Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Carl Johansson on May 20, 2007, 11:34:15 AM
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Remember all the crap Jack gave me about Rollcages. And remember how helpfull Doug Odom and several others were? Probably not - but I do. Anyway heres photos of the roll cage in the 88 vette.
From the rear - drivers side:
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/carljohansson/88%20Bonneville%20car/rearviewdrivers.jpg)
From the passenger side. Notice the 2 "pettybars" - at the recomendation of SCTA inspectors - to give better head protection (stop crushdown). also notice the assist handle we added to improve exit time!
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/carljohansson/88%20Bonneville%20car/passside2pettys.jpg)
Originally we had 2 "earflap" style lateral head supports. Doug Odom kept saying how if he had to do it again he would use the drag stle roll cage - but i was worried about exitability if we did that. eventually we got rid of the flimsy ear flaps - and put in the 2 vertical supports you see here (another great suggestion from our inspectors) Removing the ear flaps and adding the assist handle got out exit time from 17 seconds with lots of helmet banging - to 12 seconds - much more comfortably and smoothly.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g135/carljohansson/88%20Bonneville%20car/88rollcage.jpg)
Hope this is small enough to post
Carl Johansson
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I remember everything I said and it is documented here.
You asked for a recommendation and I gave you one.
You declined for reasons only known to you and that was the end of it.
Perhaps somebody should read it to you. :roll:
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I can read just fine Jack. Unfortunately I have not a clue when I try to decipher many of your posts - including this one!
carl Johansson
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We all know the "Jack" likes to play the "devils advocate" and we should all take what he says with a "grain of salt"............................but the one thing that is beyond my understanding, why he has decided to knock to BUB M/C Trials......constantly..........I would think as an "old" M/C competitor he would support an all M/C Speed Trial. What say you, Jack?
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We all know the "Jack" likes to play the "devils advocate" and we should all take what he says with a "grain of salt"............................but the one thing that is beyond my understanding, why he has decided to knock to BUB M/C Trials......constantly..........I would think as an "old" M/C competitor he would support an all M/C Speed Trial. What say you, Jack?
Why bother asking - we probably won't be able to understand the convolution and obtusification - jack types like he's got marbles in his mouth!
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Carl, the cage looks pretty stout to me, but in looking at your fire bottles, those attachment straps make me shudder. Although they may be o.k. by the rules, I like to visualize what will happen if and when I am in a pencil roll crash. If a bottle were to come loose, no helmet or fire suit is going to keep that fire bottle from beating the Holy crap out of you. You have already gone on the safe side as far as the cage, but I sure would like to see you put a heavier strap on those bottles! p.s. I have been accused of overbuilding by many, but it gives me peace of mind when I leave the line. Good Luck........
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............. but it gives me peace of mind when I leave the line..............
Is there a song there somewhere?? How about it Dr. Googles or someone else with a little musical talent....
.......A....
Land Speed Racing Song
Just think about it Bob, crediting you for your 3 course idea will have been forgotten in 3 years, but those words could immortalized you :evil:,
Sum
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Carl, your cage looks fine, and I like your seat. All the questions you've asked have been fairly well thought out so I'm only throwing this out for you to think about (you may have already). Having been involved in running a Corvette or 2 in the past remember the floor in glass, keep that in mind when you consider your safety cage layout. Good Luck on your program.
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We all know the "Jack" likes to play the "devils advocate" and we should all take what he says with a "grain of salt"............................but the one thing that is beyond my understanding, why he has decided to knock to BUB M/C Trials......constantly..........I would think as an "old" M/C competitor he would support an all M/C Speed Trial. What say you, Jack?
Calling them as I see them with experience to match.
Others have the same views but are less likely to say it publicly in part because of the fear of retribution. :roll:
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carl
how fast ya hopin' ta go?
kent
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Carl:
If you go into the NHRA web site driver blogs and open the one for Tommy Johnson Jr. there's a pretty good shot of his new head restraint and seat. There are some good ideas there even if the application is a little different. The seat is very similar to the seat in an indy car that is poured around the driver. The head restraint is designed to limit side to side movement and is used in conjunction with a HANS devise.
Hope the ideas help.
Pete
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Sum, I have already been christened as immoral by many................ :wink:
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Carl, the cage looks pretty stout to me, but in looking at your fire bottles, those attachment straps make me shudder. Although they may be o.k. by the rules, I like to visualize what will happen if and when I am in a pencil roll crash. If a bottle were to come loose, no helmet or fire suit is going to keep that fire bottle from beating the Holy crap out of you. You have already gone on the safe side as far as the cage, but I sure would like to see you put a heavier strap on those bottles! p.s. I have been accused of overbuilding by many, but it gives me peace of mind when I leave the line. Good Luck........
Geez Bob, those are the ones recommended by the manufacturer - for this specific application, They were also recomended by delaware chassis works. They are not straps - they are machined out of 1 piece of aluminum, a substantial bracket - then the whole system is tied down to the seat mounts. I can work out more mounting sttraps - but the issue would be where to anchor them - some of that floor pan is iffy at best - thats why I use the seat mount studs to secure it.
If you really think I ought to - come by and find me at El Mirage next month - i would love to have your input on a better mounting setup!
Going back and looking at the photos - I can see why you said that - it looks like thin straps - but they are brackets that are at least 1/2 inch thick and made of billet aluminum - i think the photos may be misleading
Carl
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Carl, your cage looks fine, and I like your seat. All the questions you've asked have been fairly well thought out so I'm only throwing this out for you to think about (you may have already). Having been involved in running a Corvette or 2 in the past remember the floor in glass, keep that in mind when you consider your safety cage layout. Good Luck on your program.
Absolutely - every mount point was to the frame with custom made and fit 4" X 6" X 1/4" plate. we would cut out the glass to get to the frame! The plate was welded to the roll cage legs - and then welded to the frame - Other way around - we welded to the frame first - then the cage legs.
Carl
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carl
how fast ya hopin' ta go?
kent
225 when we get the big block in it.
Right now it still has the stock 350 in it - we are just playing around - but we think we will make 160 at WOS this year.
we are using it for D & C licensing and 130 and 150 mph club stuff this year - plan on putting in the bigblock next winter!
Carl
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Carl, sorry if I overreacted. I should have used that zoom button. It appeared to me from the photo that those were about half inch wide straps like come with the cheap "moon type" fuel tanks. Not trying to be critical, just helpful..........
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No overreaction Bob, You were trying to make sure I stay safe. I greatly appreciate that. Like I said - the photos were very misleading. Are you coming to EM in June?
Carl
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Right now I am swapping motors for a try at a new class (A/CFALT) and with the price of gas I may only make it to Boise. Man, last year was over a grand for gas and I really pity the guys towing from the East Coast. El Mirage is unfortunatlly out of the picture for now. Hope to see you run at Speedweek............
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Carl;
Where did you tie in main hoop braces in the back?
Thanks
RichK
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:-D
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Carl;
Where did you tie in main hoop braces in the back?
Thanks
RichK
Rich,
sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I was out of town. Are you talking about the rear bars that angle back from the hoop into the rear compartment? We cut out a 8" X 6" hole in the fiberglass - that gave us access to the frame - we welded a plate to the frame and the bars to the plate - I can give you mesurements as to the location - or I can send you closeup photos if you need em. (unfortunately I have now foamed over and sealed the opening to the weld itself - but you could easily see the locations
Carl J.
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Love the assist handle, and may add one to the '69 Elke. The SCTA inspectors made us add a diagonal bar at the top, and we didn't bend/curve it. Wish we had done that for some extra clearance, but it's too late.
The cage looks great, hope to see it at the salt.
LVMAXX
Lovelock, NV
If you want to go to the trouble to cut out your addition - you can send me a drawing and measurements of the bar you want - I can bend it up in 10 minutes - and get it out to you!
Carl
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It took the good Reverend to point this thread out to me.....seems like dangerous territory to me , one scrap of airplay and I'd have half the landracing community after me for a royalty point...good market though.
:roll:
On Topic.
Hey Carl , I was wondering about that bar that runs up the A pillar , it seems that a heavy direct hit on that (ie: a tumbling roll) might cause it to buckle in?...bringing the top section down with it...to where I notice the drivers seat is..How is that part braced? Where the bar bends from the vertical to meet the pillar seems to be a weak spot as I can't see a gussett or any method to keep it aligned with the pillar.I'ts probably just me , I built our cage with the thought that someone might drop a bulldozer on it.
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I was wondering about that bar that runs up the A pillar , it seems that a heavy direct hit on that (ie: a tumbling roll) might cause it to buckle in?...bringing the top section down with it...
Dr G - We worried about the same thing with the Jag and the solution in our minds was to put a plate from the cage upright to the A pillar + brace the bars via a bar from one upright to the other that is also tied into the firewall. Another thought was to run a second side intrusion bar Xing with the current side intrusion bar and joining onto the upright at about it's midpoint. We've held off on this to see how easy/hard it will be to get in and out of the car.
I built our cage with the thought that someone might drop a bulldozer on it.
I think that is probably the best way to build a car.
Lynchy
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carl
225 is a good speed to shoot for... but man....I'm sorry i have to say i don't like the cage... at 225 the car will get pretty air born and if she hits hard on the left door.... your askin' alot out of that seat.... I see a neck injury from the belts wanting to rip the drivers head off when the seat mounts fail. i see a possibility of a lot of driver movement. It would probably pass tech the way it is but please add another tube on the drivers rh side. be safe!
Kent
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carl
225 is a good speed to shoot for... but man....I'm sorry i have to say i don't like the cage... at 225 the car will get pretty air born and if she hits hard on the left door.... your askin' alot out of that seat.... I see a neck injury from the belts wanting to rip the drivers head off when the seat mounts fail. i see a possibility of a lot of driver movement. It would probably pass tech the way it is but please add another tube on the drivers rh side. be safe!
Kent
Kent,
are you going to be at Elmo this weekend? I'm not sure I follow what you are saying - I'm hoping you will be around so we can look at it and i can get your input. Another tube where on the right side? Are you talking about angling off the hoop past the drivers right shoulder and down to the floor? That would cause problems with accessing the fire system release as well as the parachute - both are located on the tunnel.
Carl
Carl
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Dear Dr. Beer Goggles,
I have looked at the a pillar supports and thought about it alot. Before we go to the bigblock engine we will be putting in a crossbar that runs between the 2 A pillar posts. A gussett between the a pillar bars and the A pillars might be a good idea - I will look at that. That A pillar comes from GM pretty strong - typical corvette rollovers do not cave in the A pillars, nor the Halo - they were engineered as rollpoint support.
I don't understand your question about the seat bracing. The seat is mounted to the factory seat mounting locations with heavier duty hardware - in a corvette you are limited by where the glass starts on the floor plan.
It doesn't show on the pictures because we were still fabbing it up - but the back of the seat is bolted to the diaganal bar in the hoop with a custom bracket and grade 8 hardware.
I haven't seen any Bulldozers on the salt or at El Mirage for that matter. My criteria for the cage is to build it as strong as possible - but do not overengineer it so much that I can survive the bulldozer - only to be barbecued because I couldn't find my way out of the tangle of bars built into a superstrong cage - that ended up limitting my ability to get out of the car. So the object is to survive a long multiple rollover - and to get out of the car on my own.
It took the good Reverend to point this thread out to me.....seems like dangerous territory to me , one scrap of airplay and I'd have half the landracing community after me for a royalty point...good market though.
:roll:
On Topic.
Hey Carl , I was wondering about that bar that runs up the A pillar , it seems that a heavy direct hit on that (ie: a tumbling roll) might cause it to buckle in?...bringing the top section down with it...to where I notice the drivers seat is..How is that part braced? Where the bar bends from the vertical to meet the pillar seems to be a weak spot as I can't see a gussett or any method to keep it aligned with the pillar.I'ts probably just me , I built our cage with the thought that someone might drop a bulldozer on it.
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If a well placed support was added to restrict the driver from unwanted motion and the access to the safety systems was compromised, I guess I don't see where that would a problem to modify.
The design should take consideration that allows quick egress without help, if the operator is not incapacitated in an upset, even if the body panels were to be displaced and the doors won't work for example. :wink:
"The perfect crash is as rare as the perfect landing". (me)
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Jack's new book, "Quotes from me and other giberish" is now in printing and will be available soon. The best part is that although it is written in English, it can be read by those with no understanding of the English language with equal understanding..................... :wink:
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In 99% of the crashes we handle the driver is still in the vehicle when the emergency team arrives. The driver is usually still trying to figure out what the hell happened. Actually they are better off to stay put unless there is a fire. Many injuries are not known until we extract the drivers. There is a lot going on at that time and we have patrols and the emergency vehicles along the course. Usually a 30 to 45 second response time.
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Hey Carl,
yep i will be at elmo. we'll be the big yellow Penske truck with 4 bikes in the back :-D . I would love to check out your car. Yep 1 more tube that runs under the drivers right arm and down to the floor will keep the driver and seat where you originally had it bolted. The seat often gives the builder a false sense of protection. unbolt the seat and take it out.... put your harness back in and look at it....... what kind of movement do you think the driver will have in a 5G impact? I want ya safe man!
kent
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At the risk of getting into a flame contest let me just say this. The seat should never be mounted to the floor. It should be mounted to the roll cage. The seat and cage and belts should all one unit. Doug Odom
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Hi Everyone,
I'm a long way away from most of you on this board so the fear of being belted by an angry respondant never really comes into it . This message board is without parallel the most valuable thing our team has found to help us in our pursuit of LSR. It is full of the most experienced and thoughtful people involved in the game.Due to my limited experience I try to restrict my comments to analysis of logic and engineering principles , and what I can see. It would be a shame to let discussion here descend into a peeing contest or a shouting match.
It was a revelation for our team to read the "Interview with Jack Kelly" about his experiences and his E gas/Lakester as it is the class we are in .Time after time we found little details and solutions that were uncannily similar to those on our car , solutions that we had arrived at by a logical progression and by discussion with knowledgeable people about the necessary safety issues and the available space we had. Sometimes I like to think that in this game if you think you thought of something yourself you just haven't looked or read hard enough . Likewise after the build of our car I am becoming familiar with the kind of questions that people who are "getting involved " ask ....wheels and tires are the most obvious .
Carl , when I ask someone a question invariably I am expecting to learn something myself from their reply , sometimes the simplest detail contains a massive amount of thought and or experience and simply asking "how come that is like that?" can reveal an issue that I ain't never troubled my poor old head with.:?
Now
(1.)Dear Dr. Beer Goggles,
(2.)typical corvette rollovers do not cave in the A pillars, nor the Halo - they were engineered as rollpoint support.
(3.)I don't understand your question about the seat bracing.
(4.)I haven't seen any Bulldozers on the salt or at El Mirage for that matter. My criteria for the cage is to build it as strong as possible - but do not overengineer it so much that I can survive the bulldozer -
(5.)only to be barbecued because I couldn't find my way out of the tangle of bars built into a superstrong cage - that ended up limitting my ability to get out of the car. So the object is to survive a long multiple rollover - and to get out of the car on my own.
1./ Who doesn't like beer ? ...I am not a drunk.
2./Typical Corvettes don't do 225mph.
3./ the bracing question was about the bar going up the A pillar , not the seat mount.
4./ It's a figure of speech , we don't have the luxury of a " crumple zone " in our car.
5./Carrying as much fuel as you need and no more is a consideration there .If the cage doesn't resist a serious crash a fire won't really be of a concern to whoever is in the car.
I hope this has clarified my questions and gone some way to "cooling" things down a little.Safety in this game is my utmost concern particularly in consideration to our local event because an event as small and as remote as ours is always at risk of being ended by the liability concerns of people who are not fans or entrants.....I want to be safe , I want you to be safe so we can keep doing it for a long time.
Go get 'em :wink:
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Who doesn't like beer ? ...I am not a drunk
My wife gave me a T shirt:
"I'm not an alcoholic!
