Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: mc2032 on November 25, 2018, 01:01:56 PM
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Big shout out and thanks to Stainless for helping (doing) converting an S&S Super E carb to alcohol. We (he) chucked the carb in the mill and drilled, reamed and tapped for a new bigger discharge tube. The needle sets range from stock to race to alcohol. The discharge tubes are from Super E, G and D fuel/alcohol. The alcohol discharge tube is juuuust a bit bigger than stock but then again you need about 2.3 times more alcohol than gas. Next on the list is getting the bike on the dyno to see what a few more degrees timing on gas does then swap carbs and see how alcohol works out. Next trip out to Stainless' will be to fab new/more jets. .84" jets used for race gas times 2.3 means new jets in the .128" to .140" range.
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Needle and seat sets. The far right set is for fuel/alcohol. In '12 I tried using this set with race fuel but could not get it to keep from overflowing at just gravity pressures let alone 2 to 2 1/2 psi (facet brand fuel pump and purolator regulator). Have been using the 6AN race set since with good results. Hoping it will flow enough alcohol.
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discharge tubes
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Hi,
We run a 1"7/8 MGAL S&S, gas converted by myself to methanol, on my 1954 supercharged Harley 900 side valve KHK...
I rerouted all the iddle/transition circuit outside the carb to clear the std emulsifier from any hindrances.
Also done a new fuel inlet valve with a twice diam needle, 4 times the flow, 1/2" feed pipe, not to mention an extra empty SU float chamber cause the beast was also leaning badly after 100 yards or so due to not getting the fuel it was asking for... The increased fuel capacity of the carb is about 300cc
(https://i.imgur.com/kFNbUfU.jpg)
We started in 2011 with similar jets as what you mention above... result, VERY lean and a 107mph rookie run.
In 2013, we returned and the bigger we drilled the jets, the more speed we got at Speed Week.
Ended up with a 121.775mph run with a .178 main jet AND a .137 Mikuni auxiliary jet with a needle in it, about 1.5 turn out.
The beast drank between 3/4 to 1 litre of methanol per mile and burned every mL of it.
(https://i.imgur.com/500iWO8.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdLpB9xATSQ&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdLpB9xATSQ&feature=youtu.be)
Patrick
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Sounds like I underestimated the volume of alcohol required! Thanks for the heads up. Interweb said 2.3 to 2.5 more and that's where I was going to start but now will look at fabbing really big jets. My pistons thank you.
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I started like you did, use an estimated 2.3 times the surface required for gasoline...
The supercharger calcs. I devised/used to make my engine gave me a ratio of 0.6 litres of methanol per mn at 5500rpm.
I also did another calc. by extrapolating the known jet I used on a 175cc OHV racer I had that also ran on methanol.
Same results...
But once on the Salt Flats, it all went through the window!!! :-D
Be also prepared to increase dramatically your float chamber volume.
A 70's S&S MGAL chamber can hold 175cm3, it proved inadequate...
Our fastest run as above used about 2 litres of methanol for 2 miles in just 1mn and a bit.
I'm not too sure if methanol, ethanol or alcohol will all like the rubber bit on your inlet needle???
A bit of weight there like on mine might help your sealing problems. You can also see that I made the valve body with more thread, this to raise or to lower the level in the float chamber, useful since I wasn't sure of the methanol density at the Bonneville elevation.
The pistons I use, std cast K Model "Superior" Dixie, got a bit hot when I was running that lean, but nothing too dramatic, they were reused untouched...
Personally, with the std jet calcs that relates to sea level usage, I thought I would be way too rich at Bonneville elevation with less oxygen and less atmospheric pressure...
The contrary was actually true!!! Strange...
Patrick
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Patrick, A picture of the fuel system currently on the bike. Gravity feed thru a Pingle Guzzler remote shut off valve to a 4-6 psi fuel pump. Then regulated to 2-2.5 psi with a puck style regulator dead heading at the carb. The little pump seems to flow a fair amount of fuel when allowed to flow freely. So far the carb has not ran dry during a pass. Plan is to redo the system to make it return to the tank after flowing to the carb and add a gauge to verify pressure (picked up a cute little liquid filled 0-15 one and hope it is accurate at this low of pressure). Also, when your best friend has access to Gates Belts and Hose fire sleeve, you take full advantage. Chicks dig fire sleeved stuff. Not.
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Tried alcohol in my younger days - had to remove the main jets - didn't run any faster - just made the carbs icy!
