Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: TheHardOne on November 18, 2019, 05:41:23 PM
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Howdy folks... Just staking this little piece of internet as a placeholder for a coming build thread. My partner and I initially purchased an S-10 (Leatherneck Express build thread a few pages back) to enter into land speed racing. We reached a point where our fancy new Ultra Shield full-containment seat with Bonneville halo wouldn't sit where we wanted it to without interfering with the existing roll cage. After a little thought and discussion we came to the conclusion that if we're talking cage work (or whole new cage even), let's look at other platforms to build on. We weren't so far into the S-10 to be committed to it... Enter the '93 Trans Am roller (clean car with no t-top). Purchased dirt cheap from a Facebook posting, all there (save for engine and trans... perfect!). That's mostly where it stands currently.
The plan for the near future is to gut the interior, have a cage installed, get all the other safety goodies, and get the dang thing running and able to go racing (competitive or not)! We'll worry about turning the heat up later... for now, our engine, trans, and fancy seat need a home. We're ultimately looking to run in the Modified Gas Coupe or Altered category. So my first question... Who all do I need to include in an e-mail to open a dialog with tech about our plans and whatnot? Christmas bonus is roll cage money so I'd like to get some clarification before we go talk to the shop. :cheers:
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So to start things off, an e-mail was fired off to Lee Kennedy, Steve Davies, and Mike LeFevers based off of foggy memory from talking to tech at Speed Week 2017 and taking a guess based on looking at the rule book. Christmas bonus time is around the corner and the car needs a cage... need to get stuff straight so when we finally bring something to the salt, it won't be the cage that fails tech.
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Spoke with Rob @ Holzman Race Cars here in Wichita, KS Wednesday afternoon about putting a cage in the Trans Am. He said they've done a few Bonneville cars, the first car they worked on being the blue Mustang Danny Thompson ran back in '08 (I think thats when it was). My partner and I had a fun, informative chat with him. They've built a handful of Bonneville cars so he's familiar with the specifics. Good looking shop out in semi-rural Wichita. He's booked out until March but my partner and I are thinking that's where we'll ultimately go. We'll get the engine pulled from the S-10 project soon and try to get it ready to be sold off. Partner said he spoke with our trans builder. He should have the 4L80E done here in a couple weeks. 'Tis all for now. Happy Thanksgiving to you folks stateside... to anybody else reading, cheers! :cheers:
(I'll try and get some pictures uploaded here soon... We all love pics, right?)
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Would that be the car that we saw Danny skating across the salt on his head a few years ago? As I remember, the car survived fairly well...
We know that Danny did.
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Would that be the car that we saw Danny skating across the salt on his head a few years ago? As I remember, the car survived fairly well...
We know that Danny did.
The way I understood it, the one that tried to take flight was a second car they ran in 2010. The one Holzman took part in ran in 2008 and still survives today, nestled away in a collection I believe. Not sure if it's still racing.
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Ah, yes. I'd forgot about the second car. Thnaks.
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Hope the holidays have found you well, folks! It's been busy here, had the last week off work but down time has been sparse. Here's a quick update on the car...
We're scheduled to go in for roll cage installation April 4th, 2020. We decided to go with Holzman Race Cars here in Wichita for the work. Excited for that day to come around. We recently (Christmas day) finished gutting the interior... almost didn't get there though. A dang bottle of whiskey appeared from nowhere and almost ceased productivity. Thankfully we persevered and got the task finished!
Had a quick chat with Kiwi Steve a couple weeks ago about the car. In the conversation, he pointed out our fancy Ultra Shield full containment seat with Bonneville halo may not be enough to satisfy the rule book... Those side bolsters on the halo may not be deep enough to go completely to the front of the helmet. Going to need to get a current helmet and make sure. Also said we need to check but will likely need to get SFI-rated foam for the halo... Just something else to problem solve and figure out a workaround to. There will most certainly be plenty more communication between now and when we get to go racing. I'd hate to make that drive only to fail tech.
