Landracing Forum
Thrust-powered Land Speed information => Discussions on absolute land speed records => Topic started by: kiwi belly tank on October 31, 2019, 01:06:20 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjkFf26yZNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZQBUt3ST4Q
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JS0mXbjq64
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Seems to wander a bit :?
:cheers:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JS0mXbjq64
"How do you slow the world?s fastest car using a parachute?"
The world?s fastest car?????? Uhhhh, no.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3k8Onl7nZE
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And today's run...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50267207?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story
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It is interesting to read that they are planning on strapping a rocket engine on the car next year (a la Stan Barrett?).
Was that the plan since the inception of the car?
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Shame on the BBC - Donald Campbell's speed of 403mph was set on Kati Thanda-Lake Eyre, the huge salt pan in central Australia.
It was the last official mark to hold the land speed record with a wheel-driven vehicle. All subsequent records have been set by jet or rocket-powered cars.
Someone check my math but I am pretty sure 409.277, FIA sanctioned, Nov 12 1965 is faster than 403mph unless 4wd doesn't count but I'm pretty sure the clue is in the name there.
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It is interesting to read that they are planning on strapping a rocket engine on the car next year (a la Stan Barrett?).
Was that the plan since the inception of the car?
Yes, the car was designed for a rocket & jet engine to be used from the beginning...
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It is interesting to read that they are planning on strapping a rocket engine on the car next year (a la Stan Barrett?).
Was that the plan since the inception of the car?
Yes, the car was designed for a rocket & jet engine to be used from the beginning...
It cannot beat the current outright record with the jet engine alone.
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Shame on the BBC - Donald Campbell's speed of 403mph was set on Kati Thanda-Lake Eyre, the huge salt pan in central Australia.
It was the last official mark to hold the land speed record with a wheel-driven vehicle. All subsequent records have been set by jet or rocket-powered cars.
Someone check my math but I am pretty sure 409.277, FIA sanctioned, Nov 12 1965 is faster than 403mph unless 4wd doesn't count but I'm pretty sure the clue is in the name there.
The point the BBC are rather clumsily making is that the outright record was 576 mph when Goldenrod set its class record(s). Art Arfons five days previously.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AboVP68NZDM
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what you say...it can be read that way and from the historical view it's correct....missing, that since a couple years the wheel driven records are not anymore international records...they are also called, again, world speed records.....
which is right from the fact can't be known by the average Joe......
so the way as BBC is telling it, it's getting a little bit a smell of too much "patriotism"......... muutt
Shame on the BBC - Donald Campbell's speed of 403mph was set on Kati Thanda-Lake Eyre, the huge salt pan in central Australia.
It was the last official mark to hold the land speed record with a wheel-driven vehicle. All subsequent records have been set by jet or rocket-powered cars.
Someone check my math but I am pretty sure 409.277, FIA sanctioned, Nov 12 1965 is faster than 403mph unless 4wd doesn't count but I'm pretty sure the clue is in the name there.
The point the BBC are rather clumsily making is that the outright record was 576 mph when Goldenrod set its class record(s). Art Arfons five days previously.
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And today's run...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-50267207?intlink_from_url=&link_location=live-reporting-story
I hope the directional stability increases with speed
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Bloodhound is not the fastest land speed car that label belongs to THRUST SSC and will stay that way until Bloodhound breaks its record.
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Seems to wander a bit :?
:cheers:
You should read "Thrust" by Richard Noble.
In the book Andy said that every pass at about 350 MPH the car would jump over a lane, about 9 feet! He also said they were never able to understand why it would do this so he would just turn the wheel in anticipation for it on each run...
Big brass ones that man.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JS0mXbjq64
"How do you slow the world?s fastest car using a parachute?"
The world?s fastest car?????? Uhhhh, no.
Bloodhound is the "world's fastest car" if you are in marketing.
Most of us here are more interested in engineering.
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So the lever he reaches down for on the left is for the deployment of the chute ?, I would have thought that a button on the steering butterfly would be much safer to activate at 1000mph
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I believe the levers on the left are for a manual release of the chutes if the steering wheel buttons fail to operate.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjfi9snqlX4
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxEBRBuAO3U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggk8_gAc45k
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So the lever he reaches down for on the left is for the deployment of the chute ?, I would have thought that a button on the steering butterfly would be much safer to activate at 1000mph
He was using the back up levers during the last couple of runs. Will deployed by a steering wheel button eventually.
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It would seem to me that if you were testing, you'd be testing (parachute release, etc.).
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"to test left parachute" https://newatlas.com/automotive/bloodhound-lsr-461-mph/ (https://newatlas.com/automotive/bloodhound-lsr-461-mph/)
Mike
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrerP1ae6A4
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Things look like they are coming along well for the Bloodhound team.
John
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Today's story.https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50304922 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50304922)
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It surprises me they didn't remember that exposed panel edge thing from the Thrust SST days, that was a problem back then too.
Sid.
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https://twitter.com/Bloodhound_LSR/status/1192078656656547846
501mph but blimey, that looks quick...
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Another BBC articlehttps://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50324992 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50324992)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yq_gevX9tI
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ZDfLxkrSI
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Watching todays video and the prior videos the car seems to need a fair amount of steering input to keep it going straight.
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A recent update https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50349981 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50349981)
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More runs are expected next week.https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50361783 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50361783)
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The experience of driving a winngless airplane https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50374942
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It surprises me they didn't remember that exposed panel edge thing from the Thrust SST days, that was a problem back then too.
Sid.
They should have known better (and learned from the Thrust SST experience). Their "repair", in my opinion, will
never withstand a run anywhere near 1000 mph. That entire part of the body should be redesigned and rebuilt
before high speed runs next year. I'm starting to worry for Andy's safety.
