten it with the 4 thumb screws. The lead dress is such that the panel can be unfastened and tilted down for access to the rear of the switches & circuit breakers.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 20, 2014, 07:47:07 PM
One more thing-- I've used mil-spec wire for everything I've done so far. I've collected rolls of the stuff over the years from local aircraft salvage yards, it came mostly from Hughes missile division (now Raytheon) but some I salvaged from an old scrap missile (Corporal) cable during the time I was in the army in Germany. The #4 missile wire serves as my battery and starter cables. Most of the wiring is either #10 or #16 depending on the current and length of the wire. A few light ga #22 are used for low- current applications.

The difference between mil spec wire and "automotive" wire is like night and day. Automotive wire consists of relatively few strands of slightly twisted copper wire while mil-spec wire has lots of fine silver plated copper wire strands with a tight twist. It is far more flexible and withstands vibration better than automotive wire. On the surplus market you can sometimes find it at very reasonable prices.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on December 20, 2014, 08:13:45 PM
I've found the mil spec to be easier to solder, giving more secure solder connection to terminals.
 
Quality components, as usual, Neil.

I'll be rewiring the Midget for an EFI box - one would be hard pressed to find a better example of doing it right than your post-up.

Smart insulating the non-used terminals on the starter switch.  :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 21, 2014, 12:51:28 AM
Great stuff Neil and as Chris pointed out, you use quality components. :cheers:
BTW, my March F2 race cars also used Mil Spec wiring etc.
Big difference from the auto variety.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: sofadriver on December 21, 2014, 01:12:49 AM
FWIW - there's a place close to my shop called Electronics Dimensions. Tons & tons of surplus mil electronic stuff. Mostly really old but high quality and cheap. Example; micro toggle switches rated for 25 amps at 24 volts - $4 each! You can google the name.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 23, 2014, 02:38:10 PM
More wiring has resulted in having functional indicator lights now. I'll need to change the legends , though-- no need for "Fil Bypass", "Pump Out", "Press Low", etc. The main power relay and starter relay both function and the impact switch shuts off 12V power to everything. I have some 14V #382 lamps to replace the 28V #327 ones now in the vertical stack.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 01, 2015, 06:54:55 PM
My back has been hurting for the past few days so I've been working on the computer, creating a wiring diagram for what I've done so far.

Our New Year morning was greeted by a half- inch of snow! OK, yoopers- I know it is hardly any at all but we don't see much of the stuff here in the desert.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 01, 2015, 08:52:15 PM
Hey, Neil -- what a coincidence.  We got about a half-inch of snow today, too.  just (barely) enough to cover the dirty snow and the sand on the roads.  It's pretty, isn't it? :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 01, 2015, 09:57:08 PM
It is, Jon but we're not used to getting snow. Have you ever seen folks running around trying to build a snowman with 1/2" of snow?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 02, 2015, 12:00:15 AM
Neil -

What program did you use to create your schematic?

I wound up using the Ticonderoga #2 method, but yours is a lot easier to read.

It is, Jon but we're not used to getting snow. Have you ever seen folks running around trying to build a snowman with 1/2" of snow?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

A number of years ago, we had a friend come live with us for about 6 months.  Raised in Georgia, moved to Seattle, and wound up operating a barbecue joint in Ho Chi Min City - an interesting story arch, in and of itself. 

A smart guy, but unfamiliar with the ways and appliances of the Great White North. 

He spotted our snow blower in the corner of the garage, and asked if it was a wood chipper.  :roll:

Happy New Year.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 02, 2015, 11:02:45 AM
Chris;

I used the same software that I use for my electronics design consulting business-- TINA Industrial v9. It is an analog circuit simulation program but it also includes a very easy to learn and use schematic drawing feature. It is a SPICE based program but it has been thoroughly modernized.

There is a free version called TINA-TI that you can download free from the Texas Instruments website www.ti.com. It is a limited version but is still quite useful. It's library of components is not as large as the commercial version but I could have drawn my wiring diagram with the free version except I would have had to create my own symbols for the lamps & motors. There is an Insert feature with Shapes that you can use to create geometrical shapes.

Sometimes I use TINA or TINA-TI simply as a drawing tool to create circuit diagrams.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 03, 2015, 01:31:42 PM
Yesterday I ran a radiator vent line back to where the header tank is located. The radiator air purge fitting is a -4 AN but it seems that no one makes a -4AN to 1/4" Nylo-Seal tubing adapter but in searching the internet for one I found that someone had used his 37 degree flaring tool to form a flare on his nylon tubing. He found that if the end of the tubing was heated, the flare remained permanent. I tried it and it seems to work but I've also ordered a couple of adapters to go from -4AN to 1/8" NPT and 1/8" NPT to Nylo-Seal. It is not as straightforward and clean- looking as simply flaring the tubing and using a -4 AN ferrule and nut. I'll think about which I'll settle on using.

I'm trying to decide whether to run my tach output signal from the Crane HI-6 CD ignition box to the SW tachometer in miniature coax, RG-174/U, or in a twisted pair shielded cable. In a mid- engine car this wire is longer than it is in a conventional front- engine car so I am concerned about extraneous noise pickup on this line causing erratic tach readings. Any suggestions?

I ran a woven sleeve over the wire bundle that goes from my instruments and switch/breaker panel back to the engine compartment. It tidies up the appearance and allows additional wiring to be added or subtracted- unlike cable lacing (which looks great but takes a lot of work). I added a few cushioned clamps to support the wire bundle.

The 14V #382 lamps arrived in the mail yesterday so I'll replace the #327s in my lighted indicators today.

I'm still undecided about installing electric radiator fans. The big fan I was planning to use was simply too tall to fit under the sloping nose of the car so I foraged in my stash and found 6 smaller fans that could work; they are 13.8V 2 amp Nidec TA600DC fans rated at somewhere between 240 and 300CFM free-air delivery. An array of 6 fans should move enough air to cool the radiator in the pits or on the return road.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 03, 2015, 01:38:15 PM
Wow - cable lacing.  I remember seeing the instructions for it in the '62 ARRL handbook.  I never tried it -- shrink tubing and now zip ties worked for me.  But I've got a NC183 upstairs and it's all cable laced inside. Sure looks nice.  Go ahead, Neil -- do it for the sake of beauty - to show the youngsters how nice it looks. :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 03, 2015, 02:07:35 PM
Jon;

A National NC-183! I had an NC-98 when I was on the air as DL4CU back in high school. I always liked National stuff. The big geared knob of an HRO-60 was the epitome of receiver tuning. I never owned an HRO, though... snivel.

Maybe I'll haul out a roll of waxed lacing cord just to see if I remember how to do it.  :wink:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 03, 2015, 03:00:32 PM
Hijack haters -- bear with me as Neil and I talk about ham radio stuff for a minute.

When I was a high school freshman Dad made a deal with me -- if I built, from scratch (no kits) a novice transmitter and got it working he'd buy me a receiver.  I built a 15 watt peanut whistle out of that '62 Handbook -- and he bought me a used HRO 50.  It was way better than I knew how to use -- but it was good for me to learn.  Oh, do I wish I still had that receiver. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 03, 2015, 04:12:38 PM
"Oh, do I wish I still had that receiver..."

I'll bet!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 07, 2015, 09:45:39 PM
I still don't know if I'll really need a fan to cool the radiator but I thought that now is the time to fabricate one- just in case.

I decided to use an array of six small 12V fans and this made it necessary to cut 6" holes in my aluminum shroud. I made a circular gizmo out of 5/16 aluminum plate. on one end I drilled a 3/8" hole for a pivot bolt and 3" away from that I drilled a 7/16" hole that fits my rinky-dink Harbor Freight plasma cutter. The arc distance is set by a stack of 3/8" washers. After the pivot bolt is fastened to a center hole, the torch is placed into the 7/16" hole and the arc is run around the pivot. Voila! a nice big hole is cut out.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 07, 2015, 09:49:37 PM
The fan panel is almost finished; I still need to run the wires to the barrier strip. I did the usual 2- part zinc chromate primer and assembled the ribs with 1/8" Avex rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 08, 2015, 01:11:54 AM
Neil -

I love the repurposing aspect of this, but it's got me pondering.

Just did a bit of math - you're pulling about 1500 CFM with this setup, which is about 500 cfm more than a single 10" electric should pull, and your total fan area is about 216 sq in vs ~79 for a 10".

I guess my question is this - is this going to be flush up against the radiator?

If it's a 14x21 opening (approximate), you've blocked off about 1/4 of the radiator and limited quite a bit of passive heat dissipation.  If it is, I suspect the shrouding may actually inhibit air that would pass over the fins unassisted, and the fins that are being locally cooled by the small fans may be cooled beyond the capacity to dissipate heat.

Maybe?  :roll:

Of course, it's all a grand experiment.

As usual, I certainly can't fault the craftsmanship!  :cheers:

I downloaded the TINA program - Trying to find a program to open it - thanks for that tip!



Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on January 08, 2015, 09:08:47 AM
Neil, I tend to agree with Chris on this one.  I think you will be doing more harm than good with that set-up.  YMMV

Dan
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 08, 2015, 11:24:22 AM
Chris;

When you downloaded TINA-TI you should probably have received a zip file that includes an executable installation file. Unzip & install.

Yes, there won't be as much air running through the radiator at speed but we'll see if that becomes a problem. No, the fans aren't right up against the radiator; that would block quite a bit of area and the vibration would eventually wear a hole in a radiator tube. I have about a 1" standoff that provides a plenum so that air does flow through all of the radiator area, but it is faster directly under each fan.

A 10" fan has an area of only 78.5 sq in but the flow rating of automotive electric fans is suspect. I think the CFM rating is probably done with a #2 Ticonderoga pencil by marketing types. Note that flow vs pressure curves are rarely provided, unlike industrial fans.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 08, 2015, 11:55:25 AM
I'm with Neil. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 10, 2015, 06:44:43 PM
I ran into town to run a few errands, one being to take advantage of a heat gun on sale at HF for $8.99. My old Ideal heat gun finally burned out the heating element. It was a POS and not repairable so I junked it and, most conveniently, the HF sale came up at the right time for me. Out of desperation yesterday I tried my wife's hair dryer on the shrink tubing but it would barely affect it.

I finished wiring all the fans on my panel and they all work.  :lol: 

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 10, 2015, 06:48:26 PM
The panel is mounted with the same 1/4"-28 bolts that fit through vibration mounts into nut plates on the underside of the radiator support tubing.

This shows how it is mounted.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 10, 2015, 08:23:26 PM
Neil. your car looks a lot like one that could do more than run in a straight line. :evil:

The workmanship is as expected from you. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 11, 2015, 11:06:41 AM
Yes, that is the idea I have , Mike. I know that the SCTA rules are the rules and I don't have a problem with that.

It's just my own definition of a "modified sports" that I have-- "sports" to me is a car that can go road racing. I realize that giving away LSR advantages such as a greatly increased wheelbase, lots of added ballast weight, a stretched nose, etc., etc. is a handicap at Bonneville but I'll be happy with whatever speeds that I can run-- a record is not my goal. I just want to drive a car that I built by myself on the salt at Bonneville. As Anthony Hopkins said in the movie "TWFI", "It's hallowed ground, mate."

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on January 11, 2015, 07:53:40 PM
Hi Neil,  did you work out center of pressure vs center of gravity yet? If not, maybe we can print a 3d model of it to see what it needs for tail feathers.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 11, 2015, 08:11:08 PM
Hi Rob;

I know where the CG is from lifting the chassis with my engine hoist. I know the engine & tranny weights so I can calculate the resulting CG. The fiberglass bodywork wouldn't add much so I could probably omit it without much error.

What would be needed to generate a 3D model? It sure would be great to know the CP location.

I've been estimating things based on old MIRA wind tunnel data supplied to me by a friend. The data covers the Ford GT40, Porsche 917, Gulf Mirage M4/500, and Ford F3L in various configurations. These are all sports racing cars with a similar size and configuration as mine.

Thanks for your interest.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 11, 2015, 09:00:31 PM
It's just my own definition of a "modified sports" that I have-- "sports" to me is a car that can go road racing. I realize that giving away LSR advantages such as a greatly increased wheelbase, lots of added ballast weight, a stretched nose, etc., etc. is a handicap at Bonneville but I'll be happy with whatever speeds that I can run-- a record is not my goal. I just want to drive a car that I built by myself on the salt at Bonneville.

What I really think is great about this one is that while your focus is Bonneville, when you're done with this, you could wind up with a sports racer that will be as capable, likely the equal of, and certainly safer than just about anything in its class. 

Which, I guess, begs the question - Other than Bonneville, have you any other plans for this?  It might be a little heavy, but with a change of tires and unchoking the steering, this would be a riot as a track day car.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 11, 2015, 09:19:50 PM
That is what I have in mind, Chris.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on January 11, 2015, 10:21:08 PM
Hi Neil

I still think you better stick some lead in that beauty to keep her planted

You remember the ' Road Atlanta Flying Club ' in the Can-Am days?

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 11, 2015, 11:46:20 PM
Yes, and Hugh Dibbly started it all...


Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 12, 2015, 07:41:14 AM
Road Atlanta is a roller coaster compared to the salt IMHO. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on January 12, 2015, 09:21:20 AM
You should try Road America in Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 12, 2015, 12:26:41 PM
Dan, I have but only on the sim. :-o
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 14, 2015, 01:47:23 PM
I replaced the 28V #327 lamps in my lighted indicators with 14V #382 lamps. The original legends were intended for who knows what... "FIL BYPASS" ?

I replaced the plastic inserts with new ones showing appropriate text. I printed the text on a transparent plastic sheet with my inkjet printer and baked it in an oven at 150F. It does curl the sheet a bit but this didn't cause problems. The instructions from Grafix simply says let the ink dry for 10 minutes or so before handling. In reality, allowing 30 hours still doesn't dry the ink. The key is to bake the ink on. This plastic has an adhesive backing so I covered the printed text with a piece of unprinted sheet to protect it. This was cut to size and slipped into the slot in the front of the Roto-Tellite indicator.

A small piece of green "gel" sheet was placed behind and a clear plastic piece about 1/16" behind that to fill the slot. Results were disappointing, the clear plastic allowed the lamps to be clearly visible so I removed the clear plastic insert and sanded it on both sides with 400 wet-or-dry to make it translucent-- that worked nicely. The photos do not show how green the background really is-- they look too white in the pictures.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on January 14, 2015, 02:56:25 PM
Filter Bypass?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 14, 2015, 03:32:41 PM
Probably, Jim. Two others read "PUMP OUT" and another "PRESS LOW". Something to do with a hydraulic system I guess.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 14, 2015, 08:19:52 PM
That's an awesome dash Neil.
I love the detail. :cheers:

What are the dimensions?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 15, 2015, 11:44:39 AM
Mike;

The instrument panel is 32" wide by 4 1/2" high, aluminum with two u-channel stiffening ribs top & bottom. The whole thing is mounted on three aircraft shock mounts to protect the gauges from vibration.


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on January 15, 2015, 05:11:53 PM
Neil, looks great,question are you going to the toggle switch red covers on the bottom row? With gloves on it makes it easy to click off one or all with a additional bar across the top to close all at once.
Just a thought.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 15, 2015, 06:21:31 PM
Glen;

Thanks for your suggestion. It isn't visible in the photo but there is a huge 12V relay (marked "US Army Air Corps") that is operated by this switch in series with an impact switch. If either the switch guard is snapped down or the impact switch is triggered, ALL of the 12V power is shut off. The indicator showing green "OPR" changes to amber "STBY" when this happens and the "POWER" indicator shuts off. As long as the battery switch is on, the "BATTERY" light is on.

Most of what appear to be toggle switches are actually Airpax switch breakers-- circuit breakers that are designed to be a toggle switch with a built- in circuit breaker. This way I can control electrical stuff individually as well as having circuit protection.


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 16, 2015, 07:54:04 PM
Another very tiny step forward; I have added a push- pull control cable to actuate my battery cut-off switch. I didn't like my original idea so I re- did it. This cable runs forward to the nose. On the right side of the radiator air inlet there will be a small handle to shut off the battery by a pull, which rotates the arm and moves the switch to the "OFF" position. The thing is a trial assembly right now so there is no nut on the rod end bearing thru bolt. I'll clean it up and finish it with primer before final assembly.

The arm is made out of 1/2" 6061-T6 plate. If I can find a threaded handle it will save me from having to make one. Rubber- lined 3/8" clamps secure the control cable to the chassis.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 16, 2015, 08:06:05 PM
It looks good Neil.

You've made a lot of progress lately.
How long do you think before you're done?. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 16, 2015, 09:07:19 PM
One thing I've learned, Mike, is that hot rods and race cars are never really "finished". There is always something that gets added or changed.

I hope to have it running by Speed Week. Maybe.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on January 17, 2015, 10:48:23 AM
Hi Neil

You could drill and tap the side of your arm and put a set screw in to go onto the shaft flat spot, just to make sure the arm does not rotate on the shaft when you really need it

To go along with your pinch bolt for extra safety, cant be to carful with these types of things !!

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 17, 2015, 04:20:52 PM
G Don;

Yes, I plan to do that, or put a pin through both. It needs to be a positive retention as you pointed out.

The shaft on that battery switch is not just a flat on the round shaft. For some reason they put on two tapered flats that fit the original cast zinc knob.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on January 17, 2015, 09:18:34 PM
Some kind of a pressed fit deal I guess ?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 17, 2015, 09:22:33 PM
The original know was held on the shaft by a setscrew through the knob into the center of the shaft. The tapered flats provided something to turn the shaft. I wonder why someone doesn't make a battery switch with an actuating arm as an option?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on January 17, 2015, 09:40:30 PM
The new breed of bean counter won't allow cool stuff to be made anymore, junk rules

It is a very sad comment about the way things are done today here in the good old USA

Getting harder to find the good stuff no matter what it is

A bummed out G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 21, 2015, 07:12:29 PM
I was afraid that this might happen.   :-P 

I searched the internet for a pull knob that would be suitable for my battery cut-off cable, a push- pull control cable with ends threaded 10-32. No luck, so I made one out of 1/2" 6061-T6 aluminum plate. Nothing fancy- I cut it out with a hacksaw, dressed it up on a belt sander and then tapped it 10-32. I had a can of self-etching primer so I tried that after soaking it in a phosphoric acid solution. The topcoat of red should make it visible to the emergency crew. I designed it so that it could be pulled by a person wearing gloves.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 21, 2015, 07:34:10 PM
That's a pro job there Neil.
They do "make" some good stuff in the old USA. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 22, 2015, 09:46:53 PM
That red and yellow gives a southwest flavor to the car.  They are cheerful colors.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 24, 2015, 06:28:05 PM
More cheerful colors, WW.

I placed my battery in the required box and padded it with slabs of polyethylene foam to cushion it from vibration. It is a closed-cell foam so it doesn't absorb liquid. I added a blue poly rope around the battery so I can use it as a grab handle to easily lift the battery out of its box. It is the biggest battery Costco had that would fit into this box.

The box is now placed into its fixture and clamped into place in the passenger's foot well. I still need to install a few more cover bolts.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 24, 2015, 10:17:49 PM
That's a really nice box Neil. :cheers:

Whenever I post pics on my build I get good advice from the guys that KNOW.

Is there a cover that fits between the box and gas pedal?.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 25, 2015, 10:08:42 AM
I hadn't thought of putting a panel there but now that you mentioned it, it sounds like a good idea. Thanks, Mike.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 06, 2015, 08:35:07 PM
All the wiring in the instrument panel, switch and circuit breaker panel, and to the fans is now finished and I also put in wiring that extends back to the ignition box and starter, etc. but I won't connect those until the engine is in place. The wire lengths must be determined before I cut them to fit. Some braided sleeving made that wire bundle look neater.

I removed the left fiberglass side pod today and installed the release cable in the firebottle manual actuator head. I also routed the automatic firebottle hose into the engine compartment so I can aim it at the headers & oil pan per the rule book.

I've decided to cut a panel in the side pod so it can be removed to gain access to the two firebottles and dry sump oil tank as well as the coolant lines running between the engine and radiator. Tomorrow I should get the panel cut out and then decide whether I'll hinge it or make it completely removable as well as whether I'll use Dzus fasteners or some Hartwell trigger latches.

With all the thousands of rivets I have, wouldn't you know it- I had to order some longer Avex rivets for my side pod to chassis attachment. The ones I had were just a wee bit too short. Arrrggghhh. Aircraft Spruce just got an order for 250 rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on April 06, 2015, 08:45:13 PM
Neil, I noticed the bracket by the pedal is square edged. Don Vesco told me years ago to eliminate all sharp and square things with padding. Said while flopping around inside the cockpit those are the things that can really hurt you.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 06, 2015, 09:04:06 PM
Good advice, Glen. It was also recommended to put a panel between there and the driver. I'll do one or the other-- thanks.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 07, 2015, 08:42:06 PM
Today was a fairly productive day. I marked the access panel cut-out on the left fiberglass side pod cover with blue tape, removed it from the chassis and cut out the panel. I drilled two starting holes in the bottom side to insert a "body saw" (pneumatic HF tool) and cut two radiused corners and then realized that the blade was too dull to cut much more. A search turned up no spare blades so I switched to a fine-tooth (32 TPI) saber saw for the straight cuts. I had to revert to the body saw to cut the two other corners since the saber saw wouldn't turn a tight radius.

As I had it up on sawhorses anyway, I sanded the cut edges smooth and then fabricated a bottom air skirt for that side (driver's side) from 1" x 0.065" 7075-T6 aluminum angle. The pieces I had were all too short so I had to make it in two pieces with a splice panel made from the same stuff. It was necessary to trim both legs shorter and put a small radius on the outside edge so the splice would lay flat The angle is made with an inside radius, not a sharp edge. I'll shoot zinc chromate primer later when I do the skirt for the passenger side.

I'll post a few pictures of the skirt and how it will be fastened to the chassis. The fiberglass will be sandwiched between the skirt and the chassis brackets.

Next will be deciding on how I'll fasten the access panel to the side pod fiberglass. Among other things, this panel will allow inspectors to check the fire bottle certs, etc.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 07, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
Here is the result. The skirt actually mounts on the outside of the fiberglass-- this is just a trial fit.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 07, 2015, 09:23:16 PM
Hi Neil, When cutting Glass with a reciprocating saw you need to improvise.
After 30 years of trial and error (not all, the early years) I've found that a hacksaw blade
works best. 18T Starrett Red or (Green Stripe if you can get it).

The finer tooth stuff wears out in no time. I grind the backside of the blade to a taper so it goes around tight corners.
I'll leave it full size for the straight bits and try keep the extended length to 2" for safety.

You did a neat job there as always. I love it when you post pics. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on April 07, 2015, 09:28:57 PM
I've been watching your finishing assembly, and your electrical work.  

It's given me pause for thought as I've been trying to wire the Bugeye.

You've demonstrated a standard here that annoyingly lofty.

So now I find myself asking, "W.W.N.D?"  :roll:

Thanks for the inspiration, Neil!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 07, 2015, 09:31:07 PM
Mike;

Thank you for those suggestions. Your vast composite experience puts you in my "guru" category.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 07, 2015, 09:32:03 PM
Aw shucks, Chris. Now you've made me blush.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 07, 2015, 10:00:41 PM
Aw shucks, Chris. Now you've made me blush.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

He's right on the money Neil.
You've set the mark HIGH!!!!!.
I want that quality or bust. :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 08, 2015, 07:22:35 PM
The side pod fiberglass is not very thick so it is not very stiff along the long cut edges. To prevent oil canning at high speed I thought it would be prudent to stiffen those edges with some of the same 7075-T6 1"x1" 0.065 angle that I used to fabricate the side skirt. They are drilled now and Cleco'ed in place in this photo. I shot some primer on them so I'll need to wait until tomorrow to rivet them on. I left space on each end to install self- ejecting Dzus fasteners.

34 more holes drilled. When someone asks, I think I can say "I built the hole thing."

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 08, 2015, 11:23:28 PM
Looking good Neil. You definitely did the hole thing. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 09, 2015, 09:10:48 PM
Good ol' Aircraft Spruce came through today with the longer Avex rivets that I had ordered so I was able to install the stiffener ribs in my sidepod access panel. I used blue goop to seal the joints to keep as much salt, debris, and water out as possible. Maybe tomorrow the Dzus tabs will arrive and I can put in those self-ejecting spring plates.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 09, 2015, 11:20:20 PM
Neil, when you reccomended the Avex rivets for my application did you mean 1601-0414?  :|Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 09, 2015, 11:59:38 PM
Wayno-

An Avex 1601-0414 is a dome head aluminum body/steel stem rivet; the "0414" designates the diameter (1/8") and grip length ( I forget that length). If that is what you need, size-wise, they work very well.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 10, 2015, 08:48:42 AM
Thanx Neil. That will do it.  :cheers: Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 10, 2015, 12:15:55 PM
Wayno;

Avex rivets are not exactly "structural" but they fit between expensive aerospace rivets and el cheapo hardware store pop rivets. They are stronger than pop rivets, have a wide grip range, and the stem doesn't fall out under vibration. That stem accounts for a big percentage of the rivet's shear strength. Let me know how they work out for you.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 10, 2015, 01:25:44 PM
Thanx Neil. They are ordered.  :cheers: Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 10, 2015, 04:57:31 PM
I cut a hole in each corner to mount a self-ejecting Dzus fastener and then drilled two #30 holes for mounting it with Avex rivets. Blue goop was applied to this, too.

I riveted my side pod top cover on with 70 Avex rivets and 12 CherryLock CR2562-4-3 high strength monel rivets in the forward section where a mount for the front body will be attached.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 10, 2015, 08:24:35 PM
Still waiting for the Dzus tabs to be delivered.

I riveted on a bracket to attach the front body to the structure. The rivets are NAS 5/16" monel blind rivets that require the big tool shown in the pictures to pull. The 1/4-28 titanium screws will go through an aluminum doubler plate on the flat fiberglass surface of the front body and into the nut plate strips shown in the photos. This should provide a strong, rigid attachment.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 14, 2015, 09:53:14 PM
The Dzus tabs just arrived so I'll get on that this weekend. Joline and I are driving over to Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument tomorrow. We thought we'd better do it before it got too hot.

I made a tube beading tool out of a pair of Vise-Grips this morning. It was even able to put a passable bead on my 1.5" dia 16ga stainless tubing that is part of my cooling system. Why such heavy gauge tubing? Because that was what I had lying around the shop. Believe me, I'd much rather use 18Ga; the strength required to put beads on 16ga wore me out this afternoon.

The tube end shown is just a raw end- no dressing or polishing yet.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 14, 2015, 11:16:27 PM
Very clever tooling Neil.

I hope you never got blisters on your hands.

Enjoy the trip and be safe.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on April 14, 2015, 11:20:12 PM
Good job Neil. 16 ga. stainless is a pretty challenging material to put a significant bead into. It's fun when you build a tool and it works like it's supposed to.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 15, 2015, 06:33:07 PM
Neil,
Great job as usual. I have installed a "few" Dzus tabs in my day and as you probably know the dimensions for the spacing of the rivet holes varies with every spring type and many times you might have a self ejector style Dzus tab and the rivet hole distance for the spring is different than the tab. What I have done is to make a drill template from some 1/8 steel pieces and each template has a center hole and two holes that are at the various spring and tab rivet hole dimensions. Once I locate where I want the Dzus I drill a hole for a 1/8 cleco and then I can exactly locate the rivet holes for the spring or the tab by clecoing the the appropriate drill template to the part and then the drill the rivet holes for the spring or tab and they are always exactly on center and the right distance apart. When I do tab Dzus fasteners I like to use the counter sink Avex rivet and install it from the back through the panel and then the tab plate, as this makes the back of the panel  flat so you don't have a lump between the panels at the tab location and because the Avex rivet makes just a small round bulb when it is pulled the installation looks good.

I have attached a pic of my Dzus templates.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 15, 2015, 09:03:30 PM
Those are good suggestions, Rex. Your drill guides remind me of the ones used to drill holes for nut plates.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 18, 2015, 11:46:14 AM
I finished the Dzus tabs and primed them so now they are ready to install. I used Rex's suggestion about using countersunk (flathead) rivets for mounting the springs and countersinking the back of the panel for rivets; they are put in "backwards" from what would be considered normal. It worked out just fine- no interference from the pulled rivet bulbs.

I scoured the internet and found not even one procedure for mounting self-ejecting Dzus fasteners to mounting tabs. This forum is a wealth of information. Thanks, Rex.

BTW, eagle-eyed viewers may spy the center punch marks on the tabs; it is to identify which one goes where.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 19, 2015, 12:40:07 AM
I saw the punch marks. :-D

When it comes to your build I don't miss a single thing. :cheers:

Always the best learning experience.

Thanks Neil.

You, among others make this forum what it is.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on April 21, 2015, 09:08:08 PM
Hey Neil I guess it was too hard to get to your number stamps ? [ chuckle ]

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 21, 2015, 09:26:21 PM
I took the lazy way out, Don.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on April 21, 2015, 11:25:57 PM
Yep been there done that, even used a square file to make a notch too what ever gets it done
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 06, 2015, 03:00:26 PM
I've been working on the radiator plumbing lately. Putting a bead on the tube ends does help a T-bolt clamp retain the tube; without a bead it is possible to pull the tubing out of the rubber coupling even with a fully tightened clamp- it just slides out.

My mechanical water temperature gauge required a threaded bung in a radiator tube so I silver brazed on a 1/2" NPT fitting. Now I need to dress the capillary tubing and put on some clamps to keep it in place.

BTW, I had a hard time finding what the minimum bend radius was for capillary tubing. For reference, Stewart Warner says it should be 2" or greater bend radius.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 09, 2015, 10:46:28 PM
I routed the water temp capillary tubing and finished most of the left side coolant plumbing; now working on the right side. One stainless 90 degree bend must have been cold- worked by the mandrel bend-- I couldn't get a bead on the end no matter how hard I squeezed my home made beading tool. I wrapped a few turns of safety wire around the tube end and silver brazed it on. Not as pretty as a nice bead but it should keep the hose from blowing off.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 10, 2015, 02:26:34 AM
Still the tidiest build on the forum. :cheers:
Neil, you've set the benchmark for quality.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 10, 2015, 12:11:45 PM
Thanks, Mike.

Has anyone used Gates Power Grip hose clamps? They are a heavy plastic sleeve that heat shrinks over tube ends and they replace other types of hose clamps. I ordered some to try on a few of my radiator hose connections but I'm interested in what others think of them.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on May 10, 2015, 08:11:52 PM
Hi Neil

Use good old metal clamps that work, don't need no plastic in that place

Let someone else be a pioneer as they get arrows in the fanny

That's all you need is some hot water on your rear tires at 200 , bad deal and could make for a real bad day too

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 10, 2015, 08:54:40 PM
Don;

I don't need no stinkin' scalding hot water on me, either   :-D

Gates has been selling these clamps since 1996; have you tried them?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on May 10, 2015, 09:15:31 PM
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/oetiker.php?clickkey=4904
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on May 10, 2015, 10:22:48 PM
Neil I have been away from motorsports for years , but I follow it all the time to stay current with the building & racing like on the forum here and your car

Buy the best metal ones you can find, drill a safety wire hole and wire them up and run your car

Forget the trick stuff as you just need the time proven basics, you will have enough to worry about with out anything going wrong  [ KISS keep it simple right ] those are racing words to live by

With 25 yrs of building pro racing engines , I have seen it all from the sound package to the ultra-trick and the trick guy is on the trailer and the sound basic guy is taking home the trophy and the cash !!!!!!!!!!

G Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 10, 2015, 10:39:50 PM
Neil. Years back I used some ratchet type plastic hose clamps for heater pipes
on a motor. I don't think they were Gates?.

I changed back to the steel eventually. They weren't easy to service so to speak.
I think I still have one or two and I'll take pics.

How do you remove the Gates clamps if you need to?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on May 10, 2015, 11:20:04 PM
http://www.gates.com/products/automotive/fleet-and-heavy-duty/hd-cooling-system/hd-hose-clamps/powergrip-sb-clamps
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 10, 2015, 11:21:06 PM
Thanks John.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 11, 2015, 12:19:49 AM
Mike;

Those were not the same kind- these are collars that fit over the hose and shrink when heated with a heat gun.

There is a tool for cutting them off or a soldering iron can melt a groove and they'll come off. They are not reusable.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 11, 2015, 01:13:36 AM
Cool. I checked them out and you're right. Mine weren't the same. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on May 11, 2015, 01:57:14 AM
Neil, used them on the liner, have a few on the lakester.  They are installed by multiple OEM cars and trucks.  They work great.  As you said, they are a one time use, removable by cutting off. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 11, 2015, 12:10:16 PM
Stainless;

Thanks- that was what I wanted, feedback from a user. I'll try them.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 15, 2015, 04:37:27 PM
UPS delivered my order of Gates Power Grip hose clamps yesterday and I installed a couple of them to see how they worked. These clamps are easy to install- crush the cardboard form and slip the clamp off, slide it over the tube/hose joint and use a heat gun to shrink it in place.

I'm impressed by how tight these clamps get. One advantage over worm drive or T-bolt clamps is that you won't slice off any skin with these. Nice for tight places where your hands need to work.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on May 15, 2015, 04:53:41 PM
But they are a one time use. At Bonneville that could be a problem if removed for some other work. I will stay with a good SS clamp .
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 15, 2015, 04:55:32 PM
True-- I will carry extra t-bolt clamps for use in emergencies.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 17, 2015, 10:27:36 PM
Today I finished the coolant lines on the right side. They pass by the outside of the fuel tank support and will just fit under the fiberglass side pod. The hard line is 304 SS with both T-bolt clamps and Gates Power Grip shrink collars.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 17, 2015, 11:22:35 PM
That's a lot of race car there Neil. :-D :-D :-D

Beautiful work man.
Just awesome detail. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 18, 2015, 10:55:03 AM
Thanks, Mike. Coming from a fellow who is building an awesome machine himself, it is high praise.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: aa22 on May 18, 2015, 12:36:56 PM
Nice Build!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 18, 2015, 12:42:06 PM
Howdy, Mr. aa22.  Thanks for joining our Forum.  I see that you've left the "location" blank - well, blank.  We'd sure like to know where you are -- city & state is good enough.  I also notice that you've attached a link to Audi servicing.  Well, we kinda frown on doing what looks like advertising on the Forum since it's pretty much paid for by donations from the members.  If you'd like to buy some ads -- that we can do.  But until you get in touch -- don't be surprised if your registration gets disappeared.

Jon a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim, Head Handlebar Holder of landracing.com
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: aa22 on May 18, 2015, 12:50:25 PM
Thanks for the welcome, Ive added my location as you requested.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on May 18, 2015, 04:00:33 PM
But they are a one time use. At Bonneville that could be a problem if removed for some other work. I will stay with a good SS clamp .

To add to what Glen said...

The other problem is the SCTA rule book 3.R "All liquid cooling systems utilizing non-braided circulation lines shall have metal clamps at each connection. The use of plastic tubing in a cooling system is not allowed."
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 18, 2015, 04:53:11 PM
I suppose I could put a worm drive clamp over the Power Grip sleeve if I absolutely had to.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: PorkPie on May 19, 2015, 05:58:23 AM
Thanks for the welcome, Ive added my location as you requested.

STRANGE.....the Audi Advertiser Link is for a website in UK (England)...but the address listed says NY in the states....just around the corner.....thinking :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on May 19, 2015, 03:19:17 PM
I suppose I could put a worm drive clamp over the Power Grip sleeve if I absolutely had to.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil, you have to.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 19, 2015, 04:17:57 PM
Yeah, I know... I will do it. Grumble, grumble.... :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 19, 2015, 04:28:58 PM
I mounted a brake proportioning control valve this morning. Maybe I can even out the F & R braking effort on salt, maybe not-- we'll see. The main high speed braking will be from a 'chute but I'd like to have a back-up. On the X-Mile events the brakes should be very effective but I'll use the 'chute as required.

I'd prefer to mount this control where it would be accessible from the cockpit but there was no good place for it without interfering with a quick bail- out. I don't want my fire suit catching on this knob (or anything else).

I drilled 1/4" holes in the side pod top panel and put in four 10-32 UNF stainless steel Rivnuts for the Phillips head titanium screws. The neat aluminum bracket was a piece of aircraft surplus that I bought a long time ago with the idea that it would be useful some day.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on May 19, 2015, 06:45:36 PM
Yeah, I know... I will do it. Grumble, grumble.... :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,
     Have a talk with the head inspector re the hose clamps. When we first started using Aeroquip blue hose with the push on fittings some inspectors were adamant that since it wasn't the familiar braided hose type screw on end we would have to use hose clamps on them. When I showed them Aeroquip's rated and burst strength numbers for the hose assembly along with the instruction manual saying that the use of hose clamps was not recommended they were allowed.
Jim
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 19, 2015, 08:34:46 PM
Thanks, Jim. I'll bring along Gates' info on those Power Grip clamps for my log book.

I did get a 3/16" line run partway back to my rear brake calipers. I'm using ANxxx cushioned clamps to secure the lines to the chassis so they don't vibrate too much.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JonAmo on May 19, 2015, 08:35:36 PM
Great thread Neil and excellent work using the SB Clamp.

These are just as good as any type of steel band clamp (of the many out there). There are many advantages to using a SB Clamp and only a few disadvantages.

What makes a metal clamp any safer then a SB Clamp? That is the question that needs to be asked? OEM's have been using this SB Clamp (different variation for OE than the aftermarket version) for many year in the harshest environment of any vehicle, Medium and Heavy Duty Vehicles. Volvo, Freightliner, Mercedes, International etc. etc.

Jon

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on May 19, 2015, 08:53:59 PM
You can ask for a "Rule Deviation" see section 1.R in your rule book.

Bringing technical data to tech/safety inspection is NOT a good idea. The tech inspector has a line of cars and a list of items (see the SCTA website for the inspection form) on the inspection form that he goes down. If it doesn't meet the form you CAN be kept from running. The Chief tech inspector can put a note in your log book if there's time for him to review the data but just because it's better doesn't always fly. Remember the tech inspector is only going down a check list.
The example Jdincau used is a case in point. Many people, myself included, use Parker push-on hose. The tech inspector has no way of knowing if it's the correct hose or not. So no hose clamp no racing. Unless you can show a note in your log book allowing said "Deviation"

Not trying to be a jerk, just pointing out the issues.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JonAmo on May 19, 2015, 09:03:21 PM
Hi Neil

Use good old metal clamps that work, don't need no plastic in that place

Let someone else be a pioneer as they get arrows in the fanny

That's all you need is some hot water on your rear tires at 200 , bad deal and could make for a real bad day too

G Don

G Don,

Your concerns are well taken. I am curious on why you would think they would not work causing "Hot water on rear tires at 200" issues? I am not implying anything is better or worse, I just want to convey the correct information, technical information and installation information for the correct way to use the SB Clamps.

Have you had the opportunity to use these type of clamps?

Jon
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 20, 2015, 08:11:24 PM
More progress today- got the hydraulic clutch line plumbed from the master cylinder to an AN fitting mounted on a tab adjacent to the transaxle. I'll use a flex hose from there to the clutch slave cylinder to allow for some vibration. I used 1/4" steel brake line tubing and AN4 fittings.

I also cut out an access port on the right side pod fiberglass to allow inspection of the firebottle sticker. I used a surplus aluminum inspection plate from an unidentified aircraft. It looks like it will work OK.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on May 21, 2015, 03:36:09 AM
Neil, using the typical worm drive clamp over your sleeve can make it leak.  Note that on the typical worm drive clamp there is a spot on the circumference that is solid and does not flex and conform to part being clamped.  There is some uneven pressure applied to the sleeve when the worm drive clamp is tightened down.  This can cause enough distortion in the sleeve to make it leak.  The best solution is to avoid the metal clamp.  Although, if that cannot be done, there are metal hose clamp types that do not distort the hose when tightened down.  The ones I use are made from wire and are tightened by a screw and nut that are alongside the clamp.  The crew is tightened and it pulls the wire loop tighter around the hose without distortion.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 21, 2015, 12:17:27 PM
WW;

I had the same thought-- a worm drive clamp over a shrink collar might not cause leaks if it was not tightened. I plan to just snug it up-- the rule book does require metal clamps but it doesn't say how tight they need to be.

Actually, requesting a Deviation seems to be the best approach. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 27, 2015, 08:01:45 PM
All the brake line is now plumbed as is the hydraulic clutch line. I used terne plated steel Bundy tubing- 3/16" brake & 1/4" clutch.

I installed a set of Performance Friction Carbon Metallic brake pads this afternoon. The big rear calipers & rotors are from a Porsche 928 S4 front brakes.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 28, 2015, 01:29:22 AM
Neil, my opinion is that you're not into the LSR like you say.

I see the Mulsanne straight in my minds eye. :-D :-D :-D :-D

If you need a co-driver I can handle endurance and I fit any car.

I know those calipers very well and they will stop just about anything.

Jokes aside, I wish I lived closer.
You're way ahead of anything I've seen here in a while.
Skunk Works on roids. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 30, 2015, 07:30:13 PM
Well, Mike, I'd like to drive it on a road course, too. The term "Modified Sports" doesn't mean the same to me as it does to the rule book.

I found a cross-threaded #3AN fitting in my brake plumbing and replaced it. Those 3AN fittings are much easier to cross-thread than any others that I've used.

The front brakes are OK but as I feared, the rear caliper seals are leaking so it's time to order some new seals. My calipers are the later 928 S4 calipers with new-style seals and 36 & 44mm pistons. Now to find some at a reasonable price...


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 30, 2015, 08:22:25 PM
I found the seals & dust boots at Paragon and placed an order. Fortunately the caliper bores and pistons are perfect. The pistons are hard anodized aluminum so there was no rust!


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 31, 2015, 08:08:23 PM
I stripped & cleaned the rear calipers in a solution of hot water and Dawn dishwashing detergent, which works pretty well. I had run out of Brake-Kleen so I improvised. After rinsing them thoroughly and blowing out any remaining water with compressed air, I set them aside to dry while I downloaded a bunch of Microsoft updates to the shop computer.

I put the metric-to-AN3 adapter into the calipers using Loctite Hydraulic Sealant to avoid leaks in the pipe thread- like metric thread in the caliper bodies.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 01, 2015, 04:45:50 AM
The metric to imperial stuff must drive you nuts?.
Are those AN3 threads Aluminum?.

I've seen a bunch of stripped threads on those over here and the guy that specializes in them doesn't take prisoners. You'll pay!!!!!!.

I'd love to visit with you. I understand your build. Had some experience with a C2 car that went to Le Mans.
Your's is a complicated kinda land based airplane project. :-D

I love it.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on June 01, 2015, 09:01:14 AM
The metric to imperial stuff must drive you nuts?.
Are those AN3 threads Aluminum?.

I've seen a bunch of stripped threads on those over here and the guy that specializes in them doesn't take prisoners. You'll pay!!!!!!.

I'd love to visit with you. I understand your build. Had some experience with a C2 car that went to Le Mans.
Your's is a complicated kinda land based airplane project. :-D

I love it.

My thought is that Neil's build has Penske Racing Turbo-Panzer quality.   I saw the originals up close and personal.  Current Nascar stuff comes close, depending on the team.   But for my money, the Penske Can-Am and Indy cars were/are the highest quality preparation I've ever seen.   Not bad results either . . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2015, 12:50:50 PM
Well, thanks, Mike & Fordboy.

Back in my Can- Am days, we did compete with Penske's 917-30. Bob's M8C could out-brake & out-corner the Porsche but at the exit, Donohue's Porsche produced a very loud "BANG" from the turbo and he was gone down the straight.

Yes, Mike- the bulkhead fitting was an AN3 aluminum but the tube fitting was steel. I think the AN3 fittings are so easy to cross-thread because of their fine thread, 3/8-24 if I remember right. I'd prefer to use all steel or all aluminum but I couldn't find everything I needed in one or the other.

Maybe some of the things I learned back in my Airframe & Power Plant classes have helped me build this thing.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on June 01, 2015, 02:06:21 PM
Neil, from what I've seen you paid pretty good attention in the A part of A & P  :-D  If the P is half as good you should be a happy racer when you see Dan.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2015, 05:49:44 PM
Thanks, Bob. I took that course at a local community college long ago but I still have the books. I really recommend the Aircraft & Powerplant Mechanics course to racers, it has lots of valuable information that is applicable to airplanes but also to race cars.

Today I ran an oil pressure line from where the port is on a SBC mounted mid-engine up to the oil pressure gauge in the instrument panel. I'm using 1/4" Parker Nylo- Seal tubing. This is a high grade Nylon and is really tough but, as additional protection against chafing where the tubing passes through a hole in a panel, I put a sleeve over it. The sleeve is heat-shrink tubing that has a meltable inner wall so it should not slip.

I tried a short piece as an experiment to see if the adhesive liner would stick to the tubing and to see if there was any softening of the tubing due to the heat gun. I'll post a few pictures.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: MattGuzzetta on June 02, 2015, 12:19:53 AM
Neil,
I may be noticing the hole edge before you have covered it, here is a link to McMaster Carr with the rubber edge material that would make a good protector for the tubing as well as your covering.....

  http://www.mcmaster.com/#flexible-strip-grommets/=xfyej5 

 I like to overkill on safety stuff when possible.  We need more pics of the car to see how it is coming, this is one of my favorite stops on the forum.....nice work! :cheers:

Matt Guzzetta
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on June 02, 2015, 09:57:57 AM
Also: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/grommetedging.php

Or Google: caterpillar grommets.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 02, 2015, 11:53:23 AM
Thanks, Woody & Matt.

I discovered those caterpillar grommets at Aircraft Spruce last week and just haven't ordered them yet. They should work nicely for larger holes but not for small ones. In the "olden days" we took a piece or rubber tubing, split it lengthwise down one side and wrapped that around the edge of a hole to protect wires & hoses from chaffing. This new stuff should be far better.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: MattGuzzetta on June 02, 2015, 07:05:25 PM
Gee Neil, we both must claim the "olden days" as we used to split tubing for edge covering as well!  It did work well...

Matt
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 07, 2015, 01:03:00 PM
My fuel call fill plate had only a fill, pickup, and a vent that included a ball check roll-over valve-- no fuel return port. I'll need one to return fuel from the pressure regulator/bypass, so I took off the fill plate to add that port. It is a good thing I did; the fuel pickup inside the tank is at the opposite end from where I thought it would be. The pickup hose curved back to the end that is away from where the fitting is.

I drilled a 9/16" hole in the steel plate and added an AN8 bulkhead fitting, using the conventional O-ring and grooved nut to seal the hole. I was surprised that fuel-Safe sealed their holes on the outside by placing nylon washers under the bolt heads and fittings rather than on the inside with O-rings. They work, just different. Since the top plate seals against the cell with a rubber/cork gasket, I used a torque wrench to tighten all the 1/4-28 bolts to 40 in-lbs to insure they are clamping the gasket uniformly.

Now I need to re-work the holes in the side pod aluminum panel for the added return port. Onward....

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on June 07, 2015, 02:10:49 PM
"It is a good thing I did; the fuel pickup inside the tank is at the opposite end from where I thought it would be." I think that has something to do with one of the "Laws of Racing" and is closely related to the assume or A$$-u-me corrollary.  :-D :-D :evil:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 07, 2015, 02:24:40 PM
Good point, Pete.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2015, 09:54:00 PM
I ordered the caterpillar grommets from Aircraft Spruce that Woody referred to and tried it around a hole in a gusset where my oil pressure tubing passes through; the stuff is easy to install and it fits on tight. I'll order more for use around places where gusset edges might benefit from softer edges.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2015, 09:59:06 PM
My fuel cell is now installed in the right side pod and most of the Avex rivets are installed in the panel; I need to temporarily remove a couple of things to get access to the remaining rivet holes.

The big hole in the rear is for a fire bottle. There are aluminum mounting clamps under the top panel.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 09, 2015, 12:48:08 AM
Show winning quality. :-D

Fantastic build. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 09, 2015, 01:07:13 AM
It is, Mike.  Stuff I see here is helping my build.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 09, 2015, 11:57:59 AM
If anything I'm doing helps someone else with their build, I'm glad to know that. I'm just passing along some knowledge that I've learned from others.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on June 18, 2015, 10:57:45 AM
Neil, are you on schedule for being ready to run this year? If so, what events are you planning? I can't wait to hang with you on the salt and study your car.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 21, 2015, 12:47:27 AM
I plan to tow my car to Speed Week so that I can get a preliminary inspection. There are still too many things to finish or have present (re-certified fire bottles, new fire suit & helmet, etc. ) to get everything signed off and to be ready to run. Even in an almost-finished state the inspectors can help me find anything that needs to be changed so the final inspection will go smoother.

What events I'll be ready for is totally up in the air at this point so ... we'll see.

You are more than welcome to visit wherever I get set up in the pits or at the camp site. I'll welcome comments & criticism; LSR is a venue that I've never built a car for, so experienced racers can be a big help to me.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on June 21, 2015, 08:09:55 AM
Neil, really looking forward to meeting you and seeing your car in August! Your build has been a "aircraft quality" build and I am looking forward to seeing all of your details! I will be by!