Got some parts and pieces ordered yesterday for mounting our transmission and relocating the rear torque arm to the trans x-member. Trans (4L80E) is still with the builder, engine (LQ4 - 6.0L iron block) is currently occupying a tire in the shop. We're on the lookout for a K-member from a '98-'02 LS1 powered Trans Am or Camaro to simplify engine mounts and header routing. We get that found and we can get the powertrain set in. Still early on but we're chipping away at it... by spring the thrash will be on haha.
'tis all for now, folks... :cheers:
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If you need to borrow a current helmet I have one with a crunch that you can use for fitting without fear of putting a scratch on it :wink:
:cheers:
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If you need to borrow a current helmet I have one with a crunch that you can use for fitting without fear of putting a scratch on it :wink:
:cheers:
Stainless, that'd be great. Unless your number has changed I can give you a ring when we get a chance to get back on things.
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Had a quick chat with Kiwi Steve a couple weeks ago about the car. In the conversation, he pointed out our fancy Ultra Shield full containment seat with Bonneville halo may not be enough to satisfy the rule book... Those side bolsters on the halo may not be deep enough to go completely to the front of the helmet. Going to need to get a current helmet and make sure. Also said we need to check but will likely need to get SFI-rated foam for the halo... Just something else to problem solve and figure out a workaround to. There will most certainly be plenty more communication between now and when we get to go racing. I'd hate to make that drive only to fail tech.
I have that same Ultrashield seat and during my inspection this past year they told me I should swap over to the SFI foam in the Halo area. Though it was deep enough on the side bolsters. Kind of odd since I ran the year prior with no comments. They put a note in my logbook so I'll be changing the foam for sure.
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All of which is curious as the rule book does NOT say the head rest padding is to be SFI rated. Just the roll cage padding. It would help everyone if they changed that rule if that's what they want.
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I have that same Ultrashield seat and during my inspection this past year they told me I should swap over to the SFI foam in the Halo area. Though it was deep enough on the side bolsters. Kind of odd since I ran the year prior with no comments. They put a note in my logbook so I'll be changing the foam for sure.
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I found some SFI- rated stuff online the other day... can't quite recall the site I found it on though. I'll get some ordered up once we get a helmet to verify dimensions. Wasn't too horribly expensive. Nice to know the side bolsters were deep enough.
All of which is curious as the rule book does NOT say the head rest padding is to be SFI rated. Just the roll cage padding. It would help everyone if they changed that rule if that's what they want.
Agreed. I wonder if it's just specific to the bolsters or head rest and all? Didn't think to ask when I was talking to him. At any rate, I'll just change it all and avoid any potential headache.
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If you ask an inspector ( or Steve Davies- chief car guy) the answer is: " our interpretation is....." Usually they make you change it on the spot, not give a year grace. Best to just go ahead and do it and save the aggravation.
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Racers, as our roll cage install date gets closer and closer I am looking into seats belts. What is everyone using? Latch and Link or Camlock style? Just looking for opinions. Thanks.
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I think is totally your call. The latch and link needs a Velcro strap over the handle so you can't accidently catch it with arm straps and open it (used to be piece of duct tape. No longer legal). That may be harder to get open with gloves on if you are in a hurry. Also I find it harder to get all the straps in the latch if you are trying to do it yourself rather than a crew member. So I prefer the cam lock where each strap can go in with whatever sequence you want and I find now I can do it myself as my old crew members have trouble leaning into the car to hook up. They do pull up to tighten however. I do need help from crew attaching the Hans ( or whatever your preferred is) straps to the helmet. Camlock comes open easily for fast exit. I haven't looked at pricing, there may be a difference. Anyway, my thoughts. Either works.
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The more confined your arms are the harder it is to use the cam style. So it is a toss up if you have lots of room for arm movement.
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The more confined your arms are the harder it is to use the cam style. So it is a toss up if you have lots of room for arm movement.
Stainless- do you mean sitting in a very small cockpit like your car where elbows can't move out? Seems in that setting getting at either type might be hard.
