Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: Speeditaly on March 29, 2018, 10:36:35 AM
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Hi to All,
first of all…sorry for my English. I am Italian!...Even if I write befor now, I am a big fan of landspeed/drag racing and I follow landracing.com from many years.
I write to this forum to discuss with You about my idea/concept to reach 500mph whell driven, for me the real LSR, and the Holy Graal of land racing.
In the last decade, salt conditions (not only in Bonneville…) have been always bad. Three years ago speed week was cancelled. Today a track so good as in 60s or 70s is a mirage: the situation seems not to become better….We could have the risk to postopone every high-speed attempt every year. There are a lot of good project around, like target550, turbinator2, Carbinite, Speed Damon, Burkland411: they all could hit 500mph easily if the conditions would be better, but all this teams try their goal from years with not good results.
So, if you aim to a FIA / SCTA certified record of a two way misured mile with average >500mph,my Concept could not be a good solution, but if the target is to top an exit speed higher than 500 mph in a shorter track it could be interesting. In the end….the important is to be the first man to top 500mph on wheel. Mickey Thompson didn’t make an official +400mph two way pass, but we all remember him: but we all recognize him like the first American who brake that barrier.
So, my idea is a sort of a unlimited top fuel Dragster.
The goal is to make a sort of drag race pass and top 500mph after ½ mile ca. So you can make run in many asphalt track…like Maxton/texas/ohio mile or some landing runway in airport.
The project consist in a “mega” dragster with a very powerful engine able to run only 10/15 seconds and not 1.30+ minutes like in todays high speed streamliners.
A modern TF engine could output 11000 hp with limited in % fuel, pump, supercharger, rpm and size (and only one engine).
A 100% nitro engine, maybe derived by 1000ci mountain motor without such limitations could make real big horsepower…maybe 20000+ hp.
Obviously no gear ratio limitations.
No transmission but a multy-clutch system like those in NHRA TF.
A run shorter than 1000mt minimize the size(and weight) of fuel thank and the durability of the engine is not so important.
You could have a good shut down area.
Problem 1: AERO.
Mathematically A top fuel shape car with 20k + hp, could top those kind of speed…but with wings, open wheels and open engine , I am sure that in some points air flow would increase over mach level with a big increment of drag coefficient. So even with those kind of horsepower could not reach the goal.
So its is necessary streamline the car. An interesting dragster was the Arivett brother funny car: A real streamliner dragster, with no wings but a ground effect under body to provide the downforce necessary for traction.
Could be an idea?
Problem2: Tires.
I have no idea if there is a possibility to find a tyre able to resist to this kind of performance.
Any Idea?
What is your opinion?
Thank you to all.
Mark
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I think that car's already been built -- it's called Flashpoint.
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^^So good! :-D :-D :-D
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Thanks Speeditaly for sharing your thoughts.
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I was @ Lake Gairdner 2 weeks ago and saw Target 550 , and Valerie Thompson attempt serious speed
the effort and infrastructure is huge ( especially for them to come to Australia)
the Short distance you suggest is most likely possible ( given the speed nitro dragsters get to )
but the land speed standard has always been average speed over a given distance
your suggestion gives a good topic to debate
if a top fuel dragster ran 5 seconds more ( and an engine could last that much longer ! )
and had long enough track
what top speed could it reach ??
cheers 🍻
harky
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if a top fuel dragster ran 5 seconds more ( and an engine could last that much longer ! )
and had long enough track
what top speed could it reach ??
cheers 🍻
harky
I remember seeing a few years ago, before NHRA shortened the run to 1000 feet, that dragsters hit top speed about 1000 feet down the track and couldn't go any faster. With the shorter track, the cars, I would presume, now run more downforce yet.
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I think the "no faster" was due to limits on tire size, gear ratio and RPM by NHRA.
Ron
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Ron, your 100% correct...and all these rules were required by the NHRA's lawyers.
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Hi to All, and thank you so much for your replies!
@Harky: Yes! of course!. I have specified in my post that this kind of car could not run a misured mile or kilometre for a FIA or SCTA landspeed standards.