Sounds like all the holes have to be made much bigger than expected! :cheers:
BTW: Firing order is potato - potato! :-o :-D
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Gentlemen,
To add some additional credence to your experiences, I'll add some of my "generalized" experiences with alcohol Vs gas:
A/ With my engineering hat on: Calculations are nice, they give you a place to start, rather than "wild" guessing . . . . but you don't want to be "overconfident" before dyno or other testing. I prefer to "over compensate" for alcohol,
for the reasons Patrick mentioned.
2/ With my dyno technician hat on: Believe the information that the instrumentation generates for you. If your engine performs differently than what is expected, determine the cause and/or develop a "new theory". Don't "kill it"
on the dyno pursuing a pet theory or calculation. Reading plugs on alcohol is difficult, at least for me. I use a borescope and a leakdown tester to keep the patient alive.
d/ With my track tuner hat on: Give the engine what it wants, or else! Aforementioned borescope and leakdown tester are constant companions along with an air density gauge and spark plug magnifier.
Last thought: IF, at the track, your tools indicate your baby is half dead for some reason or other, the "experienced" choice is to shut it down, no "just one more run" frivolity.
It tends to work out better when rebuilding engines that have not been "terminated" or "granulated", but hey, JMHO. It can be really difficult and/or expensive to replace old, rare pieces.
:cheers: Happy Holidaze!
Stillnobeatadeadreindeerboy!
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I will re-share a story...
We were running N20 working on my Red Hat... we always do a compression check after every run when using that stuff, so we make the first run, #3 is down 5 lbs from pre-run value... no big deal... we qualified
we make the second run, #3 is down another 5 lbs... record set... I turn up the N20 and fuel...
we make a third run now against our own record... almost 3 MPH faster... #3 drops another 10 lbs... we look the engine over, look down the plug holes, check everything but find nothing, maybe the rings are going away in #3... I turn up the N20 and fuel again... just to make up for #3 losing compression....
Middle of the 4th mile motor goes bang, I throw out the chute and turn in... oil dripping from the belly pan, but no parts.
Open the panels back in the pits, the case and cylinders are divided but the crank and head are holding the 2 pieces mostly together...
Forensic exam determined the compression issue.... not rings... compression height of #3 was decreasing as the Carrillo rod was bending... until it bent enough for the counterweight to find enough of it....
You can see it was working on the rod... a little :dhorse:
Mark... can't find a dead reindeer gif on the web... you have one?
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I started like you did, use an estimated 2.3 times the surface required for gasoline...
The supercharger calcs. I devised/used to make my engine gave me a ratio of 0.6 litres of methanol per mn at 5500rpm.
I also did another calc. by extrapolating the known jet I used on a 175cc OHV racer I had that also ran on methanol.
Same results...
But once on the Salt Flats, it all went through the window!!! :-D
Be also prepared to increase dramatically your float chamber volume.
A 70's S&S MGAL chamber can hold 175cm3, it proved inadequate...
Our fastest run as above used about 2 litres of methanol for 2 miles in just 1mn and a bit.
I'm not too sure if methanol, ethanol or alcohol will all like the rubber bit on your inlet needle???
A bit of weight there like on mine might help your sealing problems. You can also see that I made the valve body with more thread, this to raise or to lower the level in the float chamber, useful since I wasn't sure of the methanol density at the Bonneville elevation.
The pistons I use, std cast K Model "Superior" Dixie, got a bit hot when I was running that lean, but nothing too dramatic, they were reused untouched...
Personally, with the std jet calcs that relates to sea level usage, I thought I would be way too rich at Bonneville elevation with less oxygen and less atmospheric pressure...
The contrary was actually true!!! Strange...
Patrick
Be also prepared to increase dramatically your float chamber volume. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Mike, current turbo header carb location configuration keeps me from adding to the depth of the float bowl. That's where I am hoping the fuel pump will step in for bowl volume. Purolator-Facet fuel pump is rated at 1.5 to 4 psi and 25 gph. I have another pump as a spare and it may or may not be bigger (psi and flow). The float bowl volume is 4.5 oz (or 135 ml in Canada, England and South Africa). The current (race, threaded 6AN) needle/seat inlet diameter is .160", the fuel/alcohol (also threaded 6AN) inlet dia. is .238" but that is the one that floods at gravity pressure from the tank. Since I haven't fired the bike on corn squeezings yet, this is still academic. I have access to Stainless's shop and can make any size of main jet, just need to dial in on a size range. As I am less than a novice at this, any advice or redirection is appreciated.
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I'm a little confused. The topic of your thread here is "E85 Carb Conversion", but the discussion seems to be in relation to methanol. While both ethanol and methanol are alcohols, they don't have the same required air/fuel ratios. Perhaps I'm doing the math wrong, but methanol requires A/F ratio of 6.47 while E85 (85% ethanol) requires 9.76. So which one are you proposing to use?