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If it's a problem, I'm sure they will. This is the type of problem they can pickup from this year's runs and then re-engineer it, if needed for high-speed runs in 12 or 18 months time.
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The strength and ductility of titanium alloy sheet might be an asset in those problem areas.
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The strength and ductility of titanium alloy sheet might be an asset in those problem areas.
It's my understanding that the sheetmetal that bent and "peeled back" is titanium. I think the flaw is more
in the design (having a leading edge face into the wind) than in the choice of material. The current design
may have been intended as temporary, and not for record-breaking speeds.
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562 mph/904 km/hr this morning. The video is on the Bloodhound FB page and no doubt elsewhere. Step by step, mile by mile, and geez is it fun to watch.
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No criticism Slim, but I'll add some additional value by saving interested parties the 10 seconds it takes to find it:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B446IWMFTeJ/
Ya gotta love the ground-level drive-by imagery!!!
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It's on Instagram, too? No surprise, I guess. Any way to make it easier for hoi polloi to see it works for me. Thanks.
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There is a tendency to hire drivers for the fastest cars and bike streamliners that have not worked their way up through the ranks of land speed racing or in developing the vehicles. This is sorta odd and I cannot explain why. There have been many close to disaster events that skilled and experience drivers somehow made the right decisions and survive, like Arfons and Breedlove. It seems many of the less seasoned drivers do not. Having an experienced "old hand" like Andy Green at the wheel is a big, big, asset to this effort.
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There is a tendency to hire drivers for the fastest cars and bike streamliners that have not worked their way up through the ranks of land speed racing or in developing the vehicles. This is sorta odd and I cannot explain why. There have been many close to disaster events that skilled and experience drivers somehow made the right decisions and survive, like Arfons and Breedlove. It seems many of the less seasoned drivers do not. Having an experienced "old hand" like Andy Green at the wheel is a big, big, asset to this effort.
Two people who are instrumental in the success of Bloodhound- Andy Green and Ron Ayres.
BTW, they were at the Salt Talks in 2006.
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Thanks TD
Wow.
Slim, it?s Mr. H. Polloi if you don?t mind aktion086
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Today's update. 562 mphhttps://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50432423 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50432423)
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628!! on Sat.
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An article about the 628 mph runhttps://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50438614 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50438614)
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McGlashan claims a 638 MPH pass in Aussie Invader III in 1996, meaning Mr. Amos' list of six over-600 vehicles should really include seven.
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628mph video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKvdcjSufZ8
"The team says the 628mph speed concludes the high-speed trials and it will now return to England.
Only six vehicles in the history of the land speed record have previously driven beyond 600mph. The six vehicles to have also raced above 600mph are Sonic 1, Blue Flame, Thrust2, Budweiser Rocket, Sonic Arrow, and Thrust SSC. Only Budweiser Rocket and Thrust SSC went beyond 700mph (1,126km/h)."
I thought Art Arfons Green Monster went over 600mph and he crashed at that speed. Is that correct?
From wikipedia:
In 1966, Arfons returned once again to Bonneville, but reached an average speed of only 554.017 mph (891.604 km/h).[citation needed] On run number seven[citation needed] at 8:03 a.m. on November 17,[citation needed] Arfons crashed his vehicle travelling 610 mph (982 km/h)[citation needed] when a wheel bearing seized.
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First, you cannot compare those vehicles which actually exceeded 600 mph in the measured kilometer and/or mile (and return runs for an AVERAGE speed) with vehicles which CLAIM speeds at some undisclosed distance with dubious timing by sketchy timers. That certainly excludes the Budmobile which made numerous bogus claims, which IHRA and FIM do not back up. They have no records of the claims. Their 700+ mph claim was a total fabrication, since the car was not actually timed, but speed was allegedly extrapolated (by the claimants themselves) from data derived from an uncalibrated and uncertified, as to accuracy, source. Arfons was actually over 600 mph when he crashed - and survived.
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Interesting interview with Andy Green:
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/andy-green-bloodhound-its-worse-drive-i-hoped
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CORRECTION! FOUR CARS HAVE EXCEEDED 600 mi/h VERIFIABLY:
Spirit of America ? Sonic 1 600.601 mmi/h (absolute world record)
The Blue Flame ? 630.388 mi/h (absolute world record)
Thrust 2 ? 633.468 mi/h (absolute world record)
Thrust SSC ? 763.035 mi/h (absolute world record)
Art Arfons in the Green Monster and Craig Breedlove in the Sonic Arrow CLAIMED 600+ mi/h achieved after running off course. Rosco McGlashan (I really do love that guy) claimed a PEAK 600+ speed (whatever that means) in the Aussie Invader 3. The Budweiser rocket claim is a total fraud (NEVER actually timed over 700 mi/h) and made several spurious 600+ claims over some (?) distance.
The Bloodhound CLAIMS their instrumentation showed 628 mi/h. Bid deal! The Blue Flame onboard instrumentation (calibrated by the U.S. Air Force) showed Gary a PEAK speed of 660 mi/h ? which we never claimed and means nothing in the LSR picture. Also NOT a big deal!
Bloodhound should be ashamed, at this point, comparing their test speeds to REAL absolute world land speed record holders. Their time will come, I am certain. Do they really need to make unverified claims to generate publicity? Land speed racing has had enough of these phony ?records? and other speed claims. If they are going to BS us now, why would we believe their later record claims? These PR claims only cheapen the real absolute world land speed records ? and confuse the public.
