Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Wicked6 on December 05, 2018, 12:47:35 AM
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Wicked 6 is a collection of Hot Rod builders in the Vancouver BC area. We are just starting out on a build using a Cobalt 2.0 litre mechanically supercharged engine , T56 transmission. The body is a Fg 27 T. We are using a Track T nose, 2x4x 1/8 basic frame with 1 5/8 seamless tube x 1/8 wall roll bar and ladder frame.
The intent is to get 4 of us into the 150mph club. Most of us have been that fast or almost in drag cars or high performance cars. We were going to build a belly tank but the time restraints on the build, we want to run in 2019, made us change direction. We also intend to street this after we get sick of straightline.
I wanted to put some pics up but all my phone pics are too big.
They will be coming later.
We are at 112” WB, our front and rear suspension is basic hot rod, split wishbones, buggy spring front, coil over rear. We were going to use a Speedway Eng. Midget QC, but are now going with a 9” Ford. We have 3 centres that we can set up Ceuta diff. Ratios and spools.
The 1949/50 Navarro roadster was our inspiration.
Feel free to offer suggestions and/or advice.
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Consider a contingency plan in case this doesn't happen:
"after we get sick of straightline"
good luck :-D
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Consider a contingency plan in case this doesn't happen:
"after we get sick of straightline"
good luck :-D
Well let's break this down... If you go as fast as you can in the 150 club (159.99) in 2 1/4 miles you are less than 27 MPH from the record. My guess is one of you will break out of the club limit if you are not careful. So while you are building, you might want to keep your eye on the LSR rules and what it will take to make the car compliant... which means it may not end up being a street car... and you will get another 3/4 mile of WOT to play with. :-D :-D :-D
Have fun with your project, build it to be safe and go fast :cheers:
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Good advice – build a cage to SCTA specs. Nothing says it can't be removable.
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Thanks for the replies. Getting to post pics here is more of a problem for me right now.
I'm hoping that you guys can answer a few ?'s
do you run an engine cooling radiator, or recirculating water tank?
is an engine plate/firewall a good idea with solid front engine mounts?
what would be an expected weight goal for this class?
We are not complete amateurs to car construction, I have built Midget frames from 4140, 1/4 midgets from 4140, rebuilt a couple of rag and tube Pipers, so tube construction isn't a big concern, it is all the peculiarities to a Bonneville/ElMirage car that is foreign to us at the moment.
Help and advice is both requested and appreciated.
Pat
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I used a recirculating tank. Some say put a heat exchanger in the tank and run hoses from the engine through the heat exchanger. I thought on my unblown engine that was overkill. Your experience may vary. Air to water is aero drag. My G/GR weighed 1650.
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Good advice – build a cage to SCTA specs. Nothing says it can't be removable.
Taken from the web, circa 2006:
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Thanks for the pics, and the info re water cooling. We have a water to air inter cooler that we will want to add an ice cooler to.
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I agree you should build to the SCTA book. We ran a basically stock 3S-GTE celica engine back in 1998. I had a 177+ 2 1/4 time slip with a hole in one piston (made the record that year with a coasting through average of 168).
At fairly low boost, Dan put the record at 181 in 2000 (with a best mile at 186 and we kept the boost down to keep from breaking our last engine).
The fellows with plenty of experience told us that "about 275 HP will get you the first 175 mph in a decent mod roadster". They were exactly right.
It sure gets a lot harder reaching toward 200 and we never made it.
If it was me, I would build the wheelbase out to make room for all the stuff you need to get in there. The reality is that a few times on the salt and you will have enough corrosion started to need a rebuild on the car should you want to make a street rod. We started out with a little suspension, had handling trouble, got good and welcome advice from Mike Cook and solved that problem by going rigid at all 4 corners.
That's the basics of the car that held that class record for 10 years or so. You could certainly build a successful project and spend less money and time than a compromise would require.
Just my two cents.
JimL
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All the stuff we need to get in there is the question hardest to answer at the moment. We’re not running dry sump, but we need the water cooling, gas tank, battery, fire extinguisher, and most likely a cooling system for a remote intercooler. The engine has a water cooled intercooler in the intake manifold that we can route the water through some ice water cooling tank system, I’m thinking. We were at one point thinking of solid rear and sprung front, but it was suggested by another racer that we would be best running suspension both ends. I guess we don’t need a lot of movement, so very stiff spring rates may be our best bet. Yes, no?
