Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Larry C on December 19, 2007, 08:22:46 PM
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I'm a little slow on the up-take but I was just looking at the records for 07 and realized that our old sidecar record for SC/G was broken (clobbered!) this year at world of speed. Congratulations to John Stege. I am very proud to have been part of the team ,headed up by builder and mentor Bob Bakker, that set the old record in 1990. That particular bike is now in the Barber collection in Alabama. Seventeen years is a good run for a record, John I hope yours lasts as long.
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John's scooter was purpose built and put up numbers above 200, not bad for a stock motor, says a lot for his streamlining of his sidecar outfit. He needed a taller gear, he was on the rev limiter in 6th :-o on his over 2 run, I was downtrack listening..... :-D 8-)
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was it a Bub record breaker?
any one got a pix of it?
kent
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Kent, he was at WOS, nice guy, Slim, did you get a picture?
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No, I didn't. I teched the bike, though. 'Busa motor in a purpose-built rig -- a kneeler, it was, with auto-style tires front and rear (and I don't remember what he had for #3 tire).
I remember him coming to inspection and explaining it would be his first run on the new bike. Then he qualifies and comes to impound with a "How the heck did that happen?" look on his face. Next morning he backs it up (I think the return was even faster) and then he's in impound and has Stainless "recommended" to help him with the teardown (you're welcome, Robert).
He spent hours and hours in impound -- I remember because his trailer was right in front of where I was stationed, and he blocked my view of the track all dang day.
But still, No, I don't have a photo.
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GREAT John, for getting our old record....after all that is what LSR is all about...........I just love the way "you all" now define some of the sidecar as
"purpose build rigs" is that make the bold- on- units "wheels on a stick".
Certainly would like to see a picture of John's
"purpose build rig"....................................................
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I done picture from John, very nice guy and his wife is great, too.....She said, when I meet John 35 years ago he runs side car races, he crashed the bike during the race and I married him.......no comment to this.
By the way, this thing was going like hell and I gave the bike the name....No Brain No Pain........kneeing at 200 mph......
Picture, did someone need them by purpose or just here on the website....I can reduce the datasize and can download the picture here if you like them. Please let me know.
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Bak, when I said "purpose-built" I was referring to the fact that this is not a motorcycle adapted to sidecar duty, nor a racing sidecar rig adapted to lakes racing -- but rather a rig designed and built for one and only one venue.
Perhaps all sidecar land speed entries are similarly "purpose-built" -- in which case I guess my addition of the moniker is superfluous. But this one sure as heck wasn't a "wheel on a stick" design.
I hope Pork finds and posts a photo.
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here the picture
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another one
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one more
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Good looking outfit, I must admit that this is where the rules begin to blur between streamliner and sidecar. I noticed that this bike was originally listed in results as a SC/S and somewhere along the line got changed. In my opinion there should still be an Altered class for purpose built machines like this, I think that this would "clear up" the blur. I would think that was the original intention of the rules years ago before the Altered class was eliminated. Having said that, a great accomplishment by John Stege.
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Many thanks for the pictures, PorkPie...... it looks like a outstanding LSR sidecar with great Aero.
I am looking foward in seeing the outfit in person in the future.
One very interesting point that a noted from the pictures is that the rules must have changed.....
John ran World Finals...right? that is under SCTA/BNI rules.....right? When I asked BNI Tech. if I could build a LSR sidecar with the driver kneeling INSIDE the outfit.....I was told....NO WAY.
The rule regarding being able to see the rider from the side (except for forearms) was also being enforced on sidecars........if the driver kneeled inside the outfit it became a streamliner
that would require a roll-cage and belts.......so tell me Slim....seeing as you Teched the outfit.....
have the rules been changed???
I should note that the BUB sidecar rules for 2007
DO allow the driver inside the outfit.
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Just to clarify - the first pictures shows John just after the start about ten yards away from the starting line - I done a picture from John when he done his 203 mph return run in the third mile.....still in this position......there is a reason why I called this sidecar No Brain No Pain.......
In other words - he didn't change his position and goes "inside" the bike - his body is full in the air....like a sit on bike.
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..............................John ran World Finals...right? that is under SCTA/BNI rules.....right?......................................
Kent, he was at WOS, nice guy, Slim, did you get a picture?
Sum
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Thanks for the info. PorkPie............I have been told time and time again by the SCTA/BNI people
that if the sidecar driver kneeled inside the outfit it was not safe.....due to the fact the driver
would not be able to exit the outfit if a mishap
occured..........(this is not correct, and the roadracers have proven that the driver can exit the outfit kneeling inside).