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Is there a Land Speed Record Category of what your top speed was without the 2 way requirements and the distance over the kilometer/mile for those who don't know when they will achieve top speed or those with rocket powered cars that cannot refuel in 1 hour?
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Is there a Land Speed Record Category of what your top speed was without the 2 way requirements and the distance over the kilometer/mile for those who don't know when they will achieve top speed or those with rocket powered cars that cannot refuel in 1 hour?
No.
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FIA (and predecessors) have been the world body regulating automotive sport since the 1890s. The Absolute World Land Speed Record is the fastest world record irrespective of category or class. The fastest world records will be the standing start kilometer and mile records, the shortest distances. Regulations for vehicle classes and categories as well as record timing, etcetera, are contained in the FIA International Sporting Code. The first absolute world records were set in Europe over the kilometer. Later absolute world records were set in England over the mile. Subsequently, record attempts were timed simultaneously over both kilometer and mile, the faster being the absolute world land speed record. Thrust powered vehicles are classified as "special vehicles" and their records are listed in Category C. There, they are broken down into turbojet and rocket power. There is no record for "peak speed".
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McGlashan claims a 638 MPH pass in Aussie Invader III in 1996, meaning Mr. Amos' list of six over-600 vehicles should really include seven.
Mr. Amos has updated the article and responded to an email I sent on the topic. Rosco McGlashan also responded - how cool is that? :-)
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A guy I know saw the vehicle at the Pan.
In his opinion it looked dangerous and he doesn't think they'll be back.
If the Bloodhound is your thing don't go picking on me because of what I heard.
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The fastest world records will be the standing start kilometer and mile records, the shortest distances.
Flying start.
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... it looked dangerous and he doesn't think they'll be back.
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In my not-so-humble opinion there are only two reasons why Bloodhound LSR might not return to South Africa.
- Lack of money. Ian Warhurst has indicated that he is looking for one or more sponsors to fund the first record attempt. If they don't materialise he may pull the plug. Is he bluffing?
- Lack of a viable rocket. This has long been the project's Achilles heel. It's not clear that Nammo can (in a reasonable timeframe) provide something that Andy Green is willing to sit in front of.
Whether or not it looks dangerous now is verging on irrelevant. One of the points of the high speed testing was to gather data to inform the engineers whether their computer modelling is accurate. If it is not, or there is any other reason to doubt the safety of the design, the next 12 months or so will be used to redesign parts of the car to ensure that it remains adequately safe in the 600-800mph speed range.
On the faster runs Bloodhound is reportedly affected by cross winds, but not in any way that Andy found difficult to control.
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McGlashan claims a 638 MPH pass in Aussie Invader III in 1996, meaning Mr. Amos' list of six over-600 vehicles should really include seven.
Mr. Amos has updated the article and responded to an email I sent on the topic. Rosco McGlashan also responded - how cool is that? :-)
That is cool. Did Rosco provide any more detail on Aussie Invader III's runs. e.g. when; how fast; how was speed calculated?
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McGlashan claims a 638 MPH pass in Aussie Invader III in 1996, meaning Mr. Amos' list of six over-600 vehicles should really include seven.
Mr. Amos has updated the article and responded to an email I sent on the topic. Rosco McGlashan also responded - how cool is that? :-)
That is cool. Did Rosco provide any more detail on Aussie Invader III's runs. e.g. when; how fast; how was speed calculated?
I didn't ask for more detail. The statements are on the AI website, including here:
http://aussieinvader.com/the-challenge/ (http://aussieinvader.com/the-challenge/)
where it says 'a one-way pass of 638 MPH'. Another:
http://aussieinvader.com/the-people/rosco-mcglashan-oam-2/past-machines/ (http://aussieinvader.com/the-people/rosco-mcglashan-oam-2/past-machines/)
here it says 'a peak speed of 638 MPH'.
Generally I think Rosco has run against the accepted timing norms, e.g., over a mile in two directions, using timing lights and precision clocks, but I don't have a ton of evidence of this. Mostly the story about running over 'timing equipment' in AI 2 and terminally damaging the car (which is repeated in John Ackroyd's Jet Blast and the Hand of Fate, btw). :? But also explanations of why he did not set a record, specifically by failing to make a return pass over a measured mile within an hour.
Apropos other comments, I think both the BBC article author and McGlashan were claiming nothing more than 'at some point the vehicle was moving at over 600 MPH'. These are not records nor claims of same, or at least I didn't interpret them that way.
I'm not a sanctioning body nor a timing authority (though in a former life I spent a lot of time thinking about telecom network timing and time distribution). While I might not personally believe a record speed claim made solely against GPS measurements, I think quality GPS-based measurement is sufficiently accurate to closely approximate how fast something is moving. So when the Bloodhound crew claim that that vehicle was moving at 628 MPH at some point during a run, and that value was derived from a GPS-based measurement, I'm inclined to believe it. Again, I don't see that as a record claim in any form.
One could always ask Rosco how they measured AI 3 speed, there's a 'Contact Us' link here: http://aussieinvader.com/contact-us/ (http://aussieinvader.com/contact-us/). Ditto for Bloodhound.
Tim
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FLYING START - OF COURSE!
I didn't check my nomenclature.
I was looking at all the record distances and had standing start on my mind I guess.
Thank you.
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A guy I know saw the vehicle at the Pan.
In his opinion it looked dangerous and he doesn't think they'll be back...
Well that's a 'useful' comment. :?
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...Apropos other comments, I think both the BBC article author and McGlashan were claiming nothing more than 'at some point the vehicle was moving at over 600 MPH'. These are not records nor claims of same, or at least I didn't interpret them that way.
