Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials General Chat => Topic started by: landracing on September 20, 2007, 11:56:11 AM
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First, This post is referring to the BUB International Meet ONLY.
Second, This posting is for suggestions for streamlining the BUB meet operations. (ramblings, bitches without a solution WILL BE Deleted from this posting) Good points about meet, and bad points with solutions is what this post is about.
Third, some pre-information before you post.
-BUB meet is in Forth year, they don't have it all figured out yet. They are open to suggestions to be considered.
-They LACK volunteers to help with the meet.
-BUB runs opposite directions for records, so that complicates the running of the meet.
-BUB has grown, first event probably about 50 entries, now completing its forth year had 350 entries for the event.
When posting a suggestion, please put entry number on the post, this way we can better filter out the information. If you haven't been to the event then I would assume it would be hard to comment on the running of the event. However, would like to encourage people to post. If the post can't be constructive it will be deleted. We already assume, that the event has problems, so it doesn't need to be stated again in a one liner, unless you have a solution to go with it.
Also don't be afraid to post the positives about the event.
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Ok, ill start with one to get this going.
Entry #209
It is already known, that the meet is understaffed. It has grown to be a very large meet with about 350 entries this year. Staffing is huge problem and they need some people to help. Course stewards, impound area, pre-stage area, staging area can all use the help.
I suggest that, if you enter the event with an entry, you are REQUIRED to have one person from your team, do 1 Four hour duty during the meet. The event is 5 days long. If you have for example 100 entries that gives you 100 volunteers by the number of days, is 20 people each day. (7am-11am, 11am-3pm, 3pm-7pm) The full time volunteers at the event, would be in charge of scheduling. You don't show up for your duty, you don't get to run at the event. And you don't get thru Tech inspection without having someone scheduled for a duty.
I don't know how many people are needed each day for the event. But it would seem to me that in the proposed above situation, which is based on 100 entries, would be a huge assistance in the running of the event.
Jon
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Jon - Entry # 567 and 5671. Baling wire racing.
This year was my first to go to BUB, so that is all I have to go on. But I have 5 SCTA races to compare it to, as well as other racing events.
By far the main complaint that racers had were the long waits. At the start of the meet, they said their goal was to run a bike every 3 minutes, but that was far from reality.
The main problem from my point of view was how the staging for the short and long course was organized. They had two lines (bikes on trailers and bikes by themselves) going to one portal where the staging official had his list in hand with the lineup. Since the line of trailers and bikes stretched for 1/4 mile through the pits, you had to be standing near the official with the list to hear him call your number. When he did, you had to run back to your bike or trailer, manage to get out of line and maneuver through the tight pits and get to the starting line. This made for a big traffic jam and road rage. There was NO radio communication, everthing had to be done in person by running back and forth.
My suggestions:
Eliminate the list of names. Just have one lineup OUTSIDE of the pits. First come first served.
Have Two-way radio communication with officials.
Space the pit rows farther apart.
Use the RWB course for record entries too. No sense in having one course empty and one jam packed.
Run same direction for record return runs.
Don Pearsall
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Don,
Good info. And your points well taken.
I will tell you that the two way opposite run operation will NOT ever be changed. This is FIM/AMA sanctioned event and it required for a record.
The pre-stage lanes are a huge issue.
Clutter in the pits, clutter at pre-stage, clutter outside of pits and most definitely needs to be changed.
I agree two lines one short, one long and staging somewhere else other then the pits.
I would suggest that the pre-stage lanes be down the course on return road. Then you would move up to the staging area from there. This gives single file lines, organized and not congesting the pits or the area in front of the pits. This also resolves the "List".
I think that the pre-stage area in the pits was intended for canopy shelter for the riders who do not trailer their bike. Well, I say that it's not up the Event organizers to provide shade. It's the entries decision to ride to and from the lines. You had to get your race bike there somehow, and you have your own vehicles, provide your own shade when waiting in pre-stage. When you are moved from Pre-Stage to the staging point then have a canopy there while you are running the bikes. Im sorry but it just doesn't work with the setup they have now in prestage. Trailer or tow to the pre-stage area, then your rider can meet you back in the pits or impound area after the completion of their run.
Jon
Jon
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John
thanks for making this post...
I didn't go and have never been to a Bub event so i don't have personal experience. But i will say from past experience with volunteers they are both a necessity they can be an obvious problem. even the SCTA in there 50+years of events has volunteer problems. There is a vast difference between "a" volunteer and a "qualified" volunteer. Forcing the entrant to send there 12year old kid to work the staging lanes will not help...and it will happen. The solution is "qualified" volunteers, and you do that with very detailed "WRITTEN" instructions for there assigned duties. They must completely understand what is expected of them. Do not write these instructions as you would understand them because you would probably be the only one that would understand them. Write them so a 3rd grader would understand them, do not treat them as a they have a 3rd grade mentality, just written out in simplistic and through language so as to not be self interpreted as they read it. Secondly, selection of volunteers to job duties can be tricky and takes monitoring there performance. If you have a V that is brow beat and give him a badge of authority you can some times create a Hitler. You will be lucky if you assign an duty that fits the person. To identify a v problem you need a race director that floats from station to station to observe performance. And my last suggestion is a mandatory riders meeting every morning to get total feedback daily and a mandatory V meeting nightly, again for feedback. You may find that switching an V assignment will help things
kent
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Entries # 1987 & 331
The main problem from my point of view was how the staging for the short and long course was organized. They had two lines (bikes on trailers and bikes by themselves) going to one portal where the staging official had his list in hand with the lineup. Since the line of trailers and bikes stretched for 1/4 mile through the pits, you had to be standing near the official with the list to hear him call your number. When he did, you had to run back to your bike or trailer, manage to get out of line and maneuver through the tight pits and get to the starting line. This made for a big traffic jam and road rage. There was NO radio communication, everthing had to be done in person by running back and forth.
I agree 100%. The three-line, list based system is simply not workable. It needs to be abandoned. This was the biggest problem at the meet, that I saw.
Eliminate the list of names. Just have one lineup OUTSIDE of the pits. First come first served.
+1
This is the single biggest thing they could do to solve the issues.
Don't segregate based on long or short course, or whether or not the person has a tow rig. Don't keep a "list", it accomplishes nothing except to aggravate people.
The only fair way to do it is one line for everyone, first come first served. Simple, effective, and fair.
Space the pit rows farther apart.
+1
It was much too congested. Even if you eliminate the tow rig line snaking through the pits, it was too congested. There's no reason not to use more room.
Additional suggestions:
Lay out the impound such that people can have their support vehicles closer to the teardown area. The farther we have to park our trailers & toolboxes from the teardown area, the longer it takes us to do our work.
Prepare two courses, side by side, and halfway through the meet, switch courses. They did this at World of Speed and it really helped. The course deteriorates badly and gets more dangerous as the event goes on. A second course that can be easily and quickly switched to, because it's right up next to the first course, enhances everyone's safety.
At WOS they did the switch overnight. The next day, we had roughly an hour delay is all before we were running again. The new course was noticeably smoother, at least for awhile.
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I agree two lines one short, one long and staging somewhere else other then the pits.
I couldn't disagree more strongly with this suggestion.
In fact, this is basically what was happening, and it was a HUGE source of discontent. Long course bikes (of which there were very few) were running over and over. The short course line was longer and had a much longer wait. The tow rig line was even longer and we were really getting screwed.
One line. Short, long, riding or towing, it doesn't matter, you get in that line and you go in order.
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Let me tell you about something that happened, Jon.
The MV Augusta was running the long course and making lots of runs, while the rest of us waited.
The uninformed PA/Radio announcer made a comment to the effect that the MV Augusta had made so many runs, and that showed that if a person had his act together and got in line in a timely manner and was ready to go, the line wasn't bad and things were running efficiently.
A number of people about came unglued when they heard that comment.
What it really showed is how messed up the system was.
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Kent,
I couldn't agree more on your post about a body to fill a position, and a qualified person.
would have to be 18years or older, I see the point you were giving.
What I kind of envisioned in the Volunteer proposal. Is that BUB would have one of their dedicated workers overseeing a station. Like on allocation of a dedicated worker, overseeing an area, like course stewards. They would report to that dedicated worker, and he would place them and see they were doing their job.
