Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Steering - Suspension - Rear End => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on February 16, 2008, 04:41:20 PM
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I just got a set of Anglia spindles made by Strange. The only way I can see that they can be mounted is by welding the center "load pivot pin" to a structure. Is this the way it’s done or is there another method.
If the load pin is welded do you have to remove it from the housing (bearing seals???).
Also what is a common structure to affix it too....for instance do you fish mouth a 1.5" solid bar or pipe or do you mate a bar and then put in some reinforcement plates?????
Also it looks like there is 15 degrees camber in the spindles....should they be mounted so there is no camber (will make linkages more difficult)....or should I leave the camber there?
Thanks
-JH
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Your terminology has me confused, but I'm assumimg you are asking how to build a tube axle. I've built several for oval track and they are relitively simple to make. Here's a couple of pics that may help.
I believe your 15 deg. camber is what is really the K.P.I. (King Pin Inclination) and 15 deg. sounds kinda steep. Most prod. and after market spindles run in the 7-10 deg. range but I don't know about Anglias, and yes, the axle boss angle needs to match the spindle kpi.
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What Gene said and somemore to think about. So are you planning a straight axle for the car now?? Don't forget how all of this is going to effect your scrub radius (might want to read Sparky's post on that). I talk about in on my site here:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-21.html
That page is also the start of where I made my front axle and so is the nest page and then it continues starting here:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/construction%20page-50.html
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/Axle%20Bosses-4.jpg)
Here are mine and this is where I'm making the bosses for the kingpin to go through.
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/axles-3.jpg)
More.................. and...............
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/axles-25.jpg)
............. more.
I looked on Strange's site and couldn't find your spindles. Can you post a picture or link. Don't forget what happens to one side of a straight axle can transfer to the other. Not a real big deal at b'ville, but one reason I went with twin axles in the front.
c ya,
Sum
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Sorry it took so long to reply.
Here is a pic of the Anglia spindles:
(http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v204/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30032501_4614.jpg)
As you can see from the pic if they are installed with the "king pin" at 90 degrees the spindle will give the tire a fairly steep negative camber (unless I unstalled them upside down and then have a positive camber!).....
So what is the deal.....do you mount the king pins so the spindle is at 90 degrees.....I would think that would be very detrimental to handling.
Thanks for any replys!
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Are you supposed to weld the king pin to the axle tube?
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Who says you can't have negative camber?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/MillikenMX1CamberCar1960.jpg/180px-MillikenMX1CamberCar1960.jpg)(http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/06/goodwoodopenwheel---16_450.jpg)
The 1960 Milliken MX1 Camber Car showing a large negative camber.
In your picture it's upside down. The kingpin centerline should contact the center line of the contact patch. Ignoring other suspension criteria, it doesn't have to have any camber. The 15 degree angle in the kingpin isn't camber, just a method to get the kingpin centerline to align with the contact patch. If you want the best straight line speed then zero camber is the answer.
If you had a large offset wheel you could put a 90 degree kingpin centerline vertical to the centerline of the contact patch. It's easier to make the wheel, bearing, and brake fit if you push the kingpin off center and angle it towards the tire contact patch.
The kingpin tube gets welded to the frame.
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/kingpin.JPG)
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The 15 degree angle in the kingpin isn't camber, just a method to get the kingpin centerline to align with the contact patch. If you want the best straight line speed then zero camber is the answer.
On further note/explaination... KPI effects scrub. Anytime the steering wheel is turned (even in small amounts for directional correction), the tire scrubs against the contact surface. The more the steering is turned, the greater the scrub becomes. More scrub means more friction and less speed. Turning the steering wheel is like applying the brakes. It slows the chassis and builds heat into the tires. As displayed in Deans pictorial, the scrub radius is the distance between where the SAI intersects the ground and the center of the tire. This distance must be exactly the same from side to side or the vehicle may pull strongly at all speeds. While included angle problems will affect the scrub radius, it is not the only thing that will affect it. Different wheels or tires from side to side will cause differences in scrub radius as well as a tire that is low on air.
Hey JH... whats up with the old school PQ20 in the background ?? Classic piece of equipment...