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 21, 2015, 02:35:37 PM
Thanks, Rex- I look forward to meeting you, too. I plan to be at Jon's "Salt Talks" once again so we might meet up there as well. I just got back from a cruise to Glacier Bay in Alaska so it's time to get to work on my car again.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Kiwi Paul on June 22, 2015, 12:57:00 AM
Neil--I`d like to see it, too. Maybe even grab a couple of other Inspectors and help out, if that is OK. Come by and get me. You know where Inspection will be, yes?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 22, 2015, 12:58:39 PM
I sure do know where the inspection area is, Paul. I've spent some time there in the past, just observing and learning all I can. Your help will be most appreciated. Any comments or criticisms are welcome.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 22, 2015, 09:47:56 PM
Don't tell me you're building a cabin up there Neil?. :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 22, 2015, 09:52:45 PM
Well, Mike, there is no more beautiful place to build a cabin than on the Inside Passage. I'm afraid that, being from Arizona, those winters would kill me-- if the bears didn't.  :-D

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 22, 2015, 10:00:36 PM
I only asked because I watch a show here on TV called "Building Alaska". :-D

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 22, 2015, 10:13:15 PM
Mike;

The most scenic parts of Alaska are in Glacier Bay and in the Brooks Range, near the coast. Except for one small Coast Guard station it is completely uninhabited.

I was not kidding about the bears. Alaskan Brown Bears can get to be 9 ft tall-- very dangerous animals as one fool found out a few years ago. He lived in a tent among the bears and he was convinced that if you treated them with kindness that they were not dangerous. He lived there for a couple of years and took beautiful photos & videos before they ate him and his girlfriend. It is the subject of a documentary called "Grizzly Man" by Werner Herzog.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 22, 2015, 10:23:16 PM
Yup, just like the idiots here in SA that hang out with the White Sharks. :evil:

Hope you enjoyed the trip. You deserved a break.

The car looks great. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 22, 2015, 10:41:28 PM
I guess that's why they call water skiing in SA "trolling for sharks."  :-D

A photo from Glacier Bay:

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 22, 2015, 11:14:34 PM
Thanks Neil. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 28, 2015, 01:15:06 AM
I cut out a panel to seal the air flow out of my radiator so that the hot air goes up out of the vent above the nose instead of out the bottom, disrupting the under-car flow. The plastic is what the circle track guys use, a high density polyethylene (HDPE). It is 1/8" thick and pretty tough but reasonably flexible. Cheap, too!

The strange brass-colored things are "cylindrical Clecos" which screw up to make a tight fit but still have a long reach. They will all be replaced with 3/16" Avex rivets.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Kiwi Paul on June 28, 2015, 01:18:20 AM
Neil---I have never seen those type of Clecos. Are they available at Aircraft Spruce? Any close up pics as to how they work? I think I understand your explanation of their workings, but there may be a Language Barrier.... :-D :-D...
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 28, 2015, 01:40:37 AM
Neil---I have never seen those type of Clecos. Are they available at Aircraft Spruce? Any close up pics as to how they work? I think I understand your explanation of their workings, but there may be a Language Barrier.... :-D :-D...

KP;

I think you'll have to find them on eBay. New, they are expensive but you can find bargains now & then because few people know what they are. I have not seen then at Aircraft Spruce.

Instead of a spring to pull the prongs up, these use a screw thread on a shaft that projects out of the top of the cylindrical body. A round tool is used to install or remove them. There is a one-way sprag in the center of the installation tool that acts like a ratchet. You slip the tool over the top of the shaft and turn the screw up or down. These Clecos can generate much more force than the small spring types. I've seen them in common rivet sizes and even up to 1/4" diameter. I also have an air tool that can install or remove cylindrical Clecos but I seldom bother with it on small jobs. Does this make sense?

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 28, 2015, 01:44:08 AM
Here is a link: http://clecofasteners.info/Cylindrical-Body-Cleco-Fasteners.html

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Kiwi Paul on June 28, 2015, 08:28:52 PM
Thanks, Neil.....Always Learning, I am..... :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 29, 2015, 01:41:01 AM
We all are, KP.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 07, 2015, 09:03:56 PM
I finished plumbing the fire extinguisher system, both for the cockpit and for the engine bay. I used 1/4" 3003 aluminum tubing- what a joy to work with compared to steel brake line! It forms easily and flares nicely.

In the cockpit the tubing runs under the instrument panel so I added some braided sleeving to make sure nothing could make accidental contact with a hot 12 volt terminal. I did the same thing where the tubing runs by an external charging/battery connector. Shrink tubing over the cut ends of the braided sleeve keep it in place and add a nice cosmetic touch.

I'll show a couple of pictures.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on July 07, 2015, 09:33:42 PM
I like the braided sleeve with the shrink tubing. Good job Neil!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 07, 2015, 09:39:46 PM
I wish I had your patience - the attention to detail - again - second to none.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 07, 2015, 09:40:45 PM
Thanks, Pete. The pictures make it look like it is flexible tubing but the fire bottle plumbing is all hard line.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on July 07, 2015, 09:48:10 PM
Very nice!   :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 07, 2015, 09:50:54 PM
I wish I had your patience - the attention to detail - again - second to none.  :cheers:

Actually Chris, I was looking for something else when I found a roll of braided nylon sleeving that I had forgotten about. The idea to put it over the hard line just popped into my head and I cut off a length of the stuff with scissors and it fit over the aluminum tubing just fine. The ends of the sleeve always look frayed unless they are tied with lacing cord or retained by a short length of shrink tubing.

Things like this only take a minute or so but, like de-burring holes, rounding off sharp edges, etc., make the finished product look better. I've sliced enough skin off to appreciate the time it takes to break sharp edges and corners- so it isn't just a cosmetic effort.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 08, 2015, 02:10:35 AM
I cut out a panel to seal the air flow out of my radiator so that the hot air goes up out of the vent above the nose instead of out the bottom, disrupting the under-car flow. The plastic is what the circle track guys use, a high density polyethylene (HDPE). It is 1/8" thick and pretty tough but reasonably flexible. Cheap, too!

The strange brass-colored things are "cylindrical Clecos" which screw up to make a tight fit but still have a long reach. They will all be replaced with 3/16" Avex rivets.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ

Neil. your standard of construction is right up there.
I always look forward to seeing your latest images. :cheers:

I have a bunch of Clecos in different sizes and believe it or not
I use them mainly for composites. They live in Coffee jars filled with thinner.
I lunched quite a few when I first started out. They got clogged with resin.

These are my larger less common Clecos that get pulled up using a wrench.
Zina's brother is a sheet metal aviation guy and I buy stuff from him from time to time.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on July 08, 2015, 06:43:10 AM
I wish I had your patience - the attention to detail - again - second to none.  :cheers:

Actually Chris, I was looking for something else when I found a roll of braided nylon sleeving that I had forgotten about. The idea to put it over the hard line just popped into my head and I cut off a length of the stuff with scissors and it fit over the aluminum tubing just fine. The ends of the sleeve always look frayed unless they are tied with lacing cord or retained by a short length of shrink tubing.

Things like this only take a minute or so but, like de-burring holes, rounding off sharp edges, etc., make the finished product look better. I've sliced enough skin off to appreciate the time it takes to break sharp edges and corners- so it isn't just a cosmetic effort.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,

It is always the "little", time consuming details that make the difference.    And separate "true Craftsmen" from all the rest.

At this stage of the game, it's easy to identify the Craftsmen.   They still have all ten fingers, intact.    Maybe a few scars, but intact.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 08, 2015, 12:33:39 PM
Chris;

Yours are called "Hex Clecos"; there is a pneumatic tool that looks like a nut driver that is used to install & remove them. A wrench works just as well. These are similar in principle to cylindrical Clecos. Aviation guys have lots of neat little tools that race car guys can take advantage of.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 08, 2015, 08:46:41 PM
Today I cut out part of the fiberglass body just behind the radiator air outlet to give access to the pedals, etc. without having to remove the entire front body. A little air-operated HF body saw did a decent job of it. A 1/4" starting hole was drilled on the cut line for the saw blade. I put #5 self-ejecting Dzus fasteners in the panel; I'll install matching Dzus spring panels in the body next.


I sprayed semi-gloss black paint on the Dzus fasteners, a roof rail, and on two windshield hold-down tabs.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 08, 2015, 08:53:35 PM
Here are two of the windshield tabs. I used Hyloks instead of bolts to attach the tabs to the body since they have a very low profile head. They are designed to be tightened without access to both sides-- there is a hex socket indented in the threaded end so the nut can be tightened without the Hylok twisting around. Maybe you can see this in the photo. I'll use some soft sealant under the tab so that it doesn't stress the windshield. They are hard to come by.  :-(

 Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 08, 2015, 11:15:53 PM
I'm happy you never used a grinder and cutting disc. :-D

Pat Nolan was a neighbor in the early 90s. He was a Mickey Rooney lookalike.
He was 60ish back then. He was on vacation at the coast and went to visit
his friend who was outfitting his new yacht. Pat wanted to help so they gave him a grinder
and let him cut a hole in the galley while they sat on the dock and drank beer. The guy was in shorts
and sandals without a shirt.
He spent the rest of his time on vacation in the hospital. :evil:

Those Hyloks look cool. Never seen them but they must be great. Thanks for educating me.
The next time I see Theo I'll ask him if he has any.

Your build is awesome Neil. :cheers:
Thanks for the pics.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 11, 2015, 08:32:54 PM
I got the side windows installed today. I bonded them in place with black RTV and made hold-down safety tabs to keep them from blowing out due to air pressure. Unlikely, but since the rule book requires them on windshields, I wasn't sure if side windows needed tabs too so I decided that even if they weren't required they are a good thing to have. I'll paint them black tomorrow. To hide the bond line underneath, I painted a black border around each window with artists' acrylic paint.

I was able to install the mounting tabs for the front access panel Dzus fasteners. I misjudged the distance from the edge and almost drilled a #30 hole in my finger.  :x In the picture, the front body is lying on its side against the shop door.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on July 11, 2015, 09:31:28 PM
Neil, when I was a Composites Toolbuilder at MDHC in the early 90s I took a composites course courtesy of the company. In one of the classes the question was asked "Why do you want to back up a panel with something like wood when drilling a hole?". My answer (verbal, I might add). "Because it's not as bloody as using your hand." You couldn't take me anywhere then, either.  :roll:  :cheers: Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on July 11, 2015, 09:42:00 PM
I resemble that remark Wayno, back at the old lazy L, I being a user expert, they sent me to Northrop to demo a cad program we had for wiring diagrams. In the Q and A period I was pointing out it's shortcomings for their application. IT sales never asked me along again.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 12, 2015, 02:10:12 AM
I was able to install the mounting tabs for the front access panel Dzus fasteners. I misjudged the distance from the edge and almost drilled a #30 hole in my finger.  :x In the picture, the front body is lying on its side against the shop door.


My dad once told me, "That's why God gave you ten of 'em".

Conversely, his dad once slammed his thumb with a sledge, which caused a painful blood build up under his nail - which he relieved with a 1/16 drill bit and a Dremel.

Given my family history and propensity to wounding myself, it's a wonder I can still play guitar.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RichFox on July 12, 2015, 11:31:56 AM
When I was at UAL we had monthly safety meetings. There would be a movie, this month it was finger safety. Fingers laying on the table or in the chip tray sort of thing. In my group I had Phillip Wu. Phil had worked in a machine shop in China before coming here. Phil needed both hands to order 4 beers. He had three fingers off one hand and two off the other. So after the movie I said "Phil, you know more about this than any of us. Do you have anything to add?" Phillip looked me in the eye and said "Any man who wok ten year, and have ten finger, F**king off." Shut me up.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 12, 2015, 11:35:06 AM
Chris;

I know how his dad felt. In Basic Training at Ft. Knox, I slammed my M1 down on a concrete wall and caught a sharp rock between it and my fingernail. It formed a big blood blister, too. The medic looked at it and said it looked bad- then took a pair of pliers and pulled the fingernail off....  aarrrggghhhhh.  :-o

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 13, 2015, 03:09:00 AM
Where I come from if you dropped your rifle you got to do 200 push ups. :-o
Nothing hurts like fingers and toes!!!!. :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on July 13, 2015, 09:15:16 AM
a reminder to be careful with 'em  :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 13, 2015, 08:20:45 PM
I'm working on installing my throttle cable right now. After looking at the setup, I realized that I should put in an adjustable stop on the pedal for the throttle return. I fabbed one out of some scrap aluminum I had and riveted on a prevailing torque nut plate for a 10-32 socket head cap screw. This provides a stop against the front of the pedal; it won't see much force- only the pull of the throttle return springs on the other end of the cable. Tomorrow I'll put it in the tub and put in more Adel clamps for routing the cable out of the way of my big feet getting in & out of the car.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 14, 2015, 03:58:01 AM
Excellent idea Neil. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on July 14, 2015, 09:59:47 AM
Neil,

AGAIN,  fantastic attention to detail!!

Where the heck where you when I was wrenching GTP??   Really could have used your fabricating skills . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 14, 2015, 05:38:02 PM
Fordboy,
Whose GTP car did you wrench on? What year?

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 14, 2015, 08:00:48 PM
I got the throttle pedal return stop put in this morning. I think it will work OK.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 14, 2015, 08:07:08 PM
This afternoon I made some skirting to seal the firewall gap. In the photo, one is in place but not drilled or riveted. The far side is just a cardboard template that I used to cut out these pieces; I'm using it to locate two holes that need to be drilled out.

This stuff is Inconel 718-- a high temperature stainless. Cutting it is not easy- neither is drilling holes. I'll probably throw away two #30 cobalt drills before I'm finished with these two pieces.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 15, 2015, 08:37:10 PM
Well, I threw away one #30 high speed drill after only drilling one hole with it. I switched to a cobalt drill and I've now drilled 9 holes with it so far. A HF stepped drill also went into the trash.

After cleaning the pieces with denatured alcohol, I bonded a layer of heat insulation to each piece. The stuff is a woven textile fabric with a layer of aluminum on one side. It looks like tan fiberglass but it is "amorphous silica" fiber that is good to 1800F. The aluminum melts off well below that- it is just for heat reflection. I'll post a picture or two tomorrow.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 15, 2015, 09:21:03 PM
I got the throttle pedal return stop put in this morning. I think it will work OK.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil:

I was looking at your pedals and it looks like they are mounted on the floor. Remember to anti-seize or grease them up a bunch so the salt that falls off of your shoes does not get in the shafts. My brakes and clutch worked fine for speedweek but were frozen solid by the time we towed back to Florida. It took some work and W-D40 to get them working where we could un load it. An aluminum cover might help too.
When I reworked my car in 2013 I hung the pedals to avoid the issue.

Like always the craftsmanship of your build is top notch. Not criticizing just passing on my experience.

Take care,

Bill
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 15, 2015, 10:29:04 PM
Thanks, Bill. I did coat the shaft that the pedals pivot on with Amsoil synthetic grease. I'd prefer to have put in hanging pedals like you have but my car is not very tall (to say the least) so there wasn't room for those- unless my feet were turned around backwards.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 16, 2015, 12:14:44 AM
Neil, there is a lot of quality variance in HSS drills.  The Norseman ones, made here in the US, give good service.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 16, 2015, 11:48:06 AM
Neil, there is a lot of quality variance in HSS drills.  The Norseman ones, made here in the US, give good service.

WW;

It was a good US- made drill, probably Cleveland or similar. I think I let the cutting edge dwell just a fraction of a second too long and it work-hardened the Inconel.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on July 17, 2015, 08:21:21 AM
Fordboy,
Whose GTP car did you wrench on? What year?

Rex

Cooke Racing Lola  1982

Was not a year I want to remember.

F/B
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2015, 08:07:43 PM
The firewall skirts are now fastened in place with Avex countersunk rivets. I used Blue Goo under the skirts to keep out as much salt as possible. In the photo you can see the tabs that the vertical firewall bolts on to. This curves it around a bit and these skirts seal the area that would otherwise be open. When I'm finished I'll seal the cracks with 3M Fire Putty.

I'm working on a couple of brackets to mount the fire bottle nozzles in the engine bay. They will be pointed at the headers & oil pan per the rule book.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on July 18, 2015, 09:14:22 PM
Neil, nice work as usual. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2015, 09:15:56 PM
Thanks, Glen.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2015, 07:22:46 PM
Here are a couple of pictures that show what I'm using as an additional insulation over my firewall. It is a woven fabric of "96% amorphous silica" fiber with a thin aluminum layer bonded onto the fabric. The aluminum reflects radiant heat and the fabric is an insulating layer.

in the picture of the aluminum side, the funny-looking bars are the reflection of the shop fluorescent lights.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2015, 07:35:45 PM
I was somewhat puzzled by how to mount the Safecraft fire suppression spray nozzles in my engine bay. These are automatic systems that go off when the nozzle reaches around 300F so the lines are fully pressurized all the way from the bottle to the nozzle. The strange thing is that there is a jam nut on the threaded section just behind the nozzle. ??? You can't remove the nut without removing the nozzle- which empties the bottle! The Safecraft instructions offer no suggestions whatsoever on how to mount the nozzle.  :?  Am I missing something?

The only thing I could think of was to mount the nozzle in a slot rather than in a hole, so I found a couple of surplus aircraft formed aluminum pieces and drilled a hole which fit the diameter of the threaded section of the nozzle and then carefully cut a slot in each one with a hacksaw. A file dressed the cut edges and it didn't turn out too bad.

I'll post a picture later with the nozzles & brackets bolted into place in the engine bay.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 20, 2015, 09:53:53 PM
Neil:

I have an automatic #10 FireBottle in the trunk area for the fuel cell and batteries. It was my feeling I might not know until a fire was raging behind me. I had to make a slotted tab mount too albeit not as professional as yours. I like the idea that at 325 degrees it will do it's thing back there. I talked to the guys at FireBottle at the time and they said a slotted mount was the only way. Not sure why they don't have an on and off valve at the base of the hose.

The build is looking great.

BR

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on July 20, 2015, 09:54:04 PM
   Neil,
   This summons up another question. Since the system is essentially activated upon installation, the bottles have to be recertified every 2 years and in this case refilled? Is the liquid in the system capable of handling below freezing temps? We were told that our Firefox system could be re-certified three times [6 years] and then the bottles had to be removed from service after that. In your system would the bottles and lines and nozzles have to be removed? They say it's because of possible corrosion that compromizes the components.
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2015, 10:15:17 PM
BR;

You'd think that Safecraft would mention the slotted mount in their installation instructions. As I learned from a Porsche years ago, in a rear-engine car you are the last one to know you're on fire! Actually, Safecraft has developed a bottle valve that can shut off the lines. I think this is intended where the lines must be installed in places that require the lines to be snaked through several bulkheads. Nice, but I'm sure that it is expen$ive.

Doug;

These bottles are filled with either 1211 or FE36- I'd have to go take a look to see which. It is one of the normal Halon sire suppressants that are used in manually-activated systems so I don't see why there would be anything special about these. Re-cert is necessary for any system. I think the aqueous- based systems have a different set of limitations-- corrosion & freezing temps. Thanks for the suggestions.

I installed the nozzles this evening. I still need to safety wire the driver's side mount and make two rectangular pieces of aluminum to make sure that the nozzle can't ever slip out of the slots.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 24, 2015, 08:25:28 PM
I made two little aluminum plates to insure that the nozzles couldn't slip out of the notch and installed them. The backside has lock nuts on each screw. My safety wire job sure could look better!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 25, 2015, 07:13:58 PM
Today I installed two connectors for my ignition box, a Crane HI-6. The big black two-pin connector is a Delphi Weather Pack and the smaller grey one is a 4-pin Deutsch DT04. These are nice to assemble; the pins are crimped or soldered on the end of the wires and then pushed into the rear of the connector until the retainer clicks. They are pretty easy to remove as well. Both types are water-tite.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 27, 2015, 05:55:38 PM
After checking the voltages at the connector pins with a voltmeter when the appropriate switches & circuit breakers were ON, I stripped the end of a wire that Crane calls "points" and made a short wire that I wrapped around the PS92 coil high voltage terminal and bent it close to the mount to simulate a spark plug gap. Plugging in the newly-installed connectors resulted in a red LED indicator on the HI-6, which is normal- so far so good, no smoke, no tripped breakers, so I momentarily touched the "points" wire to ground and voila! A big fat spark! Scraping the wire along ground resulted in a shower of sparks from the "spark plug" and the tach needle moved up scale. YAY    :-D  :-D  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on July 28, 2015, 10:25:29 AM
No smoke is a good thing!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on July 28, 2015, 11:05:51 AM
We hope our smoke test of Ms Liberty will be as successful!!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on August 02, 2015, 11:10:18 PM
Have you made any progress lately Neil?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 03, 2015, 11:11:30 AM
Well since Speedweek was cancelled I have decided to go ahead and go on a little vacation so Joline
 and I are in Albuquerque right now getting ready to head out on Interstate 40 to Nashville to visit Jolene's two sisters so it'll be awhile before I get back to work on the car
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on August 13, 2015, 09:34:11 AM
WOS is right around the corner!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 13, 2015, 10:41:58 AM
True. I'm in Nashville visiting Joline's sisters so I don't know how much time I'll have when I get back to Tucson. It least the car is closer to being finished than it was. WF is coming up, too.

Regards, Neil  (Nashville)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 26, 2015, 07:35:25 PM
Well, Joline and I are back from our trip. We swung down to Big Bend, TX on the way back-- a nice part of the country.

I bought a used DJ Safety fire suit before I left on our trip and it was delivered when we returned. It is a one-piece SFI-20 suit in really good condition but I will need to send it in for re-certification- $132. I'll need a helmet too but I'm hesitant about buying one on line; I'd rather try it on to insure that it fits properly. I doubt that I'll find any dealers in Tucson but Phoenix might be a possibility.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on August 27, 2015, 12:07:47 AM
Glad you made it home safely and hope you had a good time?. :cheers:

I had an offer to go fishing for a week but have more important stuff to do.
I gave my "son" Peter a bunch of salt water lures to try. A hard thing to do being the lure miser that I am
but the kid treats me like gold.  :wink:

Helmets?. Gotta get the best every time and I know you'll do the right thing.
IMO, too many manufacturers meeting the minimum standard.
Let us know how the hunt goes Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 27, 2015, 12:19:43 AM
Fit is a big deal, Neil, and worth more than saving a few $.  There is a Japanese company, I think it is Arai, that makes helmets for odd head shapes.  The bike shops will know.  That is a good brand to try on if none of the other brands fit well. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on August 27, 2015, 08:05:30 AM
  I believe Summit has a showroom in Reno where you can try things on/out. The new spec for 2017 is SA2010, but Another spec will be out I believe in October. SA2015. The good news just keeps on a comin'.
     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on August 27, 2015, 10:25:56 AM
Nashville - I'm jealous.

Last time Kate and I went, we flew in to see George Jones at the Ryman Auditorium, because, for pity's sake, it's GEORGE JONES AT THE RYMAN AUDITORIUM!

Neil, for what it's worth, remember that the helmet needs to fit the CAR as well.

I seem to recall you wearing glasses.  I wear bifocals, so when you try on your helmet, try it in the car, and make sure the bucket doesn't place your head in a way where you can't see the gauges or down the track.  My helmet put my head in a position where I had a lens line in the middle of the horizon that just about drove me nuts.

I ordered up the optional tinted face shield.  You'll be staring almost straight into the sun on the backup run at 8:00 AM. 

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 27, 2015, 08:20:59 PM
Thanks; I'm partial to Bell or Simpson but I'll have to try them on to see if they fit properly.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 27, 2015, 08:33:13 PM
Good advice, Chris. Anything like a top air vent is completely out of the question; there simply isn't enough clearance and I don't like my head rattling up against the top roof panel. When I was taking flying lessons back in the olden days at the Babenhausen Aero Club, their glider canopy was so low that my head was firmly up against it. No fun. The Germans all got a kick out of it, though.

I visited the Ryman a few years ago when Joline and I were there on another visit. It reeks with history- all the old country stars performed there-- back when country was really country.

That reminds me-- have you seen a Clint Eastwood movie called "Honkey Tonk Man"? Another good one is "Tender Mercies" with Robert Duval.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 28, 2015, 01:30:14 AM
The Simpson might be your best bet.  The other brand is made in China now and the one bought a few years back started to fall apart about a year after I bought it.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on August 28, 2015, 08:57:50 AM
I trust you`ve seen this?.... :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 28, 2015, 07:24:27 PM
Good one- thanks.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on August 31, 2015, 09:12:48 PM
I think I may have spent more time in a helmet than most here.
Kinda like a day job from 78 to 87 and then again from 1996 to present
but not as much right now.

I used Bell and GPA in F2.

In 1996 I bought my first Simpson and I'm not knocking the other two
but I won't use anything else. Speed Way Shark T38 and I really tested it.
Long story but I'm still here. :-D.

I like the fit. Sometimes you feel like you're wearing a helmet, like it's there
and it's not hampering but with the Simpson I just seem to forget it's there.
Really worth looking at Neil. :cheers:

That old saying "if you've got a $10 head wear a $10 helmet.
I see guys using bike helmets that are suspect spec wise IMO while racing cars. Not a good idea.
Just my 2C.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 06, 2015, 07:56:46 PM
I started to adjust the valve lash and noticed that the roller tip scrub pattern on the tops of the valves didn't look right. Sure enough, checking Dart's info on my heads, it says to use +.100" longer pushrods. I have those on order now. However, I just did one of the dumbest stunts that I've ever done...

Before I turned the crank around to look at valve lash, I thought I'd pre- lube the engine so I pulled out the distributor and put in a drill- operated shaft that turns the oil pump. To check oil pressure, I made up a short length of -4 line, found adapters to my gauge's 1/4" NPT and filled the wet sump with 4 1/2 quarts of oil. The engine is bolted up to the transaxle, out of the chassis, sitting flat on the wet-sump oil pan bottom, on a piece of corrugated cardboard on the shop floor.

I attached my variable-speed drill to the shaft and pulled the trigger while watching the oil pressure gauge. No oil pressure but it felt like the pump shaft was turning so I increased the RPM. Still no pressure so I ran the drill speed up-- no oil pressure but a big pool of oil was forming on the floor under the engine. I mean a BIG pool- like 3 quarts! WTF???  :?

I moved around to the other side of the engine, the driver's side, and it was immediately apparent why the oil was pumped out onto the floor. The dopey guy operating the drill (me) had forgotten to screw on an oil filter! Duh!  :x  Now I'm cleaning up the mess. How dumb can you get?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ   :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 06, 2015, 08:51:11 PM
Well, half a roll of paper towels later, Joline came home from a trip to town and mentioned that there was a pail of Kitty Litter out in the garage. I carried it over to the shop and put some on the oil; I'll let it absorb overnight. Arrrggghhh.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on September 06, 2015, 09:22:44 PM
Neil,
      You are not alone, I remembered the oil filter but forgot to hook up the oil pressure gauge.

It made a beautiful geyser all over the new paint job.    :oops:


  Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on September 06, 2015, 09:31:03 PM
We could start a club.  :roll: Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on September 07, 2015, 01:06:44 AM
The only way to not screw up is to not do anything.

We've all been there one way or another Neil.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on September 07, 2015, 02:07:06 AM
Remember way back when some guys little light came on and he made up a Flight List !!!

Ain't nothing like paper - pencil and a note pad  ' Priceless '
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on September 07, 2015, 08:15:47 AM
The only way to not screw up is to not do anything.

We've all been there one way or another Neil.

Pete

Neil,

We have all done things like this, either from oversight or overwork.     And we always feel bad or guilty about it, it is just the way responsible guys think.

If the worst thing that happens to your engine is a bit of oil on the floor, well, that's small potatoes.

I've seen guys start engines to bring up oil pressure, and then rev them when the oil pressure did not appear . . . . . .  How smart is that?    Your extraordinary attention to details means you will never be in that club.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on September 07, 2015, 08:42:56 AM
   Neil,  In my drag racing days I built the engine on the stand and put it in the car and went through the drill proceedure and very low oil pressure. Got out of the car and the entire floor was an oil slick. When the engine was built the back of the block was real close to the stand and had made a mental note to install the cam plug when it was removed before putting on the flywheel. So much for mental notes.
     Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2015, 10:11:36 AM
Well. thanks, guys. I feel a little better this morning but I'm not looking forward to scraping up all that Kitty Litter.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 07, 2015, 10:49:43 AM
I'll take kitty litter over a dried up credit card any day.

No biggie Neil. At least we know there's oil in AZ. :cheers:

I'm the world champ at dropping nuts into freshly built engines.

Mazda Rotary peripheral port, Formula Vee and I could go on. :evil:

I'm hoping to relinquish that title this time around. :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2015, 10:10:14 PM
Instead of cleaning things up in the shop, Joline and I drove down to Sonoita for their 100th rodeo. It was a fun day; back to work on the Kitty Litter tomorrow morning.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on September 08, 2015, 12:39:30 AM
Neil, scoop up the oil soaked kitty litter and then spread some more over the affected area. Do a bit of a shuffle over the newly spread kitty litter and it should do a pretty good job of getting the rest of the oil. Some of us have had more experience with oil spills than others.  :-D :-D :evil:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 08, 2015, 08:44:06 AM
I know the forum is a little on the slow side and no hijack intended but I'd love to tell you about my laying down of oil in a race.

I was driving a F2 March 76B at Kyalami (the original circuit) but because the front anti roll bar had cracked the only replacement
was the F1 version. Ken Howes donated the bar but warned that even on the softest setting it would understeer like a SOB so warned me to take care!!!!.
I came from karting, fearless, young and dumb. I went wide into Leeukop, turned in early and let the front end scrub. It was working but as the laps went on I got quicker. I qualified 6th in my first race on a new track but decided to go out for one last attempt to try move up the grid.
I wrote the car off and was out for the season. Non survivable accident, they said. I walked away. Rebuild took from July to January.
New tub, front end etc.
I started last and was up to 12th by lap one in a 23 car field. Next thing I get the black flag. I did nothing wrong and continued.
Eventually they had the flag on a long pole and waved it in my face.

I pull into the pits and the marshals are all over me. I was reported to be leaking oil at every sector. We go over to the car and there's no leak, not a drop, not a sign of oil anywhere. I start the motor for them, got pressure etc but no leaks so I lose the plot in typical  NASCAR fashion and I want to box.


Eventually it all calms down, we load the car and take it home. We go through the routine of putting the car up on stands and stripping. My then mechanic decides to find the leak so he runs the motor and just before he shuts it down he takes it to 8000rpm and here's this syringe type deal of oil coming out of the holed capillary from the oil pressure line spraying oil all over the garage floor. It was so small it never leaked until he leaned on it hard. I was embarrassed but kept the thing in house. We replaced the line and after that the marshals kind of steered clear of us. Funny story but I learned a big lesson. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Ron Gibson on September 08, 2015, 09:27:34 AM
Neil
After you scrape up the kitty litter, put down a little parts solvent, scrub with a brush over the entire spill, let stand for a few minutes, then cover with a thin layer of more litter, good as new. Well almost. :-D Been there, done that.

Ron
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on September 08, 2015, 11:48:30 AM
I use kitty litter -- but sometimes haven't had any handy.  In those cases I've used sand from the beaches of Lake Superior.  It worked just fine, I'm happy to report - and (except for the cost of transportation) it is free.  And disposal is easy, too -- it sweeps up well and goes into the garbage -- of the firepot of the outdoor wood boiler.  There it gets stripped of the oil and provides some (little bit of) heat for the house.  It is mixed in the ashes for when I dump them every few days.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 08, 2015, 11:51:23 AM
Thanks for all your suggestions and stories, guys. I'll get to work on the remaining oil. Fortunately that oil cleans up without penetrating into the concrete floor because of the bright yellow epoxy/urethane floor coating.

Joline and I went flying early yesterday morning before heading down to the Sonoita rodeo. A neighbor invited us to fly up to Marana with him and his wife in his Piper Cherokee. It is a nice low-wing, four-place, all-metal plane with a 4 cylinder engine & fixed-pitch prop. We flew to the Marana Airport, a small strip without a tower, and had breakfast at the restaurant there. We taxied out and started to take off but the engine felt rough so before lift-off, Joe aborted and taxied back around, trying to vary the mixture & throttle to clear up the roughness. It seemed a little better so he took off but the engine wouldn't pull more than 2,000 rpm so we circled back and landed- fortunately without incident. I'll credit Joe with good judgment and a calm response to what could have gotten us on the local TV evening news.

There was an FBO there with an A/C mechanic. He found a cracked exhaust pipe with some oil inside and on the fouled plugs in one cylinder. Losing one cylinder on a four cylinder engine is never a good thing.

Sometimes we dodge the bullet.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 11, 2015, 09:13:48 PM
I got the engine primed with oil and adjusted the valve lash, exhaust= 0.028", intake= 0.026" per Crower cam card. Now that's done.

Since my SBC Donovan block has no provision for a dipstick, I made a sight gauge in the side of my Stef"s deep-draft oil pan so that I could see how much oil it contained. During priming I could see the oil level go way down as I ran the drill to turn the oil pump. Stopping the drill allowed the oil to drain back into the pan and the level came back up. It looks like it sucks about 3" of oil out of the pan, and this is after filling the oil filter (I remembered this time). That is a lot of oil! Has anyone else ever measured this?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on September 11, 2015, 09:38:31 PM
Neal, the valve lash on the cam card is for a "hot" engine. Set it .010/.012 tighter cold and it will be close to right when warm. Use about .008 with an iron block and aluminum heads. But with your aluminum block and heads the .010/.012 number will get you within a couple thousandths of the hot lash.

As for oil level, yes, that's why many of us run dry sumps. Add 1 extra qt of oil to the system AND run an accusump. Only other answer is dry sump.....
 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 12, 2015, 12:14:18 PM
Neal, the valve lash on the cam card is for a "hot" engine. Set it .010/.012 tighter cold and it will be close to right when warm. Use about .008 with an iron block and aluminum heads. But with your aluminum block and heads the .010/.012 number will get you within a couple thousandths of the hot lash.

As for oil level, yes, that's why many of us run dry sumps. Add 1 extra qt of oil to the system AND run an accusump. Only other answer is dry sump.....
 

Thanks for the advice. I knew that the lash spec was for a hot engine but, lacking any other numbers, I decided to set the lash to those figures and re-adjust it when it had been fired up. Aluminum has a higher coefficient of linear expansion than steel so it makes sense that the lash will increase with temperature. I'll re-adjust the lash to your recommendation.

This is only a mild engine for getting the car sorted out. I have another one that is yet to be assembled but is set up for a dry sump. I installed an oil tank in the car already in anticipation of running that engine later.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 12, 2015, 04:20:57 PM
My valve covers are tall cast aluminum ones made by Dart. There is no provision for breathers on the covers or anywhere else on this engine so I needed to add some. In my "stash-o-stuff" I found some filtered vents from "who knows what" that looked ideal for use as breathers. I cut two 2 1/8" holes in the left valve cover so they would fit snugly and then cleaned both breathers & valve covers with denatured alcohol. They are held in place with epoxy. I also drilled & tapped holes in the covers to install an oil splash baffle under each breather.

I'll do the same thing on the right side valve cover but it will have only one breather; I'll cut a 1 7/8" hole for a threaded oil filler.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on September 12, 2015, 04:34:30 PM
Neal, not to be a pain in your arse you should consider some type of baffle under the breathers as oil squirting out of the rocker arms at speed WILL leak out of the breathers.  
I found a couple of pictures on line to give you some ideas. I prefer to weld something into place as opposed to having bolts or nuts inside the engine.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 12, 2015, 05:10:55 PM
I drilled & tapped 10-32 holes in the cover so that I can install oil baffles under each breather in a manner very similar to your first photo. Without baffles, oil would be streaming out of the vents' stainless steel screens. I agree that welding would be best but I think I can retain everything reliably with Loctite Bearing Retainer- the green high strength stuff.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on September 12, 2015, 11:40:14 PM
Neil, are you using drain back screens in the valley? I like them on dry sumps but have got away them in the wet sump applications.
Just out of curiosity, why are you not running the dry sump pump and pan on this engine. The less expensive engine might be a great place to test your entire oiling system. I had done this because I designed and built my own dry sump tank and I had no idea if it was going to work. Actually still don't know. If it works because I haven't run it hard for 6,5 miles.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2015, 02:11:22 PM
No, this engine has no oil drain back screens in the valley. My other dry sump engine does have them; it is out of a sprint car. This is just a mild engine to get the car sorted out; going dry sump on this one seemed an unnecessary complication for what I planed to do with it.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2015, 10:50:15 PM
Well, I was wrong- this block has oil screens, too.

I wondered where all the oil was going as I was priming the oil pump so I removed the intake manifold to have a look. Evidently my oil pump drive adapter has a very poor fit into the distributor hole so the oil was being pumped up into the valley and when I turned off the drill, it drained back into the pan. The oil was accumulating in the valley because the oil was being pumped up faster than it could drain back. Now I'm satisfied that the oil system is OK so I bolted the intake back on.

I had forgotten about the screens but I'm glad they are there; if a needle bearing in a roller lifter disintegrates, the screens will keep most of the debris from draining back into the pan and getting sucked into the oil pump.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on September 15, 2015, 07:08:46 AM
Screens are always a good precaution.

You don't miss them until they are needed, and then it is too late . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on September 15, 2015, 03:48:48 PM
Well, I was wrong- this block has oil screens, too.

I wondered where all the oil was going as I was priming the oil pump so I removed the intake manifold to have a look. Evidently my oil pump drive adapter has a very poor fit into the distributor hole so the oil was being pumped up into the valley and when I turned off the drill, it drained back into the pan. The oil was accumulating in the valley because the oil was being pumped up faster than it could drain back. Now I'm satisfied that the oil system is OK so I bolted the intake back on.

I had forgotten about the screens but I'm glad they are there; if a needle bearing in a roller lifter disintegrates, the screens will keep most of the debris from draining back into the pan and getting sucked into the oil pump.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
If   lifter disintegrates you are likely to notice fairly promptly (still lot of damage but maybe not to the pump)> I my case it was tips off valve springs that by a very tortuous route including through some -6 drain lines from the lifter cover into the pan and then to the dry sump resulted in seized pump-in 2nd gear coming off the line at Bonneville.  I third the motion for screens all over in the drain passages.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on September 16, 2015, 01:53:09 PM
Jack's experience with engine "shrapnel" getting all the way to the dry sump reservoir is the perfect argument for a return line filter, and I mean a real filter not some sort of screen. Large parts of engines that break off and get into the oil system very seldom do direct damage to the engine, they can certainly plug oil holes etc but they are to big to actually get into things like rod bearings, cam bearings or cylinder walls. They can and do make oil pumps fail and if you are lucky it is only a deformation of a couple of teeth in the pump so it will continue to pump but at compromised pressure and volume, usually a big piece of shrapnel will seize the pump and break the drive shaft or belt and at that point real $hit happens. A good return line filter is very cheap insurance for a $10,000++ engine. Ask Buddy Walker why he has one on the Flat Cad.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 16, 2015, 02:23:59 PM
Rex;

I agree, but this is a wet sump engine.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on September 16, 2015, 04:08:51 PM
Neil,
You are correct, it really only works on dry sump applications.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 16, 2015, 04:34:34 PM
I bought a  1 7/8" hole saw at Lowes and cut my right side valve cover to install an oil filler port. Using epoxy to retain it. Who or what "Matrix" is, I haven't a clue. These little tasks seem to have no end.  :x

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 16, 2015, 05:49:53 PM
There are no little tasks on these cars IMO. :-D

The BS just seems to pile up the further you get. :evil:

That Matrix looks good on there Neil. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on September 17, 2015, 10:23:35 AM
Neil...That needs to be turned 180...It`s a "xirtam" :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 17, 2015, 11:58:21 AM
Good one!....instead of 710?    :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on September 17, 2015, 12:02:27 PM
Yes... :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on September 17, 2015, 06:14:53 PM
Just grind it (and the color) off.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 21, 2015, 12:56:58 PM
I made splash shields for the three valve cover breathers that I installed last week. There was some leftover thin Inconel so I cut out pieces large enough to completely cover the breather holes and drilled clearance holes for the 10-32 socket head cap screws. The shields are mounted on stainless spacers so they are 5/8" above the inside surface of the valve covers. The screws are secured with green Loctite.

Don Newell recommended venting in the valley rather than the valve covers but I'll start with these and think about that recommendation for my next engine. His concern is that if a piston is holed, it will push oil out onto the headers and catch fire.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 21, 2015, 06:42:40 PM
A small step this morning- I found two 8mm hex nuts that I didn't know I had and was then able to mount the clutch slave cylinder to the transaxle case. DJ Dafety called and they have finished re-certifying my firesuit. I also had them add a port for CoolShirt tubing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 22, 2015, 10:02:30 PM
My re-certified fire suit arrived this afternoon from DJ Safety. They replaced the arm restraints and added an opening for Cool Shirt tubing.

I decided to add a way to turn the main battery switch on & off from the cockpit as well as having the required external one. I used a threaded rod with a rod end bearing to connect to the actuating arm so I can push & pull the arm and control the battery switch. I found a small bushing and fastened it into a piece of aluminum angle. The knob is made from some surplus crap- painted red.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 23, 2015, 09:38:13 AM
As always Neil. You do a great job!!!!!!. :cheers:

I'd really love to spend time with you.
That would be awesome. :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 30, 2015, 08:53:51 PM
That would be fun, Mike!

While I had my firewall out I saw that the woven silica fabric looked frayed around the edges-- loose fibers hanging out, etc. looking ratty. Joline is a quilter so I took a page out of her book and put a "binding" around the edges to give it a finished look. Somewhere along the line I had obtained a roll of a strange 3M product- a polyester adhesive tape with a coating of metallic gold! Just to check to see if it was a real gold film I checked it with an ohmmeter.

I applied the tape around the edges of the firewall, wrapping it around front & back. Since gold has an extremely high reflectivity in the infrared, it shouldn't get too hot from header radiant heat.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 03, 2015, 03:58:32 PM
The ignition wires I had ordered arrived the other day and I just installed them. They are Taylor "409" plug wires, so named because they are 0.409" diameter (10.4mm) - really big with nice end terminals. My Crane HI-6 specifies a particular plug wire resistance and this 409 wire set meets that spec. Dart recommended Autolite AR 3933 plugs so I bought a set at O'Reilleys for $3.99 ea. I'll start with this heat range and go hotter/colder as needed.

Anyone need 12 new spark plugs for a '60s era Ferrari?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 03, 2015, 08:42:05 PM
The fiberglass front body section is now attached securely. There are two 7/16" Ti bolts securing the nose to the chassis and I just finished bolting & riveting the driver's side rear panel. To increase the shear strength, I riveted an aluminum panel to the fiberglass and used a pattern of twelve 10-32 Ti screws through the aluminum & 'glass into two floating nut plates. These are prevailing torque nuts so no Loctite is needed to prevent loosening. I guess the "BACxxxx" stamped on them stands for "Boeing Aircraft Company" which accounts for their nice quality.
Tomorrow I'll attach the passenger's side.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: MattGuzzetta on October 03, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
Wow, neat stuff!  We used to hang out at Washington Hardware in Los Angeles to get our aircraft surplus parts. You must have a place in AZ similar?  If so where do you get such cool stuff makes me want to take a trip to your area to do some shopping?
Love your build. :-D
Matt Guzzetta
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 03, 2015, 09:06:45 PM
Thanks, Matt. You're too late-- all the good surplus sources here in Tucson have dried up just like they have in CA. I may have even bought some of my stuff at Washington Hardware back in the day. Those were the days!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on October 04, 2015, 02:37:18 AM
Nice work Neil. :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gkabbt on October 04, 2015, 07:45:44 AM

About the aircraft surplus places, I used to go down to a place on, I think, Crenshaw Blvd. in Torrance.
It was near Wilfred Boutilier's Chevron Station and was called Airborne Sales. Really COOL stuff.
Dang, that was 45+ years ago! As the expression goes: Time files when you're having fun!
Thanks for dredging that long lost memory up!  :cheers:

Gregg
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on October 04, 2015, 11:03:40 AM
Cal Nelson Aviation on San Fernando road and Joe Factor sales on Victory Blvd. in Burbank, both had aircraft surplus parts by the ton
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 04, 2015, 01:55:54 PM
Dem wuz da dayz!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on October 04, 2015, 02:32:51 PM
How about Pally surplus in Los Angeles,acres of cool stuff as well as North American aircraft surplus bye LAX.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on October 04, 2015, 10:05:52 PM
We also had Arts Surplus in Van Nuys, I think Factors is still going run by his daughter
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on October 05, 2015, 12:14:05 PM
Last time I looked, G&J Aircraft & Competition was still going strong in Ontario, Calif.  909-986-6534
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on October 05, 2015, 12:25:27 PM
We also had Arts Surplus in Van Nuys, I think Factors is still going run by his daughter
Factor's is at a different location and name http://lukyshardware.com/
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2015, 12:35:08 PM
Thanks- That stuff looks familiar but it is more organized than I remember in the old days.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on October 10, 2015, 08:05:33 PM
I just checked that site.
A guy could get lost in there for a week.
If they don't have it, it probably doesn't exist.

You guys are lucky. The only surplus we have here are illegal immigrants.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 18, 2015, 02:53:12 PM
Since racing seems to be rained out everywhere, I decided to drop the engine & transaxle back in the car and tow it to town for the Tucson Classics Car Show. It was fun to talk to people about LSR and make them aware of the problems with the salt at Bonneville.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 18, 2015, 09:00:07 PM
Looks good, Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 06, 2015, 12:20:07 PM
I finally installed hold-down latches for the passenger-side door. Since it only needs to be opened occasionally, I used two rubber tension latches made by Southco. I made small aluminum plates for reinforcement and riveted them to the fiberglass with 1/8" Avex rivets.

Now I'm working on another small job- making prop- up rods to hold the rear bodywork in the raised up position.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: MattGuzzetta on November 06, 2015, 03:51:07 PM
Ah, Southco, one of the best catalogs of latches and handles!  I used some of their cam latches for some assembly fixtures for making Guitar cases, they can be used as a structural latch you might be able to use at some time, the model is J-R5-0074 in the Southco Catalog.
Looks like you are getting closer and closer to a running machine! :-D

Matt G.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 06, 2015, 05:34:45 PM
Thanks Matt getting there but slowly. Regards, Neil Tucson Arizona
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 16, 2015, 09:50:34 PM
A question for you all-

I noticed that, in addition to a head sock (balaclava), there are "helmet skirts" that may or may not be SCTA legal. Has anyone had experience with those? I wear glasses so I'm a bit apprehensive that even a single eye port head sock might interfere with them. Advice is appreciated.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 16, 2015, 09:54:29 PM
Neil, ventilation is needed around your eyes so your glasses do not fog up. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 16, 2015, 10:20:35 PM
A question for you all-

I noticed that, in addition to a head sock (balaclava), there are "helmet skirts" that may or may not be SCTA legal. Has anyone had experience with those? I wear glasses so I'm a bit apprehensive that even a single eye port head sock might interfere with them. Advice is appreciated.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil, I used a helmet skirt for a few years but I drove open cockpit cars.
NHRA drivers use them.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on December 17, 2015, 03:36:43 PM
Neil,
I have suggested this before for guys that wear glasses and have fogging problem. Coat the inside and outside of the lens with a good liquid soap let the sit for several minutes and then using a fabric towel polish them until they are completely clear. They will not fog up, usually last about a day if you wear them all day. Works on goggles also. I did this when I raced motorcycles in the So. Cal desert, had glasses and goggles and it was the only thing that worked well. Also works on the inside of the windshield. I still do it when hunting in the cool fall mornings in AZ.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 18, 2015, 07:32:44 PM
Thanks to everyone for the valuable advice. I just ordered a Simpson SA2015 helmet. I used some anti-fogging compound on the inside of my diving mask years ago- it worked.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 28, 2015, 05:27:20 PM
After a lot of thought I decided to get my engine fired up the first time with a carburetor rather than the Crower mechanical fuel injection system. It seems easier and more straightforward to get a Holley 850 double-pumper set up correctly than the MFI. This will allow me to test the car with fewer problems (hopefully) in the initial testing phase.

I have an Edelbrock 4+4 intake manifold for it. This is a relatively little-known manifold but it flows well, according to Edelbrock. It is a large single-plane very similar to a Victor E. They recommend a 2" spacer for optimum results.

Comments are welcome..........

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on December 28, 2015, 07:09:02 PM
Neil,
re helmet;
     I have used both a helmet skirt and a balaclava. I prefer the head sock because it keeps my ears from folding down when I pull on the helmet.

re injector;
     I prefer my MFI constant leak system over a carb. With Hillborn specifying pump sizing and nozzles all I could mess up was the bypass jet and they told me where to start with that.
Jim
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jimmy six on December 28, 2015, 09:10:37 PM
Depending on your vehicle you may need to wear both. In my roadster I do. The problem is not foggy glasses or helmet shield but dust. I have forced air to the helmet at the side and comes in the helmet right under the eyes. I wear the skirt to keep the dust from coming up under my chin area and forming a cloud between my glasses and the helmet shield. I can alway see the finish line but with out both its tough to see the gauges I like  to glance at... Good Luck.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on December 29, 2015, 12:21:46 AM
Neil, the injection is dead simple. It's way more simple than the carburetor and will come properly set up if you ordered it for your engine.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on December 29, 2015, 03:23:23 AM
Neil,

Mechanical fuel injection system are stone simple.   BUT, on timed injection, the fuel curve cam needs to be the proper one for your engine application.   If you gave Crower the all the correct info about your engine, then it is a matter of fine tuning only a few adjustments.

Did Crower ever produce any timed injection systems?    Or were they all constant flow?    Fine tuning differs between the 2 types.    It goes without saying that the components need to be properly sized for a particular application.

