Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: willieworld on March 20, 2008, 08:16:55 PM
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I ran the bike the whole year without any problems. The motor is pretty much stock except some very minor head work. It has a horrible cd of .8 and the frontal area is 7.3 sq. ft. The engine makes 112 rear wheel hp. and my best run was 141 and some change. My intentions are to make the bike a little more aerodynamic. When I built the bike I made the frame too wide and my knees stick out in the wind. I'm going to cut the top of the frame out and redo it and I'm going to change all of the wheels and go from a 21" on the sidecar and the front of the bike to 17"s. I am going to switch from a wire wheel to a mag. My front wheel with the tire weighs 18 lbs. The new front wheel with the tire weighs 8 lbs. So I should be able to get rid of 30 lbs of rotating mass by changing out all the rims and tires.I should be able to get rid of enough frontal area to pick up my speed by 10 mph. I am going to build a new sidecar not for aero but because of the change in the wheel height. That's the plan.Here's a couple of pics of the bike stripped down and the top of the frame cut out.
Willie Buchta
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Willie, I don't know what your sidecar track is at the present time.....but since you are not using a passenger keep the track narrow.....less drag...
The rules are minimum of 32 inches measured from center of rear bike tire to center of sidecar tire.......I would try to get it close to 32 inches.....
Also on your 12x32 platform use expanded metal
...less air drag...and also less air-lift under the chair.........B.B.
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hey bob how you doing --im at 32 in already on the track and i paid big money for the polished diamond plate --if i can get my knees tucked in and change wheels i can get rid of 1.4 sq.ft of frontel area --i think im about at an end with this bike i mean i could spend money on the motor but i think the money would be better spent on a new bike i just need to find the time to build it-- im thinking of some streamlining this time take care and nice to hear from you willie buchta
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Just finished Sheri's bike got to get on mine. Supposed to have it to the paint guy Tuesday get it back Thursday and I'll have about 14 days to get it back together again. Put it back together wire it and plum it and we head out to El Mirage. Took a couple of pics.
Willie Buchta
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Well here it is May 1st. All the welding is done the frame modifications are made everything is sand blasted and going to the painter in the morning. The painter Albert Edwards from Sonora says that he will have the frame and the sidecar painted and back to me by Saturday night. So I can start putting the bike back together Sunday morning.Hopefully I'll have it back together and running before the first El Mirage meet May 17th. As soon as I start reassembly I will post the progress daily. Here are some pics that we took today.
Willie Buchta
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Willie,
I know it is expensive but have you thought of using aero tubing for your side car struts? Is it legal?? Also when you do the floor in the side car make it fit between the two lower round tubes that go to the outrigger wheel and trail some material off of the rear tube. What I am talking about is to make the floor from thin steel sheet and weld it to the vertical center line of these two tubes. This will make the a big difference in the drag coefficient for these tubes. With limited hps ever little bit on the aero side helps.
Rex
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rex yes until i priced it 14 dollars a foot --i know i could have made it more aero and i will later with some streamline covers that i will form myself --if i was smart i would have built a streamliner but then i would had to have 4000 dollars of safety equipment that i dont need on a motorcycle --i think i have 3200 dollars in my whole rig--i finished sheris bike and we kept track of every dollar --her bike is also on this site and we will post a list of all moneys spent may be later tonight thanks willie buchta yes its legal
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I got the frame back from the painter and worked on it today and this is how far I got. Got the motor mounted, the front end on, the sidecar wheelcover finished. Here are some pics.
Willie Buchta
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second day got the sidecar platform cover mounted. got the wheel cover mounted. got the frontend all cleaned up and spacers made for front axle and mounted speedometer drive. finished a frame I was building.
willie buchta
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day 3...Got the rest of the paint back around 10 this morning. Mounted the oil tank, rear fender, handlebars, ran all the oil lines and got a start on the wiring. Here's some pics.
Willie Buchta
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Day 4...