Again a entry volunteer report to pre-stage and staging area to see the Dedicated worker, and he would assign the task of single file lines and getting people ready to move up to staging etc etc.
Again a entry volunteer report to the sales trailer or registration trailer and see the dedicated worker there who would assign the simple tasks to help them out.
Jon
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Aaron,
Ok, then a solution that can be proposed would be run 10 short course vehicles, then run 10 long course vehicles.
this is something BUB internally will have a figure out. BUT, it is simple. There are tons more short course vehicles then long course vehicles.
That is why I think there should NOT be a combined line for long and short. Most obvious is long course vehicles start and additional two miles back. Their line should start in a separate pre-stage area down at the 0 mile marker. Short course pre-stage starts at the 3 mile marker. Then you run 10 and 10 as the line sees fit. Typically the long course line only has a few vehicles compared to short course lines. And this is done only because of the layout of the track, and where a long course and short course vehicles start from.
Both long and short both deserve the right to run, but why penalize the long course vehicle for being faster. The lines would be shorter and you would probably get more runs in the meet if you were a long course vehicle, due to the shorter lines. Want more runs, make your bike faster to qualify for the long course.
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Aaron,
Ok, then a solution that can be proposed would be run 10 short course vehicles, then run 10 long course vehicles.
this is something BUB internally will have a figure out. BUT, it is simple. There are tons more short course vehicles then long course vehicles................
Sorry I don't have an entry number and wasn't there this year (but was there last year as a lowly spectator 8-) ), so you might delete this Jon, but what you purpose 10 short, 10 long, 10 short, etc. would end up being just like this year in that you would see long course bikes run more often than those on the short course.
I think what Aaron is suggesting is like speed week this year where we came to the starting line in two lines that were mixed with long and short course cars/bikes for each course and they alternated back and forth. I know when they planned speedweek for this year it was suppose to be a short course car/bike then a long course car/bike and back and forth, but that didn't happen, at least as far as I could see.
I guess the problem is how do you be fair and yet start bikes from two different starting lines on the same course a couple miles apart. You can stage them in one line and send them to the two different starting areas, but then sending them down the track in the order they were in the original line is a problem, especially if someone has a problem and pulls over and lets a couple people past them.
I'll be back next year to see how it was all figured out :|,
"no bike number Sum" :cry:
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The method of running that was described soon after the first event would have solved the problem of who gets to run how many times and in what order.
It has worked before and the number of entries is not a factor, nor is your importance in the pecking order.
FIM with a 2 hour turnaround time was lengthened from 1 hour in part to accommodate just such a system.
The same calendar day ruling for AMA was never even considered until a suggestion from a long time competitor at the first event.
Now it has deteriorated to the point that it is beyond their abilities.
Written instructions are fine if you read them and also understand.
What written word or understanding determined that an oil change between runs was prohibited ?
What in the written rules allowed the black bike with the rider inside the body and the skids to run in APS class or at all ?
Just handing a book to a person in a Foreign language or just reading it to them won't get very far towards a useful understanding.
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What written word or understanding determined that an oil change between runs was prohibited ?
What in the written rules allowed the black bike with the rider inside the body and the skids to run in APS class or at all ?
Just handing a book to a person in a Foreign language or just reading it to them won't get very far towards a useful understanding.
jack,
Lets stay on topic about streamlining the meet, and help resolve the bottlenecks in running of the vehicles, your statements above are tech questions and do not pertain to this thread.
The method of running that was described soon after the first event would have solved the problem of who gets to run how many times and in what order. It has worked before and the number of entries is not a factor, nor is your importance in the pecking order.
Then post the method instead of just posting about it's existence.
Follow the format as I described in the first post, or be deleted from this point forward in this thread. want to welcome input from viewers. however it clearly states in first post, post your complaint and a solution.
Now why did I know that this was going to be an issue with you, and I already knew what you were going to post when I started this thread. And when I started it, I had to think of a way to keep you from posting your same boring rhetorical information, which we all have heard dozens of times with limited answers.
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Also another problem with wait in lines, was vehicles who were short course type of vehicles were running long course track, like at 140-150 mph. They utilized the full track up to 9 miles. This should not ever happen.
First off you should use same system as other sanctioning bodies use, that you need to be a 175 mph+ vehicle to run the long course. Period, no exceptions (except streamliners)
The other problem I heard about, was a short course vehicle running 130 mph (example) and running their vehicle down to the end of the course area at a slower speed. Would offer suggestion that the warning system be used. There is no reason why a vehicle running less then 175 mph cant get OFF the track to the return road in about a mile. Then once on return road they can take all the time they need to get down to the canopy area for short course vehicles. If a bike is abusing the system, or taking to long, pussy footing on the course at slow speeds they be tagged with a warning. Second time your done at the meet and can't run anymore.
The competitors that did this are just as guilty for holding up the meet as anybody else. Make your run, get OFF the track, so the next vehicle can go.
Jon
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Good day all.
This is a new voice for you to consider.
Lynn King #200 MPS, I WAS there, as a newcommer to the salt.
I'll try to put my sorted impressions in a readable order.
Understanding that this list has a time-out, I will post at least two posts.
Post one.
I had a great time. I waited in line a long time. I figured out how some were using the system. I did NOT
use the system, but I made sure the system didn't use me.
First off about the pit set up. I feel it was just fine. The problem...people started a third line down the
middle of the pits which caused crowding all arroud. The pre-stage was the bottleneck. I agree that it
should have been somewhere else. My suggestion, have the pre-stage set up on the other side of the
registration trailers near the fuel truck and extending in that direction. The "List" was the problem
because of how it was manipulated by stewards AND participants. The list should have been a large
white board. You tell the steward you are ready, he puts your name on it and it is raised up to a position
that can be seen from a distance. YOU keep track of yourself and show up ready to run as your name
comes up. Not being on time moves you to the end. No changes, no messing arround. Everybody gets
to watch the list. It's not kept in someones pocket.
The position of the pits was great! We were able to see each person as they went through the measured mile. How cool was it see some of your mentors fly by, as opposed to hearing there time as they went
down course four to six miles away.
I started my gear selection on the RWB course. On my second run, just before the two, we got into a
tankslapper at 150. Held throttle and shifted over to the outside and settled her down to finish the rum. Why is this important to this discussion? Cause the salt was getting beaten up by too much traffic on one side. As it turrned out this course got really beaten up through the event. I moved over to the short course after that. After a few runs on the short course, and waiting in line each day I had my mechanic
moniter the events and actions of the steward. He was being manipulated by fast talking, sudo-important people. He was being belittled and lied to. ASWRACING, I was next to you when you very
justifiably lost it. I was two bikes from going down to the short course staging. What did I see in regards
to things like this? Often times the steward was looking for a bike and rider. They may have been in their
truck/van waiting to be called and WAY down the staging line. The steward didn't go ALL the way down the
line looking for ya.....You got passed up. Sad, very sad for many riders.
End of post one.
More to follow........
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LynnK,
Welcome to the website, and thank you for your thoughts on info on the meet and the things that happened there thru your eye's as a first timer to the salt.
Keep the info coming.
Jon
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Ok, then a solution that can be proposed would be run 10 short course vehicles, then run 10 long course vehicles.
More than 90% of the vehicles are short course. So if you do this, you're giving the long course vehicles much, much, much more opportunity to run.
Both long and short both deserve the right to run, but why penalize the long course vehicle for being faster.
You're not penalizing them if you put them in the same line. You're giving everyone equal opportunity to run regardless of whether they're long or short.
The lines would be shorter and you would probably get more runs in the meet if you were a long course vehicle, due to the shorter lines.
That's exactly what happened. The way they were running it, since there were so many fewer people waiting for the long course, they got cycled through much faster. They could make multiple runs a day while those of us in the short course tow rig line waited 48 hours.
Want more runs, make your bike faster to qualify for the long course.
So you're proposing a system by which some get more opportunity to run than others. THAT'S exactly what I'm so emphatically opposed to. Everyone pays the same entry fee, everyone deserves the same opportunity to run.