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I would suggest using fairly soft springs for the rear axle as this give you the best traction and limit the travel to around 1-2 inches. My son and I run a small lakester and we run about 100# springs on the rear shocks, we set the ride height where we want and then set up the shock with a fairly soft snubber around the shock shaft and set the shock travel at 1 to 1 1/2 inchs to the snubber. This keeps us from bottoming but provides a very compliant rear axle travel that sticks to the track. The salt is basically pretty flat but some years, 2017, it can have some pot holes that make suspension a good idea. Solidly suspended cars with any kind of HP literally bound from one pot hole to the next and there is not much traction when the tires are in the air.
Rex
Schimmer and Son IF/L 984
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Just thinking out loud, here.....one of the tough parts of the 27T body build is getting the driver down as deep as possible, keeping in mind that the foot-floor cannot be below the bottom of the body line. That driver area is very narrow after you get cage tubes inside the body, and the driveshaft is now extremely close to the drivers seat. Building for rear suspension travel means either compromising the drivers position (and cage height sticking in the air) or raising the car high enough to allow that driveshaft to have up and down movement without hitting the driver. In addition, you need enough room to shield the drivers hip and kidneys from an exploded U-joint.
We were warned about that by many successful builders and so decided not to amplify the problem by letting the rear u-joint move up and down. Mod Roadsters can have the drivers back all the way to the rear axle transverse center-line, which puts the nose of the diff right where you would really like to have that space for the drivers anatomy.
Keep in mind that the engine/trans will be sitting higher than you expected, which means the front end of the driveshaft is pretty high compared to the drivers bottom position. We actually used a Toyota diff with "offset to the right pinion", and mounted the engine/trans to the right to gain what we could. We also pushed the engine forward to gain a little more room in the cockpit for that intercooler tank. Doing that step also simplified the firewall and left more available firewall area to make good, fire protected pass-throughs for all those water lines. 27T doesn't have much firewall area to play with.
The solid rear axle mounting made it easy to set up the rear brake components and have enough looped flexline length to be able to pull the wheel/axle/backing plate packages far enough to swap out differentials without complete teardown or opening the brake fluid lines. It also left good room for the parachute pull-point mounting.
Jim Deist instructed us to put the pull-point height (at the back of the body) on the line of a string pulled from the vehicle true CG, 35 feet back with the end of the string 7 feet above the ground. That worked perfect, over the years. If you don't build to go fast enough to use a chute, you will be missing out on some of the fun! It is soooo cool to feel that chute grab your car....you'll like it every time.
I don't think the traction advantage of rear suspension will overcome the added aero drag of putting the driver and cage too high out of the body. Those round tube roll cages have ferocious aero drag, and this becomes a case of "less = more" by minimizing that exposed height. You can't do much about those open wheels hanging in the air, so the only aero you can improve on inexpensively is total frontal area. We all pretty much use the same body....it's the cage and windscreen choices that have the biggest effect when you start going fast. Get that driver as deep as you can, within the rules....and then you build from there.
Re: tanks....we ran a water to water intercooler tank just to the right of the drivers legs, and a 16 gallon cooling tank in the right side of the cockpit cage area. We used heavy sheet metal shield around that big tank, which was great that day at '99 Speedweek when the boost ran away, blew the head gasket and torched away parts of the head and block, and exploded the water connections into the cockpit tank.
The true cause of that mess was the necessity to solid mount the engine...which vibrated apart some linkage. It's always some dumb little thing that makes the biggest problems.
Over my years on the salt, it seems to me that if the salt is so rough that you need suspension....it will probably not let you get up to a well established record. The better years make a big difference, because a lot of the good records were set on decent salt. That just seems to be the way it goes, and it doesn't go as well..... as time has gone by. My first Speedweek was wonderful salt, all week, back in 1969.
.....sorry folks....I ramble on as the memories come back. It's called old-age and "decrepitude", as my sister used to say. Thanks for letting me ramble.
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Thank you for rambling. You have enlightened me on something I wasn’t aware of, that being that the level of the feet has to be at body level. We were hoping to lower the seat to almost belly pan level, ie, 5” below the body line. The driveshaft, seat interference is something I’ve been looking at and going mmmmmm.
It looks like the Center line of the engine will be about 2” above the bottom of the body, which is also 2” above the bottom of our chassis rails. Our engine is 27” long, and with putting the water tank beside the driver like you describe, we are hoping to put the gas tank in front of the motor. There appears to be sufficient room. We’re thinking 5 gals of fuel should be sufficient for a 3 mile drive at wot.
