Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: SPARKY on March 20, 2008, 10:46:40 PM
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GH, How many injectors are you planning on using on your "JIMMY"?
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Sparky,
I assume you are referring to a 6 cyl application, as I found this post
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,3528.0.html
GH, also curious what type of EFI unit will be controlling this... I happen to have a Great EFI system for sale that can control that can control 12 injectors plus a fair amount of data logging.
Jon
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Sparky,
I assume you are referring to a 6 cyl application, as I found this post
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,3528.0.html
GH, also curious what type of EFI unit will be controlling this... I happen to have a Great EFI system for sale that can control that can control 12 injectors plus a fair amount of data logging.
Jon
I'm about sure it will be MegaSquirt as that is what he is using on the Stude now and what he told me he was going to use, but he'll probably come on here sooner or later :-)
Jon do you have yours listed in the 4-sale area?? I think our web master has an area like that 8-) .
c ya,
Sum
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Sparky, Jon and Sumner, as Sumner said, I will use MegaSquirt, 2 injectors per intake port, 6 injectors total. Not sure on the size of injectors just yet. We are installing MegaSquirt on the #1950 green Buick for datalogging only as we speak.
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The most recent picture from Gary.................
............. and the man himself a couple years ago.
What is he driving (the car with the trunk open)??
c ya,
Sum
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Where are they being placed?
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Thanks - I take it that's as close to the port as you can get them?
Not to un-ravel your work so far, but even though the port ID may not stand a big change, there's some argument in this case to use a port face contour scalloped away for injector body insertion like Honda, etc. here's one borrowed from Larry Widmer's site http://www.theoldone.com/ (http://www.theoldone.com/):
(http://www.theoldone.com/components/cylinderheads/Honda/B_Series/IntakeFlange.jpg)
This has several positive effects:
1. doesn't obstruct the area of the manifold or port as much since most of the injector is in the inletted section
2. may allow more choice of angle of attack of the injector discharge (more parallel to port align), since the body need not intrude as much
3. less induced bias or swirl due to flow striking exposed injector parts
4. probably not useful here due to turbo, but allows the injector to be closer to the valve - which means less atomization, between the injection point and the valve seat (any vaporized fuel displaces much more air in the charge than droplets). This is useful when the port efficiency isn't high.
Good info. I've been reading more and more where some of the cars (I think like IRL, Formula 1??) are moving the injectors or maybe just a second set, can't remember, further up the runners. In fact quite a long ways up the runners to try and help atomization. I don't know if it has to do with the very high rpm's they are running and the velocity of the air charge vs. time to get the fuel atomized with the air so that you have a fully atomized charge in the combustion chamber or what. I'll see if I can find one of the mentions of it.
c ya,
Sum
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Like Panic mentioned Larry Widmer knows his stuff. I remember him working on the Boss 429 program for Bob Glidden and he was able to make monster Hp with that head. My set up is very similar to this for my GMC. Actually took some of the ideas from my IRL motors. When I am finished with it I will post some pictures.
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Sumner, the black car with the deck lid open is a 1958 Chevrolet delray 2 door sedan, 283 V-8, lowered with a tube grill, had that car when we got married in 1962. We were on our way to Mo-Kan dragway in Joplin MIssouri to race my Henry-J with an Olds 303 engine. That was the first race Sandy had been to.
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OK I will show my ignorance---what is a stipple---I take it to not be a stiff _ _ _ _ _ _.
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Quoted.. :?
This has several positive effects:
1. doesn't obstruct the area of the manifold or port as much since most of the injector is in the inletted section
2. may allow more choice of angle of attack of the injector discharge (more parallel to port align), since the body need not intrude as much
3. less induced bias or swirl due to flow striking exposed injector parts
4. probably not useful here due to turbo, but allows the injector to be closer to the valve - which means less atomization, between the injection point and the valve seat (any vaporized fuel displaces much more air in the charge than droplets). This is useful when the port efficiency isn't high.
End Quote...
In all due respect for someone elses opinion..
It works a lot more like this in real life or at least every efi engine I have tuned in the last 20 years...
If someone has dyno shets to prove otherwise I would love to see them.
1. A properly installed injector does not protrude into the port..
2. At WOT it does not really matter where you aim them Buick indy lights had them aiming away from the valve.. They ran just fine. Kinsler has a lot of them 90 degrees to the port they run just fine.. A lot of passenger cars aim them almost paralell to the port they run just fine... If the port is so lazy that it can not move one thirteenth of it's weight around you have a serious problem other than injector placement or angle. Do not lose track that it is air/fuel ratio by weight not volume...
3. See #1...
4. What????? A pound of fuel contains x atoms period... The heat of vaporization will cause cooling of the intake charge that will make more room available.... You do not want liquid fuel in any manifold if possible... As a side note any well developed racing engine has the injectors as far away as possible from the valve. They are put closer in passenger cars because they run closed loop. The added distance of moving the injector adds a delay and the loop is harder to keep closed and not hunt all over the place..
Dave
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I always find these exchanges so useful.