It is the price to hit 500mph. I don't mind if i could not run 500mph as average in a given distance: my "new landspeed car" layout was born because i saw that with today conditions (no more the same as goldenrod or mickey thompson era) this performance is quite impossible. There are many beautiful car now that could top more than 500mph with ease. Let's think about Treit&Davenport: stunning project, 5000hp, fine aerodynamic.....this year could only hit 345 mph, and the car is fully complete since some years . So..firstly.....Let's top the 500 mark, even if for one second only!... exactly like top fuelers do topping 330 mph at the end of the 1000ft. Your record will not appear on the Bonneville record book, but you will be always remembered as the first man to hit 500mph.
I think that this kind of layout is simpler than a streamliner, beacuse it does not need a big fuel tank, a durable engine (so you can increase horsepower), and you can try more attempts during the year, in a lot of different places.
NHRA Hystory is full of extreme designs examples and experiments: six wheels cars, multiple engine, (Don garlits rules!) etc... A top fuel speed is limited by gear and rpm limit imposed by NHRA.
For example,Today funny car are usually faster than TF because they have a 8150 speed limiter ..top fuel 7900.
With rpm speed limiter, limited fuel pump, imposed 3,20 gear ratio,imposed weight, no downforce underbody , etc they have topped 339.87 mph! in 1000 ft......
So...Let's try to remove the speed limiter, and return to 1/4 mile...probably they would already surpass 350mph. Now, take a 2.9 gear ratio (as before the 3.20 rule) and increase the nitro % from 90 to 100%....We could assume a 357/360 mph?...In my opinion even more....Than increase engine size and lower the weight....With some aero intervention, like the mon-struct wing (now prohibited by NHRA)..i think that we have just reached the conditions to top 400mph in the quarter. NHRA Chief Crew themself told in many occasions that 400mph in the quarter is teoretically achievable...the problem is if NHRA let them run the 400....!
BUT...
If we lenghten a bit the track...maybe 1/2 mile....with the good aero (and MONEY!) ...in my opinion 500mph are possible.
What do you think? Anyone have some suggestions? Anyone have seen insurmontable issues? Maybe for the better layout: Is better a top fuel shape (less weight and less aero) or a more streamline shape (more weight, better aero forthe higher speed)....
Thank you very much.
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Mark,
Here is the first problem you must solve. Getting the car off the starting line. Slicks work extremely well because of the heavy cap. A big show car has enough power to accelerate the tire cap into the pavement. This creates down force around 10 times the weight of the car. The reason NHRA limits the car speed is because the heavy cap will come apart around 345 mph. So good luck with tire technology.
When you figure this out get back to us. I have a dozen more engineering issues that will require major funding.
POPS
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Hello Pops!
I totally agree with you. Tyre is probably the biggest issue. But I think that there are some points that could get easier to make those kind of tyre.
Biggest problem is the big amounth of downforce (10000 lbs in topFuel): it could be possible to use active aero devices, like mobile wings, or diffusers, to mantain the level of downforce constant (or even decrease) during speed increment. The short period of time of the run could be another advantage: they do not resist at over 500mph for a whole mile!....Nobody in this forum is able to build a special Tyre...I think that the only solution is that a tyre builder like goodyear /Mickey Thompson, or others "joins" the project ....The "Team" has to manage the construction of an aerodynamic (maybe active aero) mega-power dragster.
Are you agree?
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Yea Pops, movable aero devices.... could that work? :wink: :evil:
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Another idea could be a fun like chaparral 2j to create downforce. A little bit exotic solution...but maybe could be work!
Dear Friends, the intent of my post is not to realize phisically this kind of car, but try to identify a different concept of landspeedcar (able to hit the magical 500mph milestone) that, after a "benchmark" of alternative ideas different from the traditional salt lake streamliner , could have a sort of macrofeasibility.
I am an automotive Engineer, so i understand every technical debate but I work in style/body area....so I am not a specialist in Aero or Engine; I ask the help of Landracing community to help me to develop a project with solid basis. Anyone could give his help: many of you have a great experience in drag/ landspeedracing. In this phase, money is not a issue (obviously with common sense...)...Maybe after this phase of macrofeasibility someone could decide to invest some money to make the car real!...