However, if you race with SCTA/BNI you play by their rules, I fully understand that..........................
So my question is still have the rules been changed????.......Or is this just "slip up" in Tech???
I understand at times this will occur.....what about impound.....did they also"slip up".................
We have raced with BNI for more then 25 years...
we are presently racing the BUB......but we do plan to return to BNI in the future with a new sidecar..........so what are the rules.........inside O.K...
or NO...............................................................................
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O.K......O.K. we are taking about WOS not WF....
right............so does the WOS people use the same rules as SCTA????????? They must because
the SCTA book shows their records........................
It is up to you Slim....explain it to me.......you did the Tech. (you so stated earlier)
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So my question is still have the rules been changed????.......Or is this just "slip up" in Tech???
Maybe neither. I'd say the slip up was telling you it wasn't OK. I don't suppose any of this was in writing, was it? You must be righteously pissed off.
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John's scooter was purpose built and put up numbers above 200, not bad for a stock motor, says a lot for his streamlining of his sidecar outfit.
I'll say. An all-out turbo motor should put 300 in the range of possibility. Yikes!
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No....none of it was in writing........just was told this is a safety issue......I asked several times over a period of years.............................................
This is somewhat like the problem Willie was having regarding making test runs at Elmo......
BUT.........this involves a RECORD...........................
There is a lot more involved.....WOS, shows one thing, and SCTA shows another.... regarding the speeds and records.............We are not taking anything away from the outstanding effort of John S......we are not really "pissed" off, we just want a level playing field.........................................
and have it explained to us...................................
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O.K. try to sort this out......................................
SCTA shows under Bonneville records 2008
SC/G 199.021
WOS shows under Bonneville records 2008
SC/G 172.222
SC/SG 199.021
I think all done with the same sidecar.........how can you go from SC/G to SC/SG (S being streamliner).............something does not match up
I hate to be a pain.....just want answers.............
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Man, has it been screwed up, and gets worse every day. ! :x
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Sorry....2007 records
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Obviously, the USFRA has not changed their SC/G record to the 199 when the SCTA did. The cert card is for SC/G. Bob, you know that SW, WoS and WF all run to the same rules.
The question is to the tech group that inspected, "I did it for safety only" is not a valid excuse, and the impound people. More than likely the same. Once again, agitating on a message board without going directly to the source will not result in an answer. We all know that "official" responses will not receive air on a message board.
Welcome to my world Jon,
DW
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Bak, as I recall, an SCTA inspector certified the record. The bike made a record around the high 170s, on the short course and qualified for the long course during the back-up run. He ran the long course and went faster, 190s first run, 200s on the back up.
A couple of years ago the sidecar rules changed in scta. Wink built a rig to the new rules and did well as I recall.
I asked several folks if it was a streamliner and was told no, anything with an unrestricted exit was not a streamliner, no rules on what you could or could not see. Reread the rule book, I have not, but I will after I finish typing this... 8-)
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DW, many thanks for your post.........the thing that somewhat concerns me that if the USFRA
runs under SCTA rules and the records go into the SCTA/BNI book......if I want to up a record
run USFRA (they are easy) and get it in the SCTA/BNI book.......does not seem right!!
Again congrats to John S..........but his sidecar would not have past SCTA/BNI Tech. ..........
unless of course there are "new" rules.....either writen and/or verbal................................................
O.K this is my last post on this subject......no need to beat a "dead horse"...., Dan thanks for your input.
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As an intrested side(car) liner. I would like to see a level set of rules for all classes of LSR, but that would be a lot to ask I'm guessing. Regardless of the various rules of construction I will build to the best safety rules to ensure my survival if it all goes wrong during my attempts. The fact is that the reason for rules should be the safety of the racers and the spectators first and then the leveling/fairness of the classes. That last bit has been a sticky spot. I would love to see the unification of LSR rules, but could the various org. bodies check the egos at the door and build a better mouse trap? Time will tell..... In the mean time I'll build it for the "day after" so I can do it again. What is it about that stretch of salt? :-)
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Bak
I re-read the sidecar rules, 7.I.
John's sidecar fits what I read,
For those concerned about USFRA, scta has inspectors there to certify the records, USFRA inspection is not easier, they just seem happy to have you race at their meet. I always enjoy the USFRA folks and their events.
