Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: datadoc on May 20, 2020, 12:56:31 AM
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I high jacked the thread that was under "2020 rule book" to explain as best as I remember the saga of the no butterfly engine discussed in that thread. I couldn't believe that someone remembered that engine after over 50 years. I should add that engine change my life.
A bit of background:
I first ran at the flats when I was 19 in 1961 with my 1958 Chev 348 cu in. Without any research I would say that was the worst possible car to use at the flats, but at the time it was the only car I had. While working on the 58 I brought a 53 stude for $100 to have transportation In 1962 I built the stude with the same 348 engine and the car then went 25 mph faster. By 1964 I changed to small blocks in the stude. Around 1967 a gentleman owed me some money for driving his boat and paid me with a 170 cu in slant 6. So it seemed only natural to run it at the flats in the stude along with the 2 small blocks (E and C class)
Here's how it came about to run the slant 6 without butterflies. Simple I didn't know any better. I mounted the engine in the car straight up by using a steel plate to adapt the 6 to my chev bell housing. I cut the flywheel flange off of a old chev and bolted it to the 6 flywheel flange and that allowed me to use my chev flywheel and clutch assembly. The engine originally came to me with two carburetors. I knew I wanted to use my Hilborn system. My first idea was to saw off the intake runners at the log that mounted the 2 carburetors and make up 6 butterflies on a single shaft. The engine came with a mag and somehow I made a distributor drive and a Hilborn pump drive for the 6 and I mounted the barrel valve on the intake flange and I used a union to block off the 2 extra nozzle lines. At this point it was clear that there wasn't enough time to make up the butterflies. Like I said I didn't know any better and thinking that some diesel engines didn't use a air throttle, what would it hurt not to run butterflies. I went to a plumbing store and brought 6 chrome drain pipes that had a nice flare on one end. I used some short radiator hoses to make the connection from the runners to the drain pipes. I did run into a couple of problems, to prime the motor usually resulted in a puddle of fire on the ground. Remember this was in the day when gas couple and sedan needed to self start. With the engine mounted straight up the intake stacks then ran down hill. Hence the puddle of fuel when you tried to squirt gas into the stack. My fix for that was to install the stock 6 fuel pump with a one way check valve tied into the main line going to the barrel valve. That fixed the prime problem and the engine started great and idled smooth. The engine came with a split header setup so I ran two long exhaust pipes to rear window. I was hoping to solve two problems, streamline the under car a bit and exhaust into the rear window area which I thought was a low pressure point. This belief came from the fact that the stude would spin the tires and not go over 176 without adding weight in the trunk. I learned this the hard way by spinning the car at about the 1 1/2 mile on a record run going way off course and in fact shutting off the engine. It was running so good (small block) that I restarted the car got back on the course still had about 1/2 mile to the 2 and ended up 10 mph over the record. I doubt if you could get away with that today.
So on to Bonneville I went. Going through inspection was interesting because I don't think they had ever seen a no butterfly system and made me add a second return spring to the small arm of the Hilborn barrel valve. As it happen Isky and Mickey Thompson were standing there and explained to me why such a system wouldn't work. Something to do with flammability limits. So naturally I reached in the car and hit the starter switch and the engine fired right up and idled. Running the car on the track didn't work out because it turns out the engine builder for the boat guy didn't have any clearance for the pistons and the car only ran a little ways before it seized up.
Over that winter Clifford Clark my friend who wanted to make injectors lined up several different engines to try and run without butterflies but none of them would even begin to idle. I rebuilt the engine and got ready for the 1968 meet. I added one feature to adjust the fuel while going down the track and tuned by the tach reading. I made 10 runs in one day that year (the meet was later in the year). Trying different spark and mix I got the car to go as fast as it could and was ready for record runs in the morning. One thing that I noticed was no matter what, the plugs always looked rich. After removing the head for inspection I could see the reason why the engine could idle and why the plugs looked rich. There was a dark soot line that came from the intake valves and circled around the spark plugs. After 1968 I never ran that car again.
I started to work as a mechanic for LA county and I looked after what the county called VIP cars. Board of supervisor, fire and police chiefs etc. Along the way I also was put in charge of emissions testing for the county. What I would do is tune police cars to factory specs and take them to a emissions testing lab in LA. The person in charge of the lab was a gentleman (PhD) who was the father of figuring out why LA had such a smog problem. He showed me the lawn mower engine where he ran his first experiments. I of course told him about my slant 6. At that point in time the holy grail of engines design was what was called "stratified charge". Which you would need if you were looking to run a gas engine without throttling. He thought that I must know something about stratified engines which of course I had no clue. He was also in contact with another 2 gentlemen who had just left Stanford Research Institute to start a new company working on a sonic carburetor. So based on my vast knowledge (LOL) I left the county and went to work with the SRI guys. This is the point were that slant 6 change my life. We hired a young engineer who after a few years of working together we started the data recording company called Racepak which is now owned by Holley.
