Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Old-N-Slow on May 30, 2020, 03:29:21 PM

Title: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Old-N-Slow on May 30, 2020, 03:29:21 PM
Is it time to re-visit the role of Intrepid Potash in the
way we as racers use the Bonneville salt flats?

Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?


There seems to be a strong consensus that the salt on the salt flats is going away.  WHERE the salt is going occupies a lot of our speculation ? especially since we are agreed that we are just about OUT of the salt that makes the track usable.

The salt flats are the remainder of an ancient inland lake that was initially part of the rest of the world?s oceans.  When the ocean levels fell, the ?lake? that Bonneville became kept the dissolved salts in place in Utah.  Since the lake had no normal outlet, the rain water ? and the salt ? remained at Bonneville.  The only economical ways to remove that water ? and the salt - is by pumping.  This is actually one of the cheapest ways to do ?extraction,? just spread out the brine in a ?pan? and let the sun evaporate the excess water.

Much of our negative thinking ? with some justification ? gets focused on the potash removal to the ?south side? of the interstate, where it is concentrated and eventually sold.  Some of the sodium chloride ? table salt- which is a byproduct, is sold for winter road use.  Most of us believe there is a HUGE amount of sodium chloride remaining ? essentially useless to Intrepid ? below I-10.

The common knowledge is that Intrepid gathers the salts by pumping brine from the North side to the South side involves a lot of salt ? but 5-10 times as much water is also pumped.  Intrepid doesn?t want the water, but they can?t economically harvest the salt without having to also take the water the salt is dissolved in.

Reportedly, Intrepid did NOT pump more salty brine ?south? in 2019 because the spring was so wet, there was insufficient drying time to concentrate the salts enough to make an efficient harvest.

 
When Intrepid pumps south, the pumping creates a ?cone of depression? in the subsurface water.  With long term pumping, this deficit becomes larger.  Over a number of years, the ?reach? of this cone of depression can be MILES from the physical location of the actual pump.  Many pumps create additional cones ? sometimes interacting with each other.
 
More pumps means less ground water, and a lowered water table.  Does a lowered water table actually help us race on the salt flats?  Does the water sink in better, and allow the track to ?recover? from rain more quickly?  Does Intrepid?s pumping actually HELP the racers?

Perhaps part of 2019?s wet salt was due to Intrepid NOT pumping salt brine south.

As the winter and spring rains flooded the race track, and the water table had moved back toward the surface ? due to the lack of pumping ? and that the pre-race showers would have less ?space? to sink into the track.  Since the pumping had not created this ?thirsty? top layer of salt, the track remained wet for the season.

More reading:  https://geology.utah.gov/map-pub/survey-notes/history-of-potash-production-from-the-salduro-salt-marsh-bonneville-salt-flats-tooele-county/

Have we created our own problems by insisting that Intrepid stop pumping from the salt flats  ?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: salt on May 30, 2020, 04:30:43 PM
You're making an interesting point.
I believe the scenario you're outlining could indeed play a small role in the permanently sub-par salt conditions we are facing now that the salt crust is almost gone.
However, if we could somehow apply about 20 Million tons of salt to the racing surface and not pump any brine out thereafter, we would most likely be in much better shape. With no salt added, we're fogged.
But what do I know?  Ask people like Kiwi Sid, or Russ and Eric Eyres.
2 Cents from:
Willi
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: maj on May 30, 2020, 05:00:12 PM
Sure your going to get more years where the salt is wet if the pumps stop, much like our salt which can look hard and dry but still leave a good wet drip off the wheel arches and slicks up more if you rub your foot on the surface ,

Should the race track be on the other side of the highway in a long controlled environment pond
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Stan Back on May 30, 2020, 06:21:58 PM
Any comments on the geologist (that I understand the BLM is listening to) who says we're the ones causing the damage?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: manta22 on May 30, 2020, 08:21:40 PM
Any comments on the geologist (that I understand the BLM is listening to) who says we're the ones causing the damage?

Stan, you're referring to Brenda, the Smirking Scientist?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on May 30, 2020, 09:33:21 PM
Last year was a heavy snow pack year followed by an extremely wet spring with cool temperatures that rolled right into summer. The water table was saturated & there wasn't our usual hot temperatures to evaporate the surface moisture. A week before SW I knew it wasn't going to be a very good year for us & then it pi$$ed down on Thursday & Friday so everyone stood around for a few days with their finger up their aktion086 waiting for a shot at the Bonneville Goat Track.