I did a few more calculations regarding theoretical power increases using methanol or E85 but found that methanol would only result in a theoretical increase in power of 2.2% whilst E85 could result in an increase of 4%. These calculations do not take into account the cooling effect that may increase the density of the mixture, but with the associated problems, I couldn't see the big attraction so opted to stay with gasoline, so far. Now nitromethane - - at over twice the increase in horsepower is a different animal.
Can you check my math there Fordboy or anyone else?
Tom
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Tom, I believe Ross is looking at both fuels.... and planning to go with the one that does best on the dyno.... I just missed a Raptor 700 swingarm and axle on ebay... I'm looking at those to make a bike adapter for my dyno
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Tom, the plan is (hopefully) to use alcohol (ethanol or methanol) or pump E85 as chemical intercooling allowing a little more boost. Draw thru carb/turbo setup is limited to something less than 12-14 psi (last couple of passes were 11ish psi range). It's the lather, rinse repeat thing. With alcohol, hopefully I can add boost which should give more power and rpms. With more rpms, more boost, more power. The bike spins up to 7200-7400 easily/safely in 1st, 2nd and third (basically no load on the motor till past the mile). Too much gear (and a 4 speed transmission with huge jumps between gears) and not enough motor kept rpms to 6500 more or less in 4th thru the 2 and 3 mile. i'd like to be able to pull 7000 plus with the current gearing earlier in the run. and if not, they make all kinds of sized sprockets.
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Too much gear (and a 4 speed transmission with huge jumps between gears) and not enough motor kept rpms to 6500 more or less in 4th thru the 2 and 3 mile. i'd like to be able to pull 7000 plus with the current gearing earlier in the run. and if not, they make all kinds of sized sprockets.
For sure, for our direct drive transmissions, the biggest draw back for land speed racing is the wide ratio between 3rd and 4th with few choices out there. I was lucky to find a Quaiffe/CCM close ratio 4 speed for my B50 with only 11% drop from 3rd to 4th. Unfortunately, 1st gear is only about 1:2, so I have a 75 mph 1st gear in order to get 150 mph in 4th. We can now rebuild a clutch in about an hour!
As far a your fuel choice, I understand the attraction of alcohol and possibly water injection especially with an air cooled motor. For my single cylinder, turbo charging may be out, but supercharging may be a possibility but with the same problems you have. I have thought about first converting to fuel injection and then using blow thru, but it's the learning curve combined with the time and resources to get there. If only I knew then what I know now ..........maybe should have started a bit earlier in life.
Tom, I believe Ross is looking at both fuels.... and planning to go with the one that does best on the dyno.... I just missed a Raptor 700 swingarm and axle on ebay... I'm looking at those to make a bike adapter for my dyno
Stainless, how will you use a Raptor swingarm to make the bike adapter for your dyno?
Tom
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Tom, attached is a picture of an axle hub dyno. Drive in, jack up, remove wheels and tires, add dyno, drop and make a pull. No rollers, no tie downs. So to run a bike you need to make it a trike first hense the raptor swingarm and axle/hub assembly.
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My friend Don Jackson (Salt27) has a rear end out of a 87 Suzuki LT500R Quadracer that looks promising.... I an hoping it will stand up to 250 HP.... No probably not from Ross's Harley :| but maybe from my 1630 Busa motor.... :-o
The fun will continue :cheers:
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Okay, this is not the start of a build diary, but more of a disassembly diary. Stainless got a couple of beers in the mail the other day with this swingarm taped to them. A chocolate stout (ask Don Salt27 for the particulars) good enough to need dial calipers to open. Anyway, after using two torches, a rattle gun and a six foot cheater we broke the swingarm down to this (see below). Plan is to hybridize the quadracer swingarm with the sportster swingarm, bolt them/it to the bike then make noise on the dyno till something works or breaks. As things progress I will start a real build diary, just wanted to thank Don for the assembly lube as well as the lakester/belly tank parts.
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Some assembly lube required. This started out today as a really nice swingarm.
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I'm pleased that the swingarm is being used instead of hanging on my wall for eternity.
As far as the Porter goes, well I sorta ran out of bubble wrap and had to use cans.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to find anything but an IPA in Oregon? Enjoy :cheers:
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Don, we got it apart and it looks stout... or maybe porter :roll: the packing materials are excellent... a great choice. I think we have a plan for the Harley that will also work for the Busa.