My understanding is that Crower sold the Fuel Injection Division to Ron's Racing back in 1990.   I'm unsure which systems are currently being serviced.

Sorry this isn't more helpful.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2015, 11:02:19 AM
Thanks for the replies. I know that the MFI is relatively simple in principle but there is more to it in practice- getting the pump mounted, pulleys aligned, shut-off valve installed & cable run to it, filters mounted & plumbed, return lines & bypass plumbed, etc. Carb is simpler but I intend to run it temporarily and then revert to MFI when the car is sorted out.

As far as I know Crower only produced constant-flow systems; Lucas was the most popular MFI back in the Can-Am heyday. I've dropped in on Ron's (here in Tucson) but they are less than helpful.

Dust is something I had not considered before. All good information on this forum!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 29, 2015, 01:07:30 PM
Neil, the big factor in choosing MFI, EFI, or carb might be the your expertise, the cost, availability, and convenience of the professional help you need to get the system working right.  Using my situation as an example, I am good with carbs and can do field repair and tuning.  No so with the injection systems.  Also, I get a discounted hourly rate for dyno work from a shop that has a lot of experience tuning race carbs, not much at EFI mapping, and no experience with MFI.  That mirrors my experience, too.  The EFI mapping work requires me to pay full rate at another shop and I am at a disadvantage if I have problems in the field.

The decision was easy.  It was to go with a system I know and can get good results with vs working with another system I most certainly will have problems with.  My son, Josef, is the opposite.  He knows EFI real well and carbs are sort of a mystery to him.

 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2015, 05:52:40 PM
This afternoon I raised the car up on jackstands so that I can get under the chassis to finish the wiring to the starter & solenoid. While I was lying down on the floor I took a couple of pictures that show the stressed aluminum panels on the bottom of the chassis. Lotsa rivets- glad that's done! Whew!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2015, 05:54:17 PM
Photos:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2015, 05:57:57 PM
Two more-
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on December 29, 2015, 06:48:48 PM
Neil,
Don't know what your color choice is but that black really makes it look "Darth Vader" mean.

Looking Good!!!!

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2015, 07:30:07 PM
Thanks, Rex. I think I'll keep the black gel coat. I kind of like the sinister look.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ratpatrol66 on December 29, 2015, 09:02:31 PM
Sweet looking car!!!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on December 30, 2015, 05:21:14 AM
Neil,

Luv the car and your quality standards of work.

Also luv the cleanliness and organization of your shop.

My garage still looks like a goat exploded in it.   Ah well, someday soon, I'm chippin' away at it.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on December 30, 2015, 09:12:27 AM

Also luv the cleanliness and organization of your shop.


I was just going to say, it looks a lot different from the last time I was there Neil.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 03, 2016, 07:41:31 AM
Neil,

Luv the car and your quality standards of work.

Also luv the cleanliness and organization of your shop.

My garage still looks like a goat exploded in it.   Ah well, someday soon, I'm chippin' away at it.

 :cheers:
Fordboy

Mark, I had a friend come by and help me tidy up my shop!!!!.

Since then I can't find S%$*t. :evil:
In all the chaos before I knew where everything was but now????? :-P
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Ron Gibson on January 03, 2016, 10:22:41 AM
Mike
Not trying to be the bearer of bad news but being able to know exactly where things are in the clutter will go away with age.  Ask how I know.  :-( :-(
I tell my friends that I have a bigger tool box than theirs, mine is 35' X 45' and I find stuff that I forgot I had all the time. My favorite is to buy an assortment of O-rings or something else, then discover I already have one.
Keep up the fabulous work. The car is looking great.

Neil
when I saw the picture I wondered what the smooth stuff the car was sitting on was. :-D :-D

Ron
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 03, 2016, 10:30:05 AM
Sorry for the hijack, but isn't that how everyone gets four or five of most bits in the shop?

Ron Gibson said:  "...My favorite is to buy an assortment of O-rings or something else, then discover I already have one."

 :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 03, 2016, 11:25:27 AM
Jon, I hope Neil doesn't boot us all in the O ring for jacking his thread????? :-D :lol:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on January 04, 2016, 12:47:43 AM
Neil,

Luv the car and your quality standards of work.

Also luv the cleanliness and organization of your shop.

My garage still looks like a goat exploded in it.   Ah well, someday soon, I'm chippin' away at it.

 :cheers:
Fordboy

Mark, I had a friend come by and help me tidy up my shop!!!!.

Since then I can't find S%$*t. :evil:
In all the chaos before I knew where everything was but now????? :-P

I suffer from "organizational chaos" as well.    But I can get things done and can find what I am looking for.   Which is why I do not allow anyone to "help" me to re-organize.

The real problem is too many projects for too many people.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 04, 2016, 10:39:09 AM
The biggest "problems" with cleaning up and re-organizing the shop start when the one "helping" is the wife.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 04, 2016, 10:50:04 AM
She's a keeper Neil!!!!! :-D

Judging by the state of your work area she must be special.

I won't let my missus help. I have to wear a mask and protective gear when I sweep.
Carbon dust!!!!!!.  :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Freud on January 04, 2016, 01:03:25 PM
Mike, apparently you are able to find the mask sometimes.

FREUD
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 04, 2016, 07:39:54 PM
She's a keeper Neil!!!!! :-D

Judging by the state of your work area she must be special.

I won't let my missus help. I have to wear a mask and protective gear when I sweep.
Carbon dust!!!!!!.  :-D :-D :-D

That is for sure, Mike.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on January 05, 2016, 10:23:51 AM
Washer/dryer are in the laundry room....No reason for the bride to be in the shop. ( No, Mrs. Floydjer is not reading over my shoulder) :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 05, 2016, 12:05:29 PM
Washer/dryer are in the laundry room....No reason for the bride to be in the shop. ( No, Mrs. Floydjer is not reading over my shoulder) :cheers:

Thin ice man, thin ice...
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 27, 2016, 04:53:55 PM
I'm finishing up the coolant plumbing. I needed to run a small line from the inlet side of the water pump to my radiator vent tank so I ordered a beaded aluminum tube with a 1/4 NPT fitting welded into the middle for that connection from Speedway Motors. To fit into the space available, I had to cut about 1" off each end and re-beaded it. The silicone hose was also cut about 1" shorter. I heat-shrunk a Gates Power Grip clamp over these connections but, since the assembly needs to be removable, I have to use T-bolt clamps on the other ends.

I really like these Gates clamps.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 27, 2016, 05:09:35 PM
Since I've decided to remove the MFI manifold temporarily until I get things sorted out with a Holley 850 double pumper, I needed to get a 7psi electric fuel pump. After looking at a bunch of fuel pumps, I bought a Carter pump; I used a smaller version on a Sable sports racer that I built back in the late '60s-'70s. I like the design of the Carter electric pumps- they are rotary pumps with built-in relief valves so the fuel pressure is constant without an external regulator.

Since it is a flooded motor design, the motor needs to be mounted below the pump. It appears that it is mounted "upside down" but that is the correct way Carter says to mount it. The picture shows it mounted on an aluminum plate that I made to fasten to a couple of chassis tubes. The whole thing is turned over to attach the wiring. For a little extra bit of safety, I put some meltable inner wall heat shrink tubing over the exposed 12V terminal.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 28, 2016, 12:11:12 AM
Neil, you do such neat work.
Those pipes look good.
I built something similar but I have a filler cap where you have the valve.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 09, 2016, 03:30:13 PM
Well, #*^%*$@!

I need to remove the water pump pulley that I have installed now and replace it with a different one that will line up better with the crank pulley. Sure enough, the pulley won't come off-- there is a chassis tube in the way. I can't cut that tube because it is one that attaches my safety harness. I tried pulling the water pump bolts out and sliding it sideways but it won't go far enough to get the pulley off. Arrrggghhh.

It looks like I'll have to lift up or lower down the engine a little to remove the pulley and install the new one. Dodge!!!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on February 09, 2016, 05:36:57 PM
If you cut away the offending pulley, would there be enough room to install the new one without having to pull the engine?  :roll:

I feel for you, Neil.  Still working on the Frankensprite, and realized after the engine was installed that the only way the starter could be fitted was to pull the engine . . . and the radiator . . . and the carburetor . . . and the header . . and the steering shaft . . . and the shift lever . . . and the bonnet . . . and the oil lines . . .  :|

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on February 09, 2016, 05:46:30 PM
I worked with a guy on Indy cars that had worked for Team McLaren both in Can-Am and Indy cars. He always said if you were buying a used Can-Am McLaren you were much better off buying an ex team car. Apparently Trojan built all the bare chassis but then the team got the bare chassis and built then up from there while the customer cars were all put together by Trojan. The advantage of the team cars were they were all put together by the mechanics who had to work on them and everything was assembled for ease of repair and maintenance while the customer cars were put together in the quickest way possible.

Neil, We usually refer to what you're going through as experience. We've all been there. Forethought never seems to be 100%.  :x :x :roll:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 09, 2016, 10:18:08 PM
Chris;

Unfortunately the new 2-groove pulley is only slightly smaller than the one that's on there now. I'd sacrifice that thing in a minute if that solved the problem! This is one problem that is peculiar to a mid-engine configuration- the cockpit rear bulkhead is right ahead of the pulleys. At least my starter is easily accessible.  :-D

Pete;

Anyone who buys a race car without taking it apart and reassembling it is asking for trouble. We tore Bob Peckham's M8C apart every 2nd race and inspected everything for wear & cracks. That's one reason we never had a DNF.

It wasn't forethought-- I wasn't thinking at all.  :-(

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on February 09, 2016, 10:31:27 PM
The teardown and reassembly should definitely be part of routine maintenance. The advantage of the team mechanics putting the car together was that they got to mount all the ancillaries where they wanted and they could modify the chassis where they wanted.

Even back in 1979 we were required to provide fresh magnaflux for the suspension and crack tests for the wheels before every 500 mile race.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 09, 2016, 10:33:00 PM
I was lucky enough to be able to pull the Mazda Rotary in about 35 minutes.
Easier than trying to remove individual components. Mid engine projects can be
a big problem. We had 4 bolts and you'd get the engine and gearbox off the chassis.
Neil you're right about stripping and reassembling a bought car. The guy I bought my first F2
car from took off all the "good stuff" before delivery. :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 12, 2016, 07:01:32 PM
All of the push-lock fittings & hose have now been delivered and now I have made a few hoses for my fuel system. The fuel is drawn from a pickup in the fuel cell, through a large filter into the Carter electric fuel pump. Out of the pump it passes through a 10u filter and into a fuel log. Here is the filter setup; they are mounted on a removable aluminum panel near the right side of the engine.

These filters are big so there should be little pressure drop across them.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 13, 2016, 01:32:48 AM
Good quality components there Neil and beautifully assembled.

Pro job as expected!!! :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on February 13, 2016, 10:27:48 PM
Peter Jack

Another plus buying a ex team car was they was full of ' Trick Bits ' they had made during the year, that the factory car did not have so you would be a year ahead of the other guys buying the factory race cars
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on February 13, 2016, 11:10:05 PM
Peter Jack

Another plus buying a ex team car was they was full of ' Trick Bits ' they had made during the year, that the factory car did not have so you would be a year ahead of the other guys buying the factory race cars

That was so true. We were spoiled to live through that era. Racing has never been so good as when Can Am, Trans Am and Formula 5000 were at their peak. Pro racing was almost affordable and the competition was first class.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 15, 2016, 07:10:53 PM
I had some openings into the cockpit from the front wheel wells that needed to be closed; otherwise a dust or salt storm would occur at speed. I cut out templates from light cardboard and transferred those to 1/8" plastic sheet. This stuff is polyethylene, used on sprint cars for body panels, etc. It is waterproof, resists rocks, is available in may colors, and is cheap- about $2 a foot in rolls.

I found that aviation tin snips were good tools to cut it and a heat gun allowed it to be formed a little. It drills easily and self-tapping screws make it easy to remove when necessary. I used some yellow plastic to match my chassis color and some black to match my body gelcoat.

It's a little hard to see what's what in this picture but since the front right brake disk is visible it may make sense.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on February 15, 2016, 07:43:24 PM
I absolutely hate seeing screws of any sort used on a race car. Sooner or later one of them inevitably ends up in someone's expensive tire. In an application like that I'd use cheap hardware store aluminum pop rivets. They're easy to drill out and replace and they hold just fine in that sort of application. JMOHO  :-D :-D :-D

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on February 15, 2016, 07:44:58 PM
The people who "sweep" the course from time to time at Bonneville or El Mirage constantly find self tapping screws on the track. A few competitors find them in there really expensive AND sometimes hard to get LSR tires. If you can use rivets or some other semi-permanent fastener your fellow racers would appreciate it, no matter who's car its on.

 :cheers:    
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on February 15, 2016, 07:46:08 PM
PJ beat me too it... Enough said.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 15, 2016, 08:26:41 PM
Good point, guys-- I'll replace them with rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on February 16, 2016, 08:47:13 AM
When I built my 37' gasser in 61' I used #4 machine screws - nuts and lock washers to hold the alum firewall etc together, at 22 yrs old and my first car I thought it would be fine [ like they say I learned the hard way ]

Well after the first day half of the screws were gone, and like the other guy said in went the pop-rivets and not a one ever came out

With the engine mounted solid lots of ' Cool Vibes ' going on that you don't think about till after things happen

DND
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on February 16, 2016, 08:55:55 AM
When I built my 37' gasser I used #4 machine screws - nuts and lock washers to hold the alum firewall etc together, at 22 yrs old and my first car I thought it would be fine [ like they say I learned the hard way ]

Well after the first day half of the screws were gone, and like the other guy said in went the pop-rivets and not a one ever came out

With the engine mounted solid lots of ' Cool Vibes ' going on that you don't think about till after things happen

DND

It's why airplanes are riveted (and bonded . . . ) together for most structure(s).

I won't use "lock washers" or self tapping screws anymore.    Not even for the trailer . . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 16, 2016, 02:50:32 PM
Good point, guys-- I'll replace them with rivets.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Would those be peel rivets Neil?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 16, 2016, 02:58:06 PM
This calls for my favorite "sheet metal screw" story! (Neil, sorry to hyjack your build) In 1982 while working for Interscope racing Fred (Ted Field, team owner, driver and a multi-multi millionaire) bought a Kremer Brothers K-4 935 Porsche, aluminum tube frame (welded together by someone that knew nothing about welding!) and it had "ground effect" tunnels that were made from about 20 ga. aluminum sheet and a million sheet metal screws! The first time we were ever going to run it was in testing at Road Atlanta. DO (Danny Ongais) took one look at all of the sheet metal screws, called the truck driver over and told him to go to town and get several hundred 10-32 screws and nylock nuts. He said he would go out and make a couple of laps to shake the sheet metal screws out and then we could go about making the fix. He was exactly right, 2-3 laps and when he came back in most of the screws were gone! We spent the next few hours drilling out the screw holes and installing the 10-32s and lock nuts. And that is just one of the many sorted stories of the K-4, never raced it, what a POS!!!

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on February 16, 2016, 03:34:26 PM
This calls for my favorite "sheet metal screw" story! (Neil, sorry to hyjack your build) In 1982 while working for Interscope racing Fred (Ted Field, team owner, driver and a multi-multi millionaire) bought a Kremer Brothers K-4 935 Porsche, aluminum tube frame (welded together by someone that knew nothing about welding!) and it had "ground effect" tunnels that were made from about 20 ga. aluminum sheet and a million sheet metal screws! The first time we were ever going to run it was in testing at Road Atlanta. DO (Danny Ongais) took one look at all of the sheet metal screws, called the truck driver over and told him to go to town and get several hundred 10-32 screws and nylock nuts. He said he would go out and make a couple of laps to shake the sheet metal screws out and then we could go about making the fix. He was exactly right, 2-3 laps and when he came back in most of the screws were gone! We spent the next few hours drilling out the screw holes and installing the 10-32s and lock nuts. And that is just one of the many sorted stories of the K-4, never raced it, what a POS!!!

Rex

Rex,

In '82 I was at Cooke's.   Heard a lot of stories about Ted's 935 K-4.    I had not heard that one.

ROTFLMAO

Sometime, in person, I'll trade you Ralph stories for Ted stories.   I'll bet I can make you buy . . . . . .

Neil,

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 16, 2016, 06:53:06 PM
Fordboy said "Sometime, in person, I'll trade you Ralph stories for Ted stories.   I'll bet I can make you buy . . . ."

That is a DEAL!!!! Better yet I will bring a bottle of tequila, ice and some mix and a bunch of Red Solo cups over to the Midget''s pit at the next Bonneville race and we can drink it up and tell all of the great stories!!

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on February 16, 2016, 07:35:35 PM
Fordboy said "Sometime, in person, I'll trade you Ralph stories for Ted stories.   I'll bet I can make you buy . . . ."

That is a DEAL!!!! Better yet I will bring a bottle of tequila, ice and some mix and a bunch of Red Solo cups over to the Midget''s pit at the next Bonneville race and we can drink it up and tell all of the great stories!!

Rex

I'll bring chips and salsa if I can eavesdrop.   :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Glen on February 16, 2016, 08:29:01 PM
I have a few stories as well after 20 years in the timing stand, both lakes and on the salt.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on February 16, 2016, 10:24:16 PM
For the life of me I don't know why one of the trick automotive writers has not done a series of books on the ' Greatest Racing Story's '

As there is a never ending supply of them !!!

Just seems like a natural to me as we all have our favorite ones

DND
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 17, 2016, 12:08:16 AM
I got lost at Tequila!!!. Now I'm done for the day :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 17, 2016, 12:37:44 AM
Mike, tequila is a clear vodka like booze made from fermented cactus.  In the old days there was a grub worm in the bottom of the bottle.  Of course, after you drank all of the bottle it was no big deal to swallow the worm.   
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 17, 2016, 01:11:11 AM
I know worms called Jose, Xavier, Pedro et al. I am without doubt the tequila champion on this forum. :evil:
I even had a Moslem guy bring me a bottle from Mexico City. :cheers: :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on February 17, 2016, 07:30:06 AM
Fordboy said "Sometime, in person, I'll trade you Ralph stories for Ted stories.   I'll bet I can make you buy . . . ."

That is a DEAL!!!! Better yet I will bring a bottle of tequila, ice and some mix and a bunch of Red Solo cups over to the Midget''s pit at the next Bonneville race and we can drink it up and tell all of the great stories!!

Rex

Rex!!

This is so ON!!!    This is on my "bucket list".     I love the way tequila "helps" my memory.


I'll bring chips and salsa if I can eavesdrop.   :-D


Any and all will be welcome.   Who is in for the guacamole?

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on February 17, 2016, 11:34:53 AM
FB said:   "...Who is in for the guacamole?"

I didn't know we could talk about stuff like that on this forum.  If you wanna -- go ahead, I'll just make sure the filters know what to expect. :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 17, 2016, 01:41:26 PM
It's starting to sound like a party at the Midget pits. We'll do it right after the Midget goes 135!!! (Or not)

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 18, 2016, 01:12:24 AM
You guys are kiillling me. :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Kiwi Paul on February 19, 2016, 12:38:49 AM
Hey Mike...Don`t worry, when the `Salt Story Summit` gets a formal schedule, I`ll just swing by and pick you up....... :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 19, 2016, 02:00:47 AM
I'm ready brother.
How cool would that be???. :cheers: :-o :-o
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 19, 2016, 04:21:07 PM
I've exhausted all my ideas about getting the water pump pulley off; I tried unbolting it from the WP flange, unbolting the WP itself and moving everything around but it just won't come off.  :x  I managed to install the crank pulley on the damper but the WP pulley is an underdrive so it is a larger than stock diameter and the two pulley flanges interfere by about 1/8".

I've now thrown in the towel and am getting ready to pull the engine & transaxle out. At least then I'll have easy access to the front of the engine and I can install two V-belts on the pulleys.

As Miss Emily Latella used to say on SNL, "It's always something"

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on February 19, 2016, 07:32:28 PM
Neil, all I can say is that sucks.

Yes - 2 V belts.  Redundancy is this situation is to be encouraged.

Know that if this is the biggest misstep, you're still way ahead of the rest of us.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: hotrod on February 19, 2016, 07:43:55 PM
Any chance you can get in there with a grinder and put a couple strategically located notches in the pulley flanges so you can get them to clear each other if you put them in just the right position?

By your discription an 1/8 inch over lap means two 1/16 inch notches in the flanges matched up will get you the clearance you need.

One of those align slot A with notch B while standing on your left foot sort of solutions but could be a lot easier than pulling the car apart.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 19, 2016, 07:47:35 PM
Lousy one Neil. :evil:
Not a fun job just to get some belts on.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 19, 2016, 08:12:07 PM
Unfortunately, Hotrod, I'd have to grind off at least 1/8" off one pulley flange-- but for 360 degrees; completely around the circumference.

Today I removed the starter, headers, and all the mounting bolts but 4 and those are ready to be slid out when I pick up the weight of the engine & transaxle. Fortunately my approach to the rear chassis was to make a removable top framework that allows the engine and transaxle to be lifted as one unit straight up to clear the chassis and then swung over onto the floor or whatever. The ignition box, etc. has connectors that unplug from a wire harness so that makes it easier, too.

After both pulleys are bolted on I can measure the length of V-belts that I'll need. I'll try to find appropriate size Gates, Dayco, or Goodyear belts. Those brands should not stretch out like a rubber band- unlike some el cheapo belts.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on February 21, 2016, 04:27:08 AM
Hi Neil

When building the SBC for the Can-Am stuff we used two steel factory pulleys for two belts

Had to lower the alum pump body by about 1/16 of a inch so the belts would not be too tight

Clamp the body down flat on its back and use an end mill and elongate the 4 mounting holes

Those two pulleys cleared each other by about 1/16 " when bolted up tight, belt's never slipped on came off and worked like a charm

Why not just use a toothed belt set up as it is so much easer to get the right belts and pulleys, not enough room maybe?

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on February 21, 2016, 08:36:14 AM
Why not just use a toothed belt set up as it is so much easer to get the right belts and pulleys, not enough room maybe?

Don

Neil,

Weaver Bros has off the shelf gilmer belt drive sets for Chevy water pumps in various under/over drive ratios.   They may have V-belt pulleys in alternate ratios as well.

No idea on cost.   Give them a call.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 21, 2016, 11:53:38 AM
Don & Fordboy;

Thanks for those suggestions but, since I'm already pulling the engine & transaxle up about a foot out of the chassis to get to the water pump, I'll continue with the v-belt pulleys. If I run into problems I'll give Weaver a call.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 21, 2016, 07:30:06 PM
Pulling an engine & transaxle by yourself is no fun but it's now out far enough to remove the water pump and pulley.

I'll attach a picture of the pulley that was causing problems- it's huge, 7 3/4" diameter. I'm replacing it with an aluminum 2-groove v-belt pulley that is stock diameter, 6 1/2". The water pump is an Edelbrock 8819 with a 3/4" snout so I had to ream the new pulley to fit since it was originally 1/2". A 1/8" shim on the crank pulley lined up both nicely. I measured around the outside of both pulleys to find out the length of fan belt needed. I measured 35"- does this sound right?

I fabricated the cradle in this photo to support the top rear of the Porsche G50 transaxle (left) and the rear of the engine (right). It makes it possible to remove both without separating the two. There are other engine mounts as well directly on the chassis tubes.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on February 21, 2016, 08:50:14 PM
Neil you cant go by the O.D. of the pulleys as the groves are not the same far a how deep the belts set into them

Like I was saying I used to lower the pump so the belts would not be too tight

You will have to buy a set that you think is right and swap different sizes till you get the right combo

Try to find a local parts guy that will let try different ones and pay him for the two that fight while returning the other ones

You will have to use the 4 bolts to suck the pump up to the block for the final size check, as this will take a bit of time to get it right

Make a cardboard template from your front motor plate to the back panel of the engine bay, then you will know how much room you have and give Weaver's a call for a toothed set up

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 21, 2016, 09:01:50 PM
Don;

V-belt sizing is one of the most confusing things I've encountered in some time.

I did find a listing for a Dayco Top Cog #15345 which is spec'ed at 35.07" outside length, effective length 34.5" and 0.44" wide. We'll see if this works.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on February 21, 2016, 10:43:55 PM
Neil, it's the pest again...

The reason the pulley is so large on the water pump is to SLOW it down. I know this seems obvious but the water pump can cavitate at 4000+ PUMP rpm. So the large pulley will allow the water pump to operate in it's correct speed range with the engine running at say 7500 rpm for 5 miles.
As to Don's point about slotting the bolt holes allowing the pump to be shifted to keep the belts from being too tight is a smart idea. You should consider this as you already have the engine out of the car.
We had a access panel behind the drivers seat on one car to allow us to get to the belts or what ever if needed. Again the engine is out of the car, might be a good time to look at it.
Here is a picture of the water pump on my modified roadster. You car see the jack screws that let me adjust the belt tension as needed.

Good Luck on your project.  :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 22, 2016, 10:56:32 AM
Mike;

That is a very nice looking powerplant!  :cheers:

Yes, my original one was an underdrive pulley (12% with a stock crank pulley) but I may not need to go to an underdrive. My water pump is an Edelbrock 8819 which is a pump designed for sprint cars, not for street applications. It has an impeller that is designed for high RPM.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/water-pumps/competition.shtml

Slotting the pump mounting holes is a good idea. I'll open up the holes into short slots.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DND on February 22, 2016, 05:55:47 PM
Neil I forgot to say that when you get the two belts on tight, push in at the center where the belts are not touching the pulleys one at a time and see how stiff they are

That will let you know if they both have the same tension, if one is stiffer make a change so they are both equal

If not one is doing all the work , the other one is just going along for the ride

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 22, 2016, 07:21:56 PM
I'll check it- thanks Don.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 05, 2016, 04:49:20 PM
Sometimes the simplest job turns into a can of worms. That is the case of getting my water pump mounted-
1. The upper pulley (pump) did not line up with the crank pulley.
2. Bought shims for the crank pulley to fix the problem.
3. Wrong- needed shims for the WP pulley instead so bought those.
4. Upper pulley too big- interferes with lower pulley. Order smaller WP pulley.
    4a. Large pulley won't come off the WP shaft- too close to firewall & cage structure.
    4b. Remove WP bolts to slide WP sideways to get more clearance. Still won't work.
    4c. Pull out engine & transaxle mounting bolts, lift & move back. Eureka!
5. Install smaller WP pulley with a few shims- perfect. Now I need two V-belts.
6. Researched size belts needed- no information anywhere. No one agrees on how to measure v-belts. Measured around OD of pulleys with a tape measure: 35".
7. Called Speedway Motors & ordered a set of 1:1 belts. Way too small- returned them.
8. More research turned up a Gates belt that might fit: XL 7345. Bought one locally.
9. Tried fitting belt on pulleys- a little bit too loose but close. Returned it & bought one 1 size smaller: XL 7340.
10. Installed belt on pulleys- a very good fit. Need one more belt and I ruined the old WP to block gaskets.
11. Bought a second Gates XL 7340 and a pair of Fel-Pro 5152 gaskets. Researched Fel-Pro to find out if they recommended using any sealer on them. Lousy Fel-Pro website but finally found that they recommended installing their gaskets dry.
12. Installed gaskets & belts. Correct belt tension in both belts. Gates says these are "34 inch" belts.
13. Original crank pulley/damper bolt now too short for the aluminum crank pulley. Found longer SPS socket head cap screw but it was about 1/2" too long.
14. Used a cut-off wheel to shorten bolt; dressed cut end & torqued bolt into place.

There you have it; a simple job that should have taken less than an afternoon became a saga.  :x

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on March 05, 2016, 05:07:03 PM
Sometimes the simplest job turns into a can of worms. That is the case of getting my water pump mounted-
1. The upper pulley (pump) did not line up with the crank pulley.
2. Bought shims for the crank pulley to fix the problem.
3. Wrong- needed shims for the WP pulley instead so bought those.
4. Upper pulley too big- interferes with lower pulley. Order smaller WP pulley.
    4a. Large pulley won't come off the WP shaft- too close to firewall & cage structure.
    4b. Remove WP bolts to slide WP sideways to get more clearance. Still won't work.
    4c. Pull out engine & transaxle mounting bolts, lift & move back. Eureka!
5. Install smaller WP pulley with a few shims- perfect. Now I need two V-belts.
6. Researched size belts needed- no information anywhere. No one agrees on how to measure v-belts. Measured around OD of pulleys with a tape measure: 35".
7. Called Speedway Motors & ordered a set of 1:1 belts. Way too small- returned them.
8. More research turned up a Gates belt that might fit: XL 7345. Bought one locally.
9. Tried fitting belt on pulleys- a little bit too loose but close. Returned it & bought one 1 size smaller: XL 7340.
10. Installed belt on pulleys- a very good fit. Need one more belt and I ruined the old WP to block gaskets.
11. Bought a second Gates XL 7340 and a pair of Fel-Pro 5152 gaskets. Researched Fel-Pro to find out if they recommended using any sealer on them. Lousy Fel-Pro website but finally found that they recommended installing their gaskets dry.
12. Installed gaskets & belts. Correct belt tension in both belts. Gates says these are "34 inch" belts.
13. Original crank pulley/damper bolt now too short for the aluminum crank pulley. Found longer SPS socket head cap screw but it was about 1/2" too long.
14. Used a cut-off wheel to shorten bolt; dressed cut end & torqued bolt into place.

There you have it; a simple job that should have taken less than an afternoon became a saga.  :x

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,

That's always the way . . . . . . .  certain "simple" things, become a "cascading nightmare" . . . . . .



Speaking of afternoon adventures, back a few weeks ago . . . . . .

Mrs. Fordboy 
"I don't understand why it took you the whole afternoon to fix one kitchen cabinet drawer."

Fordboy
"I'd explain it, but you wouldn't believe me anyway.   Think I'll have a helium beer . . . . . ."

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 05, 2016, 11:11:19 PM
Neil, I feel for you.
That was a nightmare for sure.
Happy to hear you finally found solutions. :cheers:

You water pump pulley looks a lot like one I have
on one of my Ford motors. Locally manufactured by
the late Ivor Pringle in 2000. He did beautiful work.
I'll take a photo and post it later. Earlier rather than later. Edited.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 15, 2016, 03:34:59 PM
I finished plumbing my hydraulic clutch line this morning. I needed a length of 4AN flexible hose to connect the slave cylinder to the main hard line from the master cylinder. A hard line connection would probably fail due to the relative vibration between the chassis and the transaxle. A little flex line should prevent that.

I measured a length of Aeroquip braided SS hose and cut it to length with a cut-off wheel and installed Aeroquip 4AN hose ends. It takes lots of force to push the ends on before threading the back shell on. Moving the hose around while pushing helps.

I consider it a success since I did not stab myself on the cut braid ends. Oh yes- I painted a line around the braid as Aeroquip suggests to make any push-out of the hose clearly visible.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on March 15, 2016, 05:09:43 PM
I consider it a success since I did not stab myself on the cut braid ends. Oh yes- I painted a line around the braid as Aeroquip suggests to make any push-out of the hose clearly visible.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
[/quote]

And you brag that you didn't injure yourself and you did do something they suggested and by golly it looks like they were right -- hunh, is that it?

C'mpn, Neil.  There's something just plain wrong with someone that gets it so right.

Not even a little poke and a tiny band aid? :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 15, 2016, 05:27:08 PM
Nope, not even one, Jon. Having said that, I hate to think of what's going to happen the next time I put a fitting on braided Teflon hose. Stand by with a first-aid kit!  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 16, 2016, 12:42:01 AM
Not an easy job.
Well done Neil.
I've watched it being done and the guy used tape on the hose where he made the cut.
He said it helped stop the braid from unraveling. That SS burns like hell if you get pricked. :evil:
I guess you've got it down!!!. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on March 16, 2016, 09:42:50 AM
Neil...Russell hose and fitting assembly lube. Summit sells it.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 16, 2016, 11:38:23 AM
Neil...Russell hose and fitting assembly lube. Summit sells it.

I didn't have any when I made the hose but thanks for the recommendation- I'll order some.

Mike;

Tape does help keep the SS braid from fraying out when it is cut. I use a thin abrasive cut-off wheel to cut the hose; I never had any success using the recommended "fine-tooth hacksaw". The finest I've seen is 32 TPI and it just rips up the braid. BTW, this was the Teflon-lined hose- I've never tried assembling a braided rubber hose.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RichFox on March 16, 2016, 12:41:42 PM
The Teflon hose is the easy one. Rubber is a pain. Teflon is a lot better hose anyway.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 16, 2016, 02:09:36 PM
The Teflon hose is the easy one. Rubber is a pain. Teflon is a lot better hose anyway.

If Teflon is the "easy" one, I don't think I will be doing any braided SS rubber ones! The push-on fittings work just fine with the appropriate rubber hose.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 16, 2016, 02:16:51 PM
Neil...Russell hose and fitting assembly lube. Summit sells it.

I didn't have any when I made the hose but thanks for the recommendation- I'll order some.

Mike;

Tape does help keep the SS braid from fraying out when it is cut. I use a thin abrasive cut-off wheel to cut the hose; I never had any success using the recommended "fine-tooth hacksaw". The finest I've seen is 32 TPI and it just rips up the braid. BTW, this was the Teflon-lined hose- I've never tried assembling a braided rubber hose.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

You're right Neil, my friend also used the thin cut off wheel.
I tried just once to use the hacksaw. Didn't go well at all.  :evil:
Doing hoses isn't easy. The guy on my street sells Goodridge and he's got that fancy cutting machine.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on March 16, 2016, 02:36:06 PM
I do this: https://www.anplumbing.com/hose_cutting (https://www.anplumbing.com/hose_cutting) It works as advertised. :-D

Mike
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Ron Gibson on March 16, 2016, 03:07:10 PM
I use a narrow hose clamp around the hose, tightened to where the hose is compressed. Use a thin cutoff wheel (squinting works as good as goggles doesn't it) right next to the clamp, cutting toward the screw. With the sleeve/nut ready, don't loosen the clamp, just pull it off and slip the sleeve/nut on before the hose expands. The hose will expand inside the nut, then assemble as normal. I've used this method on rubber and teflon both.

YMMV
Ron
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on March 16, 2016, 03:18:59 PM
I do this: https://www.anplumbing.com/hose_cutting (https://www.anplumbing.com/hose_cutting) It works as advertised. :-D

Mike


Wow, that I have to try!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 16, 2016, 03:51:39 PM
Good videos there. Thanks, Mike.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on March 16, 2016, 05:03:14 PM
YES, the method.

Chisel must be VERY SHARP!!!!!

My experience is that it DOES NOT WORK on large diameter Teflon lines though.   It can crack the Teflon liner.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on March 16, 2016, 06:15:07 PM
I like my "real" Beverly shear. I have a B2 that I keep sharp and adjusted tight for thin sheet metal and it works great on braided hose.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Kiwi Paul on March 16, 2016, 11:49:35 PM
Rex is right. And if anyone has a Beverly Shear languishing, please let me know, as I am in need.....
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 03, 2016, 11:32:38 PM
Joline and I got back last night from a week-long trip to Peru. It is an interesting country with lots of history and beautiful places but it is definitely a dirt-poor 3rd- world place- a big contrast with Chile. Except for Lima, on the coast, the lowest altitude we experienced was 8000 ft; the highest was 14,500 ft along the route of the Andean Explorer train.  Not a good place to race in N/A class.  :-) The streets in Cusco are narrow and anything but level. Here is a typical sight in Cusco.

Now back to work on the car.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 04, 2016, 02:22:26 AM
I hope you enjoyed it Neil?. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on April 04, 2016, 11:49:39 AM
Hey Neil, did you notice that you are also naturally aspirated....  :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 04, 2016, 01:18:44 PM
Hey Neil, did you notice that you are also naturally aspirated....  :-D

Did I ever! Climbing up stone steps @ 13,000 ft on Taquile (an island in Lake Titicaca) was not easy; I could have used a supercharger. Coca tea is supposed to ward off altitude sickness so I tried it. There is an herb on the island that is used to help breathing; you rub the leaves in your cupped hands and breathe the vapor. It is a natural bronchodilator and it actually did help.

I will resist making cheap jokes about moving to a blown class.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 04, 2016, 01:27:11 PM
I hope you enjoyed it Neil?. :cheers:


I did enjoy the trip, Mike. Lots to see there. The contrast between the adjacent countries of Peru and Chile is striking. Peru simply hasn't been able to get its $hit together. You'd think that since tourism is such an important part of the economy, they would have everything in place to facilitate making things easy for tourists to visit. No, everything is disjointed and confused. You even have to show your passport to get a bus ticket! All in all it was an enjoyable trip and we are glad we went. Machu Picchu and Lake Titicaca are truly unique.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on April 04, 2016, 02:55:11 PM
I use a hose cutter from Summit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900040/overview/  When sharp it works great and easy to use. Need touch up the edge time to time, the stainless is tough. Leaves a nice smooth end, pretty much like the chisel and block deal

If you are doing a lot of hose ends and struggle (after hack sawing or other not so nice methods of cutting the hose) getting the hose into the nut these tools made by "Koul tools" really work slick. Bit pricy but if you do a lot they really work: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/kts-416/overview/

Neil- sounds like a great trip. We are headed there this July. Galapagos first then Machu Picchu. Get home Sunday, if life is good (car goes down track at Wilmington and there is salt) get in car Tuesday to drive to Bonneville!. :)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 04, 2016, 05:14:20 PM
Thanks for the links, Jack.

We've never been to the Galapagos; After our cruise around Cape Horn a couple of years ago we chose to fly to Easter Island instead. You'll enjoy Machu Picchu- take a hat & sunscreen!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on April 04, 2016, 07:32:56 PM
Neil, Machu Picchu is on our to do list.

Did you take the Hiram Bingham train and if so how was it?

Thanks, Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 04, 2016, 07:48:26 PM
Neil, Machu Picchu is on our to do list.

Did you take the Hiram Bingham train and if so how was it?

Thanks, Don

Don;

The $700 Hiram Bingham train fare was not too attractive but we saw that it was a very classy restored carriage train. We opted for the less expensive  PeruRail "Vista Dome" and enjoyed it very much. We did splurge on our hotel, the Belmond Sanctuary Lodge, located on the mountain at the entrance to Machu Piccu. $$$$ but very modern and the price include breakfast, lunch, & dinner as well as drinks. The staff and the food was first-class.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on April 05, 2016, 08:54:40 AM
Hey Neil, did you notice that you are also naturally aspirated....  :-D
I have variable -rate intake with free flowing exhaust............. :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 17, 2016, 01:23:26 PM
I had the inner CV joints unbolted from the transaxle and wired up out of the way but when I rolled the car on & off a trailer to take it to a car show, the wire tore both rubber CV boots. A pair of new boots arrived the other day so I pulled the right rear upright off and removed the axle. Removing and replacing the inner CV boot was a messy job- that black molybdenum sulfide grease gets on everything.  :x
Now I have to do the left rear boot, a job that I'm not looking forward to.

The CV bearings seemed to be in good shape so that's a relief. The axles & rear uprights are from a 996 Porsche.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 20, 2016, 03:43:06 PM
When I pulled off the left rear inner CV boot the grease looked a bit dry and chalky so I pulled the CV off the axle and cleaned out the old black molybdenum sulfide grease with paint thinner. This morning I greased it with Red Line CV-2 and reinstalled it on the axle after replacing the torn rubber CV boot. Now I'm bolting everything back into place in the rear suspension.

Red Line CV-2 seems to be good stuff for a variety of heavy-duty applications.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on April 20, 2016, 07:05:41 PM
Sometimes what seems to be a mistake (wire tearing boot) can save us (dry joint).
I like it when things work out like that.   :cheers:

Nice work Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 01, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
Both axles are bolted back in place now as are the rear uprights and the suspension arms. I've added the required safety washers that prevent the rod end from coming off in case the ball separates from its housing. The cone spacers give the rod end more angular motion before bottoming out.

The alignment is close but I'll need to fine tune it at the proper ride height. One suspension arm is a bit short (see photo) and I'll replace it later with a longer one to give me more thread engagement.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 01, 2016, 12:30:14 PM
One more- an outer suspension arm connection to the left rear upright.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 02, 2016, 09:54:02 AM
You are right of course, Mark, but in some cases, it was unavoidable. The car weighs 1950 lbs dry and the bolts are 1/2" & 5/8" diameter and, with a couple of exceptions are NAS & MS titanium or A256 so the shear stress should not be a problem.

I used double shear attachment brackets where possible but in some places it wasn't practical.

See: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120003667.pdf

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on May 02, 2016, 10:33:19 AM
One more- an outer suspension arm connection to the left rear upright.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil, I gave careful consideration to using swedged tie rods like ones you show in your suspension picture. They are economical and can be had in inch long increments. What I was not sure of is strength in tension. My front axle trailing links (four of them) will mostly be in tension. I could find no spec data for these links. Were you able to source any?

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on May 02, 2016, 08:37:24 PM
Neil, one issue with titanium is its low modulus of elasticity.  It takes bigger dia bolts to get the same clamping force as with steel bolts.

Another issue is thread galling.  It can be like stainless steel in this respect.  Use of ti bolts with stainless nuts is what I did to prevent this.  The frictional coefficient needs to be derived empirically to figure out the torque wrench settings.  This was no big deal.  I torqued a ti bolt with a stainless nut that was in a hole in an old pair of cylinders.  A curve was made relating the toque wrench reading vs the bolt elongation.  Then I back calculated the clamping force vs elongation and clamping force vs torque wrench reading.

That is when I learned that ti loves to stretch and it does not do a good job in the clamping department.  The old style carbon steel or stainless steel bolts went back onto the bike.  The Triumph will be retired some day and I will put the ti bolts back on.  They look sorta trick and cool.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 02, 2016, 09:35:56 PM
John;

I haven't found any data on that either. The fact that they are almost universally used on sprint cars, etc. gives me a feeling of confidence, though.

WW;

Yes, I'm aware of the galling problem with Ti; these NAS locknuts have a MoS2 dry film lubricant baked on to minimize galling. I also used Never-Seez as an extra measure. The modulus may be lower than alloy steel but these bolts are 1/2" & 5/8" and my car is light so the stress will be pretty far below where stretch or bending of the bolts would be a problem. One other consideration was that Ti & A256 bolts won't rust.

This presentation has useful info about bolted joints: www.instarengineering.com/pdf/Instar_DABJ_Course_Sampler.pdf

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on May 03, 2016, 12:21:56 PM
Neil,
Thanks for the great link to the bolt design and analysis info. Great stuff!!

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 03, 2016, 10:15:09 PM
You're welcome, Rex. There is a lot of useful stuff on the internet but finding it is not always easy. Finding totally useless crap is, however.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on May 05, 2016, 09:49:12 AM
You're welcome, Rex. There is a lot of useful stuff on the internet but finding it is not always easy. Finding totally useless crap is, however.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Amen to that!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DaveB on May 10, 2016, 04:44:35 PM
Neil, I just perused your build thread. That car seams more like a Can Am car (yea I know its a Manta therefor shaped like a McLaren) than a land speed racer. What with a Porsche transaxle, Chevy V8, what looks like road race suspension, those big meat tires etc. I bet that thing would go like stink on a coarse.

I maybe read there were enough made to get you in a production LSR class, or something like that. I'm sure it will go great in LSR but I am wondering are you going to road race this car? Is there any way it can fit in a vintage road race class or are to many of the components too modern?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 10, 2016, 11:20:02 PM
Dave;

Yeah, the Manta Mirage body was copied from a McLaren M8 Can-Am car (Brad LoVette, the founder of Manta Cars, was crew chief on a Lola) but he made it into a closed-cockpit coupe instead of the original open-cockpit M8. I used the Mirage fiberglass body because of its aerodynamics. There were definitely more than enough produced (noted by Stainless a long time ago) to qualify for Modified Sports.

I built my car to meet the SCTA requirements but also to my view of what a "Sports" is. Yes, I plan to do some laps on an independent road course outside of Willcox, AZ. Due to the SCTA requirements, it will be a bit heavy to be competitive but it should be fun. It isn't really "vintage" since it isn't even a "replica" of an existing car so I'd probably be invited to leave any vintage event.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DaveB on May 11, 2016, 09:28:52 AM
Thanks Neil. It's a beautiful car. McLaren, Chaparral, Lola were the pinnacle in my opinion.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 14, 2016, 08:20:39 PM
A bit more done; I re-installed the headers (Schoenfeld) using ARP header bolts this time. I also wired up the Mallory distributor to 12v power and ground and connected the Crane HI-6 trigger to the distributor.

This time I tried some neat little butt connectors made by Raychem instead of the usual crimp connectors. They are made of a very high temperature shrink sleeve with an melt able adhesive ring around the inside of each end and it has a solder ring in the middle. You just insert the stripped ends of the wires into each end and heat the connector with a heat gun. The adhesive melts and secures the wires and the solder ring melts and forms a good electrical connection.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 14, 2016, 08:35:04 PM
Here is what that Raychem butt connector looks like. They come in different sizes to fit the wire size that's used.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 16, 2016, 10:56:43 AM
That sounds and looks awesome Neil. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on June 01, 2016, 04:20:23 PM
Both axles are bolted back in place now as are the rear uprights and the suspension arms. I've added the required safety washers that prevent the rod end from coming off in case the ball separates from its housing. The cone spacers give the rod end more angular motion before bottoming out.

The alignment is close but I'll need to fine tune it at the proper ride height. One suspension arm is a bit short (see photo) and I'll replace it later with a longer one to give me more thread engagement.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Hi Neil:

Thought I would give those swaged trailing arms a try. Most of the force these arms will take is tension so I got them as long as I needed to use all the rod end threading.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 01, 2016, 04:47:30 PM
John;

Those swaged tubes are very useful-- and surprisingly cheap! Swaging the tube ends increases the thickness in that area so it maintains its strength when it is tapped for threads.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on June 01, 2016, 04:53:57 PM
Inexpensive and come in one inch length increments. I found a place that offers them in half inch increments if you should ever need them.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 05, 2016, 09:00:09 PM
Thanks, John. I usually order mine from Speedway Motors but being able to buy them in 1/2" increments is an advantage.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 05, 2016, 09:23:12 PM
I decided to remove my Crower mechanical fuel injection manifold and replace it for now with a carburetor-- one less thing to fiddle with. The carb is a Holley 850CFM double-pumper on an Edelbrock 4+4 manifold. This manifold is out of production but a call to Edelbrock reassured me that it is a good one. It is virtually the same as a Super Victor; I suspect that Marketing goofed in calling it a "4+4"-- too similar to "4x4". I'm sure many people misconstrued it as being designed for a four wheel drive vehicle so they re-named it.

I still need to replace the distributor and fabricate a throttle linkage. I found the carb venturi on eBay for $10 with free shipping! New, spun aluminum-- shoulda bought two.

After the car & engine is sorted out, I'll put the MFI back on.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 05, 2016, 11:06:14 PM
Aw man, it's a Chevy!!! :-D :-D :-D :-D
Great work as usual Neil. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on June 06, 2016, 12:14:42 AM
Don't be afraid of the mechanical injection Neil. I worked with Hilborn on gas on a sports racing car and Crower on alcohol on a sprint car. Learn how to set them up and they're dead simple.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 06, 2016, 10:54:24 AM
Thanks, Mike.

Pete, I have too many other things to do to take time to learn how to set up my MFI. I'll put that off until I get other, more basic, things sorted out.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 07, 2016, 01:19:43 AM
That nice carb would be categorized as "problem permanently solved" for the ol'walrus.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 06, 2016, 01:26:51 PM
It may seem as if this project has come to a halt but it is continuing in fits and starts. Lots of little things done, not worth mentioning, but they take time. Some travel has slowed things as well. Enough excuses.  :-)

I did get some plumbing done on the radiator vent system and on the fuel system. There is a small line from the top of the radiator back to an aluminum tank that has a pressure cap and a drain line into the water pump inlet line. An overflow line is routed to a small aluminum catch tank. This way any air bubbles in the coolant flow will not air lock the radiator, they will be vented to the tank instead. This also allows the system to be fully filled with coolant. I used 1/4" Nylo-Seal tubing and brass Poly-Flo fittings. I also connected my oil pressure line from the block to the gauge with the same type of tubing and fittings. I've ordered some fire sleeve to cover the exposed oil line.

The fuel lines to the electric fuel pump, filters, and carburetor are done. Setting the float level was a comedy of errors. The first time I tried pressurizing the system I saw leaks around the sight plugs and float level adjusting screws. I didn't have any new Holley washers so I scrounged around and found a few Teflon washers that fit. The next time I pressurized the fuel line, gas shot up out of the bowl vent tubes! Arrgghh... obviously the float level was WAY too high. I lowered the level way down but even the end point was still too high. It eventually dawned on me that the problem was the thickness of the Teflon washer under the float level adjustment screw- it was much thicker than the Holley washer. This did not allow the adjustment to lower the float all the way down. A trip to town- Don's Hot Rod Shop- produced the proper Holley washers and I was able to adjust the float to its approximate level. Lesson learned.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 07, 2016, 12:31:21 AM
Neil, sometimes I need to solder two wire ends together.  I strip the insulation off the wires, twist them together, apply flux, then solder the wires.  The soldered wire joint is thicker than the wires on each side and eventually vibration or flexure during handling fatigues a wire adjacent to the joint and it breaks.  Do you have any tricks to make that breakage not happen?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on September 07, 2016, 08:15:43 AM
Neil, sometimes I need to solder two wire ends together.  I strip the insulation off the wires, twist them together, apply flux, then solder the wires.  The soldered wire joint is thicker than the wires on each side and eventually vibration or flexure during handling fatigues a wire adjacent to the joint and it breaks.  Do you have any tricks to make that breakage not happen?