It's not rocket science, it's slurry mining. It lakes water to move the salt out of there & lots of hot days to turn it back into a solid so Intrepid can process the $hit. The BLM has done a great job of confusing the facts to throw doubt into the salt depletion situation over the years because the last thing they want is to lose the swillion dollar paycheck from lease rights & product percentage! Their last act with the U of U Associate Professor Brenda Bowen & "her feasibility study" was worthy an Oscar nomination. "No conclusive evidence found". Oh really! & this coming from a one-eyed money receiver who suggested the sun was removing salt through evaporation! Whaaaat.........

The Bureau of Land Mismanagement has lost sight of why they're here in the first place, & that was to manage & protect "PUBLIC" lands but they are systematically closing off land to the public for profit! As usual, follow the money!!!!!!!

Count Willi  :-D knows the score, how much longer will it be usable for us, as in salt condition or the gate is closed. My hope is that the profit goes out of it for Intrepid & they shut it down before there is nothing left.
  Sid.     


Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Stan Back on May 30, 2020, 10:00:04 PM
I'm not dialed in on BLM practices ? but it seems to me that beside their supposed mission of caring for public lands, they also seem to stimulate the lawmakers when they can turn a dollar or two.  Like grazing, drilling, fracking, mining and more.

To me, most of these operations don't fall under the guise of protecting our national lands.  But most do not enhance the the natural state of those properties.  To me, driving on a solid, hard salt pan ain't hurting it. 

Since my first days being there in the early 70's (mind you ? now almost 50 years ago) I've wondered about those daily "coal cars" leaving.  If you're taking something out of the mix, how in the fuke can you claim to be preserving it.  I don't know what glues the salt together, but the recipe seemed to work years ago.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: will6er on May 30, 2020, 10:41:48 PM
If the salt is dissolved in the "standing" water, it seems to me that any pumping would pull most of this solution through the system and back to the pumps, leaving little for racing. The only thing that puts salt on the surface is evaporation.
Does this make sense???

Will Willis
#6302
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: jl222 on May 31, 2020, 12:00:28 AM
.
  That's what Kiwi Belly Tank has been saying for YEARS.


            JL222
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: panic on May 31, 2020, 09:31:29 AM
BLM is not merely indifferent to automobile sports, they are actively opposed, based on their behavior over the last 30 years.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: SPARKY on May 31, 2020, 11:33:22 AM
haul it back, spread it around, and quit pumping----when the water below the surface becomes saturated to the point it can not absorb anymore salt then the salt will start building back up---Intrepid doesn't want this because it will dilute the potash percentage when rainwater percolates from surface to subsurface

MY SWAG is the surface salt without potash doesn't set up as hard or is less durable and stable 
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on May 31, 2020, 12:22:22 PM
I'm not dialed in on BLM practices ? but it seems to me that beside their supposed mission of caring for public lands, they also seem to stimulate the lawmakers when they can turn a dollar or two.  Like grazing, drilling, fracking, mining and more.

To me, most of these operations don't fall under the guise of protecting our national lands.  But most do not enhance the the natural state of those properties.  To me, driving on a solid, hard salt pan ain't hurting it. 

Since my first days being there in the early 70's (mind you ? now almost 50 years ago) I've wondered about those daily "coal cars" leaving.  If you're taking something out of the mix, how in the fuke can you claim to be preserving it.  I don't know what glues the salt together, but the recipe seemed to work years ago.
Stan brings up a relevant point here that I've been talking about for a while now & most of the long time racers like us recognize once it's pointed out.
When the pumping program started back in the 90's, the first thing that was obvious was the change in the surface salt from the brilliant white color to a yellow-ish white. The next thing we noticed was how easily we could bang in a tent peg for our shade & a few days later they would fall out. Before the pumping you were having trouble banging them in & it took two men & a boy to get them back out again a week later.
The structure of the salt had changed like the binder was gone from the mix & back then that threw up a flag on the pumping program to me. It was supposed to be returning salt to the flats from the Mine tailings but like I said back then, this has just loosened up the salt to make it easier to move right back down the drain to the Mine.
It's not rocket science here! Filling up the tub with water, letting it saturate with salt & then pulling the plug is not a depositing program, it's a removal program. If it was pumped in from the ponds & left to evaporate, that would be a depositing program.
 