Finished up all the wiring, mounted chainguard, coil, carb and manifold. Here are some pics..
Willie Buchta
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a couple of more pics
Willie Buchta
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Day 5...
She's down on the ground almost done. I have to mount the gas tanks and the brake line. Bleed the brakes. I have to drill some holes and upholster the seat and hang the exhaust pipes and line up all the wheels. Then we will be ready to go racing. Here are some pics.
Willie Buchta
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a couple of more pics...
Willie Buchta
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Really nice looking. Can't wait to see the finished rebuild.
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Day 6..........
It's all done except for bleeding the brakes, rechecking nuts and bolts and fluids. Got to align the sidecar and finish putting on the numbers. We are ready to gooooooooo.
Will be at El Mirage for the first race on Thursday morn.
Hope to see ya all there.
Here's the pics
Willie Buchta
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a couple of more pics
Willie Buchta
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a couple more things of intrest --i replaced every nut bolt and washer on the bike --the bike was at bonneville 2 times in 07 and the salt took a toll --the worst damage was on the gold cad hardware next was the silver cad hardware all of the powder coating and chrome and even the polished aluminum held up the best --the paint held up good except where it got a chip --i had a hard time getting the nuts off the bolts if there were threads sticking out so this year i cut all of the bolts off flush with the nuts and covered the ends of the bolt and the nut with clear fingernail polish i think that will help next year in disassembly just some thoughts willie buchta
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Willie
That's why they call it Wendover Loc-Tite. One of the club members a few years ago waited to long after washing off his lakester and the front spindles were froze to the king pins and bosses. Clean up is the hardest part of running the salt. It has to be done as soon as you get home. :-o Tell Shari hello and have fun next week end at the lakes.
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Damn nice Willie!!! Good luck at Elmo!
Rex
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If you race on the salt......spray everyhing with
Kalgard 30/30.......works great........when you get home use Kalgard engine cleaner and Salt-X.....
Paint anything that is Cad plated with clear.......
Keeps the damage to a minumim...........................
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we are home--and i guess i should write a final chapter to this rebuild ---first though i want to say how great it was to see all our friends at el mirage and as always we made some new ones and we meet some of our landracing.com friends in person and to be honest most didnt look like the picture in my head and im sure i didnt either --anyway after doing a shakedown run on sat morning i ran a wfo pass in the afternoon and raised the 1000 cc sc-pg record from 124.942 to 132.280 and sheries 500 cc sc-pf after a couple of shakedown runs ran 106.173 on a 107 record we couldnt be happier --nice seeing you all hope to see you all next month willie buchta
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we are home--and i guess i should write a final chapter to this rebuild ---......... willie buchta
I would say this was just the next chapter. Good run Willie and good game plan,
Sum
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Hi Willie,
My name is Frank, I'm from France. We've been in contact at the end of 2007,
when you gently replied (and other racers too) to some questions I had posted regarding sidecar rules changes.
Those rules changes didn't see the light of day. :roll:
I've been planning to write you for a while, in order to congratulate you regarding your new sidecar building process and superb pics we've seen on your diary. We've been heavily busy with our own Speed Week sidecar entry, and I wasn't able to write you before now.
We are currently working on our SC-VG 50cc Motobecane entry, please visit our site at :-) www.lestriplettesdebonneville.com. :-)
You will see we've tried to keep as close to the "Vintage spirit" as possible, so we've extensively used period spare parts, wire wheels instead of alloy ones, ...
Our SC-VG race number is 499 (like 49,9 cc administrative class for French mopeds). We will also race under 4990 number in SC-VF, where my teammate Yann will drive the sidecar.
We've recently conducted some tests on a French airport, both in sidecar and motorcycle forms.
We plan to remove the sidecar outfit and race in motorcycle class with another "class change". You know what, the 3rd and 4th teammates Gilles and Jean don't want to leave Bonneville without racing...