If they intentionally make a system by which some get preference over others, I will not attend the event, it's that simple. In fact, the only way I'll go back at all if I believe they're putting something in place to give everyone equal opportunity, and I believe what they're doing will work.
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Aaron,
I see your point, so what you are saying it have everybody stage at like the short course start on return road, long or short all in the same line. Then when they need people they release lets say 10 vehicles, short course goes over to the staging area, and the long course vehicle travels down the 3 miles to the long course start. Start running those vehicles out of short course lets say there are 8 short and 2 long. Then when those 8 short vehicles go, then move onto the 2 long course vehicles. While the 2 long course vehicles are making their runs, pre-stage lets the next 10 vehicles goto staging area. Short course vehicles would be ready to run after the 2 long course bikes in previous group get done, and this allows enough time for next long course vehicles to get down to the long course start.
Is this what you are thinking?
Just trying to get a mental image, and I could see that working out.
jon
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Lynn King # 200 MPS
Post two
In regards to how many tracks to run. The problem, just ask the ACK machine or Valerie, or me.
Over use of the salt. The sulution, as has been stated before, multiple courses. The problem, the weather
wasn't kind to us this year. Dennis had his hands full just trying to keep up what we had. His crew did
a GREAT job with what they had to work with. 350 entrants showed up, 150 more than expected.
The volunteer thing is a tough one. I know that the Bub crew is fully aware and making plans for next year. The best we can do is support their decisions and offer all the help we can. Not being there and
criticizing the way it went seens a bit wrong to this old guy. I appreciate that this thread is here to suggest and make recomendations. Let's try to see that this info is not wasted on the choir and it gets
digested to a usuable form to be forwarded to those that CAN make a change.
Re: going too far down course, all riders were asked to exit as soon as practical. Most adheared, some
didn't. I'm sure it wasn't malichis. A warning would be in order. All under 150 on the RWB is OK too. But I
think the course would have hurt more people that way. Track conditions considered.
I thought the pre-stage and staging went OK, the problem was the mystery list. Suggestion made earlier.
From what I saw/heard, as a ham radio operator, the communications was not too bad. BUT we did need
a qualfied flight control officer running the tower.
I'll try to add more constructive thoughts as this thread evolves.
Thanks for reading,
Lynn King
Anacortes WA #200 MPS
Personal best 184, salt best 166.7
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...................Then when they need people they release lets say 10 vehicles, short course goes over to the staging area, and the long course vehicle travels down the 3 miles to the long course start. Start running those vehicles out of short course lets say there are 8 short and 2 long. Then when those 8 short vehicles go, then move onto the 2 long course vehicles. While the 2 long course vehicles are making their runs, pre-stage lets the next 10 vehicles go to staging area. Short course vehicles would be ready to run after the 2 long course bikes in previous group get done, and this allows enough time for next long course vehicles to get down to the long course start.
Is this what you are thinking?.....................jon
That would work, I think you got it figured out :-) ,
Sum
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The one thing to remember if this would be used sumner is, that some vehicles do tow to the line, some need prep time.
And let me fill others in on the procedure for prestage, stage and start.
The prestage is just where all the vehicles gather, then you are moved over to the staging area, which is a single ez-up area. This area is approx 50 yards from the course. when they are ready for a vehicle, they let the vehicle under its own power move to the course start, which for the short course is right on the course. Then they are released from there. Once that vehicle leaves, then the next vehicle can go over to that area and wait for the signal that they can start the run.
Now, there are some who tow their vehicles, and do not have a turning radius to go from staging to the start line, without making a very huge circle. Some need to unload on the start line, point their vehicle down the course and go.
These vehicles would be the last one of the groups of 10 to make a run. They should be able to goto the start line and start unloading, while they are running the other vehicles in the group.
If runs takes 3 minutes per run, and you have 8 people on the short course staging area, then a person who has to unload from trailer and was last one of that group to go, has effectively approx 20 minutes to be ready. More then enough time. I can unload my bike, put leathers on, put ice in intercooler tank, start the bike and be ready to run 5-10 minutes max. So there is ample time to do this.
Jon
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DELETED by Admin...
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I see your point, so what you are saying it have everybody stage at like the short course start on return road, long or short all in the same line. Then when they need people they release lets say 10 vehicles, short course goes over to the staging area, and the long course vehicle travels down the 3 miles to the long course start. Start running those vehicles out of short course lets say there are 8 short and 2 long. Then when those 8 short vehicles go, then move onto the 2 long course vehicles. While the 2 long course vehicles are making their runs, pre-stage lets the next 10 vehicles goto staging area. Short course vehicles would be ready to run after the 2 long course bikes in previous group get done, and this allows enough time for next long course vehicles to get down to the long course start.
Is this what you are thinking?
Why are you making a distinction between short and long? I see no reason.
The guy in control simply counts the total number of bikes staged at the start lines (short + long), without regard for how many are at which. Below some threshold, let's say 10, he directs that 10 bikes be released from pre-stage.
Those 10 leave pre-stage and go to the appropriate start line. Again, no distinction between short and long, the next 10 bikes leave pre-stage regardless of which course they'll be using.
Bikes run from either start line as they're ready.
When the total number of bikes staged drops down to 10 again, 10 more are released from pre-stage.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
No distinction at all as to which course a person is running. I don't see why it matters.
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Re-read what I put Aaron, I basically said the same thing, release 10 vehicles (as an example), I was using 8 short, 2 long as examples on how they would run the vehicles. NO distinction in the pre-stage line between long and short, but when released from there, they goto the appropitate line. yes. We are on the same page. The number may vary on long and short being released, but 10 vehicles whatever the combination, etc etc.
Jon
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#89 #189 #194 #1194
As most of you know I have been a very strong supporter of the all M/C BUB event since 2003.
In addition we have been a class sponsor since 2004. But I certainly agree that something has to be done to make the event a success in future years.
! One waiting line as noted before...................
2 Run smaller displacement bikes on the RWYB course.
3 Run bikes competing for AMA National Record
2 times..... ONE-WAY only .....(FIM both ways, to keep with International Rules)
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Bak,
Interesting thoughts on the AMA records.
Not only could you run them the same direction, like another sanctioning body does and no one questions the validity of those records, and you could run them the next morning also and start the day off with record returns. Or stop qualifying at a xx time at end of day, for record returns.
This brings up another issue, some participants who qualified on a AMA record, were NOT allowed to make a return pass in the same day because they ran out of time during the day.. This should NEVER happen, there should be ample time made that if you qualify for a record, you should be able to backup that record.
So if you have 20 vehicles who qualified during the day for a AMA record, and each takes 3 minutes to run, then you would need approx 1 hour to let them make a return passes. If you shut the qualifying down at 6 PM, no more qualifying that day, that should allow enough time to sundown to let them make return passes. The quit time of qualifying could be adjusted daily for the amount of qualifying bikes in impound. You could even make this work for return runs in opposite directions.
And I agree DO NOT change FIM standards for records. That would never happen anyways.
Jon
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Excellent points.
Part of the problem is that AMA rules consider you "qualified" if you run within 5% of the existing record. Now say you make a pass and come up a little short. What would you rather do, go make a backup pass even though you know you won't get the record, or get back in a line that takes all day to get through?
There were lots of unsuccessful backup passes going on while people waited. We did it ourselves.
That 5% rule ought to go away.
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So what do you purpose Aaron, that for a AMA record you must exceed the record by .001, to be qualified for a return run, like the other organizations do it? Sounds great.
Because of the limited time on the salt to actually race, this seems like a logical solution to help with that. A vehicle making a return run has already proved performance by exceeding the record on the qualifying run.
Alot of this is already known, and being used in a current platform, and has proven to work.
Jon
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This year, thanks to the BMW people, there appeared to be plenty of help...............but I counted at least 8 people working Tech......1 AMA steward........1 measure engine (Drew).......
and 6 standing around trying to read and understand the checksheets and rule book......
You don't need 2 people at the starting lines....1 with a HEADSET radio will do......1 person to run the staging lane, with a HEADSET radio is all that is required..........1 person on the pit PA that knows what he or she is doing.........1 person with a HEADSET radio for RWYB. staging.....use CB to get info. to the racers.........keep the rest of the help in the pits so they can rotate out.