In 60s drag racer was convinced that 150mph were an invalicable limit: Today they exceed 335mph in 1000ft, with a lot of limitations.
Let's try to be a little more visionary and try to draw an exotic layout for a 500mph Car!
Thank you so much.
Mark
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sorry FAN not fun... :-D
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Sort of like a propeller? :-D
Mike
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i intend wheel driven!
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Mark,
We have looked at suction. Would be the best approach in our opinion. Wings wont work because the air doesn't get organized until 60mph+. With or without Fowler flaps no useful
down force. Even with suction tires are an issue. Goodyear or Thompson wont make tires they cant sell for a profit. Suggest a solution to the tire issue and then we will talk about engines and drive line components.
POPS
PS: We admire Enzo Ferrari "Aero is for people who can't build engines".
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so
as a theoretical debate , it is an interesting concept
A touch the 500 mph wall event , even for a nano second would be history
to see Valerie
and target 550 here in Australia was memorable, and Valerie was not too far off making history
keeping in mind that Donald Campbell used Lake Eyre , ( near lake Gairdner— well 300 miles away ) in the 60s
and we haven’t gone —- wheel driven — much faster since then
keep theorising
harky
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as a theoretical debate
60s .... we haven’t gone —- wheel driven — much faster since
@1964 - 403mph; @2018 - 458mph - increase is a shade under 13%, quite some increase when racers used to look for 1% improvements. Both cars turboshaft and all four wheels driven.
If i have read the thread correctly the plan is to go 0-500-0 (in mph), or 0-800-0 (km/h), avoiding the use of Bonneville Salt Flats, with a wheeldriven vehicle. Is it to be assumed that the motive power can be from any power unit, as long as the engine/motor turns the wheels directly.
Is it to be a dream vehicle, or should it be feasible to build it quickly, because the timeline for someone with a current car getting to the target speed might occur within five years or so.
We have a theoretical series of base 'facts', and perhaps need these to work with reality if the car evers gets built on this earth. To get to the 'base facts' a number of questions need answers please, Mark.
Track - what length of asphalt or concrete is available - straight and level. Do we know if it could have traction compound spread along the full acceleration distance? Is it located at altitude or sea level. Where is this track?
Power unit(s) - although not being a 'lover' of all things electric should this be the power unit(s) of choice?
Acceleration - Can a push truck be used, or is the intention to drive away from rest? Do we need the drag racing g-force launch effort for the chosen length of track?
Tires - must be good for 500 without failing/bursting. (This could be from rotational speed effects or surface stresses caused by spinning up). A tyre maker may need to be part of the 'design' team?
Traction - is it conceivable that a drag racing rear tyre might be constructed to give the required traction over the full acceleration phase (and the distance that involves)? If drive is required to four or more of the wheels/tyres, then the body design will need to take that into account. Enhanced downforce, say from stationary (at rest), would require a dynamic 'fan' system or similar but will this need to be controlled throughout every part of the acceleration phase. The drive motor then needs to be controllable, but perhaps not by the driver.
Measurement of speed - I take it that the rules that those on this list abide-by for timing are to be thrown away and an on board speed GPS measurement system will be used. No fixed position timing beams of any distance interval to be used.
Of course the dozen or so wheeldriven cars already constructed, or are now being constructed, around the world could get to the goal next year if everything goes well in Bolivia or Australia.
Two pence worth from the UK.
Hoping folk are having a good holiday time.
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Hi to All….and thanks so much for your help!
@POPS….I know very well the words of Enzo Ferrari…but I think that aero the work of Colin Chapman is good too! 😉
@Malcom UK.
Malcom…very interesting points. First of all thank you. I will try to give an explanation to your request!
“Is it to be a dream vehicle, or should it be feasible to build it quickly, because the timeline for someone with a current car getting to the target speed might occur within five years or so.”
→ The complexity and ambition of the project make it a “dream vehicle”, but this thread aims to define a Concept with a concrete feasibility….maybe with a 5 or 10+ years of work (es: treit & davemport, carbinite or bloodhound…) …but with what technology allows us.
