Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: killerkel on November 14, 2019, 12:10:38 PM
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Firstly Hi, and this is my first post.
I race F3 500cc here in the UK and I have dream to adapt one of my cars and go for a land speed record at Bonneville.
I don't know why I am finding it a little tricky working out what class and what the record is for my type of car, but perhaps someone out there could shine some light on it for me.
The Car:- 1955 Cooper Mk5 F3 500cc
The Engine:- 500cc Petrol 1950s JAP Speedway
I would be looking to re-body the car so as to make it more steam line but not enclosing the wheels and to carry out any other safety requirements as required by the rules.
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From a "know nothing" Brit:
Special construction and exposed wheels = Lakester
Petrol = Gas :roll:
500cc JAP = Engine class K (up to 31 c.i.)
And I presume the JAP would be naturally aspirated.
Therefore you will be in the K/GL class. Current record is a rather challenging (to me) 181.696 mph.
Good luck! :cheers:
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Just noticed that if you fit a teeny, tiny turbocharger (maybe so small the tech inspectors will barely be able to see it :evil:), the K/BGL record is only 133.274 mph. Go figger ...
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From another Brit.
Obtain an SCTA rule book and see if there is any chance that your chassis will meet the 2019 or 2020 rulebook specification for tubes used. If it is a standard Cooper chassis of the period you may find that it is too 'light' in diameters and wall thickness.
Do not expect the rules will accept a finished classic car. Building to the rules is the only way.
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From another Brit (resident) actually a kiwi - I confirm the Malcolm's comment about Rule Book.
I am building a Lakester (from scratch) and based near Marlow, Bucks - if that's convenient come and borrow a rule book and decide if the requirements and your dream align - I hope so.
I can post you an older one to peruse if you PM me - once you start building you need to get the latest and I cannot emphasis enough the value of attending a spectator trip to Speed Week if you haven't already. The people are amazing (helpful, chat about their cars, let you take pics in their pits etc.), the venue is other worldly and you will be hooked.
John
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From the 2019 Record Book . . .
K/Unblown Gas Lakester Record -- 181
K/Blown Gas Lakester Record -- 133
K/Unblown Fuel Lakester Record -- 175
K/Blown Fuel Lakester Record -- 140
SCTA classifies "Fuel" as almost anything including "uncertified" event gas.
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2.B Fuels:
". . . any approved liquid fuel may be used".
The operative word here is "approved". While there is no listing of the disapproved fuels I know that hydrazine is banned. If you stay within what is listed you will be OK.
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I would be looking to re-body the car so as to make it more steam line but not enclosing the wheels and to carry out any other safety requirements as required by the rules.
With the new roll cage you'll need, and a new body, there's not that much of the original car left, and you will have destroyed a nice vintage road racer. You might as well build a car from scratch. The JAP will be competing against modern 4 cylinder race engines. I don't think it makes sense.
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Well thank guys.
Always best to ask!
My plans are quite long term...I have a spectator trip sorted for speedweek in 2020.
I am using 2020 to built and test the car in between my racing here and my attempt would be for 2021.
Sound like a long time away but time just seems to fly past.
As I race small engined cars at the moment, I wish to stick with them but it sounds like there is no advantage in having a period classic car over a modern one. (There seems to be no classic class)
These are my first steps, research before I press the button.
And staying on the theme of small engines.....is there a class for a diesel 500cc open wheel car? And if so what is the record?
I am thinking about building a car with interchangeable engines...so as to make a double attempt in both gas and diesel!
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Not many diesel classes at all and no 'Diesel Lakester' class (yet ... :dhorse:).
I presume you could enter an SCTA event as a Diesel Streamliner without enclosing the wheels, where the record is a stunning 56.825 mph.
Alternatively, in FIA-land, there appears to be no current record if unblown (A-IV-3), whilst the blown (A-III-3) records are 52.731 mph for the mile and 52.845 mph for the km (both set in 1978).
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I notice that our US friends are leaving it to the Brits on this topic.
They may step up now, as they know the SCTA rule book better than most in speed sport.
A diesel cycle engine is a permitted internal combustion engine and can be used in most of the racing categories, just not vintage.
If the provider of event fuel does not carry a diesel product, then the easy answer (or only answer) is to run your diesel engine in the appropriate 'fuel' class. Then all you have to do is exceed the speed for a fuel lakester. From the post earlier from Stan Back you will need to go 140 or 175 mph.
You cannot run FIA records at Speedweek (as they no longer operate with two way passes). You will have to join the Mike Cook 'Shootout' event for any such record bid, joining a limited number of entrants.
For testing, before you visit Bonneville, there are speed events in the UK - on Elvington and Pendine Sands - where you should be able to reach representative speeds. Look up UK Timing Association who work with Straightliners on the web.
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Well it looks like no one here has a clue about the vehicle you are talking about... It sounds like a vintage race car with open wheels... pictures speak a thousand words.
If you want to run it as a lakester it will need to meet all the rules... which as someone already stated, to do that will destroy a vintage race car. If you choose to build a Lakester, then you should do that from scratch... but feel free to use as many of your vintage parts as you see fit. If you want to run in a diesel class, then just cover 2 wheels of your lakester and "poof" you are a streamliner.
As also said before, get a rule book, then you can read what is required to make this work. John (Lemming Motors) is building over there right now... go see him
If you want more info from this side of the pond, show us what you are thinking and we will help as much as possible.
:cheers:
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Hope this helps
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it will be the first Bonneville racer with the frame outside.....
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Well that looks like "state of the art" safety for 1954... there are a lot of old Bonneville car photos that show that much roll protection. But not enough room for the fire system and up to "code" roll structure unless you are planning Pork Pie's idea of putting the roll cage on the outside. :?
Just keep your old racer as is, and start your Bonneville Lakester from scratch.
:cheers:
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It can be done: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=17023.msg312990#msg312990
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In the circumstance that there is no specific "diesel" class ( as in trucks and streamliners etc) a diesel powered car MAY (my emphasis) "compete" ( as in good luck with that) in gasoline classes. (see 2.B Fuels, Event gasoline-last paragraph).
As far as vintage engines are concerned, I don't see a specific prohibition to diesel (may have missed) but as there are so many specific regulations with respect to what vintage parts are allowed and modifications, you might have trouble with that one as has been pointed out. Unless you can run it on diesel fuel (and make any power) with no structural changes. Pistons are not a problem but i'd guess everything else might be- uh three main bearings and splash lube in a 20-1 4 banger flat head no less. LOL.
Anyway, as has been stated, come see at the track, talk with folks, read the rule book a hundred times or so and innovate away. Have fun.
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If you want to run a diesel engine, the reasonable options would be as a streamliner (no exposed "open" wheels) or in a diesel truck class. Beyond those options, diesel engines will have a tough time competing against similar displacement "gas" or "fuel" engines.