Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: 4-barrel Mike on December 11, 2006, 12:17:14 PM
-
Street Roadster is one of the traditional classes, so I am keeping it (mostly) within real (not current magazine) tradition: '29 A roadster, Model A frame.
I'm spending extra time to keep it as inexpensive as possible, while building it to be as safe as possible.
The frame will be boxed from the front cross member rearward, stepped in the rear, and will have an X-member & pedal setup from Dagel's http://www.dagelsstreetrods.com/super_x_crossmember.htm
The Dagel parts are yet to be purchased.
The front end will be a vintage dropped axle with split wishbones, F-1 spindles and hubs and no brakes, F-1 steering. I have all of these parts in hand.
The rear will probably be a 9" Ford (a quick change would be preferred, but that may have to wait until next year) on a buggy spring with ladder bars. I have most of these parts.
The engine will be a built flathead "B" coupled to a T-5 5-speed. I have these parts.
What I started with (attached).
Mike
-
I blew the body completely apart and had it sandblasted. The attached pic shows the basic body mounted on a straight, level frame, cowl complete (except for filling the fuel filler) and the quarter panels temporarily mounted.
Mike
-
B block/crank (mock up) with flywheel cover/bellhousing/adapter with T-5 5-speed.
Mike
-
I wonder about the 9 inch. You don't need the strength or the drag. Could you think about something with less friction?
-
I say 9" because I can get a good one for close to free and the ratio selection is good. However, I'm very much open to suggestions.
Mike
-
I think that many use a nine inch because the drag guys do. I was very impresed with Gary William's 454 Monza which used the stock rear end. Never broke it. real cheap. Lots of gear choices in the 2s and 3s. Low drag. he made "Hooks" like the old Ford guys did, to retain the wheel if the axle broke. Never did.
-
I think that many use a nine inch because the drag guys do. I was very impresed with Gary William's 454 Monza which used the stock rear end. Never broke it. real cheap. Lots of gear choices in the 2s and 3s. Low drag. he made "Hooks" like the old Ford guys did, to retain the wheel if the axle broke. Never did.
I think about any of the GM 10 or 12 bolt rears are plenty strong for the salt. The problem I see is that you have to mess around with c-clip eliminators or what you mentioned (what are hooks anyway, I'm interested to know) you can find a ford and be done with it.
The other thing is you can have different center sections all setup if needed with different ratios and change them on the salt. I want to change the GM in my truck to one of the fords I have for that very reason. I can run one center on the salt and the other the rest of the year on the road. Real easy to change. Can't do that with the GM.
One problem is if you want below 2.47 gears you ain't going to get there with a ford :cry:.
c ya,
Sum
-
Sum
I have seen two cars where the so called hooks failed and both rear wheels came off when the cars spun. I believe Jon Amo has pictures at Bonneville of the roadster that lost the wheels. I wouldtry to find a quick change if I was running a 4-banger.
Glen
-
I wouldtry to find a quick change if I was running a 4-banger.
Glen
I got a real eye opener when I took quick change out of stock car & switched to grand nat . like adding a couple more cylinders, was running a tall blk 501 stroker @ time. that quick change wasted a lot of HP.
-
If you could find a model A QC, they have lower drag than a V8 QC. Which I think is lower than a Champ car QC. Anyway, a 'banger needs to use all the power it can, on the ground. A light, low drag drive train is important. Don't know about the hooks (safty clips?) failing. Guess it's about how they are made. RF
-
Thanks for the inputs! I think that Pete Richardson (1931 V4/VGC) is running a Model A quickchange, probably the one out of New Zealand.
Guess that's the best bet and I need to save a few more dollars and sell some more flathead V-8 stuff.
Mike
-
For what it's worth I have a V8 QC in my V4/GR with '56 Olds outer ends, bearings and brakes. No wheels haqve fallen off yet.
-
If you are looking for a quickchange here is the one I might possibly buy. I think it is better than the one out of NZ. This guy sells on Ebay all the time. Here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rodsville-v8-quickchange
Item #290061203816
With this unit all you need are the gears, spool, axle housings and axles. It already is set up for an open drive line.
Tom G.
-
Rich: Thanks!
Tom G.:
Yep. And I check the eBay quickchange listings daily. :|
Is the Rodville unit good? Seems like a low-volume (aren't they all?) semi-fly-by-night operation. I'd be more inclined to purchase the Winter's V-8 unit that Dick Spadaro retails.
Mike
-
Mike,
The Rodsville unit is a nice unit. I saw it at the roadster show in pomona. It is a direct copy of the Halibrand unit. Nice part about it is you can get ring and pinions as low numerically as 3.27 to 1.
Winters also makes a nice unit. Only problem I have with it is the ring and pinion selection is limited to one only, and as I recall it was 3.78 to 1.
Another good unit but too pricey for me is the Cyclone. I also saw this at the Roadster show but it sell for around $2200 compared to Rodsville unit at around $1300.
Point of interest, at the sema show I talked to a rep from Halibrand. He told me they were going to take legal action against Rodsville for copying their unit. Who knows what the outcome of that would be.