Have LOOOOONG meeting with the Tech. inspectors prior to the event, to explain what they are looking at.....and explain the checksheet to them.........so I don't have to!!!!!!!!!!
And why do the pits, have to be in the measured Mile/Kilo (spectators....very few) ? Put the pits between the start of the long and short course with RWYB on the other side.....shorter drive from the "boat dock" .....shorter drive to the starting line.......................................
And this is a BIG ONE in my book, have Tech. make sure the bike that is presented to Tech is
rideable.........I know of at least one bike that took two people to get it pointed down the course,
and after making a run the rider could not clear the course untlll the crew showed up.......causing a long delay......................Tech. should be more than going by the "checksheet" End of Sermon B.B.
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Bob forgets the bikes run in both directions and are equal distance to the appropriate starting line from a position in the middle.
Prior to the recent BUB events, there was never a minimum speed required for 1 leg of a 2 way run for either FIM or AMA.
It was an AMA practice only during events hosted by SCTA to control the number of runs within the regular meet, and never FIM or FIA, except as a courtesy.
A 2 way average was all that was required within the same day for AMA and 2 hours from start to complete for FIM.
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NO, Bob did not forget, that s why he stated that AMA records should be made by running ONE-WAY only.................if running for FIM record (two-way) the racer has already spend LARGE amounts of $ (doctors,license enc) that the extra vehicle fuel used to go to the far side of the course should be of no problem.............................Touche.....
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Not at all, that single direction method has already been suggested to SCTA.
Along with it were suggestions also to spread the crush of record contenders across the whole running day and for certification also.
They have been doing something very much like it at 3 locations in the US alone now and SCTA has done it from the beginning at El Mirage.
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My only comment- and with GPS today it's probably not a factor- as long as the course is accurately surveyed and the timing apparatus is equally accurate.
Been NOT there with Drag Race timing systems many years past!
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#1194: Lots of really good ideas here. I like the idea of the one line fits all, bring your own shade. Been done since 1949 in August and works quite well. The pits this year were long and narrow due to the close proximity to the two courses, but what a time saver the second course was. Due to the afore mentioned shortage of working folks the pits got out of hand with the center line instead of against the barrier on the rwyb side. If we had a pit person to manage the trailers and vehicles it would be a huge help. The volunteer help is really key to a smooth running event, the BUB folks work there tails off. I also like running AMA record return runs in the morning. We had to make our return pass in the afternoon because we ran late. It was then or start again the next day and we ran in a much higher wind than I normaly would have (bit of a pucker factor in the mile!) And I did talk to some riders who did run out of time because of a late aftgernoon down run.
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#591 As Aaron and others have said, I see no reason for more then one pre-stage lane. One line, first come first served. The minimum for the long course needs to be policed better. Even at the riders meeting, held daily, there were discrepancies. But, that is the AMA. This was only my second trip to the salt, but, why not have the pre-stage line start at the 2. Then, all the short course bikes are there and the long course guys can move down to the 0. Someone correct me if I am wrong,but, I can think of no other form of drag racing, which is closest to what we are doing, that have to ride their bikes 3 miles to the starting line. If we have to ride 3 miles to the start line, how about at least dragging a path. Many of these bikes are ridgid, and that was not a pleasant ride on a ridgid. As I told the AMA Steward, if things don't change drastically I won't be back.
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Jon I think you have a good solution with your waves of 10 assorted short/long course bikes, but I have one suggestion.
Let's say you have your wave of 10 bikes lined up at the 0 mile and 2 mile. Behind them a hundred yards put a couple flags and send a second wave of 10 assorted long/short course bikes to line up behind those flags. While the first wave is running the second wave could be preparing.
When the first wave finishes running, move the second wave that has had time to prepare forward and replace them with a new wave of bikes lined up at the flagging a hundred yards behind the start.
They kind of moved us forward in stagging behind the start line at Speed Week this year in that manner, so I can't take any credit for this. SCTA has pretty well figured it out over the years :-) .
Hope this is clear,
Sum
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A short line should be the objective. Don’t get in line until shortly before your run. A line that makes you wait longer than 20 minutes is a waste of your time. Assign daily run groups (A, B, C, etc). Use the entry form to establish run order, first received, first run.
At the end of the first day you can put your name back in the hat for the next day. (Eliminates entries that are not going to run) Assign run order randomly for the next day. You would line up when your run group is called. Everybody has a CB, use it for communication.
Publish a list with the estimated time that a particular group will run. Just as an example: If the average run is 3 minutes then group B will be estimated to run between 9:45 and 10:30. Not a time table, but an estimate to help the competitor schedule his day. If you understand that there is no chance to run before 9:00, you may decide to fix the broken (fill in the blank). You don’t have to try to do it in line while pushing up.
El Mirage puts a mark on the inspection sticker when you make a run. No second run until everybody else has one run in.
The 5 percent rule means that a 175 mph vehicle can do a record run when he is almost 9 mph short of the record. The idea behind it is that if you run faster on the record run then the average would give you a record. The SCTA method of being faster than the record works well. If you are looking for middle ground then study all of the runs to see how many resulted in records and adjust accordingly.
I train Scoutmasters and have run large Scouting events. Volunteers have to be trained before they will be any good. A volunteer that just shows up expecting to work has no idea what the task is and is very likely to screw things up not because of lack of effort, but lack of information. Training the day before is best, or in the morning before anything else starts, even if that is really early. Give them written instructions for that job. Give them the names of the officials in charge and how to contact them for information. If someone misses the start of training then go away and come back when you have the time to do it correctly. Volunteers run the bell-shaper curve like everything else. If you don’t know their experience level then do a quick assessment and assign accordingly. If the person isn’t particularly quick on the uptake, then give them a simple job. Been there, done that.
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After what I saw, I really don't think a run group system would work. I think you'd have mass confusion again, misinformation, people not ready when called, others going when not called, etc etc. The more opportunity you create for things to get messed up, the more they'll be messed up.
I really think the system needs to be simplified, not made more complex.
A single line, first come, first served.
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Dean,
I would avoid the run groups you described like the plague. Remember El Mirage runs for points for season championships, and that is why they run in groups, I think is the reason.
Avoid at all costs at Bonneville. When your ready get in line.
Also the bikes in line are ready to run, they are not working on them, 98% of the time, that is because they are allowed to ride bikes to line and back. So if they are riding them they probably don't need much work if any if they are already in the line.
Jon
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I would think if the BUB people were to take a close look at the way SCTA/BNI run both El Mirage and Bonneville events it would be helpful, after all
SCTA has been doing Speed Trials since 1949.
Also very helpful would be the input from a form
like Landracing.com. We had 4 racers pre-entered
for this years event.......and only got to run 1...the sidecar.......there was no way to race the other bikes with all the problems at the event......next year, we plan to take 1 piece of equipment unless the BUB's can show us a improvement in their operation. I have strongly supported the BUB Trials in past years, but this years event showed that some drastic improvements need to be made
in the future, or they will lose my support.
Jon, also noted to post the plus-factors.........
the AMA Steward (Ken Saillant) and Drew (engine measurement) did a great job under difficult conditions.........also the BUB people worked very hard to give us the best race courses possible........
Denis Manning was out early in the mornings, dragging the courses with his pick-up...........sigh-up worked great and was fast..........
Tech. could stand some improvement but with Ken's and FIM Charlie's help it worked out O.K.
Hopefully, some of the input from this forum will be helpfull..........we all know that somethings have to improve or the event will lose support.
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Part of the reason the run groups can work at EM is because like a Drag Race, they are all in very close proximity and not spread out over miles in various directions, and with limited spaceit works for them..
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At WOS, they had us line up in two lines, short course on the left and long course on the right.
When they told us about the plan in the driver's meeting, with the memory of the Bub meet still fresh in my mind, I thought to myself oh no, this isn't going to work. There's going to be one short line and one long line and the folks running long course will get all the runs they want while everyone else waits.
But in the car world, it seems the ratio of short to long is much more even than it is for bikes. It's probably not 50-50, but not far off. With bikes it's more like 95-5 or something. So it actually worked out OK at WOS.