Thanks my friend, I owe you :cheers:
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If you don't own a mill or your garage/shop is too small to house one, make friends with someone who does. Chucked the Salt27 swingarm in Stainless' mill and narrowed the front end. The plan is to mount the aluminum arm inside the sportster arm, shim to line up the chain run from drive to driven sprocket. Stainless sourced new 1/2 x 20 studs to replace the stockers in the hubs (will allow bolting the hubs to the dyno adapters). I have bearings and seals on order (receipt soon pending diversion by porch pirate, seems to be common this time of year). A few more bits and pieces to get, a few bushings to fab, some cleaning/degreasing, reassembly and I think it will be go time. More pictures to follow.
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I've been doing a little welding the last couple of days, so while things were cooling I popped a couple of holes in the swingarms... and then mated them together. We will make some spacers when we get the sprocket... Ross found a place that has them in 530 which matches the Harley and Suzuki. Also made a few bushings so it all fits together....
so far.... :cheers:
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Ross, any updates on the dyno conversion?
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Other than new bearings and seals not much to report. Here is a picture of the assembly as of yesterday. The idea is to have enough lateral movement to line up the sprockets then make spacers to lock it down. Hubs still need to be drilled for the bigger studs for the dyno adapters. So other than me finding second gear not a whole lot else needs to be done. Bob has soooo much to do on the Bockscar lakester I have put off leaning on him too much till spring. Plus the other side of the shop is not heated or cooled so waiting for better weather is okay by me. Carb mods are done, I have a stash of small main jets to drill bigger as required for methanol. Fuel line/routing is on tap for this week. I need to get the lines away from hot stuff.
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"Carb mods are done, I have a stash of small main jets to drill bigger as required for methanol."
Ross, If you do not have them, get some small tapered reamers to resize your jets. Tapered vs. drilled holes in jets do make a difference. Just make sure you ream them from the correct end (lol).
John
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Have been able play with the dyno yet? Interested to see what kind of hp increase you see. Do you have a way to measure intake temps to see if there is a difference between the E85 and gas?
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Have not spent much time on the project but now that the weather is warmer will get busy! Will have to ask Stainless if/how we can measure intake temps behind the turbo. Might be a challenge as this setup has almost no plenum volume or length to access or install a temp probe.
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The dyno work has been waiting on better weather and machine time.... someone involved with this project has been too busy building a car to get the last of the mill work started... We need to re-drill the bolt circle in the hubs to move them in a little. We do have some ideas on how to build a fixture to hold the oddly shaped hub... it just takes a little time
:cheers:
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I just had a thought on intake temp... If we have a rubber connection somewhere we could put a hole in a sacrificial one and stick a meat thermometer in it to measure...
If we do that we won't tell Linda :cheers:
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I have an open element egt probe in my port floor as close as i could get to the valves , (about 1.5-2 inch)
on my turbo bikes and found E85 drops the inlet temps around by 20-25c behind the intercooler
with Methanol and no intercooler , one bike runs at around 17c inlet temp and the other 25c , dropping from over 100c at the turbo outlet
i have not logged inlet temps with gas so cant do a complete comparison but expect its only a few deg at best
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While I was waiting for inspiration to strike me I started on the tooling to redrill the bolt pattern from 5 on 130mm (5.118) to 5 on 5 for the dyno. Just drilled the holes to mount it on the turntable and a center hole for the hub to drop in. Will drill and tap 10mm holes 5 on 130 to mount the hub, then move to 5 on 5 resizing the holes from 10mm to .625 for the 1/2 20 press in studs I picked up for the conversion.
The math in my head says it will work... I should know one of these days soon. :-o
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While I was waiting for inspiration to strike me I started on the tooling to redrill the bolt pattern from 5 on 130mm (5.118) to 5 on 5 for the dyno. Just drilled the holes to mount it on the turntable and a center hole for the hub to drop in. Will drill and tap 10mm holes 5 on 130 to mount the hub, then move to 5 on 5 resizing the holes from 10mm to .625 for the 1/2 20 press in studs I picked up for the conversion.
The math in my head says it will work... I should know one of these days soon. :-o
Stainless;
Your re-drilling of 130mm bolt circle to 5 on 5 will definitely work. I did the same thing on my rear hubs. I used Porsche 996 rear uprights & they had the usual Porsche 130 mm pattern but I found that SCTA compliant wheels to fit that pattern were impossible to find. A little investigation showed that re-drilling the hubs and rotors to a 5" diameter pattern was feasible if you used 5/8" wheel studs. Worked like a charm and now I can use steel circle track steel wheels- cheap too!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Definitely drilling 5/8 holes.. but 1/2 inch studs.... The dyno has 4.5/4.75and 5 on 5 adapters... I am getting a 5.5 to 5 adapter to do Corey's roadster
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Ran into some spare time while waiting for welds to cool (forced by red spot on my arm) so I started setting up the mill to bore hubs. We discovered the hub did not fit well between the hold down bolts... so a counterbore and short SHCS and now it will fit.. I will continue another time....