I'm not a sanctioning body nor a timing authority (though in a former life I spent a lot of time thinking about telecom network timing and time distribution). While I might not personally believe a record speed claim made solely against GPS measurements, I think quality GPS-based measurement is sufficiently accurate to closely approximate how fast something is moving. So when the Bloodhound crew claim that that vehicle was moving at 628 MPH at some point during a run, and that value was derived from a GPS-based measurement, I'm inclined to believe it. Again, I don't see that as a record claim in any form...
Well said Tim.
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The point is that comparing Bloodhound's alleged peak speed to 4 absolute world land speed record holders is not just misleading, but minimizes their record achievements. It is the same thing as a 100 meter sprinter claiming he is faster than a 1,000 meter middle distance runner. The media and the public don't understand these issues. It is irresponsible for a legitimate record contender to promote a dubious achievement as fact.
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I think they will go back and make a run at the record. Their new plan to use a Peroxide motor instead of the hybrid will bring them into more of a "known" territory with the rocket. The 1000 mph plan seems to be off the table completely. It will be interesting to see what sort of changes they decide to make to improve the handling though. Andy does seem to be a bit rattled by it.
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Found it interesting last nite when they released a graph of the speed & G force over time
my rough assessment of the info would expect the g force would be pretty much 0 at somewhere around 700 mph
they were pretty deep into the HP V drag on the last run
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https://www.topgear.com/car-news/heres-how-quickly-bloodhound-accelerated-628mph
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Found it interesting last nite when they released a graph of the speed & G force over time
my rough assessment of the info would expect the g force would be pretty much 0 at somewhere around 700 mph
they were pretty deep into the HP V drag on the last run
I had the same thought. It wouldn't go much faster, maybe 650, on just the jet. That lines up with some of their previous projections though.
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Interesting article. The graph here https://i2.wp.com/i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/stroked71/fosset4_zps68cdee8a.jpg (https://i2.wp.com/i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/stroked71/fosset4_zps68cdee8a.jpg) is putatively from Breedlove's 1996 'u-turn' run. I think the annotations are by John Ackroyd, but I'm not sure. Zero to 600+ in approximately 50 seconds in a lighter, but less powerful, vehicle using less than full throttle.
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TD can you attach that to the reply , Photobucket have hazed it out when you view through the link
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Let's see if this works. The image is blurry to begin with. I've tried to reach John Ackroyd to see if he has a better copy but I'm not hopeful he'll get the message or respond.
(https://i2.wp.com/i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/stroked71/fosset4_zps68cdee8a.jpg)
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Look guys....don?t get to excited on this. There is a long way to go. The car is on its way back to the UK now. The big question is....well....look at in the in car video.
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The point is that comparing Bloodhound's alleged peak speed to 4 absolute world land speed record holders is not just misleading, but minimizes their record achievements. It is the same thing as a 100 meter sprinter claiming he is faster than a 1,000 meter middle distance runner. The media and the public don't understand these issues. It is irresponsible for a legitimate record contender to promote a dubious achievement as fact.
Exactly. The PR machine was in full spin mode.
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Well I guess we will all watch as they try to raise the cash to continue.
I would have liked a throttle position on that graph. They were just speed testing like the NAE had been doing for years. So without knowing throttle, how can anyone say that is close to their max.
It seemed to be a little squirrelly as I mentioned earlier, but maybe Andy was over correcting... his last ride was rear steering... is this one fly by wire or mechanically connected...
Hey the media claims are for the public... building project support... they all do it these days...
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Stainless - "the media claims are for the public"! That is my point. Fake news does not inform the public - it deceives the public. I will now be very skeptical of any claims from the Bloodhound crowd. If it ain't FIA, it ain't real!
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My take is that the numbers that they release aren't and can't be taken as record setting numbers. What they do accomplish is give a relative performance reading as opposed to new or previous runs. This makes it easy to see if they are making performance gains or spinning their wheels so to speak. They can't be taken as anything more.
Pete
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... maybe Andy was over correcting... his last ride was rear steering...
Pedants corner: AFAIK, Andy's last ride (setting an independently-timed, FIA-recognised record) was steered by the front wheels.
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It was also powered by two diesel engines. :cheers:
Someone will probably out-pedant me now by pointing to some other vehicle that Andy Green has driven at Bonneville since 2006.
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They should not be bragging against the absolute world record holders.
A better press release could have read:
In our dynamic tests at progressively increasing speeds, Bloodhound?s on-board instrumentation briefly indicated an unofficial peak speed of 628 miles per hour. This confirms our design calculations for this phase of the Bloodhound?s development.
That would be real news.
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They should not be bragging against the absolute world record holders.
A better press release could have read:
In our dynamic tests at progressively increasing speeds, Bloodhound?s on-board instrumentation briefly indicated an unofficial peak speed of 628 miles per hour. This confirms our design calculations for this phase of the Bloodhound?s development.
That would be real news.
Where is the press release in which they compare Bloodhound's performance with holders of the absolute record? I cannot find anything like that on their web site.
Mind you, when they (as essentially the same team) are the current record holder I can forgive them giving a commentary on how they compare with themselves, so to speak.
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Andy was on the salt to drive the rebuilt Mormon Meteor after the JCB diesel, I believe. I was there for both of those. . .
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Tricky Dicky - The BBC press article began...
Bloodhound has now joined the exclusive club of land speed racers that have gone faster than 600mph (965km/h).
Running across its dry lakebed track on Saturday, the British car's GPS sensors clocked 628mph (1,010km/h).
Only seven vehicles in the history of the land speed record have previously driven beyond 600mph.
Again, only FOUR have been correctly timed over 600 mph - and they did it over the mile/kilometer in two directions and independently timed (FIA).
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Did they get the design from the hydro boats?????