I would not, however, recommend that plan for the Bub meet. I think a single line is the only fair way to do it.
On supporting or not supporting the event, I've had one good friend and fellow event sponsor tell me point blank they won't be back. I personally haven't made any decision though. I have mixed feelings. I want it to work so badly, but I also want to go racing without aggravation. The contrast between the Bub meet and WOS was stunning. We had a fantastic time at WOS and thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing. That's the way it's supposed to be. It's no fun going racing if you're aggravated the whole time.
It's gonna come down to what they decide to do about the pre-stage mess and whether or not I think it'll work.
Most disappointing to me about the Bub meet was that my wife was so miserable. She hasn't come with me to an event since 2003, I finally got her to come along, and she was miserable. She told me point blank she won't come back next year. I lost a lot of husband points over the whole thing. She did come with me to WOS, though, and she set a decent record and had a good time, so hopefully I earned a few back.
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#6544
I wrote this and a couple others last night so, they may be redundant to topics posted today.
Topic: Prestaging (lists)
I had reasonable expectation that the list would solve some of the problems from last year. On the RWB side, I would say that it did for the most part. I would attribute that to the ability to treat the queue as one long line (per Aaron's suggestion). The list did help as the bikes lumped up vs. stayed in a line. So when they were placed into their particular group of five those being towed or hauled was less likely to be overlooked.
Two problems I saw with the list on that side (and heard anecdotally from the other side) were bikes being on the list but nowhere near the prestaging line or the rider off who knows where when it came time to make a run. This wasted efforts on the volunteer side as they tried to track down those bikes/riders, wasted time as vehicles had to find their way through the line to the front, and caused ill will as someone twenty back in line suddenly jumps up to the front.
There are some administrative problems with the list, but some standard formatting could rectify that to keep the FIFO order intact.
I agree there should be no distinction made within the queue between long and short course bikes at this time. I do however would not rule out that 'n' years from now that a ratio of long-to-short will be useful.
Topic: Getting into and to the head of the line (tied to list comments)
A proposed solution for that is to require the bike (with support vehicle if needed) and rider be on-hand at the time of sign up. If there is going to be some downtime the rider can go off have some lunch, take a nap, etc while a crew member baby-sits the bike in line. But once the bike advances to a given point, the rider must be within that area until sent down the line. At that time the bike and rider are placed into a group of five to ten. This would have the following occurring at prestaging: one group going to the start (really they are past prestage), another readying to go to the start, and another being assembled. (Batch processing in manufacturing vernacular)
The result is that the line would fairly represent the queue and the expectation of readiness would be promoted.
I'll address blending those riding with those using a support vehicle in a separate post, as well as some other proposals.
Paul
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#6544
Another one written last night.
Topic: Return runs
There were two big problems with this year's return runs: 1. not being able to make a back up run; 2. those making ‘return’ runs taking advantage of the rules to keep running without reentering the queue.
Barring bad weather, timing equipment problems, or lack of safety crew availability anyone making a qualifying run should have the opportunity to make their backup run during the event. Period.
To allow both FIM and AMA to meet there respective requirements, I'd propose three changes: 1. Replace the AMA 5%+/- qualifying run with a .001 mph over requirement (I can't seem to find or remember the FIM qualifying requirements); 2. Schedule return runs to occur at the top of every hour; 3. Whether a return run qualifies or not, if you want to try again you get back in line. Of course 'liners are excluded from these proposals for the most part.
As to the first and third proposals: it keeps people from making 'laps’ and using up time others could be out making their qualifying attempt. On the second proposal, unless a majority starts qualifying every run return runs shouldn't use up too much of each hour. Using a rough model with some random numbers, some simple ratios of records-to-runs from past meets, and using the three minute takt time goal between zero and 15 minutes would be needed each hour. Most likely many hours will have no or very few return runs. Also it would be easier to set the expectation of readiness. If someone wasn't ready at the top of the hour, they would just be slated to make a return run at the top of the next hour versus delaying down runs. If really needed, the course steward could make exceptions on a case-by-case basis.
Paul
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#6544
Last one I wrote last night
Topic: Where to place the line and blending the line
I love having the pits in the middle of the mile. Watching bikes launch is nowhere near as exciting as watching them come by at speed. The line of bikes and support vehicles winding through the pits and the attendant congestion is the problem.
There are pluses and minuses for moving prestaging, but for arguments sake lets leave prestaging in the pits. I'd propose swapping tech and impound with prestage. The queue would then snake out towards (and past) the backside of the fuel trailer.
To blend the line of ridden bikes with those hauled to the line, two quick options: 1. We could put everyone in one long line as is basically the case at other events; 2. The other option would be to have a volunteer line monitor that radio's the hauled bike(s) number to the list keeper for placement into the queue (see my other post about the list).
A long line is simple and works, maybe some squabbling if bikes bunch up along the way. The other option requires keeping the list, but using it as suggested in my list post.
Paul
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Paul,
I like all your comments, and it seems to be what you are saying is keep same system and refine on it? Is this what you are implying?
Personally I think they should nix the whole prestage system, where they line up, the list of bikes to run etc etc. Keep it simple. Everybody pulls into a line. This make one less thing the volunteer has to keep track of, there is no one who can abuse the system and it makes it fair for everybody.
As for keeping the prestage where it is so people can see the fastest part of a pass... We now have come to a fine line of, are you there to race or spectate? The people who are there to race want the most efficient way to get people down the course.
I would rather make the meet efficient so everybody gets to make alot of passes then worrying about if I see a few bikes at speed.
And my view is seen thousands of passes down the salt, most are pretty uneventful and rather boring, now I would however pull out of line to watch a streamliner or a bike like Aaron Wilsons.
Again want to race or spectate.
Jon
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Race of course. Spectating does get boring. That said, given the typical wait at the start of the events I been to since 2000, you need something to do. So you may as well get a good view of the action, or at least be close to your pit in case you forgot something simple (important to those with little or no crew). Get the typical wait down to a couple hours and I would agree to move the queues to the starting lines. Then you're back at how many long vs. short course to run at a time unless all bikes line up at the short course start and long course bike are then dispatched to the long course start as they arrive near the head of the line.
As I keep mulling it through my head, the single line scenario has the most bang for the buck in improving takt time. I'd keep prestage as it allows the bottleneck, course availability, to be actively managed before building up a large amount of inventory (bikes and riders) at both starts. The list is just a method to avoid/settle arguments of who is in front of who.
For one that rides to the start, the ride out gives me a chance to warm things up and make sure everything is working as expected (or as happened last year, not working) before I am at speed.
While individuals are adaptable, groups tend not to be, ergo my comments more to refining the existing setup vs. an overhaul of the entire event. Those used to the pattern and general flow are less disrupted when they come back the following year. Yep, it is different than other events, but some are only coming to this one due to the M/C focus. Logistically the centralized setup is more efficient for a number of parties.
I saw and heard about a number of competitors that were in line, and at times at the start, and weren't ready to race. That is why I made the comments about the rider and bike being available and ready past a certain point in the queue. It wouldn't hurt if some people weren't slower than molasses getting their gear on either. Things will happen, but every bike should come to the queue ready to go.
I do have to say the RWB course (I was shaking down my engine and broke, so I didn't get a chance to run the international course this year), went as smooth as could be expected. It seems the goodness from that course didn't make it across to the international course. Some of it was due to supply and demand. It doesn't take as long to run as even the short course, but the pattern of prestaging, staging, and starting went fairly smooth. I never made it to the start without at least a couple of bikes from the prior group preparing to run. Using a single, mixed long/short line, the same process could work for the international course. Trying to create the right mix out of multiple lines is always a problem especially with the variability associated with our form of racing.
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My only hope is that BUB reads and implements
some of the outstanding posts presented here.
Last year I send a (as a class sponsor) E-Mail noting several problems that could be resolved.
I received no answer.....and none were implemented this year...(like putting the pre-stage outside the pits....like getting someone on the pit PA that could be usefull......use of CB'S)
1 way-runs for AMA National record will speed things up.
Small bikes on the RWYB course.
I could go on and on........but if BUB people choose to do it "their way" the problems will not be corrected. I would like to see on the BUB site within the next year noted how and what they plan to do in regards to the 2008 event.