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jh i dont think they are going to give you an answer --im not sure i am either as im not sure if you are serious or jokeing --if you are serious let me know and i will post a pic willie buchta
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jh i dont think they are going to give you an answer --im not sure i am either as im not sure if you are serious or jokeing --if you are serious let me know and i will post a pic willie buchta
Yep, we all did give an answer and it is consistently the same and correct,
Sum
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thot i'd posted this, but i'll try again - you have the spindle upside down in the picture, right?
the anglia has an approx 8 degree inclination toward the top inward when looking at it from front or rear with the axle parallel to the ground..
You also need caster- kingpin angled back towards rear of car in side view - and a bit of toe in -wheels pointed towards each other going forward looking down on front end.
i believe that's a stilleto spindle built by woodhaven industries and sold by strange and others- good parts!
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JH are the steering arms alum. or steel---if alum---make you some new ones of steel---
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Hey JH... whats up with the old school PQ20 in the background ?? Classic piece of equipment...
High end audio is a second passion of mine. I have 2 PQ20 amps, one I installed last week in my work truck......on a set of Dynaudio separates!!!! (Dynas are not what you would expect in a work truck). I am currently wondering what I should do with the other PQ20.......The MC300 and the Nelson Pass designed series I D100 are also works of audio art.
JH are the steering arms alum. or steel---if alum---make you some new ones of steel---
They are steel.
jh i dont think they are going to give you an answer --im not sure i am either as im not sure if you are serious or jokeing --if you are serious let me know and i will post a pic willie buchta
All things considered…..due to the fact that I had SERIOUS handling issues last season the last thing I would joke about is how to properly set up steering components. I am changing the front end of the car from stock Fiat suspension-steering to a 100% fabricated front end. I did not really understand what the angle was until Dean LA posted the pic……I get it now….sometimes a pic is worth all the explanation you need.
Here is another question……….
For whatever reason I did not want to post the tire-wheel combo I am going to use until I start a “front end rebuild” section in the Build Diaries section, but because it is now a problem the tires are 14" and not the common 22". The problem is that the tires outside diameter is smaller than the “expected” and commonly used 22” front drag tire. This means that the smaller dimeater of the tire will mean the contact patch will not be inline with the center of the king pin angle. Because of the smaller diameter tire the king pin line will be to the inside of the contact patch.
What do I need to do?????
Thanks for all your comments.
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...I am currently wondering what I should do with the other PQ20.......
:-D Sell it to me... as I have nothing to drive the last set of new in the box 325i's that I have left.
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Jonny:
Build the front end so you have no or very little negative camber. Set it up so that the caster is fully adjustable. The recomendations for that setting will likely be all over the place depending on who makes the recommendation and what their background is. I would guess that the figures will range anywhere from 7 degrees to 15.
As interested bystander suggested the photo shows the spindle upside down. If you can find wheels with the correct offset to give you zero scrub radius that will be a bonus, otherwise go for the minimum you can get and it should not cause any problems.
Pete
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If you had a 22 inch diameter tire that is 5 inches wide, then the kingpin offset works out to 2.95" from the center of the tire to the center of the kingpin. This allows the tire to pivot around that point.
If you have a 14 inch diameter tire that is 5 inches wide, then with the same wheel offset you would be inside the center of the contact patch and instead of pivoting around the same point, the tire will swing in an arc. This changes the relationship between the fixed rear wheels and the swinging front wheels, and not in a good way.
You need 1.88 inches to bring the 14" tires to the correct contact patch.
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/kingpin2.JPG)
What you need to determine is where exactly your tires and wheels will land. The offset of the wheel is the determining factor. The 14" wheel may have a very different offset. You could be right where you need to be, or way worse.
The two possibilities for adjusting are to have either the kingpin made at a different angle to match the tire diameter and wheel offset, or change the wheel offset to match the kingpin. The offset can be changed with a spacer if you are outside the contact point. If you are inside then the wheel has to be modified or find a wheel with a different offset.
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If you had a 22 inch diameter tire that is 5 inches wide, then the kingpin offset works out to 2.95" from the center of the tire to the center of the kingpin. This allows the tire to pivot around that point.
If you have a 14 inch diameter tire that is 5 inches wide, then with the same wheel offset you would be inside the center of the contact patch and instead of pivoting around the same point, the tire will swing in an arc. This changes the relationship between the fixed rear wheels and the swinging front wheels, and not in a good way.
You need 1.88 inches to bring the 14" tires to the correct contact patch.
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/kingpin2.JPG)
What you need to determine is where exactly your tires and wheels will land. The offset of the wheel is the determining factor. The 14" wheel may have a very different offset. You could be right where you need to be, or way worse.