The intake looks the same. I saw the video that was on our national TV last night and that contraption was all over the shop.
Seriously guys. I don't think they'll be back.
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I saw the video that was on our national TV last night and that contraption was all over the shop.
Seriously guys. I don't think they'll be back.
In my not-so-humble opinion there are only two reasons why Bloodhound LSR might not return to South Africa.
- Lack of money. Ian Warhurst has indicated that he is looking for one or more sponsors to fund the first record attempt. If they don't materialise he may pull the plug. Is he bluffing?
- Lack of a viable rocket. This has long been the project's Achilles heel. It's not clear that Nammo can (in a reasonable timeframe) provide something that Andy Green is willing to sit in front of.
Whether or not it looks dangerous now is verging on irrelevant. One of the points of the high speed testing was to gather data to inform the engineers whether their computer modelling is accurate. If it is not, or there is any other reason to doubt the safety of the design, the next 12 months or so will be used to redesign parts of the car to ensure that it remains adequately safe in the 600-800mph speed range.
On the faster runs Bloodhound is reportedly affected by cross winds, but not in any way that Andy found difficult to control.
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Andy was on the salt to drive the rebuilt Mormon Meteor after the JCB diesel, I believe. I was there for both of those. . .
Thanks for the information about Mormon Meteor, SSS. I wasn't aware of that. I'm guessing Andy was not going for a record on that occasion. :clap
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I thought that the new owner of bloodhound has more money then god. Why is he looking for more money to run the car. I believe that andy green was not a land speed racer before he drove thrust ssc. There are people on this forum that have been land speed racers a lot longer then andy green.
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These were taken when the MM and Andy Green were on the salt with the Mormon Meteor. They were taken in 2008.
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1863.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1863.jpg.html)
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1848.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1848.jpg.html)
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1839.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1839.jpg.html)
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1840.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1840.jpg.html)
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1851.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1851.jpg.html)
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1828.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1828.jpg.html)
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1855.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1855.jpg.html)
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1827.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1827.jpg.html)
And finally, Monte and Andy:
(https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/SeldomSeenSlim/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1835.jpg) (http://s263.photobucket.com/user/SeldomSeenSlim/media/World%20of%20Speed%202008/100_1835.jpg.html)
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... I believe that andy green was not a land speed racer before he drove thrust ssc. ...
I think that is correct. He won through a competitive selection process when Richard Noble decided not to drive ThrustSSC himself.
Pretty amazing that a raw novice was able to set a supersonic record on only the 65th and 66th runs of ThrustSSC. :roll:
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Green was (and still is) a fighter pilot in the RAF. There's an interesting article about him here: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/november-2007/70/lunch-andy-green (https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/november-2007/70/lunch-andy-green).
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No longer a fighter pilot.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/andy-green-the-fastest-man-on-earth-62jpr9flhkg
But still in the RAF and flying at weekends.
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Bloodhound is headed home. Strapped to an open trailer, with a car cover over it, on a ship. This does not seem like a good idea.
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The advice I got, and followed, was to wrap the vehicle up tight in plastic and put a dehumidifier in with it. The bike went from Oregon, through the Panama Canal to the UK, and it rode on a Chinese freighter from the UK, through the Indian Ocean, then the Pacific Ocean, and back to Oregon. No shipboard corrosion was seen after those long trips.
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Coming out of Africa. White Elephant. Done and dusted. Biggest media hype in motor sports. Bloodhound, named after an RAF missile from the 50s. Sorry boys. Game over. Just my opinion.
:?
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Car&Driver #1: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30065043/bloodhound-land-speed-record-update/ (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30065043/bloodhound-land-speed-record-update/)
Car&Driver #2: https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/bloodhound-ssc-gang-behind-the-scenes-with-the-team-shooting-for-a-1000-mph-land-speed-record/ar-BBXIm7M (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/bloodhound-ssc-gang-behind-the-scenes-with-the-team-shooting-for-a-1000-mph-land-speed-record/ar-BBXIm7M)
:laugh:
Mike
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So Bloodhound has done some high speed testing and per their own published data gone quite quickly; presumably now they need a bunch of cash to go to the next level (and a rocket motor or three). I have enjoyed the journey as an interested observer and hope they are able to progress and at least tickle the current LSR.
That they almost built a Lakester is cool too. As for that other almost a Lakester ....
I cannot find anything sensible on the Aussie Invader 5R project status - even their own website is blank under 'latest news'. Is anyone close to that project able to update?
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The AI crew seem to provide most of their updates via The Book of Face. The FB icon linking to their page is on the AI website.
They appear to have made some recent progress on the cars' propellant distribution plumbing and the 'giant syringe' propellant tanks. There is a rocket motor (or something which looks like a rocket motor) with a wound composite nozzle visible in at least one of the photos.
Addendum: They have been pretty responsive when I have emailed them.
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Coming out of Africa. White Elephant. Done and dusted. Biggest media hype in motor sports. Bloodhound, named after an RAF missile from the 50s. Sorry boys. Game over. Just my opinion.
:?
Geez Mike, that's about the third negative post from you after Bloodhound's visit to Africa. What have they done to upset you? :-o
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Yesterday I gave a Powerpoint presentation to the Ancient Aviators of South Alabama. They wanted an update on Bloodhound andAI5R. Rosco was kind enough to send me photos and information on the current status of his project. For some reason the Aussies seem a little stingy in supporting Rosco. Maybe the early penal colony was populated by Scots. He has had quite a learning experience getting the rocket propulsion sorted out - but it looks quite workable now. He has a WFNA/Turpentine hypergolic oxidizer/fuel propellant combination and an elegant 7 cylinder piston-operated propellant tank. His is a blowdown system not requiring an auxiliary powerplant and pump. KISS principles rule. I don't know when they will get to test the rocket. Soon I hope. Bloodhound spilled more money than Rosco has spent.
