Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Ratliff on June 01, 2008, 02:31:29 PM
-
Athol Graham's crash may have been caused by his cast magnesium rear wheels disintegrating rather than anything having to do with the construction of the car or the way in which it was driven.
An article on Graham in Bonneville Racing News contained an account of how a metalurgist present at Bonneville examined fragments of Graham's rear wheels and concluded they had been improperly cast. A photo taken of the wreckage plainly shows the condition of the rear wheels.
Several years before Graham's crash, Fred Carillo had almost gotten killed at Bonneville when the cast magnesium wheels on his streamliner disintegrated.
-
Athol's car as it was in 1959 when he clocked 344 mph at Bonneville.
-
Firsthand eyewitness account of Graham's last run by Griff Borgeson. Graham was under acceleration for about 47 seconds.
-
Franklin, I asked you to not post any more text -- and you have gone ahead and done so anyway. Since you started the topic you can't claim to have put this recent page up to help respond to a query by someone. Worse still, the text is difficult to expand enough to read, so my site is potentially exposed to legal action (fair use clause notwithstanding) and simultaneously perhaps wasting the time of those that might want to read the page -- and not be able to do so.
Please -- find someplace else to post text. If you're waiting for me to designate a history section -- keep waiting, don't post your stuff anyway while you wait. And even once there is such a section -- I still don't want full pages on this site -- perhaps a line or two, excerpted as would be done in a critical review.
This is once.
-
Franklin, I asked you to not post any more text -- and you have gone ahead and done so anyway. Since you started the topic you can't claim to have put this recent page up to help respond to a query by someone. Worse still, the text is difficult to expand enough to read, so my site is potentially exposed to legal action (fair use clause notwithstanding) and simultaneously perhaps wasting the time of those that might want to read the page -- and not be able to do so.
Please -- find someplace else to post text. If you're waiting for me to designate a history section -- keep waiting, don't post your stuff anyway while you wait. And even once there is such a section -- I still don't want full pages on this site -- perhaps a line or two, excerpted as would be done in a critical review.
This is once.
I don't know what kind of legal advice you've been getting, but posting a 48 year old article written by a deceased writer and published in a defunct magazine exposes you to no legal action whatsoever. I would be much more concerned about comments made involving living people about current events.
-
Franklin, just what part of "I asked you not to post any more text" don't you understand? I don't need to decide if there might be legal implications -- I just need to remind you that I asked you not to post any more text. End of subject, okay? No more text, and please, no more whining.
I guess I'll count this one -- so -- That's twice.
-
Ya know Slim,
In the mid 1970's the catholic schools in the Detroit area - in an attempt to speed up highschool baseball - went to a 3 balls 2 strike rule. You struck out with 2 strikes! makes one wonder if you ought to impose Catholic Highschool rules in this situation!
Just me wondering - thats all!
Carl Johansson
-
What would life be without some great mystery in it, Carl? I guess you'll have to wait and see what perspires.
No, that's not the word, unh, mmm, wait and see what defrabulates. Yeah, that's it.
-
I am just glad the site is back up. Hate to see anymore down time because of one or a few folks who won't or can't follow the moderators "suggestions" or even the sites "rules"
Keep up the good work SSS
We appreciate what you did, do and have to go through to keep the site up and running.
Charles
-
Quotes by Robert Heinlein:
"A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill."
"I never learned from a man who agreed with me."
"Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it."
"Never worry about theory as long as the machinery does what it's supposed to do."
"Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen."
"Logic is a feeble reed, friend. "Logic" proved that airplanes can't fly and that H-bombs won't work and that stones don't fall out of the sky. Logic is a way of saying that anything which didn't happen yesterday won't happen tomorrow."
"There is no way that writers can be tamed and rendered civilized or even cured. the only solution known to science is to provide the patient with an isolation room, where he can endure the acute stages in private and where food can be poked in to him with a stick."
"You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once."