WW
I am sure Neal has an excellent  solution to  your soidering question but for  what it is worth I have had success with using double wall adhesive shrink tubing. http://buyheatshrink.com/ (http://buyheatshrink.com/) . The thick tubing with the adhesive keeps each end from flexing at the weak area between the solder and the wire insulation.

My 2 cents.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 07, 2016, 08:30:56 AM
Neil, the only thing you haven't shown us is the landing gear!!!.
That's built like a plane. AWESOME!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I love your work and it's great to see pics again.
You inspire me.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2016, 12:57:48 PM
WW;

Wheelrdealer's solution is an excellent one. The cause of the breakage is flexing the wire at points where the solder has wicked up into the strands, making those points a transition in the wire from flexible to rigid. This concentrates the stress and the wire breaks from fatigue. A butt crimp eliminates the solder wicking but it still needs some mechanical support such as the meltable inner wall shrink tubing he suggested.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 07, 2016, 10:03:03 PM
I needed a new ignition wire from my coil to the distributor post so I ordered a kit from Taylor/Vertex. They make a very nice ignition wire called "409" which is a large-diameter (10mm) silicone insulated wire with a core resistance of 400 ohms per foot. My Crane ignition box specifies this resistance for best operation. I'll post a picture of the distributor end, before the boot is installed and before it is bent 90 degrees. Taylor makes good stuff.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2016, 06:28:31 PM
More little tasks. I wanted to give some support to the fiberglass nose of my Mirage so that aerodynamic down force wouldn't cause it to deform too much. I had a 1 3/4" gap between the bottom of the fiberglass and the top of the forward bulkhead that I needed to seal anyway so I found an aluminum extrusion that was the perfect size, a 1 3/4" tall "C" section that both supported the nose and sealed the cockpit. Lucky find.

To fasten the extrusion to the fiberglass, I pressed in five floating captive nuts. There will be 4-40 screws thru the 'glass and into the captive nuts. This way I can remove the extrusion when I remove the front body work.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2016, 08:37:43 PM
The access panel in the nose is simply flat fiberglass with a small remainder of 'glass that was cut off so it wasn't as stiff as I'd like; down force might distort or bow the panel so I added two aluminum angles on the underside. They are 1" x 1" x 0.060" 7075-T651, zinc chromate primed and fastened on with a row of 1/8" Avex rivets. This added a lot of rigidity to this panel.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 14, 2016, 04:00:38 AM
Looks good Neil.
I always like to bond and rivet when doing jobs like that.
That way the glass doesn't have chance of tearing the holes or opening them.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on September 14, 2016, 10:23:47 AM
Looks good Neil.
I always like to bond and rivet when doing jobs like that.
That way the glass doesn't have chance of tearing the holes or opening them.

Note to self, remember this.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 14, 2016, 11:41:12 AM
Good advice- thanks, Mike.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 15, 2016, 12:20:09 AM
Thanks for the advice about the wiring problem.  I had been using the single wall shrink tubing and it was not enough.  The double wall works a lot better.  Also noted are how you secure the wires to the frame so they do not wiggle.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 24, 2016, 09:27:21 PM
I thought I'd take my car to the "Tucson Classic" car show next month after Joline and I return from a trip to Normandy. Since I'm tired of explaining what it is-- people always ask-- and I'm tired of saying "Its just a car that I'm building", I've decided to name it: Werewolf.

It's black, sinister looking and I've never seen another car with that name.

Off to France on Monday morning. After a bit of polishing, it is ready to put on the trailer when we get home.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 24, 2016, 11:59:26 PM
Neil, that looks great.  Was it hard to register a car that you made yourself? 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on September 25, 2016, 12:06:03 AM
Looks great Neil. Well done.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 25, 2016, 01:58:24 AM
Beautiful Neil. Have a good trip. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on September 25, 2016, 10:03:58 AM
Neil, that looks great.  Was it hard to register a car that you made yourself?  

WW... I think its a race car.... no lights... no horn... looks like it would be hard to do hand signals, especially when he is strapped in  :roll:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 25, 2016, 10:33:48 AM
I've decided to name it: Werewolf.


"Better stay away from him
He'll rip your lungs out, Jim
I'd like to meet his tailor"


Warren Zevon

 :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on September 25, 2016, 10:42:32 AM
If you want to meet his tailor you will have to travel to London  8-)
 :cheers:

or in this case.... Tucson  :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 25, 2016, 11:22:19 AM
Neil, that looks great.  Was it hard to register a car that you made yourself? 

WW;

Thanks. Car shows are not typically set up for ones like mine; it isn't a "Custom" since they regard that as a customized version of a production car and it isn't a "Kit Car". I fall into the "Other" category. If car shows organizers has a class for "Race Cars" maybe more racers would bring out their cars for people to see and it would be a good chance to meet people and talk about Save the Salt, etc.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 25, 2016, 11:31:41 AM
Neil, that looks great.  Was it hard to register a car that you made yourself?  

WW... I think its a race car.... no lights... no horn... looks like it would be hard to do hand signals, especially when he is strapped in  :roll:
 :cheers:

Stainless;

I interpreted WW's question to be registration for the car show. Registration for the street would be totally impossible. I do have another Manta Mirage, a red one, that is street legal.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 25, 2016, 11:34:48 AM
I've decided to name it: Werewolf.


"Better stay away from him
He'll rip your lungs out, Jim
I'd like to meet his tailor"


Warren Zevon

 :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:

"Children uff da night...such beautiful music"

Bela Lugosi    :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on September 25, 2016, 01:24:00 PM
Neil, if I'm ever out your way on a moon-lit night I'll be sure to bring my silver bullets!  Owwwwooooooooo! :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 25, 2016, 02:04:46 PM
Neil, if I'm ever out your way on a moon-lit night I'll be sure to bring my silver bullets!  Owwwwooooooooo! :-D :-D

Arrggghhh......garlic, wolfbane, crosses, and now silver bullets! I'm going to complain to the Humane Society!  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 27, 2016, 12:25:17 AM
Register it in Mexico?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on September 27, 2016, 10:33:05 AM
Register it in Mexico?

I personally like Werewolf way better that Tijuana Taxi....  :roll:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Podunk on September 28, 2016, 07:30:01 PM
Does have more of a bite to it.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 28, 2016, 09:05:11 PM
Neil, before you commit to the "Werewolf" moniker, might I suggest "Beowulf" instead?

Werewolves are common nocturnal literary creatures - but Beowulf is a legendary warrior, and a name that might be more in keeping with the car's character.

Sincerely,

Milwaukee "always a fan of alliteration" Midget
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 14, 2016, 10:58:49 AM
Yeah, I know. But I'd get tired of explaining to everybody who "Beowulf" was.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on October 14, 2016, 11:21:42 AM
Heck of a note - to be so old that you remember Beowulf as a high school buddy, not just some literature. :evil: :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 25, 2016, 06:31:59 PM
I decided to re-arrange my rear body pivot so that I have some adjustment of the body alignment fore and aft. There were pads on the chassis that I had welded in some time ago so I made supports that used those bolt patterns to mount them.

Since I didn't have a band saw, I used a reciprocating saw (HF) and a hacksaw to cut the supports out of a 1 1/4" aluminum plate- 7075-T7. To keep the recip saw blade from skating around, I used a hacksaw to start a cut and then used that kerf to make the recip saw cut. I quickly found out that the Harbor Freight "bi-metal" saw blades weren't worth a $hit. Lennox and DeWalt blades worked just fine, though. Lots of work making those cuts! The cut edges were dressed on a belt sander using 3M Cubitron II abrasive.

1/2-20 tapped holes allow rod end (Heim) bearings to thread in and out to provide the adjustment. Of course, I primed the aluminum parts with Zinc Chromate.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 26, 2016, 02:42:25 AM
Those parts look great Neil.
It took some hard work for sure.
My reciprocating saw is my #1 tool and I know what you mean when you talk about
skating around. :-D
Try Starrett blades when you get a chance. They're all I use and for composites the 18t
are best.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 26, 2016, 10:31:00 AM
Thanks, Mike. I've used Starrett hacksaw blades and I agree- they are good.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on November 29, 2016, 09:10:49 AM
top notch work Neil. pun intended.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 04, 2016, 05:34:31 PM
I just ran into an interesting problem- while I was bolting on my newly made rear body brackets, I noticed that the left exhaust header was a little loose. I thought that I had torqued the bolts but maybe I hadn't, so I tried to tighten the bolts that fasten the header flange to the head. No dice, they were tight! I found that the bolts were bottomed in the head. These are new ARP 3/8" UNC bolts with a 1.00" grip length and an ARP 0.050" thick washer.

Odd- has anyone run into this before? The heads are Dart aluminum heads. I added two 0.063" stainless washers as spacers and now it seats properly. Strange! Both L & R header bolts were bottomed. PITA  :x

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on December 04, 2016, 06:25:43 PM
"ARP 0.050" thick washer"

I'd call that a thin washer.  Were the bolts specified for your heads with the flange you're using?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 05, 2016, 12:54:37 AM
Neil, most of the time on bikes threaded studs are put in the holes near the manifolds.  Nuts are tightened down onto the studs to hold down the manifolds.  This prevents the problem you are having.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on December 05, 2016, 07:38:45 AM
Sounds like the header bolt holes are barely .500" deep. How deep are the rest of them? Seems like machining error to me. Might run it by Dart and see what they say.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on December 05, 2016, 11:14:45 AM
I'm with Jack on that... my preference is at least twice the bolt diameter when going into aluminum.
What torque is called out for those bolts?   
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 05, 2016, 11:30:40 AM
Stan- Yes these are the recommended bolts for this header flange and Fel-Pro gasket.

WW- There is not much room between the bolt holes in the flanges and the tubes on a SBC header. These bolts are a "reduced head" so that you can get a 3/8" hex wrench on them. I think a nut would not fit leaving wrench or socket clearance.

Jack- I think the threaded depth is about 0.925".

Bob- There is plenty of engagement, over 2 x 0.375". Dart calls for 35 ft-lbs torque on the header bolts.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on December 05, 2016, 12:25:07 PM
Neil, how thick are your header plates. I've always used 3/8" plate as a minimum. I've never seen headers with 1/4" plate flanges that seal properly for very long.

Are the holes tapped to the bottom of the hole. You may want to invest in a bottoming tap of the correct size and thread and go through each hole. It's worth getting a proper aluminum tapping fluid such as A-9 or Alumicut when you do the tapping.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 05, 2016, 09:10:52 PM
Pete;

These are Schoenfeld SBC headers. I think they have 3/16" thick flanges.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on December 05, 2016, 10:41:18 PM
That sounds like something built for the ultimate in weight saving. Schoenfeld build a lot of oval track headers and those guys sometimes do some ridiculous things to save weight. Keep a close eye on them because they'll likely have a tendency to warp.

Bo's idea of using studs is a good one and totally legitimate. You can get reduced head nuts similar to the bolts you're using now. Using them will reduce the wear on the threads in the heads. Just be sure to adjust the torque values if the studs are fine thread.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 06, 2016, 03:47:37 AM
Neil, I think Bo is on the money.
Studs make fitting so much easier especially on headers.
I know you'll resolve the issue no problem. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 06, 2016, 10:47:42 AM
Pete;

You are right, these are circle track headers. That must explain why the screws bottomed out in the holes- thinner flanges.

I wasn't aware of reduced size hex nuts; I'll check into those.

This forum is so helpful, I learn something here all the time- thanks!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on December 06, 2016, 10:55:35 AM
Pete;

You are right, these are circle track headers. That must explain why the screws bottomed out in the holes- thinner flanges.

I wasn't aware of reduced size hex nuts; I'll check into those.

This forum is so helpful, I learn something here all the time- thanks!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Not so much hex nuts perhaps. 12 pt. I use them a lot on my engine. ARP has them.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on December 06, 2016, 11:18:38 AM
The downside to 12 point is that you can't use an open end wrench on them.  :-P  

  Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on December 06, 2016, 11:34:42 AM
These work well but you need to locktite the studs in place as the lock nut is pretty aggressive.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/ha/nut_hex/ms21042.php
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on December 06, 2016, 11:40:01 AM
Not that I get around much, but I've never seen 3/16" flanges (ours are 3/8").  But the explanation makes sense. With as thin as the flange is, I'd use as big (and thick) a washer that would fit.  Might even contour some around the pipes if needed.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2016, 01:08:33 PM
Last week I thought I was going to fire up the engine for the first time. I topped up the charge on the battery, checked for spark and saw a nice fat spark out of the Crane HI-6. I cranked the engine over to build up oil pressure and that looked OK. I switched off the ignition and switched on the electric fuel pump- arrggghhh fuel leaks in the carb fuel bowls. The gaskets were new and the screws were tight but there was gas leaking through the gaskets. These were new "non-stick" fiber gaskets from a Holley rebuild kit and the gasket surfaces were in good shape so there seems to be no other explanation than these gaskets are NFG. I wonder if this Holley rebuild kit is a counterfeit instead of genuine Holley.

In any case, I ordered new gaskets directly from Speedway Motors (due tomorrow), this time I'll try the Buna-N "non-stick" gaskets. These should solve the leak problem. Before this I had not realized that there were different gasket choices for Holley double-pumpers.
Has anyone else had problems with counterfeit fiber gaskets?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 19, 2016, 01:24:27 PM
Don said:   "...The downside to 12 point is that you can't use an open end wrench on them."

Hunh?  A wrench?  Why would you?  I thought those 12pt heads were designed for guys with versatile Vise Grips and Channel Locks.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2016, 01:35:20 PM
Don said:   "...The downside to 12 point is that you can't use an open end wrench on them."

Hunh?  A wrench?  Why would you?  I thought those 12pt heads were designed for guys with versatile Vise Grips and Channel Locks.

Well sure, Jon. Those heads are designed to give you a non-slip grip with gas pliers. They aren't too good for Crescent wrenches, though.  :roll:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 19, 2016, 01:46:10 PM
Neil, you date yourself when you call 'em "gas pliers".  I haven't heard that name in a while. . .at least since Dad died.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2016, 02:16:03 PM
You're 10 years behind me, Jon. Does this qualify you as a "young whippersnapper"?  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on December 19, 2016, 02:23:10 PM
My dad called them "water pump pliers"
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 19, 2016, 02:32:38 PM
Not to further the hijack, but to further the hijack, how many remember when water pumps had 1725 rpm motors and turned the single cyl water pump that froze up lots during the winter?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on December 19, 2016, 02:34:17 PM
Don said:   "...The downside to 12 point is that you can't use an open end wrench on them."

Hunh?  A wrench?  Why would you?  I thought those 12pt heads were designed for guys with versatile Vise Grips and Channel Locks.

Jon, For one of my engines I used all ARP 12pt fasteners.

They worked well and looked very nice while the engine was on the stand but once in the car they became a PITA.

My dad called them water pump plies too, I never did ask him why.   :?

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on December 19, 2016, 03:11:46 PM
Because water pumps used to have a packing gland on the shaft that had to be tightened to slow down the leak. Notice I said slow down not stop.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on December 19, 2016, 03:12:23 PM
. . . to tighten the packing nut on early automotive water pumps.

(Beat me to it.)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on December 19, 2016, 05:26:29 PM
  Had to have some leak or you would burn up the seal. I worked in the ice cream business and all of our refrigeration was with Ammonia and the seals were fed pressurized oil and had a drip catcher on the outside of the pump that you had to empty daily. The seals were graphite/rope packing backed up with layers of lead and every few years you had to dig the lead out and replace it all. Today a seal kit that you can hold in the palm of your hand costs about $600.
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2016, 06:02:19 PM
OK, back to the gasket question...  :-) ... has anyone had problems with Holley gaskets leaking?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 23, 2016, 11:34:22 AM
I received part of my order, the metering block gaskets are shipped from the factory (Holley) for some season. The mating flat surfaces of the float level screws and nuts looked suspect so I ordered a new set. In the mean time I lapped both sides of the nut flat. I think there may have been fuel leaking around the nylon gaskets since it may not have seated properly. We'll see....

"Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night"

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on January 07, 2017, 10:58:23 PM
Hi Neil,
Fuel leak solved yet?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 07, 2017, 11:38:13 PM
Neil, those carb bolts need to be cinched up using a monkey wrench. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 08, 2017, 11:04:39 AM
The Christmas and New Year holidays delayed the carb project somewhat with out-of-town visitors, etc.

After I scraped out the remainder of the fiber bowl washers, those gasket surfaces did not look very good so I took a piloted counterbore and did a light spot facing on the surfaces to clean them up. In the mean time, the new gaskets arrived and I've installed them. Today should be a warm day so I can slide open my "barn door" and turn on the electric fuel pump to check the carb for fuel leaks. I have a big CO2 fire extinguisher handy and any spilled gas fumes will be vented out the open door. Fingers crossed, monkey wrench handy.   :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 08, 2017, 06:03:11 PM
Switched on the battery, switched on the fuel pump- no leaks! Now to set the float levels.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 09, 2017, 07:25:55 PM
Float levels set, slight seep from primary sight screw. Cleaned the secondary accelerator pump squirter check valve so it is working OK now.

Fuel pressure gauge shows only 3 psi at the carb log manifold; need to check the voltage at the fuel pump while it is running and the fuel filters. It could be that the small fuel pressure gauge is off- could the el-cheapo Chinese stuff be that bad?  :x

Switched on fuel pump and ignition and cranked the engine over. It fired but it needs to get the idle mixture & speed adjusted as well as the ignition timing. Low fuel pressure doesn't help, either. Made lots of noise but stopped at that point since Joline had her yoga class coming up soon. She teaches it upstairs in the shop.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on January 09, 2017, 07:30:43 PM

Open headers sound is yoga zin to me...plus the 115 octane aroma therapy!

I can't do all of the contortions.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 09, 2017, 08:44:51 PM
Maybe, BR, but the ladies don't have an appreciation of it.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 09, 2017, 09:08:57 PM
It's essence of Neil, I'm sure that will speed up the Yoga?.

Yes Neil The El Cheapo stuff can be "that" bad.

I hope you come right there man. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 09, 2017, 09:11:35 PM

Open headers sound is yoga zin to me...plus the 115 octane aroma therapy!



Bill, Neil, I'll bring the beer, but . . .

Ask Joline for sure - I'm pretty certain there's a Yoga position called Chalice Pose.

And Bill, I know if you're talking ZIN, then Mrs. Midget's in! 

:cheers:

just pickin' on ya, Bill . . .  :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on January 09, 2017, 09:34:28 PM
Neil:

Funny my wife does not have the same appreciation of fine exhaust notes as I do.

Mr. Midget I get it!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 10, 2017, 11:01:14 AM
I've got one that roots for the #2 car in Sprint Cup
and loves the racing so I get a chance to turn up the volume. :roll:
She's a Reiki Master. Wish she'd heal my piggy bank.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 10, 2017, 07:54:09 PM
I did some trouble shooting on my fuel system this afternoon. With the engine off but the electric fuel pump (Carter P4600HP) turned on, I read 3.5psi on a small gauge mounted in the fuel log on my Holley 850 double-pumper. This is less that the pump is spec'ed to put out (4.5 to 8.0psi) so something is wrong.

I checked the voltage at the pump while it was @ 3.5psi and my digital voltmeter read 12.62V; the battery voltage was 12.68V so the wiring is losing only 60 millivolts (#10AWG) so that isn't the problem.

Next, to check for pump cavitation, I removed the 100u filter between the pump inlet and the tank (actually a can of gas slightly higher than the pump and slightly below the filter) but there was no change in fuel pressure. There is a 10u filter between the pump outlet and the carb fuel log but that really should not cause a problem since there was plenty of gas flowing when I first encountered the massive leak. This is a mystery so far.

I did order a Marshall 0-15psi liquid-filled gauge this afternoon so I'll have something to cross-check my existing gauge with.

While looking on the internet, I was surprised by how many people complained that their liquid-filled pressure gauge was no good-- it changed its reading when it got hot. They ALL do that-- the gauge case has to be sealed or the liquid would leak out. As the liquid heats up it generates pressure inside the case and, since the gauge reads the difference between the input pressure and the internal case pressure, the needle reading changes. Good liquid-filled gauges have a small vent so that the case pressure can be relieved to atmospheric to re-calibrate the reading. Plain gauges are vented to the atmosphere already so they don't change with temperature.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 11, 2017, 07:12:13 PM
I fired up the engine for the first time this afternoon. I did not have any water in the cooling system so I only ran it for 10 seconds. The cylinder walls shouldn’t be hurt by a short run like this. I need to set the timing mixture and idle mixture when I fill the cooling system.

Joline took some video but even for a short run the file is 117MB so I can't attach it here.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 11, 2017, 08:14:17 PM
Since the start-up video was too large to attach here, I posted it on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybEkGde0Te8&feature=youtu.be

Regards,  Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on January 11, 2017, 10:06:05 PM
Sounds GREAT Neil!  Cylinder walls didn't even get warm with that run, no worries.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Finallygotit on January 12, 2017, 09:37:59 AM
Good job!!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on January 14, 2017, 10:50:10 AM
Major milestone!
Congrats! When I do this, it usually bumps my ambition level a bit. How about you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 14, 2017, 10:53:49 AM
Thanks, Rob. Yes, it does re-invigorate the project. (translation: "I'm psyched!!!)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on January 14, 2017, 12:39:29 PM
That first crank is always a rush!  :cheers:
Just don't start it on a full moon Neil!  :-o :-o
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Podunk on January 14, 2017, 05:27:02 PM
Woody's right it might get pretty hairy.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on January 16, 2017, 09:52:13 AM
Friday already??? :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 19, 2017, 06:39:23 PM
Rather than freehand label my switches & circuit breakers, I used OpenOffice Draw to lay out the legends as a 1:1 scale drawing. I then printed it on a clear, adhesive-backed film and placed it on the panel. The inkjet printer smeared it a bit but I didn’t feel like doing it over. The XXX switch-circuit breakers are spares that I placed on the panel in case anything else might be needed in the future.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 19, 2017, 06:51:19 PM
Last Thursday when I was in town for lunch with the Car Guyz, I stopped in at China Freight and bought a vacuum gauge. Day before yesterday I opened the box and found that the needle was not on zero, it read -2.5 psi. Arrrggghhh... took it back today to exchange it (no problem) but I had to open three boxes to find a gauge that read Zero. I suspect there was a batch of them that was that far off.  :x

Yesterday my new fuel pressure gauge arrived. It is a nice Marshalltown (USA) stainless liquid-filled 0 to 15 PSI gauge. I'll install it tomorrow and see if the fuel pump pressure really is only 3.5 psi or if the existing one (Jeg's) is off as badly as the first vacuum gauge.  :x Grumble, grumble.............

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 20, 2017, 02:21:14 AM
China Freight says it all!!!!!.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on January 20, 2017, 01:14:15 PM
    China Freight [A.K.A. "The Devil's Toolbox"].
 Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on January 20, 2017, 02:06:05 PM
You guys are just Harboring grudges.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: krusty on January 20, 2017, 05:15:47 PM
 :-D :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 20, 2017, 06:22:45 PM
You guys are just Harboring grudges.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete

Pete, I'm harboring gauges.  :lol:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 22, 2017, 07:48:26 PM
Today I removed the filler and drain plug on my transaxle (Porsche G50-01) and was surprised to see how much gear oil drained out into a pan-- two tablespoons! The guy I bought it from must have drained the tranny to lighten it for shipping many moons ago.

I put in three quarts of Red Line 75/90 NS synthetic gear oil with a little China Freight hand pump. Trying to get a funnel into the filler on the side of the case wasn't working but, fortunately, I found this little pump for $6.99 on sale. It actually worked quite well. To be sure of having a high enough oil level in the case, I'll buy another quart and put that in as well. Since this transaxle is running upside down, the usual oil capacity doesn't apply but the GT40 replica people are using 3 to 5 quarts so I think 4 should be OK.

Next came a vent tank (AKA "puke tank" to the Good Ol' Boys) to catch any oil blown out of the top tranny vent. I had a nice little aluminum tank from who knows what originally that looked perfect, except that it did not have a breather. Fortunately, I had one of those, too. It had a pressure/vacuum release button as well as automatic venting. The pressure spring was too strong so disassembled it and cut the coils down so that very little inside pressure would open the vent. If it took too high pressure to open, gear oil might be forced past the tranny seals and leak.

To mount the breather, I cut a 1" hole in the top and epoxied the mounting nut to the tank. The bottom is a drain fitting and a side #4 AN fitting will go to the transaxle vent. Next I'll mount the tank to the chassis.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on January 22, 2017, 10:38:11 PM
Switch panel came out sweet!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on January 23, 2017, 06:22:44 AM
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Nice work Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 24, 2017, 04:12:53 PM
While pondering the parachute question, I got on with mounting the catch tank for the transaxle vent line. I put in Riv-Nuts and installed it with titanium 10-32 screws. One more thing done. I've started adding water into the cooling system. So far I've added 240 fluid ounces; I guess that is about half of its capacity.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 25, 2017, 01:44:03 AM
Neil, a comment on titanium fasteners.  They rate very noble on the galvanic scale.  The thing they are screwed into is typically less or much less noble.  There can be some serious oxidation issues when saline solutions get into the threaded areas.  Basically, it locks up tight.  This is real bad with riv nuts.  The screw and nut both turn when removal is attempted.

Riv nuts of the more noble stainless steels seem to work OK with ti bolts or screws.  I use these and lots of loctite on the threads of the ti screw or bolt.  The loctite is used mainly as a thread sealant to keep the salt water out. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 25, 2017, 10:40:44 AM
Point well taken, WW. I always coat stainless steel & Ti threads with NeverSieze.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 31, 2017, 08:16:41 PM
After adding some water to my cooling system, I noticed a small puddle under the front but I couldn't find anyplace that seemed to be leaking near there. I took off a left-side panel and found a slow drip ahead of the LR tire. I tightened the T-bolt clamp a couple of turns and the leak stopped. The water had run forward to drip since the chassis has a forward rake.

Next, flushed with success, I added a gallon more to the filler and immediately heard water splattering on the floor. Oops, big leak. I could see that water was running out of three or four holes in the front of my Donovan SBC block.  :?  I had not expected those holes to be thru-drilled into the cooling jacket- but they were! A little research showed that those holes were originally placed there by Chevy for '55, '56, & '57 motor mounts. I had not realized that early the SBC did not have side mounts. Live and learn.

This necessitated a trip to town to buy some 3/8"-16 x 1/2" bolts. While I was there, I looked for a cooling system pressure tester but I could not find one for sale. Auto Zone loaned me one for 90 days free! They ring it up and when it is returned the charge is refunded. I'll use it to find any other sources of leaks (hopefully).

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 02, 2017, 04:49:56 PM
I bought eight 3/8"-16 x 1/2" hex head bolts in town yesterday and installed them using a thin flat steel washer under the head of the bolt and a Teflon washer under that to guarantee a seal against the block face. To seal the threads, I used ARP thread sealer.

Before I bought the bolts I called Donovan with both my block serial numbers and asked about the thread size. Gary returned my call, verifying the 3/8"-16 thread and told me the block that I am going to use later for my race engine was a special one they made for Dan Gurney's Indy car Eagle. I can't see anything different about it- an aluminum small block with dry sump- but it does have big AN fittings on both sides of the block into the water jacket. Where to plumb those is a mystery to me.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 02, 2017, 04:57:31 PM
All along I've been saying that I'm putting Never-Seize on my bolts but that is not strictly correct. It is an anti-seize paste but it is called "Nikal", made by Jet Lube. I probably bought it years ago at one of the USAF auctions that they used to have here at Davis- Monthan Air Force Base. The interesting thing about this stuff is that it consists of only pure nickel flakes in a gooey binder. It is rated up to 2600F so I think it will be OK for even header bolts, etc. Has anyone else ever used this?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on February 02, 2017, 05:36:49 PM
Auto Zone loaned me one for 90 days free! They ring it up and when it is returned the charge is refunded. I'll use it to find any other sources of leaks (hopefully).

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

This is very helpful to know, Neil. I use a coil of stainless steel tubing in my oil tank (from the hot side of my cooling system) and wanted to see if I had any leaks in my bends. I hope my AutoZone is as friendly.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on February 02, 2017, 07:20:19 PM
Neil, I don't want to second guess what you have found, but I'd like to share my experience on similar issues in the past.

In the picture below I circled the 4 bolt holes you are talking about. This is a Donovan alloy small block like yours I believe. Note the 2 lower holes circled in red. The water jackets don't go low enough for these hole to break into. The upper hole on the left circled in yellow goes directly into the fuel pump push rod hole. Again no water jacket at this point. The last hole on the right in the photo circled in blue is the only one I can see that MIGHT get into a water jacket.
The only reason I am pointing this out is because if water is coming out of the yellow hole you might have water in the crankcase! This can happen when the splayed side main bolts break into the water jacket from the bottom. When this would happen we would use Teflon sealer on the bolts or studs during the build. Otherwise you can fill the engine with water.

I'm just suggesting you double check where the water was coming from.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 02, 2017, 09:02:59 PM
Thanks, Mike. Water was definitely coming out of the blue-circled hole; it looked like water was coming out of the others, too but now that I think about it, that water was probably running across and dripping off the boss where the other holes were. There is no water in the oil- I have a sight gage on the side of my oil pan and a layer of water would be clearly visible. Now that I've closed up those 4 holes, I'll look for possible leaks elsewhere. Thanks for your help.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 25, 2017, 09:07:41 PM
Since Joline is in CA for a few days, I have taken the opportunity to make lots of noise and dust in the shop.

There are vent holes molded into the fiberglass body to relieve aerodynamic pressure but they needed to be cut out to make them functional.

I came up with a method to cut out the vents in the rear body and in the top of the front fenders. Here is how I am doing it:

First, I cut a template from a scrap of 1/16" aluminum that fit into the vent and then drilled 1/8” pilot holes near the ends and at regular spaces in between. These are used as pilot holes for a 1” hole saw. To prevent scarring the fiberglass, I covered the template with Blue painters’ tape. Since the holes are being drilled at an angle relative to the fiberglass, the holes must be enlarged from 1/8” to 1/4” is steps- otherwise the drill point will just skate around instead of following the pilot hole.

The 1/4” pilot drill that came with the hole saw was too short for using at this angle so I replaced it with a long one that I had. I also used the aluminum template for protection from the hole saw by taping it on the lower edge of the vent depression and then ran the hole saw through each pilot hole.

An el-cheapo Harbor Freight “air body saw” with a “coarse” 24TPI blade was used to make straight cuts between the holes. If you are careful, the cuts will be pretty good but they need to be finish-sanded to get the edges straighter. An on-sale HF “oscillating multi-tool” with a carbide abrasive blade gets into the edges of the vents and sands the fiberglass nicely. Painting the exposed cut edges will be a final touch.

The advantage of using a 1” hole saw for the end cuts is that it leaves a radiused hole instead of a square one which you would get by sawing all the way to the ends of the vents. This prevents cracking from long-term vibration.

Comments, questions, & criticism cheerfully accepted- as always.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 27, 2017, 07:06:05 AM
Welcome to my world Neil. :-D

You did good.

There is only one way to cut those slots and you aced it.

Looks neat. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 27, 2017, 09:51:36 AM
Thanks, Mike. As I've said before, working with fiberglass is not my favorite thing to do.

That 1/4" drill that I used for the pilot in the hole saw was overkill but it was what I had in my junk box.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on February 27, 2017, 10:25:49 AM
Junk box tools:  Yeah, they're in there and probably will be when your family auctions off the stuff after you've kicked the bucket, but ---  Isn't it great to use one of them, once in a while, and think to yourself "See?  I KNEW I should keep that when it broke/wore/failed!"

C'mon, admit it.  We've all done it. :roll: :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 27, 2017, 10:38:10 AM
Junk box tools:  Yeah, they're in there and probably will be when your family auctions off the stuff after you've kicked the bucket, but ---  Isn't it great to use one of them, once in a while, and think to yourself "See?  I KNEW I should keep that when it broke/wore/failed!"

C'mon, admit it.  We've all done it. :roll: :roll:

Yep, Jon, my junk box has saved the day too many times to count!

Someday Joline will have one heck of a yard sale! She'll probably sell stuff for $5 that's worth $1500.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on February 27, 2017, 02:24:37 PM
     I went to a yard sale once and on the table were two new unused Snap-On paint guns. I asked the gal running the sale how much and she said she's have to ask her husband and she yelled inside the hose and he yelled back five for both. She came back and said $5 for both. I took them home and let them sit on the bench for a week waiting for him to come and correct it. [I still have them and haven't had a paint project since, so they are still new.
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Podunk on February 27, 2017, 02:45:53 PM
When I'm gone I hope my wife doesn't sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on February 27, 2017, 02:52:03 PM
When I'm gone I hope my wife doesn't sell my stuff for what I told her I paid for it.

Same goes for race cars, Terry. It is why I don't keep receipts.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on February 27, 2017, 10:11:51 PM
Doug, I'll give you eight for 'em. Sight unseen. 60 percent profit is nothing to sneeze at.  :wink:  :cheers: Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on February 28, 2017, 08:55:41 AM
   Wayno, I suppose that includes shipping too.
  Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on February 28, 2017, 09:39:27 AM
+1...Patti  thinks I have about $20 K into my 3 window.............
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 28, 2017, 10:48:40 AM
I have Patti's email address!!!!!!!!! :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 28, 2017, 05:27:42 PM
I turned on my electric fuel pump yesterday and a spray of gas shot out of a fitting on my carb fuel log manifold. A close look showed that it was coming from around a 1/4" NPT threaded plug in the aluminum fuel log. When I tried to tighten it, the plug went all the way through the hole. I pulled out the plug and tried an American-made 1/4" NPT plug and it fit correctly (with sealant, of course).
I guess that plug was threaded 1/4" CPT......1/4" Chinese Pipe Thread.  :x

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on February 28, 2017, 10:17:56 PM
Gee, Doug. Can you just bring 'em to Speedweek? I mean the cost is just snowballin'.  :roll:      :cheers: Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 01, 2017, 08:00:58 PM
Still cutting out the air vent slots in my fiberglass body. Ever try to blow the shavings off while wearing a dust mask? Really makes you feel stupid!  :roll:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 03, 2017, 02:17:09 AM
Use the vacuum cleaner in close proximity. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 04, 2017, 07:28:35 PM
Good advice, Mike. I mover the rear body outside to let the breeze blow away the dust. One more set of rear vents to go.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 04, 2017, 07:30:18 PM
I called Bob Stroud a week or so ago and got his recommendations for a parachute & launcher. I'll order one very soon. The mounting should not be too difficult.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 08, 2017, 03:44:49 PM
This morning I made a cardboard template for a pair of spoiler “end plates” and cut one out of a piece of 0.090” 7075-T6 aluminum. These will be mounted on the top of the rear deck and will move the Center of Pressure aft a bit. These will also support the outer ends of an adjustable spoiler. The rule book restricts the size of a spoiler and its “end plates”, so I’m limited to this size.

Now I have to make a second fin.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 08, 2017, 09:44:30 PM
Good advice, Mike. I mover the rear body outside to let the breeze blow away the dust. One more set of rear vents to go.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

No itching I hope???. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 08, 2017, 10:13:08 PM
None! I was lucky. :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Ron Gibson on March 08, 2017, 11:12:25 PM
If possible, I move the part outside and use a squirrel cage fan blowing the same direction as the breeze to help the dust along. The fan seems to move enough air to keep the dust off me :-D. Works for carbon fiber too.

Ron
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 09, 2017, 12:19:57 AM
Ron, nothing itches like carbon. It makes glass look like baby powder.
You're right, blow the dust down wind. :lol:
I hate my job these days but I try work where I don't get full of the bad dust.
The big problem is the missus. She puts the "working" clothes in the washing machine
with everything else!!!!!!. You'd think she'd learned after all the years.
It takes me all of 5 seconds to figure out my socks and underwear are contaminated. :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 09, 2017, 07:02:56 PM
Neil, how close are you to finishing?.
I think you'll be bored once you're done!. :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 09, 2017, 07:35:50 PM
The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:

Your session timed out while posting. Please try to re-submit your message.
No subject was filled in.
The message body was left empty.

Something is screwed up.............
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 09, 2017, 07:37:08 PM
Small problem. Deal with it. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 09, 2017, 07:39:51 PM
Aggravating, though, Mike!

Next project: get my car out of storage and put it back on the road.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 10, 2017, 04:38:37 AM
Is that the road going version?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 10, 2017, 11:05:09 AM
Yes, Mike. The red Mirage is the street-legal version.

In fact, this one is their factory-built show car that Manta Cars used in all their advertising photos and it was on their showroom floor in Santa Ana, CA. I bought it in pieces when they went out of business and spent two years restoring it. It runs a Chevy 350 small block mid-engine.

It is hard to remember that this car is 35 years old. Manta Cars introduced their kit to the public at Riverside in 1973, originally calling it the "Can-Am" but the SCCA objected to using that name.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 11, 2017, 02:22:31 PM
I found some MS2001-12 hinges for my spoiler on eBay and they arrived yesterday. These should be plenty strong- extruded from 2024-T311 with 0.090"stainless pins. They measure 3 3/8" fully open. Now to get to work on the spoiler itself.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 11, 2017, 07:55:23 PM
I drilled 92 holes today (184 if I count the #30 pilot holes) in the hinges and the fin mounting braces. That's it for today!
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 11, 2017, 08:29:22 PM
I remember the Manta cars being in the magazines back in the early 70s.
It was pretty cool, wish I still had the mags.

There can't be too many Mantas left?. What trans did they use?. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 11, 2017, 08:41:52 PM
Mike;

I've heard that Manta Cars sold around 900 kits during their time in business but how many still exist is not known. Fortunately, there were enough made so that the Mirage body qualifies for Modified Sports. Manta essentially copied the McLaren M8 Can-Am body shape but made it into a closed-cockpit coupe rather than the original open-cockpit design. Its aerodynamics should be better than the original M8.

The Mirage was introduced in 1973 so there were not many choices of low-cost transaxles back then. The standard set-up was to use a late-model ('65+) Corvair transaxle with a Kelmark adapter to a SBC. Some builders have modified their cars to use Porsche, Hewland, Audi, and ZF transaxles.

Thanks, Rod. I think they should do the job. I drilled 92 holes today (184 if I count the #30 pilot holes) in the hinges and the fin mounting braces.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on March 12, 2017, 09:26:09 AM
    I'll bet that Goeffry Hacker at Forgotten Fiberglass could give some insight about how many are left. Lives in Florida.
  Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 12, 2017, 11:38:53 AM
Doug;

Unfortunately when Manta Cars went out of business all their records were lost or destroyed. No one knows for sure.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 14, 2017, 09:56:25 PM
I made some progress today on my rear spoiler. Since I didn’t have a piece of aluminum long enough to make it out of one piece, I had two pieces cut and I spliced them by riveting on a splice plate using the same type of 7075-T6 aluminum and the same rivets that I’ll use for attaching the hinges. I countersink those holes since the tops are in the airstream.
 
A long sheet of 0.090” by itself is not rigid enough to withstand downforce loads so I cut  lengths of 0.035’ 6Al-4V titanium “hat section” and riveted one to the underside of each half of the spoiler with 1/8" monel rivets. It increased the stiffness enormously! By looking at the attached photo, you can see why it is called a hat section.
 
Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 15, 2017, 09:16:44 PM
More progress on the spoiler today- lots of drilling & riveting. Made two support struts and mounting brackets as well as brackets to attach both end plates. I put in two 10-32 Rivnuts in each bracket so that the spoiler angle can be adjusted easily. Researched Gurney flap technical data so now I have a good idea of how much adjustment is needed.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 16, 2017, 11:25:12 PM
 carefully read through some of the JWAE  MIRA wind tunnel test data on a Porsche 917 that John Horsman shared with me. Surprisingly, the optimum down force-to-drag ratio occurred at around 5 degrees incidence. This is much lower than I would have guessed. JWAE ran their 917s on some very fast tracks, such as Le Mans and Spa, where its top speed was close to 240 mph so drag was important as well as down force. Another effect of increasing rear down force is that it creates a lifting moment on the front due to the leverage of the rear spoiler being behind the rear tires. As down force increased, it became more sensitive to yaw angle as well.
 
My research turned up a paper that stated a Gurney flap was most effective (down force-to drag ratio once again) at between 1% and 4% of cord- again, less than I thought.
 
I finished the spoiler this afternoon and laid it in the rear body to see how wide it looked. Both the body and the spoiler are upside down, just lying in there.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 17, 2017, 01:56:38 AM
On the F2 car the Gurney tab was only about 15mm tall and when you used it, it definitely had a big effect.
Probably the simplest, cheapest go fast goodie in aero. It works. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 17, 2017, 07:46:36 PM
 Today I got as far as putting the spoiler pieces in place to see how everything fits together. There is lots more to do- but I'll save that for tomorrow.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 21, 2017, 07:20:58 PM
I finished all the metalwork on my spoiler this morning and set up a couple of sawhorses outside to spray on a two-part zinc chromate epoxy primer like I used on my chassis. I wiped down everything with denatured alcohol to get it squeaky clean and got out my paint gun. When I opened "Part B", it was set up solid  :x there goes that idea. I did have a couple of spray cans of primer- one zinc chromate and the other a SEM self-etching gray. Unfortunately, both cans were close to being empty. Plunge ahead, regardless....

I sprayed the spoiler gray and the end plates chromate but with a breeze outside and very little primer to work with, the coating wasn't very cosmetic.  :-( It is a 35 mile trip into town to buy more primer so this will have to suffice.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 22, 2017, 08:43:58 PM
I had to drive into town anyway today to get my little dog, Doc, his rabies shot so I had a chance to restock my supply of primer. I also bought two cans of gloss black enamel. This afternoon I painted my spoiler black- a crummy job, even for a spray can-- but at least it matches the color of the car- black.

I ordered an adjustable HANS yesterday. My driver's position is pretty reclined and there was no fixed device that had an acceptable angle but the adjustable model should work. It should probably arrive on Monday.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 23, 2017, 12:25:05 AM
The spoiler looks good Neil.
It sucks when one of the parts has cured solid in the can.
BTW, whats going on with the right front fender well?.
Looks like a mold of sorts.

I'd really love to see that HANS device. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 23, 2017, 01:30:39 AM
I guess it does look peculiar, Mike, but it is just a piece of scrap polyethylene plastic I placed over the RF tire to keep the fiberglass dust off of it while I was cutting out the louvers.

We'll see how the spoiler works-- we'll see.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 25, 2017, 05:11:57 PM
I've made some progress on my rear spoiler:

I finished mounting my rear spoiler this morning. I decided to make it removable instead of riveting it to the fiberglass so it took lots of 1/4-28 bolts! I measured the spoiler angle at 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, & 15 degrees, marked the hole locations and drilled holes for bolts to set it at those angles. The "zero degree" datum point is the same angle as the slight upsweep of my rear bodywork.

I still need to make a body mounting bracket for each of the two support struts. I'll spread the load over a few square inches with a sandwich plate.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 25, 2017, 05:33:49 PM
Photo
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 25, 2017, 05:35:02 PM
Another photo
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 25, 2017, 05:38:47 PM
Sorry about doing this one photo at a time but right now two or more photos doesn't work.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 25, 2017, 05:40:04 PM
Detail
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 25, 2017, 05:41:07 PM
Mounting
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on March 25, 2017, 06:45:43 PM
Neil= as usual just blown away by the quality construction!!! However there is a feature of your spoiler that may run afoul of rule interpretation. That is the sort of tunnel coming off the top of the car to the back that will allow air to pass both above and below the spoiler. As I understand the rule, that makes it a wing, and therefore illegal. I freely admit I may be wrong (hope I am) on this but I think you better ask whoever is the /MS tech person or Dan Warner for an official ruling. :-(
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 25, 2017, 08:18:13 PM
I wondered about that but since the rulebook says I can't modify the rear body (only from the cowl forward) I left it alone. Maybe Dan or an inspector can chime in on this.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jl222 on March 29, 2017, 03:12:29 PM
Sorry about doing this one photo at a time but right now two or more photos doesn't work.

  Neil...the tunnel air going under the spoiler will negate the pressure difference between the high pressure above the spoiler
and the low pressure below, What ever the difference is multiply by sq inchs of spoiler for down force.
 
  Pain in the asx. but looks like you could move spoiler to tunnel level and pressure would work. You would have to trim some
off the top of side plates but your allowed 8'' below spoiler also.

                    Good luck jl222





                    
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 29, 2017, 04:37:53 PM
I may have to make a small block-off plate to stop that airflow. Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 29, 2017, 04:51:05 PM
Something strange -- can't post more than one photo at a time or it says "timed out"....etc.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ      off to NZ tomorrow  :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on March 29, 2017, 06:31:06 PM
I can't post a picture -- it says it's too big and I've resized it numerous times -- and it's under the limit.

No big thing, any way.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 16, 2017, 07:24:37 PM
We got back home from NZ last night and I found a recall notice from Simpson for my new helmet.  :-( I will call them tomorrow for a return authorization; it's a good thing that I kept the box that it was shipped in. The adjustable HANS arrived before we left on our trip.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JoshHefnerX on April 21, 2017, 04:09:29 PM
Just read through this build.  Pretty awesome - reminds me of Batman's ride only better!

I know this was a while back but you posted several times about the pickup points on the rear suspension - and how they weren't right.  I'm wondering if Porsche was counting the rubber compliance into the calculations on the pickup points.  Such that when they load up under use they change their camber/caster/toe curves on purpose.  The 2nd gen RX-7's did this they called it rear-steer.  Can't imagine an engineering company like Porsche didn't do it quite right but it's always possible.

Been a very interesting build - didn't see in your diary here, did you have any prediction or mark on what you're shooting for speed wise?

Josh
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 21, 2017, 05:13:23 PM
Thanks, Josh. I concluded the same thing about the Porsche geometry. Rubber bushings have enough compliance that they distort significantly when loaded; Porsche must have tried to compensate for that.

As far a speed goals- I just hope to drive a car that I built myself on the Bonneville Salt Flats. Setting a record is not really a goal for me but I would like to go reasonably fast. The R & P ratio in my G50 transaxle as it is now will limit my speed to about 190 @ 7500 RPM. I've found a source for a lower R & P so next year it should have a higher speed potential. For this year, it should be OK for getting my licensing passes, etc.

Actually, I feel like Burt Munro- just getting to Bonneville is a big milestone.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JoshHefnerX on April 21, 2017, 05:37:15 PM
I will say it's been enlightening to see your build.  I haven't gotten a rule book yet as I'm a couple of years away from starting my build yet but I'm surprised at the amount of safety requirements involved just to get to the 200mph mark. 

There's dozens of cars today that can make 200 right off the showroom floor.  And I know there's a big difference between them and something you've built but seeing how much you've had to add to your car in weight is kinda making me rethink my build.

Josh
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on April 21, 2017, 05:46:45 PM
Neil - I shudder to think how fast Burt would have gone had he had your stockpile of weapons-grade unobtanium and NASA cast-off parts in the corner of his shed!  :wink:


Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 21, 2017, 05:55:00 PM
Chris;

I watched "The World's Fastest Indian" on Air New Zealand on the way to Auckland. No doubt Burt would have gone to the moon with suitable supplies like those.  :-D

Josh;

It is time to get a rule book- even if your project is a couple of years away. It will give you a good idea of what is required in the various classes.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 21, 2017, 07:30:00 PM
Neil said: "The R & P ratio in my G50 transaxle as it is now will limit my speed to about 190 @ 7500 RPM." Neil you don't need another gear you need a 8500 rpm limiter chip! I helped Stu Van Dyne with Junior Kurtz's A/FS several years ago and it had a 499 in. BBC and it turned 85-8700 rpm every run and we made at least 6-8 runs and all we did was adjust the valves and check the timing.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 21, 2017, 08:03:33 PM
Rex;

 :cheers:  Yes, but this is a relatively mild- tune engine that I'm using to get the car sorted out. These heads only have stud- mounted rocker arms. BHP falls off over 7200 RPm fairly quickly with this engine. Banzai runs will be made with another Donovan block using Brodix heads with T & D shaft rockers. I'll feel more confident spinning that engine tighter.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on April 21, 2017, 10:20:39 PM
Neil - I shudder to think how fast Burt would have gone had he had your stockpile of weapons-grade unobtanium and NASA cast-off parts in the corner of his shed!  :wink:




The NASA cast-off parts really interest me. :wink:
I'd love to see some. Closest I get is watching the ISS
go past my place once in a while. :-D.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 21, 2017, 10:36:31 PM
I watch it, too.  8-) Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 01, 2017, 04:49:29 PM
Well, my entry form was mailed in over the weekend, so "the die is cast".

Just now the FedEx truck rolled up with my helmet. Although I had purchased it from Speedway Motors, I was notified by Simpson that they wanted to replace the chin strap on all of their Voyager II SA2015 helmets. They gave me an RMA to ship it back to Simpson and now it's returned in just a little over a week. Plus, they included a free silver face shield free.