Some of you will remember when I located what I thought was the heart of the salt flats in that green solid crystal section & in the two years of checking it I wasn't sure if it was moving or depleting. The last time I was trying to plot it I got rained out of the place & never really came up with an answer. I did ask Brenda Bowen about this & she looked at me like I was from another planet (no wise cracks please) & just changed the subject. With all this knowledge in hand I had a lot of questions to ask directly at the public meeting to be held after the public salt tour with the BLM, Intrepid, UT Gov, U of U, Save The Salt & the TV camera. That "public meeting" became a private meeting & I wasn't included, imagine that! Previously I had been contacted by certain people from our side of this salt problem who wanted me to not rock the boat so to speak.
That was the point I decided those long trips to the salt when I was the only one there & maybe an occasional terrorist were over.
The salt is dying & our racing legacy might die with it. My only hope is that the profit margin goes out of mining potash from the Bonneville Salt Flats before it becomes an unusable wast land like the Magcorp mess at the Knolls exit on I-80.
 Be safe, see you when ever, hopefully!
  Sid. 
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: gowing on May 31, 2020, 01:31:35 PM
I don't see either BLM or Intrepid changing anything until they milk the cow completely dry.

  In my ideal world, I see a group/trust/co-op/whatever of high net worth individuals
acquiring Intrepid and operating it responsibly and in the best interest of the salt.

  If Intrepid was operated just enough to pay it's bills and fund the restoration efforts, how long would the salt last?
 Restoration is probably not possible, so management of what is left should be a priority.

  I believe that the mine could be a very effective resource in "saving the salt" instead of a tool to destroy a national treasure in the name of profit.
  All it takes is gaining control of the business.  In reality........All that takes is money.

  Unfortunately, I don't have enough in the piggy bank to buy it,  the majority of us don't.
individually that is....... but together, I see a way out.

  We can all bitch and complain about the government not looking out for the best interests of
the land, or we can act ourselves. 

  Not by paying for "awareness" or lobbyist, lawyers and delays, but by actually grabbing the reins and leading.
 
Put your money where your mouth is.

 

Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: jl222 on May 31, 2020, 02:19:36 PM

  How much money mouth you talking about?

       JL222
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: gowing on May 31, 2020, 03:08:43 PM
The price?
Waaay more than us normal broke racers could ever afford,
but maybe not so much for a successful hedge fund manager looking for a write-off.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: jl222 on May 31, 2020, 03:40:27 PM
The price?
Waaay more than us normal broke racers could ever afford,
but maybe not so much for a successful hedge fund manager looking for a write-off.

 Then redo your comment.

               JL222
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: puppy on May 31, 2020, 09:14:19 PM
I've never been there but.... Why does the track have to end where the salt ends? Cant they prepare the area beyond the salt and run on it as well, effectively lengthening the course?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: salt27 on May 31, 2020, 09:29:45 PM
I've never been there but.... Why does the track have to end where the salt ends? Cant they prepare the area beyond the salt and run on it as well, effectively lengthening the course?

Mud.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: aircap on June 01, 2020, 12:14:00 AM
Quote
I've never been there but.... Why does the track have to end where the salt ends? Cant they prepare the area beyond the salt and run on it as well, effectively lengthening the course?

If you HAD ever been there, you would immediately realize just how dumb that idea is.

Think about it - it's SALT. And for much of the year it's SALT WATER.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Mike Borders on June 01, 2020, 04:12:44 AM
I've never been there but.... Why does the track have to end where the salt ends? Cant they prepare the area beyond the salt and run on it as well, effectively lengthening the course?

Decades ago you could have, but back then we had 13 miles of salt instead of barely 6.

 :cry:
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on June 01, 2020, 10:27:19 AM
I've never been there but.... Why does the track have to end where the salt ends? Cant they prepare the area beyond the salt and run on it as well, effectively lengthening the course?
That was a fair question from somebody that has never been there & is interested in our situation so I would like to apologize on behalf of our forum member that snapped you off like you were the one who took our salt away.
The salt crust, what's left of it, sits on top of salt saturated brine dirt, Once exposed to the sun it does dry with a crust but it's a gamble whether it will support a vehicle or not. Once you break through that dirt crust you have sunk into caramel pudding.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 01, 2020, 11:03:06 AM
Thank you very much, Sid.  I'll dig up and post a picture or two of what it looks like at the five or six or seven mile and you'll understand better, Puppy.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: jww36 on June 02, 2020, 12:21:32 PM
I've said this before and I'll say it again.

How long do you think the BLM would get away with allowing logging of old growth redwoods/trees on BLM property?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: jl222 on June 02, 2020, 12:34:04 PM
I've said this before and I'll say it again.

How long do you think the BLM would get away with allowing logging of old growth redwoods/trees on BLM property?

 Or logging without replanting?

          JL222
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: desotoman on June 02, 2020, 12:56:26 PM
Some information off the SCTA Facebook page.

Tom G.

SCTA Southern California Timing Association
Yesterday at 9:05 AM ?

Letter from Stuart Gosswein:

All,

Just a quick follow-up from last Tuesday?s conference call to discuss the Restore Bonneville program.