Hope this helps,
Tom G.
-
The 3.78 limitation may be for V8 centersections -- Winters makes a rear that has a 3.08 & it is also avaiable with a 2.00. It's a 10" ring gear & may have more drag (probably a LOT more) than a Model A, but would handle a LOT of power.
http://www.wintersperformance.com/catalogs/2005WintersPerformance/0201024.htm
Also a question, I vaguely recall seeing a 3.27 ring and pinion for the early ford V8 rear, which I *think* should fit a V8 QC, but haven't been able to find one via google. It's mostly curosity & to help me feel better about what's left of my memory.
roy
-
Roy,
The 3.78 ratio I was talking about is for the V8 center section that Winters makes. I called Beaver about 6 months ago and that is what he told me. He also told me that Ford gears would not work in their V8 unit.
You are 100% correct on the ring and pinion ratios for the other Winters rear ends. They are alot more expensive than the V8 unit, and not needed for a V4F/STR.
Yes 3.27 gears were made years ago for Ford rearends. They will fit in certain quickchanges. Some you must modify other I have been told they go right in. They are a very hard ring and pinion to find. Your memory is fine. :-)
Tom G.
-
Thanks Tom. I also see that the Hot Rod Works http://www.hotrodworks.com/ (http://www.hotrodworks.com/) now carrys them.
More questions!
Running the T-5 (1.00:1 4th & 0.76:1 5th) and looking for maybe 100 mph in my first outing, wouldn't the 3.78 ration be a better choice? Or 4:11? (gotta go back to Sum's site and figure out speeds/tire sizes, etc.)
And, scratching my head, isn't that why a quickchange is used? To change the gear ratios? Or is there more friction in gears other that 1:1?
Mike
-
Thanks Tom. ...........wouldn't the 3.78 ration be a better choice? Or 4:11? (gotta go back to Sum's site and figure out speeds/tire sizes, etc.)
And, scratching my head, isn't that why a quickchange is used? To change the gear ratios? Or is there more friction in gears other that 1:1?
Mike
The 4.11 or the 3.78 is the ring and pinion ratio. They stay fixed in the quick change you buy. Then there are the 2 "quick change" gears in the quick change that you change to change the final or over all ratio of the rearend. Those gears come in many teeth counts to let you change the over all ratio quickly.
If you go with the 4.11's and lower say a 4.56 then the overall ratios are suited to circle track guys and not what we are doing. You can't get a high gear like we want with the 4.11's and lower.
They are also rated by HP they will live with.
There is more and I hope someone will fill in the blanks as I researched these a year or two ago and quit when I felt for us a transmission that we could change gears in was better for us for now as we also needed something stronger than the Muncie we were using. Eventually though a quick change would be an added treat and could help us fine tune our final drive ratio easier than changing the overdrive in the transmission, but all of this costs money and has to be done in steps.
c ya,
Sum
-
Sum:
I guess my question was poorly worded. Perhaps better: Why should I worry about limited ring & pinion selection for a quick change, especially when the only selection is pretty close to what I need (i.e., it can be fine-tuned with the quickchange gears)?
Mike
-
Sum:
I guess my question was poorly worded. Perhaps better: Why should I worry about limited ring & pinion selection for a quick change, especially when the only selection is pretty close to what I need (i.e., it can be fine-tuned with the quickchange gears)?
Mike
Maybe my answer was poorly worded :wink:.
Lets take one brand as an example -- Halibrand. They offer two styles of quick change. One is the Champ used mostly by circle track guys and the other is call the V-8 Style mostly used by street rodders and us.
With the Champ you have a choice of 3 different ring and pinions -- 4.11 - 4.57 - 4.86. Using the 4.11 and different quick change gears the lowest final gear ratio is 7.71 and the highest 2.19. With the 4.57 R & P you get 8.56 and 2.43. With the 4.86 you get 9.11 and 2.59. So the highest combination here is 2.19.
With the V-8 Style you can only get a 3.78 R & P gear. With the available quick change gears for this rear you can go from a 7.95 final gear ratio down to a 1.80, which is much higher than the 2.19 with the Champ style.
I believe the Champ style will take a lot more HP than the V-8 style before breaking, but with the 4.11 R & P I think it can build more heat in our application and might need more HP to turn it (anyone?)
So as you go from manufacturer to manufacture you can't just change the R & P around. If you go the the "links" page on my site you can link to a lot of the different quick change rears.
Hope this helps some,
Sum
-
:wink:I repete;quick changes suck.. we would guess track etc & try to get gearing just right, when went to GN rear 5 or 6 steps { like 5.42 to 5.14 in qc} a 5.14 punkin was plenty close . tires arn't cheap either but they don't sap power like qc and a few dif sizes for rear would be an easy way to go, don't think a model A eng has that much power to waste, least the ones I have played with..