"A generation which ignores history has no past — and no future."
-
Franklin -- I see you've chosen to quote Robert Heinlein, my favorite science fiction author. I've read all of his stuff -- including the book of quotes from which you've lifted the above stuff.
My response is that 1: Heinlein was a fiction writer; and 2: He's dead.
Advantage Me.
-
Franklin -- I see you've chosen to quote Robert Heinlein, my favorite science fiction author. I've read all of his stuff -- including the book of quotes from which you've lifted the above stuff.
My response is that 1: Heinlein was a fiction writer; and 2: He's dead.
Advantage Me.
Heinlein contributed the word "Waldo" to the English language, a word still commonly used today to describe devices for remotely manipulation of hazardous materials such as radioisotopes.
The quotes came from Wikiquotes.
-
Slim, I thought I mentioned it wasn't fair to match wits with a guy who is only half equipped to do so.... :roll:
Softball allows 4 fouls... or 2 fouls and a final strike.... :-o
-
The word "waldo" comes from the name of a character in Heinlein's anthology "Waldo and Magic, Inc." Waldo was the name of a person that suffered from myasthenia gravis, lived in (what we'd today call a space station), and invented the devices (which, I believe, were more officially called reduplicating pantographs) so that he could do things that "normal" folks can do with arms and hands.
As for from whence the quotes originated -- I stick with my story. Wikipedia may have found them at the same source -- at least I read them in the original.
Keep toying with me -- and say your goodbyes to the forum while you're at it, okay?
-
" People who think they know evreything are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
ISAAC ASIMOV
Triple S, methinks it's time to pull the plug!
-
My favorite Heinlein quote: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."
Mike
-
And the ever- popular quote "He who...who hee?"
--Alfred E. Newman
-
I would be much more concerned about comments made involving living people about current events.
All well and good, Franklin - but your "book learning" is getting in the way of your total lack of experience in the subject you propose to educate us about.
Just post a link if you can, and that will suffice. OK?
-
I would be much more concerned about comments made involving living people about current events.
All well and good, Franklin - but your "book learning" is getting in the way of your total lack of experience in the subject you propose to educate us about.
Just post a link if you can, and that will suffice. OK?
It is perhaps appropriate that we're discussing this in a thread about a man who, having never before built a racecar in his life, became only the second American (and only the fifth driver ever) to go 300 mph.
In October of 1990 I watched Al Teague clock 391 mph through the mile. I can remember when the idea of a single engine rear wheel drive car breaking the Summers brothers record seemed on the same level as breaking the sound barrier. At that same meet, I saw technically ambitious and highly experimental cars, such as the Bruce Crower streamliner and the Herbert-Steen car, built for the wheel-driven record.
I am one of the few people to have in person observed attempts on both the World Land Speed Record and the World Water Speed Record. For many years, I was the last person in the 20th century to have seen attempts on both the WLSR and WWSR.
On the human side, I saw racers who attained the opportunity to make these attempts because they thought bigger than the vast majority of racers, were more innovative, and not intimidated by totally new or seemingly insurmountable problems.
From the watching the WSR project, I learned it is possible to build a foamcore Kevlar/fiberglass sandwich composite cockpit structure that is virtually indestructible. To this day, it mystifies me how 18 years later this technology remains unused and misunderstood in land speed racing.
In the LSR attempt, I watched Art Arfons go 338 mph through the mile using a push/pull lever steering system and 17 inch diameter rear wheels. That was only the second pass Arfons had made with the car. The previous day, having been asked to keep it below 200 mph, Arfons clocked 175 mph and encountered a severe speed wobble. The team thought about it overnight and pumped up the pressure in the front struts for the next run.
I've also seen in action and photographed all the rocket dragsters to set FIA standing start records at Bonneville and El Mirage.
-
That's observing, not participating - everything you post is history and theory.
Build a car according to the rules, and drive it on the salt in an attempt on a record..... do this, Franklin, and earn respect from those involved in the sport you love so much.