The SEMA Action Network (SAN) and the American Motorcyclist Association have sent out action alerts asking readers to thank Utah state lawmakers for appropriating $1 million to help create the program and requesting that the money be retained when lawmakers revisit the state budget in June. Here are links to the alerts, which have probably reached about 1,500 SAN/SEMA/AMA members in Utah. We have posted on social media as well. Feel free to repost.

http://semasan.com/?/urgent-thank-utah-state-lawmakers-thei?

https://cqrcengage.com/amacycle/app/write-a-letter?

Attached are four photos that Larry took about two weeks ago that show amount of surface salt at Bonneville. Mike had a phone call with Eric Rogers, who noted that there had been minimal salt lay down this year due to the rainy weather conditions. The BLM has not yet read the pumps to provide a specific amount.

Crossing fingers that sun and heat will now help create favorable racing conditions.

Best,

Stuart

Stuart Gosswein
Sr. Director, Federal Government Affairs
Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA)
1317 F Street, NW, Suite 500, Washington, DC 20004
202/777-1220
stuartg@sema.org

https://cqrcengage.com/amacycle/app/write-a-letter?
Thank Utah state lawmakers for their efforts to save the Bonneville Salt Flats The Bonneville Salt Flats is a world-famous destination for land-speed racing, including AMA- and FIM-sanctioned competition. In fact, motorcycles have been a historical part of this unique resource and national treasure....
cqrcengage.com
Thank Utah state lawmakers for their efforts to save the Bonneville Salt Flats
Thank Utah state lawmakers for their efforts to save the Bonneville Salt Flats The Bonneville Salt Flats is a world-famous?
Thank Utah state lawmakers for their efforts to save the Bonneville Salt Flats The Bonneville Salt Flats is a world-famous destination for land-speed racing, including AMA- and FIM-sanctioned competition. In fact, motorcycles have been a historical part of this unique resource and national treasure....
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Old-N-Slow on June 02, 2020, 02:42:04 PM
My main point was not really about how to restore the Flats,
nor was it really about where the salt is going.

It is mostly about HOW the racing on the EXISTING Flats (notice I
capitalize it when I am talking about THE Bonneville Salt Flats)
can be better understood.

There is a realm of sports endeavor that is all
about having safe and effective playing fields.

We have long known that unsure footing on Football,
soccer and Rugby fields leads to surprising results,
sloppy play, and unnecessary injury.

For most important venues (think an outdoor Superbowl),
having the RIGHT moisture level is so important that designers
install underground piping, special soil amendments and drainage features
to assure that the field is ready for play when needed.

Think of the consequences of a Superbowl field underwater on Superbowl Sunday.

If football is so concerned with water level,
doesn't it make sense that our beloved Flats
would be affected in the same way?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: jl222 on June 02, 2020, 05:24:41 PM
Some information off the SCTA Facebook page.

Tom G.

SCTA Southern California Timing Association
Yesterday at 9:05 AM ?

Letter from Stuart Gosswein:

All,

Just a quick follow-up from last Tuesday?s conference call to discuss the Restore Bonneville program.

The SEMA Action Network (SAN) and the American Motorcyclist Association have sent out action alerts asking readers to thank Utah state lawmakers for appropriating $1 million to help create the program and requesting that the money be retained when lawmakers revisit the state budget in June. Here are links to the alerts, which have probably reached about 1,500 SAN/SEMA/AMA members in Utah. We have posted on social media as well. Feel free to repost.

http://semasan.com/?/urgent-thank-utah-state-lawmakers-thei?

https://cqrcengage.com/amacycle/app/write-a-letter?

Attached are four photos that Larry took about two weeks ago that show amount of surface salt at Bonneville. Mike had a phone call with Eric Rogers, who noted that there had been minimal salt lay down this year due to the rainy weather conditions. The BLM has not yet read the pumps to provide a specific amount.

Crossing fingers that sun and heat will now help create favorable racing conditions.

Best,

Stuart

Stuart Gosswein
Sr. Director, Federal Government Affairs
Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA)
1317 F Street, NW, Suite 500, Washington, DC 20004
202/777-1220
stuartg@sema.org

https://cqrcengage.com/amacycle/app/write-a-letter?
Thank Utah state lawmakers for their efforts to save the Bonneville Salt Flats The Bonneville Salt Flats is a world-famous destination for land-speed racing, including AMA- and FIM-sanctioned competition. In fact, motorcycles have been a historical part of this unique resource and national treasure....
cqrcengage.com
Thank Utah state lawmakers for their efforts to save the Bonneville Salt Flats
Thank Utah state lawmakers for their efforts to save the Bonneville Salt Flats The Bonneville Salt Flats is a world-famous?
Thank Utah state lawmakers for their efforts to save the Bonneville Salt Flats The Bonneville Salt Flats is a world-famous destination for land-speed racing, including AMA- and FIM-sanctioned competition. In fact, motorcycles have been a historical part of this unique resource and national treasure....