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I started working on the Boxcar 2 shifter and of course needed the mill to make a part... so I just jumped on the hubs... the first step was to counterbore the other 2 holes and put the plate up on a series of parallels so I wouldn't drill through my rotary table and give some room to tap the 10mm holes. Rechecked the table was centered, then mounted the plate centered on it... moved out 65mm, drilled and tapped the holes. Dropped the hub on and it fit perfectly, would not rotate a thou ... must have done something right or Suzuki did :roll:
Bolted it down tight, reset the center to 2.5 inches (very convenient to have an inch/metric digital readout), removed a bolt and milled a hole down to the aluminum, reinstalled and rotated to the next bolt.
After I finished all 5 I pulled it off and stuck one of the new Ebay studs in a hole, expecting to need to press it in... well shit... it dropped in.... the studs were supposed to be .627, I purposely used one of the mills I knew was resharpened to about .623 figuring a good press. The holes measured .624 (expected... old mill)... the studs... .622 on the top of the ridges... No wonder they were so reasonable.... :|
No big deal... I mounted it on the dyno adapter, and added a couple of tacks... now they are tight.
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This is the dyno adapter... perfect fit...
Wash, rinse... repeat and now we have 2 hubs 5 on 5 with 1/2 inch studs that fit the dyno adapter
Sent Ross a note to come have a beer... he assembled the rear end... Then we had a beer. :cheers:
Next up we need to bring the bike out, pull the swingarm, install the trike swingarm, then figure out the spacers to align the sprockets, make a long chain and it is ready to go. I might have a couple of trailer tires with 5 on 5... Ross could ride it around the block.
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That looks great. You have definitely been busy. :cheers:
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Well crap, I finally get to post a reply right before the forum goes dark for only who knows how long. Don, your swingarm finally found a home on the bike. Looks like it belongs there and thank you again. Land racers are the best people. Drug the bike out to Stainless' and hung the swingarm. A few whacks with the orange wonder and a couple of spacers the chain run was aligned, good to go. Dyno day to be scheduled and the plan is to wring all we can outta race gas then move to e85 or straight methanol of there is any motor left by then. Oh, capped the day with dinner and a neoopolitan stout and then a Rye barrel aged stout. Picture the bike before.
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right side after
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left side after
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From behind after. A few things left to tidy up. gotta do something with the brake caliper, can't just leave it hanging there, add a chain guard, stuff like that.
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Ross, Glad it worked for you. :cheers:
Don
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Yep, it is starting to look dyno ready.... Then we try the same trick on one of my Hayabusa swingarms... if it works for the Sportster... :-D
:cheers:
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A few pictures from Wednesday evening work night. Broke the bike down, added the swingarm and mounted it on the dyno. Ran out of time to make any pulls but did run the bike up in 1st gear just to make sure it didn't jump out of the thing. Yes it does look a little sketchy but I think it will work. the axle is really beefy, the carrier bearings are robust. the weak link will probably be the bike and/or operator.
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Your bike is just begging for a set of wheels with tires inside of pvc pipe as in drift trike. :-o
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Pic proved it's a Harley.... only pissed a little on the floor... :roll:
I told Ross we could pull the wheels off one of the trailers and let him ride it around the block.... Axles are now 5 on 5 and spun smoothly... I was impressed this idea worked... so far :-o
:cheers:
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Looks scary! Might want a substantial chain guard.
I'm wondering how those Dynamite absorbers deal with a few hundred horsepower of heat?
Tom
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No pictures, maybe tomorrow on dyno day no. 2. Koncrete Kid, trust me the set up works, beyond robust, not scary at all. Had a few hickups, pinched the cam case vent line, pressurized the crankcase and backed up the turbo drain line. Two or three counties around Wichita will be mosquito free for awhile. But beyond that, it was fairly successful. Tomorrow hopefully will be a few full pulls to check AFR and timing and see if we can wring a bit more out of the bike from last year. Again, Don thanks for the swingarm. Oh, and I cannot thank Stainless enough for his help and expertise. More to follow.
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The absorbers are good to 1000, and have dynoed many times under 200 successfully. at From my experience with this one, you can't overheat it unless you are back to backing multiple times at high HP. The limit is well withing the capability of the bike.