Alcoholics go to meetings!"
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Who doesn't like beer ? ...I am not a drunk
My wife gave me a T shirt:
"I'm not an alcoholic!
Alcoholics go to meetings!"
............measure your beer-gut, if it's over 499 ci you're in AA class :-D :-D :-D :-D :wink:
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hey i may qualify for that..... who's got the CI tape measure? 499 ya say!
kent
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Kent, you don't need a tape, :| If you can drink 8.2 liters of beer, you're in AA, class not the meetings :roll:
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My theory is: if someone offers you a beer by asking if you need a beer, you are a candidate for a meeting. My answer is ALWAYS "yes, I would like a beer, thank you"
My drink of choice? If there is a 'b', a couple of 'e' and an 'r' ANYWHERE on the label, I'm drinking a free one.
DW
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When one is offered a libation, especially in impounds, the impoundee is possibly looking for a little slack during the process. The important part is whether the worker asks the brand.
Now from experience, 2 of us do not ask such a question. We are open to the offer and do it with a smile and say thanks. Personally I have my favorite brand and when buying will only purchase said brand. When accepting an offer, any will do with the exception of "Sidewinder Beer" which can not even be used for trading: 2, 3, 4, 5 ,or even 6 to 1. I even accept a certain "diet" drink from one of our competitors.
As for the slack in the process, liquid in cans doesn't carry the same weight and a thick envelop with pictures of famous Americans enclosed....OK, tongue in cheek here. :wink:
Personally I like the offer of a drink near the end of the day and will always appreciate the offer.
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Flame war? Flame war? this ain't no flame war - take it from one who knows. I was right in the middle of a couple of the nastiest flame wars in Inet history, Ralphie on aviation safety, the Bass wars, Jim Campbell sueing everyone - I've been in some real dust ups - this is a bunch of guys giving their honest heartfelt opinions - I'm always grateful for that.
I appreciate all opinions - especially those backed by thought and experience. Sometimes people get focused on a small detail or component - and forget the big picture. Different cars, different builds, different engineering, different designs - all need to be taken into consideration as part of the whole project. no one wants to skimp on safety, but sometimes, someone will get fixated on a specific point - and not be able to view the problem or system in context. Sometimes I see that in landspeed cars - someone gets so focused on building the biggest or best or most complex system A - and they forget to consider how A fits with B, & C. and how it will affect each of them.
One of the potential problems with experience is that it tends to sharpen focus to very specific issues. the focus gets very narrow on whatever caused someone a problem. Often the solution will impact other system or issues in a car - but that doesn't show up until the next incident!
I'll be at Elmo - look me up - have a look - and lets talk about your ideas and concerns!
carl Johansson
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Yes I could use a photo. Are you tied in at the rear crossmenber?
RichK
Carl;
Where did you tie in main hoop braces in the back?
Thanks
RichK
Rich,
sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I was out of town. Are you talking about the rear bars that angle back from the hoop into the rear compartment? We cut out a 8" X 6" hole in the fiberglass - that gave us access to the frame - we welded a plate to the frame and the bars to the plate - I can give you mesurements as to the location - or I can send you closeup photos if you need em. (unfortunately I have now foamed over and sealed the opening to the weld itself - but you could easily see the locations
Carl J.
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Rich - I
m tied into the the frame rails on the sides of the car - about 3 feet back from the hoop - I'll try and shoot a photo - but my kid just stole my digital camera and went on vacation for a week - don't suppose you can make el Mirage this week?
CarlYes I could use a photo. Are you tied in at the rear crossmenber?
RichK
Carl;
Where did you tie in main hoop braces in the back?
Thanks
RichK
Rich,
sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I was out of town. Are you talking about the rear bars that angle back from the hoop into the rear compartment? We cut out a 8" X 6" hole in the fiberglass - that gave us access to the frame - we welded a plate to the frame and the bars to the plate - I can give you mesurements as to the location - or I can send you closeup photos if you need em. (unfortunately I have now foamed over and sealed the opening to the weld itself - but you could easily see the locations
Carl J.