Interesting point: Several years down the road, I was at a dinner meeting on emissions and setting next to a scientist type who was telling me about all the testing he had performed trying to find engines that could run unthrottled only one they found could and that was the slant 6 and only if you put the injector nozzle right at the intake port face. Of course if your a hot rodder where else would you weld in the bungs to mount the Hilborn nozzles.
As of a few years ago the car with the slant 6 was still around. I give the car to a friend when I started to drive the unlimited hydro's he in turn give it to someone who on fuel ran 183. By accident I was on the phone talking to someone about a Racepak for a Bonneville car and he told me besides his vett he had a older stude so we started talking about it and he was telling me about some of it's features and each one I would remark that I had a car like that and then finally he said well it has a 6 cylinder engine in it without any butterflies.
After looking over what I have written I apologize for the thread being so long. Once I got going I started to remember so many things about that engine and the simpler times.
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Great history. Thanks for sharing :cheers:
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Great story, thanks.
Love my Racepak stuff.
BR
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That was a great story. Thanks so much for sharing it with us. Please share more of your stories.
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So, how'd it get in the roadster (or am I wrong in that?).
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After looking over what I have written I apologize for the thread being so long. Once I got going I started to remember so many things about that engine and the simpler times.
Datadoc, no need to be apologetic for a great read, thanks for posting it. Any more stories you can tell us about the slant 6? How many mains did that motor have?
Tom G.
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Datadoc, did induction for this engine use round slides like old SU carbs? Still not sure how this worked.
John
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Hi, I'll try and answer questions to the best that I can remember, it was over 50 years ago.
Thinking about the roadster it would make sense that Jimmy ran the slant engine. Because I only ran that engine 2 times at the flats and I had that motor in the stude for the first days of the meet and then I ran the other 2 classes (E&C) gas coupe. That means the slant engine was out of the car. We ran both chev's in Jimmy's roadster maybe one or two years. I put the C motor in Nolan White's car in 1973 and Rick got in the 2 club with a down run I think in the 260 range and it cracked a cylinder wall on the return and the average was around 245. That left Jimmy without any engines so it would be very possible he ran the slant engine at the lakes. Now that I think about it I drove the roadster at the lakes but I don't remember what motor was in the car. When I gave my stude to Jimmy the car didn't have a engine in it so he must have had it and married the two because someone ran it on fuel. I've wonder it the fuel guys ever broke it or if it still has the original engine.
I was really busy in that time frame. I was building formula 5000 engines for 3 different teams, I still had my job at the sonic carb company, and I started to drive the unlimited hydro's. I had to get help with the engines because I lost the rudder at around 170 and that slowed me up for a while.
The slant 6 had 4 mains if I remember correctly. They made two versions of the slant engine one was die cast aluminum and the other was a cast iron block. I'm sure my engine was the iron block.
The standard manifold for the engine was 3 U shaped runners into the carb flange. The engine I got from the boat guy had 6 straight runners that tied into a common log where two carbs were mounted. If I remember the intake port was near a oval (could be wrong) what I got the runners were round tubing which is why it was easy with some hose clamps, hose, and drain pipe made the intake look at bit like the Offie engines in that era.
I never took any pictures of the engine which now I wish that I had.
I wonder if anyone remembers the guys that ran the engine in F fuel. I long ago lost the info from the guy who said he had the stude. In fact he did send me some pictures of the car and I could see that someone had repainted it. I lost the pictures also.
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This is a really interesting read Ron. I also had a rudder failure at about 170 in my blown 7 liter hydro back in the 80's in Australia, people aren't supposed to survive those!
Sid.
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I had to get help with the engines because I lost the rudder at around 170 and that slowed me up for a while.
I bet it did!
John
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Back in the 70s when I was a Sidewinder a couple of guys had a Stude with a slant 6 that Fuel Coupe class.
Ralph Seth and Jeff Haltom were their names. I don't know where they are now.
DW
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Team Fercockta was composed of Jimmy Amrhein and Joe "Goofie (sp?) Turner and ran the engine in F?/Fuel Roadster ? near as I can remember.
I believe they later ran the lakes roadster with a blown fuel motor to round out the field at Fuel Altered drag meets.
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Were the intake runners wide open all of the time and the only engine speed regulation was based on the amount of gasoline that was squirted in to the cylinders?
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I'd think you'd not easily open and close the intake runners (without butterflies ? which it didn't have.
On most mechanical fuel injection systems, the "barrel valve" regulates the fuel flow. In fact, when you hook the return springs (2 or 3 ? another story) they act upon the barrel valve.
I don't understand the engineering explanation of how it worked. But the barrel valve is the fuel flow regulator. The butterflies (usually hooked adjustably to the barrel valve) regulate the air flow. Thirty+ years of driving them on the street gave me some knowledge of them. Working swing shift meant they were never right.
But, if you could light off the motor ? and keep it running ? and open the fuel supply as you revved the engine ? you probably could make it run strong. Not on the low end. But what are the first three gears for? ? That's right! Getting to fourth. Ands where is the most important place you care to regulate? You got it right! Top of fourth gear.