  I million? What happened to the 5 million?

             JL222
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Stan Back on June 02, 2020, 09:37:57 PM
Well, John, if I remember somewhere near correctly, Utah put up $1 Million if the feds kicked in $10 Million or so.  You and I know how much the present administration is conservation biased.  So it didn't happen.

Sounds like they're asking to extend it for another year.  Think there will be a different answer?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on June 03, 2020, 01:24:53 AM
Unfortunately I see it as political gum flapping with the intent to appear to be doing something about the problem but even if I'm totally wrong about it & real money became available, how would it be spent & by who, the corrupt BLM?
So the BLM would make a big public song & dance about the whole "look at me" situation while the money was spent on the pumping program & we all know that pumping has only increased the loss rate because the $hit just flows right back to Intrepid.
Anything that is put back on Bonneville will go to the plant unless the drain is permanently plugged & they stop pumping back as well. The only way that will happen is if Intrepid shuts down it's operation!
  Sid.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Old-N-Slow on June 03, 2020, 05:28:12 PM
If one gets close enough to a well designed football field,
one can appreciate that the field is crowned, just like a road. 

That crown encourages, in both cases, the water to run off to the sides.

Bonneville however is "built"in a LOW spot ,
where the rain and run-off from
the mountains actually gathers!

(If you use Google Earth and run your cursor around,
the legend on the bottom of the page will tell you the altitude. 
There isn't much change, but the low spot
is where the track usually winds up.)

Being in the low spot is probably GOOD
for salt being dissolved in the surrounding hills,
and settling onto where we need it - the TRACK.

But the same condition make into the LAST place
to get dry in the summer, and the spot MOST likely
 to have a high water table - relative to the racing surface.

That has NOTHING to do with the pumping !
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: puppy on June 03, 2020, 10:17:48 PM
That was a fair question from somebody that has never been there & is interested in our situation so I would like to apologize on behalf of our forum member that snapped you off like you were the one who took our salt away.
The salt crust, what's left of it, sits on top of salt saturated brine dirt, Once exposed to the sun it does dry with a crust but it's a gamble whether it will support a vehicle or not. Once you break through that dirt crust you have sunk into caramel pudding.
  Sid.
Oh I see. Very interesting...
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on June 03, 2020, 10:47:38 PM
If one gets close enough to a well designed football field,
one can appreciate that the field is crowned, just like a road. 

That crown encourages, in both cases, the water to run off to the sides.

Bonneville however is "built"in a LOW spot ,
where the rain and run-off from
the mountains actually gathers!

(If you use Google Earth and run your cursor around,
the legend on the bottom of the page will tell you the altitude. 
There isn't much change, but the low spot
is where the track usually winds up.)

Being in the low spot is probably GOOD
for salt being dissolved in the surrounding hills,
and settling onto where we need it - the TRACK.

But the same condition make into the LAST place
to get dry in the summer, and the spot MOST likely
 to have a high water table - relative to the racing surface.

That has NOTHING to do with the pumping !
That's incorrect. It appears you don't have knowledge of how the salt is removed.
There is a pumping system that Intrepid use to pump tailings from their product waste ponds back to the salt flats. That is known as "the pumping program" & that was in theory supposed to build up the salt crust thickness. While that is in progress the drains going back to the Mining operation are plugged, allowing that water to mix with any fresh water runoff from the surrounding mountains to saturate with salt.
Once Intrepid has decided they have the best saturation point, they pull the plugs & drain it through canals to the plant. If it stopped there your theory would hold some water but that's not the case.
Between the salt flats & the Silver Island Mountains there are a number of pumps pulling from the water table under the flats that flow through canals, one of which goes right across The Bend where many people camp out.
At the far East end of the flats there is a much larger pumping system that is also pulling from the water table that feeds another canal that is at least 20ft wide & also flows to the plant.
The slight depression you speak of is actually enhanced by that pumping system & the lowest point of that depression has the most salt crust thickness but that crust is now down to about One Inch at best! Back in the 80's when I first started racing there was salt way down beyond 13 miles where it started getting thin & we used to run the streamliner way down there to prepare for return record runs. Due to the Salt loss that situation is now "Eight Miles closer" to the start line.
  Sid.
     

 
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: johnneilson on June 04, 2020, 09:39:25 AM
Well, John, if I remember somewhere near correctly, Utah put up $1 Million if the feds kicked in $10 Million or so.  You and I know how much the present administration is conservation biased.  So it didn't happen.

Sounds like they're asking to extend it for another year.  Think there will be a different answer?

