Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Sumner on February 19, 2008, 11:50:41 AM
-
Well a few more things are out of the way almost...............
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/2-13-8-7%20Ph%20Bar.jpg)
.............. I got the push bar mostly done ( http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/construction%20page-100.html )
.............. and .........................
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/2-14-8-16%20ch%20mt.jpg)
........... since I moved the chute tubes back I moved the attach point for the chute lines further back into the rear door area ( http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/construction%20page-101.html )
............... and ........................
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/2-18-8-20%20Tank-2.jpg)
............... pretty much finished the fuel tank except for the filler, return line, vent/tip over valve and pump/filter mount ( http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/construction%20page-102.html ) which I'll work on today.
I'm getting stuff done, but August is coming fast,
Sum
-
Sumner, what is that yellow thingie with wheels on it sitting in the background?
-
Sumner, what is that yellow thingie with wheels on it sitting in the background?
I can tell you if he is a little shy.
It is a hemorrhoid pusher.
Note: Fill the pusher tube with expanding foam after the surface finish is appied to keep the crud out, and increase the clearance between the push roller and the steel tube to let the crud out. :wink:
-
Sumner, what is that yellow thingie with wheels on it sitting in the background?
That's the "Admiration Station".
Beautiful work, Sum!
-
The yelllow thing is for his fat friends to set there fat arse in to weld when they come to visit. :-D
Sum,are you coming over tomorow? its snowing a little,but doesnt look like its gonna do anything big.
Later,Phil.
-
The yelllow thing is for his fat friends to set there fat arse in to weld when they come to visit. :-D
Sum,are you coming over tomorow? its snowing a little,but doesnt look like its gonna do anything big.
Later,Phil.
I should be over. The yellow thing is required when you get past 60 and I have another one out there (red) that isn't in the picture that is just as vital :-).
c ya tomorrow,
Sum
-
The yelllow thing is for his fat friends to set there fat arse in to weld when they come to visit. :-D
Sum,are you coming over tomorow? its snowing a little,but doesnt look like its gonna do anything big.
Later,Phil.
:-o I'm kind of "toey" about welding sitting down , squatting is fine but when you're sitting there can be issues with hot slag .....and the bag....... :-o :oops: :cry:
-
good work Sum. looks like everything is coming together.
are you going to make it to Maxton in april.
keep up the good work
later
robbie
-
Mr. Sumner (hope I spelled it right).....Nice work, I just finished my "all in one" push bar, chute tie down along with my chute pack mount that I can move all over the back of my car to check which is the best spot....will send pics when I can figure out how to do it. I've got a 27 Highboy (Boss 302), and Bob Stroud said I needed a chute launcher, but I don't see any other 27's with a launcher, plus I don't have any room in the trunk with 4 Group 31 batteries (Optima), my cage supports and fuel cell to hold the can. So being the country boy that I am, figured that I would do some highway tests to see where it works the best.....will let you know as the weather gets warmer to conduct my tests. Just want you to also know that you are a great inspiration....I just turned 64, built my own experimental airplane (sold it in 2006), but my first love is hot rods, and in a couple weeks, I'm going to do some sky diving, just to show those young pups whose Boss! You're workmanship looks great! Keep Up The Good Work!
-
Mr. Sumner (hope I spelled it right).....Nice work, I just finished my "all in one" push bar, chute tie down along with my chute pack mount that I can move all over the back of my car to check which is the best spot....will send pics when I can figure out how to do it. I've got a 27 Highboy (Boss 302), and Bob Stroud said I needed a chute launcher, but I don't see any other 27's with a launcher, plus I don't have any room in the trunk with 4 Group 31 batteries (Optima), my cage supports and fuel cell to hold the can. So being the country boy that I am, figured that I would do some highway tests to see where it works the best.....will let you know as the weather gets warmer to conduct my tests. Just want you to also know that you are a great inspiration....I just turned 64, built my own experimental airplane (sold it in 2006), but my first love is hot rods, and in a couple weeks, I'm going to do some sky diving, just to show those young pups whose Boss! You're workmanship looks great! Keep Up The Good Work!