-
I agree with Aircap Franklin but at the same time I realize that building a project may not fit in your budget. The other option to gain credibility is to become a legitimate valued member of someone else's team.
When I was in my teens, way too many years ago, I was a bit of an "expert" in my own mind especially because I was already fabricating parts for others and setting up and tuning a variety of high performance and race cars. At one point when I was expounding on something someone a few years my senior came up to me and quietly explained to me that I'd be much better off if I learned to shut my mouth and open my ears. That was some of the best advise I ever got and it's got me a lot further than I would have being an "expert" all the time.
If you find a crew position with someone remember that advise. The time will come when your knowledge can contribute to the effort but continued "expert" unsolicited advise will only result in a very short term as a member of the team and your reputation will quickly reach other teams limiting your chances of getting on elsewhere. Remember the way expert breaks down:
"ex" is a has been
s"pert" is a drip under pressure
Why not go out and gain some real credibility?
Pete
-
I think I figured it out!
First the answer is posted, then we are suppost to post the question.
Just like jeoperdy.
Do I win anything?
-
I agree with Aircap Franklin but at the same time I realize that building a project may not fit in your budget. The other option to gain credibility is to become a legitimate valued member of someone else's team.
When I was in my teens, way too many years ago, I was a bit of an "expert" in my own mind especially because I was already fabricating parts for others and setting up and tuning a variety of high performance and race cars. At one point when I was expounding on something someone a few years my senior came up to me and quietly explained to me that I'd be much better off if I learned to shut my mouth and open my ears. That was some of the best advise I ever got and it's got me a lot further than I would have being an "expert" all the time.
If you find a crew position with someone remember that advise. The time will come when your knowledge can contribute to the effort but continued "expert" unsolicited advise will only result in a very short term as a member of the team and your reputation will quickly reach other teams limiting your chances of getting on elsewhere. Remember the way expert breaks down:
"ex" is a has been
s"pert" is a drip under pressure
Why not go out and gain some real credibility?
Pete
I'm not an engine expert. Have never ever discussed how to tune an engine for Bonneville.
Going faster than everyone else and setting a ton of records still doesn't get through to many racers.
There are a lot of expert engine tuners running at Bonneville who don't have even a rudimentary knowledge of aerodynamics fundamentals.
That's why you still see dragster style lakesters running at Bonneville and El Mirage that instead of learning from the example of the Nick Arias or Joe Law "Grumpy Old Men" cars still look like they came straight off a dragstrip.
Attached is an artist rendering based on drawings I made in September 1983 for a potential supersonic jet car concept. Looks like I was on the right track.
-
Ratliff:
I'm going to try this one more time.
I don't pretend to be an engine expert either. The only time I touch any engine adjustments is at the track. I leave engines up to an engine builder who knows a lot more than I about horsepower and how to make it. I build cars and parts and do chassis engineering. Most of us who have worked on cars that go over the 150 mph mark on a regular basis (my background is road race and Indy cars) have a more than casual relationship with aero and the effects it can have on a vehicle.
Look at the last statement in your last post about dragster style lakesters. Maybe you can be of help to one of them to get them headed in what you feel is the right direction, but I can assure you that unless you use a little more tact in your approach than you use on this website you won't last 15 minutes. Applying the principles you feel you know is the way you'll gain credibility with the rest of us.
Please go back and read the advise, then follow it. It will make the lives of you and everyone else you interact with a little easier.
END OF FINAL RANT ON THIS TOPIC!
Pete
-
Ditto!!!
-
Ratliff:
I'm going to try this one more time.
I don't pretend to be an engine expert either. The only time I touch any engine adjustments is at the track. I leave engines up to an engine builder who knows a lot more than I about horsepower and how to make it. I build cars and parts and do chassis engineering. Most of us who have worked on cars that go over the 150 mph mark on a regular basis (my background is road race and Indy cars) have a more than casual relationship with aero and the effects it can have on a vehicle.