When I look at your pics, your work is far less pro than our own one,
but I'm surprised to see how the 12X32 inches SCTA plate can give the a somewhere "similar" visual result,
attached both to a huge HD or a tiny Motobecane !!
We are really willing to put our feet and wheels on the Salt, and to meet all those racers and racing vehicules !!
Regards,
Frank.
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Frank, your sidecar looks great...............the 12x32
sidecar platform is also part of the rules for
the BUB AMA/FIM rules................as I have noted in the past the rule however, does not state that the platform has to be "solid"......we have used expanded metal.....cuts down air-drag...............
Good luck at Speedweek..........................................
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Bak,
Interested in the statement, "--- expanded metal---cuts down on air drag. I'm new to "aero" so lots of things don't make sense to me. How did you come to that conclusion? I'm sure I've made alot of mistakes on my lakester , especially "aero" because I haven't asked questions enough. This is flattened expanded metal, I presume?
Thanks for your input
Harvey
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frank very nice love the wheel covers the scta changed a couple of rules but nothing that will effect you ---i saw your entry for bonneville at www.scta-bni.org i will see you at bonneville willie buchta 9B
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Regarding, using flat expanded metal for the sidecar 12x32 platform...............we found in racing our smaller displacement (350c.c. and smaller)
sidecars at BNI (where no ballast is required)
the "solid" platform effected the handling by
"lifting" the sidecar..........using expanded metal corrected this problem...............on the larger displacement outfits there must be enough weight.........so the "normal" platform works just fine...................................................................................
P.S. On Johns awsome 216mph outfit the platform
is high off the ground this somewhat prevents the chair lifting.......plus he may be using some ballast in the chair......................................................
Or he may be "flying" the chair wheel.........only John knows for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Looking real good Willie, it'll be a shame to get it covered in salt :-(
Go Willie go.
Sam. :wink:
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two more races in the dirt before bonneville -- i dont think john or anyone else who runs a sidecar would fly the chair not a safe thing to do willie buchta
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Sorry Willie, in roadracing sidecars we "fly the wheel" all the time.......if done properly it is perfectly safe.......and in roadracing it is done with a passenger in the chair....................................................................
The sidecar record I set in 1991 at Bonneville....on running both way (in those days we ran up and back) I flew the chair wheel to the point that the wheel had stopped and when I set it back down it was a real thrill (no ballast required by SCTA/BNI...maybe this is why FIM/AMA has a ballast rule to keep it a real 3 wheel sidecar)
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I should point out that if you want to "fly the wheel" (and it is easy to do under SCTA/BNI no ballast rules) one has to build/set-up the sidecar outfit a certain way................................cheating..NO
just smarter....... then the other guys.........................
Having been in sidecar roadracing for 50 years
certainly has been very helpfull in the last 38 years in LSR..................................................................
Retired now..........the secrets are out......................
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bob maybe you are "smarter" than me but i cant for the life of me see any advantage in flying the sidecar --my sidecar has 1 sq. ft. frontel area if the wheel is on the ground or not --rolling restence not enough to bother --you could also drive your car on 2 wheels but to what advantage ---when you compare roadraceing sidecars to lsr sidecars you are compareing 2 different vehicles to 2 differant types of racing and i think a properly designed lsr sidecar will out run a roadraceing sidecar power being equel just my openion willie buchta
and dont forget the ballest (132 lbs) doesnt have to be carried on the sidecar
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Willie, you right that a LSR sidecar most if not all the time will out run a roadracing sidecar in top speed, in fact, this was proven last year at the BUB event, when we had 2 of the latest roadracing outfits run in RWYB. And you are also right regarding where the ballast for FIM/AMA can be mounted.......in fact the 132lbs. can be mounted in such a place to help
"fly the wheel" But you are wrong regarding the drag/rolling resistance of the sidecar wheel.