It's just Sum or Sumner, my first name :-). You need to get someone to follow you when you do your chute tests and video that :lol: and then post it :-o. I would love to see that. I almost went sky diving 40 years ago, but chickened out and don't see it in my future now. You do that and maybe you will be an inspiration to me. I love to fly, but think I'll stick to having wings under me or a parasail above me.
Take lots of pictures of your build and post them,
Sum
-
Hey Sum,
nice work on the fuel tank and coolers.
We made a mistake to fill ours with fuel before fully testing its integrity which meant we couldn't reweld dodgy bits. It looked fine by eye, and held water OK, but when with fuel it sprouted leaks in a few places. As you know with aluminium, the slightest bit of dust and it compromises the weld.
So, if you haven't already, please check the tank with air under water under pressure or the like so you can remedy the situation prior to filling.
Keep up th good work and hope you are well.
rH+
-
Hey Sum,
nice work on the fuel tank and coolers.
We made a mistake to fill ours with fuel before fully testing its integrity which meant we couldn't reweld dodgy bits. It looked fine by eye, and held water OK, but when with fuel it sprouted leaks in a few places. As you know with aluminium, the slightest bit of dust and it compromises the weld.
So, if you haven't already, please check the tank with air under water under pressure or the like so you can remedy the situation prior to filling.
Keep up th good work and hope you are well.
rH+
Will do and see you in less than 12 months (still no chance of you getting over here before then???),
Sum
-
Believe me I'd love to Sum and take you up on your offer of a tour.
I am finishing this job at the end of July which will mean the possibility of some time off (I need it after a year of 50 hour weeks) but simply not cashed up enough having bought a farm.
I think we'll definitely save to come when the tank is sorted and bring that with us.
Rev.H+
-
Believe me I'd love to Sum and take you up on your offer of a tour.
I am finishing this job at the end of July which will mean the possibility of some time off (I need it after a year of 50 hour weeks) but simply not cashed up enough having bought a farm.
I think we'll definitely save to come when the tank is sorted and bring that with us.
Rev.H+
It has taken me almost 65 years to get to the point where I can make a trip over there, so I understand, but if the chance comes up you have a place to stay and a tour.
c ya,
Sum
-
Sure. And of course you can stay at the farm. It is just north of the Twelve Apostles on the Great Ocean Road (one of the world's great must drives).
We were there this weekend and had 8 big kangaroos and a wallaby loafing around. Mind you there was also a truckload of snakes and spiders too but I reckon you can deal with that given you probably have dealt with the odd rattler or two.
Does this mean its a definite that you are coming next year?
rH+
-
Sum,
Got a question. On my Parachute attach point, I have set it up so it will pivot 360 degrees. Essentially, my push tube is 1 1/2" diameter with a 1 3/4" tube and bushings that make it very easy to swivel. The anchor looks like I added a "wing" to the tube, with an anchor poing with brass bushings, holding a clevis that the chute anchor will attach too. The thought came up in my mind to day, that when I launched both my chutes in my funny car, that they spun around before coming to a stop. What concerns me is that when I launch my single, it might want to just keep spinning????? I tried to think out every thing and engineer it so that it would come out at any angle, so if I got crossed up, it would save me from a spin. I had little thought about the chute causing it to spin.....what do you think? Maybe I should wait until I do my tests to find out what will happen, and then I can insert a pin to fix it. Your comments as well as others welcomed.....Thanks!
-
DSR, you definately DO NOT want a spinning chute atachment point unless you are trying to weave a Navajo rug. As far as the chute launcher, remember Bob Stroud (who I like and is great to deal with) is the only chute manufacturer who makes and sells the launchers. While I would agree that having one would be a bonus, both drag race and LSR cars have done quite well for years without them. Most chute problems are caused by the idiots who packed them. One thing that Bob recomends that I agree with is angling the chute pack mount with a upwards angle to kick the pilot up into the airstream. I havn't done it yet but its on the list.............