Everyone
Go read the rule book, look at the pictures and decide for yourself.
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Bob the way i read them rule thingys...that hack would be legal...i think he would have been able to exit without restriction...ya commin down next week?
kent
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Looks like a quick trip to B-Ville is in order..
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you guys must have a different rule book than i have willie buchta
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Having to get up to get out is not unrestricted and will fail the test of a legal challange when somebody is hurt.
How is it any different than an open top roadster without suitable driver containment and appropriate safety features ?
Open, and frank public discussion is the best avenue for identifying this type of problem for everybody and not just a singular answer that serves only the individual.
Motorcycle Tech participation on this board was terminated, not with a mistake that can be corrected, but a lie that was challenged. :x
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My rule book on page 110 7.H under streamliner says quote "A streamliner is a motorcycle designed so that it is not possible to see the complete rider in the normal riding position from either side or above." Therefore the vehicle in question could not run in the sidecar class unless it was a sidecar streamliner. In which case it would not be legal for that class either. No roll cage no fire system etc. etc. etc. End of story.
Willie Buchta
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I thought we were talkin about sidecars here willie.... why are you reciting lines from the streamliner discription....... read and reread the sidecar rules closely... do you see anything about rider visability.....Jack brought up a very good asumption that having to "get up" could be considered restrictive... one could also argue that having to lift your leg and swing it over your seat would also be restrictive.... my thought is that if you could "shed" yourself from a crashing machine instead of being trapped it would be legal... in the case of the red hack, the riders area looked to me to be pretty clean and i think if it flipped it would probably launch the rider pretty easily.... so what I think Jack and Bob are saying is if I showed up with my LCR styled hack it wont be legal..?...Hummmmm, i'll have to check into it.....
kent
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9/13 997 JOHN STEGE STEGE, JOHN SC/G 1350 173.8020 170.6420 172.2220
9/15 997 JOHN STEGE STEGE, JOHN SC/SG 1350 194.8150 203.2270 199.0210
This is the cut out from the official USFRA website record list.....the bike didn't change and also to John he didn't make a class change.
Looks for me to a typing error.....the USFRA is a very small group of people who runs this meet, so things can happened. Question is now...what's correct....may be Slim can find out.
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In the early DAZE, a roll bar was a feature like a towel bar on the floor that you held onto, while the vehicle went over.
Seat belts were not in common use in Sprint Cars either.
The thought was, in a crash, if you were lucky, you would be thrown clear.
Getting lucky has a higher failure rate than getting smart.
Think about the often quoted phrase "Sticking your neck out".
It is often said that "Rules were meant to be broken", but bear in mind, that SAFETY RULES were written as a direct result of the broken, and sometimes dead.
If the rules have been bastardized beyond smart, well there ya go. :x
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9/15 997 JOHN STEGE STEGE, JOHN SC/G 1350 194.8150 203.2270 199.0210
This is the correct record. No need to upset Jon anymore than necessary.
DW
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9/15 997 JOHN STEGE STEGE, JOHN SC/G 1350 194.8150 203.2270 199.0210
This is the correct record. No need to upset Jon anymore than necessary.
DW
Yep that was his final record at the end of the meet, as was said before, nice work, nice scooter, nice folks.... 8-)
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9/15 997 JOHN STEGE STEGE, JOHN SC/G 1350 194.8150 203.2270 199.0210
This is the correct record. No need to upset Jon anymore than necessary.
DW
Yep that was his final record at the end of the meet, as was said before, nice work, nice scooter, nice folks.... 8-)
.............. and I bet he sure wishes he could have gone .979 mph faster. Who got closer to 200 Stainless him or your boy?? I just looked at the 200 MPH club site and it is kind of closed right now, so I have a question. If someone ran 200.000 and set a record doing it would they be in the 200 MPH Club or do they have to exceed 200.000??
I was going to read those MC rules like you told us to, but they give me a headach everytime I try :cry:.
c ya,
Sum
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Tom Elrod got into the 2 Club with a speed of exactly 200.000.
They set their own minimums for each appropriate class, unlike SCTA.
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O.K....Jon, is off the hook......I understand Tom Evans was also involved in the Tech. inspection....
and if Tom made the decision that John S could get out and away from the outfit if a mishap
occured..............that is good enough for me..........
Tom has been doing Tech. inspections on our
sidecars for more than 20 years and he understands what they are about..........................
Now that the paper work has also been resolved........our congrats to John S on a outstanding record..................................................