A sidecar has one corner steering....one corner driving.....one corner dragged along....and even if it feels like the outfit is going in a straight line
it is not.....for one thing we have
toe-in on the chair-wheel.....Drag!.....and the outfit
is always "driving" into the sidecar side of the outfit....something you noted a few months back.....keeping the chair wheel off the ground will make for a faster run,......but you got to know what you are doing.........this is why we have
3 times National Roadrace Champion Larry Coleman driving our outfits.
I alway like to quote my late friend Mike Burns
(himself a outstanding all around sidecar racer and LSR record holder) " A sidecar is inherently a unstable vehicle.....but it will stand up by itself"
RIP...Mike
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Regarding, using flat expanded metal for the sidecar 12x32 platform...............we found in racing our smaller displacement (350c.c. and smaller)
sidecars at BNI (where no ballast is required)
the "solid" platform effected the handling by
"lifting" the sidecar..........using expanded metal corrected this problem...............on the larger displacement outfits there must be enough weight.........so the "normal" platform works just fine...................................................................................
P.S. On Johns awsome 216mph outfit the platform
is high off the ground this somewhat prevents the chair lifting.......plus he may be using some ballast in the chair......................................................
Or he may be "flying" the chair wheel.........only John knows for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob,
I usually find your comments and knowledge enlightening however in a few of your posts regarding me you have stated I either "could be" or "maybe" flying the sidecar wheel on our bike.
When you have a platform such as mine that is very stable you have no advantage to "flying the wheel" as at the speeds we are running and also the height of the platform it would not handle (not too mention the drive wheel is a flat profile and if I was on one side from "flying" the bike would not be able to have the required traction needed) however maybe when running at a much slower speed like your own Turbo Charged Hayabusa sidecar (160mph?) you can run with the wheel "flying" ?
As you know this side car platform now has the fastest 3 records anywhere 209+ 212+ and 216+ mph, as I stated before if you think I am running the third wheel off the ground on any run you are incorrect, I will refrain from stating that you have been drinking like I did the first time you brought this up however if you make comments like this again I will wonder as to either your mental state or your sobriety.
Take my word for it, the wheel stays on the ground, I do seem to remember that your sidecar did fly the wheel one time about a 100 feet from the starting line however I seem to remember that it went back "down" quickly.
Have a great day.
J
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John, we have to be nice on the NEW forum, so I won't bother to answer your insulting remarks about my drinking habits and mental state or your remarks about my SLOW sidecar record set
in 1991 with a Kawa/Turbo......that was before you were born.......Right...............................................
See you at El Mirage this Sunday............................
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John, we have to be nice on the NEW forum, so I won't bother to answer your insulting remarks about my drinking habits and mental state or your remarks about my SLOW sidecar record set
in 1991 with a Kawa/Turbo......that was before you were born.......Right...............................................
See you at El Mirage this Sunday............................
Bob,
Actually I have followed all forum rules and only responded (once again) to your false, incorrect assumptions. And since you also are incorrect about my age I will tell you (try not to forget this time) I am 41...and you better get that swing set with wheels together to run a good number and still to this day I would assist you to either tune or build you a system to run the speeds you have been denying the rider..unless he is happy with running slower a Turbo Hayabusa for the last several years than with the old school mill from Kawasaki that he ran in 1991..either way I will look forward to seeing you at El Mirage.
Take care.
J
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41 years old...John I got it.....born in 1967...right?
I remember the year well....that was the year I made my first million dollars making and selling
M/C frames....................................................................
Sorry Willie, for John and I hyjacking the thread
See you both this Sunday...........................................
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Actually it is called "hijacking" and the year was 1966 :mrgreen:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/1i1i1i/261gpsavatar.jpg)
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Frank, your sidecar looks great...............the 12x32
sidecar platform is also part of the rules for
the BUB AMA/FIM rules................as I have noted in the past the rule however, does not state that the platform has to be "solid"......we have used expanded metal.....cuts down air-drag...............
Good luck at Speedweek..........................................