-
Sure. And of course you can stay at the farm. It is just north of the Twelve Apostles on the Great Ocean Road (one of the world's great must drives).
We were there this weekend and had 8 big kangaroos and a wallaby loafing around. Mind you there was also a truckload of snakes and spiders too but I reckon you can deal with that given you probably have dealt with the odd rattler or two.
Does this mean its a definite that you are coming next year?
rH+
As far as I'm concerned it is definite.
There are rattlers here..........
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/temp-pictures/Rattlesnake.jpg)
......this one on the way back from the ruins I took Jon and Nancy and others to, but I only see one every year or two. I saw a lot more in Wyoming where I lived.
There aren't any cows that need milking on that farm are there 8-),
c ya in a year,
Sum
-
sum
there are snakes all over the world,I just finished sending pms back and forth with a snake in detroit that I sent money too 30 some days ago for air ride for kaytlyns car and havent recieved it yet. :x
what the heck are you doing up so late?
later,phil.
sorry,probly not the place for this kind of thing.
-
Bob,
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your insight. I agree that most people just throw the chute in the pack and go. I have never been one of those, especially when shutoffs on the drag strip are so short, it is life or death. I will anchor it and try to figure out how I can make it so it will only have 180 degrees on the top or on the bottom of the tube for side loads, 180 degrees side to side. This will keep it from spinning and give me the flexibility to take a side load on either side.......your thoughts on this also.
With regard to your comments on Bob, I also hold him in high esteem, not only for his parachute quality and advice, but for his personal quality, that being Special Forces, which I am very famaliar with. In fact I am going skydiving in a few weeks myself. I made my chute pack mount, which is a 1" tube that attaches to my push bar with a pin and wraps itself close to the lower deck panels and the bottom portion of the rear deck lid. I built it so it can be positioned anywhere from one side of my car to the other (kind'a like a windshield wiper only I can pin it in anyone of several positions). I will first try it with a high mount just above the bottom of the passenger side of my trunk lid with the chute facing upwards at about a 45 degree angle. If this doesn't work, all I have to do is pull a pin, and move it up or down to anyone of those attach points. Bob said that I need a launcher, because '27's are so dirty in the rear, it is hard to get a chute to launch. I didn't argue with him. I have taken his insight into consideration, but there is no where that I can fit a chute launcher on the back of my car or sink it in the back of my trunk (if that is legal). The trunk is full of batteries, fuel cell, roll cage structure and possibly, my fire system, so there is no room for a chute launcher. I am taking Bob's advice very seriously, and if it is necessary, I will add one and reconfigure my trunk. First, I will fix my chute anchor, and then on to the placement of the chute pack.
Have a Great Day! :-) Bill Brutsman
-
First I don't feel comfortable making chute recommendations, I call Bob and listen to him. I will tell you what has been a problem on Hooley's car.
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/hooley/2006S-13.jpg)
Hard to see, but this was our chute mount the first couple years with the roller to push the car with at the end of the bar and the attach point for the chute roller by the step-down area that is better seen in this...........................
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/temp-pictures/2005-changes-8.jpg)
............... picture (the chute mounts on a roller where the two taps are with holes in them). You can see the one bar held the chute, chute mount and push roller. I'm pretty sure the tube is 1 1/4 thick wall in this picture. This all worked fine for 2004 and 2005 but when Hooley tried to spin the car in 2006 and was able to catch it by getting the chute out...............
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CU59SUocJoA
(a good view of the chute and how it reacted and how fast you can be sideways --- stroud chute)
................. the bar was bent at a 45 degree angle near the body. This was from the impact on the bar when the car had spun to about 90 degrees to the track and the chute hit and pulled the car back around. There is going to be a tremendous load at that time.
Since then we shorten the bar as much as possible and and doubled up on the thickness, but I still think it might have bent some last year when the same situation came up again.
I would like to see the attach point either right at the bumper area where there is a cross-member just inside or have the mount triangulated from the bumper area to where the chute attaches to the bar. If you are thinking multiple chutes at some point still just have the attach point very near to each other. The only adjustment I would consider at all is vertically if you are concerned where vertically the best attach point is. I'm doing that on my car................