Kudos to Simpson for doing this voluntarily and making the process painless, quick, and at no cost.  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 02, 2017, 10:37:43 AM
Cool move. That visor is nice...... and pretty pricey too. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 02, 2017, 12:52:35 PM
How about a pic Neil?. :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 02, 2017, 12:55:02 PM
A picture of the helmet, Mike? or..?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on May 02, 2017, 01:22:59 PM
I only order direct from the manufacture after getting burned on some almost out of date safety stuff in the past
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 02, 2017, 02:55:39 PM
A picture of the helmet, Mike? or..?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

With that cool visor please?. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on May 02, 2017, 05:08:38 PM
I only order direct from the manufacture after getting burned on some almost out of date safety stuff in the past
I just had this problem. Tag on some seatbelts was 08-13- and month/year of mfg not specified.
Went right back. If they can't give me up to date stuff, then MFG here I come.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 02, 2017, 05:48:47 PM
Sparky & Jack;

I agree- any vendor that tries to foist off old date code stuff on their customers is not someone I want to deal with.

Mike, here is a photo of my Simpson Voyager II helmet with its original clear shield. The silver shield does not have the mounting hardware yet but you can see what it looks like. Nice free gift from Simpson- $69.99 list price. I haven't peeled off the protective film yet or installed the HANS posts on the helmet.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 03, 2017, 06:17:15 PM
I gotta get one of those for my Simpson.
It's the right color IMO. Love it.

BTW, have you seen how loose the straps are on some of the F1 drivers
HANS devices are?. It won't have any effect in a hard hit. Just my 2C.

Your helmet looks great Neil. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on May 03, 2017, 08:27:08 PM
That helmet looks like it has a tall eye port.  Us bike guys like this feature.  Does it have one?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 04, 2017, 11:24:11 AM
Yes, the Simpson Voyager II has a tall eye port. That's one of the reasons I selected it, I wear glasses and it's easier to get them on with a taller eye port. It is also SA2015 so it will meet specs for some time to come.

 Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on May 04, 2017, 01:14:40 PM
. . . but it may not have the motorcycle certification (?).
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 04, 2017, 08:18:51 PM
Stan;

Possibly it does't; I'm not a bike guy so I was only concerned that it had an SA certification. Simpson might be able to make a recommendation.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 11, 2017, 06:22:20 PM
My adjustable-angle HANS arrived so I was able to mount the sliding tether attachment posts on my helmet. One more thing done.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 11, 2017, 07:30:36 PM
Some pics Neil????.

I'd love to see the HANS. Thanks.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 22, 2017, 05:06:28 PM
I mounted the rear body on its new pivot pins and found that my original stays (which support the rear body in the open position) were too long now. After adding a rear spoiler, the body opened so far that the rear of the spoiler end plates hit the ground. Arrgghh. I shortened the stays so it is now slightly above ground level.

I'm waiting for a call back from Bob Stroud so that I can place an order for a chute and spring launcher. My number decals should be here on Wednesday.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SteveM on May 22, 2017, 05:17:18 PM
Neil:

It looks like things are really coming together quickly now.

Can't wait to see it on the salt!

Steve.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 22, 2017, 07:10:44 PM
Thanks, Steve. I wish it were coming together even quicker but it is what it is.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 23, 2017, 09:30:41 PM
I'm cutting clearance holes in the seat tub for a 7-point safety harness and fitting the tub into the chassis. It wouldn't go far enough to the rear so I placed a wad of modeling clay on the fire bottle & T-bolt clamp fasteners to see where it was hitting. Sure enough, it looks like I'll have to cut about 3/4" off the threaded clamp fasteners; a small cut-off wheel is probably the best approach.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jdincau on May 23, 2017, 11:08:00 PM
Cant really tell, they look like the all metal oval hole type but be careful if the self locking nuts have elastic material it could melt.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Ray-Zee on May 24, 2017, 01:13:04 AM
great progress
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 24, 2017, 01:46:36 AM
Looking good Neil.
Making progress. :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on May 24, 2017, 08:25:26 AM
I'm cutting clearance holes in the seat tub for a 7-point safety harness and fitting the tub into the chassis. It wouldn't go far enough to the rear so I placed a wad of modeling clay on the fire bottle & T-bolt clamp fasteners to see where it was hitting. Sure enough, it looks like I'll have to cut about 3/4" off the threaded clamp fasteners; a small cut-off wheel is probably the best approach.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil, could you turn the mounts so the threads are facing the other way?

  Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 24, 2017, 11:21:24 AM
Jim;

I plan to temporarily replace the elastic stop nuts with ordinary 1/4-28 nuts when I cut the studs so there will be no problem from the heat. After cutting, removing the nuts over the cut ends will swage the threads back into shape. Then I'll replace the locknuts.

Don;

Moving the mounting straps would involve removing & replacing 20 rivets plus getting a wrench on the nuts facing backwards would be a bit more difficult. Good idea, though.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 24, 2017, 11:56:37 AM
Hey Neil, I guess you do know what you're doing. 8-)
These cars keep the brain working overtime.
I find I have to work 5 steps ahead all the time.
Tough deal but like they say if it was easy......... :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 24, 2017, 10:35:05 PM
Well, Mike, sometimes I wonder if I do....  :-)

Yay!!!

The Brown Santa brought my number decals today!  “291” is my car number, “BGMS” is my class- B Gas Modified Sports, and my name for the driver’s side door. The paper backing will be removed during application so the letters should contrast nicely with the black body.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: GH on May 25, 2017, 09:00:47 AM
Neil, I had "What Me Worry" on a 1953 Olds back in 1960.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on May 25, 2017, 09:08:54 AM
Neil, maybe should have bought a dash or slash so it doesn't look like blown gas modified sports  :|
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 25, 2017, 10:09:09 AM
No problem, Stainless -- Neil probly already owns a razor blade and some white shoe polish -- easy to fix up that set o' stickers and make 'em look more home spun, too :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 25, 2017, 11:00:36 AM
Stainless is absolutely right! I should have put a slash in there: "B/GMS" Oh well, Jon's idea of a razor blade will save the day.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on May 25, 2017, 11:03:48 AM
While you're at it, move the numbers a little closer together -- looks like there are some teeth missing there.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on May 25, 2017, 11:42:35 AM
Some yellow electrical tape and a red sharpie will make a hash line.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 26, 2017, 10:37:47 AM
I heard Jon was a "Sticker Licker"!!!!! :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 26, 2017, 12:40:06 PM
Well -- is that what they call it in SA?  I'll tell Nancy. . .
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on May 26, 2017, 01:16:54 PM
Don`t know Slim...I prefer NOT having to take the paper off first............. :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 02, 2017, 11:24:20 PM
Today I finished cutting holes in my seat tub for the safety harness. The green thing is a removable aluminum access plate so the inspectors can read the certs on the Halon automatic extinguisher mounted just behind the tub.

I also placed an order with Bob Stroud for a chute and a spring launcher.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 04, 2017, 08:40:45 PM
The four holes in the tub are to pass the straps of a DJ Safety 7-point harness. The single crotch strap chassis bracket is located just ahead of the tub so no extra hole was needed for that.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 05, 2017, 10:53:17 AM
That looks like a very nice part Neil.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 13, 2017, 09:41:34 PM
A belated thank you, Mike. I enlarged a couple of the holes in the tub to get better access for a wrench. I have the DJ Safety 7-point harness installed now. Coming up is fabricating a lateral helmet support.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on June 14, 2017, 12:05:56 AM
Neil, when I did my lateral head supports, I also added lateral shoulder supports feeling that if my head was fixed and my shoulders could move that wouldn't do much to promote my career as an upper primate in case of an incident.  :wink:
Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 14, 2017, 12:35:55 PM

Wayno;

Thanks for your comments; I thought about that but there is very limited space to enter/exit this cockpit so I have to be careful about blocking it any more than it is now.

My situation is not unique but the length of the shoulder straps from their attachment point to the point of my shoulder is very short- similar to most 'liners. This helps keep the body from much lateral movement (especially with a HANS device) and it is aided by the curvature of the seat which partially wraps around my rib cage up to under my armpits. Adding additional shoulder bolsters would be great but then I couldn't get into the car.  :-)

For helmet support I will fabricate two “arms” that attach to the firewall on either side of my helmet. They will be covered with energy-absorbing foam per SCTA rules. The outside one will be hinged so that it doesn’t hinder entry & exit.

My parachute was delivered yesterday by the Brown Santa. Now I need to design & fabricate a mount for the launcher.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 14, 2017, 06:31:18 PM
Neil:

Looking good. I am excited for you.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 17, 2017, 08:40:50 PM
I connected my transaxle shift linkage yesterday.

Question: what is an appropriate angle to aim my spring launcher? Straight back or aimed up somewhat? It seems as if pointing it up above horizontal would get it into the airstream quicker & more reliably. Suggestions??  :?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 23, 2017, 11:15:46 PM
I have almost finished the mount for my Stroud 'chute launcher. I need to drill some holes in the rear fiberglass and bolt on the 1"x1" 7075-T651 aluminum angle. The mount is held in place by quick-release ball lock pins so that it can be removed easily.

My new air cleaner arrived yesterday. I'll need to make a long hold-down bolt to secure the top in place. 

105F here today-- much cooler than the past two days!

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 24, 2017, 10:44:19 AM
I've tried four times to post pictures but this is what I get:

"Your session timed out while posting. Please try to re-submit your message.
No subject was filled in.
The message body was left empty. "

Arrrggghhh.............
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 24, 2017, 06:57:15 PM
Fifth try:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 25, 2017, 04:33:33 AM
All great looking stuff Neil.
I wish I was closer to get a first hand look. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 26, 2017, 07:15:36 PM
I finished mounting my 'chute launcher.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 26, 2017, 07:35:10 PM
A Stroud 'chute launcher has a long spring that must be wound up inside its "can". There is a 15/16" hex nut welded on the end of a shaft that winds up a nylon strap to compress the spring. Although a long speed wrench can be used, it isn't easy for one person.

I made a tool for winding up the spring that works quite well. A collection of China Freight stuff can be assembled into a tool that ratchets the spring down easily. I use a 15/16" deep socket with a short 3/8" to 1/2" adapter. Next, I drilled out the threads of a 1/2" hex nut to 7/16", slipped it over a short 3/8" extension and silver-brazed it on.

This deep socket fits over the big nut on the can and a 3/4" box ratchet wrench fits on the brazed nut while a 3/8" ratchet snaps on to the end.

To wind up the spring, the ratchet is turned while the wrench keeps it from turning backwards when the ratchet is turned back for another turn. Cheap & easy.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 26, 2017, 07:41:17 PM
What is gong on? Every time I try to post a photo I get this stupid message:


The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:

Your session timed out while posting. Please try to re-submit your message.
No subject was filled in.
The message body was left empty.
 
 
Subject:   


 :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 26, 2017, 07:57:11 PM
Neil, howzabout you send a pic that's bothering your system and maybe I can get it up there for you -- or maybe even figger out why it's making you feel like a klutz.  I don't think I've got the klutzoid software enabled, anyway.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 26, 2017, 09:06:47 PM
Russian Hack?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Podunk on June 26, 2017, 10:04:47 PM
Wouldn't that be fake news?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 26, 2017, 10:22:19 PM
Thanks, Jon- PM sent.

Russian hacking? Are we still using Hillary's server?  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 27, 2017, 06:53:21 AM
Here we have a saying that "Russians" give us heartburn!!!.
What are they?. Sausages. :-D :-D :-D

I know two Russians (not the edible type) and they are cool guys.
The only Hilary I know is a guy. :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 27, 2017, 07:58:07 AM
Neal:

Sorry for the hijack!

Now back to Chute Launchers, practical redesigned  tools to load said  Chute Launcher and other Mid-Engine Modified Sport build information!  :-)

Are  you using a long tow line?

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 27, 2017, 08:07:47 AM
Well, maybe youse guys can see these now.  Lemme try - I might hafta come back and farkle a bit.

Okay - it worked.  Now the bad news, Neil:  I didn't have any trouble getting these to show - and didn't do much fancy stuff to get 'em to display.  Maybe it's the weather where you are -- we've had about 4-6" rain in the past month and the pics were more malleable with the humidity. . .?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 27, 2017, 11:33:48 AM
BR;

Yes, I have a hole (chassis) in the nose of my car to clip in a karabiner on a long nylon tow line. I don't need a push bar since I have an on-board starter per the rule book for MS.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 27, 2017, 11:35:16 AM
Thanks for posting the pictures, Jon. You have good ju-ju, I guess I don't.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on June 27, 2017, 08:33:05 PM
Neil:

Let me rephrase that... are you using a long tow line on your parachute? If yes how long.

Bill
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 27, 2017, 10:02:36 PM
Bill;

Now I get it  :-P

I haven't measured it yet; I talked to Bob Stroud on the phone about my application and he asked for a picture of my car, how much it weighed and max speed expected, etc. and made a 'chute for me. I'll be practicing packing it soon and I'll measure it.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 02, 2017, 04:47:09 PM
The following error or errors occurred while posting this message:

Your session timed out while posting. Please try to re-submit your message.
No subject was filled in.
The message body was left empty.


Arrrggghhh.............................................  :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 02, 2017, 04:48:27 PM
The last few days I've been working on making the required lateral head (helmet) restraints. The right hand one will be fixed in place, bolted to the firewall but the left one needs to swing away to allow entry & egress to the cockpit. This one is more complicated to build but I have now finished both restraints and next I'll need to drill holes in the firewall to mount them solidly in place.
 
Depending on the measurements when in place, I can probably shorten both. I'll need to put SFI padding on the inside of both arms and a pad on the firewall where the back of my helmet contacts it.
 
Happy early 4th of July!
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 02, 2017, 04:53:05 PM
The elusive photo:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 02, 2017, 06:41:26 PM
That screams aviation but most of your components do.
How long to go Neil?. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 02, 2017, 07:35:07 PM
You are probably right, Mike. Maybe I'd even say "shrieks".

I plan to be at Speed Week next month with my car-- I need to go through tech inspection and then make a few licensing passes. No Banzai runs this year.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 02, 2017, 08:06:30 PM
Now that's good news. I can't wait and I hope it goes well for you?.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 02, 2017, 10:11:50 PM
I have my fingers crossed, Mike.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on July 02, 2017, 10:55:11 PM
Neil, if everything checks out during licensing runs, why not try a banzai run or two?

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 02, 2017, 10:56:43 PM
Maybe he's saving it for the Daytona 24 hour!!!!. :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 03, 2017, 02:49:19 AM
Neil, if everything checks out during licensing runs, why not try a banzai run or two?

John

Since this is a brand new car that has not run anywhere yet, the chances of nothing going wrong are pretty slim. We'll see, John.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on July 03, 2017, 09:03:17 PM
Neil, make as many runs as it will, drive it as hard and fast as you feel comfortable.... the license runs can be very telling about how things will go, by Wednesday you can run at will... if it gets boring waiting for the 5 to show up after you qualify for the long course you are gonna love it   :-D
See ya on the salt  8-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 03, 2017, 09:18:29 PM
Neil:

May I suggest, if the car is running good and you feel comfortable, run it like you may never make it back. In 2011 I thought I would be back next year but circumstances change and I have been spectating since then with plans on running in 2018. If I had know it would take me 7 years to get back... I would have run my car just one more time!

Just my 2 cents.

BR

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 03, 2017, 10:59:51 PM
Stainless & BR;

Thanks for your suggestions-- they are definitely some things to think about.  :-)


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 05, 2017, 08:18:33 PM
Since there was some question if my spoiler would be technically considered a "wing" since there was an open slot that air could pass through under a portion of its chord, I made a piece of HDPE to block it off. Now I think there will not be any question that it is a spoiler.

Having the experience and insight of all of you on this forum is deeply appreciated.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: CNC-Dude on July 05, 2017, 10:02:20 PM
I agree with the above, always drive a race car like you stole it, you never know when you'll get another chance at a place that's as unpredictable as Bonneville has been regarding weather and track conditions the last several years. Looks good!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 05, 2017, 10:50:24 PM
Thanks, Dude!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 06, 2017, 12:56:26 AM
Neil, just don't do the "Thatch Weave"!!!!. :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 06, 2017, 12:59:18 AM
Neil, just don't do the "Thatch Weave"!!!!. :-D :-D :-D

Aha! A classic naval aviation move. Good one, Mike!  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 06, 2017, 01:16:10 AM
I betcha Freud will weigh in next!!!. 8-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on July 06, 2017, 08:52:18 AM
I drove a 59` houseboat the length of Lake Powell once...My riders called the wake I left " Jerry Curls " :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 06, 2017, 09:21:46 AM
I drove a 59` houseboat the length of Lake Powell once...My riders called the wake I left " Jerry Curls " :cheers:

From Wahweap Marina to Bullfrog Marina is a long trip in a houseboat!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on July 06, 2017, 10:01:13 AM
Neil...We over shot Bullfrog and Dangling Rope...Right up to Dirty Devil Canyon and the signs telling us to turn back..Grand fun.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 06, 2017, 10:13:22 AM
Woah! That is a long trip. You must have had a BIG gas tank to go that far in a huge houseboat! My sister used to live just outside Page but she moved to Tucson last year. Nice lake!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 07, 2017, 02:47:43 AM
Neil, in regards to running the new car hard...it might be a good idea to run it flat out for the first timed mile and let it coast down early.  Then, when you get home take it apart and look at everything carefully to make sure the clearances are correct, etc.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on July 07, 2017, 11:53:41 AM
Neil, in regards to running the new car hard...it might be a good idea to run it flat out for the first timed mile and let it coast down early.  Then, when you get home take it apart and look at everything carefully to make sure the clearances are correct, etc.

WW, BS... there are no records and a lot of money spent to run hard for a mile and go home.  Neil's engine and car will be checked out by his licensing passes... if it is not right, he will know it... if it is he will be able to run it as hard as he pleases.  Racing once a year or so requires you do what you can, when you can...
If you are running to protect your motor, you are just driving....  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 07, 2017, 12:00:04 PM
WW & Stainless;

I can see logic in both your arguments; I guess I'll just decide what I'll do when the time comes....  :-P

Steve Anderson came here for a short visit to have a look at my car yesterday afternoon. He had a number of comments and good suggestions for me-- Thanks, Steve!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on July 07, 2017, 08:15:06 PM
Neil, what I am saying is not to limit the number of runs.  It is to shut off after the first timed mile.  Multiple shorter runs give a person more times to look over the externals to see problems.  Also, the multiple heating and cooling cycles give the new engine a chance to bed in tight clearances.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on July 10, 2017, 01:35:55 PM
Neil --

You might consider adding a Push Bar (2.1) even though with your front "hitch" may cover it -- it might be deemed as not "readily available".

Can't remember your gearing or trans., but a push bar is also nice to get off the starting line without blasting the starters with spray or stalling.

Stan
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 10, 2017, 09:24:20 PM
Thanks, Stan. I don't have time to fabricate a push bar that would be removable. That is necessary because my rear body hinges at the rear and would interfere with a push bar in place. Maybe later I can come up with something.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 10, 2017, 11:34:01 PM
That looks great Neil. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 11, 2017, 07:09:17 PM
I fired up my engine to check out a few things: 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVPRCPCw9hk&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 11, 2017, 07:09:45 PM
Neail:

Sounds angry and ready to run.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on July 11, 2017, 07:13:12 PM
 :cheers:

I'd be very tempted to wire up some brake lights, call my insurance agent, go to DMV (or whatever) a 30-day temp registration, and extensively road test it.  8-)

Mike
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 11, 2017, 07:42:07 PM
I'm sorely tempted.....  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on July 11, 2017, 09:26:44 PM
Hey Neil, it that thing will make it out of your neighborhood it is sitting too high  :-o  :wink:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 11, 2017, 10:01:18 PM
Hey Neil, it that thing will make it out of your neighborhood it is sitting too high  :-o  :wink:  :cheers:

It's my "low rider", Stainless-- great for cruzin' Speedway Boulevard on Saturday nights.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 12, 2017, 11:00:02 AM
Here is a longer engine run. I think that last blip hit the rev limiter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnU8BhHG-iM&feature=youtu.be

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 12, 2017, 11:10:59 AM
Just AWESOME!!!!!!!.
That made my day.
Thanks Neil.
You did a great job. Inspiration. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 16, 2017, 07:57:22 PM
Steve Anderson pointed out that I needed cockpit ventilation so I added a small NACA submerged inlet duct to get some fresh air in under aerodynamic pressure. It is a molded duct from Pegasus Racing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 16, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
Neil:

Sounds great.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 16, 2017, 11:50:21 PM
It is a molded duct from Pegasus Racing.


Never cheap, but I've also never encountered and "out of stock" situation with Pegasus.

The show room is as neat as a pin, they're open until 1:00 on Saturdays, and the staff is on a par with Stroud Safety and Smiths Pushrods.

And they have really hip salt and pepper shakers . . .

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=11541




Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on July 17, 2017, 08:37:10 AM
Neil- with the obvious quality of the work we have all been enjoying, there will be no "things go wrong".. Looking forward to seeing the car in a few weeks.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 17, 2017, 11:51:41 AM
Thanks, Jack, but Murphy's Law is never suspended-- things can always go wrong!  :-(

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Ron Gibson on July 17, 2017, 12:57:53 PM
Murphy's wife says Murphy was an optomist.  :-D :-D :-D

Ron
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 17, 2017, 01:20:50 PM
Looking forward to meeting you and seeing your "beast"!

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 17, 2017, 09:05:25 PM
Thank you, Rex. I'm looking forward to meeting you, too.
Mine is a shoe-string, no-sponsor effort- don't expect much.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 18, 2017, 08:09:16 AM
You're not alone Neil. :-D
Proud to know you. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on July 18, 2017, 10:06:01 AM
Mine is a shoe-string, no-sponsor effort- don't expect much.  :-P
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

I guess that description fits most of us, but the reasons to keep doing it far outweigh the costs.  As far as expectations....
I expect you to have fun
I expect you to be safe
I expect you to go fast as you want/can

Your years of building is about to come to fruition... enjoy the ride  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2017, 10:53:00 AM
Thanks-- I really am looking forward to being there.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 18, 2017, 07:08:54 PM
Mine is a shoe-string, no-sponsor effort- don't expect much.  :-P
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

I guess that description fits most of us, but the reasons to keep doing it far outweigh the costs.  As far as expectations....
I expect you to have fun
I expect you to be safe
I expect you to go fast as you want/can

Your years of building is about to come to fruition... enjoy the ride  :cheers:

I can't wait for you to say that me!!!!. That would be something. :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2017, 08:38:33 PM
I made a "Gurney Lip" (AKA wickerbill) for my spoiler and bolted it on. Crummy pictures but I was in a hurry.

I decided my Bowden cable throttle was a POS so I ordered a push-pull cable from Control Cables and it came in yesterday. Now to find a way to snake it from the pedal to the carb. Argghhh.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 18, 2017, 09:14:53 PM
Neil:

It is exciting, all of the work, the thought and the time. It will soon be all worth it. Just to build something unique and get to Bonneville is an accomplishment. Many think and dream, but few actually do it. The first rookie passes are the best and then when you are ready to let the horses run it will make everything worth while.

May I suggest you get someone to take a lot of photos.... As the driver, tuner and everything else you will be surprised how fast the days go by. I gave RAY the RAT a few bucks and he took some fantastic photos for me. If you don't have a GoPro, please go on eBay and buy a used Hero2 there can be had for around $50. If not PM me  your address and I'll loan you mine with some mounts. The videos are priceless when you get back home.

My 2 cents,

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on July 18, 2017, 09:36:07 PM
Replacing the cable was a really strong move Neil.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Your new setup will be much safer.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2017, 09:47:37 PM
Neil:

It is exciting, all of the work, the thought and the time. It will soon be all worth it. Just to build something unique and get to Bonneville is an accomplishment. Many think and dream, but few actually do it. The first rookie passes are the best and then when you are ready to let the horses run it will make everything worth while.

May I suggest you get someone to take a lot of photos.... As the driver, tuner and everything else you will be surprised how fast the days go by. I gave RAY the RAT a few bucks and he took some fantastic photos for me. If you don't have a GoPro, please go on eBay and buy a used Hero2 there can be had for around $50. If not PM me  your address and I'll loan you mine with some mounts. The videos are priceless when you get back home.

My 2 cents,

BR

Thank you- I know what you mean about the pictures. I was on the crew of a Can-Am M8C McLaren in '72 & '73 and I didn't get one darned picture of that car or any of the team. There was just too much work going on to take time to take photos. I'll check the GoPro on eBay. Thanks for your kind offer.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on July 18, 2017, 09:54:04 PM
With push pull cable don't forget the pedal toe strap. Extra safety along with the double springs.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 19, 2017, 10:51:06 AM
Jack;

I already have the toe strap and two throttle return springs. Now I only need to route the new cable.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 19, 2017, 06:49:05 PM
It is starting to look like a real race car. I ordered the vinyl decals from www.doityourselflettering.com. They are easy to apply and this company uses the good 3M vinyl.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 19, 2017, 06:52:04 PM
To prevent confusion over the "B", I cut the letters and put a space between "B" and "GMS".

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on July 19, 2017, 07:01:56 PM
Make a slash and put it there -- It would be more appropriate.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 19, 2017, 07:05:57 PM
Stan;

I would if I had any more decal material. I don't even have the ol' tried and true drag racing "white shoe polish."  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on July 19, 2017, 07:25:24 PM
You can buy colored duct tape at craft stores.  Many other uses.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 19, 2017, 07:26:34 PM
Good idea, Stan-- thanks!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 19, 2017, 11:17:45 PM
You can buy colored duct tape at craft stores.  Many other uses.

Stan - please, no, perish the thought.

Neil, if it is truly a concern, there are dozens of other options that leave less residue and clean-up.

In the AV business, we tend to have to deal with a lot of people who fancy themselves as stage hands.   

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVGS2r2WUAAWZ8R.jpg)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2017, 02:08:09 AM
 :-D  :-D  :-D  Thanks, Chris!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on July 20, 2017, 09:25:19 AM
Make a slash and put it there -- It would be more appropriate.
yeah, That`ll help...............
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2017, 09:47:53 PM
Better? ( I need to re- position it, though).

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 20, 2017, 09:53:43 PM
Much better  :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 21, 2017, 01:00:55 AM
In all honesty, if this is the biggest issue you've got going into Speedweek, you're not going to have any problems.  :-D

We will see you in a few weeks.

A close-up of this car - along with a certain small-bore lakester we've been watching - will be the highlights.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 22, 2017, 10:05:42 PM
I am almost finished with my swing-away lateral head support. In the photo, the support bar looks crooked but when it is bolted down to a flat surface, it is straight up. The bar is held in place by a 1/4" quick-release ball lock pin and to release it to swing away, a lanyard is pulled to drop out the pin. If I can find a good torsion spring, I'll add one (maybe a rat trap spring might work).

Regards, Neil  Tucson. AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 22, 2017, 11:25:20 PM
Just make sure it's locked into place before you slam the door - they can be hard on Lexan . . .

don't ask . . .  :|
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 23, 2017, 11:47:30 AM
I can believe that, Chris!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 25, 2017, 09:31:59 PM
My intake manifold has been modified for EFI but I'm currently running a Holley 850 DP so up to now I have been plugging the EFI bungs with injectors. The ID of the bungs measured only a few thousandths over 5/8", so I placed small 5/8" oil galley plugs into the bungs (they were a slip fit into the holes) and sealed them with silicone RTV.

The new push-pull cable throttle linkage is now installed and it is far smoother than the Bowden cable. Now off to work on other things.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: handyguy on July 25, 2017, 11:07:40 PM
If it wasn't for the details , the car would have been done last year !!   STEVE(http://)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on July 26, 2017, 08:02:50 AM
Neil, Those plugs will make great "blowoff valves" in case you ever float a valve or something like that.
  Doug, See you in a few.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on July 26, 2017, 09:48:04 AM
Neil, my concern.... if you have a backfire.... will you then have unconfined fuel around your engine?
Or give yourself a very lean condition that will kill your motor?

I think your plugs need to be confined, can you put a strap over all of them?
Maybe make aluminum plugs with an oring, and a blind threaded hole to strap them down like a fuel rail would on injectors. 
Don't remember if you had a lathe....

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 26, 2017, 11:20:13 AM
Stainless;

That's the reason I removed the injectors; they were held in only by their O-rings' friction. I'll try to think of a way to further retain the plugs without ruining the injector bung bores. I'd like to be able to convert it back to EFI some day.

No, I don't have a lathe. The extent of my "machine tools" is a drill press. And assorted hand tools.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on July 26, 2017, 11:41:38 AM
Stainless;

That's the reason I removed the injectors; they were held in only by their O-rings' friction. I'll try to think of a way to further retain the plugs without ruining the injector bung bores. I'd like to be able to convert it back to EFI some day.

No, I don't have a lathe. The extent of my "machine tools" is a drill press. And assorted hand tools.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Agree with Stainless. A strap across the plugs should be relatively easy to do. Injectors whether with fuel rail or individual hose supply are held down. If you were using a fuel rail there are usually a couple of straps somewhere that bolt to the manifold to hold in place. Injector bungs are usually 14mm IIRC so I am a bit surprised at the "few thou larger than 5/8 but that is neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on July 26, 2017, 03:37:03 PM
The injectors are normally held in by the fuel rail. When we weld in bungs for injectors we often have to put something at either end with which to anchor the fuel rail. Don't do anything to the bores where the injectors go. If you destroy the bore you'll probably destroy the ability to seal with the o-ring on the injector.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 26, 2017, 04:40:49 PM
There are different injectors with varying diameters, these are just a hair over 5/8". That is the larger diameter not the smaller diameter at the nose. I don't know who the manufacturer is. There are no brand markings.

Whoever welded on the EFI bungs didn't think that far ahead for a fuel rail- there is only one threaded boss that could be used for a hold-down. I'll think of something.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on July 26, 2017, 06:20:56 PM
I wouldn't be blaming the installer of the bungs, he only did what the customer asked him to. It's very possible that they figured on using a bracket held down by the manifold bolts to hold down the fuel rails. It takes very little force to anchor the fuel rail.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on July 26, 2017, 07:20:47 PM
Neil- often (my experience) the injectors do not have a mfg name on them. Usually there is a number of some sort. Many are copies of the original Bosch and are EV1, EV6 or EV14 designs. The electrical connector also varies with 2 types being usual. Most have O-ring to seal both the top and bottom and as I mentioned, 14mm orings are common but there may be others. Do you have injectors on hand?

Lots of folks will argue interminably about which will make more power- Injection (CF or EFI) vs a good carb. For LSR a carb is hard to beat though a good CF manifold may help flow distribution and clearly works well. Peak power and who cares about idle, mileage or part throttle. For emissions, mileage and etc features, can't beat EFI for sure. When comparing your situation where there are bungs in a carb manifold the airflow differences and port length differences may be tuned out or improved with EFI assuming you have the capability in the box to tune individual cylinders- and 8 O2 sensors on the dyno to do so effectively. Your engine sounds seriously healthy and I know this is your "test the car" engine with improvements planned. I wouldn't be too hasty to spend the time and money going to EFI. You will spend a ton (don't ask how I know that :) ) and may not make a real improvement. If you do decide to go that route, I personally wouldn't use that manifold but go to an IR setup to improve fuel/air distribution. As my brothers Latin teacher was fond of saying: "totus porkus aout noulis" (somehow I never took Latin so don't jump on me for the spelling which is undoubtedly wrong). It means "whole hog or nuthin' "  :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 26, 2017, 08:47:07 PM
Pete; Using manifold bolts is something that I had not considered- thanks.

Jack; These injectors may be Bosh- I'm not sure. They are 42 lb injectors. I don't plan to put EFI in this engine but it is a possibility for my street Mirage, a 350 SBC that presently has a Holley 650 and hydraulic lifters. I haven't had it fully apart so I don't know what cam Manta Cars put in it. It is a late '70s build with something non-stock.

If I do replace the 850DP on the race car I would go back to the Crower mechanical injection that I had on it before.
I really appreciate the advice and comments that I receive from you folks here on the Forum.

Does Bill Lattin speak lattin?   :-D :-D :-D

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on July 28, 2017, 12:08:39 AM

Does Bill Lattin speak lattin?   :-D :-D :-D


I'd ask a priest to translate that invoice . . .

I know - it's not Friday yet.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 30, 2017, 09:25:11 PM
I picked up my new trailer on Saturday and brought it home. It is a Jim-Glo 18' aluminum tilt-bed trailer. Not the best for towing on salt but it will get a very serious wash-down after Speed Week. I chose this trailer because it can load cars with a low ground clearance. The bed tilts to an 8.5 degree "ramp" angle (there are no ramps needed) so the problem with scraping the chassis on the trailer or ramps is eliminated.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on July 30, 2017, 09:39:05 PM
Nice

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on July 31, 2017, 04:36:15 AM
Yes, nice Neil. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on July 31, 2017, 09:01:34 AM
Actually the AL will probably hold up better than steel.  The AL rails on our trailer have outlived 1 trailer and working on the second...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2017, 11:57:11 AM
That is encouraging, Stainless. This trailer was expensive so I want to take good care of it!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on July 31, 2017, 02:52:39 PM
5000 series aluminum is very resistant to salt water and readily fabricated. It's commonly used in boat hulls and trailers. The only places to watch are where it interacts with steel.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on July 31, 2017, 03:45:22 PM
  Neil, Are the deck plates screwed down to the frame crossmembers?
  Doug
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 31, 2017, 03:52:39 PM
Yes they are, Doug.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on August 01, 2017, 09:46:30 AM
I'm looking at the profile, and I expect the car won't be sitting any taller than the bed of the truck.

You probably won't even know you're trailering something.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on August 01, 2017, 04:08:13 PM
  Neil, Just something to watch. We tow with a Sloan rollback. After the first year when we got home from the Salt we noticed that several of the screws had worked loose and a couple had the heads snapped off. We run a fairly heavy car , a Jag XJ-6 and the flex of the deck had worked the screws out. That year it had also rained and we had to drive through about a foot of Salt water to get to the pits and what we found when we got home was that the cross members were full of Salt water that could not get out. Also the bottom plates at the loading end are sealed up making a little reservoir about 2 feet square that holds lots of Salt water. Not trying to scare anybody, but something to watch.
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 01, 2017, 05:57:00 PM
Thanks, Doug. My car weighs only about 1950 lbs so I doubt that the trailer deck will be doing much flexing. I'll watch out for trapped salt water- thanks for that suggestion.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on August 18, 2017, 11:32:53 PM
Neil, what problems did you have with tech?

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 19, 2017, 11:24:45 AM
John;

There were a couple of problems that I knew I needed to correct. The major ones were the cockpit ingress/egress and getting my fire bottles' certs up to date. When I started this project, I could get in & out of the car OK, not easy but OK. As the safety requirements were added, it caused problems. An SFI-20 fire suit added bulk but the HANS device, larger SA2015 helmet, and lateral head supports all together made it too hard the get in & out when suited up. If I had all that required stuff when I was building the chassis I could have allowed for it. I couldn't find anyone here locally at the last minute to certify my Halon bottles. I also needed to get a new window net-- my off-the shelf rectangular net was too short and wasn't a good fit in the door opening. My fault entirely.

I fabricated a stainless firewall that covered the rear roll cage hoop and extended to the bottom of the chassis but Tech said that it needed to extend out to the inside of the bodywork. There was also some question as to the rectangular tubing I used in the chassis. I need to send photos of my bare chassis to inspector Mikey. Does anyone have his e-mail address? Mikey tried to get Lee Kennedy over to my pit to have a look but he didn't make it.

I've tried to build my car as a dual-purpose track day/LSR car, not to set records but to have fun with. I hope I can satisfy the SCTA rules without totally compromising the track potential.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: kiwi belly tank on August 19, 2017, 02:00:13 PM
Sorry to hear you didn't get to run Neil, like so many of us I know you've put your heart & sole into it. I also built my liner chassis before the head & neck rule & had to go back & make changes to accommodate it.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jl222 on August 19, 2017, 02:02:26 PM
  I think I was the only one here that complained about the Hans device being a trap when the original rule was made. And if anyone noticed, Hans made a design change to a shorter style. Must have got plenty of complaints
about hang ups on roll cages.
 
 Then with the lateral head support we have a hard time getting in and out. But we did make the bailout.

  The Nexgen release on one side didn't release on one of my runs and luckily wasn't and emergency.

   Anyhow I used to feel comfortable before these rules now I feel trapped.

  Checking out cars in line I noticed one roadster who's head restraint couldn't possibly be long enough to go to front edge of helmet.

                       JL222
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gray63 on August 19, 2017, 03:40:53 PM
John;

There were a couple of problems that I knew I needed to correct. The major ones were the cockpit ingress/egress and getting my fire bottles' certs up to date. When I started this project, I could get in & out of the car OK, not easy but OK. As the safety requirements were added, it caused problems. An SFI-20 fire suit added bulk but the HANS device, larger SA2015 helmet, and lateral head supports all together made it too hard the get in & out when suited up. If I had all that required stuff when I was building the chassis I could have allowed for it. I couldn't find anyone here locally at the last minute to certify my Halon bottles. I also needed to get a new window net-- my off-the shelf rectangular net was too short and wasn't a good fit in the door opening. My fault entirely.

I fabricated a stainless firewall that covered the rear roll cage hoop and extended to the bottom of the chassis but Tech said that it needed to extend out to the inside of the bodywork. There was also some question as to the rectangular tubing I used in the chassis. I need to send photos of my bare chassis to inspector Mikey. Does anyone have his e-mail address? Mikey tried to get Lee Kennedy over to my pit to have a look but he didn't make it.

I've tried to build my car as a dual-purpose track day/LSR car, not to set records but to have fun with. I hope I can satisfy the SCTA rules without totally compromising the track potential.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,  It was good to visit with you again at Bonneville.  This is the first time that I have seen the car and It was every bit
as good as I knew it would be. I hope that you will resolve your tech issues and compete next year. It was good to see you
as always.
PS   maybe I will bring John Sabel with me next year.
Dave Gray
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on August 19, 2017, 09:34:52 PM
Neil:

Sorry to hear that. Tech is tough out there but for the right reasons. I am sure they have seen a lot of seriously flawed fab work over the years.

Car looks great in the picture.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on August 19, 2017, 11:28:41 PM
  I came by but you were gone. Sorry I missed meeting you. The car is absolutely as nice as I had pictured as I watched the build over the years. Nice work.
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on August 20, 2017, 12:09:19 AM
Neil,  I look forward to seeing and heazring your
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 20, 2017, 06:15:39 PM
John;

There were a couple of problems that I knew I needed to correct. The major ones were the cockpit ingress/egress and getting my fire bottles' certs up to date. When I started this project, I could get in & out of the car OK, not easy but OK. As the safety requirements were added, it caused problems. An SFI-20 fire suit added bulk but the HANS device, larger SA2015 helmet, and lateral head supports all together made it too hard the get in & out when suited up. If I had all that required stuff when I was building the chassis I could have allowed for it. I couldn't find anyone here locally at the last minute to certify my Halon bottles. I also needed to get a new window net-- my off-the shelf rectangular net was too short and wasn't a good fit in the door opening. My fault entirely.

I fabricated a stainless firewall that covered the rear roll cage hoop and extended to the bottom of the chassis but Tech said that it needed to extend out to the inside of the bodywork. There was also some question as to the rectangular tubing I used in the chassis. I need to send photos of my bare chassis to inspector Mikey. Does anyone have his e-mail address? Mikey tried to get Lee Kennedy over to my pit to have a look but he didn't make it.

I've tried to build my car as a dual-purpose track day/LSR car, not to set records but to have fun with. I hope I can satisfy the SCTA rules without totally compromising the track potential.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,  It was good to visit with you again at Bonneville.  This is the first time that I have seen the car and It was every bit
as good as I knew it would be. I hope that you will resolve your tech issues and compete next year. It was good to see you
as always.
PS   maybe I will bring John Sabel with me next year.
Dave Gray

Dave, It was good to see you, too. I hope John Sabel can make it to Bonneville with you next year. I think he would really enjoy it!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on August 20, 2017, 10:00:09 PM
Neil, I can relate to all of what you said. Most of my time, lately, is consumed with meeting letter and intent of rules. I am going so far as to send tech pictures of areas I have questions or doubts about. Tech people have been very helpful with this process and so far, feel comfortable with progress made. But the final analysis will come when I suit up fully, climb in the car, strap in, close and lock the canopy, then see if I can get out under my own power. If not, I become a crew member instead of a driver.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 21, 2017, 01:20:49 AM
Does anyone have the e-mail address of Mikey the inspector? I owe him some photos.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: vintageracecar on August 24, 2017, 01:35:45 AM
PM sent !!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on August 24, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Neil, I'm shocked that your car never made it through tech.
We all check out the build diaries full time and your project is top of the pops.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 26, 2017, 12:08:26 PM
Last night Joline and I watched the second episode of "Counting Cars"- the two-part one about the Turbinator- and at about 26 minutes into the program we about fell off the couch! There was my car, close-up, full frame for about 2 seconds!  Whaddya know!  :-D  Fortunately, we had recorded that show.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jruff5585 on November 13, 2017, 03:06:51 PM
Can I ask where you got the car and did it have corvette steering in the front?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 13, 2017, 04:41:36 PM
Jruff:

I built this car over a period of quite a few years.

No, no Corvette steering but it does have '88 Corvette brake calipers. The steering is a Flaming River Ford Pinto rack & pinion. This car is made up of many, many different bits & pieces from various sources.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jruff5585 on November 13, 2017, 06:44:43 PM
I was asking because I sold one in black factory primer years ago it had a c4 steering setup
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 13, 2017, 07:09:15 PM
Jruff;

There are many versions of a Manta Mirage that have been built. Each builder has his own ideas of what works best. If yours was a factory black gelcoat body, it was a special $500 option.

I bought this body from a fellow here in southern AZ and built the chassis and suspension. I'm running a 383 Donovan aluminum block driving a Porsche G50 transaxle turned upside down.

Here is a slide show of my build in approximately chronological order. I made lots of changes as I went along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a37BOJTHtXs

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Jruff5585 on November 14, 2017, 03:31:12 PM
Good looking car, nice build. Mine is #120 on the register. I never got to finish the car due to a divorce but it was well worth it. :lol: I also had a Montage with a Mazda rotary adapted to a VW Tranny, boy that was a fun car.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 14, 2017, 03:52:06 PM
Jruff;

That Montage with a Mazda rotary must have been a rocket ship.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jpm49c on November 17, 2017, 05:48:04 PM
Saw the car at Goodguys today, but no Neil. Maybe catch him tomorrow, John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 17, 2017, 06:43:16 PM
We had to leave to take care of some business. The car will be parked in the home built Heaven area tomorrow hope to see you there John. Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 19, 2017, 07:08:08 PM
Saturday was great. Lots of folks wandering by asking "What is it? How fast will it go?" Sunday morning, I forgot and left the battery switch on overnight, so this morning the starter goes "clunk" and no jumper cables. Sunday attendance was way down so we hooked up the trailer and came home early today. I saw Sparky on Saturday.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on November 19, 2017, 08:35:26 PM
Hey, Happy Birthday Neil.    :cheers:

 Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 19, 2017, 08:52:04 PM
Thanks, Don.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on November 19, 2017, 09:05:23 PM
Your Birthday again  :-o
Happy Birthday
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on November 20, 2017, 09:57:41 AM
They just keep sneaking up don't they!  :-o :-o :-o :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Neil, are you chasing your page count? Nearly 100! :-o :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 20, 2017, 11:04:36 AM
Thanks Stainless & Woody. Funny, I don't feel a bit older today than I felt yesterday! I think my page count is ahead of me....so far.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on November 28, 2017, 06:42:40 PM
Happy belated Birthday Neil. :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 28, 2017, 08:35:58 PM
Thank You, Mike.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on November 28, 2017, 10:20:15 PM
Have a Happy Birthday
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 03, 2017, 11:26:11 AM
A friend gave me an old postcard from 1937 showing salt removal. Bonneville?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Buickguy3 on December 05, 2017, 08:29:03 AM
  Neil, I couldn't resist sending this picture that I just saw on that Face site. Maybe there's hope if they don't like your chassis on the Salt.
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 05, 2017, 10:14:48 AM
Good grief,.a twin engine Lamborghini.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Sumner on December 05, 2017, 11:02:50 AM
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4045.0;attach=58101;image)
A friend gave me an old postcard from 1937 showing salt removal. Bonneville?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Possibly, but my guess is that it was taken at one of the places near SLC that have evaporation ponds and harvest those,

Sumner
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Ron Gibson on December 06, 2017, 10:08:15 AM
The print says 10 miles west of SLC.

Ron
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 12, 2017, 11:53:50 AM
Just for fun we trailered my car up to Scottsdale for the GoodGuys car show last month. I unloaded the car and drove it to the registration area. After collecting my paperwork I started the engine and drove it over to the display area and parked it there for the day. Only two or three people knew what it was; not surprising since it is primarily a street rod show. I left it parked overnight but forgot to switch off the battery. The only thing that was powered up overnight was a small 12V indicator light but in the morning I tried to start the engine and only got a loud "thunk". Later that evening I got a pair of jumper cables but it still only went "thunk". Uh-oh, bad starter.

After getting the car home and into the shop, I pulled off the starter and tried it with a battery-- it spun just fine! I tried to turn the ring gear with a big screwdriver but it wouldn't budge. I could turn it in the opposite direction, though. I also then saw that the oil level in my wet sump looked about a quart or two higher than it was before. Now I think I know what the problem is- gas drained from the Holley down into the engine and past the rings into the pan. A cylinder was probably hydraulically locked so the starter couldn't turn it over. I pulled the plugs (they were totally black)  to let the gas evaporate while I was back in Nashville for a week (flying back to Tucson this afternoon). When I get home I'll re-install the starter and check that the engine will turn over. Obviously it was running WAY too rich so fuel was leaking somewhere.

The mystery to me is "how did all that gas get into the intake manifold?" The electric fuel pump was not left running (unless someone was fooling around with the switches after we left for the evening) and the fuel tank pickup is much lower than the carb so it could not have been syphoning gas. The needle and seat may have been leaking around the o-rings but does that cause the fuel bowl to empty out with the fuel pressure shut off? Hmmm.....

Suggestions are welcome as to what may be going on.

Regards, Neil  Nashville (for now)

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on December 12, 2017, 08:28:56 PM
A water leak? It will it turn over with the plugs out?

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 12, 2017, 08:49:33 PM
I'll check that when I get home, John.

Regards, Neil.  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: desotoman on December 13, 2017, 02:07:50 PM
Neil,

You have a PM.

Tom G.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 20, 2017, 08:12:51 PM
I pulled all the plugs and let the car set while Joline & I were back in Nashville visiting relatives. I hoped that any remaining gas in the cylinders would evaporate while I was gone. Today cranked the engine without the plugs and it spun just fine so I pulled off the primary fuel bowl (it was dry  :? ), replaced the needle & seat with a new Holley part, and dry- set the float level. I did the same thing with the secondary fuel bowl- it was full of gas. The secondary needle & seat o-ring was buggered so I replaced it with a new Holley N & S and dry-set the float level in it, too.
Maybe tomorrow I'll have time to re-install the plugs and fire it up. I'll look carefully to see if I see any gas dripping from the primaries.

What power valve (" Hg) does anyone run in their Holley primary?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on December 21, 2017, 01:16:46 AM
Check the oil quality before you start... is it overfull with gas...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 21, 2017, 11:06:17 AM
Thanks, Stainless. It sure is- I'll drain the oil & re-fill it before starting the engine.

Interestingly, it was common practice in the olden days to use an "oil dilution" system to mix gasoline into the oil before shutdown on aircraft engines in very cold temperatures. When the engine was restarted, the oil was thin enough to circulate and as it warmed up the gas evaporated out of the oil and it became its normal viscosity.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WhiskersMagee on December 27, 2017, 12:32:56 PM
Great progress love you car
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 27, 2017, 07:50:31 PM
Thank you, Magee.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 18, 2018, 06:12:49 PM
Its been a while since I posted anything, so this brings things up to date.

I took my car down to the Tubac car show on the 27th of January. Tubac is a location of one of the original Spanish Missions in southern Arizona. The show cars are driven on to the Tubac Country Club golf course and displayed there.
 
I loaded my car on its trailer the day before the show and put 2 gallons of 100LL av gas in the tank, thinking it would be more than enough for the short drive from the trailer unloading area to the golf course. Early the next morning I towed my trailer to Tubac and unloaded the Mirage, started it up and drove it a short distance to where a line of cars were waiting to get on to the golf course. There was a delay in driving on to the grass because there was frost and the club did not want to have cars damage the grass. After the sun warmed everything up, the line of cars began to move and I fired up the engine and joined the long line. I drove about a hundred yards and the engine quit. It turned out that I had developed a small leak in my fuel cell bladder and most of the gas had leaked out overnight. By the time I started it up that last time, it was running only on what fuel was in the carburetor float bowls.
 
The staff kindly towed me down to a spot close to the entrance on to the field.....no way was I ever going to make it up their short ramp over the curb on to the grass. It was just as well that it quit where it did. The organizers did suggest that I could load the car back on to the trailer and they would show me a back way on to the course, and I could leave the car on the trailer and park the whole rig in the “special interest” area. That worked; I was in a row with a Chris- Craft wooden speed boat and an Airstream Bambi travel trailer... There was quite a bit of interest in the Mirage and a number of favorable comments from people who I respect. To answer most questions people have had in the past, I made up a sign that explained the car's main points.
 