I don't think the chain will grab anyone unless they stand behind it.... of course I have my fingers crossed.
We did a little shake down work this evening, found some weak spots in the bike and the trike... fixed with cotter pins and a the torque wrench
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Had a semi successful dyno day at Bob's (Stainless') this weekend. The dyno swingarm concept works. It took everything we could throw at it (granted it was with a tired old sportster but none the less). The dyno has an internal suspension heavy enough to support a full sized vehicle. The bike is pretty light weight and did not compress/load the dyno modules so we had a bit of vibration (minimal to no walking) on the modules. Also, the dyno seems to not like Harley style ignition/rpm signals. we could not get a "clean" rpm signal (was fairly jumpy/erratic) and the dyno was chasing it and never really would settle down (I defer to Bob for the correct answers). We did dial in the timing (full in at 4500-5000, when was the last time to set timing at 5k?). We ran out of race gas at about the same time to call it quits for the day. Will finish up tuning later in the week or on the weekend. Cannot thank Bob enough for his wisdom and mentorship (and the use of his shop!). More to follow.
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6-22-19 update. Spent part the day at Stainless' dyno cell. Had a few issues/hurdles but eventually got the dyno to talk to the bike's ignition (RPM) and made a couple of successful runs to dial in fuel and timing. Dyno's AFR/O2 system was off line so we used the onboard AEM failsafe gauge and determined it was suspect as well. So, being old, we went old school and just read the plugs like you should. Posted a picture of the last run, 10ish psi boost, 32 deg timing, good fuel volume and ratio. Remember this is a spare parts motor, nothing special or exotic. I am happy with 125 hp and 100 ft pounds of torque in first gear. Round three scheduled for later today, maybe play w/ fuel and timing or possible swap carbs and try e85.
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Looks good, Ross. I like how the curves are still going up at 6500. Let us know what it does on the E85.
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Pictures of the plugs, sorry I could not get a go0d shot down and in of the insulator. Little bit of Harley/two valve trivia, plugs will read lean one side and rich the other. Plug is between the valves and the intake charge flows across the plug. No joy on the e85. Seems like all the local outlets have gone dark on blending ethanol at custom percentages. Will continue looking.
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Ross are you chilling the O2 sensor with the alky fuels ?
Can you get hold of a 2 ch EGT ? one in each pipe will help during the dyno runs and also be real handy on the salt
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Sunoco sells E85 race fuel.
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Dunno if there is a Sunoco vendor locally but may reach out to the local roundy round guys to see if any of them sell/know where to buy. May pick up a gallon or two of flex fuel (did a drive by and the yellow handled pump sticker said 51-83%) and use Stainless' Quick Fuel glass tube thingie to check what percentage it really is. Have been happy with the 110 leaded race gas results so far. But the shop was a pleasant 75-80 deg. F yesterday. Bonneville in August, 100+ deg. F mid afternoon?
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The O2 sensor on the dyno died... tried several, no joy, I will call to see if I need to send the box in for testing... the readout shows no output...
The motor on the other hand is getting in the range...
I think the cooler fuels will be better in the heat. More to follow
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Stopped off at the Gas n' Sip after work to pick up a gallon or two of locally sourced E85. Yellow handle's tag said 51 to 83% ethanol. Stainless has a Quick Fuel E85 test rig and four or five tests verified almost 90% ethanol content (see below). So, I am going to go back tomorrow and fill up a jug hoping it still tests as good. We have a modified carb, a lathe and drill bits to hog out main jets and a test mule still mounted on the dyno. Have no idea if the AEM fail safe gauge will be compatible with ethanol or even register a number. Fuel pump and pressure regulator are supposed to be alcohol compliant. Next dyno day will be on corn squeeezings. Any advice or insights gladly accepted between now and Thursday or Friday.
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I think we are glad the E85 is actually Ealmost90... my guess is we might want to blend in a little race gas to hit 85... and try to hold all we use about that number.
Yes we discussed Methanol as well.... one step at a time.
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A/F sensors do not like Alcohol (for long), although there are options,,
https://www.fueltech.net/collections/sensors-valves/products/wb-o2-sensor-alcohol
Plug reading lets you know if your tune contributed to your engine failed,,
http://www.wallaceracing.com/plug-reading-lm.html
I also started with the X 2.5 jetting plan, but ended up going way bigger, with ALL jets, including drilling the carb passage the pilot jet feeds thru.