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Ours is actually a duckbill lever, so it does not get Velcro because it can't be accidentally unlatched. The streamliner... way roomier had a cam... but it was hard because as you said the elbows were confined....
now if you had one more elbow installed in your forearm..... :roll: :cheers:
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Spent some time on the race car yesterday... really need to try and make it a regular thing. Too much time away from home due to work makes it kind of hard. To start the day we got the engine up off of it's tire and onto a stand. The specifics on the engine - LQ4 6.0L iron block, 243 heads, BTR oil pump, custom grind Comp Cam, ICT Billet water pump adapters and solid motor mounts... nothing too fancy. We drained the oil out of it and pulled the pan. It was then rolled it over and we were reminded there was still a touch of coolant in the block. Darn... Since we had already made the mess, it was only logical to give it a brake cleaner bath and good scrub down. Clean up on aisle 5.
Mr. ROKTSHP had picked up an F-Body LS1-type oil pan so our goal was to get it put on and get the long block ready to set into the car. Pulled the windage tray, had a look around, then put it and the new oil pump pickup tube on. Went to set the pan on and we got an instant no-go from Houston. Upon closer inspection, the pickup tube didn't jive with the pan. Didn't feel much like driving to Wichita to get the right one ran down. We'll save that for next weekend... On to other things!
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Trying to figure out a program to re-size images and then figure out how to get it on the forum without anything pushing back has been a friggin chore this morning. Finally think I have a formula figured out, onward to the second part of yesterday!!
After not being able to get the engine where we wanted to, we opted to finish gutting the car. It was a nice day, the car doesn't have an indoor home yet so why not? Goals for the day were to finish removing the harness, clean up all the miscellaneous hardware, vacuum the thing out, re-install pedal assembly, and get the factory column put back in. The short of the long is we got all that accomplished... Not too much that got in our way. We have a Firebird hatch we tried putting on but it was coming apart at the seams and didn't want to work with the striker. Back to the Trans Am hatch we go... Plenty of discussion on wants, needs, and wishes for the car. This message brought to you by Crown Royal Peach. :friday
It won't be long before we send it off to get caged. The pile of parts is growing, should have everything we need to get the engine/trans combo set in and start making sure clearances and fitment won't be an issue. We thought of keeping the 10-bolt rear end in for now just for simplicity's sake but that's quickly becoming an issue. Have to buy c-clip eliminators, axle shafts that'll accept 1/2" diameter studs, etc... Thinking we'll just have to buy once, cry once and get a 9" and be done. Have to finish working out the details there. That's about all I have for now, I'm sure you'll be hearing from myself or ROKTSHP soon... :cheers:
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Good Morning Land Speed Racers.
My question today is not about the racing part of bonneville. But my get around buggy. I have a Cushman that I plan on bringing out with the racecar. Do I need a permit of any type to operate this atv out their? I have searched online but all i can find is that Utah is atv friendly.
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Good Morning Land Speed Racers.
My question today is not about the racing part of bonneville. But my get around buggy. I have a Cushman that I plan on bringing out with the racecar. Do I need a permit of any type to operate this atv out their? I have searched online but all i can find is that Utah is atv friendly.
See # 11. I don't know how you actually go about getting the permit. Someone local does I am sure.
http://nebula.wsimg.com/2b0387a695f81a80554f134994a12a82?AccessKeyId=1B489604A3781742F233&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
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If it does not have a tag on it you need an OHV permit/sticker. You can buy one on the way to the salt at most Maverik service stations in Wyoming and western Colorado. If you buy it in August it is good through the next August.
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I just looked it up.
As of 1-1-2020 Utah does not reciprocate ORV permits with any other states.
Don
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Hey, thank you to all that have answered our questions and made suggestions to help us on our quest to being participants at the Bonneville Salt Flats. I feel that this would be a lot harder without all of the help and support from our fellow racers.
So again Thank you. :cheers:
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To yet another night working on the racecar. But we made some progress. it finally feels like we are moving forward. Instead of always taking something apart, the car is starting to come together. But the wife and I were about to get the LT1 k-member removed and the LS1 k-member installed. Hopefully we will be sitting the engine in the car for the first time this weekend. :clap
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Howdy! Hope the week has found y'all well... been busy for me. Mr. ROKTSHP too. We managed to find a few hours this morning to work on the car and made some good headway. In lieu of writing a book, I'll just highlight a few things since our last update...