-
Mike,
I will throw out another idea. If you are trying to build the ultimate VF4 Street roadster rear end. I would suggest using a stock early ford. Am I crazy? Maybe, but hear me out. A rear end that has it's pinion intersect at 90 degrees to the ring gear IMO is the most efficient rear end you can use. Gearsets of 3.27, 3.54, 3.78, and 4.11 can be obtained for an early ford rearend. You can run tire diameters from 22", 23", 24", 25", 26", 27", and 28" for drive tires. By doing this you would have a rear end that IMO takes the least amout of HP to drive, thereby getting more of the engines HP to the ground.
Example: 3.54 gear with 24" tall tire @5000rpm = 101mph.
" " " " 25" " " " 105mph.
Example: 3.78 gear with 26" tall tire @5000rpm = 102mph.
28" 110mph
Good luck,
Tom G.
-
Ha! A reversal of plans!
At the beginning of this thread, I was going to use a 9" in the race car because....
I was going to pull it out of my B-motored Model A hot rod (which I originally built with a strong small block/automatic) and install a 3.54 open-drive banjo into the hot rod.
So...the best (and cheapest - I have all the parts already) plan may be to leave (for now) the 9" where it's at and put the banjo in the race car. Just have to get the hub ends changed, etc...
Thanks!
Mike
-
I had a 4.44 ring& pinion @ one time, came w/ my v-12 lincoln rear don't know how comon that set is or where mine went.
-
If I remember correctly, and it has been a long time, Harry Hofman Sr. ran a Model A QC in his fuel burning Pinto powered Pinto. I think he told me that the Pinto side gears from the Pinto differantial were pretty much the same as the early Ford forged on ones. So he welded Pinto outer tubes to the early Ford bells and installed the side gears on the axle, and then bolted on the bell and tube. Something like that. You might try to ask him and get the right story.
-
Thanks, Rich. I'll probably use the kit from the Hot Rod Works. Several of the guys in my 4-Barrel club use their axle/hub conversion kit.
Mike
-
With reference to what side gear to use in the early Ford rear end - you can you Dana 44 side gears, out of an early F100 tin hat rear end, and any other vehicle that was fitted with one of the rear ends - Studey comes to mind. Its better to get a donor rear end that is the same width as what you want, than to have to shorten the axles.
Maybe pintos used dana 44's.
any QC will drain power, as the quickchange must climb over the larger gear when reducing the final ratio, the taller the climb, the greater the loss of power.
Now if some-one in Calif had a good 4.44 Banjo crown wheel and pinion centre - I'd be interested. I'm looking at putting a '40 Packard overdrive trans in my coupe, and a 4.44 in overdrive equates to a 3.11:1 final ratio, with a 10.8:1 first gear - same as a stock '54 Chev trans.
-
Thanks for the suggestion Stovebolt.
Mike
-
4-Barrel --
I agree with DeSotoMan -- use the early Ford with a 3.54 or 3.78 and juggle tire sizes. And do your figuring with the straight-thru 1:1 ratio of your 4th gear. My Dream Wheel tells me that with a 28-inch rear tire with a 3.78 it's 100MPH at 4500 RPM. With a 3.54 it's 100 MPH at 4200. Reasonable R's for a banger, I think. And using the 4th gear doesn't waste power in the trans.
If you got some power left, shift to 5th!
The added "Safety Hubs" should be sufficient for a 100-MPH lightweight Roadster.
Stan
-
Best LSR rear axels---based on parasicitic loss!!
best to worst: The GM has nearly 5% less drag than a Ford 9"
Early Ford with Bevel gears best!
GM
Dana
Ford
-
Stan & Sparky:
Thanks for the input. I will be using a Ford banjo, initially with a 3.54, with a 3.78 available before the build is final.
Mike
-
I've been studying lots of theory since my last entry. Also became self-employed, which is a whole new world of worry.
Anyway, sold the ratty Model A body to a, ahem, rat rodder, for about what I now have into much nicer 27 T roadster (that was a hot rod in the early 70's, maybe back to the 60's in California). The T is much smaller & sleeker: better aero should be faster, right? It also required 100 or so fewer hours of repair work to be usable.
The chassis is mostly together: a good solid platform for the roll cage.
It went together pretty much as I had planned, with the usual problems of one set of parts needing to be mounted exactly where a second set of parts need to be.
Anyway, the pictures should tell the story.
Mike
-
Mike,
Nice pictures.
Did read in another topic that you are entered for Speed Week this year? If you are, it looks like you have got a lot of work to do in the next 60 days.
Keep us updated.
Poppy
-
Did read in another topic that you are entered for Speed Week this year? If you are, it looks like you have got a lot of work to do in the next 60 days.
Keep us updated.
Poppy
I'm learning that it's part of the joy & heartbreak of being self-employed. First you have to pay the bills. Then you have to set aside tax money for the end of the year. Then, if there's anything left, you get to play.
I did well enough, I think, in the first part of the year with major projects; 31 Tudor for a friend and 29 pickup for me (which I sold for 40% more than I expected :roll: ) and since I have no commitments to bring any cars into my shop until late August, that I think, singlemindedly, I can do it. Assuming, of course, that I don't spend any time and money buying superfulous vehicles as I did last week (digger).
Mike