Bak,
I'm afraid the additional weight of an expanded metal vs a plain aluminium plate would be a disadvantage for our 50cc small engine. :|
And we use a part of the platform as a sponsors displaying surface !!... :lol:
Regarding the flying chair, and probably because of our platform important height (it was the target),
we didn't experience this problem during any of our testing sessions.
We've tested the outfit with different ballasts, the smaller one beeing 5 kg.
Frank.
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Frank, you are right the steel expanded metal might be to heavy for your small outfit. We do have alum. expanded here but it is hard to find.
Good luck, how fast do you expect to go???
John, I know that there is no way for you to "fly the wheel" with the big, flat tire you are using....
........I just like to rattle your cage......and it ALWAYS works.......the speeds you get out of your
'sidecar" are really outstanding......now make a igger platform and put Bob M. in the chair.........
anybody who can ride that big twin-engine Harley has no fear...........................................................
By the way I will be increasing the sidecar purse at the BUB this year......Money John......Real Money
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two more races in the dirt before bonneville -- i dont think john or anyone else who runs a sidecar would fly the chair not a safe thing to do willie buchta
Being an Old rookie{at El mirage and Racing a side car} I can tell you Bak189 John's Bike was the smoothest most stable bike I can remember racing ,and it took everything I had to keep her under 5000rpm in 6th :cry:!It was like finally getting the Hottest chick on the Planet alone IN Bed,and Naked and I HAD TO BEHAVE :x or John , Bob ,and the Rest of my SDRC would have done BAD Things to me :-o!It's The Finest 3wheeeled side Hack ever built for LSR Plain and simple :mrgreen:!
Hope to see you all the this weekend {GOD WILLING}!!!!!!
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Bak,
The top speed we've reached at sea elevation was 83 km/h, i.e 51,875 mph :-o :roll:, in sidecar form.
We've had a test session in a French town that's also called Bonneville and is located at 1200 meters, which is close to Bonneville, Utah elevation.
The temperature and surface conditions were far from beeing similar, so the loss of performance was limited.
I'm currently corresponding with John Romero, that ran a 2-stroke non sidecar moped Express 50cc at Bonneville,
we will probably able to estimate the loss.
We are using a zero toe-in configuration on the sidecar outfit, along with the wheel far forward from the rear m/c one.
This seems to work fine for our small displacement and power engine, both in terms of rolling resistance and stability.
But the rolling resistance isn't zero : we've conducted a one-shot test run while removing the sidecar outfit, in solo form,
and I've reached a slightly higher (85 km/h) after only 300 meters (instead of 900 in s/c form),
then I had to cut the power since the sprocket ratio was obviously far too short :-).
We will be conducting a last test session on next Wednesday,
with the goal to test the m/c version regarding its stability and top speed habilities.
Our racing machine is called Saline Contender. http://www.lestriplettesdebonneville.com/Pages/Album/AlbumDetail.aspx?Rubrique_Id=7&Galerie_Id=185 (http://www.lestriplettesdebonneville.com/Pages/Album/AlbumDetail.aspx?Rubrique_Id=7&Galerie_Id=185)
Saline Contender will compete both in s/c and m/c versions, but with different mud guards,
since the rules are more restrictive in m/c, even in special construction class.
Regards,
Frank.
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Frank, many thanks for all the great information
Being that your outfit is small displacement and light in weight, zero toe-in on the chair wheel
will work for you.........................................................
Bon chance mon ami................................................
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Now back to Willies rebuild. :-D
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well im back from el mirage --not so good i got a little greedy with the NOS trying to upgrade my license and blew up the engine two times the first time on friday --my friend big mike brewer brought me enough parts to fix it (340 miles one way) sunday early the bike wouldnt run right so i turned off the track second pass everything went great until the top of 3rd gear there was an explosion and a fire and light show and hot metal stuck in my leathers --i did however manage to coast across the finish line at 75 mph --i needed the points i moved from 11th spot to 59th in the starting line up for july--o well -- see you all then willie buchta