Car into shop and put on jackstands.
Rear-end dropped to remove gas tank before cage install.
Installed LS1 K-member from '98 Camaro Z-28.
Installed engine into car. Screwdrivers in place of engine bolts until we can get the right length bolt (though I'm told those screwdrivers will contain all the horsepowers).
Bolted trans to engine to check clearances, waiting on Jegs to get the right crossmember to us. Sometime next week... Hellooooo scissor jack!
Disabled ability to lock the doors on the car.
Re-installed rear end to facilitate ability to roll (handy, that is).
Ordered parts to convert car to manual steering through Midwest Chassis.
Lots and lots of tinkering (setting intake on engine, hanging manifolds, etc to check clearances).
Set containment seat in car to get a feel for where it needs to be positioned. Will be mounted by cage builder.
We've unofficially dubbed the car Snowball... because race car and thats what it does. So outside of that, not much else for me to update at the moment. Gotta go get packed for the next week of being on the road. Until next time... :cheers:
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more pics...
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Hey all, quick question... at what point is header thrust something to ponder or am I just overthinking things? Only reason I ask is we've got a guy who will build us some custom headers for our Trans Am and we've thought about doing something like Pro Mod bullhorns out the front of the fender, down low and angled back up to, in theory, help keep the nose down while underway. I've been reading and (internet) researching where I can and it seems header thrust really only comes up when talking about Top Fuel cars making tons of horsepower on nitro engines. Eventually we'll be supercharged, hopefully making decent power, but for now it's just a little N/A gas 366" thing and will be that way for a while. Just looking for a little info or maybe some direction on where/what to read and inform myself further... outside of a couple threads here on landracing, I haven't seen much else. Thanks!
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There are several threads here about that question. Whether it would be helpful is certainly debatable as you can see. Might be more trouble than worth and doing a proper A-B-A test hard for sure. Maybe you have seen all these so sorry if just a duplicate of what you know already.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=search2
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There are some who believe that it's not just thrust you are looking for. Some potential to "Fill the Void" or vacuum (read that as drag) behind the vehicle may be of benefit.
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Pay attention to what Mike says. That guy made a stock body go 300. Clicky the link in his sig. If you can, you should have a talk with him. Which reminds me , I should call him and get a refill on some smarts. 8-)
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Appreciate the input on the header and exhaust question... I've spent quite a bit of my spare time reading on the subject the past few days. We've pretty well resolved to route it to the back but as to the specifics, well, that's a problem for future me.
Just as a quick update on the car - ordered a lightweight steering column from Midwest Chassis for installation into the Trans Am. It arrived last Friday, was installed Sunday. Works well with our manual steering rack conversion. We opted for the SFI spec steering wheel hub. Didn't see anything in the rules requiring it but better safe than sorry... heck, it was only a few bucks difference in the end so why not?
We should finally be going in Saturday to drop the car off at the shop to begin rollcage installation. We're about a month off of our original date now but it's not a big deal... we had hoped to be able to thrash and bring a running car to WoS this year and at least get tech'd and make a few runs but life happens so we'll still plan to attend WoS, only as spectators and not racers.
:cheers:
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There's always World Finals (about 30%). Plus you may want to take the unfinished car to WOS and have the SCTA inspectors gaze at it for suggestions and/or alterations.
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Quick update from the road... figured out how to resize and upload images from my phone haha. Finally got the car hauled off to the shop for cage installation this past weekend. Now we're just waiting on a call to go back after roll structure is complete enough to get the seat mounting figured out. Initial guesstimate was somewhere around 3 weeks to build the cage, we'll see how it all unfolds. There ought to be plenty of pics once we have something to post... until the next time
:cheers:
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Hi all! Went and visited the cage fabricator Saturday, May 16. He called, said there was enough structure done and we needed to go decide where our seat was to be positioned. Grabbed our safety equipment and headed in... I'll let pictures do most of the talking this time around. We did opt to have 1 3/4" 0.120 wall DOM tubing used all around for a little extra beef. Gussets were done using 1" 0.120 wall tube. There's still door bars and a helmet bar to be added so it's not done yet. Getting there, though...