Originally it was 5 mil.
Not that long ago...........
https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2019/11/state-of-utah-approves-5-million-to-restore-bonneville-salt-flats?_ga=2.12520884.1006774979.1591277688-981174179.1591277688&__utma=95790915.981174179.1591277688.1591277797.1591277797.1&__utmb=95790915.0.10.1591277797&__utmc=95790915&__utmx=-&__utmz=95790915.1591277797.1.1.utmcsr=(direct)|utmccn=(direct)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=-&__utmk=199056231
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: ratpatrol66 on June 04, 2020, 05:09:18 PM
I drove by Intrepid a few years ago and there what appeared to be large piles of salt sitting on the ground near some rail cars. They were loading salt into these cars. I took a few pictures showing a couple rail cars full of salt or maybe potash? I will post pictures when I get home later tonight.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: ratpatrol66 on June 05, 2020, 03:26:41 PM
Having troubles finding the pics, might be on old phone?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: gowing on June 05, 2020, 05:50:19 PM
from the SEMA article:
"The $1 million committed by the state of Utah has leveraged up to $4 million from the BLM for this year, with additional federal contributions planned in future years. The creation of the Restore Bonneville program comes at a crucial juncture. The current surface depth is measured in inches rather than feet, and the 13-mile racetrack is now less than 8 miles. The program funding from the State of Utah is critical to saving this national treasure and creating good jobs for Utahns. "
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Dakin Engineering on June 06, 2020, 08:14:21 AM
Just what does this "Restore Bonneville " program do?

Anybody?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: SPARKY on June 06, 2020, 08:51:44 AM
Well there are several interested parties

Racer dreams:  15-18 miles of good thick hard salt
College Professors:   an entire career of grants for studies and nothing finally determined
State of Utah:  enough improvement that keeps people coming and gives them a bang for their $
BLM:
Dept Interior:
Federal Pols:
SEMA:
Save the Salt
SCTA:
Most LIKELY OUT COME:  :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:

JEEZ am I cynical or what this morning!!
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: desotoman on June 06, 2020, 12:11:33 PM

Most LIKELY OUT COME:  :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:

JEEZ am I cynical or what this morning!!


Nope, just being realistic.

We will just have to wait and see what size Band-Aid is applied to the problem. JMO.

Tom G.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: jdincau on June 06, 2020, 02:36:27 PM


Being in the low spot is probably GOOD
for salt being dissolved in the surrounding hills,
and settling onto where we need it - the TRACK.


This is how it worked, but it happened a couple of million years ago, filling a huge lake that evaporated. It is not happening now.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: johnneilson on June 07, 2020, 11:21:26 AM

Most LIKELY OUT COME:  :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:

JEEZ am I cynical or what this morning!!


Nope, just being realistic.

We will just have to wait and see what size Band-Aid is applied to the problem. JMO.

Tom G.

Band-aid might not be sufficient, may need a roll or two of duct tape......
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on June 07, 2020, 12:51:06 PM
Here's my opinion & you know I say it like I see it!
 After all the money is raised & spent, all the bull$hit is spread out thinner than the salt & all the pats on the back subside, Bonneville will be less than it is today before the profit margin becomes too small for Mining to continue.
 When the drains are plugged & the pumps finally shut down, the salt loss will stop but by that time, will there be any crust left for us to race on or will The Bureau of Land Mismanagement come up with some reason we can't go there anymore??
  Sid.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Dynoroom on June 07, 2020, 02:20:21 PM
Just what does this "Restore Bonneville " program do?

Anybody?

I typed "restore bonneville" into google. Several items one from SEMA & one from Save the Salt give insight into what is currently going on. It is dated but there is current information out there too. Just got to look.
My view is doing something is better than nothing.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: ski123 on June 07, 2020, 03:39:46 PM
It's getting bad when the racers are crustier then the salt.  Good luck, good health and good grief!
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: maj on June 07, 2020, 05:08:28 PM
Here's my opinion & you know I say it like I see it!
 After all the money is raised & spent, all the bull$hit is spread out thinner than the salt & all the pats on the back subside, Bonneville will be less than it is today before the profit margin becomes too small for Mining to continue.
 When the drains are plugged & the pumps finally shut down, the salt loss will stop but by that time, will there be any crust left for us to race on or will The Bureau of Land Mismanagement come up with some reason we can't go there anymore??
  Sid.

Unfortunately i think the mud will yield enough salt for the pumps to continue operating long after there is surface salt
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: floydjer on June 08, 2020, 08:03:12 AM
No matter what is done to restore the surface..we will all be long gone by the time the change is noticed. :x
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: ratpatrol66 on June 17, 2020, 07:38:04 PM
I didn't want to start a new thread so here is some news?