If I like what I read....they have my support........if
no effort is made to correct all the various problems.......I am GONE.......It is as simple as that!!!
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Bak,
I will tell you I have been in contact with Delvene.
A new system WILL BE DONE, for next year. And the system will be announced well before the BUB meet in 2008. Hopefully something announced early in the next year, like Feb-March.
I will say generally the meet is well done, getting thru tech, registration, pits etc. And Delvene does one hell of a job with what she has. Volunteers are a major problem, and a necessity for a good solid meet. Otherwise the limited ones pull double duties and get burned out fast.
If some good people just dedicated a half a day to the operation of the meet, it would help out the growing organization.
Jon
Comments here on the board ARE being read by the right people. So please continue on with suggestions, they know there is are problems, and they plan on fixing them.
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Outstanding, Jon, the motorcycle/sidecar racers
appreciate what you are doing, it would be a real shame to have a all M/C Speed Trial "go down the tubes". As you noted on the whole the meet is working well........some of the logistics regarding
communications, pre-staging and ways to "speed up" the event are certainly needed. I am aware that the BUB people did not expect the 350 plus entrees for this years event.....this certainly made it more difficult. I know, Jon, that you have been right from the beginning, a strong supporter of a International meet for M/C's and I fully agree with you, that is why I have been very supportive of the BUB. Delvene, has done a outstanding job
considering the work load she has been under......
hopefully she will get some good help to put the 2008 event together. Speaking for myself and my team we will adopt a "wait and see" posture.
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#492 I was a person who worked in the trailer on his bike while in line. since it was anywhere from 5-7 hours of waiting time in the line that didn't leave a lot of time to just play with it in the pits.
I have a problem with the single line. While the concept is fine the sheer length of it seems daunting and people will tend to creep. Besides it is almost painful to be surrounded by so much great machinery yet not really able to go look at it because i have to hang around my truck the whole time. I brought a CB only to leave it turned off. the radio communication was sparse at best. It would not be a huge demand to have to leave communications on all the time. Why could we not call groups of 10-20 competitors up to the prestage by radio or CB . If your not called don't be in the line. A large public sign up list would go a long way to assuring teams that they are on the list and not forgotten.. If i signed up 10 behind #xx on the list i know I'll be keeping an eye on him to see when he is called. As for getting off the course i agree that it is easy enough to stop within a mile for most of us. with only a single rear brake at 170 mph ( alright 168.9 )that was no problem but don't forget some of us are low and the turn off didn't seem to be marked. leaving me the choice of going another stretch to the next turn off our plowing a ditch in the salt. which i did once but it certainly made a mess. maybe some better markings to show the turn off coming up? I'll be back next year but i hope it goes a little smoother. as for the course workers. they kept their humor for the most part considering what they where being subjected to. There needs to be away to separate them from some of the more aggressive competitors who seemed to be able to get their way from sheer chutzpah
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#1194 I think pan chop hit on a very important subject: Communication; the radio was dead silent for most of the week. The job of an announcer is to keep people informed about what is going on. In this case, times from each bike should be coming into the tower by radio and should be announced as they come in. If there isn't communication from timing and scoreing then there should be (there was a couple of years ago) the announcer needs to keep people informed of whats happening, course is down because----, so and so is running against a record of---- etc,. etc. Funny hats are cute but the announcing staff needs to come to the party and realize why they are there in the first place. Why not use a CB system? It is what most everyone is used to and has worked on the salt for many, many years. Having said that perhaps the current FM radio is ok, we wouldn't know because it doesn't get used by the announcers!! Also, we as competitors need more info on the event web site prior to the event. For next year communication with the entrants via general information on the web site would go a long way.
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I have run at two of the bub events and i am generally pleased with the way the event was run. The staff was friendly and tech was run well. I saw many new faces that the sport so desperately needs.the 2007 event had a huge increase in entries over 06 and 05. With some minor changes mentioned in the previous posts i think the event will evolve and improve next year. With the 300+ entrants this year the demand for a bike only race is clear. Hopefully next year we will pit and line up near the start of the two courses without the sign up sheets. the fact that you don't have to trailer your bike around is reason enough to go to the next BUB event.
We need to remember that BUB has only been doing this for 4 years the other guys have been doing it for 50+ years. Cut them some slack and lets help make it better for next year. i am going to put in some time at next years event volunteering i encourage the rest of you guys to do the same.
jason.
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Jon,
Good thread, well needed. This is a great way to focus all the attention to one spot.
While I don't attend the Bub meet, I agree the event is a good one and a postive for the LSR sport. I have been involved with the sport in excess of 40 years and would like to offer a couple of comments to the posts.
Never, I repeat, never in my experience has the use of lists or the assigning of run numbers worked at Bonneville. The shear size of the area and the whims of the competitors make the system unusable.
I do like the idea of either one or two parallel lines(two in order to tighten the line) and then send to the starting lines in a group of ten or twenty. The head of the line could be opposite the short course start line so it would be a direct shot to the start area for the short course runners. While they are running the long course people will be towing to their start, then they run.
I like Sum's idea of sending a second group to a pre-stage area to prep for their turn. The idea of having to abort a qualifying effort because you ran too close to the end of the day doesn't sit well with me. I will have to defer to the AMA regs on this one.
Communications. How about using Ron Christenson's 1610AM radio station to be the announcer. Everyone could have their radio on and be informed as to current conditions. Those that ride their bikes are most likely to be in close proximity of a tow vehicle and can keep in touch that way. The officials and Ron would have to work closely together to make sure that everyone is on the same page.
DW
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A problem I noted when the prestage overseer (aka the primary keeper of the list and person with a radio) was communicating and verifying the bike numbers from each group heading to the starting line. A simple solution in today's world could be to transmit the information digitally via text message or wireless network of some sort. I only deal with the fringes of this stuff, but it seems something simple could be put together.
As for verbal communication to the overall group: PA important and semi-important info across the PA (weather stoppage, start of a 'liner run, need for parts, etc) to communicate across the pits as well as via whatever radio transmission is in use. My preference is via CB garbled messages can be prompted for reiteration. Though the reception via AM or FM seem to be better and are less disrupted.
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The DLRA intends to use a similar setup ,we were going to trial it last march ,but nature conspired to stop the trial , our system, 1 or 2 pre stage lines in or parallel to the pits , vehicles released in groups of 10/15 , to the starting area , 3 staging lines at the start ,line 1 for short course, line 2 for long course and the 3rd line for any streamliners or backup record runs , short course vehicles run first then long and others as required ,this is for a single course , we are also considering setting up 2 courses if our entries continue to increase , but would use the same system . We tried a list system and the majority of entrants disliked it .I hope to make it to bubs one day and will monitor how you work through these issues :-D
Gary
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Now here is something to think about. FIM runs, mainly streamliners.
I have been going thru a scenario in my head for a long time, and there are some trade off's in a plan.
It has been said that all entrants are treated the same, no matter FIM or AMA. Then this would have to include that streamliners get no special attention. However, I do see the point that when they are read they get to go, I have no problems with that. their records are the hardest to set and damnit they do deserve the course priority to run.
Now the question is once down the track they have two hours to return. And those particular (FIM attempts) should not have to goto impound. Work on vehicle at end of track. They have two hours to return. If they want to utilize the time to work on the vehicle lets say for 1 1/2 hours. Do you continue to run vehicles down the course for AMA records?
How many do you stage to run. And an instance would be when Leslie went down on her bike it shuts the course down for a minimum i would guess 1/2 hour. So if the FIM liner went down and the clocks ticking, they want 1 1/2 hours to work on vehicle and it leaves them 1/2 hour to get down the track, prep etc. Do we continue to run lets says anther group of 10 riders for AMA qualifying? I know that Denis likes to shut the course down for the whole 2 hours or until the liner makes the return pass. This is to ensure there are NO course holdups. But is it fair to the rest of the entrants? Or do you quit running 1/2 to the end of the 2 hour time frame?
Can someone be specific on what they did this year when a FIM liner went down the track? Did they shut it down? Or did they continue to run qualifying?
Jon
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Now here is something to think about........