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Lots of testing was done over the years on a Triumph Bonneville using various fuels. It was done on the dyno using as scientific a procedure as possible considering the time and money available. The jetting was set to provide the richest mixture that made good power. The timing was set to make the most torque at the least advance. The fuel air curves were measured using the dyno operator's lambda sensor stuck up the tailpipe. Often there was another lambda sensor attached to a bung in the header pipe.
It was important to use multiple sensors. The header bung sensor was always problematic and comparison with the tailpipe sensor showed this. It would have been a disaster if the header sensor readings were used to adjust the fuel/air mixture in some cases.
All sorts of gasolines were compared, a heavily oxygenated ERC race gas developed for the Australian market, Sonoco Standard, Sunoco Supreme, a highly oxygenated Sunoco leaded gas, and Sunoco GT260 Plus which is used now. Some Sunoco Supreme-toluene-nitropropane mixes were also tried.
The last mixture showed no advantage on the dyno but it launched the bike to some insane speeds in actual use. This is something I cannot explain. Otherwise, none of the fuels gave any significant advantage after the mixture and timing were optimized for each one. This is something else I cannot explain. Many people see performance differences with varying fuels.
The latest version of the Dynomation computer based engine tuning program can look at the use of different fuels. One project for next winter is to model the performance using the various fuels I tested and to see if the virtual results match what we saw on the dyno. It will be a lot of work but the results should be interesting.
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Age old problem, WW. What looks good on the dyno does not always work on track. Of course, it works the other way, as well. Just too many variables a dyno can't deal with.
John
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Ross, any more updates? How much boost are you running on the dyno with the E85?
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No updates. Hope to get a few main jets drilled out today or tomorrow pending Stainless' availability. Boost has been around 11 maybe 12 psi.
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VP sells leaded E85 race fuel.
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Without reliable o2 sensors, I pulled the plug on E85 for now. First couple of partial pulls, the AFRs were waaaay too lean, to the point we lost part of one electrode. Do not know if it was burned off or just the plug. Bore scoped the cylinder/piston top and no visible damage. One problem to be solved is the S&S carbs (both of them) float bowls flooded at any pressure slightly above gravity. Purolator/facet fuel pump has good flow and apprx 5 psi pressure. Holley regulator w/ alcohol diaphragm, set to make the 1-15 psi gauge needle just move off of zero would make them overflow. Will have to google if e85 is less dense than gasoline or if the floats are compromised. In the past, the needle/seats would hold 2- psi static and 1.5ish at idle.
So, will unmount the bike from the dyno and get ready for august.
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Were you using the S&S Alky carb, 'cause this has a weir so that the float bowl overflows and returns to tank.
The SG of Ethanol/Alky is very different to Gas, and we could never get the bowl to seal.
HTH
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Carb is/was a Super E we modified for an alcohol discharge tube (great big). Experienced a bunch of what looked like reversion. Carb was spitting fuel out the front even w/ the turbo pulling air in. May have been flooding/overflowing w/ the fuel pump/needle & seat issue. But that should have taken the AFRS to rich. Dunno. Have reached out to S&S to see if there are alternative floats but don't think so. Part of the disconnect was the guy on the bike. This style of carb has three circuits, idle, off idle/mid range and main. I was not pinning the throttle each and every time. I would see AFR's go waaay lean, get scared and forget that to get to the main jet circuit the throttle needs to get open, and open faster.
But still, we found a few horses left in the barn from last year and will try to spur his old nag into at least a high lope in August. Now to find those old gut hooks from my junior rodeo days.
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Gasoline's specific gravity is about .74 and ethanol's is about .79 (more dense). So in theory your float would be riding a little higher in ethanol. Not sure how that relates, but there you are.
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Ross, we had the same flooding issue on our bike.
My solution was to put a tee in the line on pressure side of the pump and add a valved return line back to the tank.
The valve would be open reducing presure for idling and warm up and closed once underway.
The bike would sputter a bit thru the first two gears and then clean out and rip.
I believe the fuel demand of the engine at speed alleviated the flooding.
Kind of hokey but it worked for us.
Don
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This system is set for bypass now. Pump to a tee, one leg to carb the other to regulator and return to tank. I used the pump to drain the tank and put the tank return line into the fuel jug. Really good flow and pressure. We took both bowls off the carb and hooked the fuel line from the pump to check if the needle was seating. yep, pump on, at little to no back pressure from the regulator, the needle held. Just a bit more pressure and it overflowed. Press down on the float and plenty of fuel flowed into the bowl (visually). Have reached out to see if there float alternatives, but right now it will work as is. Vanity wanted to see some pressure on the 5 dollar liquid filled pressure gauge. Spares box is full to spilling.