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MAYOMAN. Do you have a copy of it that we can watch?
Yesterday I gave a Powerpoint presentation to the Ancient Aviators of South Alabama. They wanted an update on Bloodhound andAI5R. Rosco was kind enough to send me photos and information on the current status of his project. For some reason the Aussies seem a little stingy in supporting Rosco. Maybe the early penal colony was populated by Scots. He has had quite a learning experience getting the rocket propulsion sorted out - but it looks quite workable now. He has a WFNA/Turpentine hypergolic oxidizer/fuel propellant combination and an elegant 7 cylinder piston-operated propellant tank. His is a blowdown system not requiring an auxiliary powerplant and pump. KISS principles rule. I don't know when they will get to test the rocket. Soon I hope. Bloodhound spilled more money than Rosco has spent.
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I have heard that 1000mph is no longer on the table. There goal now is to get enought money for the rocket and the next trip to the pan to try and break the current land speed record. I guess the car owner does not have more money then god and is feeling the pinch.
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J79 - I actually did 2 presentations to the Ancient Aviators. First, they had asked me to tell the story of my personal involvement in the 1970 land speed record, which I did. Afterward, they asked it I could update them on the land speed records since The Blue Flame. So, there are 2 PowerPoints. I also have them in PDF for easier access. Even the PDF files are large, 7 and 17 Mb. I don't know how to share either in this forum.
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I have heard that 1000mph is no longer on the table. There goal now is to get enought money for the rocket and the next trip to the pan to try and break the current land speed record. I guess the car owner does not have more money then god and is feeling the pinch.
That progression has been the plan since Ian purchased it. He never was targeting 1000. He did say they might try it depending on what the data showed after they get the record, but is not really a goal.
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Does anyone have a picture of the wheels?
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The friction coefficient between the wheel and the track surface is what keeps the car from being blown sideways and provides the ability to steer the thing. A high coefficient means it is easy to stay on track and to steer. The opposite happens with a low value.
Sandy soil can provide a reasonable friction coefficient in its compacted and undisturbed condition. The soil particles are interlocking with each other and they resist displacement. Compressed air trying to get under the wheel or a subsonic shock wave ahead of the wheel can disturb the soil particle interlock. The frictional coefficient drops. The car is skating on an aeriated surface with little ability to control it.
What to do. First, compare the particle size distribution, particle specific gravity, and particle angularity to the last known good surface, the Black Rock Desert. Finer size, rounder particle shape, and lighter specific gravity can all cause problems. A soil scientist can be a help here. Chemicals were applied to fine grain non-cohesive soils on many of the construction sites I worked on to keep the soils in place. Something similar might be needed on the pan.
Second, look at the wheel surface. A single central circumferential rib might be needed to get down below the aeriated layer to reach more consolidated material. Slots or holes in the wheel surface may relieve air pressure under the wheel. This may have been done. I have not seen the wheels.
This is posted here as some things for experts to consider.
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Does anyone have a picture of the wheels?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlWOCpFCUAEgTJ1?format=jpg&name=small)
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Does anyone have a picture of the wheels?
Best I can find is at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49184375. But you have probably seen that article. Key paragraphs:
The first thing to test is the high-speed desert wheels.
Each wheel weighs 95 kg and is forged from solid aluminium, without any tyre on it.
At 1,000mph, the wheels experience 50,000 times the force of gravity trying to tear the wheel rim apart, so it has to be solid metal; nothing else will cope with the extreme loads. So far, so well understood. Now we get to the bit that we don't know - how will these wheels behave on the desert surface?
Metal rims running on the hard mud surface of Hakskeenpan will have very little grip due to friction.
Normal road cars rely on tyre grip for their stability and safety, and tyre companies spend a huge amount on developing the right rubber compounds for maximum grip.
None of that helps us, as 50,000-g would destroy any rubber tyre, so we are working with the unusual (and poorly understood) dynamics of solid metal wheels.
We have given the metal wheels some lateral grip on the desert surface by making them a shallow "V" profile.
As the car runs along the track, the wheels cut ruts in the mud surface, providing the sideways grip that we need. Unfortunately, the faster we go, the shallower the ruts become - at slow speeds (200mph), they will be 10-15 mm deep, but at supersonic speeds the wheels will be making tracks less than 5mm deep, which will provide almost no sideways grip.
There is some good news at supersonic speeds, as the aerodynamic grip will be huge, so that car will get pretty much all of its directional stability from the supersonic airflow.
This should also give the car some very lively steering at high speeds, with the front wheels acting like rudders in the supersonic airflow, producing very rapid steering responses.
Now for the bad news. As the car accelerates, the mechanical wheel grip goes down quite quickly, but the aerodynamic forces (which depend on the square of the speed) build up much more slowly.
This means that at "medium" speeds (somewhere between 300mph and 500mph), there is very little surface grip from the wheels and there is very little aerodynamic response.
This is where controlling Bloodhound may well feel like driving on ice at 400mph.
I'm going to have to learn how to control the car as it accelerates from "normal" wheel grip below 200mph, through a period of almost-no-grip-at-all-oh-help-it's-all-over-the-place-like-driving-on-ice, to above 500mph where the steering is becoming super-fast.
Just to make things more complicated, we also need to assess the lateral stability as we increase the speed, so I need to learn how to control the car and try to measure its stability, all at the same time. Luckily, I love a challenge.