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2020/06/17/save-the-salt-presses-utah-legislature-for-key-funding-for-bonneville-restoration-program
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on June 17, 2020, 09:08:54 PM
"According to a fact sheet that Gosswein shared in 2002, 1.2 mil tons pumped onto the racing surface per year lead to a thicker salt crust."

I don't recall seeing an increase in thickness! Can anybody help me out here?

If it's not left there to evaporate, how does it deposit anything?
Intrepid has already taken the potash out before pumping it back onto the flats, then after saturation time they drain it back to their ponds where they get more potash.
Logic is just absolutely drowned in BS here!
  Sid.
ps, Thanks for posting that by the way.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: John Burk on June 17, 2020, 10:27:56 PM
Sumner who is a good researcher found that the mining company was getting the water to transport the salt back to the salt flats from near the salt flats . That meant it was already brine . The salt being pumped to the racing surface   came from racing surface . Nothing gained .
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Old-N-Slow on June 18, 2020, 04:24:25 PM
John:  Fresh water in the quantities needed to pump north
are at a real premium.  It could be that the mine selects water
with a LOWER salt content when is flows south than when it
is pumped north, resulting in a net flow of salt north.

It would of course help the race course if the extra salt was
ALL deposited on the track, so the water table
would be further below the racing surface.

Instead of being in the middle of the bottom land like it is now .................
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: John Burk on June 18, 2020, 10:32:47 PM
"Fresh water in the quantities needed to pump north are at a real premium".

That's the big problem, even if the mining company wanted to return the salt .

"It could be that the mine selects water
with a LOWER salt content when is flows south than when it
is pumped north".

That might be true if they had the intention of doing the right thing rather than just get us off their back till they leave .
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Old-N-Slow on July 06, 2020, 12:32:52 PM
I guess that part of my thinking was to try to find how
to help the salt with what we already have........

IF the brine/water table UNDER the track was lowered
in the critical period BEFORE the race season,
than we would have some protection from late
spring / early summer rains. 

The water "deficit" would allow the track to
return to a usable  surface more quickly.

The removed brine could stay
on the NORTH side of I-80 !

The wells are there.

The pumps are there.

How could we make this work ?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: kiwi belly tank on July 07, 2020, 02:03:21 AM
STOP F$(K!#G MINING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
  Sid.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Stan Back on July 07, 2020, 05:50:37 PM
At last!!!

A new idea!!!

Whadaja think the Bureau of Land Mining will think of it?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 26, 2020, 12:49:34 AM
Ya'll know congress has approved funds for "restoration"
I have yet to hear the check has been cashed, so to speak.
But if the check ain't cashed, it's trash.
End of September. ...

If they need a hint on how to spend it on something other than a 25+ year failure (fraud)....

How about buying back the lease?

Good night and God bless.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 26, 2020, 08:28:00 AM
Shoot!
Federal judge removes acting director of BLM.

There goes that idea
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: speedrattle on September 28, 2020, 07:45:32 PM
i'm kind of late to the conversation, but i know where some of the salt is going, because i took it away.

over on the east side are the containment ponds for morton, among other salt distributors.

i would show up in my 48 foot flat bed, take care of the paperwork, pull into the loading area and then they would load me with 14 or 16 pallets of bagged salt--- 47,000 pounds per truckload. i would then drive to home improvement stores in places like sioux falls, where they would sell it to people to put on their driveways. the setup was good for a lot of trucks per day. i don't know how many, but they had harness gantries for tarping the load, and only big operations do that.

lots of salt in the east comes from salt mines underground, but why drill a mine when you have the salt flats?

47,000 pounds doesn't sound like much, until you do 100 trucks a day for 60 years.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Jack Gifford on September 29, 2020, 01:17:16 AM
Thanks for the numbers that indicate the volume of salt depletion.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: stay`tee on September 29, 2020, 07:06:09 AM
100 trucks a day (24hours), so your saying that for the last 60years a truck loaded with salt has pulled out every 2.5 minutes, huh :roll:
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Stan Back on September 29, 2020, 12:11:55 PM
. . . plus the rail cars.

(This is a great example of the government "managing" our national resources.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: salt on September 29, 2020, 07:23:23 PM
Stay ' tee says:
"100 trucks a day (24hours), so your saying that for the last 60years a truck loaded with salt has pulled out every 2.5 minutes, huh "

Is that how you do your math down under?

Willi
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: stay`tee on September 29, 2020, 08:16:15 PM
Stay ' tee says:
"100 trucks a day (24hours), so your saying that for the last 60years a truck loaded with salt has pulled out every 2.5 minutes, huh "

Is that how you do your math down under?