It was a disappointment not to be able to drive my car on to the course but it was still an enjoyable and worthwhile day. I ordered a replacement ProCell bladder from Fuel Safe and it arrived within a few days. Now to install it... lots of stuff needs to be removed to do that.  :-(  I also received my new set of race tires last week; now I need to have the old Goodyears removed and the Hoosiers mounted & balanced.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on March 19, 2018, 09:00:44 AM
Sounds like a fun day of elbow rubbing w/ the tea and crumpet set Neil...I have a fond memory of being at Meadowbrook when Buck Boudeman (now gone) won his class with his NOVI..and drove it across the stand to receive it`s ribbon. Lord what a sound. Second only to Al Bergler lighting up The " Motown Shaker" fuel funny car and rattling ice cubes out of Patti`s drink. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 06, 2018, 07:54:43 PM
I have pulled out my firewall in preparation to extend it out further, per inspectors last year, and there is a lot of that red goo that was used to seal gaps still remaining. Most large blobs can be peeled off but there is still some residual sealant left on the chassis tubes. This is 3M Firestop; does anyone know what can be used to wipe this stuff off clean?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 06, 2018, 08:02:51 PM
I was wrong; it is actually "3M™ Fire Barrier Sealant CP 25WB+", not "Firestop".

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 07, 2018, 10:35:13 AM
Looking great Neil. Thanks for the update. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 07, 2018, 05:15:14 PM
Thanks, Mike.

No suggestions were forthcoming so I called 3M and they suggested acetone or other solvents. I had a can of toluene so I tried it and it worked reasonably well. The 3M data sheet states that tools can be cleaned up with water but that is before the stuff dries (cures?). After it dries into a solid, rubbery bead water doesn't clean it off. What doesn't peel off with your thumbnail can be cleaned with toluene or acetone and, presumably, MEK.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 09, 2018, 12:16:24 AM
Happy you found a solution. Rubber is hard to get rid of. :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 13, 2018, 06:10:13 PM
As I mentioned before, during the Green Valley car show in February I noticed that I had a fuel leak. It had to be a leak in the fuel call bladder so I ordered a new one from Fuel Safe.
 
This week I drilled out about 100 rivets that secured an aluminum cover plate to the chassis on the right side pod where the fuel cell was located. Removing the aluminum container box top cover, I could immediately see why it was leaking. The bladder material was past time to replace it.
 
I’ll exchange the access plates and put the new bladder in and re-rivet the cover plate this week.
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on May 13, 2018, 10:51:59 PM
This stuff never seems to stop.
Maybe it has to do with the cars being
used so seldom?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 14, 2018, 10:33:49 AM
It's always something, Mike.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on May 14, 2018, 12:00:02 PM
"it is always something" :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 19, 2018, 08:17:13 PM
The flapper valve on the bottom of the access cover of my fuel cell was too deteriorated to use again so I needed to replace it. This is a thin flap of rubber that is flexible enough to let fuel enter the tank but when inverted, it seals the opening- a big check valve. Replacement flappers were surprisingly hard to find but I found an internet source for a sheet of Viton rubber, 6” x 6” x 1/16” and ordered it.

It cut easily with a sharp pair of scissors so I used the old one as a template and cut out a new flapper. I installed it using the original bolts with nylon sealing washers. To make a more positive seal, I used Hylomar on the bolt threads and washer surfaces. Good as new.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 05, 2018, 07:59:37 PM
During tech inspection last year, it was pointed out that my firewall needed to extend all the way out to the inside edges of the bodywork. I've finished an extension that will bolt to the main firewall (removed in this photo) and it will be sealed with 3M Fire Block. Now to get busy building one for the left side!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on June 11, 2018, 09:03:16 AM
for a moment there I thought I was looking at a Ferrari P 3 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 12, 2018, 10:53:01 AM
for a moment there I thought I was looking at a Ferrari P 3 :cheers: :cheers:

Thanks ... Ferrari P3, one of Enzo's prettiest race cars!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on June 12, 2018, 02:35:56 PM
indeed they were....Sadly,  Scuderia shields on the Suburban would be as close as I will ever come :cry:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 12, 2018, 10:24:40 PM
Today I finished my left side firewall extension. I had a rear brake proportioning valve mounted on the top surface of my left side pod that would be covered by the new panel so I had to add a round access plate in it so I can get my hand through to adjust the valve. It is held in place by three SS 10-32 screws and a SS prevailing- torque nut plate. Those little nut plates are a PITA and add more work but I think they will be worth it in the long run.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 15, 2018, 09:49:06 PM
I cleaned the panels with denatured alcohol and sprayed them with a can of 2-part polyurethane. After this paint cured hard, I riveted in floating nut plates as can be seen in the attached photos. Next I’ll rivet the nut plates on the right side firewall extension.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 19, 2018, 07:26:36 PM
The final step to finishing my firewall extensions were to add an additional layer of fire protection to these panels, similar to what I've done on my main firewall. It is a woven ceramic fiber textile with a thin aluminized backing. This provides a little thermal insulation but its main function is to be an additional fire barrier.
To test it, I fired up a small MAPP gas torch and heated the fiber to red heat. As you can see in the photo, it did not burn through. Moving the torch closer, it did finally burn through at an orange heat. I'm satisfied that installing it will be worthwhile. I cut the fabric to size and bonded it to the panels with red silicone RTV.
Now to re-install the main firewall and then add the extensions. I'll seal the whole thing with a tube of 3M Fire Barrier Silicone Sealant 2000+ that I bought from Aircraft Spruce. I hope it will be easier to apply than the red 3M Fire Barrier CP25WB+ that I used previously.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 19, 2018, 07:36:15 PM
My exhaust headers were beginning to show some signs of rust even with the limited time that I've run the engine. My first plan was to take them to Phoenix to get a Jet-Hot coating applied. Unfortunately the Phoenix Jet-Hot office was shut down and it would have been necessary to send then all the way back to the East Coast Jet-Hot office. They quoted me a price of $900 (not including shipping) so I started looking elsewhere. Some racers had successfully used a high temperature coating called Cerakote so I searched the Internet and found an applicator here in Tucson. The price was $225 for these long-tube headers. I look forward to seeing how this holds up.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 19, 2018, 11:07:57 PM
It might reduce the temperature in the engine compartment.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 20, 2018, 12:43:31 AM
WW;

That would be a welcome effect!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on June 20, 2018, 05:10:58 PM
All R&D hey Neill. It never stops. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 20, 2018, 09:43:18 PM
You are right about that, Mike!

Here is how the left side firewall extension looks now. It will be covered by bodywork when I put things back together.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 23, 2018, 10:27:57 PM

I updated my project’s “build diary” on YouTube and replaced the previous version’s music soundtrack with a recording that I made at the 1,000 kM ADAC sports car race which was held at the Nurburgring in 1963. This original tape recording was made with a “Butoba” German battery-operated portable tape recorder. Its drive motor was a mechanical spring-wound flyball-governed motor that I had to wind with a folding crank handle now and then. There are two announcers that can be heard- one speaking in German, followed by an English announcer. The Nurburgring is a very long circuit (back in 1963 it was longer than it is today); sports cars of that era required about 9 minutes to complete a lap on this old “Nordschliefe”, dubbed “The Green Hell” by Jackie Stewart.
 
The pictures are not in strict chronological order but they are close. As you can see, I changed things as I went along and when I thought of better ways of doing things. It’s a long video but you can scroll forward if you like. Work is on-going.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Iq3Om7TvA&feature=youtu.be
 
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on June 24, 2018, 12:09:38 AM
I think it's looking pretty darned nice, Neil.  :cheers:

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 24, 2018, 12:32:54 AM
Thanks, Mike. This is a never ending project!  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 01, 2018, 08:39:42 PM
Two days ago I was checking to see why my tach was not working and found that my battery was going open-circuit under load. Click the starter button and everything went to zero volts. Off to Costco to buy a new 24F battery. In accordance with the SCTA rule book my battery is in an enclosed box (since it is mounted in the cockpit) and I put it far forward in the right side foot well for weight balance. If I ever build another car I'll pay more attention to accessibility...  :cry:  Anyway, a new battery in now installed and the electrical system is now working normally- except the tach. I think it's NFG.  :x  I ordered a new one but we'll see if it arrives in time. Otherwise, it's calculator time to relate RPM in gear to GPS speed.

As long as I was working on my electrical system, I made up a matching cable for the auxiliary power connector that I had already mounted in place. This way I can plug in the connector and connect the jumper cable to an external battery for starting, charging the on-board battery, etc. The military current rating for this connector is 750A so it can easily handle the current of starter.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 01, 2018, 11:32:54 PM
The military current rating for this connector is 750A so it can easily handle the current of starter.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Or a discotheque.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 02, 2018, 01:29:51 AM
We can even refine aluminum.  :-D

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: AJR192 on September 19, 2018, 11:02:00 PM
So you are awfully quiet Neil.... Tell us how WoS was for you, please...
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on September 20, 2018, 08:44:45 AM
Yo Neil....your power plug reminds me of a pal  that is an A/P tech...One of his fellow techs  pulled a Gulfstream 550 out of the hanger with the aux. power hooked up and bent the lugs...$55,000 for the replacement plug. Ouch.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 20, 2018, 10:30:03 AM
That's high tech Neil. Fitting for your project.
I love the aviation stuff. Closest I got was helping
my brother in law skin a cargo door off a business jet.
How come my rivets never dimpled the surface?????. :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 20, 2018, 12:01:57 PM
We had a problem with a bad diesel fuel leak on our tow truck on the way to WOS and had to leave it with a Dodge dealer in Henderson (Las Vegas) to fix. To continue, we rented a pickup from U-Haul and transferred all our gear and the trailer to that. In tech inspection, they wanted me to isolate the fuel cell filler cap from the cockpit and vent the fuel cell overboard. Fortunately, a fellow wearing a yellow “Team Vesco” tee-shirt (Jerry Jacobson) stopped by our pit and wanted to help. He borrowed some aviation tin snips and a hose from Rick Vesco and, with the Ace Hardware sheet metal (three flattened stove pipes), we passed tech inspection. Joline towed me around to the staging lane for the short course and after a wait I was able to run. Embarrassingly, I promptly stalled the engine. Re-started it and ran through first gear, shifted into second, and at about 5,000 rpm the engine started misfiring badly so I turned off the course. Whatever the problem was it wasn’t going to be solved until we returned home so we packed up and left Monday morning.
 
I posted a video on YouTube that pretty much says it all:  https://youtu.be/Tir3rdckiHw  The engine really didn’t sound quite right from the beginning. I’m going to see if maybe I have a fuel filter blockage since it felt like a fuel problem... I’ll see what a teardown reveals.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on September 21, 2018, 01:18:53 AM
Thanks for the post Neil. The car looks great.
Sorry you had the problems.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 21, 2018, 11:08:00 AM
Thanks, Mike. I'm disappointed that I wasn't able to go faster but the main thing is, I drove a car that I built by myself on the salt at Bonneville! I felt like Anthony Hopkins at the end of "The World's Fastest Indian".

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on September 21, 2018, 11:34:07 AM
The car looks a lot meaner than you Neil!  :-D
B'ville ain't a race it's a life long process!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on September 21, 2018, 07:38:33 PM
Wow     hooray for you!!   I remember you showing me your car when I first got out here!!  CONGRATS!!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 29, 2018, 12:36:35 PM
I think that I've found the problem that I had at WOS earlier this month. The engine was down on power and at about 5,000 in 2nd it started mis-firing and then quit completely. I coasted as far as I could off the course but it didn't get quite as far as the return road. A USFRA official towed me over to the return road, he worried about running over the timing wires but we did it without any problem.

When we got home I was able to crank the engine over on the starter but purposely didn't fire it up. Yesterday I removed the hose from the carb manifold and used the electric fuel pump to pump two gallons of fuel from the fuel cell into a fuel can. It took about a minute but I noticed that the flow was not a clear liquid. There appeared to be some froth in the fuel as it went into the can. The sound of the pump running sounded a bit funny, too.

I have two filters in my fuel lines, one 100u filter between the fuel cell pickup and the fuel pump inlet and another 10u filter on the pump outlet. I found out that my "100u" filter element is actually 10u !!! No wonder I was getting fuel starvation. Sucking fuel through a 10u filter together with a pressure altitude of 4200 ft was causing my Carter electric fuel pump to cavitate. I'll replace the inlet filter with a Kinsler 140u filter that I have on the shelf.

Before the run my main power relay failed; the contacts were open even when its solenoid clicked in. I jumpered around it with a short wire and clip leads so I did have 12V electrical power but the voltage drop of the jumper may have made the fuel pump voltage a little low. I'll take the relay out and disassemble it to have a look at the contacts.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on September 29, 2018, 02:12:42 PM
Always the little things, isn't it, Neil? My sequential transaxle would not shift into 3, 4 and 5th due to a $5 torsion spring that failed.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on September 30, 2018, 06:19:42 PM
Neil, A 140 micron "filter" keeps out boulder, birds and small children! Pretty worthless in my view. That being said I did run an inlet filter on my electronic injected Zetec in my old lakes roadster but it was very large, -16 ports and the element was 100 micron but about 10 inches long. but I was having a problem with some material that I used to seal the gas tank and it was coming off in large chunks! I would not normally use an inlet filter on any pump. The 10 micron filter on the outlet is the right filter application.  It is the 25 micron and smaller stuff that is hard on fuel pumps and as I am sure that you have a very clean fuel tank and probably use a filter to put fuel in your tank my guess is that an inlet filter is not a requirement in your system.
Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 30, 2018, 06:29:17 PM
Thanks, Rex. I recently replaced my fuel cell and I want to keep any little pieces of the foam baffling out of the pump inlet but still provide a low restriction inlet.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 17, 2018, 09:22:50 PM
I did replace the 10 micron filter on my Carter electric fuel pump inlet with a 140u Kinsler filter and the pump is definitely quieter so I think it confirms that the pump was cavitating a bit here at 3,000 ft and lots worse at 4,200 ft.

Cranking over the engine does not sound good at all! There is a thunk thunk as it cranks. Being mid-engine, the crank nose is virtually impossible to get to so I can't turn the crank by hand. I'll pull all the plugs and see what they look like but I think I'm going to need to pull the engine and tear it down. I'll have a talk with my engine builder (me). Arrrggghhh................

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on October 17, 2018, 11:14:01 PM

Cranking over the engine does not sound good at all! There is a thunk thunk as it cranks. Being mid-engine, the crank nose is virtually impossible to get to so I can't turn the crank by hand. I'll pull all the plugs and see what they look like but I think I'm going to need to pull the engine and tear it down. I'll have a talk with my engine builder (me). Arrrggghhh................


Neil,

Plug condition may tell the story.    The "thunk, thunk" smacks of mechanical damage, but the tried and true diagnostics may provide some insight:

A/   Compression test,
2/   Leak down test,
d/   Most of the small video inspection cameras fit in a 14mm spark plug hole.

If it is a bottom end issue though, might not be revealed until a post mortem.

 :cheers:  :dhorse:   :cheers:
F/b
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 18, 2018, 12:32:05 PM
Fordboy;

Whatever it is, it's not trivial. I do have an el cheapo attachment for my cell phone that is a video camera fiber optic probe so I'll take a look in the cylinders to see if the engine ingested a foreign object, dropped a valve, etc. My guess, though, is that the noise is associated with the bottom end. We'll see. I'm committed to a car show on Saturday so I'll take it to town tomorrow and just tow it onto the field. I'll need some time to pull the engine/transaxle to do a teardown. I designed my chassis so I could remove a few tubes and then remove the engine & transaxle as an assembly so that makes it a bit easier.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RichFox on October 18, 2018, 12:51:26 PM
Is it a standard transmission? If so you could turn the engine by hand by turning the tires in gear. Sounds as though the engine need to come out anyway.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on October 18, 2018, 11:51:27 PM
I hope it's not serious. :cry: :cry: :cry:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 09, 2018, 09:03:39 PM
Well... I drained the water out of the engine, pulled the intake manifold & carb off and removed the heads (Dart Pro-1). The heads look OK- no bent valves or burnt combustion chambers. In fact, everything was black- its been running pig rich. The tops of all the pistons look OK too except for being sooty black. I locked one rear wheel in place and turned the other wheel over in 5th gear with a 1" socket on a breaker bar and the engine turned over OK; all pistons look like they reach TDC so no seriously bent rods. I cranked over the engine on the starter for a second or two, sounds normal. The head gaskets (Felpro 1010) look OK, no evidence of leaks from any cylinder. I'll pull the pan and have a look at the bottom end next.

I'm beginning to think my Holley 850 DP may be a problem. It has 74H & 82 jets and a 6.5 power valve. The power valve may be too high for this cam (Crower 00427) and if it is, it may be opening even at idle and dumping too much fuel into the intake manifold. I should have checked the idle vacuum early on but I couldn't find my vacuum gauge (dumb move on my part). Maybe its blown- I'll check it. It may be time to replace my carb with a new Holley 850 Ultra HP.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on December 10, 2018, 08:27:48 AM
Neil...Blown power valve usually forces fuel out of the bowl vent when the engine is running.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 10, 2018, 11:43:16 AM
Thanks, I wonder if it comes out of the vent and then gets sucked into the intake?

After thinking about it, might the 4200 ft altitude aggravate a too- high power valve problem?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RichFox on December 10, 2018, 12:48:11 PM
I don't know what else you plan to do with your car. But for Bonneville and other WOT use, I found a blocked off power (Now called economizer) valve worked for me.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 10, 2018, 06:46:21 PM
Back in the "Olden Days" when I was in College at William & Mary, I had a good friend who was a car guy and an artist, "Weed" we called him (a name from a sci-fi novel that he liked), his real name was "William S. Gregory" so he was called "Pope" on occasion. He drew a Christmas card for all of our close-knit group and I saved that card for all these years. This year I scanned it so that I could share it with you all.

Merry Christmas!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on December 11, 2018, 08:29:54 AM
wonderful that you kept that all those years Neil....Did you find your "thunk"?  Loose flywheel?  Starter motor?  Playful gremlin w/ a hammer?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 11, 2018, 11:32:55 AM
Yeah, I wonder what ever happened to Weed.

I've taken off the heads and found nothing amiss. Cranking it over on the starter for a second or two sounds normal.....?????????? Next thing is to drop the pan and have a look.

Merry Christmas!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 11, 2018, 03:41:37 PM
Gremlins. Someone's got exterminate these guys.👍
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on December 11, 2018, 06:44:14 PM
Sometimes things like a rod kissing an oil baffle/scraper etc can sound bad but usually not cause lot of damage unless it shreds stuff into the oil. Not counting the emotional stress though....;)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 11, 2018, 07:37:40 PM
I cranked it over for a longer period of time and there is some muffled noise as it rotates. Pan coming off...

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2018, 07:52:25 PM
I finished pulling the engine and transaxle out of the chassis this afternoon. Now to unbolt the transaxle and set the engine on an engine stand, drain the oil, rotate it upside down (after removing the lifters), pull off the pan and look inside. Any bets as to what I'll find?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 19, 2018, 07:53:35 PM
One more.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RaceEngineer on December 19, 2018, 09:25:28 PM
Neil,

My bet is pinched ring land due to detonation (lean running condition due to filter on the suction side of an undersized fuel pump) or rod bearing damage.  Hope it's minor and cheap to fix

Regards,

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 20, 2018, 11:14:25 AM
I'll find out for sure in the next day or so. The piston tops don't show visible signs of detonation but  teardown will reveal all.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 20, 2018, 12:04:46 PM
In picture 1 of this series - someone has been writing on a piston crown - my guess is there is a marker pen in there somewhere.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 20, 2018, 12:17:01 PM
Holding thumbs down here Neil.🙏
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on December 20, 2018, 03:02:27 PM
Is THAT what that is ??  I thought it was a blue bikini with a huge pair of...……………..
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 20, 2018, 06:38:28 PM
In picture 1 of this series - someone has been writing on a piston crown - my guess is there is a marker pen in there somewhere.

John

Those are my notes from when I assembled this engine. I'll look for a pen in there, too.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 22, 2018, 07:20:58 PM
Today I drained the engine oil through a paint strainer to see if there were any bits of metal in the oil. Fortunately there were none, only a small amount of very soft fuzz on the magnetic drain plug. I'm not surprised to see some of that, being a new build so everything is wearing in a little and the rings were seating.

The strange thing I noticed about the oil is its color- sort of an old army summer uniform tan/khaki. Here is a photo of it in the sunlight. In the shade it looks darker. Any guesses as to why Mobil-1 has turned this odd color? Water in the oil? or....

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on December 22, 2018, 09:59:34 PM
That sounds like a really good guess Neil. That's what it looks like to me.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 27, 2018, 11:48:27 AM
It looks like you were right, Pete.

I found evidence of water getting into the cylinders after pulling the pan and rotating the block on an engine stand. There is some rust/corrosion on the low sides of the cylinders due to water that drained through the carb and intake manifold into the cylinders. After returning from WOS, we had a heavy rain before I could unload the car off my open trailer and pushed it into the shop. I'm sure that was when the water was ingested. My air cleaner has a big spun aluminum top that is indented where the hold-down stud goes through so that acted like a funnel and the water ran down the opening around the stud. Arrrggghhh.

I hope a honing to 40 over (now it is 30 over) will clean up the cylinder walls. Otherwise it is bore it 60 over; I am not near the displacement limit of B class since I'm only at 383 CID right now. In either case, I'll need to replace the pistons and rings.

So far the rods and cam look OK but I need to pull some rod & main bearing caps and have a look. I did find two broken teeth in my starter ring gear, undoubtedly caused by hydraulicing the engine after letting it sit overnight with a loose power valve draining gas into the cylinders. The gear bolts on to the flywheel so it is not a big problem. I think the noise I heard when cranking the engine over on the starter was the bad ring gear. Turning the crank with a wrench on the harmonic balancer seems normal.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on December 27, 2018, 11:56:32 AM
ooooo  I have similar  car still on the trailer with a  storm---I didn't have to pull the eng though..
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 27, 2018, 06:48:05 PM
I’ll set up a depth mic and check the height of each piston at TDC, that should me tell if any rods are bent. The dust/corrosion may be too deep for the rings to seal even if the cylinder is touched- up with a hone. Since I did not know that water had leaked into the intake, it set with water in the cylinders for a couple of weeks. I suspect that I’ll need to hone or bore it to the next oversize. I do have a bore mic so I’ll check it. I might be able to get by if it was a mild street engine but not a race engine. The KEP pressure plate uses a bolt-on ring gear so I’ll just order a new one and install it. The starter pinion gear looked OK by eye but I’ll check it more carefully under a magnifying glass. Tomorrow I’ll pull off a few bearing caps and wipe as much oil as I can off of everything to get a better look.

It is beginning to look like the reason the engine went down on power and then quit may have been due to two things- the carburetor power valve was too high so that even at modest throttle, it was opening and dumping way too much fuel into the engine. And, listening to the video of my run, it is clear that the RPM drop from the shift from first gear to second was way too much. I now think I accidentally shifted from first to fourth, so the large throttle opening at low RPM just flooded it with too much fuel. The driver of a chase truck commented that black smoke was coming from the exhaust. This supports the too much fuel rather that my fuel starvation theory after I found that my fuel suction filter was 10u instead of 100u.

My shift pattern is reversed (1st is to the left and back, second is to the left and forward, etc) so I’ll change the shift lever pivot point to make it a standard pattern. It’s hard to unlearn a shift pattern. Smile

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 27, 2018, 07:44:54 PM
Hey Neil, sorry to hear this especially after all the time and effort you put in.
 :evil: :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 27, 2018, 09:30:46 PM
There is a bright side, Neil, the CR will be higher after the bore job.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 28, 2018, 07:32:12 PM
I removed #1 cylinder rod bearing cap to inspect the bearing surface. There are some soft metallic particles embedded in the surface. The crank looks OK. It looks like I'll need new bearings. I'll have a look at a main or two tomorrow. I wonder what that stuff is?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on December 28, 2018, 08:42:46 PM
Hi Neil,
You may be able to get away with hone and Line to Line coating of the piston skirts. It would save a bunch of money and be easier than fitting new pistons and rings.
For those not familiar with Line to Line, it is an abradable coating applied to piston skirts.
It sounds like you may want to put that engine on an engine dyno and work out any other tuning issues while it is out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on December 28, 2018, 11:06:58 PM

I removed #1 cylinder rod bearing cap to inspect the bearing surface. There are some soft metallic particles embedded in the surface. The crank looks OK. It looks like I'll need new bearings. I'll have a look at a main or two tomorrow. I wonder what that stuff is?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,

Looked at your photo, needs more magnification, BUT, looks to me like "machining debris".   Ie: the various micro-bits of iron, honing grit, etc, that might remain in the block, heads, oil lines, oil tanks, etc, etc.

I know YOU are meticulous, but I'm wondering if you paid anyone to "clean the block/crank for assembly"?   It is VERY difficult to get all the associated "crap" out of a block,by just running it through a "jet washer".   Blind spots and drilled passages can retain quite a bit of "swarf".  And although most manufacturers of bits are well meaning, I check EVERYTHING.    YMMV, and after all it's your wallet . . . . .   :-D

My method ( keep in mind my rampant paranoia . . . . .)

1/   Honing particles and grit are removed with mineral spirit or naphtha and brushes.   ALL plugs removed from ALL oil passages, ALL brushed out.   Cylinders brushed out also, especially the bottom edges where honing grit collects.
      Deburr  the bottoms of the cylinders, so they don't slice the part of the piston that protrudes below the cylinder at BDC.  Get a brush kit, that's what they are for.   Don't forget the threaded holes . . . . even new blocks can have
      LOTS of debris . . . .

2/   Detergent degrease with HOT water. By hand or jet washer, doesn't matter.   BUT, if the jet washer water is filthy, don't expect your block/heads/whatever, to be clean.

3/   HOT water/compressed air rinse.   Hot water alone can work.

4/   WD40 or other water displacer spray to prevent flash rust.

5/   Compressed air dry.

6/   Most important of all: Thorough inspection!    White paper towels or new lint free rags, or whatever, wetted with naphtha or "Brakleen", should be wiped on a random cylinder.   Crankshaft oil passages can be checked with
      "Brakleen" and a brush that fits the oil passage.   Just like a "Marine Inspection" your block has to pass "the white glove test", AND, a flashlight inspection of the oil passages.
      If it doesn't pass my inspection, SOMEBODY gets to "start over" . . . . . .

I'm certain others can offer their methods that work.   As far as I am concerned though:  "Cleanliness is more important than godliness."   Over the years though, several of my cleaning guys have given me un-godlike nicknames . . . . .   Use your imagination   :wink:

JMHO, most machine shops do a poor job of cleaning parts for assembly.   Most will not pass the "white glove test".   My take is that your engine is going to make enough micro-particles during the bedding-in process.  It doesn't need more to start off.

 :cheers:  :dhorse:  :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 29, 2018, 10:01:18 AM
I've always said I'm more of an assembler than a builder and was taught by the best.
If it breaks it won't be because of some foreign body left over from machining.
In short, it's only done when that paper towel comes out as clean as it went in.
If it takes a week or more to clean the parts so be it.

I feel for you Neil.🙏
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 29, 2018, 10:34:03 AM
An oil analysis might be a big help.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2018, 12:16:43 PM
Fordboy, I appreciate your (and everyone else's) opinion. It does look like loose soft metal (aluminum?) swarf that was not completely flushed out of the block. That is completely my fault, I should have been more careful.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2018, 12:22:13 PM
Hi Neil,
You may be able to get away with hone and Line to Line coating of the piston skirts. It would save a bunch of money and be easier than fitting new pistons and rings.
For those not familiar with Line to Line, it is an abradable coating applied to piston skirts.
It sounds like you may want to put that engine on an engine dyno and work out any other tuning issues while it is out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for directing me to Line-to-Line, Rob. I had not heard of them before. Their coating might be able to make my pistons still usable after honing the cylinders. They were new Cosworth forged pistons with a ceramic heat barrier on the crowns so they are not cheap to replace. Have you used those coatings from L-L?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on December 29, 2018, 12:29:08 PM
Yes, we have been using them for years.
It give the closest possible piston to bore fit and helps to keep rings square to bore for better seal and more hp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2018, 12:32:18 PM
Thanks, Rob. Your experience is a good recommendation.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 29, 2018, 07:38:16 PM
I pulled off all the bearing caps...ugly. The rod bearings are marginally worse than the mains for some reason. The crank looks OK, I'll just have it polished while I have the engine apart. It is STD now so there's no point in grinding the journals smaller unless it's necessary.

The pistons look OK, a little wear on the thrust side but not of any concern. The rings actually look OK but I'll have a look with a magnifying glass before a final decision. The pins are fine and the rods look straight so that's a relief. I removed the Erson timing gear drive and the gears and bearings look OK. The Crower roller cam turns easily and exhibits no damage or undue wear on any of its lobes. The oil pump turns freely without any noises. I'll need to order new bearings and a bunch of gaskets soon. The question now is whether a light hone will clean up the cylinder walls so that I can re-use my pistons & rings or whether I'll need to have it bored +10 over and replace the pistons & rings or have the skirts treated by L-to-L and go with new rings.

Whichever way it goes, I'll be doubly sure to clean out the oil passages myself this time instead of relying on someone else.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on December 29, 2018, 07:57:25 PM
Big decisions Neil.

So you think there was swarf in the oil passages?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on December 29, 2018, 09:46:54 PM
Neil, if you have access to a way-back machine, maybe this will help!  :-o :-D
How many of youse younger guys remember seeing/using one of these things?  :? :? :cheers:
There's always knurling, too!  :-D :-D :-D :dhorse:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 29, 2018, 10:56:29 PM
Neil, sometimes the coating comes off of a shell and it is pounded back into the shell at a different location.  This appears to be contamination from an external source, but it is not.  Shells contaminated from an outside source often show embedded particles without a lot of pitting elsewhere on the shells.
The dark color of the big end in the photo suggests another problem source, like low oil pressure.  I am not sure how the oil passages go, but if the rod big ends are downstream from the main bearings, and they show more distress, this is another indicator of an oil pressure problem.   
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on December 30, 2018, 07:30:33 AM

Fordboy, I appreciate your (and everyone else's) opinion. It does look like loose soft metal (aluminum?) swarf that was not completely flushed out of the block. That is completely my fault, I should have been more careful.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Neil,

x2 about Line-to-Line.

Some other, random thoughts . . . . .

A/    It's your Lucky Day!    :roll:   Well, because it's a Chevy.   Race bearings are available in .001" under size, so if your crank polishes up slightly under spec, you can use a set of those.   And .001" unders, are available for many engines.   King lists .002" u/s for Chevys, in both mains & rods.

2/    Don't get paranoid about getting all the cylinder "scratches" out by honing the bore.   Tiny, fine scratches, (not DEEP ones), while not ideal, can be ignored.   Anything that is equivalent to service wear is acceptable, UNLESS the cylinder is "out of round".    O/o/r conditions prevent ring seal with "tool steel" rings.   Softer rings can accept more o/o/r.   And, BTW, forget about cylinder scratches in the lower 1/3, or so, of the bore.   Rings don't go there.   Bore should be smooth enough so that the piston skirt is not "compromised".    Chromed, steel aircraft cylinders are purposely "scratched" by specialized honing methods and/or reversing the plating polarity.    Those small to tiny "defects" hold oil essential for piston skirt lubrication.

d/    On most "conventional" engines, the mains are fed oil first, and then oil flows to the rods from a combination of oil pressure and rotating forces.    "Nose fed" crank oiling is an exception to this convention.    Crank oil passage drillings & rpm range used, determine whether a crank requires a "low" or "high" pressure for bearings to receive adequate oil.   Additionally, pressure is somewhat misleading as it is the oil pressure, plus the volume of flow, plus the flow timing, that keeps the surfaces out of contact.   Note that many specialist produced "Chevy" type blocks use "priority main oiling systems".    These systems are designed to prioritize oil feed to the crankshaft.    Mains first, then rods.   Everything else, after that.

JMHO and YMMV

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 30, 2018, 10:53:19 AM
The contamination particles embed themselves in the shell surface and in other respects, the shell looks OK, based on what I have seen in the past.  The scoring and color of the one shown are a concern.  The main idea is to make sure that there are not multiple problems happening.  Gross contamination can score the oil pump so it does not produce the needed pressure.  Also, junk can lodge in the excess oil pressure bleed valve and cause a pressure loss there.  Or, there might be two problems happening independent of each other.

At a minimum, it might be smart to send an oil sample to a lab, cut apart the filter and look at contaminates on the paper, get a second opinion on the bearing shells, take apart and inspect the oil pump and check valve, and recheck all crank and rod bearing clearances and crank end play.  Also, prussian blue is put on the back side of all bearing shells and the motor is assembled.  Then it is taken apart and the shell seating on the block and rods is examined.  The goal is to verify that oil is not escaping out from under a shell. 

Keep in mind that I know very little about this engine.  This is only some things I have learned from experience with bike motors.   
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 30, 2018, 10:59:35 AM
Big decisions Neil.

So you think there was swarf in the oil passages?.

Yes, Mike, from the condition of the rod & main bearings it is clear that there was some debris in the oil passages that did not get completely cleaned out.

I originally used Clevite H-series bearings but this time I think I'll try King XP bearings.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 30, 2018, 11:07:47 AM
Neil, sometimes the coating comes off of a shell and it is pounded back into the shell at a different location.  This appears to be contamination from an external source, but it is not.  Shells contaminated from an outside source often show embedded particles without a lot of pitting elsewhere on the shells.
The dark color of the big end in the photo suggests another problem source, like low oil pressure.  I am not sure how the oil passages go, but if the rod big ends are downstream from the main bearings, and they show more distress, this is another indicator of an oil pressure problem.   

I think the "dark color" in the photo is just the lighting. I just put the bearing on a table and used my cell phone camera. The oil pressure gauge showed 60 psi during the run so it looked OK.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 30, 2018, 11:20:18 AM
Fordboy;

Thank you for your observations. I've tentatively already decided to switch to King XP bearings and they do offer a slightly undersize choice. I'll clean out the block oil passages with a set of brushes that I'll order from Speedway Motors. I'll clean out the Melling oil pump as well.

Re your comment about hard chrome aircraft cylinders: I had a few 4 cyl McCulloch drone engines and they had hard chrome plating on their aluminum cylinders. McCulloch's solution for oil retention was a series of thousands of little indentations about the size of this "_" in the cylinder walls.

L-to-L is sounding better all the time.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 24, 2019, 07:52:13 PM
My Donovan aluminum block is now at Gary's Machine Shop here in Tucson. I'm getting the cylinder liners honed/bored, new cam bearings installed, and the crank polished. I had asked Gary to take a few thou' off the deck to clean it up but he noticed something that I had not- the liners are all o-ringed. I had used a usual Fel-Pro head gasket when I built the engine and it seems like if I could have made a good, strong run I might have blown a head gasket. As it was, the gasket survived intact.

Now that I know that the liners are all o-ringed I've ordered a set of Miladon copper head gaskets. The gasket bores are 4.060" so the o-ring will be well into the copper. The thickness is 0.030" while the Fel-Pro was 0.039" so I'll pick up a little bit of compression. Any advice on installing copper head gaskets?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on January 24, 2019, 08:03:04 PM
I've sprayed mine with copper coat. Cylinders with special o rings and they seal ok. Other stuff, not under pressure, tends to seep a bit. fine wire around water/oil holes or hylomar or yamabond may help that. Nothing big, just sl seep.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 10, 2019, 07:32:30 PM
It looks like I lucked out. Gary called yesterday and said that my crank polished to much less that 0.001" under standard size so I went ahead and ordered new King XP main & rod bearings in STD size. He had good news on the cylinders, too. Honing them out +0.002" (from 4.030" to 4.032") cleaned up the bad spots. This means that I can still use the Cosworth pistons and the ring gaps will not increase more than one tenth with the slightly larger bore.

The machine shop should have the block & crank cleaned and new cam bearings installed by the end of this week. I also ordered a set of block cleaning brushes so I'll clean the oil passages myself, too.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on February 10, 2019, 08:46:33 PM
Neil, that's great news.   :cheers:
You best go buy a Loto ticket. 

  Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 19, 2019, 07:04:17 PM
The set of engine cleaning brushes and the bearings arrived so I cleaned the oil passages in my crankshaft this afternoon. The machine shop did a good job of cleaning it; I did not see any evidence of any remaining debris when I ran a brush through all the passages or when I sprayed them with brake cleaner. I used a lintless fiber cloth to wipe everything down before spraying on a light coat of WD-40 to prevent rust. Now to tackle the block...

This is a 51 lb forged 4340 steel Lunati crankshaft, 3.75" stroke, with knife-edged counterweights. USA steel and USA forged, not Chinese.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jl222 on February 19, 2019, 11:47:06 PM
 
 We use red hi=temp RTV silicone on our KB aluminum block just a very thin coating around water and oil holes. 1st on block and then on top of copper gasket. we have be care full around small oil holes that feed rocker shafts, to much and
silicone covers hole, We torque from ends to middle so gasket doesn't squeeze out.

  OUR heads are o-ringed with a small stainless wire that matches up with on ring in sleeves. No RTV used on our o-rings.

                                 JL222

                   
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 20, 2019, 10:56:19 AM
I planned on using either red or Ultra Black RTV around the water passages in the copper head gasket, too. SCE recommends using KW Copper Kote around water holes in their copper head gaskets. That sure is sticky stuff!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on February 20, 2019, 01:35:26 PM
A lot of years ago we used Copper Kote on the head gaskets of a big block Chev in a pavement sprint car where the engine would run for much longer periods of time without any problems. The cylinders were O-ringed with grooves in both the head and the block. It's a formula that seems to work.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 20, 2019, 04:55:20 PM
I hope, so, Pete. That's what I plan to do. Really nasty, sticky stuff, though.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Crackerman on February 20, 2019, 11:53:49 PM
I have been using copper kote for almost 15 years now on MLS head gaskets. I have never had one leak coolant or oil.

Brake clean takes the stuff right off.

I would be hesitant to use anything silicone related on a head gasket, that stuff squishes out, gets in oil and water passages and hardens up. Prior to copper kote I was using hylomar, and now a permatex brush on non hardening sealant. But never rtv.the only spot it's good for is the oil pan corners, and China walls on the intake manifold.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: bvillercr on February 21, 2019, 01:18:07 AM
I have been using copper kote for almost 15 years now on MLS head gaskets. I have never had one leak coolant or oil.

Brake clean takes the stuff right off.

I would be hesitant to use anything silicone related on a head gasket, that stuff squishes out, gets in oil and water passages and hardens up. Prior to copper kote I was using hylomar, and now a permatex brush on non hardening sealant. But never rtv.the only spot it's good for is the oil pan corners, and China walls on the intake manifold.

We've been using the red RTV high temp silicone for 30 years without any problems.  Hard to switch products, sounds like your copper kote is good stuff
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 21, 2019, 02:14:08 PM
Niel,
I am like you, I have used red RTV on head gaskets for years, the trick is the coating of the RTV must be very thin, I usually run a very small line of the stuff around things that I think need to be sealed, i.e. water and oil passages, and then use my fingers to "rub" the RTV down to a very thin coating. Let is set for a few minutes and then assemble. With head gaskets we are only trying to fill the very small possible irregularities between two machined surfaces so the coating, copper plate or red RTV needs to be thin. To many people just gubber  on a big bead of RTV and then when at assembly it comes out the sides, down the water and oil passages and causes havoc. In this case the less you put on the better.

At Interscope we had many problems with exhaust header gaskets blowing out, both NA and turbo engines, we finally went to using just the high temp red RTV and never had a problem again. We did surface grind the header flanges so they were flat and true.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 23, 2019, 07:13:41 PM
I put the block on an engine stand and cleaned the oil passages, main bearing bores, and cylinder liners with brushes and then sprayed them with brake cleaner. I also brushed & sprayed the lifter bores. I wiped the liners with lintless wipers after spraying them with brake cleaner and they are now as clean as I can get them. A light spray of WD-40 was the last step, just to prevent any rust. When the main bearing seals arrive (Monday or Tuesday) I will install them and the main bearings so that I can drop the crank in. I did a trial fit on the Milodon copper head gaskets and they look fine. It was not easy getting them out of the skin pack without bending them. They are really SOFT!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 24, 2019, 07:03:31 PM
A bit more progress today- I re- installed the fuel pump block- off plate, cleaned the oil pump thoroughly, removed the main cap studs, cleaned them and re- installed all but the angled studs. I installed the upper main bearing, applied some Red Line assembly lube, and laid thee crank into place. Maybe the rear main seal & oil pan seals will arrive tomorrow and I can put the lower main bearings in place and torque down the main bearing caps.

The King XP bearings are unusual, their bearing surfaces are flat black.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on February 24, 2019, 10:57:19 PM
All looks good now Neil. Great looking!!!!!.
Good luck on the rest.👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👍👍👍
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on February 25, 2019, 08:05:18 AM
Bearings are coated, Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on February 25, 2019, 08:44:40 AM
Just rambling here....I wonder if a clever type could rig -up a pump that attached to the oil pump mount and flush the oil passages with solvent/oil. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: handyguy on February 25, 2019, 09:46:05 AM
I did my own rod bearings / cam bushings with CERAKOTE MICRO SLICK ..  Also did CERAMIC coating on piston tops , valve tops and combustion chamber (aluminum head)  and PISTON COAT on sides .. I have the equipment for the process ..  I am upgrading to turbo , port injection and alcohol this year .   STEVE
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 25, 2019, 01:11:54 PM
The pistons are ceramic coated on the Triumph.  One objective is to reduce heat transfer down the rods to the big ends.  This will help to prevent oil thinning there due to high temps.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 25, 2019, 05:23:11 PM
WW;

My Cosworth piston crowns are also ceramic coated.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 26, 2019, 06:23:52 PM
The temperature is back up to 70F, the sun is shining, I'm outside cleaning roller lifters in Xylene, listening to Duke Ellington- "Take the A-Train". Does it get any better than this?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on February 27, 2019, 04:42:23 AM
Niel,
I am like you, I have used red RTV on head gaskets for years, the trick is the coating of the RTV must be very thin, I usually run a very small line of the stuff around things that I think need to be sealed, i.e. water and oil passages, and then use my fingers to "rub" the RTV down to a very thin coating. Let is set for a few minutes and then assemble. With head gaskets we are only trying to fill the very small possible irregularities between two machined surfaces so the coating, copper plate or red RTV needs to be thin. To many people just gubber  on a big bead of RTV and then when at assembly it comes out the sides, down the water and oil passages and causes havoc. In this case the less you put on the better.

At Interscope we had many problems with exhaust header gaskets blowing out, both NA and turbo engines, we finally went to using just the high temp red RTV and never had a problem again. We did surface grind the header flanges so they were flat and true.

Rex

Neil and Rex, et all,

A couple of thoughts about these 2 subjects based on my long experience engineering racing engines:

Using RTV on head gaskets should resolve some "finicky" sealing issues, if the head gasket is "uncoated" or has a coating that is compatible with RTV.    I  also have used the "thin schmear" method, with success.    But there are some gasket coatings that are not compatible with silicone based products.    Check with the gasket mfg's tech department if it does not seem to work.   It is definitely required to allow adequate time for the RTV to set up, before exposing it to water, oil, or pressure.   You simply need to allow adequate time for the stuff to "glue/bond" the parts together.    Because uncured silicone sealer is one of the best lubricants on the planet . . . . .

I also have used "red" RTV as a substitute for header gaskets.    The stuff was invented to bond ceramic heat shield "tiles" to the Space Shuttle, so it is VERY heat resistant.   Since the heat of the exhaust "cures" the stuff quickly, as long as the mating surfaces are flat, as Rex noted, it can be put into service in short order.    Again, if the surfaces are "wavy", best to let it cure before exposing it to heat and pressure.   For turbo exhaust systems that run very hot in service, a couple of applications have needed to have "beaded",  MLS, stainless steel gaskets installed between components.    These have been 4 cylinder applications with lots of vibration.  Go figure . . . .

Also, once the red stuff has cured on your clothes, it's there forever . . . . .   The fibers of the clothing will fail before that stuff will come off.   Trust me on this.

 :cheers:
Slimedboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 27, 2019, 10:58:25 AM
Rex, can you put that sun in a box and ship it up here?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 27, 2019, 01:58:00 PM
ww,
I would gladly ship you some sun shine but today is the first day in a week that we have even seen blue sky between the rain clouds. Since Saturday I have had about 8 1/2 inches of rain, the Russian river is way above its' banks and the road into my place is flooded in 3 places. You probably don't need more moisture right now as our rain mixed with your snow would equal "Misery"!!!

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on February 27, 2019, 03:25:26 PM
1" of rain roughly converts to 10" of snow....So that would be normal here... :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 27, 2019, 06:52:51 PM
I spent the afternoon installing the crank and main bearings. I put in a new rear main seal; the previous one was a Fel- Pro blue silicone seal but this time I decided to use their flouroelastomer seal 2912. It isn't as soft as the silicone seal and costs more but I think that this is a heavier duty material. Seals and bearings were coated with assembly lube before the crank was dropped into place.

The straight studs are torqued to 70 ft-lbs and the angled studs are torqued to 65 ft-lbs. The oil pump is also now installed. The next step will be to install the camshaft. Getting assembly lube on the cam bearings isn't going to be easy.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on March 22, 2019, 03:33:41 PM
I've had some delay in getting my engine assembled- I just got out of the hospital last Friday afternoon. While Joline and I were in Nashville helping her sister to move into her new house, my gall bladder started acting up so when we got back to Tucson we stopped in to the Tucson VA Hospital to see about getting an appointment to see a doctor. They admitted me the same day and removed my gall bladder in the next two days. I'm "ahead of schedule" in recovering according to my surgical team.

Anyway... I just placed an order for a new set of piston rings with Summit. My Cosworth pistons need 0.043", 1/16" & 3/16" rings so the unequal top & second ring made choices limited. Sealed Power had what I needed. I decided to replace the old rings as long as I was re-doing the engine just to be on the safe side.


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on March 22, 2019, 11:29:10 PM
Get well Neil, luckily that's a part you don't need... sorta like an EGR valve...
Don't strain your gizzard lifting, torquing, pushing or pulling...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gowing on March 23, 2019, 12:01:19 AM
.....  luckily that's a part you don't need... sorta like an EGR valve...
:-D hehe!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: tauruck on March 23, 2019, 03:29:58 AM
Get well Neil, now you're on the weight limit. Geez, the lengths some guys will go to to save weight!!!!😂😂😂🙏✝👍
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 01, 2019, 03:36:33 PM
OK, I'm back on the project. I stripped the old rings off the pistons and cleaned them thoroughly with carb cleaner spray. This morning I coated the piston skirts with an "air-dry solid film lubricant", Lubri- Bond B. It is a thin liquid that can be brushed or sprayed on to give it a low-friction surface. It is a suspension of graphite & molybdenum disulfide in an epoxy carrier. My piston skirts were originally coated with some sort of black coating but it had started to show a little wear so I thought I'd try this stuff.

It's made by Curtis Wright Everlube so I think it might work.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 08, 2019, 09:07:02 PM
Most of the pistons are installed but in checking the rod side clearance it was clear that something was wrong. The King XP rod bearings came in a box with two clear plastic trays, each containing 8 bearing halfs. No instructions were included so I just opened one tray and put a bearing into each rod and each cap. I was halfway through this when I noticed numbers 1 through 8 embossed into the bottom of each tray. Wait... were these supposed to indicate cylinder numbers? I'd never encountered that before.

This morning I called King Bearings and asked about this. It turns out that one tray was intended as "upper" bearing halfs and the other was "lower". The fellow at King pointed out a small "U" and "L" that were etched on the back of each piece. He agreed that they needed to include paperwork that pointed this out to a customer. Apparently he's had many questions about this before.  :-)  Now to remove the bearings that I installed and put the right ones in their place. Arrrggghhh....

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on April 08, 2019, 10:27:12 PM
. . . without hurting them.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on April 09, 2019, 11:07:44 AM
At least you didn`t fire it up w/ a lower shell in the upper location blocking the oil hole. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on April 09, 2019, 11:08:39 AM
Are they different widths?  trying to figure out how they affect side clearance... pics please
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 09, 2019, 11:39:38 AM
At least you didn`t fire it up w/ a lower shell in the upper location blocking the oil hole. :cheers:

Nope, the oil holes are in the main bearings, not the rod bearings.  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on April 09, 2019, 11:57:33 AM
The oil squirter holes  that lube the cyl. walls are in the crank ??
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 09, 2019, 10:27:49 PM
The oil squirter holes  that lube the cyl. walls are in the crank ??

The lube for the cylinder walls come from oil tossed out through the rod  side clearance. There are no holes in the Crower rod caps.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 09, 2019, 10:31:20 PM
Are they different widths?  trying to figure out how they affect side clearance... pics please

By looking closely I can see that the rod bearing edges are not symmetrical. I suppose this is for clearance of the crank radius. Here is how the bearings are marked; the "L" means that this is intended to be the lower half.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on April 10, 2019, 10:41:45 AM
I`ll be darned.  Side groove rather than a hole.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Koncretekid on April 10, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
So does the upper rod bearing have a corresponding groove?  should you make one?
Tom
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 10, 2019, 06:59:59 PM
Now that the rod bearing halfs are in the right places, things look OK.  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on April 11, 2019, 07:32:26 AM
So does the upper rod bearing have a corresponding groove?  should you make one?
Tom

No.  The proper bearing clearance will provide adequate flow toward the rod cheeks.

All that is required is the "flow" from the bearing surface to pass outside the cheek of the con rod, (both sides) and it will be "slung off" radially.    All the rod groove does, is to "direct" some of the flow in a particular direction, say the bottom of the piston.