I do know they put effort into assessing different profiles, including some that had quite sharp ridges/edges. Looks like they ended up with quite a subtle shape.
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A bit more:
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28737132
A few notes (PDF) about manufacture and materials:
https://www.innovaltec.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/BLOODHOUND-SSC-Innoval-Technology-involvement-March-15-v2.pdf (https://www.innovaltec.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/BLOODHOUND-SSC-Innoval-Technology-involvement-March-15-v2.pdf).
AA7037 aluminum.
A video on spin testing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIpVwBVTwCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIpVwBVTwCY)
A static image from what looks like the spin test rig, from https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20141023-the-worlds-fastest-wheels (https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20141023-the-worlds-fastest-wheels), posted in 2014:
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/wwfeatures/live/1280_720/images/live/p0/29/8b/p0298b79.jpg)
I don't know if this shape was that used in South Africa. The lid of the test rig weighs 10,200 kg, presumably in case of what the SpaceX guys call a 'rapid unplanned disassembly' (RUD). :-D :?
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Thanks for posting that info. The wheel shape looks good. It would not take a tall ridge to make a big difference for the better, is my guess. Maybe 12mm tall?
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Oops, I forgot the attachment. Titanium might be a good material for the ridge. It expands less than aluminum when heated. The ridge ring would lock onto the wheel tighter when the assembly heats up. Also, Ti is strong and ductile, especially at elevated temps.
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Mayoman presentations to the Ancient Aviators: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/okrhyxnrc1mlzvr/AACfpRdJ3Q79hhP8YL830P46a?dl=0
Not quite the same without his narration but good stuff just the same! :cheers: :cheers:
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The idea of a titanium ridge ring in the post before last is not a good idea. Impact with a big rock just under the surface could smash the ring enough so it deforms and stretches out to a larger diameter. It would come off of the wheel and interesting events would follow. A ridge would need to be incorporated into a new one-piece wheel.
It seems the vehicle transitions from wheel dependent steering to aero based directional stability at higher speeds. How does the car be steered at high speed? It seems moveable surfaces such as rudder flaps are prohibited by the regulations.
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What regulation prohibits augmenting the two wheel steering (yaw control) with aerodynamic rudder control? Likewise, there isn't a prohibition of aerodynamic pitch control (canard fins) either. I suppose at some speed the aerodynamic rudder provides more yaw control than the two wheels. When I spoke with Andy Green several years ago about the rear wheel steering on the Thrust SSC (it is dynamically unstable) he said the aerodynamic steering controls saved the project.
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Whilst not saying that moving control devices have to be used, the FIA make sure that they are permitted - abstract is from Appendix D - 2019.
D2.3.3 Category C: Special Automobiles.
D2.3.3.a These Records may be subdivided according to the type of engine used (jet, rocket, etc.).
D2.3.3.b The use of moveable aerodynamic devices is permitted.
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I may have missed it but I haven't seen anything in the Bloodhound design or photos of the realized car which makes me think the vertical tail can move.
Ditto for Thrust SSC and Aussie Invader 5R.
On AI5R and on Bloodhound it seems like the front canards may be adjusted for angle of attack. Whether that's dynamic or not isn't clear. I think Thrust SSC had a means to adjust rear ride height.
Tim
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I may have missed it but I haven't seen anything in the Bloodhound design or photos of the realized car which makes me think the vertical tail can move.
Ditto for Thrust SSC and Aussie Invader 5R.
On AI5R and on Bloodhound it seems like the front canards may be adjusted for angle of attack. Whether that's dynamic or not isn't clear. I think Thrust SSC had a means to adjust rear ride height.
Tim
Bloodhound does not have canards. Some early renders showed them, but they were never installed.
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What regulation prohibits augmenting the two wheel steering (yaw control) with aerodynamic rudder control? Likewise, there isn't a prohibition of aerodynamic pitch control (canard fins) either. I suppose at some speed the aerodynamic rudder provides more yaw control than the two wheels. When I spoke with Andy Green several years ago about the rear wheel steering on the Thrust SSC (it is dynamically unstable) he said the aerodynamic steering controls saved the project.
Thrust SSC did not have any sort of aerodynamic steering controls.
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If moveable rudders and canards make driving at high speed safer, why would it be prohibited? Sounds like the rules need to be updated to today's standards.
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One time, years ago, I asked a guy how they steer a rocket in space. It was in reference to the Saturn 5 rocket that launches the astronauts. He said the nozzles where the flames exit the back end can be adjusted so the center of thrust can be varied to steer the rocket.
The sonic shock wave in front of the wheels might be disturbing the sand so the Bloodhound is skating on top of a layer of non-cohesive material. That can explain its squirrely behavior at speed. Some sort of steering that does not depend on the wheels might need to be installed before the next visit to Africa.
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Apparently I misunderstood what Andy Green told me. He was probably relating that the yaw stability provided by the vertical stabilizer overcame the steering instability as the speed rapidly increased. Nonetheless the Thrust SSC achieved the memorable first - exceeding Mach 1 on land for the first time in an automobile. I attached (I hope) some photos of the Thrust SSC stabilizer.
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Interesting, I wasn't aware of that component.
Below is a photo I took in September 1997. The bit of bodywork directly beneath (visually) the spray can appears to end in a somewhat different spot than it does in the museum photo. Also, the ride height appears different, in that the wheel hub is visible, in front of the crew member's left leg.
Edit: After a quick check of the cutaway drawing in Noble's book Thrust it looks like this difference may be due to suspension droop, there appear to be struts in the rear.
Great stuff, thanks!
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I thought I had sent all three photos. I think I got it this time.
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I may be waaaay off track on this,
but...... if the issue is drivability at speed (over 650 mph.) , I ask myself: what is the difference between the cars that have done it and those that haven't.