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Yeah, our spares box is quite full too.
With my hair brain ideas about one of every three things I buy or build seems to work. :roll:
Don
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Another thing that helps is to rubber mount the carbs so they do not jiggle and to isolate them from engine heat. Either can cause mixture problems that are hard to diagnose.
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Ross, have you given any more thought to dry sumping the float bowl? No more needle & seat or float.
John
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Is there only one carb?
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And only one turbo, but there is a thought Ross... twin turbo twin carb twin... :cheers:
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Happy Fourth of July (credit to Joe Dirt). I think this is the same outfit I bought my turbo from.
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The force that closes the float valve is caused by buoyancy of the floats. Any aeration of the fuel in the float bowl due to heat or vibration reduces fuel density and lessens the upward buoyant force from the floats. Also, leaky or soaked floats have less buoyancy. It is a good idea to make sure the floats are in good shape.
Pressure is force divided by area. The upward force from the floats causes more pressure on a small diameter float valve seat due to its lesser area. Sometimes we install big valves to pass large amounts of fuel and this reduces the float seat pressure too far. The fuel pressure overcomes the forces from float buoyancy and the float valve does not cut off fuel flow.
All of this can be calculated. Fuel demand can be estimated using formulae in John Baechtel's "Performane Automotive Engine Math." The carb manufacturer can give the correct size of float valve needed and help with the rest of the calculations.
The two 45mm Mikuni flat slide carbs on my bike have enough float fuel flow capacity to feed oxygenated gas to a 120 horsepower natural aspirated 1000cc twin cylinder engine. This is a puny engine by Harley standards and both of the carbs have larger than standard float valves.
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Bo, vibration/aeration might be part of the problem as this motor is not much more then two paint shakers joined at the hip. I am using the race (6AN inlet with the larger needle). the stock needle/seat is at Stainless's so I can't get a measurement to compare to the race sized inlet/seat. The overflowing fuel has been an annoyance more than a performance issue. the facet/purolator pump is there just to assure the bowl stays full. I have confidence that gravity would supply the carb but I had the parts and used them. Aero improvements next, after I put all the nuts and bolts back on the bike that shook off during tuning.
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Mikuni makes carb kits for Harleys. They are the HSR series flat slides. Those carbs are what I use on my bike. They hake a special needle valve assembly for use with a fuel pump. It is size "2.3" (part # 007-478). The ones I use with a gravity flow system are size "4.5" (part # 007-708). Smaller valves are used with a pump so the valve will have adequate seating pressure. These carbs mount to a rubber spigot on the manifold. This provides some insulation from heat and isolation from vibration. The counterbalances are removed from the engine and it runs for miles at 8,900 rpm. There is some vibration, for sure. This does not seem to affect the mixture.
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Spent a few evening at Bob "Stainless" Steeles putting a little aero on the race bike. Yes it is barely a polished turd, but it is entered in Speed Week. I think there is a saying that goes something like pretty is pretty and fast is fast. I just hope this thing goes pretty fast, relatively smoke free. There are a few things left to button up before next week but I think we will get there, fingers crossed. Did add some shade to the trailer, 8x10 should make a few friends.
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Glad you are getting all ready to go. I've got just a few more things to do on the bike and then another shakedown run tomorrow. Then it's time to start organizing everything to load on the trailer.
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Sorry about the delay reporting an update, my bad. Speed week was good and not so good. Track was less than desirable, the SCTA did their best with what they had, 'nuff said about that and beating that dead horse doesn't do anyone any good. So, I did learn bunches from everyone I met/talked to. And what I learned was aero, something I did not have. So, let me introduce the Powers/Steele or Steele/Powers bike for 2020 and beyond. This mint '95 1200 is going to become the next dyno mule to test the limits of our Jackson swingarm dyno adapter. Best described as a 600 pound magnet drug through the chrome spare parts bin. Plan is to get this jewel started, first. Then keep it running long enough to run through the gears at least once. If it doesn't turn itself inside out by then, strip it to bare metal, add some cc's to get closer to the class size limit, EFI and turbo then wrap it in something slippery. More to follow.
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Ross, sounds like you have quite the project to keep you busy over the winter. It was great meeting you and Stainless in person. Thanks for all of the information and beer you gave me. :cheers: I definitely learned a lot as a rookie and also realized exactly what you guys meant when you said that running on the salt was different. Looking forward to seeing the progress on the new bike.
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John Trease (rip) had a misfire all week , eventually he tracked it down to carb bowl vibration, it sounded like,,,
https://youtu.be/y0ULiYk8zf0