Many V8 bearing sets are "directionally chamfered".    The big chamfer, or radius, has to face the rod journal radius, to provide clearance.   The other side is not clearanced as heavily, to add surface area and additional load bearing capability.


This is where the idea of:   "I can build an engine as good as anybody."   can get a bit tricky.     If you don't assemble engines all the time, your skill set can get rusty.   This is not intended as a criticism Neil.    It's just a "heads up" about the "little details".     There are a lot of "little details" and it can be frustrating to get them all correct.

Best regards and  :cheers:
Mark
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Koncretekid on April 11, 2019, 10:48:21 AM
I haven't built a V-8 since my high school days, but another dumb question would be which side does the notch face -- the journal or the other rod? (I would guess the journal side using the 50-50 rule.)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 11, 2019, 11:24:38 AM
Mark;

Thanks for explaining the rod side clearance oil slinging. Your explanation was way better than mine.

The King XP rod bearings are not chamfered on one edge; instead, the locating tang is offset slightly in each bearing half so that one edge is inset in the rod to clear the crank radius. Looking at the bearings in the box they looked all alike, only when they were snapped into place did it become obvious that they were offset. Calling the manufacturer is usually a good idea when something isn't making sense.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on April 11, 2019, 11:42:46 AM
I haven't built a V-8 since my high school days, but another dumb question would be which side does the notch face -- the journal or the other rod? (I would guess the journal side using the 50-50 rule.)
And you would be correct
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on April 11, 2019, 02:36:21 PM
...and I would hope Crower would not drill holes in a rod cap :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on April 11, 2019, 03:44:21 PM
The oil squirter holes  that lube the cyl. walls are in the crank ??

With the amount of oil "flung off" the crankshaft and con rods, (even in "dry" sump systems), in most racing engines, cylinder wall oiling is typically NOT an issue.   In fact, with today's "low tension", thin section oil ring assemblies, the oil on the cylinder walls can easily "overpower" the oil removal capability of the ring and piston, forcing the 2nd ring into a "backup" role as an oil scraper.

Thin rings "re-capture" work otherwise lost to friction/drag power losses.    The trick is to minimize the loss component while retaining adequate lubrication and cooling . . . . .   :-)   There is some "disagreement" about this, but my opinion is that the bottom end components are mostly oil cooled.   The rings and piston land area transfer heat through the cylinder wall to the cooling system, but the skirt, not so much.

Yeah, your flathead powered lawn mower running low rpm levels with splash lubrication to the crank and rod needs a squirt hole to the piston/cylinder.   Your 6000+ rpm race engine, NO.   It's an "oil tornado" in that crankcase . . . .

 :cheers:
M
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on April 12, 2019, 08:41:26 AM
^^^ Concur...Those grooves location and orientation look to be more of a wrist pin oiler...and that is never a bad thing to have.  Carry on Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Koncretekid on April 13, 2019, 10:27:07 AM
What about the oil squirters that are used in modern motorcycle motors?  I think they are to help cool the bottom, hence the crown of the piston but would they also help lubricate the piston pin?  I'm, of course, mostly concerned with air cooled motors.
Tom
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: SPARKY on April 13, 2019, 11:28:39 AM
I have run "crown oilers" in my BBC engines for over 10 years more and more engies run them now especially Turbo and direct injection engines
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 13, 2019, 12:36:54 PM
On the Triumph...heat related discoloration of the gudgeon pins and stains from oxidized oil on the undersides of the piston crowns showed signs of too much heat in that area.  This was with the eutectic cast OEM pistons and no thermal coatings.  Triumph has oil squirter holes in the rod big ends to send lube to that area.  This did not prevent the heat problem.

The cast pistons were replaced with forged ones that dissipate heat better and thermal coatings are used on the crowns.  At the same time the this done anal level pickiness was used to make sure the ignition timing was as retarded as much as possible while producing good power.  It is not excessively advanced.  Also, the mixture was adjusted to be certain it was as rich as possible without hurting power.  Lots of dyno work did this.

There are no heat discoloration marks on the pins.  There are no oxidized oil stains under the crowns.  The Carillo rods have no oil squirters.  The changes above were not done one at a time so I have no idea what worked and did not.  Together, one or more actions solved the problem.     
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 17, 2019, 07:19:33 PM
AGGRAVATION!  :x :x

Yesterday I installed both copper head gaskets after cleaning the deck and applying K & W Copper Coat around the coolant and oil drain back holes. Ditto on the gasket and I slid the heads over the studs on to the block. Fortunately, I only temporarily torqued the stud nuts to 35 ft lbs, intending to torque them to the final value, 70 ft lbs, today. This morning I installed the Crower roller lifters in their bores with some assembly lube and inserted all the pushrods into the lifters through the guide plates. One pushrod did not feel right. I could easily twirl all the pushrods around except #6 exhaust- it was tight. After checking everything I found that the pushrod was pushed over by the guide plate into the side of the pushrod hole. Apparently Dart had not removed sufficient casting flash from that hole to allow a pushrod to move freely.

I've removed the right cylinder head so that tomorrow I can use my die grinder to enlarge that hole (red line in photo). Now it looks like this may have been a problem last year.

Has anyone ever encountered poorly or unfinished head casting finish work? These are Dart Pro-1 aluminum heads.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on April 17, 2019, 07:55:14 PM
Yup.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Harold Bettes on April 17, 2019, 10:45:49 PM
Neil,

The oldtime adage from long ago stated, "If it is not on time or doesn't fit, must be racecar parts..." still applies today. 8-) The finalization and detailed inspection of fit and finish is on the consumer, even if the parts are highly touted CNC super duper stuff. Important things such as valve seat concentricity are high on the hit parade for needing a detailed inspection to maintain any kind of QC. As I understand it you worked in aerospace stuff. The lack of QC is somewhat common in most (but not all) aftermarket parts. :roll: Buyer beware good old caveat emptor, my friend. :wink:

Looking at the bright side, at least you found the problem and it is easy to fix. :-D

Continue being careful and it will always pay off.

Best of Luck! :cheers:

Regards,
HB2 :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on April 18, 2019, 08:19:34 AM
Youse guys are young enough to remember Pogo!  :x

"We have met the enemy and he is us!"  :-o :-D
"We are surrounded by insurmountable opportunities!"  :cheers:


Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on April 18, 2019, 08:47:28 AM
Even before being trial assembled all cast and machined parts should be thoroughly inspected, deburred and cleaned. Very few parts are ever received ready to be installed if an engine is expected to be reliable and competitive.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on April 18, 2019, 09:15:55 AM
This is one of those many small things FB was talking about when referring to building engines like a pro. It comes down to experience and knowledge, both of which Neil has more of. But it is a PITB getting there.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on April 18, 2019, 09:24:29 AM
Neil,

The oldtime adage from long ago stated, "If it is not on time or doesn't fit, must be racecar parts..." still applies today. 8-) The finalization and detailed inspection of fit and finish is on the consumer, even if the parts are highly touted CNC super duper stuff. Important things such as valve seat concentricity are high on the hit parade for needing a detailed inspection to maintain any kind of QC. As I understand it you worked in aerospace stuff. The lack of QC is somewhat common in most (but not all) aftermarket parts. :roll: Buyer beware good old caveat emptor, my friend. :wink:

Looking at the bright side, at least you found the problem and it is easy to fix. :-D

Continue being careful and it will always pay off.

Best of Luck! :cheers:

Regards,
HB2 :-)

x 2!!   or x 3!!!

Neil,

I don't want to carp on this, BUT, there is no detail too small to check . . . . .

And it is NOT that the guys producing these parts are doing "shoddy" work.    The castings are especially complicated.      OR, your tappet bore in your block may be "out of position" by some amount that makes a difference.   Which is it?    The only guy who can say for sure is:  the guy who assembles it.

Part of my "sign off signature" used to be the phrase:   "Does checking all the little details matter?    I dunno, but I think you should ask the guy who finished second . . . . ."

I removed it from the bottom of my posts because I got tired of "folks" messaging me telling me I was wrong.   And then "they" wanted to argue with me about it . . . . . .  ( not going to "waste" my time on those "folks" . . . )

But, because I see this stuff ALL THE TIME, I'll provide you with a couple of examples:

1/
Just yesterday, a long time friend and client brings me a Cosworth BD head recently redone by a guy experienced in all things Cosworth.    All that was to be done was to check out a new set of valve springs, check the installed height, shim the springs and assemble the valves, springs, etc.    When checking, I noticed that the distance from the bottom of the retainers to the top of the seals seemed small.  So I checked a "little detail".    YUP, negative (-.040"  1mm) clearance between the bottom of the retainer and the top of the seal!!    This is not a cam grind change situation and the cam lift is .41" gross and ~ .40" net.    Further checking revealed early type guides installed in a later type head casting, so the guide top is .10" higher than specification.

When the client contacted the person (shop) that performed the work, his reply was: "No problem, just run it."   So, I then asked the client to bring me his dry sump pan.    In the trough, were 8 of the 16 valve seal collar springs . . . . .

2/
A few weeks ago, a client from a couple of states away dropped off a Cosworth BDH to be check over and then dyno tested.   This is a late 70's spec engine, now for vintage racing.    Replacement value ~ 35K to 40K . . . .
Needed to set the Lucas MFI, check a couple of things out, look it over, etc.   Having a problem setting cam belt tension . . . . . .

14 shop hours later:   (and these are just the "high points" . . . . .)

A/   Cams and tappets assembled with only "a smear" of assembly grease, no oil.    Oil flow to the top end of this engine is "restricted" . . . . . . .
2/   Wrong length or missing mounting bolts for the FI metering unit.    This engine is a "shaker".   Correct bolt length is critical to retention.
d/   Cam belt, as sold by a "Cosworth specialist" was a regular thickness (XL) belt.  Not thick enough to obtain correct belt tension adjustment . . . . .   Belt needs to be a XLH or better yet a special XLHH.     Inadequate belt tension on these engines can be a cause of belts "jumping" teeth and causing cam timing problems which result in a engine full of bent valves . . . . . .

and on, and on, etc . . . . .      When everything was corrected though, engine ran well on the dyno and achieved target bhp & tq.     Proving, to me at least, that: "little details matter".

And this is not just Cosworths that I see this on.    The shop I am affiliated with is drag centric.    Some "recent" issues:

A/   BBC drag engine comes in for dyno test.    Won't roll over smoothly, no dyno.    Valves hitting pistons as engine is turned by hand.
2/   SB Pontiac comes in for dyno test.     Rolls over OK initially.    When filling with water, water rains out between the heads & block.    Customer customer wants to add "block seal".    I suggest rolling engine again.  Won't turn by hand.  Removing spark plugs results in jets of water shot out of several spark plug holes.    Uh, NO dyno . . . . .
d/   SB Ford for dyno test.   Disappointing bhp.     Cam timing check reveals cam 8 degrees advanced from cam grinder's spec.    Owner builder states: "he lined up the marks", why is there a problem?"

I could go on until you puke, but I'll spare everyone.     I think everyone will agree that some of these examples are not "little details" . . . .

Almost 50 years ago, my first mentor opined the a really good engine builder is just: "A perfectionist looking for a place to happen."     It was sage advice then, as it remains today . . . . .

Neil, do not despair.    Checking all the "little details" is ALWAYS the right thing to do.   It can be a PITA, though.

 :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on April 18, 2019, 09:35:21 AM

Youse guys are young enough to remember Pogo!  :x

"We have met the enemy and he is us!"  :-o :-D
"We are surrounded by insurmountable opportunities!"  :cheers:


Yes, I recall.     I thought at the time that it was "profoundly correct"

 :cheers:
M
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 18, 2019, 11:50:08 AM
Youse guys are young enough to remember Pogo!  :x

"We have met the enemy and he is us!"  :-o :-D
"We are surrounded by insurmountable opportunities!"  :cheers:




Yes, I remember Pogo. My best recollection of that strip was their Christmas carol "Deck us all with Boston Charlie. Fa La La La La, alley- gay- roo..."

I don't remember that last one but it reminded me of a quote by a US Marine general, "Retreat hell! We're just attacking in another direction!"


Seriously, thanks for the advice and encouragement, fellows. As you have all advised, I'll check everything.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 18, 2019, 09:21:50 PM
This afternoon I ground about 10 to 15 thousandths off the edge of the head pushrod hole and cleaned the head carefully. Now there is no interference between the head casting and the #6 E pushrod.

I found that CRC Brake Cleaner works very well for removing K & W Copper Coat so cleaning up the copper head gasket was not difficult at all. Denatured alcohol works too but the spray can is more convenient. I re-applied the gasket sealer, this time with a cheapo artist's paint brush instead of the dauber that comes in the lid of the Copper Coat can. The small brush does a much neater job. Now both heads are torqued to 60 ft lbs. Tomorrow I'll pull them up to 70 ft lbs.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on April 18, 2019, 09:49:32 PM
I quit cleaning paint brushes.  Harbor Freight has 4 assorted in a package for $1.49 (or so).  Use 'em, throw them away.  Lacquer thinner will break the bank nowadays.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 19, 2019, 07:10:11 PM
The rockers were cleaned, installed, and set to 0.026" intake and 0.028" exhaust per Crower specs. The crank rotates as it should- no clunks, or squeals.  :-) I checked the inside of the timing gear cover and it showed some evidence of the cam gear lightly scraping the inside of the cover. I wonder if it was supposed to have a gasket? I didn't get one when I bought it so I made one and sealed the cover on with the homemade gasket and Ultra Black RTV.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on April 19, 2019, 07:48:26 PM
The rockers were cleaned, installed, and set to 0.026" intake and 0.028" exhaust per Crower specs. The crank rotates as it should- no clunks, or squeals.  :-) I checked the inside of the timing gear cover and it showed some evidence of the cam gear lightly scraping the inside of the cover. I wonder if it was supposed to have a gasket? I didn't get one when I bought it so I made one and sealed the cover on with the homemade gasket and Ultra Black RTV.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil, you might want to revisit the valve lash. I'm betting that's .026 / .028 HOT.
You should probably tighten them up to .012 / .014 cold being that you have an aluminum block & heads. The lash will grow about that much when warm. When the engine is warmed up and ready recheck the lash & set to the required hot lash if needed. Then recheck when cold to know where the actual cold setting should be for future reference.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 19, 2019, 07:56:57 PM
Yes, Crower specs the lash HOT. I thought that an aluminum block would expand more than the steel pushrods and decease lash but I guess I have that backwards. I'll take your recommended initial COLD lash figures for start-up.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Harold Bettes on April 20, 2019, 01:24:02 AM
Neil and others that might think about this stuff, :-D

Coefficient of linear expansion for aluminum is 22.2 x 10^-6. Starting temp at 75F and ending temp at 200F yields the aluminum growing and the lash will get wider, just like Mike said. The number for reference is the length of the pushrod (on aluminum column), roughly 8" x the delta T of 125F x 0.0000222 = 8.0222" or pretty close to that. Unless I moused up a decimal point.  :?

Good Luck to you.

Regards,
HB2 :-)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on April 20, 2019, 07:45:07 AM
My iron block, 4 cyl, aluminum headed engine had lash grow reliable 0.006" cold to hot. Of course checking hot is a PITA to work on smoking motor getting valve covers off etc but once you have done it you can set cold as Dynoroom has outlined. Worth the work.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on April 20, 2019, 08:29:22 AM
Something to consider . . . .

When you start "opening up the lash", for whatever reason, you can make dramatic changes to the "valve motion".    Racing cams, in general, have lash ramps that are short to very short.    When lash "opens up", valve motion can begin and end, on the cam flank.    NOT a good idea.    One of the big problems becomes "seating velocity", which varies with lash.    Once seating velocity is "too high", the valve beats up the seat, in short order.    IMO, NOT a good idea.

The cam grinder knows what the grind spec might tolerate within the engine, and it always pays to heed their "instructions".   The general rule is that you can typically "tighten lash" more than you can "loosen lash".   Tightened lash during the "warm-up" period is tolerable.   

How much?  It depends on the valve train type; rocker ratio, if any; ramp height; base circle runout; etc; etc.

So yes, it is worth the effort to figure out how much it will change from cold to hot.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on April 20, 2019, 11:32:32 PM
As a note for others, like Jack said Iron block with aluminum heads do not require you to tighten the lash as much as the aluminum block & heads engine.
So, for a reference using a SB chevy, if running an alloy block & heads tighten the lash cold .012 to .016 (I used .014 in my example above)
If running an iron block with alloy heads tighten the lash about .006 to .008.
This is for pushrod engines. Carry on...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 21, 2019, 12:31:38 PM
Thanks for the advice, guys. I'll re-lash my valves to the cold values you suggest. After warm-up I'll re-lash them to Crower's recommended values.

When I was thinking about the relative expansion of the aluminum block vs a steel pushrod, I reasoned that aluminum expands more than steel so that the clearance closes up. I didn't consider that the rocker arm reverses that!

Somehow I overlooked the fact that there was no cam thrust button installed in my initial engine build. I remember seeing it somewhere back then, a steel needle bearing button, but it didn't get installed! I'm sure that accounted for the cam gear rubbing on the inside of the timing cover. It was not too serious but it may have been one source of some aluminum debris in by bearings. Needless to say, this afternoon I'll order a cam button if I can't find my original one.

If the cam moved forward, it must have also fouled up my ignition timing. Hmmm.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 21, 2019, 09:13:01 PM
I found that blasted cam button! It was still in the other gear drive that I had as a spare. Black on black- it was lucky that I found it. Maybe I grabbed the wrong one when I bolted it on. Anyway... It looks like it would be usable if it had all its original shims installed but someone (?) has removed most of them so it's now too short. I've ordered another roller bearing button and a Nylon one just in case I might need it.

It's really hard to get useful information on car parts. It seems like nobody knows much of anything about what they're selling. I tried to find dimensional info on cam buttons and some (Jegs) only showed the dimensions of the box it was packaged in! Really useful. Even manufacturers don't provide much of anything, the prevailing philosophy seems to be "order it and see if it works". Arrrggghhhh.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 21, 2019, 09:14:16 PM
Here is the elusive cam button.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: handyguy on April 21, 2019, 11:05:05 PM
That is quite a piee to be somewhere else !!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on April 21, 2019, 11:42:32 PM
Here is the elusive cam button.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Sorry to keep raining on your parade Neil, it's not intentional.
If you are going to install the thrust button now you need to do a few other things first. This type of thrust button requires some thrust (no less then .010 but ideally no more than .020 IMO) but this means you need to check it. The correct way to do this is when you start the assembly of the engine before the cam plug is in place. But you are beyond that point. So now I would remove all the pushrods so there is no load on the cam, install the bearing & front cover then reach through a lifter bore (after you remove a pair) & using a screw driver on a lobe load the cam forward & back to make sure I have a reasonable amount of movement, not too much, not too little. Especially not too little! At this point it will be your best guess.
Really sorry to keep being the guy who brings a dark cloud.  :|
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on April 22, 2019, 05:53:05 AM
Here is the elusive cam button.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Sorry to keep raining on your parade Neil, it's not intentional.
If you are going to install the thrust button now you need to do a few other things first. This type of thrust button requires some thrust (no less then .010 but ideally no more than .020 IMO) but this means you need to check it. The correct way to do this is when you start the assembly of the engine before the cam plug is in place. But you are beyond that point. So now I would remove all the pushrods so there is no load on the cam, install the bearing & front cover then reach through a lifter bore (after you remove a pair) & using a screw driver on a lobe load the cam forward & back to make sure I have a reasonable amount of movement, not too much, not too little. Especially not too little! At this point it will be your best guess.
Really sorry to keep being the guy who brings a dark cloud.  :|

Neil,

I also am sorry to keep offering possible solutions, "after the fact" . . . . . .

My suggestion is that you take some time and make a list somehow, (I use an Excel spreadsheet), of "check list items", in the order of engine assembly.    Do this now while the memory of how things should be done, is fresh in your mind.   It does not have to be "the perfect list", just a starting point incorporating what you know now, items can always be added or revised.    The great thing about an Excel spreadsheet is that it can easily be "revised" as you go forward.     I suggest you break it down for every operation, no matter how small or seemingly "unimportant".

I think there are several of these available online.    Might require a bit of searching though.    Then just modify it to make it yours.

If you use it as intended, then when you come back to assembling after some "hiatus", you don't have to try to remember where the heck you were and what is done for sure.

It's intended to prevent all those "arrrggghhh" moments . . . . . .

Diligence about records DOES add time to the assembly process.    But I find it helps to provide a better finished project.    And can add "piece of mind" . . . . .

 :cheers:
Mark
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on April 22, 2019, 08:39:58 AM
There's a book out there by Waddell Wilson who built really successful NASCAR engines back in the day. It's called "Racing Engine Preparation" and it's still available but the pricing looks absolutely ridiculous to those of us who bought it when it first came out. Whatever it costs you it's worth it if you follow all the instructions on preparation and assembly. The part numbers were long ago obsolete.

Good luck with the reassembly Neil.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 22, 2019, 12:13:43 PM
Thank you for all of your suggestions and comments, they are truly helpful and I welcome your inputs. After all, that's part of the learning process. Disregarding constructive criticism from knowledgeable and experienced people would be foolish.

DynoRoom:

Measuring the cam button clearance will not be difficult as my timing gear drive cover has a removable flat round plate that covers the cam gear. I'll install the button, push the cam gear to the rear so it seats on its rear thrust bearing, and place a straight edge across the access cover where the cover plate seats and then measure the clearance with a feeler gauge. No need to remove the rear cam plug or lifters thanks to the removable cover plate.

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 13, 2019, 12:59:21 PM
My engine is almost finished but I'll post a picture of it before the intake manifold and valve covers were installed. It is an aluminum block Donovan 383 CID. This particular block was originally sold to Dan Gurney for his "stock block" class Indy car in '82 or '83. He entered it as a "Chevrolet".
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on May 13, 2019, 03:49:08 PM
Wow! This block has some history!


Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 13, 2019, 04:26:30 PM
Yes, it has. I did not know about it until I called Donovan last year to ask about its cylinder liner thickness. They checked the serial number and told me that Dan Gurney's "All- American Racers" had been its original purchaser.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on May 14, 2019, 09:06:39 AM
Wow! This block has some history!


Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
So do the members, Rob!  :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on May 15, 2019, 10:49:09 AM
Neil...Different ratio rockers or are those color coded?  Red hot/blue cold. I can see that simplifying lash setting time.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gray63 on May 15, 2019, 11:09:58 AM
Neil,  It is really cool seeing this engine in actual use rather than someone having it on their shelf or used
as a coffee table in their mancave.
I am looking forward to your future success.

Dave Gray
3611 BGMS Corvette
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 15, 2019, 12:32:36 PM
Neil...Different ratio rockers or are those color coded?  Red hot/blue cold. I can see that simplifying lash setting time.

You guessed it- blue for intake, red for exhaust.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 18, 2019, 01:37:30 PM
Thread hijack:

I found a 1974 photo of me driving the Sabel but it was before the body was mounted. It was the first car that I built, a steel tube chassis with a body designed and built by John Sabel of Rockville, MD. It was powered by a 140 hp Corvair driving a Porsche 914 transaxle. It weighed only about 950 lbs so driving it in an autocross was really fun. I sold the car to a fellow in Md who is doing a full restoration. It will be great to see it back on the road again.

Regards, Neil

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on May 18, 2019, 02:42:08 PM
You know, Neil, I have always wanted to build a road going Sports Racer for the street using much of the small bore stuff I still have laying around. I believe you did something like it with your road going Manta? What primarily held me back was finding the right body. Not sure if that condition has improved over the years.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: robfrey on May 18, 2019, 04:03:15 PM
Neil,
You just continue to get better looking!


Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gray63 on May 18, 2019, 04:22:32 PM
Thread hijack:

I found a 1974 photo of me driving the Sabel but it was before the body was mounted. It was the first car that I built, a steel tube chassis with a body designed and built by John Sabel of Rockville, MD. It was powered by a 140 hp Corvair driving a Porsche 914 transaxle. It weighed only about 950 lbs so driving it in an autocross was really fun. I sold the car to a fellow in Md who is doing a full restoration. It will be great to see it back on the road again.

Regards, Neil


Neil,  I will show this photo to John Sabel.  He will get a kick out of it.
Dave
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 18, 2019, 05:12:45 PM
Please do, Dave. I think he knows Dick Morel, who is doing the restoration.


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 18, 2019, 05:16:00 PM
Neil,
You just continue to get better looking!


Rob Freyvogel
#496
AA/BFS

Awww shucks, Rob! blush....   :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 18, 2019, 05:27:40 PM
You know, Neil, I have always wanted to build a road going Sports Racer for the street using much of the small bore stuff I still have laying around. I believe you did something like it with your road going Manta? What primarily held me back was finding the right body. Not sure if that condition has improved over the years.

John

John;

The road-going (street) Manta Mirage that I have was originally built by Manta Cars in Santa Ana, CA. It was their showroom car until they went out of business. It has a 350 Chevy for power. I do have a spare body (no glass though) if you are interested.

I don't know if John Sabel still has his oroginal body molds (moulds?) for his Sabel Mark III but if he does, it would make a nice little street car. A Subaru engine would be a nice choice for that lightweight chassis & body.

Kit car bodies turn up now and then on eBay & CraigsList but most designs are ugly as sin.  :-(

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on May 18, 2019, 06:22:27 PM
"Kit car bodies turn up now and then on eBay & CraigsList but most designs are ugly as sin."

Therein lies the problem.

I lived in Santa Ana when Manta Cars was in business. I had a shop next to Bill Jongbloed about the time he started making wheels. Bill was good at recruiting free labor so I volunteered a few hours forming wheel hats on a big lathe he had. That's also the time Graham McRae converted his GM2 into a single seat Can-Am car (in Bill's shop). I got to know Graham pretty well and even towed his car to Road America. That was also my first encounter with "brats". Anyway, Bill had this Lola F5000 chassis and wanted to rebody it with original Mclaren CAN-AM. He had the body but never finished the car. I became interested but no way I could handle the $5000 Bill wanted for everything on a teachers salary. That is when I looked at the Mirage.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 18, 2019, 09:26:10 PM
John;

I met Bill Jongbloed quite a while ago at his Chino airport facility and bought a set of his wheels for my street Mirage. Maybe they were ones that you made!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 18, 2019, 09:35:45 PM
An aggravating day  :-P For some reason my transaxle input shaft is not mating up with my clutch. Try as I might, it just won't slip into place. I've tried turning the crank, turning the axle CV, juggling, pushing, swearing, nothing works. It goes on but there is about 3/4" until it is seated properly. I installed the clutch & pressure plate with an alignment tool so they should line up. I am beginning to suspect that the nose of the input shaft is not going into the flywheel pilot bearing. Strange, it did before.

Next I'll unbolt the pressure plate and remove the whole clutch. If it won't seat properly this time then it is not seating into the pilot bearing- a ball bearing. Arrggghhh.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on June 18, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
If you didn't change the pilot bearing or damage it somehow, it has to be an alignment problem. I have had that often even using an alignment tool (some are better than others). Even a very minor misalignment of the clutch disc or the input shaft on slight angle will prevent slipping into place. Can you use long bolts as guide pins to help align? A lot of wiggling and such. But just loosen the clutch bolts so can slide the disc with your tool and try again. Frustrating I know.   
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 18, 2019, 10:48:47 PM
Jack;
My Porsche G50 transaxle slides on to two studs that are in the aluminum adapter so the alignment can't be too far off. I've tried to get the transaxle as level as I can and aligned with the crank. I think checking the pilot bearing fit on to the input shaft will tell me whether it is that or something else. The clutch alignment tool slides in but it isn't a loose fit into the pilot. I suppose the clutch disk could be out of alignment but only slightly.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Dynoroom on June 19, 2019, 01:01:38 AM
You might try pushing the clutch pedal with the input shaft as far into the disks as you can get it. I've done this on my car for the same reason you discribe.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 19, 2019, 12:27:31 PM
Sorry, Michael, that is not possible with a Porsche G50 transaxle. The clutch fork is a pull-type that gets hooked up after the trans is bolted up to the adapter. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jl222 on June 19, 2019, 12:35:34 PM

  We had the same problem. The new alignment tool snout was smaller than the flywheel bearing :x

               JL222
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 19, 2019, 08:49:06 PM
I give up for today. I've tried everything- without the clutch disk & pressure plate, the transaxle slides into place. With the PP but without the disk it slides into place. Install the disk and it won't go, tried many times to move the clutch disk a little this way and that- even tried to loosen the PP bolts so the disk could skide sideways as the trans input shaft went in but there's virtually no adjustment between being so loose that the disk falls down and being so tight that it won't move at all. I've even gone from the new KEP 6-puck metallic disk back to the Sachs organic disk that I had in there before and even that won't go on.  :oops:

I think the plastic alignment tool is not exactly concentric and its tolerances are not tight enough to line up the splines and pilot bearing. I'll try to find someone who has a cut-off G50 input shaft; that should work.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on June 19, 2019, 09:03:44 PM
You didn't change the disc did you? Have you just slid the disc alone onto the input shaft to be sure there is no obstruction?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 19, 2019, 09:27:23 PM
Yes, Jack, both clutch disks slide onto the trans input shaft freely. By now I'm certain that it is misalignment due to the crummy plastic alignment tool.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on June 19, 2019, 09:36:44 PM
OH, it's a two disc clutch? They are even worse (yes I have also). Careful alignment is critical (as you have figured, sorry to repeat). As an actual input shaft is likely hard to come by you have to make do with the plastic one. I have found that pushing the tool up against the back of the crank hard tends to make it a bit more vertical than just wiggling things around and  gently aligning. Since I have been doing that have been much easier to get the thing together. Sorry for the trouble. Hope it comes together tomorrow.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 19, 2019, 10:33:49 PM
It's only a single-disk clutch, Jack. By "both" I meant that each of the two clutch disks (an organic friction German-made Sachs and a KEP six-puck metallic disk), tried one at a time. Sorry for the confusion. I tried pushing the alignment tool up against the pilot bearing but still no-go. I suspect the tool isn't concentric.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on June 20, 2019, 12:07:08 AM
Do you know anyone with a lathe? That's about the easiest thing a person could make and if it's steel you can make the tolerances really close. It will work.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on June 20, 2019, 11:38:02 AM
Would a broken input shaft work with your set-up?  Try a transmission shop.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 20, 2019, 11:47:39 AM
Yes, if the splines and pilot are correct. Thanks for the suggestion, Stan.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 20, 2019, 11:49:02 AM
Do you know anyone with a lathe? That's about the easiest thing a person could make and if it's steel you can make the tolerances really close. It will work.

Pete

That's my last-gasp approach but that should work! Thanks, Pete.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on June 20, 2019, 01:42:12 PM
It only works with a single disc clutch but for that it works perfectly. Once you have more than one clutch disc then you need something to line up the splines.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 20, 2019, 09:46:52 PM
No one in Tucson that I talked to had anything but the plastic alignment that I?ve already been trying. Maybe theirs are more accurate than mine but I think I?ll be able to proceed now that I remembered an old Sears Craftsman ?Universal? alignment tool that was in the bottom of my tool box. See photos. It had a screw-on 15mm pilot already installed so I?m betting that it was what I used to install the clutch a few years ago. It fits the flywheel pilot bearing snugly and the 1? shoulder doesn?t quite go into the disk splines but it does center the disk, I also tried the conical part and it worked even better- no rubberiness like the plastic tool. I?m so confident that it will go together now that I installed all nine socket head cap screws in the pressure plate with blue Loctite and torqued them to 29ft-lbs per KEP specs. I also put a light coat of ARP moly on the splines and nose of the G50 input shaft.

I appreciate all the suggestions that have been offered. This forum is really helpful!

I?m crossing my fingers.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RaceEngineer on June 20, 2019, 10:38:01 PM
Neil,

Glad you remembered your old Sears universal clutch alignment tool.  I was about to ship you mine. 

Regards,

Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 21, 2019, 11:17:08 AM
Thanks, Don. I guess I should rummage through my tool box more often. There may be other forgotten gems in there!  :-)

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on July 08, 2019, 02:55:47 PM
So, you have committed hari-kari or gone on to other things in disgust or the trans magically installed itself or it when together easily, you went to have a few  :cheers: and on to other things to get ready...?? What happened?   :evil: :oops: :-) Inquiring minds and all that.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 08, 2019, 07:20:48 PM
We took off for a week cruise through the western Caribbean but now I'm back to struggling with it. This morning I got the transaxle seated to the Chevy-to-Porsche adapter but I found that the clutch throwout yoke had slipped out of position so it's time to take it apart... again.  :x

A Porsche G50 transaxle clutch is an odd design, it is a pull-type throwout and uses a steel Y-shaped yoke arm that pivots on a shaft running through the transaxle casting. It is notoriously difficult to get aligned properly.

I just talked to Kennedy Engineered Products and ordered one of their bearings for the flywheel. I may wind up removing the ball bearing.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on July 09, 2019, 07:46:26 AM
The part about going cruising for a week sounds like a good plan. I have been trying to prep 2 cars for Speedweek. One is mostly ready. The new engine for the other is not and it will be a World of Speed try. Two trips across country within a month. I'm going to the Bahamas for a week with the whole family on the 20th. Get a start on my salt tan...?.

I hope it works out Neil. Let us know when you figure out what the problem has been.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 09, 2019, 09:05:54 PM
Have a nice relaxing trip. Jack.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on July 09, 2019, 09:09:52 PM
And don't get eaten by a shark...  :?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2019, 11:28:00 AM
FINALLY! Yesterday afternoon I finally got the transaxle bolted up to the block. Lots of aggravation in getting it assembled. Once I thought I had it on but found that the yoke had slipped down from the throwout bearing and I had to remove it once again. The last straw was when I thought I had everything in place but I couldn't turn the crank with a wrench no matter whether the trans was in gear or not. Something was not right.

After removing everything I looked at the new starter ring gear carefully and checked to see if it was the correct one (it was). Looking into the trans integral bell housing, I noticed that there was an indication that the ring gear had scraped across the inside of the upper side. This was a clue that it was not only angular mis-alignment but also lateral misalignment that could cause a problem.

I had found earlier that the throwout bearing could be slid laterally a small amount in its place so since then I had been careful to center it before placing the trans on the two top studs in the block. The only other lateral movement that could occur was the clearance between the mounting holes in the trans and the studs in the block. This time, I supported the bell housing with a jack rather than letting it hang on the studs. This worked! The yoke stayed in place so I was able to slip its pivot shaft into place and bolt on the clutch slave cylinder. The IMI starter is also bolted on now. Everything is now torqued with blue Loctite.

I guess I was just lucky the first time I assembled the transaxle to the block.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RaceEngineer on July 20, 2019, 02:05:18 PM
Neil,
 
Glad to hear you got it reassembled.  Will you be at SW19?  Hope to see you there.

Regards,
Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on July 20, 2019, 03:05:00 PM
Now you can wait 'til the slave cylinder takes a shitt.  I like mechanical action ? probably hard with your setup.  Great story about Dana Wilson setting a roadster record with high gear only . . .
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jimmy six on July 20, 2019, 03:39:57 PM
He wasn't the only one... :roll:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 20, 2019, 04:36:27 PM
Neil,
 
Glad to hear you got it reassembled.  Will you be at SW19?  Hope to see you there.

Regards,
Don

Don, I plan to be at WoS this September.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 03, 2019, 01:09:25 PM
The engine & transaxle are now back in the car and ancillary items such as the starter, headers, etc are installed. I turned on the electric fuel pump switch momentarily to make sure it came on. Four quarts of Mobil-1 10W-30 were added to the engine and 1 quart was poured into the Wix oil filter. Cranking the engine over without ignition resulted in 65 lbs of oil pressure. Next to re- assemble the carb and fire it up.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 05, 2019, 01:38:49 PM
The new Holley billet metering blocks for the carburetor have still not arrived so I went ahead and re-did my battery to starter cables. I had originally used the IMI geared starter manufacturer's figure for current draw but I am pretty sure, in retrospect, that they were quoting the running current, not the initial surge current of spinning the crankshaft. I had calculated that a #6 AWG cable should be OK for a reasonable voltage drop and the engine did start OK but it was clear that the starter was starving for current. Yesterday I made cables from 1/0 AWG welding cable, soldering- on copper terminals on both ends. Rather than removing the #6 AWG positive battery cable to the starter, I left it in place and simply added the new cable in parallel. Instead of relying on the chassis to return current to the negative battery terminal, I made another heavy cable and connected it from the battery to a hole in the aluminum adapter plate from my SBC to G50. The cable is "welding cable", a very flexible multi-strand copper cable with a tough insulation cover.
Snaking the cable through the chassis with the bodywork still attached was a chore. The car was raised off the shop floor on jack stands so there was very little clearance under the car. I told my wife that had I not been an active caver in my younger days I would not have been able to do it.  :-D
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 06, 2019, 12:41:10 AM
That was a good idea to make the ground cable.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on August 06, 2019, 03:53:36 AM
Neil:

We wired the lakester in pretty much the same way. I used Interstate Battery for #2 cable and end fittings. Not sure all IB stores do this but the one out here in Wichita carry?s everything to make these cables. Having them cut and crimp cable and cable ends was the answer and quite inexpensive (except for the cable).

We too use one common ground from the engine instead of chassis ground. Much, much more consistent.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 07, 2019, 10:04:45 PM
Yesterday I cranked the engine without the spark plugs and it didn't sound much different from doing the same thing with the smaller battery cable. Today I installed the plugs and cranking was a real difference. The #6 cable loaded the starter noticeably when cranking the engine against compression. With the new heavy cables it REALLY spins over.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 07, 2019, 10:21:23 PM
My thermostat housing has two threaded holes that I had originally plugged with straight pipe thread plugs that fit. Yesterday I removed the larger one on the top and drilled & tapped it through with a 7/16 NF thread. I had a handful of surplus something-or-others marked "TEDECO" and a part number which I tried to look up unsuccessfully. They are a nice little stainless valve of some sort with a spring-loaded plunger and an o-ring sealed cap. I threaded this thing into the tapped hole and sealed it with thread sealant and an o-ring then put the modified plug back into the thermostat housing.

I have put 3 gallons of distilled water into my cooling system and pressing the spring-loaded plunger down speeds up the cooling system fill. I can feel a gentle rush of air coming of of the valve when it is depressed and the water level drops in my header tank. I still don't know what that thing is... but it works nicely.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 07, 2019, 10:23:09 PM
Two more photos.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 11, 2019, 09:52:21 PM
Wednesday afternoon I fired the engine for the first time since I rebuilt it and it was LOUD. Fortunately we live in an area where lot sizes are >1 acre so the "next door" neighbors weren't irate. :rolleyes: The idle is much too high and can't be adjusted any lower. I think my carb has a serious problem so I ordered a new Proform black race series 850 cfm to replace the old Holley 850 "double-pumper".

Black Race Series Carburetor; 850 CFM, Mechanical Secondary, Black & Purple | #67303
www.proformparts.com

It should arrive by the end of next week so I'm working on other things right now.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 11, 2019, 10:15:45 PM
Today I revised my shifter to make it a standard shift pattern instead of a reverse one. I had originally thought that it was easier to fabricate the linkage with the fore and aft position reversed and that I'd just get used to the "backwards" shift pattern. It turned out to be more of a bother than I thought it was going to be. Years ago I built a small Sabel sports racer with left hand shifting on the Porsche 914 transaxle and I found that it was not a difficult thing to learn- but the shift pattern was a "standard" one. I guess I'm just stuck with my old habits... 1st gear is supposed to be to the left and forward.  :-)


To reverse the fore and aft motion of the shift rod, I revised the shifter to pivot on a rod end bearing above the push-pull/rotate tubing instead of below. The link uses two high misalignment rod end bearings (made by Fabroid) with a threaded tube between them. This allows the link to rotate and swivel as the shifter moves through its pattern. In the photos the short yellow link will be replaced with a longer 7" swaged- end tube. The bracket is bolted to a transverse rectangular chassis tube with four 10-32 Phillips head titanium screws. The shifter rotates fore & aft on a 1/4" titanium bolt riding on a thin nylon insert bushing ( the top hole in the photo).
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on August 12, 2019, 09:56:39 AM
Neil,

I am interested in seeing how the whole linkage works. I have been thinking about a setup like this for a while. I have a TREMEC 600, I believe I have seen the set up I am looking for in trans am style Mustangs and Camaros. Not been able to find any pictures of a linkage shifter system that gives me enough detail to copy one.

My seat is set back a lot. My shifter is too far forward. The problem was solved by building an extra long shifter. I can change gears fine but it does have a long throw which can lead to missed gears. I would like to build a linkage system and have a shifter moved back in a more natural position.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 12, 2019, 12:18:45 PM
BR;

My complete shift linkage is too convoluted to show in a photo. My car is a mid-engine layout so my transaxle is all the way to the rear. The shifter rotates and moves a 3/4" OD tube fore & aft. There are two Apex u-joints and intermediate tubes running in Thompson ball bushings.

Your setup is quite different and might benefit from a pantograph- type linkage to transmit the motion from your shifter to the transmission.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on August 12, 2019, 01:29:10 PM
Rats!

I'll keep looking. It is one of those things I know I have seen somewhere but can't seem to find it.

Thanks,

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 14, 2019, 09:19:47 PM
The 7" long threaded aluminum tubing arrived this afternoon. This is how it looks; I will shorten it a bit by turning it further onto the threads of the rod-end bearings.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 14, 2019, 09:33:58 PM
Having determined that my old "bargain" Holley DP 850 was shot, I ordered a new Proform 850 to replace it and it arrived yesterday evening by FedEx. It looks a lot nicer that the old cast zinc Holley and it has a four-corner idle adjustment which the Holley did not have. I can't say much in favor of its tarty black & purple tarty color scheme but I'll mount this on my engine and fire it up on Saturday.
The replacement ACDelco thermostat also arrived today and I checked it in a pot of boiling water. It opened about 1/4" so it is OK, unlike the one I just removed. It has a small air bleed hole to make expelling air when filling the cooling system easier.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 15, 2019, 09:02:36 PM
Are the float bowls mounted OK?  It looks like the drain screws are on top.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on August 15, 2019, 10:06:30 PM
Are the float bowls mounted OK?  It looks like the drain screws are on top.

Those aren't drain screws Bo. Those are the adjusting mechanism for setting the float level.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 16, 2019, 08:24:10 PM
Pete is right. On a Holley, turning the hex nuts adjust the float level up & down.

I just did that on my new Proform 850. I installed it this morning in an almost "out of the box" condition; the only thing I did was torque the bowl screws to 50 in lbs per instructions and set the fuel level in the bowl a bit lower. This carb has glass sight windows to view the fuel level, a BIG improvement over the Holley "remove the brass plugs and let the fuel dribble out" system.

I put in a new "Robertshaw" high flow thermostat after I checked it in a pot of hot water. It opens much wider than even the new ACDelco one. The engine fired right up without any problems at all. I'll need to adjust the 4-corner idle screws when I find my vacuum gauge.

The shifter is now in and adjusted.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 16, 2019, 09:08:42 PM
https://youtu.be/Ug6braYzEn0

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 21, 2019, 11:04:19 PM
I was letting the rear of my car down from jack stands and inadvertently dropped it too fast and a pair of wood blocks that I was using as spacers to raise the jack travel higher slipped and the car fell about 6 inches. Wouldn't you know it- the jack stand hit the rearmost shift rod (actually a 3/4" OD tube) and bent it into a question mark. Arrggghhh.  :oops:

I had planned to replace it and one other part of my shift linkage anyway so that wasn't a complete disaster. I bought some Thompson Case 60 ground & polished rod a while ago for that purpose since the linkage runs in ball bushings. The problem started when I tried to drill the shaft for universal joint retaining bolts. A high speed drill would not touch it and neither would a cobalt drill. Not having a carbide drill, the hard surface of the shaft was resisting my attempts to drill a hole through the rod. Thompson says their surface hardness is 60 Rockwell C minimum and typically 62 RC.

The solution was to grind off the hard outer surface on both sides of the rod, exposing the softer inner core. I used a Dremel tool with an abrasive and it worked very well. I was finally able to drill the through hole with an ordinary high speed #10 drill. Cutting the rod to length with a hacksaw was impossible but an abrasive cut-off disc worked just fine.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 22, 2019, 11:42:01 AM
I removed my main power relay to check the condition of its contacts. This relay is able to be easily disassembled, unlike most others. I was surprised to find that the contacts looked virtually new, no wear, arcing, or pitting. Not bad for a relay that probably dates from the 1940s.

I can't find any reference to its part number on the internet but it is a style that is still in production (but modernized somewhat) by Cutler-Hammer & Eaton. This style was predominately used as an aircraft engine start contactor... but what aircraft? Most military planes had 24V electrical systems by then but this relay is 12V. Any guesses?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 24, 2019, 12:33:41 AM
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/united-states-superintendent-of-documents/monthly-catalog-of-united-states-government-publications-volume-49-july--de-2ti/page-53-monthly-catalog-of-united-states-government-publications-volume-49-july--de-2ti.shtml

It is a "Relay:  current, Type A-3 (battery and starter circuit); June 14, 1943 (Wright Field Dayton Ohio)" as per the attached.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 24, 2019, 11:31:23 AM
Amazing! You are a great detective to find that- thanks!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 24, 2019, 08:07:55 PM
I re-designed my shift linkage. The gear change shaft on a Porsche G50 both rotates and moves in and out so I used a series of straight shafts running in Thompson ball bushings to accomplish the shift motion. The rinky-dink way that I had to reverse the shaft rotation was not really very satisfactory so I came up with the approach shown in the photo. I used Ruland shaft collars to fasten the swing arms to the 3/4" shaft and 16mm trans shifter. I drilled holes to bolt everything together and used a surplus threaded link to couple them together.

The shaft collars are nice- they can be loosened and allow their positions to be adjusted.

Regards, Neil
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Interested Observer on August 24, 2019, 10:00:57 PM
Neil,
Given the Heim joints on the threaded link, how does any longitudinal movement of the shift linkage shaft get translated to the transmission input shaft?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 24, 2019, 11:09:54 PM
Good question, IO. You're paying close attention.  :-)

I did not have any threaded clevis so I had to use spherical rod end bearings. One is a 1/4" high-misalignment bearing and the other is a normal 3/8". On the 3/8" bearing I used three very thin large shim washers on each end of the ball. This is enough to prevent angular movement of the ball while still allowing easy rotation. In essence, it is "fixed" and having one end that is fixed is all that is needed.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Koncretekid on August 25, 2019, 07:54:53 AM
Any reason not to fix the other spherical rod end joint in the same fashion to make it even more resistant to flexing? 
Tom
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 25, 2019, 11:11:06 AM
Any reason not to fix the other spherical rod end joint in the same fashion to make it even more resistant to flexing? 
Tom

Tom, one of the bearing balls needs to be free to allow for the rotation necessary because of the fact that the shift rod and the transaxle are not parallel. It's not much motion but it is necessary.

I do have another idea of how to stiffen the arms; I'll try it today.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on August 25, 2019, 12:15:30 PM
PM sent.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 25, 2019, 08:49:51 PM
The swing arms I made were a little too flexible so I cut some 1/2" square steel tubing and inserted two , one inside each edge, and riveted them in place. This stiffened the assembly considerably and the shift motion feels good now.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 29, 2019, 07:09:15 PM
I fired up the engine yesterday, let it warm up, and adjusted the new Proform 850 Racing Series carburetor idle mixtures and idle speed. I had an intake manifold vacuum gauge connected and it showed 11 inches of mercury @ 1,000 RPM idle. This sounds reasonable since I am running a Crower 00427 mechanical roller cam, 290 degrees intake (advertised) and 260 degrees @ 0.050 lift.

It sounds good and the throttle response is very crisp. Far better than the old Holley.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 06, 2019, 08:25:18 PM
Last year tech did not like the location of my fuel filler cap and tank vent; it was considered to be "in the cockpit" so with the help of a friend, a few borrowed fittings from the Turbinator guys, some pop rivets, and a few lengths of thin stovepipe from Ace Hardware in Wendover, I "walled-off" the cockpit from the fuel filler & vent. The flattened-out stovepipe ran all the way to the top of the roll cage but there was zero visibility out of the right side window. Not good- but OK for a temporary fix.

This week I removed all the thin sheet metal and fabricated an isolation panel out of some scrap 0.080" 5052-H34 aluminum that I had. I riveted an extruded 2024-T3 right-angle piece to the bottom so that it could be fastened to a chassis tube. Another piece of aluminum is fastened to the top of the panel using 5 right-angle floating captive nuts. When the door is closed , it seals against a rubber strip on top of the outer edge of it. I still need to complete the caulking (3M 2000+) and install the rubber strip.

Time is getting short....

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on September 08, 2019, 11:07:13 AM
It would be nice if all cars had light colored chassis, engine bay panels, and under the hood parts, like you have done.  It makes it much easier to see what is in there. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 08, 2019, 09:16:25 PM
I can't claim to have done it on purpose, WW. I protect the aluminum panels with a yellow zinc chromate primer and the chassis is finished with some polyurethane that I bought surplus from the USAF. It just happened to be yellow.  :-)

Today I finished the panel to isolate the cockpit from the fuel cell filler & vent. It seals against the lower lip on the upper door when it closes.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: MattGuzzetta on September 25, 2019, 02:46:47 PM
Hello Neil,
I have looked at all the listed runs on the WOS site and did not see any runs with car 291.  Did you finally get to run or were you still running into inspection woes? I follow your build on this forum and love the car, need to run that dang thing. As the results have not been posted for Monday, I hope you did get at least one or two runs in! Did you run and how did it go, if you did?
Keep up the information on your build site, love your car!  8-)
Matt Guzzetta
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 25, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
Thanks for the interest, Matt. Yes, I had a problem in tech, my helmet was not completely below the top of the roll cage. It was about 1/4" too high, even with my scrunching down as far as I could and even with modifying the seat as much as we could in the pit. It was clear that I'll need to fabricate a whole new seat that will allow my butt to move a bit forward so that my helmet will be lower. My friend Wayne Ludington and I had done all we could so it was time to pack up and head home.