It may surprise you that I don't have an engineering degree ? but I do own an American Flyer layout!
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I'll try again . . . I tried posting this before ? but it drifted off to space or something. I'll put another shovel of coal in the trusty I-Mac power system and try again.
I found the "pioneer" of the no-butterfly revolution ? Roy Creel. I believe expediency led to the use. But he was the first V4 competitor to beat 200 at both Bonneville and El Mirage ? and his records still stand.
That much worked. I believe the motor resides in Speedy Bill's museum. Here are the records . . .
Bonneville ? V4 Unblown Fuel Streamliner, Creel & Burian, Roy Creel, 8/89 ? 216.077
El Mirage ? V4 Unblown Lakester, Creel & Burian, Roy Creel, 11/90 ? 202.474
And now I'll post this ? and maybe modify with a picture!
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That didn't work! Hard to find good coal this year . . .
Try this . . .
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You'll notice his head was not perfect. He didn't even spell his name right on it. Musta got the "L" out of there.
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I found the "pioneer" of the no-butterfly revolution ? Roy Creel.
Okay Stan now I am confused. So are you saying that Roy ran no butterfly injectors before Datadoc who ran them in 1967?
Tom G.
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I wasn't confused. I was just wrong. Happens even more frequently nowadays.
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I wasn't confused. I was just wrong. Happens even more frequently nowadays.
Comes with age, ability to write and wisdom Stan... two outta three ain't bad :naughty :cheers:
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I wasn't confused. I was just wrong. Happens even more frequently nowadays.
Stan, thanks for the reply. I understand what you are saying as I am starting to get into that stage in life now.
Tom G.
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To DW230, That sounds like my old car and engine that you mentioned. The type of car, the time period, fuel used and the slant 6 doesn't seem like there could be but one car that fits that description. I wonder if it really did run the 180 plus that I was told. One mph per cubic inch sounds pretty good for the time period.
Now to try and shed more light on why that type of engine could idle without butterflies. First off both Isky and Mickey and others were with out a doubt correct in their thinking that a engine should not be able to idle without a throttle for the air. You run into the problem of the flammability limits of gasoline. With a cylinder's full complement of air without any throttling and adding enough fuel to to stay within the flammability limits there is no way a normal engine would not rev up. So if your intentions were to run a engine without a throttle one then needs what is called "stratified charge" that is where there would be a rich enough mixture present at the spark plug to support combustion but only enough fuel to make the power to overcome idle friction and no more. One of the driving forces to develop this type of engine process was the fact that at 50 mph the pumping losses to pull down to roughly 1/2 atmosphere and discharge at atmosphere was about equal to the energy to propel the car. During the 60's I knew both Texaco (with UPS as a partner) and Ford were working on such engines. As I remember they had very strange looking spark plugs along with two nozzles per cylinder. I don't remember the outcome.
Going by what the Cal Tech professor told me at that dinner meeting I referred to, it sounds like the only engine of that era that could in fact run as a stratified charge engine was the slant 6. Given what I observed during the teardown in impound which showed a line coming from the intake valve and swirling around the plug must of meant that there was a rich mixture present at the plug just by the natural process of the port and plug location along with the nozzle position. The stratified charge part of this equation might account for the always rich looking spark plugs. In 1967 when I first ran the engine I made a number of laps in the warmup area (which you no longer can do and before the engine seized up because of the lack of piston clearance) I could never find a jet where the plugs changed color. That is why in the following year I made a in car adjustable return jet. In 1968 the normal meet was canceled after anyone was in Wendover. So without anything to do for a few days I did drive the car around the city and you would never know there was anything different about it. Today I know enough about engines that I would never even entertain the idea of running without a throttle, but that was then. Like someone wrote what a great deal it is to still have Bonneville where a dumb ass kid can try such things.
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Someone was kind enough to call my house with Jimmy Amrheim's phone number. I called him and got to chat with him after about 50 years. He did say that we ran that slant 6 in his car at El Mirage and it set a record. That part doesn't surprise me because how many people would run a 3 liter engine in a roadster. Must have been a easy record. I forgot to ask him how fast it went. So Stan Back is correct about seeing the roadster at El Mirage with the "no butterflies" slant 6.
Going back and remembering about this engine brought to mind how blessed I was that a number of owners trusted me to drive their stuff through the years. I got to sit in front or behind a fair amount of different engine combinations. Actually probably more than my share. The following is my list as I remember.
Ford: V-8 60, 144 Falcon, Boss 302, Gurney/Westlake, and a pair of inline SOHC 427 Cammers.
GM: Chev 4 cyl, Small block, Big block, overhead Pontiac 6 cyl, V-6 Buick, and a 215 aluminum Olds.
AMC: 287 V-8
Chrysler: Slant 6, 392, 273, and a 277 Plymouth.
Aircraft Engines: 1710 Allison, Rolls-Royce 1650 Merlin, and a 2240 Griffon.
Note: All of these engines except one did have butterflies.