To Kent you being a M/C Tech committee person
.....can we run a Windle outfit (like a LCR)
BUB allows them!!!!!!....................................................
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my inital thought is yes "BUT" i'm speaking from the bottom of the list.... i will thow it up the list a few notches and hope to have a answer for ya when ya come down next week...
kent
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i was talking about sidecars kent--the streamline motorcycle class is for bikes that the driver (rider) cant be seen from both sides and above--seems to me that not being able to be seen from the side would put you in the streamline class --if you dont think it does where do you think the line in the rules are drawn --dont forget i run a sidecar bike and im building my wife one for 08 and its not to late to change her bike --her bike will have some streamlineing but she will be able to be seen from left and right side except fore arms and hands and from above except legs feet hands and forearms and have unrestricted exit (as much as possible on a lay down bike )i have ridden most every kind of contrapion and i think that the kneeling bike is probibly as safe as a lay down bike (im talking about sidecar bikes here) i try to plan for the worst but hope for the best so far so good -- willie buchta
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As much as it pains Sum and the rest of us, read it again Willie (just section 7.I). Sidecar is a stand-alone class. It is not part of A, M or P, it is wide open. Just read the 2 sidecar pages, it even addresses sidecar streamliner. You can make Sheri's bike a fully (almost) streamlined outfit, just allowing unrestricted exit if you choose.
Sum, Kid was .977 and for info, I encouraged him to run it again, there was time, told him we could find a larger drive sprocket to get him off the limiter, he said he had already far exceeded his goal and was done for the year...
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Some of you have seen the video of the "mishap"
we had with our outfit back in 2002.........and it shows that Larry C (driver) had no problem getting off the outfit as it was going up-side-down......there is almost no restrictions when riding in a kneeling position.........if riding inside a tub (depending on the fairing)it could possible be a problem........the roadracing outfits like the LCR ,Windle, RSR, ........if and when they flip-over
most times the passenger gets thrown clear, and the driver stays with the outfit.....ducking down inside the fairing......................................................
P.S. Stainless, is right the sidecar class is a stand alone class, just like I noted in one of my earlier post regarding foot-pegs.....it has nothing to do with solo, P, M. A. . When I wrote the first rules back in th 1970's for sidecars I made it a point to keep it as open as possible....
Example: dustbin fairings.......safety was my only concern........and (thank goodness) it is still a class
that allows inovation......Example: John S record setting sidecar................................................................
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..........................Sum, Kid was .977 ..........
That is 1/100 of one percent under 200 mph (http://www.cybergifs.com/faces/cry2.gif), but I guess you already knew that,
Sum
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hope the tech guys have the same attitude in may but will plan for the worst ---------- willie buchta
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If the same entry was run as a 2 wheeled bike, would it be considered in compliance with respect to rider egress ?
I am not talking about aerodynamic features but rider safety.
Where is the logic in that ?
You are only kidding yourself. :roll:
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If the same entry was run as a 2 wheeled bike, would it be considered in compliance with respect to rider egress ?
I am not talking about aerodynamic features but rider safety.
Where is the logic in that ?
You are only kidding yourself. :roll:
If a silhouette of the rider were cut out of the sides of the body, making it legal per (the moment's) APS rules, do you really think that would be any safer?
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like bob said sidecar is a pretty open class --i think what you have to get through in tech is unrestricted exit --im 62 years old been riding since i was a kid i just cant kneel on my motorcycle im a throw your leg over it kind of guy --ive changed my mind before im in the middle of building the wife a bike when im done ill build myself a new bike for 08 --kneeling streamlineing something to think about--------willie buchta
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If the same entry was run as a 2 wheeled bike, would it be considered in compliance with respect to rider egress ?
I am not talking about aerodynamic features but rider safety.
Where is the logic in that ?
You are only kidding yourself. :roll:
If a silhouette of the rider were cut out of the sides of the body, making it legal per (the moment's) APS rules, do you really think that would be any safer?
The objective is to be able to part company with the bike without any more effort than letting it go out of your hands.
If a deliberate action is required when things are beyond your ability to control them, you are stuck with the results.
That understanding is important to both the riders and the persons charged with the responsibility to inspect it.
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Boy.....Oh, Boy......I really Hate to admit it.............
but Jack is right again!!!!!.........................................
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Boy.....Oh, Boy......I really Hate to admit it.............
but Jack is right again!!!!!.........................................