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/construction%20page-101.html
............................... to begin with, but it would a little harder to do with your car.
I think the idea of mounting the chute pack at an angle is a good one and has worked very well for this................
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/chute-2.jpg)
............... car that has a normal chute pack behind the doors. In fact I see no reason the pack couldn't be mounted to throw the chute at a way more vertical angle than horizontal like in the picture. They told me they have never had a deployment issue and maybe if they are on this board would like to comment. Just be careful how you route your lines so that they don't want to snag on anything as they are pulled out.
Good luck,
Sum
-
Bob,
FYI.....Just off the phone with an old friend Russ Eyres. I didn't realize that you are a member of the San Diego Roadster Club.....I am too as of January 2008....great club with great people. I was the President of the Denver Roadsters the year after Norm Francis, who is a great friend. I value your opinion as well as Russ, Eric's and Sum's alot. My past includes drag racing and circle track racing.... Russ speaks highly of you guys and agreed with you, and said just to make the parachute anchor stationary (I will put a pit pin, so it won't move). I will get pictures to Sum as soon as I redo the anchor.
Thanks Again!
-
A longer lanyard will allow the chute to reach out to smoother air, reduce the shock load on the assembly with a longer span of time to blossom, and with the added benefit of reducing the pull angle on the vehicle.
Spin doesn't really hurt anything, but if close coupled in turbulence, they tend to make it want to fly up. :wink:
-
A longer lanyard will allow the chute to reach out to smoother air, reduce the shock load on the assembly with a longer span of time to blossom, and with the added benefit of reducing the pull angle on the vehicle........
In our case and after talking to Bob I wouldn't change a thing on Hooley's chute and/or lines. The chute and lines have been working perfectly and did a perfect job of saving the car from going around.
Our problem has been the design of the attach point on our part not being adequate and not realizing the loads that can occur there when the car isn't straight.
c ya,
Sum
-
Bill, one thing to consider on the chute attachment point: the lower the point is, the easier its going to be to wrap the chute around the rear axle in a spin. There are several theories on where the attachment point should be, but considering the amount of salt we have to slow down, I would keep in mind the fact that at one time or another you may be spinning with the chute out, and I wouldn't let the theory's overrule the dangers of where the tag line may go. In my opinion, the last thing you should do if you are starting to spin is pull the chute. You will do a lot less damage to the car (and yourself) spinning than if you wrap the chute around the axle and become a turtle. It is not neccesary or even recomended to pull the chute as you pass thru the timing lights. Driving on the salt is not like being on pavement, quick reflexes can get you in a lot of trouble. Remember, you steer these cars with the throttle, not the steering wheel.................Bob
-
Jack I have to disagree with you when you say spin doesn't hurt. In thirty years of drag racing and thirteen years on the salt I have seldom witnessed a chute blossom properly when the tag line was spinning. The proper packing of a typical racing parachute dictates that they come out in a orderly fashion to enable the individual panels to blossom out correctly. Thats tough to accomplish if the tag line is spinning.
-
......... In my opinion, the last thing you should do if you are starting to spin is pull the chute. You will do a lot less damage to the car (and yourself) spinning than if you wrap the chute around the axle and become a turtle................Bob
Bob I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.
I feel the car and the speed will be a determining factor on if spinning is better or worst for you and the car vs. the possibility of the chute wrapping around the car. In our case with that spoiler sticking out back the last thing I want so see is Hooley and the car at over 200 mph going down the track backwards with that thing stuck into the air. Look at the cars that have gone airborne on You Tube as a result of getting backwards or sideways to the air. Look at the results on the NASCAR cars 10 years or so ago prior to the roof flaps and a lot of our cars are even a bigger disaster waiting to happen than those cars were. We've added a roof flap and it did deploy in 2006, but I think the big saving factor we have in our favor is our chutes. I'll have a button on the steering wheel in my car to get the chute out as quickly as possible with a manual backup. I for sure don't want my 23 foot long lakester getting sideways if I can help it.