My thanks to Jeff Nish and Rob Freyvogel who both loaned me their spare helmets to see if they would help. The USFRA loaned me a -5 firesuit that gained me a little over my thick -20 suit. Thanks to everyone who helped.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: MattGuzzetta on September 25, 2019, 04:37:08 PM
Thanks for the quick reply Neil!  Bummer, you have made 2 trips (if my memory is correct) to Bonneville without being able to make a trip down the track.  I commend you for the tenacity to keep making the effort and hope you finally make the show!  Maybe you can make it to an event at El Mirage to see what else you need to tweek to make it through tech, it would be a shorter trip and get you cleared for a real run at Bonneville.
I love your monocoque work and all the aircraft fittings in your car, very cool.  The 500cc Streamliner I built was a monocoque built with fiberglass, with construction urethane foam sandwich as the main structure. I used to send photos of the build to the SCTA to explain wihat the structure was internally as there was no way to see the actual structure when it was painted.  Plenty of work in the 60's as a student!

Hope you get to run next year!
Matt Guzzetta
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 25, 2019, 04:47:45 PM
Thanks, Matt. Your little streamliner sounds interesting!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2019, 06:10:18 PM
The swing arms I made were a little too flexible so I cut some 1/2" square steel tubing and inserted two , one inside each edge, and riveted them in place. This stiffened the assembly considerably and the shift motion feels good now.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Well, after a number of shift cycles, that approach was not satisfactory after all- the steel arms were too thin and even after being reinforced it started to flex. Back to the drawing board- or the stash of surplus stuff.  :-)

With my little hobby bandsaw, I cut two new swing arms out of 1/2" 6061-T6 aluminum plate, made a 3/4" hole in one and a 5/8" (nearest to 14mm) hole in the other using aircraft counterbores. They cut a nice clean hole that is also pretty accurate. I drilled and tapped two 1/4-28 holes in each to act as set screws. On the opposite end of each swing arm I drilled a 3/8" hole for the link bearings.

From somewhere I had bought a few odd tube ends that had ball bearings staked in one end and the other end was bored 3/8"- a perfect fit for a 3/8" spherical rod end bearing that I had. Clean both the made threads and the inside of the hole, apply some good ol' JB Weld epoxy and Voila!- a nice link for connecting the swing arms.

The G50 shift rod moves in and out as well as rotates and the rotation is opposite to the normal shift pattern, necessitating the link monkey motion. The G50 end swing arm needs to be able to rotate but be stiff when pushed & pulled. Since the G50 shift rod and the long shift rod are not parallel, there needs to be a bearing on the other swing arm that can accommodate rotation in two axes but also be stiff when pushed & pulled. A spherical rod end bearing does this nicely. I ground a two small divots in the end of the long shift rod to prevent the set screws from slipping on the 3/4" Thompson ground & polished shaft. It has a hard 60C surface so set screws would not be able to bite into the surface otherwise.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2019, 06:14:01 PM
Here are the latest shift linkage photos. I think this approach will be OK.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on November 04, 2019, 09:37:52 AM
very nice work Neil. Carry on.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 19, 2019, 06:50:59 PM
I'm continuing my work on improving my shift linkage. One of the problems I have in smooth shifting the linkage is the geometry. I had the shifter link pivot point located above its end that is fixed to the chassis. Moving the shifter from 1st to 2nd and from 3rd to 4th generated a downward force on the shift rod where it slid through the Thomson ball bushing. Conversely, shifting from 2nd to 3rd and from 4th to 5th generated an upward force. Moving the ends of the link to the same level reduced this quite a bit.

From examining the present shift rod, it is clear that the 3/4" mild steel tubing was not satisfactory. The surface was being indented by the small ball bearings in the ball bushing. Grooves are visible in it where the balls have rolled; this also causes rough shifting across the neutral gate. I will replace the mild steel tubing with Thomson ground & polished shaft. This has a precision diameter and has a vary hard 60 Rockwell C surface.

While I'm at it, I'll move the shifter & shift rod over about 2" to get it a bit further from my right thigh. This requires new mounting brackets for the two forward ball bushings, so I  made two brackets by adapting two nice aluminum right angle brackets that I had in my surplus aerospace stash.

BTW, the four odd-looking orange "nuts" fastening the ball bushing to its mounting plate are called "Hy-Locks". These are prevailing torque lock nuts that have a narrow groove machined around their ends. At a specified torque, the hex end breaks off. This guarantees that they are tightened correctly and does not require a torque wrench.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 19, 2019, 06:52:59 PM
A few more pictures.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 19, 2019, 06:54:13 PM
More.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 19, 2019, 06:55:03 PM
Last one.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ggl205 on November 19, 2019, 11:11:53 PM
Looks like linear bearings, Neil. If they are, your problems should be resolved. Some linear?s are even adjustable for wear.

John
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on November 19, 2019, 11:25:12 PM
Happy Birthday to you, Neil.    :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on November 20, 2019, 12:54:10 AM
Looks like linear bearings, Neil. If they are, your problems should be resolved. Some linear?s are even adjustable for wear.

John

And may he have the requisite number of runs to require that adjustment!  :cheers:

Happy Birthday, Neil.    :friday

Mike
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Saltfever on November 20, 2019, 05:25:17 AM
I think I see wipers on the linear bearing but is that enough? How are you mitigating the ever present salt problem?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 20, 2019, 09:49:12 AM
These two bearings are inside the cockpit so salt should not be a problem.

Thanks for the birthday wishes, fellows.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on November 20, 2019, 12:46:04 PM
Happy Birthday Neil!

WRT "inside the cockpit so salt should not be a problem" uuuuuhhhhhh, good luck with that. It gets eeevvvveeerrryywwwhhheeeerrreeee.  :evil:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 20, 2019, 01:35:27 PM
Happy Birthday Neil!

WRT "inside the cockpit so salt should not be a problem" uuuuuhhhhhh, good luck with that. It gets eeevvvveeerrryywwwhhheeeerrreeee.  :evil:  :cheers:

Thanks, Jack. I should have said "...not be as much of a problem."  :wink:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 20, 2019, 02:47:16 PM
Lube with Gibbs oil, pretty good a controlling corrosion. Or better yet soak the shaft in Gibbs oil for a couple of weeks.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 20, 2019, 02:59:11 PM
Thanks, Rex. I'll look into that. I was planning on lubing the linear bearings with Red Line synthetic grease. There is a 1/4-28 threaded hole in the side of the housing for a grease fitting (I think) that has a rubber plug in it now.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 21, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
Regarding that second paragraph in my earlier post - here is a photo of the mild steel shift rod. The small ball bearings have indented the surface of the shaft, making the shifting rough, especially going laterally through the neutral gate. The ground & polished shaft with a surface hardness of 60 Rockwell C should cure this problem.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 21, 2019, 07:12:35 PM
Sure makes it a good anti rotation shaft! Not what you are looking for. The Thompson hardened shafting is the only way. As I remember the core of the shaft is usually not hardened, not real soft but you can drill and tap.

Regarding my suggestion about the Gibbs Oil, I have a collection of very old machinist measuring tools, dividers, compass's , inside and out side dividers etc. When I got them they were pretty corroded and hard or impossible to adjust. I cleaned them up real good and them soaked them in Gibbs oil for about a week. They have been hanging above my lathe for 5 years through summer heat, winter cold and rain and no rust. Good stuff.

Rex   
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 21, 2019, 09:36:06 PM
The Gibbs oil is also a good lube for places where lesser oils drip or fling off such as the jaws in a lathe chuck.  As a sidenote, i had to stop using it to lube the lathe ways.  The metal chips stuck to the oil coating and were hard to remove.  It is a good lube.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 24, 2019, 11:51:28 AM
To racers everywhere, especially Rob & Sue Freyvogel.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on December 24, 2019, 05:19:11 PM
I'll attach a scan of a Christmas card drawing made by my friend Bill (William S.) Gregory back in 1959 when we were both in college at William and Mary. His nickname was "Weed" but not for the reason that you probably think.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 19, 2020, 07:46:36 PM
I have put more work into my shift linkage than I should have but I want to get it right. I replaced the mild steel tubing that I used for my shift rod with ground & polished Rockwell 60C and it really improved the back & forth motion- far smoother and easier. I was pleased with those results but the shaft rotation in the Thomson linear ball bearings was not as good as I wanted. Fore & aft motion allowed the ball bearings to roll in their tracks but shaft rotation resulted in the ball bearings skidding across the surface of the shaft instead of rolling. My mistake. I pulled those bearings & housings out and made plain bearings from some UHMW polyethylene and the feel was not bad. However...
  Just by accident I found that Thomson also makes Flouroplastic- lined plain bearings in housings that are the same size as their ball bushings. I ordered some and tried them on the G & P shaft- perfecto! Now I'm replacing the ball bushings with the plain bearings. I'm not finished yet but this looks like the best solution so far.
  The shaft and bearing ID are very precision so they allow only +/- 0.5 degrees of misalignment. I installed the bearing housings as close to alignment as I could and then loosened the screws holding the bearing housings to allow them to "float" just a little to make the bearings "self- aligning".
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on January 19, 2020, 10:13:54 PM
I'll bet the Flouroplastic- lined plain bearing holds up to the salt better than the linear balls...
You can't spend too much time on any part that makes or breaks a run... quick positive shifting is kind of important... most vehicles are not Betsy  :wink:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Beef Stew on January 20, 2020, 12:41:08 AM
Delrin?, and engineering plastic from DuPont? make a superior bearing surface. Global West uses it for their suspension bushings. It's easy to find, and it isn't hard to machine.

I like Neo Synthetics. Their grease works well on both Delrin? and rubber. I used it on both of the four wheel drives, and the Chevelle. Their 75W90 gear oil was in all five differentials.

While on the subject of chemicals, has anyone ever used WaterWetter?? I first came across it in the 1960s. It was originally designed for Fire Department use. It takes the bubbles out of hot water, so that the engine will run cooler https://www.redlineoil.com/waterwetter You may not need it for the race-car, but it could be helpful for your truck.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on January 20, 2020, 01:24:08 AM
While on the subject of chemicals, has anyone ever used WaterWetter?? I first came across it in the 1960s. It was originally designed for Fire Department use. It takes the bubbles out of hot water, so that the engine will run cooler https://www.redlineoil.com/waterwetter You may not need it for the race-car, but it could be helpful for your truck.


I use it in the race bike for the corrosion protection it provides.

  Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on January 20, 2020, 09:40:30 AM
We currently use BG Super Cool for lube, corrosion and help keeping the water in contact with the hot surfaces inside the motor. 
We have used Water Wetter as well in the past for the same reasons.... it all works.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on January 20, 2020, 09:20:14 PM
I have also used "Hyper-Lube super coolant" but always have a bottle of it present because it's the same green color as antifreeze.

  Don

Sorry about the hijack Neil 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 21, 2020, 11:08:26 AM
Actually, I appreciate this information about coolant additives. I would rather have some anti-corrosion in my cooling system but since ethylene glycol was outlawed I've been using plain water. Now I will try one of those additives. Thanks!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Saltfever on January 26, 2020, 12:40:43 AM
Anybody know what these additives due to the freezing point of the water.

El Mirage can get well below freezing in November .
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on January 26, 2020, 09:35:34 AM
A pint in 6 gallons can't be very effective for freeze protection... but I don't think any of them claim it will help that part... It is used for lube and keeping water attached to hot surfaces. 
If it's gonna freeze ya better drain it out
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 31, 2020, 07:01:54 PM
I made another small improvement to my shift linkage. The end of the shift rod has a 1/2" 6061-T6 right angle piece that functions to rotate the transaxle shaft and push it in & out. I used an aircraft counterbore to make a 3/4" hole for the 0.750" shift rod. It turned out the hole was bored about 0.020" oversize so I used some 1/4-28 set screws to secure it to the shaft. This worked OK but I thought that I could reduce the chance of rocking back and forth when shifting by adding a second thickness to it. By bolting the two pieces together with a 5/16-24 Ti bolt, the two pieces are held rigidly together. So far so good...
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on January 31, 2020, 10:52:26 PM
Neil, you could put some divots in your rod for the 1/4 set screws to prevent any slipping/rocking issues.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on February 01, 2020, 10:53:10 AM
Neil, you could put some divots in your rod for the 1/4 set screws to prevent any slipping/rocking issues.
 :cheers:

Yes, I plan to do that when everything is adjusted to its final position. Here is what I'll do (but without the hole). Set screws don't bite into the Rockwell C60 surface of that shaft.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 03, 2020, 09:12:12 PM
I just posted a video on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUAYETAsdL0&feature=youtu.be

It's my first time at putting one together.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on May 03, 2020, 10:40:43 PM
Nicely done Neil.    :cheers:

  Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 03, 2020, 10:58:25 PM
Thank you, Don. This was my first effort at creating & editing a video.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: desotoman on May 03, 2020, 11:05:12 PM
Neil,

That was great. You video looked like a professional did it. Thanks for sharing.
 :cheers: :cheers: :clap :clap

Tom G.

PS. Put that puppy on a chassis dyno and get a basic tuneup.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 03, 2020, 11:08:48 PM
Thanks, Tom. I plan to do that when things get back to normal.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wobblywalrus on May 03, 2020, 11:24:19 PM
That movie is well done. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 03, 2020, 11:26:42 PM
Thanks, WW. I'm new to video stuff.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on May 04, 2020, 09:37:46 AM
Nice video Neil.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on May 04, 2020, 09:45:01 AM
Neil:

Good job, I enjoyed it. You might hold a record for the most work per mile per hour!

The car will be fast, just need an event and good salt to let that beast eat!

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 04, 2020, 10:31:06 AM
"You might hold a record for the most work per mile per hour! "

That is a dubious honor for sure!  :cry:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on May 04, 2020, 01:25:07 PM
You are in good company. There are a lot of us.

You car looks great on the salt. Neil I am certain there is a record in your future. Enjoy your workmanship.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: DallasV on May 04, 2020, 01:40:10 PM
This could be an educational video on what to expect the first time you bring you car to car to the salt. It looks so easy when you see those racers that have been doing it for years and years but we have all experienced what this video shows.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on May 04, 2020, 01:44:22 PM
Neil,
Great video !!!


Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 04, 2020, 02:24:06 PM
Thanks, guys. I value your opinions. I tried to make it technical enough to be informative but still interesting to non-racers.

Getting to drive a car of your own creation on the salt at Bonneville is a reward of its own- a record would be nice but the mere experience of participating in something you've read about ever since you picked up your first copy of Hot Rod Magazine in the Frankfurt High School library in 1956 is something I cannot explain with words.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on May 04, 2020, 03:34:47 PM
Been there - done some of dat! :cheers: :cheers:
[Still doing it! :-P]
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on May 04, 2020, 03:35:40 PM
Well, if there's a record in his future, he'd better re-gear it.  252 at Bonneville and 220 at El Mirage ? both by a couple of rookies, Jesel & Cook.

Don't tell anybody, but Neil has found the hidden speed secret of having a black vehicle.  An old Smokey Unicycle trick ? the surface gets so hot it forces the air away from the surface and good for at least a .001% speed increase. (Your results may vary.  Not useable on cloudy days.  Nimbus clouds preferred.  Will not work in darkness.  Only applicable in mid-August with 1% humidity and no surface moisture.)  Plus it keeps the pussies away that are afraid to touch the surface and work on the car in the pits. 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: ronnieroadster on May 04, 2020, 04:22:59 PM
A couple of rookies, Jesel & Cook LMAO rolling on the floor.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on May 04, 2020, 05:25:55 PM
Thanks, guys. I value your opinions. I tried to make it technical enough to be informative but still interesting to non-racers.

Getting to drive a car of your own creation on the salt at Bonneville is a reward of its own- a record would be nice but the mere experience of participating in something you've read about ever since you picked up your first copy of Hot Rod Magazine in the Frankfurt High School library in 1956 is something I cannot explain with words.

Neil:  Exactly, design and build a car with your own hands, tow is all the way across the United States, (from Fla.) and then have the nerve to drive it!

I had the same feeling of arriving on that sacred salt, driving where other greats had gone before me, fulfilled a life long dream to get there....now all I need is to get back.

BR
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on May 04, 2020, 07:01:20 PM
Well, Neil's done something I'd have no idea how to ? make a video.  And a fine one at that.  I'm looking forward to seeing one from the cockpit on his next attempt.

(I also think gearing for a respectable first try to break 200 is a realistic goal.  His car certainly looks capable of it.)
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 05, 2020, 10:48:20 AM
Tom Burkland-

This was how I originally built my engine. The MFI looked like it was going to be too hard to learn so I switched to an 850 Holley on an Edelbrock 4+4 manifold. It's now running a Proform 850 but in the future I may switch back to the Crower. Looks cool, too.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on May 05, 2020, 12:20:15 PM
We had Crower injection on a big block Chevy sprint car and I loved working with that.

Quite a while earlier a friend and I ran a 215 ci Buick in a Group Seven sports racing car (Can-Am type car) with similar Hilborn injection. Using the correct fuel pump it worked really well in a road race application. With the latter I added a primer system because race officials weren't always big on me spraying gas into the injectors to start it on the grid.

I'd run the injection just for the looks and I think you'd find the performance in the injection as well. You should be able to find someone in your area whose run similar systems and once you've learned to work with them they're easy to work with. I might even look at converting one of those systems to EFI further down the line if I were playing with it.

I really liked the video Neil. Well done!

Pete


Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 05, 2020, 01:04:39 PM
Thanks, Pete.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 05, 2020, 01:34:24 PM
Liked the vid; certainly gave this newbie some inspiration and given the challenges of getting a car you built yourself to the salt, I shall set the first 'target' at 65mph. No disrespect intended - I get it, and bringing something from the UK I suspect a while shed load of things can and will go wrong. Your beastie looks proper fast and the engineering looks solid - doesn't Holley or Edelbrock do a self learning EFI 'carb' set-up - does that make sense in your situation?.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on May 05, 2020, 01:43:30 PM
Neil,
Duke and I run Kinsler mechanical injection on our little 1000 cc Kawasaki and have found that it works very well and most of all it is simple! We run on the main return jet only and do not run a secondary bypass which may be something you would need on your small block. As we run in the fuel class the injection is perfect for adding some "soda pop". Kinsler provides great support and has provided us with our original straight methanol combination and has also provided us with the set up to run as much as 20% nitro. We added an exhaust 02 sniffer last year and it is a real assist in getting the jetting right.

If you happen to re-install the Crower set up I would highly recommend going to a good engine shop (someone that builds sprint car engines) and have them work with you on the set up. You will never get it close otherwise.

Rex

Looking forward to seeing you at the salt this year. Are you doing Speed Week or World of Speed?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 05, 2020, 02:44:54 PM
Rex, I have all the Kisler stuff for the Crower. This engine had been in a sprint car when I bought it. I may also revert to its dry-sump oil system as well. I built in an oil tank when I built this chassis so it's there already but unused right now.

According to Donovan records this block was originally sold to Dan Gurney's "All- American Racers", for their "stock block" Indy car where it was entered as a "Chevrolet".

Regarding an O2 sensor, how far from the exhaust port can it be mounted? As far as in the collector, like a probe?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: RidgeRunner on May 05, 2020, 05:52:58 PM
     Some good info on O2 installation here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyv0wh3fsLM 

     Not mentioned there but it's a good idea for sensor longevity to have it installed pointing down somewhere between the 10 and 2 o'clock positions to avoid condensation forming around the tip and causing issues when the heat element first comes on during start up.

     Another A+ grade on the video from here on the ridge!

                    Ed
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: wheelrdealer on May 06, 2020, 08:57:34 AM
Tom Burkland-

This was how I originally built my engine. The MFI looked like it was going to be too hard to learn so I switched to an 850 Holley on an Edelbrock 4+4 manifold. It's now running a Proform 850 but in the future I may switch back to the Crower. Looks cool, too.

Neil:

Try this, https://racecarbook.com/shop/fuel-injection-racing-secrets-2nd-edition/ (https://racecarbook.com/shop/fuel-injection-racing-secrets-2nd-edition/)

And https://airdensityonline.com/track-results/Bonneville_Speedway/ (https://airdensityonline.com/track-results/Bonneville_Speedway/)

Working through the same concerns with a SBC and a Enderle bug catcher.

BR

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 06, 2020, 11:13:25 AM
Thank you, BR. I just ordered that MFI book and I am looking forward to studying it.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on May 10, 2020, 12:51:37 AM
Neil,
I was doing some Mazda rotary work at Drake Engineering back when Gurney was developing the Chevy small block for Indy racing. As I remember "Stump" Davis was doing most of the work there on the engine. He developed the down nozzle injection for the small block. He bored holes in the head from the spark plug side and then they welded solid round rods into the bored hole, then drill and tapped them for injector nozzles and the fuel was squirted almost directly on the back side of the intake valve. With a lot of development and dyno time they were making some very good HP. Stu Van Dyne, who was working at Drake saw the advantage of this and developed it for dirt car engines. I think the first was Jr. Kurtz's dirt champ car, the Plastic Express, which also picked up an impressive amount of HP from the down nozzle modification and went on to win both the 82 and 83 Hoosier 100. Stu also made them work on 410 sprinter motors. Regretfully Ron Shaver picked up the idea and was given the credit for getting down nozzles on sprint cars when actually it was Stu.

Any way do the heads have plugged ports on the spark plug side?  As I remember Junior's dirt champ motor, 355 cu.in, iron block, was making about 835 hp at 8500 rpm and that was when most of the other cars where making 750 hp max and not turning over 7500. You may have a real piece of history!

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on May 10, 2020, 09:41:19 AM
Interesting history, Rex. I bought this Donovan as a bare block- no heads, crank, etc. It came from the Seattle area and I heard that it had been in a boat used for off-shore racing. I had it drop-shipped to Donovan where they replaced a couple of cylinder liners and then shipped it to me.

Having those heads would be sweet! Do you know that block serial number?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on May 10, 2020, 02:22:52 PM
Neil,
No luck on the S/N for the block as I was working mostly on rotary stuff at Drake so was only involved with the Chevy stuff as an interested observer. My bet is that the original heads are pretty much gone as all of the machine work and welding probably had an effect on their life. After the down injectors worked out so well, Brodex made special heads that had the injector bosses already cast into them.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 30, 2021, 01:46:39 PM
My original YouTube build diary had no narration, only some text titles, so it wasn't very helpful in telling the story of the details of my build so I re- edited it completely. Now it has a narration soundtrack so it may be a bit more interesting but it does run pretty long (about 56 minutes!) so grab a beer or two to watch the whole thing.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFu8QfUVHlU
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on January 30, 2021, 04:13:19 PM
Lunch and a coffee did the trick Neil. That was a really well done video.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Bye the way, once you get the hang of it the Crower injection is a piece of cake. We ran it on a big block Chevy powered sprint car. Power was never a problem.

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on January 30, 2021, 04:36:00 PM
Thanks, Pete. I'll probably go back to the Crower when I get things sorted out.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 09, 2021, 09:01:13 PM

I noticed that my quick-release steering wheel hub seemed a bit loose on its spline so I decided to replace it. On another car I had used a hex shaped quick-release hub but it had more play than I thought it should have. I drilled and tapped a hole in the hex aluminum hub for a screw with a knob on the end. I tightened the screw just enough to remove all the play, similar to a "gib" screw on a milling machine, etc. This worked but made it more difficult to slide the steering wheel off.
After looking at many quick-release steering wheel hubs, I decided on a splined hub from Mark Williams. The splined sleeve slips over 3/4" dia tubing steering shaft and either bolts in place or is welded. The hub itself is internally splined with one tooth missing for indexing. This slides on and off easily but has virtually no play. If you are looking for a nice quick-release steering wheel hub I recommend you look at the ones from Mark Williams.
 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 12, 2021, 08:33:28 PM
I've been working on my car, getting it ready for Bonneville in September, I decided to take off the front fiberglass so that I had easier access to a few things under there. Arrrggghhh... dirt and salt everywhere. The salt I can understand but the dirt? I've never been to Elmo.  :x 

Cleaning everything up is a PITA but it needs to be done. It is a good thing I live here in the dry desert or the salt corrosion would be far worse. It's a good thing I don't drive this on the street. If I got stopped by the police I'd probably be taken away in handcuffs- the salt crystals look just like crack cocaine that I've seen on TV.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on June 12, 2021, 11:30:00 PM
That is why we take every panel off the Bockscar lakester when we get home from a race. Corrosion was a lot less of a problem in Denver than it is now since the car in in Stainless's shop in Kansas
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on June 13, 2021, 08:48:21 AM
If I got stopped by the police I'd probably be taken away in handcuffs- the salt crystals look just like crack cocaine that I've seen on TV.

Neil, you already have a record with your carcaine habit!  :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on June 13, 2021, 04:29:06 PM
You may have never been to the salt -- when the salt was made up with salt.  Now the water's dirty 'cause it's from the mud, less than an inch below the salt.

If you're building something for Bonneville, don't delay.  The rail cars are still moving and not much else is happening.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on June 26, 2021, 12:05:27 PM
Tom Burkland-

This was how I originally built my engine. The MFI looked like it was going to be too hard to learn so I switched to an 850 Holley on an Edelbrock 4+4 manifold. It's now running a Proform 850 but in the future I may switch back to the Crower. Looks cool, too.

Neil,

The Crower MFI systems I have seen are "constant flow" Vs the timed Lucas/Cosworth MFI more common on 4 cyl engines.   Regardless, Jim Kinsler and his minions are my go to guys for MFI issues/problems.   They are not cheap, but have always solved any issue for me.  Checked out the link and the book, looks like great info, certainly worth $50.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on June 26, 2021, 02:27:09 PM
I did buy the book you mentioned and it does look good. After I get everything else sorted out I'll switch back to the Crower MFI.

Back in the Can-Am days we ran an M8C McLaren with an aluminum big block Chevy built by George Bolthoff . It used Lucas timed injection. Nobody but Bolthoff ever tweaked the injection.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: fordboy628 on June 26, 2021, 04:00:10 PM
I did buy the book you mentioned and it does look good. After I get everything else sorted out I'll switch back to the Crower MFI.

Back in the Can-Am days we ran an M8C McLaren with an aluminum big block Chevy built by George Bolthoff . It used Lucas timed injection. Nobody but Bolthoff ever tweaked the injection.

Lucas timed MFI has an "operational checklist".   IF, you stick to the checklist, and have the special tools, piece of cake.    If you just "futz around", well . . . . bad things can happen.    George knew what he was doing.   You need the right cam for the application, because the adjustment range is so narrow.    High altitude (Bonneville . . .) needs a different (leaner) cam.

Constant flow is much more "tuneable" and tuner friendly.   And it's cheaper.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 06, 2021, 04:18:40 PM
I've been considering something to hold my driver's side gull-wing door in the raised position after I manually push it open. I have a support rod that can hold it open but I can't raise it from the driver's seat, only from the outside. Initially I thought about using a gas spring and may try one yet but I found another way to do the job.

A straight helical-wound spring has lots of stiffness in compression but if it is pushed sideways, it collapses rather easily. Some clever individual seized upon this principle to create a purely mechanical hold-open. I ordered an all-stainless spring assembly from a marine hardware company for about $20 and gave it a try. I had to remove the lower end attachment for my application and make a bracket that would fit without interference. I had a piece of 3/4" aluminum angle and mounted a floating nut plate in one leg to receive a 10-32 oddball fastener I had. This fastener fits through the lower spring loop end. Both end attachments are riveted in place, as is the nut plate. The nut plate needed small diameter rivets (a #40 hole) and I had a bag of that size Cherry rivets. They were slightly too long a grip length but since they only held the nut plate in place, I would go ahead and use them. The upper end uses 3/16" rivets into the door.

The spring holds the door up nicely and when I push the spring sideways slightly, it goes down. On the downside, the placement results in the curved spring hanging down further than I'd like. I may move it to the rear edge of the door if it won't interfere with my helmet.

One thing more- when working on fabricated parts, de-burr all holes and break sharp edges (this is just basic metalwork) but I recommend also radiusing all those square corners. The corners add no strength but they do add weight and they lie in wait for the unwary. If you've never gashed yourself on a sharp corner when working on your car, it's only a matter of time before you do. Use a belt sander to round off the corners and then break the edges with a file. It looks better, too.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Peter Jack on July 06, 2021, 05:29:54 PM
That's ingenious Neil. Well thought out!!!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Just be careful acceleration or braking doesn't cause the bent spring to go where you don't want it.  muutt

Pete
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 06, 2021, 08:13:37 PM
Thanks Pete, it's a pretty stiff spring- 9" long & 9/16 dia so it doesn't "dangle" when it is bent.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 08, 2021, 12:26:28 PM
Neil,
That is a really cool idea! I am going to uses that some where.

Rex
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: salt27 on July 08, 2021, 02:11:24 PM
That is a creative use of a spring.   :cheers:
The thought of getting ones hair stuck in it is a bit unnerving but I have nothing to worry about myself.  :wink:

  Don
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 16, 2021, 05:24:11 PM
I didn't discover this trick- it's been around a long time but I'll pass along my experiences using it.


Getting to the backside of a bolt to install a washer or get a nut started on its threads is sometimes really difficult (see photo). I was re-installing my front anti-roll bar and each bracket was bolted to the chassis with three 1/4-28 bolts. These extended through a 1/8" aluminum plate and through a vertical 1/8" steel chassis tube. I could barely reach the end of the bolts with one fingertip so getting a nut started on the bolt threads was not easy.

I remembered the old trick of wrapping a piece of tape around one finger, sticky side out,  and sticking a nut to the tape adhesive. This allowed me to position the nut without it falling off into the bowels of the chassis. Although duct tape does work, I tried "Flex Tape" and found that it holds extremely well. For farther reach, wrap the tape around a long flat blade screwdriver. That works well, too, for retrieving parts that have been dropped into places that seen inaccessible.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on July 17, 2021, 09:28:35 PM
Neil...Little dab of silicone in a box end wrench is my go to :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 18, 2021, 12:00:33 AM
Neil...Little dab of silicone in a box end wrench is my go to :cheers:

I've done it that way, too, but it lacks the feel of using your fingertip with tape.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on July 18, 2021, 02:25:31 PM
Neil....My father just yelled into the house for " that kid with the skinny fingers"....🤔
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on July 27, 2021, 07:56:33 PM
It looks like he only way I'm going to scrunch down far enough to get my larger new helmet far enough below the roll cage to pass tech is to remove a brace so that I can get my left knee bent up a little higher. Unfortunately, I have a sheet of 6Al4V titanium riveted in place there. The Ti needs to be cut so that I can cut the tubing brace so I set about that today.

The first thing I tried was a 3" Harbor Freight cut-off wheel. Two abrasive discs resulted in about a 2" cut and the HF motor died.  :x

Next, I hauled out my DeWalt angle grinder with a 4.5" metal-cutting diamond blade and I'm 95% finished with that cut. Lesson: sometimes you can get away with buying cheap $hit but not very often.

 :-(
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 29, 2021, 08:31:52 PM
OK, the offending piece has been removed and it helped getting my head further down below the roll cage. I couldn't bend my left knee up high enough to slide down and forward before. Sitting lower required re-profiling my driver's seat which I've just finished.

I found some stuff that is very good for making templates or covering a workbench to keep it from getting scarred up. It is called "Ram Board", a thick cardboard-like material that is intended to protect floors when moving heavy appliances. It comes in a large roll and it is cheap, about $25 a roll. The Ram Board seam tape is also cheap and useful for lots of applications. It is a thin paper-like tape but it is fairly tough and has a really aggressive adhesive. It even sticks to HDPE paneling, etc.

Now that the seating position problem is solved (hopefully) I re-installed the front bodywork. Thrashing away for WOS 150 Club since I need to get the car sorted out.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on August 30, 2021, 07:27:36 AM
Neil, I just used your spring idea on my hatch prop. I wish I had done it 10 years ago.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 30, 2021, 10:41:42 AM
That's one important function of this forum, to share ideas and information. I can't tell you how much I've learned here from other people. I'm glad it worked for you.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on August 30, 2021, 04:38:23 PM
I'm working on preparing my car so lots of work has been done lately. Today I made a small panel to block an opening in the cockpit. It is a 0.063" thick sheet of 3003-H14 aluminum that I cut, bent, drilled, and finished by scouring it with a yellow 3M bristle disc in an angle grinder. I can't recommend this 3M abrasive disc too highly. It is a unique design that is perfect for de-burring parts and leaving a scuffed finish which provides a "tooth" for paint or adhesives to adhere to. A simple wipe with denatured alcohol is all the preparation it needs before painting. One nice feature is that it doesn't grab the piece out of your hands and fling it across the room!


https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40064927/
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 05, 2021, 09:55:31 PM
I?m thrashing away on getting things ready to leave here on Tuesday morning. I started the engine and ran it for a short time this afternoon. I'll probably increase the secondary idle a bit when it is fully warmed up. This Proform 850 has 4-corner idle so that is an improvement over the old Holley.
 
I hit the starter on Friday to build up some oil pressure and the button went "click"- nothing else. I thought the starter solenoid might be stuck so I hit it a few times with a plastic mallet (with mallets aforethought  :roll:) and then I got a click and a solid solenoid clunk but no starter motor. There was no option but to crawl under and pull the starter off. It?s an IMI mini-starter and pulling it apart wasn?t too bad a job. The starter motor had some rust & corrosion inside the rear of the case, around the brush holder assembly. At some point it must have ingested some water. I cleaned it out as well as I could and tried operating the starter on a battery out of the car. The solenoid operated but the motor did not turn. Probably corrosion on the contacts inside. Disassembly verified that so I cleaned the contacts and burnished them with Scotchbrite and added some grease to the bearings and reduction gears. After putting it back together, the motor ran on a battery so I put the starter back on. I had not foreseen starter problems but at least it?s fixed now.
 
I?m gathering up stuff I need to take in the pickup this afternoon. Things are coming together. Was there ever a racer who didn't tell himself "I should have started on this sooner"?
 
That?s the situation as of now.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 06, 2021, 10:14:03 PM
The saga continues. My friend Wayne Luddington came over at 9 AM this morning to help me load my car on the trailer. Wayne is an old drag racer and flathead engine builder who is riding up with me and has volunteered to help. We were ready to roll the car out of my shop and on to my tilt trailer. I put the transaxle in neutral and we both pushed the car backwards toward the open door, just as I have many times before. This time the car wouldn't budge! Arrrggghhhh. We checked the gear- neutral- and tried again- still stuck. What's going on? This never happened before. We put a jack under the rear and raised the rear tires off the ground; the left tire would turn by hand but not the right. Hmmm. We pulled off the RR wheel and now the hub would turn. Something was wrong, maybe the brake pads were jammed against the rotor by a stuck caliper piston. We pulled the caliper off and pushed the pistons (there are 4 pistons in this Porsche caliper) back with a c-clamp and things looked normal so we re-installed the caliper and re-torqued the wheel studs. Same thing!

It was clear that something was causing drag when the wheel studs were tightened when we put a stack of washers on each wheel stud and torqued then. This eliminated anything from the wheel & tire. We could see that the pads were well clear of the rotor so that wasn't where the problem was. I had noticed that there was what looked like a shiny spot on the inside edge of the inside pad guide but when everything was bolted up, it wasn't possible to see visually. When the lug nuts were loosened, it sounded like there was a light scraping noise when the rotor was turned slowly by hand. To check for interference I put a strip of blue painter's tale across the both faces of the rotor and turned it. Voila! The tape in the inside had a 1/8" piece torn out. That little edge was hitting the inside face of the rotor when the wheel studs were tightened. We unbolted the caliper again and I ground off the offending piece and the problem was finally solved. The big question is why this happened this morning-nothing has changed that I can think of. ????  :?

My wife told be "Race cars and airplanes break just sitting there". My wife is a wise woman.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on September 07, 2021, 09:37:38 AM
Neil, Kilroy made Murphy do it!  :evil:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2021, 01:46:49 PM
It's Monday morning and I'm back home in Tucson. We left Wendover yesterday morning and arrived home late last night after an 800 mile drive hauling the car on a trailer. We lost 3 hours getting our trailed fender re-welded in Boulder City, Nevada. The vibration had cracked a weld but Sparc Welding worked us into their schedule and we were back on the road.

On Friday afternoon I was in the Short Course staging line ready to run, 4 cars back when the course was closed due to high wind. My crew, Wayne Luddington and Chuck Huber towed me back to our pit and we secured things by taking the canopies off of the Easy-Ups, etc. and left for a quick bite to eat at the Salt Flats Cafe.
 
It had rained a little overnight so we had to dry off the car and get things ready. A throttle sticking problem was discovered but quickly fixed by Wayne and Chuck so they towed me over to the Short Course staging line and we waited, gradually moving up. I suited up, got into the driver's seat and fired up the engine to warm it up. Once at the starting line I pulled on my helmet, tightened my belts, and started the engine once again. The starter stooped down to see me through the windshield, gave the "visor down" motion with his hand and indicated that I could go when I was ready.

I shifted into 1st gear, let out the clutch and felt it bite hard and the car moved off down the course. Since this was only a shakedown pass for a "new car", I had planned to take it very easy at first. Also, since it was going to be only a test session, I had enter the car in the 150 Club class rather than run in B/GMS so I had to keep my speed under 159.999 mph or be disqualified. I shifted into 2nd at only about 5k rpm and still had hard acceleration so I just shifted into 5th gear and let the tach needle climb up to about 4800 rpm. I had marked my tach at 5633 rpm which should have been 150 mph so I thought I was going around 130-140 mph and I held it at that speed through the Quarter. Once through the timing lights I let off the throttle slowly and let the speed drop, eventually shifting into 4th and then 3rd, applying brakes very lightly and then I saw a turn-off and drove over to the return road. Since to chase truck was not going to arrive for a while, I drove back down the return road to get air flowing through the radiator to cool the engine. (since I was in the 150 Club it was legal to drive my car as well as be towed) The coolant temperature was 180F so things looked normal so I drove a half mile back towards the starting line on the return road and stopped.

Wayne and Chuck arrived, they hooked up the tow rope and we headed back to our pit. On the way back we stopped at the timing tower to get our timing slip. A fellow ran out, handed it to Chuck, exclaiming "A perfect run!". We looked at the numbers, 157.45852 mph- much faster that I had planned or thought I was going. Somehow I must have used some wrong data to generate my RPM vs Speed spreadsheet. After getting back to our pit we had a look under the rear bodywork- no oil or water leaks, the coolant level was normal and everything looked fine and capable of making another run.

A serious look at the weather prediction for that afternoon showed increasing winds and rain showers which discouraged us from trying another run; also, if I ran 3 mph faster I'd be disqualified so we decided to pack up and call it a day.

We had done what we had planned on doing.  :-D

Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: PorkPie on September 13, 2021, 01:58:06 PM
Neil,

now you be on cloud 69..... :cheers:

after all that years finally seeing a proper time slip....

did you picked your C license for this 157 runs?......you can get them at the 150 club from the USFRA....

if not....ask them....sure you got this time slips framed...

now I wait for more from you and your racer...

stay crazy
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2021, 02:16:37 PM
Thank you for your kind words, Thomas. Yes, I am still smiling. Prost!  :cheers:

The car felt stable but wandered a bit at high speed, maybe it was just me getting used to the car and the salt surface but I may put a tiny bit more toe-in on the front. The engine had much more power than I was using, I was essentially just cruising through the lights trying not to exceed 159.999 mph. I didn't know about the license so I'll check on it. Thank you for mentioning that.

True to form, all the kids who saw my car called it "The Batmobile". I may have to change its name.

Were you there with Stainless this year? If so I'm disappointed that I did not meet you and get to say "Hello".
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: PorkPie on September 13, 2021, 02:38:57 PM
Neil,

nope, I was again back home in Germany as the borders for us tourist from overseas are still closed.....now four years without the salt in the nose.....tough


by the way....if I had been at the salt for the WoS.....you could be sure you have seen me....latest when you was on the starting line at the 150 track for your run.....

to frame you and the racer.....


...and Batmobile.....why not.....
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on September 13, 2021, 02:39:21 PM
Neil- I am not sure I have accurate gear or tire numbers for your car as it sits. However, I have seen significant tire growth in high pressure M/T Bonneville tires. That growth could well account for the difference between calculated and actual speeds. Nice job. Now go for that real B/GMS time.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2021, 02:57:54 PM
Neil- I am not sure I have accurate gear or tire numbers for your car as it sits. However, I have seen significant tire growth in high pressure M/T Bonneville tires. That growth could well account for the difference between calculated and actual speeds. Nice job. Now go for that real B/GMS time.  :cheers:

I think it is just a bonehead error on my part, I need to find out where I went wrong with this simple calculation.

My friend John Horsman, who died last year, was Chief Engineer and eventually Managing Director of John Weyer Automotive Engineering who won Le Mans 3 times advised me that they assumed  4% tire growth at 200 mph in their calculations. I'm running Hoosier road racing tires which should be similar to a Le Mans sports racing tire.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on September 13, 2021, 03:05:59 PM
My above mentioned Bonneville specific tires grew more than that though your number may be in ball park. How much body to tire clearance do you have? Any rub marks? Anyway, nice going.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: gray63 on September 13, 2021, 04:27:49 PM
Congratulations Neil.
It has been a long road and the quest continues.
Dave Gray
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: floydjer on September 13, 2021, 05:28:44 PM
Well done Neil. :clap
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on September 13, 2021, 06:36:37 PM
Excellently done! 

Mike
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2021, 06:57:56 PM
My above mentioned Bonneville specific tires grew more than that though your number may be in ball park. How much body to tire clearance do you have? Any rub marks? Anyway, nice going.

I have a minimum of about 1" clearance between my rear tires and the fiberglass body. No rubbing is evident, Jack.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 13, 2021, 09:16:46 PM
The salt surface was unusually hard and smooth this year. This was only a test run to evaluate the car's performance , not an all-out high speed run. I feel sure that the car will do its calculated 209 mph at 7200 rpm. Maybe next year? When you're 82 years old you keep your fingers crossed!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZnZ3qRed3k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysVSfpmNr0E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nrSbi_DaGM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H3FZ4gV7qk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW1PV_TcSxM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr5zG5r35C8
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: sabat on September 13, 2021, 09:59:13 PM
Congrats! Beautiful pics and video. Sounds fantastic. Cheers, Dean
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 14, 2021, 12:04:13 AM
I saw and heard the run - and THAT was a thrill!. When Neil went to what I thought was 3rd gear, the revs dropped off the table. Turns out he dropped it into 5th, but my first thought was, "Whoa Nellie, that's a wide-ratio box!"
I think "Red Hat" Ross and Neil were the happiest campers on the salt this weekend.
Congratulationa, Neil!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on September 14, 2021, 12:57:46 AM
Excellent! 

Mike
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Interested Observer on September 14, 2021, 09:08:41 AM
Neil,
Congratulations, looks like you had a really nice first run on the salt.

Extrapolating from your 5633rpm/150 mph calculation to 157.5 mph would give 5914 rpm or, a 23% error.  This couldn?t be accounted for by tire growth alone. Time to count engine turns vs. wheel turns to verify 5th gear ratio.  Also, is the tach calibrated?  Or, maybe you have invented negative wheel slip!

Quote
The car felt stable but wandered a bit at high speed

Some things come to mind on this. As you mention, front toe setting, but also..
Rear toe?  Front and rear bump steer?  What is F/R weight distribution and has the CG/CP issue been satisfactorily evaluated?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Koncretekid on September 14, 2021, 10:10:23 AM
Congrats on your successful run. I wandered around your car as we too waited out the wind delay, but never saw anyone around the car.  Disappointed that I didn't get to meet you.

Tom
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: jacksoni on September 14, 2021, 10:12:07 AM
 IO your post was somewhat confusing that suggested 150 to 157 took 23% difference. Actually you were calculating from Neil's posted 4800 to get the 157 number which would be as you suggest and not within tire growth area. 150 to 157 is ~5% and within tire growth area. As you suggest there is a gear/tire miscalculation somewhere.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on September 14, 2021, 10:27:01 AM
Congratulations Neil... nice first pass....
All cars wander a little on the salt... the trick is to let them wander a little, not fight them too much...
Lots of chassis things you could check... any bump steer, front or rear is bad... I don't remember seeing if you had it on scales to check wheel weights...
My calculator is generally accurate... post up what you think you have and we can run the numbers... to get a good diameter don't trust posted size... run a circumference tape... doesn't take much to pick up some speed...
It's been a long journey to here, now the real  fun begins... it's harvest time....   :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on September 14, 2021, 10:48:47 AM
About the car hunting some:  Sounds like what I describe as "I had to do a lot of steering to go straight".  So much fun!

And now comes the chain-yanking:  From what I heard in the video, you might have attended the "Al Teague/Carl Heap School of Gear Shifting" - although you did explain later on...

But dang, that must have been fun.  I enjoyed just watching.  Thanks and best wishes for next time, too. :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on September 14, 2021, 12:31:47 PM
Thanks for the kind words, guys. I still have a smile on my face this morning. I'll unload my truck and roll the car off the trailer later today. We drove straight home to Tucson on Sunday and I was too tired to tackle that yesterday.

My F & R suspension geometry is very good, with very little bump steer but I have not adjusted its weight balance yet. The feeling in the car at speed was like driving on the freeway in a moderate crosswind- not alarming but I could feel the car move a bit and I gave the steering very little correction. I'd like to run it on asphalt to see if it feels the same or if it is something peculiar to driving on salt.

The first thing I'll do to check my speed vs RPM spreadsheet calculation is to double-check the equation and then check the data inputs. If those look OK, I'll measure tire circumference and actual gear ratios. I did calibrate my tach with a function generator and frequency counter- it is accurate. I short-shifted to 5th because the engine had more than enough power to get up to 150.

Next year can't come soon enough!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: JimL on September 14, 2021, 12:59:45 PM
Neil, many years ago, I visited Dennis Aase (and his brother) to talk about his Toyota MR2 record of over 200 mph.

He said that running a short wheelbase, rear engine car was "just like putting the front bumper against a telephone pole, and then trying to stay behind the pole at full throttle...in high gear...on ice."

He did show me a lot of ballast in the front end, added after his first trial runs.

It was good to see your first runs were successful.  These salt flats projects are the longest of our lives, and most folks don't understand.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 03, 2021, 08:35:43 PM
Jim, I added the tail fins and the largest legal rear spoiler that I could so I think I had some significant downforce working to keep me going in a straight line.

We returned home from Bonneville, cleaned up the car a bit and yesterday took it to a small local car show. Now we are back home; time to unload it once more from my trailer and roll it into the shop.
 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2021, 02:57:27 PM

The Pot-O'-Gold at the end of the rainbow.......
 
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stainless1 on October 05, 2021, 03:07:16 PM
Neil, I think that might be the reverse.... it's the self-emptying pot you've filled with gold and need to keep doing so to feed your addiction....  :laugh:
Nice pic  :cheers:
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on October 05, 2021, 04:39:12 PM
Somebody fill me in -- I'm not authorized to have a Rule Book any more.  The SCTA website doesn't have the records (at least where I can access them).  So, what the current B/GMS record?
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2021, 05:25:52 PM
Neil, I think that might be the reverse.... it's the self-emptying pot you've filled with gold and need to keep doing so to feed your addiction....  :laugh:
Nice pic  :cheers:

It's the pot I've been pouring my gold into for years, Bob.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Elmo Rodge on October 05, 2021, 05:36:56 PM
252.955 Stan.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 06, 2022, 08:20:52 PM
Hmmm... I just re-watched the video of my leaving the line at WoS 2021 and realized that from the two black tire marks on the salt, I have a limited slip differential in my Porsche G50/01 transaxle. I thought I might have one but I forgot all about that until now. Duhhh....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW1PV_TcSxM
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on April 07, 2022, 09:48:21 AM
 lol8 lol8 lol8
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on April 07, 2022, 11:44:25 AM
Neil --

What's the rear end ratio?  Sure you didn't swap the change gears?  Looks like it's pretty low geared.

(I guess I'm thinking like El Mirage where you have to attack every foot you get before the lights.)

Stan
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on April 07, 2022, 05:38:34 PM
Neil --

What's the rear end ratio?  Sure you didn't swap the change gears?  Looks like it's pretty low geared.

(I guess I'm thinking like El Mirage where you have to attack every foot you get before the lights.)

Stan
Stan, here are my Porsche G50/01 transaxle gear ratios:

1st gear 3.500
2nd gear 2.059
3rd gear 1.409
4th gear 1.13
5th gear 0.89
Final drive 3.44

Since I had rebuilt my engine and had not run it much before this, I just entered it in the "150 Club". To keep it below 160 and disqualification, I was taking it very easy. I got a timing slip for 157.458 mph so I thought I'd better quit before I "broke out". It is geared for 209 @ 7200 RPM.
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: Stan Back on April 07, 2022, 05:51:03 PM
Now I see why that 1st gear was so short!

Thanx!
Title: Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
Post by: manta22 on November 26, 2023, 12:23:56 PM
The last TWO YEARS Bonneville has been rained out and I'm getting anxious. Here is what it is all about-