Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Water/Methanol Injection => Topic started by: oz on December 27, 2007, 04:40:56 AM
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Will water Injection deter detonation when used with Nitrous as in, will ignition retard still be nescasary if detonation can be stopped using a water injection system activated with the Nitrous?
Any benefit from this or is it wasted effort?
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Detonation control is a must when using nitrous. Using water to control detonation, is really a cover up for poor detonation control. You can do it without water injection. One less system to complicate the system. Proper system setup with proper fuel and retard will work and has been proven in many LSR efforts.
Timing control, system setup, fuel, bottle pressure, engine setup are your main concerns. Anything else is is a cover up for improper setup.
Stick with small hp settings until you have a grip on system control and doing it consistently without engine failure. Nitrous is unforgiving. There have been successfull teams running it for 4+ miles on the salt on smaller displacement engines.
Jon
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The comments re complexity, parts left out do not fail, etc. of course are applicable.
However: using retard only will save the engine - but without a few explosions for testing, only an expensive one (J&S Safeguard) will do so without reducing power so far that the run is wasted (i.e., result is you learned nothing, won nothing, broke nothing). Just backing off 20 degrees is probably safe, but how about 15? etc.
Retard alone will also raise chamber temperature (mix burning later in the power stroke = heat without mechanical energy) - which means it must retard more to offset the nitrous.
Water alone will reduce power but reduces chamber temp, so you'll need less retard for the same degree of safety.
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20 degrees.!... 20 degrees.?... you go boom buddy...
kent
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How about a better fuel...
Jon
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i think this nos thing is really simple---make sure what your jets flow i dont care what it says on the jets---know what your fuel pressure is with gas flowing through the jet---know what the ratio of nos to fuel is (by weight)and jet to that ---(my bike is jetted 80 to 85 percent nos to gas (BY WEIGHT) it makes 77 hp on gas and 112 on the bottle-i run 36 degrees total timing in the gas class and 34 degrees total timing in the fuel class --i have 6 lbs of fuell pressure all of the time --i always keep the bottle at about 75 degrees i want liquid comeing out those jets not vapor--no retard junk no water junk i keep it simple --you have to make it to the end of the track 2 times to set a record 3 if you are a rookie-- i ran nos all this year 6 races at el mirage and 2 at bonneville i had a new speedometer in may today it has 149 miles on it and dont forget to use that air fuel ratio guage just my thoughts ---one more thing i run 100 octane 76 pump gas willie buchta
happy holidays ride safe
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Thanks Guys I was just thinking that as I am only using about a 50-60 hp shot that it isnt going to be a huge amount of retard needed and maybe I could advance the Ignition a bit for more power whilst not on shot and overcome retarding the ignition when it comes in by using water instead of retardation
I have been listening to all that has been said on this Nitrous subject everything will be flowed checked and double checked just keep getting Ideas in the small hours and need to bounce them around a bit.
Cheers Oz
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Thanks Guys I was just thinking that as I am only using about a 50-60 hp shot that it isnt going to be a huge amount of retard needed and maybe I could advance the Ignition a bit for more power whilst not on shot and overcome retarding the ignition when it comes in by using water instead of retardation
I have been listening to all that has been said on this Nitrous subject everything will be flowed checked and double checked just keep getting Ideas in the small hours and need to bounce them around a bit.
Cheers Oz
If you are going for 50-60 HP have you considered alcohol?? A lot more forgiving,
Sum
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I did think about it but its something else i have no experience of "another black art"
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I did think about it but its something else i have no experience of "another black art"
Let's see what someone else might say, but I think it is a far less dangerous and more forgiving "black art",
Sum
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Let me say this about that:having never used n/o I cant say from experience,but from what I hear if you are a little off you can break a lot of pieces, if you are a little off with alchohol you probably wont break anything and it is pretty easy to get close to right with alcohol.
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"20 degrees.!... 20 degrees.?... you go boom buddy..."
It's certainly easy to be wrong, isn't it?
Were you at all concerned with the % of power from nitrous?
Size of the engine?
Original spark setting?
Evidently not.