The two possibilities for adjusting are to have either the kingpin made at a different angle to match the tire diameter and wheel offset, or change the wheel offset to match the kingpin. The offset can be changed with a spacer if you are outside the contact point. If you are inside then the wheel has to be modified or find a wheel with a different offset.
Nice drawings Dean. One other thing that will effect it is caster. The more caster the further out front that point where it hits the ground is and the further out from the car the point will be. It is like going to a larger dia. wheel/tire combo, so that has to be taken into consideration. At least I think it does and hope that it does,
Sum
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another handy device you might consider in setting up your front end is Mark Williams part #33600
Ive attached new front ends on cars with this device by just clamping it on the frame, or you can adapt it to a chassis jig- as it shows the axle is held parallel to the bar belosw- all you need to worry about is getting caster the same both sides
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When I acquired the tires/ wheels (4 tires and 4 wheels) they came with a very trick set of machined billet aluminum and some.....lesser cool Weld Racing stamped wheels.
Come to find out the wheel offset for the Weld wheel is considerably more inset then the billet wheels.
From the pic does it look like it will be an acceptable angle for the more inset Weld wheels?
The only option I have is to have some custom wheels made or return the pre-hung kingpin spindles and order just the spindle and weld it up my own spindles to the king pin boss at a steeper angle.....both IMO will suck.
Thanks for all replies, will look at the Mark Williams part.
(http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v204/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30032869_511.jpg)
(http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v204/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30032870_919.jpg)
(http://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v204/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30032871_1300.jpg)
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how heavy is your front end.?..... how fast ya plannin to go with those tires.?....well forget those questions.... dude, dont put those tires on your car.!......
kent
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What you have are the old top fuel front wheels and tires no longer legal. plenty of runs in the1/4 over 300 with them- they are actualy 13" dia. there's many out there on smaller landspeed vehicles. i'd be nervous about a lot of nose weight-
the wheels steve leach (he makes top fuel and funny car starter mechanisms) made back in the day were even more friendly towards scrub, but I never heard of handling problems with any in drag use.
welds are preferable- maybe more accurate, too.
I still have a "sticker" set for who knows what in the future. not 4 sale.
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Those tires are old funny car fronts?
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the tires and wheels you have are old dragster fronts --they worked good on a very light dragster --they had a problem of tripping the lights and causing a red light (that race was over for you) do not DO NOT put those wheels and tires on your car--i have 3 sets of the same wheels and tires i use them for building sidecars --less than 200 mph with 62 lbs of sidecar i wouldnt be afraid to run them to 300 on a side car but wont run them on the front because of a rule on minimum rim size--- doesnt the car rules have a minimum rim size
just some thoughts willie buchta
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What year dragsters are we talking about here, 1970's? Or were those the tiny fronts they experimented with in the mid 80's and early 90's?
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Bernstein ran the first 300 mph run on them in '92- they were built by Goodyear out of necessity because Don Garlits showed up a year or so before with first belts on his wheels and later aircraft tires- I witnessed Big Daddy changing his front end at Bkersfield after the belts flung off as he replaced them with the airplane rubber.
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What you have are the old top fuel front wheels and tires no longer legal
I know of a number of people using them currently. When did they become illegal?
how heavy is your front end.?..... how fast ya plannin to go with those tires.?....well forget those questions.... dude, dont put those tires on your car.!......
A: not sure yet but fairly light (car is a mid engine)
B: I dont think it will make 200 this year
C: I was told the tires were LSR proven, they were legal and were good to 250.
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illegal for top fuel/top alcohol probably for ten years.-call NHRA, but I would get Goodyear's opinion if I had a nose-heavy, high front downforce or just plain heavy vehicle.
keep them out of light,like mushrooms.
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Cars that have (and currently except the NT2) run the same tire at speed much faster than I will be going.
(http://photos-579.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v204/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30033058_3980.jpg)
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I am building an aerodynamically neutral front end....I learned last year that aerodynamic weight does not in fact equal physical weight. The design will not progressively increase a percentage of lateral pressure, lift or down force.
I have already designed a safety skid that will act like a ski on the salt if a tire comes apart. This skid will allow the vehicle to be controlled, not have a section of frame "dig", potentially flip the car and to prevent or limit damage to the salt and could very well save the car (or person driving) if there is a tire failure. I will post concept designs soon.
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Don't want to turn this in to a P#####g contest but aerodynamicly neutral sounds like the lady on TV that used to say her coffee was "the richest kind" WTF does that mean?
Aerodynamic weight certainly isn't the same as physical weight.- abour 25 years ago I built a wing for an open competion "modified" of some sort and at the Copper Classic the car blew BOTH rear tires!
CAREFULL!
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j does your wheels have the bearings for the anglia spindle --i have the right spindles for that type of wheel only thing is they are for a 5/8 in. bearing --for a rear engine dragster --also the wheel with the right setup has much more back space but even the right one doesnt have a perfect scrub line but it is close --another place i could see a problem is with the stud size it has to be 1/2 in i also am posting some pics --- maybe you could change the backspace to get the scrub to come around. williebuchta
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Here are the pics.
Willie Buchta
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Cars that have (and currently except the NT2) run the same tire at speed much faster than I will be going.
(http://photos-579.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v204/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30033058_3980.jpg)
What lakester is the bottom one? Quite a different front end!
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a couple of more pics
willie buchta
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The lakester on the bottom belongs to Rick Byrnes. He is a regular on the board and maybe he will chime in on the subject.
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WILLIE my boy the stud size in the rule booki refers to the MOUNTING studs like 5 on 5 etc, the bolts you see hold the wheels together like the rivets on Centerlines.
Don't confuse the guy.
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not trying to confuse anyone just trying to touch all of the bases --all of the rims that i have have a center hub that hold the bearings and seals on the hub is a flange thar the rest of the rim bolts to ( lug nuts) so they are not a true spindle mount wheel no more then your pickup truck--i do have one set of rims that are true spindle mount wheels no hub the wheels are machined so that the bearings press into the wheel no hub --i just use them for sidecars (they are spitzer race car wheels) if someone needed them for a car i would be willing to trade for a set with a hub it makes no differance in the motorcycle classes im not sure it does in the car classes as im not that familer with the car classes just some thoughts if you look at the pics of jonnys wheels you will see that they both have hubs willie buchta
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I've tried posting these 3 times and am still having problems.
Sometimes I hate computers.
JH
here are some photos.
I will write another note to explain.
Rick
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These are old Mark Williams aluminum axles. (DONT USE)
They show one assembly method but the photos don't reflect caster angle which would be built into the locating brackets. (4 link)
The tires have been discussed before, but once again, they were designed for 1000 pound load at 300 MPH. Initially they were made for Don Garlits, but used by lots of rear engine dragsters from the mid 70's to present.
I think for your little light weight Fiat with modified sports length wheelbase you will have no problem. BUT, In my opinion there is way too much rubber, and they need to be shaved and buffed. I have had Vilven tires in the Chicago area do some normal tires, but they cant do the little ones. Since I'm going away from them on my liner (Yep, no more lakester) it isn't a problem for me.
My entire set up may be available if someone is interested. Or not.
Good Luck
Rick
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I know of a number of people using them currently. When did they become illegal?
They are legal on special construction cars (as you know that means Streamliners and Lakesters). I loaned out my rule book so can't check for sure . . but . . . memory tells me that the Modified Category (which includes Modified Sports) has a minimum wheel size. ( and for sure it ain't 5 inches. )
I could be wrong and hopefully someone will chime in with paragraph and verse . . .
I have a pair of the Aero wheels in the basement for my 'next' project. Hence the moniker 'little liner', . . . but I can't and won't be running them on my gas coupe.
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the mininum wheel dia. for all vintage category vehicles with the exception of VOT is 14 inch willie buchta
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Key word here is WHEEL- not to be confused with TIRE - diameter!!
Ironically the footprint and FRONTAL area of the 5" rim top fuel tire and wheel isn't much better than the original 2.25/17 top fuel tire/rim assembly that, at least with Goodyear, has gone thru an evolution or two since.
That 17" size is also made for drag racing by Hoosier, MT and Phoenix.
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the mininum wheel dia. for all vintage category vehicles with the exception of VOT is 14 inch willie buchta
He isn't vintage Willie,
Sum
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SUM:
I think WB was replying to Littleliners statement:
They are legal on special construction cars (as you know that means Streamliners and Lakesters). I loaned out my rule book so can't check for sure . . but . . . memory tells me that the Modified Category (which includes Modified Sports) has a minimum wheel size. ( and for sure it ain't 5 inches. )
WB was saying the minimum was for Vintage -VOT.
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jonny e mail me your address and i will send you a good book that will answer all of your questions willie buchta