My comment: theoretical, mathematical, lernt from books
Your rebuttal: "real life"
Let's just agree that whatever I say will be wrong?
Much better, and wastes less of my time.
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I always find these exchanges so useful.
My comment: theoretical, mathematical, lernt from books
Your rebuttal: "real life"
Let's just agree that whatever I say will be wrong?
Much better, and wastes less of my time.
relax, panic. no need to get bent because someone doesn't share your opinion on proper injector setup. And it is OPINION unless either of you have built the exact same motor before, right?
Honestly, this (as usual) engine will make more than enough power for GH's goals even before we get into the .1% improvements in the subtle details. But I do find both you and Dave's input very interesting!
-scott
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Panic in all due repect again.. I can not let this dog lie about and do nothing..
Physics is a very demanding place and has little room for opinion that is not based on facts.
If I personally offended you or you have that impression it is not my intent.
I have no need want or inclination to offend you or anyone else.
If you have some physics to support your viewpoint I would love to hear of them and learn if you want the physics behind mine I am more that glad to into it in great detail. This is a forum to learn and not throw stones in all directions if you are not universally believed more of a show me place. So I am asking for the show me with the liquid fuel analogy to start though please do not start with 'someone said' and call it a fact...
Dave
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Having observed Mr Dahlgren's posts- and knowing of him only by them I'll venture that he has no malice towards anyone and wishes only to INFORM, which he does very intelligently from yrs truly's viewpoint.
Engine theory is full of old wives tales at the level that we participants are on and a solid backgroung starting with Ricardo and going thru the two MIT professorial texts on to the latest F1 tech would probably bore most of us to death.
A lot of fit and try, I must admit, worked and the physics were figured out after the fact. Still.
Well, back to the garage, getting ready to install the Fish carburetor on the roadster.
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Geek and dave you both have great points. I have tried different locations for injectors in a Carbed intake we converted to EFI. In theory and reality we have tried everything from smooth port, roughed up port and injector location. The further away the injector is from the head the more injector delay had to be dialed in. Didn't make an appreciable difference in how far the injector was away from the head for making horsepower. If we didn't need individual cylinder control we would have put a carb on it! With varying runner runner lengths and different primary lengths and cylinders heads not cooling each cylinder the same, Individual cylinder control stops knocking sound. I have no diesel expertice but direct injection is supposedly where it's at. Sorry I got off subject.
SteveD
Houston
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Mike C. and myself have just completed installing MegaSquirt on the green Buick #1950. We are using it for datalogging purposes only, it will not control any engine functions just yet, maybe next winter we will turbo charge & efi it. We can datalog incoming air temps both before the 4-71 blower and after the blower. The MegaSquirt and related items came from DIYAutoTune.com, thanks Jerry. We also reworked the headers, they now exit through the fender with 3-1/2" collectors and electric cut-outs, sounds different than it did before, has a much deeper sound. We also changed the blower drive from a polyrib belt to a 2" Gilmer belt and increased the drive ratio to 25%, Mike is hoping for 150 MPH this year.
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Mike C. and myself have just completed installing MegaSquirt on the green Buick #1950. We are using it for datalogging purposes only, it will not control any engine functions just yet, maybe next winter we will turbo charge & efi it. We can datalog incoming air temps both before the 4-71 blower and after the blower. The MegaSquirt and related items came from DIYAutoTune.com, thanks Jerry. We also reworked the headers, they now exit through the fender with 3-1/2" collectors and electric cut-outs, sounds different than it did before, has a much deeper sound. We also changed the blower drive from a polyrib belt to a 2" Gilmer belt and increased the drive ratio to 25%, Mike is hoping for 150 MPH this year.
I guess after the GH "plugged in" photos I posted I ought to be a nice guy and post some of these photos also, Sum
The first is the motor and you can see where the exhaust/headers go over to the driver side front fender. The second is the cut-outs on the fender looking at them from the outside of the car.....
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Mike had a problem with one of the electric cut-outs. It was made out of aluminum and it came apart. He is not going to use them anymore.
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Mike had a problem with one of the electric cut-outs. It was made out of aluminum and it came apart. He is not going to use them anymore.
I think I warned you about our own luck with those things. Never can get them to last or work right.
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Trying to remember the brand...
I've got a few of the aluminum electric cutouts, and they worked poorly and fell apart. They close all by themselves sometimes, and the bodies fall apart. They look great though.
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McRat, that's exactly what happened to this one. I don't know the brand, Mike C. purchased them.
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They were DMH electric cutouts.
DMH said he hadn't had that issue except once before and was quick to say he'd replace it, but it hasn't arrived yet.
I'd be reluctant to use it in a critical location/situation again
Mike
ps Under low stress operational conditions they did look and work cool on the street
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Gary
Why don't you mount the blower on the other side and put an intercooler where the blower is now?
Or you could water inject the hell out of it.What kind of boost and temps are you getting?
Good luck JL222 :-)
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whats up with this Project? :?
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Sparky, this engine (GMC) will go into the next car after I sell the one I have now.