I find your suggestion of little to no suspension to be interesting, we were going to go without rear suspension originally, but changed our minds after input received.
I was looking at the seating arrangements this afternoon and figured we would be sitting 1/2 into the trunk to get adequate legroom for clutch, brake and go fast pedal.
My ‘18 rule book should be here tomorrow or Monday, so I will have the latest info.
Regards, Pat, aka Wicked 6
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My 2011 rules don’t seem to have any seat height restrictions in MR. I will be interested in the 2018 rules
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So step 1 for anything G/BG in my opinion is starting with a Nissan RB20det. You're going to run into problems keeping that motor cool at the boost levels you'll need for a record >200mph if that turns into a goal. Cylinder head surface area is your friend. If you're actually just looking for 150mph an ecotec should do the trick. For what it's worth, I've never raced an ecotec or RB in LSR, but if I had the choice... Also may not be wise to use a T56 in anything > 4th gear due to the parasitic loss in overdrive. Most all successful LSR efforts are accomplished with the ideal final drive and a 1:1 trans ratio in final gear.
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I don’t think we considered the T56 top gear situation. We are changing from a QC to a Ford 9” for that reason. Something else for us to consider. On the cooling , we are not going for a record on this first build and runs. We are hoping to make 130mph runs, and MAYBE, a 150, if all the stars are aligned.
We are a group of Hot Rodders and Rod and Custom builders that have always had a Bonneville on our bucket list. A couple of us are looking old age in the eye, so now is the time, we think.
What are your thoughts on a heat exchanger for engine cooling?
This engine was donated to us from a very low mileage Cobalt SS. That fitted in with our budget!
One of the 6 involved has just installed a non blown version in his Model A Tudor sedan.
Maybe we will be :dhorse:
Regards and thanks for input,
Pat.
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Blown front engine car is a pretty heavy fire suit and boots. There wont be enough room for a brake pedal. Hand brake tall enough to reach when loading/unloading or hand rolling in the pits....is a real lifesaver. Every year there are more injuries in the pits or loading/unloading....than ever happen on the course.
Really hard to feel the brake pedal well in those fireboots. Also, your right foot is hooked under the safety bar for positive gas pedal return. You won't be lifting it easy to get to a third pedal, plus the safety net over your legs reduces ease of switching foot positions.....so .....handbrake you can reach with arm restraints correctly set.
I used a twin piston master with both sections joined together in the plumbing to get enough wheel cylinder stroke for the rear brakes. It will move enough fluid (compared to a big bore single master) with less potential for sucking salty moisture into the bore when releasing the brake. It also puts the master in a place that is easier to work on every year.
We had so much good advice from the long term regulars.....it was a real advantage solving problems we had never even thought of.
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Jim L "keeping in mind that the foot-floor cannot be below the bottom of the body line." Where in the hell does it say that.
My feet have been below my lower body line in my roadster for 40 years but not below the frame and above my secondary flooring.
It's not every ones intent to build a car channeled and right on the ground and go 300 mph.
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I was thinking the same thing. That sorta applies to Street Roadsters, although you can get away using the "stock floor" – including taking advantage of the lower pockets built into the 30-31 Model A's for side curtain storage.
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A preliminary drawing of our chassis. Our T56 turns out to be a T50. So it is a 5 speed, with a .8 final. We were intending to go with a 3.08 gear set. So 4th(1:1) and 6500rpm should get us to 150, with 28” tires.
So that’s the plan for now,
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We decided today to run a GM Powerglide transmission and forget about the clutch, and overdrive and all of that. It will make the install way easier for us, and thanks to some input from a record holder running a TH400 on an Ecotec, we have gone the automatic route.
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Wish you all the very best on your build. :cheers:
Like the reference to Seasick Steve.👍👍👍👍
Regards, Mike.
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Not much internet access out here.... But to clarify.....
JD, I was not saying it is in the rule book....just thinking how we built with bottom edge of body at bottom edge of belly pan. That pretty much reguires the secondary flooring close to top of frame rails because (as you reminded me 25 years ago) there needs to be safety cage under the driver as well as around and over. You said dont get bttom cage tubes in the way of feet getting in and out of the cage. Tha was exactly right.
I should just butt out, now. I keep thinking in terms of cheapest, simplest way to go fast with a really small engine. That tends to color a fellows opinions, but I guess it doesnt really help other folks.