SPEED SECRET :
Being surrounded with people that really know, really helps me . :wink:
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quote from jack d
The objective is to be able to part company with the bike without any more effort than letting it go out of your hands.
If a deliberate action is required when things are beyond your ability to control them, you are stuck with the results.
That understanding is important to both the riders and the persons charged with the responsibility to inspect it.
sorry parting company with a 2 wheel bike has never been a problem for me --i must admit though sometimes i get a little uncomfortable with the sidecar rig --ive always said if something goes wrong "just jump off" not so easy to do on a lay down sidecar bike --if you look at my bike you will see no obstructions behind me just a nice smoothe freshley waxed fender willie buchta
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AMEN....................................
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Easier to do on a "open" Kneeler.............Right Larry............................................................................
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Something that is often overlooked is the foot peg.
If it will not hinge away to allow you past it, you have the potential to snag a body part and go along with the upset ride until it decides to turn you loose.
Ask the guy that got off so bad at EM when he caught his loose pant leg the second time he fell off and wasn't as lucky as the first time the previous month. :wink:
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If the same entry was run as a 2 wheeled bike, would it be considered in compliance with respect to rider egress ?
I am not talking about aerodynamic features but rider safety.
Where is the logic in that ?
You are only kidding yourself. :roll:
I agree with Jack on this. I can't see why the rules for a sidecar and a 2 wheel bike should be any different in this regard.
Ease of egress for the rider in the event of a mishap should be the same for both types of vehicle. If the rules do not align they need to be corrected.
The only reason I can see for the sidecar rules to be "looser" would be if sidecar riders were deemed to be more expendable.
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acording to my rule book footrests (footpegs) arnt required on a sidecar bike willie buchta
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Most if, not all, the SCTA/BNI M/C Rules have been in the past and possibly the present
interpreted by the "eye of the beholder"
(the Tech inspector) in the past, as I recall, there was no "check sheet" now there is a check sheet....
making it somewhat easier for the racer to know what is required.............being a inspector is a thankless job (been there, done that) and at times the "help" inspectors are new to the sport....and do not know what they are looking at.......except for Tom Evans there has been a heavy rotation of inspectors in past years.....they "Burn Out" which we can all understand.....so it all falls back on Tom, and I for one have gotten a few times on Tom's case.....one time to the point Tom told me "shut up or you are off the salt" Tom was right...I overstepped......bought Tom a bottle of scotch
that night and gave it to him next morning. Sorry Tom.....I think ALL the people on the M/C
Tech. commitee should be working M/C Tech with Tom, if it cut's into your race time....then get off the commitee....simple as that!!!!!!
It is a lot easier at the BUB, no committee.....one FIM Steward......one AMA Steward....and they have been open to "suggestions" The final decision is with the promotor presenting the event, after all he puts up the money ........................simple............................
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It is a lot easier at the BUB, no committee.....one FIM Steward......one AMA Steward....and they have been open to "suggestions" The final decision is with the promotor presenting the event, after all he puts up the money ........................simple............................
Since I am new to the sport, you will have to give me a pass if I'm not understanding what you are saying here. I have only raced under SCTA/BNI rules so far. As I built my bike (following the SCTA tech inspection sheet), I could see that most of the inspection points were saftey related. From your statement above, it appears to me that the final say in BUB inspection lies with the one who writes the checks???
It may be my inexperience talking here but, that does not seem to contribute to the SAFEST event.
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Today Denis Manning has not been involved in any "problems" in Tech. They have all been handled by the FIM Steward and/or AMA Steward
(these are paid professionals) and I certainly do not see anytime in the future that would require Denis's input.........Regarding, a safe event.....it is a very well done Tech. inspection........but for example FIM and AMA stand on tires is up to the person riding the bike. They recommend to use speed rated tires for the speed of your bike,
but it is left up to you....................... The rules use the KISS system...(.Keep It Simple Stupid)
Come and race the BUB in 2008 and find out for yourself....................................................................
P.S. And, Yes, Dustbin Fairings are allowed on Solo Bikes (just make sure the wind is down, before you run.....again it is up to you,,,no one holding your hand) ......INNOVATION ALLOWED.........................................................................
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I think Randy gets it. :wink:
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Speaking of tires are the m/c guys using a hard or soft compound?
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Given a choice, and with all other things being equal , a harder compound will generate less heat, and that is the major cause for failures.
A used tire that has been broken in will do better with respect to the bond from he tread to the casing, and that is the first place a failure can be seen as a bubble, then a chunk missing. . :wink: