Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Water/Methanol Injection => Topic started by: landracing on April 30, 2007, 01:37:42 AM
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The article on the main page of the website on water/methanol injection sounds like a good additive for tow vehicles with the price of gas right now, and I'm sure climbing over the summer. Snow Performance looks like the have an affordable kit just about for any application and the technology is there.
A 1-2 MPG gain a tow rig could gain, over long distance this could add up to some good money. It could pay for itself in one racing year, since gas prices are on the rise and been talk of seeing $4/gallon by summer. Plus the added benefits for the motor. And anther kit for the race vehicle.
Contemplating one of their kits for the Project600 motor...
http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68
Jon
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We are going with one of their kits using the water only on Hooley's blown stude this summer in the blown gas comp coupe class. They are working with us and we look forward to using their products. Hooley will be picking the parts up at their location outside of Colorado Springs next week after visiting me. He and his wife Wanda are coming by to do some hiking and sightseeing.
Snow Performance (http://www.snowperformance.net/) is a Land Speed Racing friendly company. Nate Stewart is their tech guy and has spent many years at B'ville along with his dad Mike Stewart who has been the Chief Inspector on the salt. Give these guys a call and support the advertisers here and in the rule book,
Sum
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In the late 70's and early 80's when we were trying to learn about turbos and gasoline, we had a windshield washer pump with methanol that injected into the top of the carb. Experimented with different sized jets on the end of the hose to moderate flow. Am sure could be done in a much more sophisticated manner now. Also had a knock sensor and the ability to change the advance from inside the cab while driving. Not sure we learned that much but it sure was a fun truck. Ended up building three different motors before we got through. Not cheap but education is always worth while, especially when you make good hp.
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I am contemplating a similar set-up for my new bike,also.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120093962312&rd=1&rd=1
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I hope you guys are all planning on running in the fuel classes with this methanol squirter...
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Well hello to everyone. I just wanted to stop by and briefly introduce myself and Snow Performance.
I've been involved in LSR all my life as I was born into a racing family. My father is "Miler" Mike Stewart. He is most commonly known for being the SCTA's head tech inspector for the past few years. I started driving the family '28 Ford Roadster back when I first got my license at 16. I've run for many years at El Mirage and I currently hold the V4/GR record at Bonneville. I served a four year term in the Army and spent a year in Iraq. I'm now out of the military and working as the technical support engineer for Snow Performance.
Snow Performance is the water/methanol injection industry leader. We're constantly striving to design and build the best in water/methanol injection systems. We have injection systems available for every application imaginable. We can support any fuel type and any horsepower level. The write up that Jon posted is a good overview of how water/methanol works as well as the different types of vehicles the system works on. Whether you're trying cool the air charge on your Roots-blown small block Chevy or decrease EGT's and make more power on your diesel tow rig, Snow Performance has got a kit that will work for you.
If anyone has any questions concerning any of our products or if anyone has any questions regarding water/methanol injection in general, please feel free to post up and ask. I will try to be present on this forum as much as possible to help in any way that I can. You can also email me at tech@snowperformance.net or call me at 866-365-2762. Just ask for "Nate" in tech support.
Thanks,
Nathan Stewart
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I hope you guys are all planning on running in the fuel classes with this methanol squirter...
The system can be run using water only which is obviously still legal for the gas class.
Nate
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I am contemplating a similar set-up for my new bike,also.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120093962312&rd=1&rd=1
I'm pretty sure we're going to be organizing a group buy for Landracing.com members here shortly. If you haven't already purchased this other system I would consider holding out for the group buy and saving yourself some money.
Thanks,
Nate
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Thanks for your reply Nate. I was just making it clear that methanol was illegal in Gasoline classes. Many have tried "water" injectors before with success. There are rules in the book to follow and at Bonneville it maybe a lot easier than El Mirage. I'm sure Dan and others will work it out. The "legal" guys won't have a problem drinking what's left in their tank. :-D...Thanks again
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The "legal" guys won't have a problem drinking what's left in their tank. :-D...Thanks again
Most of us would still drink it if you used ethanol :roll: :evil:
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If you have anything left to confuse tech. you have too much. :wink:
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Snow Performance has a very good reputation here locally. You see quite a few of their systems up at the drag strip, both on cars and on the tow vehicles, and on the local turbocharged imports.
I have a home built system using shurflo pumps and generic spray nozzles from Mc Master and Carr and now also have an Aquamist system which is another top line WI vendor, that actively supports racing and has bonneville experience. They built the WI system used on the Diesel Max streamliner for example, and build the systems used in most of the WRC rally cars. They have extensive experience with the Subaru due to their WRC experience which is why I chose them for my system.
A third vendor that is active in racing (mostly with the Buick GN folks but now supporting other makes) is SMC.
Each of the vendors have their advantages and disadvantages as far as pricing, features, support etc.
I consider all three of those vendors worth investigating if your interested in building up a system for either a tow vehicle or a race vehicle. They seem to do a good job of taking care of their users.
Larry
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Group buy sounds good.Keep us informed.
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I would also be interested in the group buy.
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got my stage 3, just not finished installing it yet
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got my stage 3, just not finished installing it yet
Well lookie there. Let me know if you need any assistance getting that Stage 3 all hooked up. I'm sure you'll enjoy it once you get it all in.
Nate
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I actually premiered it at Alt-Wheels in Boston last year. http://www.altwheels.org/aw06indexfull/img_5050.jpg (http://www.altwheels.org/aw06indexfull/img_5050.jpg) It was about as hooked up as it is now. I figured that being it was an alternative fuel show, nobody mechanically inclined would really show up and be able to pick off that it wasn't completely together. And I was right. I had to show them were I had to drill it into the intake still. The sign on the side of the truck was "powered by vegetable oil", last year I added "and windshield washer fluid". You guys got a lot of ohhhh's and ahhhh's.
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I always get a long pause on the phone when ever I tell customers that they can pick up 50-80 hp on their diesel truck using windshield washer fluid which is then followed by "did you just say washer fluid??"
Nate
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I always get a long pause on the phone when ever I tell customers that they can pick up 50-80 hp on their diesel truck using windshield washer fluid which is then followed by "did you just say washer fluid??"
Nate
Dangerous business here- got to make 2 pistons & repair billet al head on diesel pulling tractor that thought washer fluid was a good idea instead of water..russ
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Russ, did ya use the blue stuff :-) or the green stuff :-(
Did the rods stay straight on the pistons that were not damaged :?
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I always get a long pause on the phone when ever I tell customers that they can pick up 50-80 hp on their diesel truck using windshield washer fluid which is then followed by "did you just say washer fluid??"
Nate
Dangerous business here- got to make 2 pistons & repair billet al head on diesel pulling tractor that thought washer fluid was a good idea instead of water..russ
Im thinking there was a malfunction in the setup rather then being "Washer Fluid" vs "Water"...
Jon
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Russ, did ya use the blue stuff :-) or the green stuff :-(
Did the rods stay straight on the pistons that were not damaged :?
I made the rods & they have survived 3 crankshafts- they have stayed straight for the last 10 years.- I'm not sure which color stuff he used..
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Nate
Im thinking there was a malfunction in the setup rather then being "Washer Fluid" vs "Water"...
Jon
Don't think so-- made 2 more pistons{made me mad as he was to cheap to have me make spares in first place}went back to water and has run O K ever since-damage to pistons was burn {or melt} damage to head was burn around valve seat- old puller{shotgun red- the wining est superstock to ever hook to a ntpa skid} when he called to see how big perkins was doing & found out bout washer fluid - immediately asked "how many pistons did he burn" he is like Jack - been there & done that..russ
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WWJD
It sounds like you have pinned down the WHAT with your own results.
Now you have to find out the WHY part so you can understand more about it.
Chemistry can be your friend if you understand it.
In your position it might not be information you want to share. :wink:
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Some of the "blue juice" windshield washer fluids have enough detergent additive in them, that they can clog the spray nozzles due to a build up. It appears this happens when the spray fluid has a chance to repeatedly evaporate off the nozzle, leaving behind a buildup of the detergent goop. One way to clean out the nozzles if you see that happening is to boil them in vinegar to re-dissolve the goo.
Pre-filters on the nozzles also help of you have any sort of crud floating in the lines.
Larry
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I think the lesser quality fluids probably have less detergent. Rainex with bug cleaners would probably be bad. But Snow Perf has a mixture, or I guess you could mix your own w/ your own meth. Or use Heet and washer fluid to bring the meth content up/
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Isn't talked bout much - but instead of alky in the water- some are using hydrogen peroxide..russ
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I always get a long pause on the phone when ever I tell customers that they can pick up 50-80 hp on their diesel truck using windshield washer fluid which is then followed by "did you just say washer fluid??"
Nate
Dangerous business here- got to make 2 pistons & repair billet al head on diesel pulling tractor that thought washer fluid was a good idea instead of water..russ
Are you suggesting that a small concentration of methanol melted through two of your pistons? There are so many variables involved that I find it difficult to believe that washer fluid had enough methanol in it to cause any kind of catastrophic damage. We've got a fairly well hot rodded '04 Cummins 3500 here in the shop that is our test mule. That truck hasn't gone a day in its life with less than 70% methanol in it. Catastrophic failues are more frequently caused by overfueling conditions than water/methanol. If too much water/methanol is injected into a diesel motor it will simply quench and misfire. BTW -20 degree f washer fluid has about a 30% concentration of methanol.
Some of the "blue juice" windshield washer fluids have enough detergent additive in them, that they can clog the spray nozzles due to a build up. It appears this happens when the spray fluid has a chance to repeatedly evaporate off the nozzle, leaving behind a buildup of the detergent goop. One way to clean out the nozzles if you see that happening is to boil them in vinegar to re-dissolve the goo.
Pre-filters on the nozzles also help of you have any sort of crud floating in the lines.
Our nozzles have pre-filters built into them. :wink:
I think the lesser quality fluids probably have less detergent. Rainex with bug cleaners would probably be bad. But Snow Perf has a mixture, or I guess you could mix your own w/ your own meth. Or use Heet and washer fluid to bring the meth content up
We've seen that the lesser quality fluids usually have lower concentrations of methanol as well. -20 degree fluid usually has 25-35% methanol, 0 degree fluid usually has 10-20% methanol, and 32 degree fluid has 0-10% methanol. FYI Wal-Mart brand "SuperTec" winter blend washer fluid has one of the highest concentrations of methanol we've come across at ~36%. We do not recommend that any specialized washer fluids with bug removers or water shedders (Rain-X) be used for injection purposes. Also, washer fluid that is rated below -20 degree typically has glycol based antifreeze agents which is also a no-no for injection.
Isn't talked bout much - but instead of alky in the water- some are using hydrogen peroxide..russ
From our research and according to a number of SAE technical papers, the combustion characteristics of methanol make it act as a catalyst in a diesel. Because of its effective octane/cetane rating and combustion rate, methanol tends to work best in a diesel application.
Hope this helped.
Nate
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Nate,
How do those controllers work. What can you control? Is there more to the story on those controllers then what your website says? Or Doesnt say? And lets say we want a system for a 4 cylinder is there a system for a nozzle / cylinder or just a single nozzle setup?
Jon
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[quote Also, washer fluid that is rated below -20 degree typically has glycol based antifreeze agents which is also a no-no for injection.
Mazda used glycol-water injection to help with the cold weather starting on RX4 and RX7 rotories 1976-1986, seamed to work good. :roll:
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Nate,
How do those controllers work. What can you control? Is there more to the story on those controllers then what your website says? Or Doesn't say? And lets say we want a system for a 4 cylinder is there a system for a nozzle / cylinder or just a single nozzle setup?
Jon
I'll give it a shot until he replies. Hooley is picking our stuff up tomorrow.
Nate will help you pick a nozzle/nozzles depending on the HP you will be making. We are going with two in the top hat on top of the Roots style blower.
Now with the controller we are getting you set the boost level that you want it to start spraying, I think 0 to 8 psi.. Then you set the boost level where it is spraying 100%. So let's say in our case we could set it so it starts spraying at 4 lbs. of boost and at 10 lbs. it is spraying 100%. It pumps at the same pressure all of the time, I think 150 psi, but the controller pulses the pump on and off to regulate the amount of water and/or water/methanol mix between none to 100 percent duty cycle where it is spraying all the time. At this point the total being sprayed is dependent on the nozzle size. Very similar to EFI.
Now I'll hope Nate responds and lets you know what really happens 8-) so I'll know myself.
c ya,
Sum
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Are you suggesting that a small concentration of methanol melted through two of your pistons? There are so many variables involved that I find it difficult to believe that washer fluid had enough methanol in it to cause any kind of catastrophic damage.
Nate
[/quote]Wasn't melted through- just around valve pockets & down side into top ring-I don't get involved in tuning the smokers-but this one put out about as much black smoke as the pheonix- he probably was giving it enough fuel- the washer fluid was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak-these puller engs are pushed to max so just a little to much is to much-wise old puller {shotgun red knew what was going to happen as soon as he heard washer fluid }side note- injector pump pulled so hard that the helical gear on cam broke the end off cam- some go to strt cut gears to avoid the problem-quick fix here was another cam- another wreck waiting to happen.
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From our research and according to a number of SAE technical papers, the combustion characteristics of methanol make it act as a catalyst in a diesel. Because of its effective octane/cetane rating and combustion rate, methanol tends to work best in a diesel application.
Hope this helped.
Nate
[/quote]wait a minute here- alky is an octane booster according to the eng design book I have- that would seem to disqualify it as a cetane booster which isn't supposed to be good for a diesel??specially a high speed one-he was turning the big perkins 6500 which seems a bit fast for a direct inject eng.
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Splain to me the need for a regulated intake fluid pump for added injection in a blown system that makes it's own air.
Doesn't the demand go up with the air pressure and presumably the added pressure on the fluid reservoir would follow the need ? :wink:
Say HI to your dad.
He was one of the first ones to use NOS for LSR.
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I always get a long pause on the phone when ever I tell customers that they can pick up 50-80 hp on their diesel truck using windshield washer fluid which is then followed by "did you just say washer fluid??"
Nate
Nate,
I Destroyed 6 ATS Billet input shaft Transmissions & Convertor's,and 1 BADA$$ 03 6.0 psd Motor before I gave it up! Try 150rwhp & 300rwtq extra with 100% Methanol injection an the two tiny SMC jets :-o! 511rwhp 903rwtq with a stock motor & turbo! It works Great but it' was hard on my stuff.
I Also Blew up my brand new Saleen SC-281 SPEEDSTER trying to run it with Pump gas and 14lbs of Boost''The Buick guy's go 25lbs",and my SMC Setup :cry:! I admit I broke allot of stuff using that DRUG:oops:!
Just becareful and don't do a KAZ :evil:.............................
I Was a Great Beta Tester for Edge,ATS,and Ford! Line Pressure or Lack of it was the Problem back then.
We had no Transmission Line Pressure control back in 2003 for the Ford's
The Ton of immediate HP & TQ Speed-ed up the Failures :evil:!
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Now with the controller we are getting you set the boost level that you want it to start spraying, I think 0 to 8 psi.. Then you set the boost level where it is spraying 100%. So let's say in our case we could set it so it starts spraying at 4 lbs. of boost and at 10 lbs. it is spraying 100%. It pumps at the same pressure all of the time, I think 150 psi, but the controller pulses the pump on and off to regulate the amount of water and/or water/methanol mix between none to 100 percent duty cycle where it is spraying all the time. At this point the total being sprayed is dependent on the nozzle size. Very similar to EFI.
Very close - except that the cycling of the pump actually varies the line pressure and we vary the injection by that pressure. If you are familiar with Bosch CIS injection on older European cars - it is exactly the same concept.
Sorry - forgot to introduce myself. Name is Greg Dunn and I am Sales Director for Snow Performance. Been to the salt several times helping friends - never raced there myself, though.
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wait a minute here- alky is an octane booster according to the eng design book I have- that would seem to disqualify it as a cetane booster which isn't supposed to be good for a diesel??specially a high speed one-he was turning the big perkins 6500 which seems a bit fast for a direct inject eng.
I am not a chemist, but octane and cetane are completely different ratings for different types of behaviors - so an octane booster in spark ignition could be a cetane booster or decreaser in another. If you reference SAE Technical paper #940326 from "Alternative Fuels in CI & Heavy Duty Engines" (SP-1027) it lists pure methanol with a Cetane of 4. They actually had to preheat the air on the test engine more (than on straight diesel) when injecting methanol, or they got too slow of a flame travel and a slower ignition.
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Wasn't melted through- just around valve pockets & down side into top ring-I don't get involved in tuning the smokers-but this one put out about as much black smoke as the pheonix- he probably was giving it enough fuel- the washer fluid was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak-these puller engs are pushed to max so just a little to much is to much-wise old puller {shotgun red knew what was going to happen as soon as he heard washer fluid }side note- injector pump pulled so hard that the helical gear on cam broke the end off cam- some go to strt cut gears to avoid the problem-quick fix here was another cam- another wreck waiting to happen.
If it has black smoke - it is overfueled. The black smoke is the particulate emission. Over fueling leads to higher and higher EGTs and engine melting. water-Methanol can help burn the "extra" fuel more completely and reduce EGTs so the compression ignition engine is safer, not more likely to melt. What type of injectors and pump was he using?
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wait a minute here- alky is an octane booster according to the eng design book I have- that would seem to disqualify it as a cetane booster which isn't supposed to be good for a diesel??specially a high speed one-he was turning the big perkins 6500 which seems a bit fast for a direct inject eng.
Your engine design book is correct however you took my statement out of context. I never made any mention of methanol being a cetane booster. Octane ratings and cetane ratings are on completely different spectrums. As I had said previously the effective octane/cetane rating of methanol makes it act as a combustion catalyst in a diesel application. It is not a cetane booster.
Splain to me the need for a regulated intake fluid pump for added injection in a blown system that makes it's own air.
Doesn't the demand go up with the air pressure and presumably the added pressure on the fluid reservoir would follow the need ?
Say HI to your dad.
He was one of the first ones to use NOS for LSR.
We need to increase the injection rate to support the increase in airflow and heat. Our system operates at a pressure of 150-200+ psi. This provides the best atomization which increases surface area for cooling and equal distribution. We don't pressurize our reservoirs. If you relied on manifold pressure to pressurize a reservoir you wouldn't have any injection because the two pressures counteract each other and you'd have an equalization.
JackD from Sand Diego... hmmm. I'm willing to bet I know who you are but if you tell me your last name I'll be sure to pass that hi on to my dad.
Nate,
I Destroyed 6 ATS Billet input shaft Transmissions & Convertor's,and 1 BADA$$ 03 6.0 psd Motor before I gave it up! Try 150rwhp & 300rwtq extra with 100% Methanol injection an the two tiny SMC jets ! 511rwhp 903rwtq with a stock motor & turbo! It works Great but it' was hard on my stuff.
I Also Blew up my brand new Saleen SC-281 SPEEDSTER trying to run it with Pump gas and 14lbs of Boost''The Buick guy's go 25lbs",and my SMC Setup ! I admit I broke allot of stuff using that DRUG:oops:!
Just becareful and don't do a KAZ .............................
Wow those are impressive numbers. I knew there were a few people out there running 100% methanol on their diesels. I don't want to counter what SMC may have advised you with as far as tuning and wht kind of fluid to use but we only recommend a 50/50 mix of water/methanol. At that point the concentation of methanol is low enough to prevent any kind of problems but high enough to still make some good power increases. The water acts as an intercooler helping to reduce IATs and create a more condensed air charge. This effectively gets more oxygen into the combustion chamber giving you the ability to burn more fuel and make more power while reducing EGTs.