If you are running under 200 and with something that doesn't have a rear spoiler then I think your chances of going airborne or greatly diminished.
c ya,
Sum
p.s. If you or anyone wants to see those videos they are down in the "Videos of Land Speed Racing On The Internet (You Can Download)" section here.............
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bvillelinks.htm
-
Sum, very few cars I have witnessed spin on the salt remain backwards long enough to go airborn. In most cases, the cars caught air as a result of side lift. In the case of the Camaro, the rear end appeared to me to have been to high (partialy by design) but the car probably spun because it was to light in the ass end. I do not disagree that a chute can help straighten you out if it deploys before the spin begins, but being able to deploy in a split second seems doubtfull. If the chute happens to blossom when the car is beyond perpendicular to the course, you are going to be in a hell of a lot of trouble. When I look at Hooleys car, the one thing I believe helps is the under quarter panel farings, which help keep the tag line away from the rear wheels. In Bills case he has a roadster which is already high in the air, therefore in my opinion, the last thing he is going to want is the tug of a chute when he is sideways or backwords. In a longer vehicle such as a streamliner, I think what you say is more likely accurate, but with a coupe, sedan, or roadster, I think I prefer to take the ride.
p.s. watching that Camaro video is a great reminder to all of us to have safety latches on the deck lids if you have a spoiler mounted on it........I use simple cam-over latchs which you can buy at most hardware stores...............
-
........... but being able to deploy in a split second seems doubtfull. If the chute happens to blossom when the car is beyond perpendicular to the course, you are going to be in a hell of a lot of trouble.......................
Hooley has been able to accomplish that spit second thing twice now and he is almost as old as you and me :-).
I'm sure this is going to be a personal belief, gut feeling kind of deal that there will be multiple feelings as to what is right and I just wanted to get mine out there.
If the chute deploys and wraps around the car I don't think that is going to be any better or worst as far as the car stopping. If you wait for the car to stop spinning then you don't need the chute either. The worst I can see happening is damaging the chute and it looks kind of silly to see the chute all wrapped around the car 8-), but I'll take that as an option with hopefully the other option being that the chute did get out and stopped the car from being backwards to the air at over 230 mph in our case and where that might lead.
We can talk about this in August over my one beer a day, you can have as many as you want :-),
Sum
-
Sum, unfortunately I am self-restricted to "near beer" nowdays, and it tastes like Yak piss (according to taste expert Dolan). A cold water will do as long as its not the "drug laced" municipal water we have all been drinking for fifty years. On the serious side, the great part of a site like this is allowing two "experts" like you and me to debate sometimes serious topics (no politics, thank you). What it allows is the reader to digest different aspects and views and then hopefully make the right decisions without all the learning mistakes some of us have made.
By the way, just a reminder to you newbies and oldbies, this site costs money to run, so feel free to send Money to the Landracing administrator, Jon Amo. I try to send a check about three times a year, and feel the site is worth a buck a day to me. Anything you learn on this site should be worth something to you also, even if you don't post.................Bob
-
Sum, unfortunately I am self-restricted to "near beer" nowadays,......... the great part of a site like this is allowing two "experts" like you and me ....
Everyone please take that with a grain of salt 8-). Unfortunately some of the really great experts don't post on here :cry: , but then again Bob and some others do :-D.
By the way, just a reminder to you newbies and oldbies, this site costs money to run, so feel free to send Money to the Landracing administrator, Jon Amo. I try to send a check about three times a year, and feel the site is worth a buck a day to me. Anything you learn on this site should be worth something to you also, even if you don't post.................Bob
That is one thing I do agree with you 100% on. It is a shame that with the number of members this site has (go look at the members pages) that there is not better support for it. I realize that a lot of those people don't post, but if they are just reading it for the entertainment aspect at least a small donation once a year would be considered as appropriate at the least,
Sum
-
Now Sum, I can't agree with that entertainment statement. Only pure facts come out when I speak, and I only fart essence of rose blossoms. Hey, every body needs to be a expert at something, my expertise happens to be bullshit.................... :-D
-
Hey Bob D, if bull shit was money you would be the riches man in Washington state :evil:
-
........ Hey, every body needs to be a expert at something, my expertise happens to be bullshit.................... :-D
Probably why I listed you with the true experts that do post here :-P,
Sum
-
Everyone Thanks!