Look at the last statement in your last post about dragster style lakesters. Maybe you can be of help to one of them to get them headed in what you feel is the right direction, but I can assure you that unless you use a little more tact in your approach than you use on this website you won't last 15 minutes. Applying the principles you feel you know is the way you'll gain credibility with the rest of us.
Please go back and read the advise, then follow it. It will make the lives of you and everyone else you interact with a little easier.
END OF FINAL RANT ON THIS TOPIC!
Pete
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,3994.0.html
Something you have to keep in mind about land speed racing is that, with the changes in rules structure from 30 years ago, many racers are running the only car or bike in their class. Since there is much less real competition, there is also much less incentive to innovate.
-
I am one of the few people to have in person observed attempts on both the World Land Speed Record and the World Water Speed Record. For many years, I was the last person in the 20th century to have seen attempts on both the WLSR and WWSR.
[/quote]
How people can be wrong........
-
I am one of the few people to have in person observed attempts on both the World Land Speed Record and the World Water Speed Record. For many years, I was the last person in the 20th century to have seen attempts on both the WLSR and WWSR.
How people can be wrong........
Yep PorkPie, often self-absorbed people feel they are important and become legends in their own mind... :| while living vicariously through the actions of others.
-
I am one of the few people to have in person observed attempts on both the World Land Speed Record and the World Water Speed Record. For many years, I was the last person in the 20th century to have seen attempts on both the WLSR and WWSR.
How people can be wrong........
[/quote]
I have been told writer Bill Neely, having been been present at the Craig Arfons attempt on the WWSR, later was present at Breedlove's attempt on the WLSR. That would make Neely the last person to date to have personally witnessed attempts on the world speed record for each medium.
-
where you was in 1978, 1982, 1997, 2001...........??????
-
where you was in 1978, 1982, 1997, 2001...........??????
I saw Craig Arfons attempt on the World Water Speed Record in 1989 and Art Arfons attempt on the World Land Speed Record in 1990. There have been no attempts on the WWSR since Arfons.
Nobody from Noble's Thrust 2 team saw Warby's 1978 attempt. Nobody from Warby's team saw Noble's 1981/82/83 attempts, although Warby was in the states at the time running a pair of J-85 jet Funny Cars built by Craig Arfons.
Gary Gabelich saw Lee Taylor's 1980 attempt on the WWSR and Noble's 1983 (maybe 1982) attempt on the WLSR. Below is a link to articles on Taylor's 1980 project.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19568&highlight=lee+taylor
-
I was in 1978 on the Blowering Dam,
1982 at first at Bonneville - than Black Rock
1996/97 at first at Bonneville - than Black Rock
2001 at Bonneville......if you accept wheel driven records.......
I could make this list a little bit longer.....but for what......Stainless wrote it before.....
-
I was in 1978 on the Blowering Dam,
1982 at first at Bonneville - than Black Rock
1996/97 at first at Bonneville - than Black Rock
2001 at Bonneville......if you accept wheel driven records.......
I could make this list a little bit longer.....but for what......Stainless wrote it before.....
Last does not mean only. It simply refers to chronological order. 1989 and 1990 are in chronological order after 1978 and 1982 and before 1996.
-
And what, may I ask, does who was where when have to do with the topic of this thread? Gentlemen, let's try to stay on the topic. The topic was not a request for information, for that matter, but rather a statement from the history books and therefore not really in keeping with the idea of landracing.com providing a place for the lively interchange of ideas and the offering up of relevant information needed to further the build of race vehicles. Sure, some off-topic stuff is inevitable -- but when it's this far from the topic -- I say it's time to find something else to do with this forum.