As far as your Speedster goes did you run out of fluid (clog, forgot to fill the tank, etc.) or was there some kind of system failure? There is always the potential for detonation when a gas engine is setup to depend on water/methanol injection for air charge cooling or increases in effective octane. Luckily we've developed a product called SafeInjection that actually monitors flow in our system. If fluid flow ever drops below a certain safe level the SafeInjection sends out a 12 volt signal. This signal can be used to operate a solenoid that can safely decrease boost why opening a wastegate actuator or blow off vale. The signal can also be used to pull timing or change fueling/timing maps depending on your engine management.
I run our system on my daily driver which is pushing 20-22 psi of boost while running 91 octane pump gas. :-D
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Splain to me the need for a regulated intake fluid pump for added injection in a blown system that makes it's own air.
Doesn't the demand go up with the air pressure and presumably the added pressure on the fluid reservoir would follow the need ? :wink:
Say HI to your dad.
He was one of the first ones to use NOS for LSR.
The demand for water or water-methanol does go up with intake pressure/heat, so we inject more according to that signal. We do not, repeat not use a hose from boost pressure to run to a sealed reservoir using boost pressure to dribble fluid out of a hose into the intake. Very rudimentary, very inaccurate, very very poor atomization. We use a high-pressure pump (150-220psi) and a special atomization nozzle to get great atomization, and a digital controller to modulate when and how much is injected.
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Wasn't melted through- just around valve pockets & down side into top ring-I don't get involved in tuning the smokers-but this one put out about as much black smoke as the pheonix- he probably was giving it enough fuel- the washer fluid was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak-these puller engs are pushed to max so just a little to much is to much-wise old puller {shotgun red knew what was going to happen as soon as he heard washer fluid }side note- injector pump pulled so hard that the helical gear on cam broke the end off cam- some go to strt cut gears to avoid the problem-quick fix here was another cam- another wreck waiting to happen.
If it has black smoke - it is overfueled. The black smoke is the particulate emission. Over fueling leads to higher and higher EGTs and engine melting. water-Methanol can help burn the "extra" fuel more completely and reduce EGTs so the compression ignition engine is safer, not more likely to melt. What type of injectors and pump was he using?
Actually it was the opposite with my 2003 6.0 psd :?!We had Maxed out the stock injectors with 55lbs of Boost so the 100% Methanol was the Extra Fuel to Burn with the added Air! Ever see 35's at 150mph on the Dyno :-o!!Scary Top Fuel Distortion as they rolled of the Rims :cry:........
The Things I did to my poor Truck :oops:.
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Nate,
How do those controllers work. What can you control? Is there more to the story on those controllers then what your website says? Or Doesn't say? And lets say we want a system for a 4 cylinder is there a system for a nozzle / cylinder or just a single nozzle setup?
Jon
I'll give it a shot until he replies. Hooley is picking our stuff up tomorrow.
Nate will help you pick a nozzle/nozzles depending on the HP you will be making. We are going with two in the top hat on top of the Roots style blower.
Now with the controller we are getting you set the boost level that you want it to start spraying, I think 0 to 8 psi.. Then you set the boost level where it is spraying 100%. So let's say in our case we could set it so it starts spraying at 4 lbs. of boost and at 10 lbs. it is spraying 100%. It pumps at the same pressure all of the time, I think 150 psi, but the controller pulses the pump on and off to regulate the amount of water and/or water/methanol mix between none to 100 percent duty cycle where it is spraying all the time. At this point the total being sprayed is dependent on the nozzle size. Very similar to EFI.
Now I'll hope Nate responds and lets you know what really happens 8-) so I'll know myself.
c ya,
Sum
Sums pretty much got it. The pump is actually powered by a constant voltage and we use pulse width modulation to cycle the pump at a very high frequency. The gives us a way to vary pressure without having to vary voltage which is damaging to the pump's electric motor.
Jon, we can run our system in any configuration imaginable. The main reason we use one nozzle is for simplicity in installation and tuning. Our system atomizes the fluid so well that one nozzle can easily feed all cylinders because there are billions of tiny fluid particles that are easily carried along in the air stream giving you equal distribution. On Hooley's Studie we're running a nozzle on each side of the blower hat. We could actually support his current horsepower level using one nozzle but because of nozzle placement limitations we decided the split the flow and go with two nozzles.
Snow Performance has non-progressive systems that reference boost or vacuum as well as progressive systems that reference boost or MAF output (for EFI vehicles). We're currently developing a new system that uses 2D injection management.
Thanks,
Nate
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The spray pattern and atomization are a product of the correctly designed nozzle for the application.
The available manifold pressure moves the fluid on demand into the intake tract segment that is at the normal atmospheric pressure, and there ya go.
I sign Jack Dolan to racing stuff and I'll bet your dad will laugh at the reminder of My (aerodynamic devices) shark fins in comp coupe, or perhaps the .125" engine setback.
He will cry about My position on NOS.
"Keeping it simple allows more time to go faster." (me) :wink:
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. What type of injectors and pump was he using?
Big pump off john deer v-8 of some sort- I'm sure he if putting in to much fuel- he had a set of injectors drilled out so big it blew the tips off a couple of them- I drilled him a set- think .028 holes which is still probably overdoing it- I also think he is trying to run to much timing - eng has 10 & 1/8 in long rods on 4& 3/4 stroke so shouldn't need quite as much[ don't member for sure but think rods are bout 1&1/2 " overlength} but he gets his advice from the IH guys and thinks it applies to perkins. I just make the parts..russ
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[quote author=greggearhead They actually had to preheat the air on the test engine more (than on straight diesel) when injecting methanol, or they got too slow of a flame travel and a slower ignition.
[/quote]2 ea killers of high speed direct inj diesels- since the time for the fire to get lit from inj point is the same regardless of rpm- ign accelerators like nitrobenzene- or amonia compounds are a help and things like alky hurt- same effect as raising the rpm till the stuff gets mixed real well and detonates the gig apart. on big perkins I wanted to run a small pump & injector in deck plate- so as to start a small pilot flame before big injector hit- been told that is being done w/ electronic injectors on some of the new gen clean diesels..russ
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Russ you've got some interesting information but it sounds to me that your applications are more the exception than the standard to the types of diesel we've got our system on. On something that's well developed and tried and trued (OEM applications), water/methanol injection has been proven time and time again as being a very safe and effective way to increase horsepower, increase fuel efficiency, and decrease EGTs on diesel applications.
Thanks,
Nate
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Okay, Nate, here's a pedestrian question about your system and my potential need for it.
I drive an '04 Duramax (the 330 hp version) and have plenty of power for everything I need to do, so I'm not interested in increasing hp. EGT? Who cares, at least in my application (for what it's worth, there's no muffler on my system -- just the factory soot filter. The muffler went away soon after I got the truck).
So will the increased fuel economy you suggest I might get -- be worth the cost of your system? I won't go into details about my driving habits here, but they're pretty well-defined, and if you need to hear about how much I drive, etc -- let me know and I'll get in touch directly.
Thanks.
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Okay, Nate, here's a pedestrian question about your system and my potential need for it.
I drive an '04 Duramax (the 330 hp version) and have plenty of power for everything I need to do, so I'm not interested in increasing hp. EGT? Who cares, at least in my application (for what it's worth, there's no muffler on my system -- just the factory soot filter. The muffler went away soon after I got the truck).
So will the increased fuel economy you suggest I might get -- be worth the cost of your system? I won't go into details about my driving habits here, but they're pretty well-defined, and if you need to hear about how much I drive, etc -- let me know and I'll get in touch directly.
Thanks.
Hey Slim,
Do you have any modifications on the truck besides the muffler delete?
The fuel economy increases we claim are usually seen in high load states (towing) with modifications that increase air and fuel flow (air intakes, exhausts, and performance tuners/controllers/chips). Most aftermarket programmers just add in more fuel to make more power however there is a point of limited returns. Once a diesel reaches an overfueling condition it starts to lose efficiency and crank up EGTs. With water/methanol injection, we're able to burn more of the fuel more completely while it's still in the combustion chamber instead of afterburning it in the exhaust. With a more complete combustion we're harnessing more the the potential energy that the fuel has thereby increasing your efficiency. This allows you to make more power using the same amount of fuel or make the same amount of power using less fuel. This equates to an increase in fuel economy.
We've seen that increased air and fuel flow rates usually net better efficiency increases. There are still increases to be had on totally stock trucks however they may not be as significant. Typical increases are 1-2 mpg or 10-15%. If you give me a call or list out some more specific details we can actually figure out how many tanks of fuel it would take to pay for the kit.
Thanks,
Nate
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Big pump off john deer v-8 of some sort- I'm sure he if putting in to much fuel- he had a set of injectors drilled out so big it blew the tips off a couple of them- I drilled him a set- think .028 holes which is still probably overdoing it- I also think he is trying to run to much timing - eng has 10 & 1/8 in long rods on 4& 3/4 stroke so shouldn't need quite as much[ don't member for sure but think rods are bout 1&1/2 " overlength} but he gets his advice from the IH guys and thinks it applies to perkins. I just make the parts..russ
Heh heh. Yeah, over-injected and admittedly too advanced on injection timing = diesel detonation (explosive heat expansion - usually while the piston is still coming up). I'd be willing to bet the piston damage would have happened regardless of water or water-methanol injection, and likely sooner without it than with it.
Man, those are some big rods. I'd expect a much bigger stroke with rods that long, but I don't know industrial and heavy duty diesels like most of you guys.
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[quote I'd be willing to bet the piston damage would have happened regardless of water or water-methanol injection, and likely sooner without it than with it.
Not so -cept for the 2 pistons ruined by alky this eng has run for the last 10 years- its getting real tired-this eng has relatively small main bearings so guess what gives up first--when I made the al heads I sugested :evil:maybe a good set of rods & pistons would be in order- no deal - OK- 3 hooks & one of the cast pistons crumbled & made a big mess- then comes the good stuff & deck plate etc. The pullers all seem to dump in tons of fuel=lots of black smoke- I think they are basically burning off the hydrogen for a quick burn & the carbon goes out stack as all O2 is used up.The water keeps everything from melting down and the whistle in one piece- Big perkins has gone through its share of them-they seem to want just enough water to keep the fire to 1 foot or less out stack-which brings up something I don't quite understand- there is a limited class & when these guys lean on em hard there is at least 3 foot fire out stack & their whistles seem to stay together??don't understand how they do it.-side note on water- Guy was using a hyd cyl full of water w/ hose hooked to intake manifold-& water side of cyl to injector nozzels as boost came up the cyl would push in more water as pressure in manifold increased- self regulating- till he went to Louisville in feb & the water in his cyl got solid- that eng melted down @ less than 1/2 track...Perkins used a power washer pump- driven w/ gilmer belt. Interesting stuff as long as it's not my money-There was another big perkins running out of N Missouri-My guy stopped by to see how they were doing- nobody home so he checked w/ neighbor- guy told him - so far they have gone through 1500 of grandmas acres..russ
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Nate:
Other modifications include Rotella synthetic oil and Moon discs on the wheels. Oh, yeah, I've put lots of stickers on the truck.
I've got fuel consumption records for the last 98,000 miles or so, so will be able to see any changes that might occur. For the sake of the discussion, I get about 22 or so in "around-town" riding, which means the 22 miles of riding at 55 on the way to and from work each day during "summer". Winter (which i define as the six months or so when I've got the winterfront on the truck) I get about 19 mpg. Cross country with no trailer gives about 24-25 mpg, and cross country with the 8 x 16 by 9 1/2' tall trailer yeilds a titch under 15 mpg.
We do not ever exceed posted speed limits, and there are no interstate highways within 150 miles of us, so that means most driving is done at 55 or less.
Oh, yeah -- stock tires are LT245 - 16, and the economy numbers above reflect that size. This past winter I ran 265's and economy dropped about 5% (adjusting for various errors in circumference, of course).
Is that enough to get you started on making an EWAG?
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Using manifold pressure to supply and regulate water ingestion ?
We could invent something and call it "Water Ingestion".
What a concept !!!! :wink:
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Jon,
Got Stainless working on your injection tank yet :evil: See you Monday.
John
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no he's working on oil pans, chain guard and gas tank. Already have a water tank for the injection, same one used for the intercooler... :wink:
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Slim - you've got a PM.
Nate
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Nate:
You've got a response.
Jon
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Nate,
This is a good time to let us know on a group buy. I think there are many interested. And what can you do for us on a group buy for one of your water injection systems?
Jon
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Hey Slim,
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you about your question. We're on a bit of a limited staff and we're getting into our peak season so we're all pretty busy. Anyways here is what I have calculated:
Before water/methanol: Filling up your 25 gal fuel tank should cost you $75 assuming diesel costs $3/gal. At 15 mpg, your range is 375 miles. This equates to $.20/mile traveled.
After water/methanol: Filling up your tank still costs the same but with a 1-2 mpg increase your range has increased to 425 miles. This equates to $.17/mile traveled. Assuming that you travel the same distance as you did before (375 miles), you'd be now using 3 less gallons of fuel which equates to a $9 savings per tank.
With your $9 savings, it would take about 60 full tanks of fuel to have the kit pay for itself.
Nate
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Nate,
This is a good time to let us know on a group buy. I think there are many interested. And what can you do for us on a group buy for one of your water injection systems?
Jon
With your permission we can start a group buy when ever you like.
We would need a minimum commitment of 10 kits. The discount would be 15% and it would apply to any of our gas or diesel systems. Accessories such as upgraded reservoirs, solenoid upgrades, dual nozzle upgrades, and any other items are eligible for the discount so long as they're purchased with a kit.
If we could start a new thread I would need to have the following information:
Name
Vehicle/Engine Type
HP
Boost
Once I have that information I will suggest the appropriate kit(s). From there I can be contact and payment arrangements can be made. I WILL NOT process any payments until we have fulfilled the 10 kit minimum.
If this'll work for you Jon we can start this whenever you'd like.
Nate
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Nate:
I get that 15 mpg only when towing -- that is, the powertrain is working relatively hard. If I get approx. 10% better fuel economy then -- what kind of change (plus or minus) might I expect for the vast majority of the miles I drive at light load? 60 tanks of fuel towing will take me a couple of years to travel. That's fine -- at least it's a known known, The unknown known is whether I can expect an increase in range when driving around without the trailer. A "yes" answer, preferably one that tells me I'll see similar positive results, will be the make-or-break for whether I buy one.
Installation? One hour? Lots of drilling and machining? Four hours of shop labor at my local garage 'cause i don't handle tools real well? Fits right under the hood -- if I remove the inner fender?
I expect others might be gleaning some information from your responses to my questions, so I'm not asking just to assuage my idiocy. Two final questions -- delivery time after receipt of order? and Do you accept credit cards?
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Nate:
I get that 15 mpg only when towing -- that is, the powertrain is working relatively hard. If I get approx. 10% better fuel economy then -- what kind of change (plus or minus) might I expect for the vast majority of the miles I drive at light load? 60 tanks of fuel towing will take me a couple of years to travel. That's fine -- at least it's a known known, The unknown known is whether I can expect an increase in range when driving around without the trailer. A "yes" answer, preferably one that tells me I'll see similar positive results, will be the make-or-break for whether I buy one.
Installation? One hour? Lots of drilling and machining? Four hours of shop labor at my local garage 'cause i don't handle tools real well? Fits right under the hood -- if I remove the inner fender?
I expect others might be gleaning some information from your responses to my questions, so I'm not asking just to assuage my idiocy. Two final questions -- delivery time after receipt of order? and Do you accept credit cards?
At 15 mpg, your range is 375 miles. This equates to $.20/mile traveled.
After water/methanol: Filling up your tank still costs the same but with a 1-2 mpg increase your range has increased to 425 miles.
Jon say 425 miles on a tank and 60 tanks that is only 25,500 miles. I'll bet you will do almost that this year alone going to the salt and Maxton. Even if it is a 10% savings that is a pretty good return on your money in one year. Nate also mentioned $3.00 a gallon fuel, good luck on finding that any more.
c ya,
Sum
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Sum:
Don't know how I missed your response a week ago, but:
We tow out to Bonneville twice in a year, so there's about 8,000 miles, and tow to Maxton once or maybe twice a year, and that adds another 2,500 miles/ trip. Add side trips to Newfoundland, Pennsylvania (Mike, our builder) and add another 1,000 miles -- okay, 14,000 miles year towing. Yeah, we drive a whole bunch more miles to Bville and Maxton -- but without a trailer tagging long behind us.
So now we're up to close to two years to pay back the cost while towing, and therefore it's a valid question to see what difference, if any, I might expect in non-towing situations. Maybe it'd happen sooner than two years, maybe not.
As for Diesel cost: Today it dropped again here in Marquette. I haven't been paying over three bucks/gallon, and now it's a nickel cheaper.
I'm interested in the water/methanol system -- but want to take a hard look at the numbers. I remember doing what I thought was diligent research on fuel economy before I bought the diesel pickup -- and I discovered that I had been given bogus information by at least a dozen folks, mostly owners, as to what mileage I might get. They ALL gave me wildly high numbers -- like maybe the fuel mileage they got on a good day, down hill, with a tailwind, while running at economy cruise on one long freeway. I wanted/still want real life numbers. I have a record of all the fuel I've put in the truck for the past 96,000 miles, by the individual fill-up, and with location of the fuel stop. I can give a real answer to the question about what fuel economy I get -- I want similar answers about what I can expect.
So -- while the system might pay for itself in heavy-work situations, what can I expect all the time? That's still my question.
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Also to be considered is the additional cost of the methanol.
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So -- while the system might pay for itself in heavy-work situations, what can I expect all the time? That's still my question.
Slim,
First off, sorry for the delay. We're hitting our peak season and we're on a bit of a limited staff so the time I have to be on here is a bit limited. Either way, we unfortunately don't have much concrete information that supports the fuel economy gains achievable with our system. Until recently, fuel economy increases weren't of much concern to most our customers. We're seeing an emergence of interest in getting better fuel economy using water/methanol but the primary focus has been horsepower and cooling increases. So, I really wish I had some better numbers for you but the information I do have is actually on the lower side of feedback we've got from some of our customers.
If you're primary interest is fuel economy, water/methanol may not be for you. Its primary function is to act as a power adder and cooling agent. The increase in fuel economy is more of a secondary benefit. As far as all the time low-load states your fuel economy increases may be negligible. You can always pick up a kit in our group buy and let me know what kind of increases you get. :wink:
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Also to be considered is the additional cost of the methanol.
We've seen that the $9 savings per tank more than covers the cost of methanol.
Nate
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Nate:
Thanks for the straight answer. I wasn't trying to hurry you -- you have previously stated your busy-ness, so I was willing to sit back and wait. When someone asked -- I responded to his query.
So I'll kick back and wait to see what the total cost (at a possible group-buy price) will be, and then will factor in the possibility that I might not see much in the way of benefit to my overall driving habits. I'm not saying I won't buy -- I'm saying I'll look carefully to see if I want to invest a few bucks that might not come back to me immediately but might garner some data that you'd find of benefit to your sales efforts to other potential customers. This is why I'm keeping careful track of fuel consumption -- so I can go back to my selling dealer and offer to share the date with folks thinking of buying a truck similar to mine. The dealership gave me a good deal on the truck -- I can repay him for his kindness by helping him sell a truck to someone else.