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helloooooooooo hey what dont you guys understand about my last post ----i did the resurch --i told everyone what i did --i never hurt my engine all year --never had it apart ( except in tech) --never even changed the plugs ---when i decided to run nos i went to my local speed shop the kid that works there set me up with the parts i needed i didnt buy a kit as i had a kit from a street bike --the important thing is to KEEP THE RATIO OF NOS AND FUEL CORRECT( just like a carb or fuel injection ) if you do that you wont have a problem --if you error do it on the rich side--the kid at the speed shop probibly deals with more nos in a week than most people do in a life time ---just my thoughts willie buchta
if anyone needs more info i will be happy to oblige as long as your not running in my class LOL
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willie are you runnin 1 nozzel or 2?
kent
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2 one for each cylinder --another thing is when i flowed the jets i didnt want to waste nos so i just flowed them all with gas i know gas and nos doesnt flow the same but i was just looking for a ratio between the fuel and the nos jets--i should back up and say this i didnt flow anything until the race season was over as a mater of fact i didnt even have a fuel presure guage until the end of the season when i flowed the jets--i did keep a good record of all my runs and the best ones were when the nos jets flowed 80 to 82 percent of the gas jet (both jets were flowed with gas as i said before at 6 lbs of fuel presure ) if any one wants i will give you a list of jets that i ran this year --my engine is a stock 984 cc buell (harley) very mild head port and a set of 3 step pipes that i built --i did change head gaskets and the engine is 10.5 to 1 compression 3.50 bore with 3.125 stroke --i shift at 7000 rpm --the nos is activated at full throttle ---------willie buchta
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2 one for each cylinder --another thing is when i flowed the jets i didnt want to waste nos so i just flowed them all with gas i know gas and nos doesnt flow the same but i was just looking for a ratio between the fuel and the nos jets--i should back up and say this i didnt flow anything until the race season was over as a mater of fact i didnt even have a fuel presure guage until the end of the season when i flowed the jets--i did keep a good record of all my runs and the best ones were when the nos jets flowed 80 to 82 percent of the gas jet (both jets were flowed with gas as i said before at 6 lbs of fuel presure ) if any one wants i will give you a list of jets that i ran this year --my engine is a stock 984 cc buell (harley) very mild head port and a set of 3 step pipes that i built --i did change head gaskets and the engine is 10.5 to 1 compression 3.50 bore with 3.125 stroke --i shift at 7000 rpm --the nos is activated at full throttle ---------willie buchta
Willie,
What ya going to do to the be-last to get it a record or two?
What hp are they stock?
J
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hey john dont let anyone else read this--the b-last is a detuned xb9 (the motor i run) so for sure a xb9 head and piston and cams --with 10.25 to 1 compression the b-last should make 38 hp that should be enough for sheri --she will try and set the 500 cc sc-pg--- sc-pf---sc-pbg and the sc-pbf records we arnt sure she can do it but if she can get close she will have a low start number willie buchta
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hey john dont let anyone else read this--the b-last is a detuned xb9 (the motor i run) so for sure a xb9 head and piston and cams --with 10.25 to 1 compression the b-last should make 38 hp that should be enough for sheri --she will try and set the 500 cc sc-pg--- sc-pf---sc-pbg and the sc-pbf records we arnt sure she can do it but if she can get close she will have a low start number willie buchta
What kind of HP # can they be made to and still be durable and stay together.? I saw the first blast when Buell was doing the testing and it looked like a bunch of left over Buell parts minus one cylinder.... :mrgreen:
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--another thing is when i flowed the jets i didnt want to waste nos so i just flowed them all with gas i know gas and nos doesnt flow the same but i was just looking for a ratio between the fuel and the nos jets--i should back up and say this i didnt flow anything until the race season was over as a mater of fact i didnt even have a fuel presure guage until the end of the season when i flowed the jets--i did keep a good record of all my runs and the best ones were when the nos jets flowed 80 to 82 percent of the gas jet (both jets were flowed with gas as i said before at 6 lbs of fuel presure ) ---------willie buchta
Willie, who says it doesn't pay to be lucky. The ratio should be by weight, N20 to fuel (about 6:1 is OK, 5:1 is richer and loses HP only slightly), results all affected by pressure of fuel delivery and bottle pressure. So you are probably running very rich, since you are comparing jet delivery and gas weighs more than N20. But with that said, ya can't argue with positive results can ya.... :-D
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john you sound pretty intrested your not going to build a b-last for 08 are you --all of the parts are the same except the flywheels(single rod insted of two) the piston lower compresion and the head bigger combustion chamber --motor has 3.50 bore and a 3.125 stroke 500cc the motor i run is 1000 cc same bore and stroke but 2 cylinders ----
stainless read my other post again --when i did my flow tests i flowed gas through the nos and the gas jets the reason for doing that was to make sure that each pair of jets that i had flowed the same (some did and some didnt) i ran a smaller nos jet than gas --example when i ran a 16 nos jet i ran a 18 gas jet --the ratio was between these 2 jets and both were flowed with gas --the biggest jets i ran were 28 nos and 32 gas --im new at this nos thing and that is the only way i could figer out how to do it without wasting lots of nos it worked for me --i run a nos and a gas jet on each head the motor made 77 hp on gas and 112 on the bottle -- lucky yes willie buchta
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John is right, the Blast top end is made of leftover Buell tuber parts, not XB parts.