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Just a couple more pictures of Mr. ROKTSHP checking out his thoughts on the seat placement and how much we need to cut off the steering column to both shorten and lower wheel position.
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You will want your suit on and Hans to set shoulder strap angle to bar behind seat .. STEVE
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You will want to pay close attention to window net mounting while setting up your seat and steering wheel locations. I have a 96 Firebird and it was really an effort to get something that works right.
We put in some panels to block the lower parts then added net in the farthest forward triangle so we could remove for pedal adjustment.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/65253306_1062348413976451_1549195622790201344_o.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=y2NC4NpVxcYAX-gVOrQ&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-2.fna&oh=aa15558d5a537900cc1daec8e7807d03&oe=5EF26B76)
(https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39957098_878177692393525_8194867041799241728_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=tn1obOxMjr0AX80xcmV&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-1.fna&oh=a267bc286db76d64542cf753927ddd77&oe=5EF42CF4)
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You will want to pay close attention to window net mounting while setting up your seat and steering wheel locations. I have a 96 Firebird and it was really an effort to get something that works right.
We put in some panels to block the lower parts then added net in the farthest forward triangle so we could remove for pedal adjustment.
(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/65253306_1062348413976451_1549195622790201344_o.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=y2NC4NpVxcYAX-gVOrQ&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-2.fna&oh=aa15558d5a537900cc1daec8e7807d03&oe=5EF26B76)
(https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39957098_878177692393525_8194867041799241728_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=tn1obOxMjr0AX80xcmV&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-1.fna&oh=a267bc286db76d64542cf753927ddd77&oe=5EF42CF4)
Good info to chew on. When we were getting seat location figured out we were trying to keep in mind that we needed a good opening to still be able to bail out smoothly. Were there any specific problems you were running in to with your car in regards to the net?
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Let me start this one off by saying that nothing with test your determination and will to survive like being entangled in your roll cage trying to get it primed and painted. But we survived. The cage is installed (welded in) and looking good. Pictures will be coming soon.
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Just dusting this thing off, making sure it still works... Our build has sat stagnant for too long. We have a nice stash of parts built up, just seems one of us is always on the road working or tied up in other things life has thrown at us. We've decided to meet up on Tuesday evenings at a minimum to at least get a trickle of physical progress on the car. Hopefully we'll be able to make a little headway through the winter months and have a running car capable of moving under its own power by spring.
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Pm sent
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Hello ladies and gentleman. We had several ideas on header design and where they should exist. After a lot of reading and consideration of all of your helpful input. We finally chose to stick with the rear exist style. So last week we were able to find the time to get our long tube headers installed. Man oh man, what a tight fit. Ha ha. They are so tight that our transmission no longer fits! (But we knew that was coming). So now to find the time to modify our bell housing. Just another piece of the puzzle. So long until next time.
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Engine bay
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Once again dusting this thing off... Still alive and kicking! We've (myself and ROKTSHP) been caught up in the struggle to balance work/life/build a race car and failing miserably on the race car building (thanks, work). We were initially planning to attend Speed Week this year but have recently opted to instead take the money we'd spend on travel, lodging, food, etc. and put that towards the car and use the time off we both have during Speed Week to re-acquaint ourselves with where we were and try to get the head of steam build back up to make progress towards at least getting the car to start and move under it's own power (baby steps!). Currently taking stock of what we have, what we've lost, and what we'll need to keep busy thrashing on our car while Speed Week happens. Hoping there will still be a live stream so we have something to keep ourselves entertained during the process.
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I have every intention of streaming the audio. Expect to hear music and testing Friday, and it'll be on bright and early Saturday and for the rest of the event.
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I have every intention of streaming the audio. Expect to hear music and testing Friday, and it'll be on bright and early Saturday and for the rest of the event.
Thank you, Jon.
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I have every intention of streaming the audio. Expect to hear music and testing Friday, and it'll be on bright and early Saturday and for the rest of the event.