..............Now the question is once down the track they have two hours to return. And those particular (FIM attempts) should not have to goto impound. Work on vehicle at end of track. They have two hours to return. If they want to utilize the time to work on the vehicle lets say for 1 1/2 hours. Do you continue to run vehicles down the course for AMA records?.................................Jon
Last year (2006) they would work on the streamliners at the end of the track at the turnaround point. What I wonder is say Ack is sitting down there getting ready to return and BUB runs in that direction. What happens if their chutes fail and they can't stop by the 11 mile mark?? Does Chris just try and steer around all of the people down there??
And then when they do return is everyone out of the way back at the 0 mile, such as the long course bikes that have been running and those waiting to run while the guys at the other end or getting ready for their return??
Also sometimes they don't want the full 2 hours to service the liner before they return.
Jon you are right that the FIM runs sure can complicate things, especially with the event growing like it has, but I don't think Dennis would put it on without them and as has been mentioned this is about the only event for the public where you can run FIM.
Now I do have the solution and e-mailed it to Dennis last year with no reply.
First run an 11 mile (when available) international course for FIM and FIA. Yes let those car guys that want to spend the money and want to run FIA come and run. Can you think of the coverage that would garner with BUB, Ack, Sam, Burkland, Nish, etc. all running at the same meet on the same track at the same time.
Second setup a second long/short course like was run at Speed Week this year and run in one direction only. Everyone would stage like at Speed Week at the 0 and either run to the 3 or the 5. Return runs in the morning except for the last day. AMA needs to seriously considering changing the way their record runs go if they want to promote the growth of this event.
Third if there is room setup a RWB course or have them run the long/short course just to the 2 mile.
Personally I would limit the FIA cars to ones that have shown they could run over 300 mph that would limit the cars and not end up with dozens that want to just get a FIA record. So realistcally you would have fewer bikes/cars on the FIM/FIA course than the long/short course, but the entry fees could be higher there, maybe they are now, to help pay for the cost of the course. Some of the cars that have been trying to rent the salt to run on private time would now maybe have an alternative that wouldn't cost as much and still cut the cost down for Manning.
I think with that type of "high speed" shootout for the bike and car streamliners the revenue from spectators would also go up.
Just some thoughts,
Sum
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"What I wonder is say Ack is sitting down there getting ready to return and BUB runs in that direction. What happens if their chutes fail and they can't stop by the 11 mile mark?? Does Chris just try and steer around all of the people down there??"
Interesting scenario, especially since Big Red is notorious for parachute failures.
Actually, with an eleven mile course, there is really no issue of getting the bike stopped by the end of the last mile. 5 miles to get her stopped is plenty for a motorcycle streamliner, even without parachutes. On a 290 mph run in Big Red in its early days, we were able to stop without the parachutes on a 9 mile course with ample room to spare. For cars, I'd imagine that would be different given the extra weight. They'd probably need more real estate.
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I do not believe the BUB would allow car streamliners to compete, yes, it would make for a great show, but after all Denis has worked very hard to make the BUB a all M/C effort.
But I do believe that using the RWYB course for one-way AMA record runs would move things along.....make the RWYB course 5 miles long........
RWYB turns off at the 3 mile.....AMA record runs go the full 5 miles. If your bike needs the "long course" (only after prove to the on site officials
that you need the long-course,,,,,,,no 140mph bikes on the 10mile course) you get to race the long course.....or for that matter you run over, say,
180mph on the 5 mile course......you get a sticker....................you than move up to the 10mile course........certainly keep the small-bikes on RWYB.
Also, to move things along, have Tech. make sure the bike presented is "rideable".....no W handlebars...........no foot rests way-up on the rear fender......make sure the bike can clear the course
and NOT have to wait for their pit-crew to get it off the track.......................... in other words NO Rollie Free bikes (sorry Rollie)
..
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The car and bike FIM event is and interesting senario but it won't happen at the BUB meet. The major appeal is that this is a bike meet by bike people and I do not see that changing (at least I hope not) I don't recall the course closing for two hours waiting for a return run of a liner. The event kept running and when the liner was ready it was give priority, which I believe is the right thing to do. I think the "keep it simple" approach for the event is the best way to go (as suggested here in several posts) (1) pre stage outside the pit area, one line fits all. (2) Line up at short course and release long course from there. (3) Volunteers to organazie the pits as people arrive. (4) At least AMA short course record runs on RWYB course. (5) announcers that inform. ---- race and repeat !!!
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Interesting scenario, especially since Big Red is notorious for parachute failures. .
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Now why do you think I had BUB with the chute failure and not Ack....... 8-) . Thanks for addressing that possibility.
I ordered your book the other day and it should arrive in a few more days I hope. I never ask for autographs, but I might have to make an exception in your case :-). Guess I'll have to wait for Speed Week or BUB next year.
c ya and glad you didn't get hurt in your little mishap,
Sum
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Yeah, I can just see SCTA/BNI, FIA, FIM & AMA all on the salt at the same time and trying to share the same real estate and get along. Leave it a bike only event, let the heavy hitters have their FIA meet and the hot rodders have theirs. The BLM says they need more events to justify the usage of the salt to be able to get Gov. support and funding. Same with save the salt.
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First, adding a few car 'liners would be cool in a "Sunday, Sunday, Sunday Funny Car Extravaganza"-type way (that is the analogous event that pops into my head), but would detract from the overall bike-only cool factor of the current event. Now setting up a psuedo-road course for the AHRMA guys to run on the salt would be a hoot (not realistic for many reasons though).
Back to the intent of this overall thread.
If we can take it as a given that there will be two safety crews on hand, so in case of an accident only the RWB course would be shut down due to the lack of a safety crew. If we also add on Jon's estimate that it takes 1/2 hour to clear the accident from the course, then we still need to account for course cleanup/repair (Jon, or is that in your estimate?) and some time for wind variations. It seems that maybe an hour run time, followed by an hour course shutdown (or until the 'liner runs) might be in order. The head honcho of 'liner team could make the call/request for less run time if turnaround is expected to be brief.
Or just add a parallel course to the existing one just for the 'liners. Not real feasible, but plausible.
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After a streamliner runs and is in the 2 hour return window bikes do continue to run. The starter will keep race control informed of the teams time line for their return and as many bikes are run, as can be, without impacting the return run. If there is a down time it is usually because it takes the team a bit longer than expected to get the liner ready to run or the wind interferes. The liners (and all FIM bikes) do get preferential treatment on their return run because of the two hour limit.
It's quite a balancing act to keep everything running in a safe mode when you have four starting lines on one course. From my perspective (last year at mile 0 and this year at miles 7 and 9) things ran well on the course. I know that we tried to get the next bike out as soon as the previous bike had cleared the course. Race control (Rex) would rotate around to the various starting lines to keep things flowing, but every time the course was reversed there was a little down time. This year we also seemed to have more problems with the wind and weather throughout the day, as opposed to last year where the weather seemed to come up in the afternoon.
Having the RWB course took a lot of pressure off of the international course as it was always busy. I like the idea of using the RWB course for records as the timing clocks are there and it would divert some more traffic from the international course. If all 350 entries would have had to run on a single course, at three minute intervals it would have taken seventeen and a half hours for each bike to make a run. With weather or any other delays, that's two days to get one run.
I think this puts the event into the category of "victim of its own success".
Glenn
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Good day all, Lynn King # 200 MPS
Post 3
This post will cover some old and some new stuff.
Re: Are we racing or viewing, from Jon and Bak.
Are you so narrowly focussed that you can't enjoy the full experiance of the event?
I race, I also enjoy spectating.
Re: suggestions. By Jon
It appears as though you are saying the only way is your way---others have offered suggestions, you continue to say the ONLY way it will work is your way. Am I reading your comments correctly?
Re: Having the pits near the start line due to the distance ridden/driven to the staging area.
Do the math. As it was we had to go three miles to the start/staging and ended at the 6 or 7.
Then 1 to 2 miles back to the pits. If we pit at the 2, we go down to the 6 or 7 and come back 5 or 6.
where did we lessen the distance??
Re: Bak and support. I have heard from you multiple times "If it doesn't get fixed, I'm pulling out wy support". If you pull out, will the meet stop?