Willi

sorry, my bad, that should read "a truck pulls out every 14.4 minutes" 24 hours a day for the last 60 years,,


Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: trimmers on September 30, 2020, 08:46:07 AM
I don't think I can buy into the theory that these truckloads of salt have had an adverse effect on where we run.  The facility referred to (Morton) is in Grantsville - at Interstate 80 exit #84.  That's 80 miles away!   There are several mountain ridges (hills?) in between. There's another one a few miles west of there, but it's still a long way off.  I believe these outfits get their salt from evaporation ponds on the edge of Great Salt Lake itself, rather than surface deposits of salt.

We need to concentrate our efforts in terminating the removal of salt from the area where we run - by Intrepid Potash!

Jeff in Boise
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: jl222 on September 30, 2020, 02:24:35 PM

  IF in fact Intrepid is loading trucks with bags of salt, of course it affects the salt flats.

  Speedrattels post needs to be verified.

  Any other witness.

  SCTA/BNI and  SAVE THE SALT  are on the salt right now go look and ask.

  Save The Salt or BLM know anything about these trucks and what about the railroad cars how many and how much.

 Does Intrepid's lease allow selling salt if so how much?
                       
                          JL222
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: trimmers on September 30, 2020, 05:56:21 PM
The only company he referred to by name was Morton.  And he also said they were "on the east side".  So, I don't think intrepid is what he was talking about.   But Intrepid is screwing things up enough - even without trucks!

Jeff in Boise
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: desotoman on October 01, 2020, 02:38:31 PM


 Does Intrepid's lease allow selling salt if so how much?
                       
                          JL222

Go to their website. click on Salt.

"Our southwestern locations in Utah (Moab and Wendover) and New Mexico (Carlsbad) enjoy easy access to truck and rail. Intrepid Salt is favorably priced for bulk rail and truck, as well as packaged delivery in 50-lb bags or 2,000-lb totes."

Wendover is listed.

Tom G.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Dakin Engineering on October 01, 2020, 06:38:07 PM
My last two trips to the Salt, we layed over for a day of decompression and family time.
Had a front row seat of twin belly dumpers coming down main street.
I hear there is a huge mound of dead salt stockpiled in Nevada.
 Sam
#6062
Retired  ( now I have more time to complain )
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Stan Back on October 01, 2020, 09:17:33 PM
"twin belly dumpers"

I'm confused.  Was that from the strip club?  I guess I could giggle it, but what were they wearing and what were the carrying?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Dakin Engineering on October 02, 2020, 06:10:24 AM
Here ya go Stan
No need to thank me, glad to help

Sam
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on October 02, 2020, 10:08:44 AM
It's pretty clear that stripping is still part of the equation, Stan!  lol8
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Old-N-Slow on October 06, 2020, 01:56:48 PM
Sure salt is still going out, and the going
will probably be increasing as winter is seting in,
and the roads are icing ....................

Does anybody know if Intrepid it pumping again ?
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Dakin Engineering on October 06, 2020, 06:33:09 PM
By the speeds and condition of the Salt, without pumping,

LEAVE IT ALONE


Sam
6062
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: desotoman on October 06, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
By the speeds and condition of the Salt, without pumping,

LEAVE IT ALONE


Sam
6062

Leaving it alone might be fine for only having 200-250 entries. But what happens when things get back to normal and we have 600 entries and some cars upwards of 9000 lbs with serious horsepower and 4 wheel drive.  No lull in announcing for Slim until late Wednesday. Now you are talking a completely different scenario.  Just saying.

Tom G.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: DallasV on October 06, 2020, 11:27:11 PM
By the speeds and condition of the Salt, without pumping,

LEAVE IT ALONE


Sam
6062

There was no pumping this year. I would say that the historical record dry year is why the paper thin salt was as hard as it was and was usable. I think on a wet year a track would be nowhere to be found this year. We need a bunch of pumping or year after year of extreme drought. I fear is that in 5-10 years at best it's all done and we are all barstool racing. Just one guys opinion.
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Dakin Engineering on October 07, 2020, 09:02:16 AM
Let's examine the results of the Salt Laydown project.









Sam
Title: Re: Are we shooting ourselves in the foot ?
Post by: Old-N-Slow on January 14, 2021, 12:24:26 PM
Well !..

It's mid January, and the
"Camera on the Salt" shows no
sign of rain in almost a year.

There is a LITTLE snow in the mountains,
but will it be enough to send any water
ONTO the track in a very dry year?

Will there be any replenishment / refreshment
of the track to make any progress toward IMPROVEMENT?

Will the higher powers give us another
Speed Week with SIX days of interrupted racing.