The Blast came out in 2000, well before the XB line which came out as an '03 model. So even though it's lower end is similar to XB's, and has the 3-1/8 stroke of the XB9, the top end is the older tuber stuff. The head is actually the old "Lightning" head, with a 62cc chamber and 10 degree squish shelf and smallish valves (1.715 intake, 1.580 exhaust). The piston is the 15 degree domed "Thunderstorm" piston. They paired the small chamber Lightning head with the domed Thunderstorm piston because shortening the stroke took away a lot of compression, and those were parts they had sitting around that could get the compression back to something workable. It's still only 9.2:1, though.
The factory mismatched 15 degree dome and 10 degree squish shelf creates something of a fuel trap at the o.d., but honestly, from the factory there's usually so much squish clearance that it doesn't matter anyway.
When they came out with the XB9 they did a better job, a pear-shaped 62cc bathtub chamber with flat (zero degree) squish bands on each side, and a bigger rectangular dome on the piston that sticks up into the chamber, giving 10:1. Not the best design, as fuel coming out of the squish band hits the dome and has to turn a corner, but it works reasonably well and it's easy to manufacture. Very easy to cut a 15 or 30 degree shelf into that head and use a different piston, though.
I fiddled with one of these motors when they first came out. They're pretty tough. Here's what I ended up getting out of, at 515cc:
(http://www.nrhsperformance.com/images/draaronblast.gif)
We took it to the salt flats once, but broke it. At the time, there were no single-cylinder ignition modules available that would allow me to raise the rev limit from the factory 6500rpm number. So I used a module off a Big Twin, that had a 5500rpm limit. Since it was only seeing half the pulses, the rev limit effectively was 11,000 rpm.
Well, we got the jetting dialed in, and my wife, who was riding, took off, and the motor was set up to be peaky as hell, and when it came on the pipe, it really came on the pipe, and spun the tire, and overrev'ed the motor, and dropped a valve. I found the tip of the valve (from the groove up) amidst the debris, it tore it right off.
I put it back together but never did drag it back out to the salt, eventually detuned it for street and sold it.
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the blast motor that i have has the early head design but with a large combustion chamber with a flat squish area and a flat top piston very nice numbers on the dyno but that cc would put you in the 650 cc class --lots of rpm --i did the same with the ignition but changed the pick up to and went with a sportster screaming eagle ign module --what cams and lifters did you run thanks for the info willie buchta
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stainless are you saying i should run 6 lbs of nos to 1 lb of gas -- willie buchta
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Willie,
I will never build a blast however I would ride one if you or someone else built it.
J
PS, AWS thanks for the info as well.
Take care,
J
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stainless are you saying i should run 6 lbs of nos to 1 lb of gas -- willie buchta
Willie, I think that is the enrichment number I remember, but to safely stay on the button for 50 seconds or so, I'd shoot for 5 lbs. to 1. I found wasting 10 to 20 pounds of N20 testing jets was a lot cheaper than flame cutting parts.... :roll: Like you we kept the it Juice, if you start at 750 to 800 PSI, the bottle will keep itself there during heavy usage. Just our experience, yours may vary.
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Stainless yeah I'm with you on the temp of the bottle I try to keep my bottle at 70 degrees which is good for 760psi. I have some really complicated formulas that involves Hydrogen carbon nitrogen oxygen molecules and atomic weights. I can't even type it because its formulas but according to the formulas the chemically correct ratio of gasoline and nitrous oxide is 9.649 pounds of nitrous oxide to 1 pound of gas. For methanol it would be 4.130 pounds. For ethynol it would be 5.740 pounds. For propane it would be 10 pounds for butane it would be 9.930 pounds and for nitro methane it would be 1.090 pounds.If you want the formulas I can possibly take a pic of them and post it???Now remember thats the chemically correct ratio. With gasoline there are alot of variables like the grade the additives ect. ect. All this math is giving me a headache I gotta go take some medicine.
Willie Buchta
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I have some really complicated formulas that involves Hydrogen carbon nitrogen oxygen molecules and atomic weights. I can't even type it because its formulas but according to the formulas the chemically correct ratio of gasoline and nitrous oxide is 9.649 pounds of nitrous oxide to 1 pound of gas. For methanol it would be 4.130 pounds. For ethynol it would be 5.740 pounds. For propane it would be 10 pounds for butane it would be 9.930 pounds and for nitro methane it would be 1.090 pounds.If you want the formulas I can possibly take a pic of them and post it???Now remember thats the chemically correct ratio. With gasoline there are alot of variables like the grade the additives ect. ect. All this math is giving me a headache I gotta go take some medicine.
Willie Buchta
Willie, remember ideal ratio and what keeps the engine together are not the same. Gasoline 14.7:1 may be chemically correct, but it won't race well.
OK, here is something to consider, you add N20 and enrichment fuel to an already tuned engine. The N20 is richer in oxygen than the air it displaces (it is going to displace the normal air in the cylinder). You are spraying liquid that is expanding into gas. Can you calculate the amount of air that is displaced? How much of what passes through before the exhaust valve closes? Not really. The final A/F ratio in the cylinder will vary with RPM, Air Temp, Air Density, and a bunch of other factors. But we have some help, N20 can run up to 100% rich before losing significant power, it will lose some power, the dyno can probably tell you the complete story for your application. I would need to go through all my test and run notes to tell you what enrichment ratios worked best for us, but they are not where I live. Memory tells me stay at 5 to 5.5:1 enrichment ratio and you will make the best power for the longest time. It won't kill your motor unless you add enough HP to overcome rod or crown strength. Again, your results may vary, I am not an expert, just a guy with a lot of Bonneville and N20 experiences.
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stainless im still on a learning curve myself --i think the only way to know where i actually was this last year is to flow the nos jets with nitrous oxide which i will do as soon as i get the chance --you are probibly right about me being rich though --better rich than lean --i will let you know thanks willie
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Nitrous scares me. :-o
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it also does wonderfull things for ya Guy... hey were ya been..... and why didnt ya come down last time you were out.... ya butthead... :-D.
kent
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it also does wonderfull things for ya Guy... hey were ya been..... and why didnt ya come down last time you were out.... ya butthead... :-D.
kent
John tried to get me out there, but my plane flight was too close for comfort. I just knew I would get delayed and miss my flight if I came down there from LA. But...You haven't called, no flowers, no dancing girls, no letters or cards, I'm hurt.
When you get a few minutes to spare, give me a call if you can.
Guy
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Ok apology accepted....We dont let the dancin girls get to far away from the shop.....I still love ya man.....
Kent
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hey Kent did you get PM with Morini details?
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Well getting back to the original topic, water or alki injection does make wonders for detonation suppresion, cooling and octane boosting on forced induction engines. Now water/alki and nitrous hasnt been as widely researched and the people that have arent talking about it, i've talked to Rodney from Alcohol Injections Systems about it and this is part of what he answered me:
"Hi Rudy,
First of all let me say, running water methanol injection with nitrous is perfectly fine. We actually sell many systems to strictly nitrous users as it offers the benefit of increased octane while stabilizing the combustion process. This allows users to then run much less ignition retard while adding some extra safety to the motor at the same time."
The cons i see with running this kind of set up in N/A nitroused engine & water/alki injection would be tunning as it would run very rich since these systems are normally setted up for boost not nitrous and would need extensive tunning and scanning logging tools to get the proper A/F ratio when on the gas.
Try checking out all the alcohol/water injection at the following link: http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Tech-Articles/t7/articles.html
Rudy.