Please quit threatening and continue to make constructive criticizums and recommendations. Hopefully
the best of them will be implemented. Not all will by any of us, but perhaps the best will.
Re: volenteers. Here's a wild one taken from one of my other intrests---would everyone be willing
to pay an extra $ 100 or $ 150 to have a professional organization run the show ????
Re: Communications. The dedicated FM station worked quite well. My crew was able to hear all 5 runs,
when I was starting my run, and what my speed was rite after the run. As a past radio announcer,
KFJC The Fine 89, the tower crew could use a little professional help. They did the best they could.
It will only get better.
Re: Jon and Bub crew getting this info. I sincerely hope they are getting ALL of this, not a filtered
or biased version.
Re: Keep the couse running while liners/Fim bikes prep for up run.
Already addressed, and it worked well.
Re: Safty crews. Yup, two or more crews would have helped. But remember, they were volentees
also.....
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Re: Are we racing or viewing, from Jon and Bak.
Are you so narrowly focussed that you can't enjoy the full experiance of the event?
I race, I also enjoy spectating.
Are you serious about this comment. Have you read what I do with Landracing.com. It's time entrants better used their time. I mean If I can take hundreds of pictures and post them to the website, write commentary on the event and post them (every couple hours while on the salt, and the only one who does it every event), race my bike, help brother race his bike and I very seldom miss any of the action. then goto the hotel at night and do more pictures and updates and even got video out last event. And I am a sole operator of the website. Are you now going to tell me that I can't experience the whole event. I haven't missed an event on the salt in over 10 years, with exception of this event. I know almost everything that goes on at any event, speeds, accidents, blow ups etc etc.
Re: suggestions. By Jon
It appears as though you are saying the only way is your way---others have offered suggestions, you continue to say the ONLY way it will work is your way. Am I reading your comments correctly?
I have never said it was only my way. I am not the organizer of the meet. I only offer the forum and strong feelings on what DOES work. Can you offer me any comments on why the suggestion I gave will not work?
Re: Having the pits near the start line due to the distance ridden/driven to the staging area.
Do the math. As it was we had to go three miles to the start/staging and ended at the 6 or 7.
Then 1 to 2 miles back to the pits. If we pit at the 2, we go down to the 6 or 7 and come back 5 or 6.
where did we lessen the distance??
not to sound negative and im really not trying to, but who cares how far you have to travel to and from. Where does distance traveled matter anywhere. All the matters is you get down the course in a timely fashing correct?
Re: volenteers. Here's a wild one taken from one of my other intrests---would everyone be willing
to pay an extra $ 100 or $ 150 to have a professional organization run the show ????
Because there isn't a professional organization that does this type of racing, or have to deal with the conditions in which we run.
Re: Jon and Bub crew getting this info. I sincerely hope they are getting ALL of this, not a filtered
or biased version.
They are reading the exact info you are reading. And the right people are reading this and coming up with best solution.
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And to be real frank with you, YES I believe that the list system has proven it will not work at all. This has been proven during the end of the meet in 2006, and proven useless at the 2007 meet. And moreover it has proven it did not work very well in Australia? Have you been there? I happen to be there and raced, it saw it first hand. Confusion at best. Does my opinion mean it's going to happen? Probably not. But I can suggest it.
And what harm would it be to scratch the whole system and use one that proves it works, and can work very efficiently. There are no cars at the event, so really the meet should be just as smooth then a combined event. Would you agree.
Jon
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Lynn King # 200 MPS
Jon, thank you for your VERY spirited reply and comments. Re: Am I serious?
My statement was based on your quote in reply #45 on pg.4, "Again want to race or spectate".
Yes I do know who you are, what you do, and how very much you contribute. Thank you for all you give to this forum. Few could do what you do. Only YOU do it.
I'm giving my literal interpritations to your comments. I'm very sorry if my understanding of your comments isn'that you ment to portray.
Re: Suggestions on "Why your suggestion will not work".
There is no reason it shouldn't work--I never said it wouldn't. As I offered earlier in my posts I do think the system could have worked well with proper training of volenteers. The "list" was bad in that we needed a large board--as I mentioed earlier.
Re:Travel distance. This was brought up by someone, not you, that we would have less distance to travel if the pits were at the start. Really a non issue. Sorry for wasting your time on that.
Re: Reply # 67. I don't know if this was directed at me, but I feel done correcly, it could/might have worked.
Again, thanks for your patience with me. Thanks for your efforts and contributions.
I'm just an old retired toolmaker and retired 500 GP Racer.
Lynn King
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Lynn,
All in good fun and it should be a fun place to discuss, throw options out there and reason. This is one of the best threads the forum has seen in awhile.
Jon
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Jon,
I was looking for you so I could meet you and pee on your sidecar. :-)
Sorry your part didn't come in.
I'm going to suggest to Delvene that they run it like the Pebble Beach Golf Course. Do viewers on this site go along with the suggestion that the number of people that come to BUB be restricted in numbers?
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Jon,
I was looking for you so I could meet you and pee on your sidecar. :-)
Sorry your part didn't come in.
I'm going to suggest to Delvene that they run it like the Pebble Beach Golf Course. Do viewers on this site go along with the suggestion that the number of people that come to BUB be restricted in numbers?
They could always just limit it to vehicles that run over 200mph... :lol:
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S/VBF#785 The goal of the Vincent stremliner is to set the outright World Landspeed Record for Motorcycles. You could be the World's Fastest, and not be recognized as the World Record Holder unless you attend an FIM sanctioned meet. As the Bub Meet is the only venue to meet this criteria, I want to thank Denis Manning for giving someone like me a chance to compete for the title.
I don't think a numbering system would ever work, due to logistics. I was just recently at the DMV where there was a sign, large and clear, with instructions. The instructions were quite simple. Take a number and wait for your number to be called. This was fair. First come. first served. The number holders were called in sequence, yet the duration of the times at the window were different, and sometimes different to the extreme. some had their act together, some didn't, and some obviously were taking care of more than one tag application at a time.
How is what I have just said applicable to what was observed during the Bub Meet as a participant? the numbering system worked at the DMV. Everyone in the room had a number,. It was their number. we all had a tab of paper with our number on it.
How it worked at the Bub Meet for the Vincent crew anywqay, was when I felt the liner was ready to make a run, I'd send a representtive to the prestage person and my representative would inform the prestage person that #785 was ready to make a run. He would come back to me and say that he had put us on the list. However, I received no number so the only one privy to the sequence of numbers on the list was the list holder.
I suppose that if my representative had asked what our number was, he would have been given a number verbally. Anything verbal in an organizational situation has the potential to lead to confusion. Probably after hours of waiting in line to make a run we wold have been asking ourselves, "Does anyone remember our number?"
The participant should be telling the starting official his position, instead of the starting official telling the participant, if the participant was in a single line the starting official would be told that information by virtue of the fact that he was next in line.
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Maxx, you don't need no stinking number :|
The FIM streamliners get to go at will, when ready don't they?
When I get back from WF, I'll stop by to chat with you and Patti again :-)
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Maxx, you don't need no stinking number :|
The FIM streamliners get to go at will, when ready don't they?
When I get back from WF, I'll stop by to chat with you and Patti again :-)
Well stainless, the way I see it, things have changed a bit since the 2005 Bub Meet when Denis gave a speech concerning streamliner priority, and the reasons for it.
On one occasion during the 2007 Meet, after waiting all day in line, we were told at the zero mile that we'd be the next ones to run. we were given a 10 minute notification. the rider, Hartmut Wedelich, was strapped into the liner. The wind came up so we had to wait for another 30 minutes. then they closed down the meet due to wind conditions. early the next morning we came to the line assuming that we would be the first to run.
This didn't happen. We were notified that there were 42 bikes ahead of us on the list.
I talked to the list holder and mmentioned that I felt this was wrong and asked "What about the priorities of streamliners?" I was emphatically told, "There are no priorities for streamliners."
Some have indicated in this thread that streamliners had priority. I can deffinetly say that the Vincent streamliner had no priority whatsoever, and waited in line like everyone else to be told by the starting official when we could run.
In short I believe that a list should not be used, in order to be fair to all of the competitors.
I can't speak for the other streamliners.