Regards,
-
And what, may I ask, does who was where when have to do with the topic of this thread? Gentlemen, let's try to stay on the topic. The topic was not a request for information, for that matter, but rather a statement from the history books and therefore not really in keeping with the idea of landracing.com providing a place for the lively interchange of ideas and the offering up of relevant information needed to further the build of race vehicles. Sure, some off-topic stuff is inevitable -- but when it's this far from the topic -- I say it's time to find something else to do with this forum.
Regards,
To get this thread back on topic, the fact we're able to have an informed discussion about the possible causes of Graham's crash is due in part to a photographer being able to shoot the wreckage of Graham's car without interference. People can see for themselves what we're talking about and form their own opinion, even though there are still those who think a veil of secrecy should be imposed on any fatal accident.
Below is a link to a photo of Arfons slowing down after a run with his Green Monster a.k.a. "Anteater" Allison V-12 streamliner. The fact Arfons (in 1961) was able to make a successful run of 313 mph sitting even farther forward than Graham to me lends further credence to the theory Graham's crash was due to the disintegration of his rear wheels (although Arfons could drive anything).
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art55.htm
-
Name: Ratliff
Posts: 269 (12.227 per day)
-
Here is part of a video that the BBC did on Bonneville. In this clip it shows Athol Graham and his car.
Tom G.
land speed in the 60's seen thru the eyes of the BBC...
In Search Of Speed - The Battle Of Bonneville 2/6 09:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Job736g6OW0&feature=related
-
Hey Tom, great video. Watched them all. Even saw a little Red, White and Blue lakester run by in video 1. Thanks for the link.
-
My friend said that the spirit of salt lake was on display at the American Le Mans race at Miller motorsports park last month. Good to know Graham's family still cares enough about history to display the car........
-
Here is part of a video that the BBC did on Bonneville. In this clip it shows Athol Graham and his car.
Tom G.
land speed in the 60's seen thru the eyes of the BBC...
In Search Of Speed - The Battle Of Bonneville 2/6 09:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Job736g6OW0&feature=related
The very first car you see in that video, the #555 streamliner, was Mickey Thompson's twin-engine dragster that became the prototype to Challenger I.
I did the design calculations on Art Arfons centrifuge. Arfons had a 2g car, so I sized the centrifuge to generate 3g, using a 30 foot arm turning 15 rpm.
-
Hey Tom, great video. Watched them all. Even saw a little Red, White and Blue lakester run by in video 1. Thanks for the link.
Stainless,
You are welcome. I knew you would like that first video. LOL.
Tom G.
-
I did the design calculations on Art Arfons centrifuge. Arfons had a 2g car, so I sized the centrifuge to generate 3g, using a 30 foot arm turning 15 rpm.
So YOU designed Art's centrifuge...
You're far more experienced than I thought and older too! :-o
Go work for a race team and get some experience to go with all of that literature. The only issue is that you may have to be a little more humble when it's someone else's car and life on the line.
Many of the rest of us have bet our lives (literally) on our work. Does that make us better than those that haven't?
Yes, it darn well does.
-
I did the design calculations on Art Arfons centrifuge. Arfons had a 2g car, so I sized the centrifuge to generate 3g, using a 30 foot arm turning 15 rpm.
So YOU designed Art's centrifuge...
You're far more experienced than I thought and older too! :-o
Go work for a race team and get some experience to go with all of that literature. The only issue is that you may have to be a little more humble when it's someone else's car and life on the line.
Many of the rest of us have bet our lives (literally) on our work. Does that make us better than those that haven't?
Yes, it darn well does.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4008.15.html
(Eric) "The 21% empty weight fraction and the attending ~10% structural fraction for a 1500 to 2000 psf vehicle are more than a factor of 2 away from being rational.
This is a difficulty that I have run into with a lot of the people "designing" ALSR cars. Stresses are factors of 4 to 6 greater than any wheel driven car, 10X for Mach 2. Think about that factor of 10 very carefully. The design database of supersonic-at-sea-level capable aircraft and missiles provides plenty of structural weight and design guidance that simply cannot be ignored.