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Nice one thanks
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We tried on my brother's 55 drag car. 400 sbc with a baby blower and a cheater plate. It ran about .5 faster on the water/meth. It ran about 1.2 faster on the 150 shot, no water/meth. Next we tried both, it went slower on both than it did with neither. So we put in the 250 jets to do some "real intercooling" and got her in the 10's. Our theory was the cold temps of the nitrous don't let the methanol give up it's latent heat of vaporization, and we were drowning out the motor. Maybe we should have dialed back the water after reading the previous posts.
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Sorry to dig up such an old post but FYI water alone works great with nitrous injection. I don't consider something that delivers more power to be a band aid by any means. While methanol as twice the level of latent heat as gasoline, water has four time the latent heat of methanol. That means cooler combustion temps during those long hard nitrous assisted pulls between the four and the five mile. Cooler combustion temps mean you can run more timing and more nitrous to make more power. Sound good to me. :mrgreen:
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And here all this time I thought I was supposed to inhale before going down the track. The nitrous goes in the motor?
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Its Acually strange this topic should crop up again i was thinking about it the other day,The ideaI had goes something like this a three branch fogger jet with room for three jets,A container that can be filled with the water and sealed,A balloon of some description maybe one used in a nitrogen gas shock or piston on top or in the water,and a branch of the N2O after the solenoid to Inflate Ballon or push piston ,Fire the Nitrous the water is pushed into the jet at high pressure and can be regulated at the jet without the need for another pump.I aint got time to do it for this year but i do think that if I had more time and room on the bike it is certainly going to be a big help!
I suppose I better blow the dust of my CAD programes and get crackin eh!
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In spite of the fact that I believe water is a band-aid, I actually favor it for nitrous engines. When we boost an engine, we are bringing in atmosphere with the extra oxygen. So when we combust the extra fuel and oxygen vs. normally aspirated we have more working gas (nitrogen) to absorb the heat.
Not so with Nitrous. If we add nitrous and the correct amount of fuel we are adding MUCH more heat than working gas to absorb it. In this case, I would advocate adding water injection specifically to increase the percentage of working gas, and increase cylinder pressure and power for a given amount of heat.
I explained this in more detail on the Ricardo thread, please read it there I can't bring myself to do a cut-and-paste!
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Sorry to dig up such an old post but FYI water alone works great with nitrous injection. I don't consider something that delivers more power to be a band aid by any means. While methanol as twice the level of latent heat as gasoline, water has four time the latent heat of methanol. That means cooler combustion temps during those long hard nitrous assisted pulls between the four and the five mile. Cooler combustion temps mean you can run more timing and more nitrous to make more power. Sound good to me. :mrgreen:
Can you explain in simple terms what "latent heat" means?
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Sorry to dig up such an old post but FYI water alone works great with nitrous injection. I don't consider something that delivers more power to be a band aid by any means. While methanol as twice the level of latent heat as gasoline, water has four time the latent heat of methanol. That means cooler combustion temps during those long hard nitrous assisted pulls between the four and the five mile. Cooler combustion temps mean you can run more timing and more nitrous to make more power. Sound good to me. :mrgreen:
Can you explain in simple terms what "latent heat" means?
Rodknox
Latent heat in simple terms means how much heat a liquid requires to change to a gas, for example water evaporating in hot supercharged air will lower the temperture due to its latent heat of evaporation. Thats why supercharged engines using methanol don't need intercoolers because of the greater latent heat of evaporation compared to gasoline.
JL222
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ah on the subject of supercharging,?I am supercharging the wifes Jawa it is running or should i say will be running methanol with 20% nitro, it is currently running 15-1 which will be too high i imagine what is optimum ratio any idea?
cheers oz
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I have to apologize in advance but I don't know which ratio you're referring to. AFR? Compression ratio? Ratio of 2 stroke oil to gas? Ratio of old guys to young guys at an SCTA event? Mind clarifying?
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Compression ratio of 15-1
Ooops
and its a four stroke motor!
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A 15:1 compression ratio sounds a bit high for boost. In a watercooled four cylinder auto application I've seen CRs as high as 11:1 boosted to 20+ psi with methanol. I want to say I've even heard of a boosted 14:1 Honda motor but I guess things like your cam profile will ultimately decide your dynamic compression ratio. I don't think there is a certain right answer here because your tune will also greatly affect your detonation threshold.
I really shouldn't even be trying to answer this. Where's LeFevers at?
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i thought that may be the case i reckon i will drop it to 10-11 to 1 or maybe even 12 to 1 and throw a bit of water in for good measure
cheers oz