Awesome! We will definitely be tuning in then. Thanks!
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Just updating this with a little build progress... we took the time and money we would've spent to travel to Speed Week and invested it into the car instead of the trip. Guess we made the right call this year, would've loved to hear some runs over the live stream though. Started a facespace for our team, https://www.facebook.com/E5Landspeed. Check it out, give it a like if you want. Can't say we'll be super active but we'll do what we can. I'll throw up a few pics here, can't do a lot until I can figure out how to re-size en masse.
Anywho, heres a list of major tasks accomplished:
Plan, route, and install entire fuel system from tank to rails and back (save for the tank venting).
Finish building intake, install.
Hang the re-built 10-bolt rear axle.
Install door skins and window frames w/ lexan windows. Re-hang doors.
Drink the super tasty beer.
I didn't document pics too heavily during the build but in the link are a handful of pics I took after we were wrapping up. We're but just a few small steps away from finally being able to hear race car noises through those 1-7/8" primary long tubes... loosely planning Thrash Week - Holidays '22 Edition but we'll work on that once we've recovered from this past week. It was hard not to bubba something together that last day just to make the thing come alive, even if just for a second.
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pics
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again
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again again
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again3
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uno mas
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Starting to look like a race car.... If y'all remember how to get to my place send me a text or PM so we can talk about dyno time to help sort it out a little after it is running.
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uno mas
Looking good. I am concerned about your clearly stock wing. Per 4.cc.12 they are not allowed in /ALT. There are arguments elsewhere about production aero devices that have been allowed on vehicles which otherwise should not carry them. Check with rules committee ( Mike Kaehny) or some official before you get into impound. Safety tech won't address it. <Mike is fair but by the book guy.
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Starting to look like a race car.... If y'all remember how to get to my place send me a text or PM so we can talk about dyno time to help sort it out a little after it is running.
Appreciate that! Would be good to know what the car is doing... one of us will be in touch for sure once we can gather back around again and do the electrical side.
uno mas
Looking good. I am concerned about your clearly stock wing. Per 4.cc.12 they are not allowed in /ALT. There are arguments elsewhere about production aero devices that have been allowed on vehicles which otherwise should not carry them. Check with rules committee ( Mike Kaehny) or some official before you get into impound. Safety tech won't address it. <Mike is fair but by the book guy.
Thanks! Good info to know, we do have a stock Firebird hatch with factory spoiler we may swap over to just for shaking down and figuring the car out but ultimately plan on going the 4.CC.8 route, probably the Implementation Approach One listed in there. We'll iron that out a little later though.
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I thought that was a stock spoiler not a wing.... wings are higher.... and stock pieces do no have to be removed in modified... but Mike or the committee chair for modified listed in the rulebook should be able to give you the answer in writing... for your log book. :wink:
Keep at it... :cheers:
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I thought that was a stock spoiler not a wing.... wings are higher.... and stock pieces do no have to be removed in modified... but Mike or the committee chair for modified listed in the rulebook should be able to give you the answer in writing... for your log book. :wink:
Keep at it... :cheers:
Stainless- to me the issues are what is the definition of a wing (two aero surfaces) vs a spoiler (one aero surface) and if a production wing is allowed in a class where aftermarket wings are not allowed. ( rule 4.CC.12 which clearly states where wings are and are not allowed) The book is not clear (of course). As always on this sort of issue, am just looking for an even playing field where rules are applied evenly to everyone. This was discussed in another thread about such devices on pickups which don't normally have aero devices. A factory optional (i think) not stock on everything, wing similar to the one here, was allowed as I understand in a situation that violated 4.cc.12. Back to check with Mike or similar official and get a ruling before you get to impound. :dhorse:
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As to your comment that stock pieces don't need to be removed in Modified, I have not seen that stated (may have missed) and in the class rules for Altered it says no streamlining as in rule 4.cc is allowed unless specified. To me that means if it came that way, you have to take it off. I realize the horse is dead. Again just want level playing field and rules interpretation stated. :cheers: Need a couple of these. :friday muutt