First, this is the most "chat" I have ever done in a forum of this type. Didn't want to start a war, but I appreciate the point of view that each of you have. When building a new car for a new type of racing, I want the best information out there from guys that have "been there and done that" and each of you fit the bill perfectly.
Secondly, I will try and restrict the length of my chute anchor point to as close to the body as possible. My main tube that everything attaches to is a 1 1/2" tubing with .120 wall.....should I go thicker? It attaches to what was my trailer hitch made out of 1 1/2" 1/4" wall square tubing (about 8" long), welded to my rear crossmember with heavy wall 1" square tubing supports going out approximately 6" on each side. I have 1 1/2" X .120" wall square tubing coming out of the hitch recepticle and it drops down 90 degrees and wraps around the 1 1/2" X .120" wall round tubing that exits aproximately 1/2" below the bottom of the rear of the body, in the center. My chute anchor point is approximately 5" from the rear of my body and goes up 4" from the centerline of the main tubing, made like a 4 sided pyramid with 3/16" plate on all 4 sides,that come to a point, with piece of .120" thick tubing at the end with brass bushings that the 3/4" clevis mount goes through. I believe that it is plenty strong, and gives a good straight shot over the horizontal wheel in the back, so shouldn't get caught up in anything. With regard on whether to mount the anchor on top or on the bottom of the main tube it looks like the best point is on the top, so it doesn't get caught under the axle....better to wrap it around the cage. I guess I will have to get some spin practice....on the salt to see how it feels. I am always concerned about a tire catching and the car going over, but with new tires (Mickey Thompson 30X18 on the rear and 4 Ply Funny Car M & H's on the front) on steel rims, I think that tire problems should be remote. I appreciate the wisdom of each of you and your willingness to help this newby!
Thirdly, I will have Bob Stroud take my information and make a judgement on the length of the tether and the chute size. I am going to be running D/SR to begin with, but I am building my car to run AA down the road. This year is a learning year for me and I want to get in as many runs as possible pending any engine/chassis problems and/or changes.
This is a great forum and learning experience. I look forward to meeting each of you this year. Can you give me Jon Amo's address? Thank You.
-
.........................
Secondly, I will try and restrict the length of my chute anchor point to as close to the body as possible. My main tube that everything attaches to is a 1 1/2" tubing with .120 wall.....should I go thicker? It attaches to what was my trailer hitch made out of 1 1/2" 1/4" wall square tubing (about 8" long), welded to my rear crossmember with heavy wall 1" square tubing supports going out approximately 6" on each side. I have 1 1/2" X .120" wall square tubing coming out of the hitch recepticle and it drops down 90 degrees and wraps around the 1 1/2" X .120" wall round tubing that exits aproximately 1/2" below the bottom of the rear of the body, in the center. My chute anchor point is approximately 5" from the rear of my body and goes up 4" from the centerline of the main tubing, made like a 4 sided pyramid with 3/16" plate on all 4 sides,that come to a point, with piece of .120" thick tubing at the end with brass bushings that the 3/4" clevis mount goes through. I believe that it is plenty strong, and gives a good straight shot over the horizontal wheel in the back, so shouldn't get caught up in anything. With regard on whether to mount the anchor on top or on the bottom of the main tube it looks like the best point is on the top, so it doesn't get caught under the axle....better to wrap it around the cage. ................................
.................... Can you give me Jon Amo's address? Thank You.
Wow, sorry, but I can't visualize all of that :cry:, Do you have a picture? It would be worth at least 255 words in this case 8-) .
Contact Jon Amo at webmaster@landracing.
c ya,
Sum
-
Sum,
I will get a pic when I modify what I have and get it back together. Keep you posted.
Thanks!