When I compare the design of Bloodhound VS. Thrust, the thing that is most apparent to me is the track width of the front tires. Width = Stability.
Thrust has proven that the "reverse trike" platform has merit, and that being wide doesn't mean going slow.
From seeing the control issues of the Bloodhound, the Carbiliner and the NAE, they all have one thing in common, the small FA "tricycle" design of the vehicles.
I'm no engineering genius, just a backyard mechanic, but in my world (dirt), width is good. Give me a wide stance anytime.
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Interesting, I wasn't aware of that component.
Below is a photo I took in September 1997. The bit of bodywork directly beneath (visually) the spray can appears to end in a somewhat different spot than it does in the museum photo. Also, the ride height appears different, in that the wheel hub is visible, in front of the crew member's left leg.
Edit: After a quick check of the cutaway drawing in Noble's book Thrust it looks like this difference may be due to suspension droop, there appear to be struts in the rear.
Great stuff, thanks!
It had struts but it also had active rear suspension. They could raise and lower the rear ride height to control the down force. That system gave them trouble late in the program when it suffered a structural failure on a fast run.
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Interesting, I wasn't aware of that component.
Below is a photo I took in September 1997. The bit of bodywork directly beneath (visually) the spray can appears to end in a somewhat different spot than it does in the museum photo. Also, the ride height appears different, in that the wheel hub is visible, in front of the crew member's left leg.
Edit: After a quick check of the cutaway drawing in Noble's book Thrust it looks like this difference may be due to suspension droop, there appear to be struts in the rear.
Great stuff, thanks!
It had struts but it also had active rear suspension. They could raise and lower the rear ride height to control the down force. That system gave them trouble late in the program when it suffered a structural failure on a fast run.
I'm not an expert either, but isn't "active rear suspension" a bit misleading? From memory, I thought the ride height at the rear could be adjusted when stationary (e.g. in the pits), but not dynamically during a run.
Or I could be getting it confused with Thrust2 ...
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Interesting, I wasn't aware of that component.
Below is a photo I took in September 1997. The bit of bodywork directly beneath (visually) the spray can appears to end in a somewhat different spot than it does in the museum photo. Also, the ride height appears different, in that the wheel hub is visible, in front of the crew member's left leg.
Edit: After a quick check of the cutaway drawing in Noble's book Thrust it looks like this difference may be due to suspension droop, there appear to be struts in the rear.
Great stuff, thanks!
It had struts but it also had active rear suspension. They could raise and lower the rear ride height to control the down force. That system gave them trouble late in the program when it suffered a structural failure on a fast run.
I'm not an expert either, but isn't "active rear suspension" a bit misleading? From memory, I thought the ride height at the rear could be adjusted when stationary (e.g. in the pits), but not dynamically during a run.
Or I could be getting it confused with Thrust2 ...
SSC was active. Thrust2 was adjustable between runs. When they had the structural failure on SSC, they tried the next run with it locked out. That was almost catastrophic as the extra down force in the transonic speed range buried the front wheels in the desert and the car got divergent. They then switched back to active but with a limited range of movement.
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It is entirely possible to have an aerodynamically stable vehicle that is not going in the intended direction with no means to realign it. Both stability and steering control are essential.
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...I'm no engineering genius, just a backyard mechanic, but in my world (dirt), width is good. Give me a wide stance anytime.
I understand your thinking but my understanding is a wide vehicle would generate much too much aerodynamic drag...you'd never get to 800 mph.
...And I thought Bloodhound seemed remarkably stable above 500 mph - or perhaps I'm missing something.
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That is what I am worried about and why I crawled out of my hollow log to say something. Stability is part of the high speed handling equation. That seems to be figured out. Steering at speed is the other part. Has anything been done about this?
It appears that wheel based steering might not work. It would be crazy to depend on it alone. A non-wheel based steering method is needed as a primary means of directional control or as a backup steering system.
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Functionally, steering that is not wheel-based makes sense to me. But I'm not sure it's legal per all the
organizations that sanction the runs. Maybe it should be made broadly legal?
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Functionally, steering that is not wheel-based makes sense to me. But I'm not sure it's legal per all the
organizations that sanction the runs. Maybe it should be made broadly legal?
Certainly the FIA don't have any restrictions on steering for unlimited world land speed record cars...don't know about anyone else but Bloodhound is going for the FIA record so it's not a problem. As long as it's got 4 (or more) wheels and steering, throttle and brakes are controlled by the driver - there are no technical restrictions to worry about...anything goes!
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In 1962 Craig Breedlove's Spirit of America had a fixed (non-steering) front wheel and a steering fin in front of it. Also, no vertical stabilizer. The result at Bonneville was he could not steer the car. The following year, after considerable redesign, the articulating front wheel was the steering method and the vertical stabilizer appeared. Result? A new absolute world land speed record, first over 400 mi/h, certified by FIM.
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Some news about the bloodhound.https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51495610 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51495610)
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After all that blather about the HTP rocket, no mention of the required thrust. I might just have one in my garage.
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After all that blather about the HTP rocket, no mention of the required thrust. I might just have one in my garage.
Wikipedia says they need 40kN of thrust from the rocket to reach 800mph. Whereas the BBC article mentions 75% of the jet, which would anything up to about 65kN
I am always amazed that, after the Blue Flame showed how it should be done 50 years ago, no one has since built a serious rocket-powered LSR contender. After all, it?s not rocket science ... :friday
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Rosco McGlashan seems to agree that it IS rocket science. He just needs a solid sponsor. Australia is such a sports mad country that I thought he could easily get his project financed.