If anyone wants to pencil out something like this, a 1000 mph FIA record requires a 35 to 40% structural mass fraction with advanced materials, straight load paths, and good structural design. Poor design or heavy materials can raise this to 60 to 75%. Note that the "structural" mass fraction does not include the engine.
For reference, the structural fraction of our current project is nearly 60% due to the use of mild steel and a far-from-optimum structural layout. Thrust SSC was about 50%. 10% is irrational."
(Franklin) "The recoverable reuseable solid rocket boosters on the shuttle each weigh about 100,000 lbs empty and 1,000,000 lbs loaded. That's nine times the structure weight in propellant. The steam rocket car would only need to hold about three times the structure weight in propellant.
With a weight of about 7.5 lbs per square foot for 3/16" steel sheet, a tank 25 feet long and 2 feet in diameter would have about 1,180.125 lbs of steel in its skin. Don't know what the weight from the end caps would be. So with the configuration of three 25 foot long 2 foot diameter tanks I described earlier, the steam rocket car using steel tanks would have about 3,540.375 lbs of steel in the tank skins (about the same weight as a J-79 engine). Using titanium instead of steel for the tanks would cut the tank weight in half. If titanium instead of steel were used for the tanks, the 4,000 lbs empty weight used in Craig Farnsworth's performance calculations would be attainable and very realistic."
-
FR I hate to ask, was there a point to quoting yourself from another thread or you just still working on post count.... :?
(this gives you the chance for another count you know... :roll: )
-
FR I hate to ask, was there a point to quoting yourself from another thread or you just still working on post count.... :?
(this gives you the chance for another count you know... :roll: )
There were two quotes, not one. The first one was from Eric. The second one was my response to Eric.
The point was if someone who has yet to even roll their jet car under its own power is going to lecture me on what I do or do not know, or on what can and cannot be done, they should at least do the math to see what would be required to make something work.
-
Good to see you are smart enough to figure the calculations involved in the apples and oranges comparison, too bad, as usual, you missed the point... :evil:
But none of this is on topic
-
dang, that website Franklin posted has some awesome pictures adn reading!!! there goes another two hours of my day!! I love this stuff.
To the rest of you, I'd caution that you need to re-read Slim's warning about getting off Franklin's back. Seriously. What do you care WHAT he posts? It's interesting that some of you just can't find it in yourselves to simply SHUT UP if you don't like what he posts.
-
I was just hoping he'd run out pretty soon. Maybe he has -- now resorting to repeating himself.
-
In 1959, Graham clocked 344 mph using direct drive with a truck torque converter.
It seems like every year at Speedweek someone running a high horsepower car gets brought down by a blown clutch or broken transmission.
Hmmm.
-
Athol Graham was my dad, I don't think his crash was his fault either. I lost my dad that day and if there is anyone out there with film of his race and crash and/or pictures please contact me at loiecats@hotmail.com. Thankyou
-
Seems the recent responses on this thread got away from the topic. Just conducting a quick search for the date my uncle died and came across this forum. Those who raised this issue should know that many factors contributed to the crash. But the most serious of them was that the tire manufacturer sent the wrong size tires on one or more of the wheels. Athol weighed the cost of canceling the race vs taking the risk. That decided his fate. We loved him for trying to bring the land speed record home to Utah.
-
I have'nt reviewed all the posts to this topic,, but ,, has there been any more progress in restoring the car, ? I guess you know that John Price is putting together a museum of speed, in SLC , he has gathered some impressive machinery, is there a possibility of getting the Graham car included ?
-
/Users/cynthiagilbert/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Modified/2013/Oct 27, 2013_2/athol graham crash.jpg
My father was at the crash in the pit....I have more pics and will post them later if anyone is interested. I also have my father's point of view as far as the crash goes... He was there.
-
I would love to see them but why don't you clear them with "mydaddy"
-
and clear it with Ratliff :-D
-
Ssir you are misinformed---that is SIR Propster to you :-D