GB SK VA
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I have checked the ‘18 rules and have contacted Russ Eyres and have the info I need to keep going. What I was wanting to do is OK by the rules. The seat will be “sunken” a bit below the main rails, but it will be above the hoops that carry the belly pan.
He also answered a few other questions I had.
Regards, Pat
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As I remember the rules (it been a few years) There is supposed to be a cross member under the seat equal in size to the roll cage material.
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As I remember the rules (it been a few years) There is supposed to be a cross member under the seat equal in size to the roll cage material.
You are correct, we will have 3 that will be considered part of the roll cage. The full layout of the cage isn’t finalized yet, we want the motor and trans to be in place as we build it. Workin it all around the seat, the driveshaft, the dash and steering box and the firewall. Then the gas tank, intercooler and trans cooler all have to be mounted and “isolated” from the driver.
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increase your TE 4+% by getting rid of the Ford 9" look at the GM 7.5 axle
very few records are set in years that you need rear suspension solid on all corners would be my vote
25" rear tires and skinny ones---way out front ANYTHING outside in the breeze is DRAG
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Thanks for input Sparky. We are reverting back to the QC, it is an 8” ring gear Speedway Engineering unit. We are staying with suspension both ends, mainly due to our long term plan of this being street driven later.
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QC= -6% TE
you are going to need more gears than look at a 4L80E with at turbo you can stand the 30,27 25 % drops
look at no TQ converter if you want to consider it can be set up full manual
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We have the 5L50E. 5 speed. I never thought of running it full manual. It is electronic shift.
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not much torque capacity an pretty lousy splits
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Sparky, excuse my lack of expertise on this WO throttle racing stuff, but I was thinking seeing as we are not after acceleration, just a, as quick as possible in 1 mile buildup of speed, the lower torque rating of this tranny would suffice. I think we are playing with a max 300 whp, we’re hoping it will do the job.
The ratio steps is another thing I guess we will have to live with. :?
Thanks for following & giving input.
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its still a drag race---it just has one mile traps except for the really fast guys you need to get your speed and carry it for a mile and you just realized the biggest thing--- nearly everything in LSR is a compromise and trade off
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Our ratios etc.
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Hi, none of my business, but this site is a mentor. Sparky and others are just trying to do just that. These guys are great if you knew them and were face to face having a beer. It just doesn't always come across that way. If I would have had a mentor that had the years of experience that Sparky and other that post on here have I sure could have saved myself a lot of grief. Even though I now have a lot of experience from going to the salt for years, being on this site and reading about ever post. If I knew what I know now my car would be a lot different and I would have saved a lot of money. I have a red hat and made a lot of friends that you can't put a price on, so its all worth it. :-D George
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How fast will the engine turn, and when will it begin to make good power? The transmission ratio choice must make your shift into direct (1.00:1) to drop the engine at or above that point.
The 5L40 shown is not helpful with its 1.60:1 3rd and 1.00:1 direct, that drops (example only) 8,000 RPM at shift out of 3rd to 5,000 RPM in direct. If your engine is not boiling at that speed, you need closer progression when the aero drag is highest.
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Racergeo, it is your business, and I’m so pleased to get the advice and explanations of those who have been there done that!
Panic, thanks for the explanation of what we’re going be hit with. March 2019 we should have the setup on a 160mph 800hp wheel dyno. We will find out then what we will have for power at the shift points.
Would a 2 speed powerglide be a better fit, or a turbo 350?
Just to reassure you all, we are committed to doing this, even if it looks to you that we’re wasting our time, we are not. Our thought going in, rightly or wrongly, is that if a Chevy Cobalt SS is advertised as a 160mph vehicle, if we put all that stuff in our contraption, safely, and within the rules, we will be happy with what we can do with it.
We’re doing this for our satisfaction of saying we ran at Bonneville. Some of us may not get that opportunity again.
So please keep on with your thoughts and suggestions, we really do appreciate it.
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Panic has shown you the way:
To optimize you have to know what your eng. torque /RPM profile is
then chose a trans that will send you back to fat city on the last shift---you may have to over rev your best HP torque
Then chose a tire/ RA (rear axle ratio) the will give you your target speed add weight until you stop tire spin/ add HP until you get to the targeted speed
I was running a 565 BBC with a power glide/gear vendor, 7.5 with 2.14 and 25" tires by shifting the thing at 8200 I was barely able to pull the first shift until it got back in the power ban but the last shift put me absolutely in "FAT CITY" on my engs power curve---- Yes we built the eng to be able to perform during that last gear from about 255 to 310
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A question for those who may know, does a modified roadster qualify for the 150mph club?
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Racergeo, it is your business, and I’m so pleased to get the advice and explanations of those who have been there done that!
Panic, thanks for the explanation of what we’re going be hit with. March 2019 we should have the setup on a 160mph 800hp wheel dyno. We will find out then what we will have for power at the shift points.
Would a 2 speed powerglide be a better fit, or a turbo 350?
Just to reassure you all, we are committed to doing this, even if it looks to you that we’re wasting our time, we are not. Our thought going in, rightly or wrongly, is that if a Chevy Cobalt SS is advertised as a 160mph vehicle, if we put all that stuff in our contraption, safely, and within the rules, we will be happy with what we can do with it.
We’re doing this for our satisfaction of saying we ran at Bonneville. Some of us may not get that opportunity again.
So please keep on with your thoughts and suggestions, we really do appreciate it.
Go for it. Enjoy the learning curve. You're in good hands here. 👍👍👍👍
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A question for those who may know, does a modified roadster qualify for the 150mph club?
Pat... https://www.saltflats.com/I50_Club2015.htm
You need to read the rules and requirements.... then only you will be able to answer that question. If you build it as a street legal car within the rules then probably yes... if you build it as a legal race car, then maybe yes... and either way you build it you can ask the USFRA to let you run in the 150 club.
They are safety oriented... build it safe and within the 150 rules and I'll bet you and your buds will be fine.
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That says it all Robert. Thank you, we will need special permission because it is not a street legal car. It will be a legal race car!
We will see, we have 45 days ahead of the event to ask.
We build on.
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If you build it as a legal LSR G/BGMR your group will be able it run it for less entry money than 150 club. Each person is an entry in club racing... so far the USFRA does not charge for extra drivers like the SCTA does.
Of course it costs more to build a legal race car... but you can run it at more meets...
start taking pictures... we want to see what you do :cheers:
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Stainless1, I would if I could! I have no luck posting pics on this forum. I have some stuff on the hamb, no problem, I have hundreds of pics on various model aircraft and model engineering sites, but this one has me miffed. :?
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we all fight that-- work with pixels and size some use other sites and post links ---- have fun---when you have a bunch of buds to PLAY with the time in the sand box is a lot more fun
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If you are posting directly to the site and not using hosting, the Pic total has to be less than 500K bytes.... you can post up to 4 pics, so 4 at 124K, 3 at 165K, 2 at 249K...
You can reduce size several ways...
This has been discussed on several threads... search the site or google to figure it out... or just ask one of the grandkids 4 or older how to do it :roll: :cheers:
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I just tried doing 1 at 300kb and no luck :-( I will try again with this post from my laptop instead of my iPhone.
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Wow, look at that 2 pics, 1 rotated for some reason. Try a couple more.
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OK, so I have to transfer my pics from my phone to my laptop. Then resize them in Photoshop, then I can post them. Thanks for the push guys :cheers:
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. . . and rotate them in PhotoShop.
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Stan is your monitor too heavy for you to turn :evil: you should get a laptop like all us youngsters... they are easier to see sidways pics
:cheers: :dhorse: :cheers:
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Wait'll you see your new lakester in the Program.
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. . . and rotate them in PhotoShop.
They looked OK in photoshop. I did rotate them originally in my phone, so they must have a memory,(unlike me).
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Wait'll you see your new lakester in the Program.
If you are using the old lakester, the photo is not actually rotated... the car was... at least by the looks of the body work :roll:
OK back to your Modified... :cheers:
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Hate to say this, but, we have decided against the automatic. We are reverting to the T50 that we were going to use originally. The ratios aren’t that bad, and a couple of close ratio sets are available. The biggest hurdle is an adaptor to mount it. There was a manufacturer of them, but it seems he has closed up shop. We will get the engine and trans mated, one way or another.
Our only discussion now is about running a radiator or a water tank. What are the pros and cons of both of these ?
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Sparky will tell ya go with the best of both.... put your radiator in a tank...
Do you have room and incoming air for a radiator... knowing that you may get drag from that :| air in has to find an out.
I would go tank and thermostat... but I'm just a guy with an opinion.... YMMV :cheers:
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Haven’t been back here for a while. We are progressing with the build, the motor and trans is now mounted, the firewall hoop is tacked in as is the hoop to hold the nose.
We decided finally on a 5 speed manual out of a Solstice. Maybe not the optimum choice, but it was available and donated.
After resizing some pics I will post them. Thanks once again for some guidance.