“Track - what length of asphalt or concrete is available - straight and level. Do we know if it could have traction compound spread along the full acceleration distance? Is it located at altitude or sea level. Where is this track?”
→My idea is to run in track that are used for standing mile: Texas mile, Mojave, ohio mile…I have said that the ½ run could be a distance that in the same time could permit the acceleration to 500mph, a good shut down area, and the engine stay full throttle only fiew seconds. But it is just indicative (sorry…I don’t know if it is correct in English language)…the correct length request for the run could be a little higher or even shorter!
“Power unit(s) - although not being a 'lover' of all things electric should this be the power unit(s) of choice? “
→I am not a lover of electric powertrain too :-D …but the goal is to hit 500mph…all wheeldriven powertrain could be used. ( i give you a link: https://insideevs.com/electric-dragster-boasts-1000-volts-5000-hp-17000-pound-feet-of-torque/ - In fact, There is an Australian team that is building a sort of EV-top fuel that could hit 387mph or mach 0.5)
“Acceleration - Can a push truck be used, or is the intention to drive away from rest? Do we need the drag racing g-force launch effort for the chosen length of track?”
→We are not make a NHRA run…there are no FIA/SCTA/NHRA regulations …everything is permitted.
“Tires - must be good for 500 without failing/bursting. (This could be from rotational speed effects or surface stresses caused by spinning up). A tyre maker may need to be part of the 'design' team?”…
→OF COURSE!...I have written in my posts that if a tyre maker could be a part of the team should be fantastic…..without a tyre maker able to develop a specific tyre for this performance, the only idea that I have, is to coupled mickey Thompson tyre……. :roll:
“Traction - is it conceivable that a drag racing rear tyre might be constructed to give the required traction over the full acceleration phase (and the distance that involves)? If drive is required to four or more of the wheels/tyres, then the body design will need to take that into account. Enhanced downforce, say from stationary (at rest), would require a dynamic 'fan' system or similar but will this need to be controlled throughout every part of the acceleration phase. The drive motor then needs to be controllable, but perhaps not by the driver”
→I think that the correct calibration/control of active aero or Fan devices is one of the most difficult parts of this kind of project….I agree that the drive motor could not necessary controllable by the driver.
“Measurement of speed - I take it that the rules that those on this list abide-by for timing are to be thrown away and an on board speed GPS measurement system will be used. No fixed position timing beams of any distance interval to be used”
→Ok!
I hope that I help you to clarify my intent….Sorry for my bad English.
I am available for every question!
Thank you
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Frontal area would be a concern considering the massive testicles required to operate such a craft............... :evil:
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got that covered...
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500 MPH cars, running in the proper manner, do exist already. They need the right place to run them. And a Spanish
speaking crew member.
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Considering that Speed Demon goes 90% of 500 mph with these handy caps .Only 25% of its peak down force at 225 mph . Power limited in high gear . Only about 65% of its weight on its driven wheels . With waste gate traction control , 4 wheel drive and a suction fan for lower speed down force 500 doesn't sound unreasonable .
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Hi John and Rich,
I know very well that many car are able to hit 500mph easily. Every time they made a good run we say” IF…the condition was a bit better…IF one day we will have a good salt…” but..How many attemps have they already done? Home many attempts , year after year speed Damon or Target550 or Vesco will must make waiting for a good salt? I hope with all my hearth that soon one of those teams will do THE RUN….I am waiting this moment too.
But during this waiting I am trying to find another way….a way that does not bind any attempt ( only one or two attempt a year!) to the salt lake.
A sunction fan in the speed Damon could be a good idea…but actual aero would be totally destroyed. I should be redesign the exteriors to make the fan working and make more horsepower for the increased Cx…but It could be a very interesting solution.
Thank you.
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Why do you want to circumvent existing rules just to reach a number? One of the attempts working at getting there now WILL succeed.
If landspeed racing was easy everyone would hold a record and there would be little value in holding one.
Pete
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Mmmm…Peter. I respect your opinion, but I don’t think that i am out of the rules. I am out of the FIA rules, but a performance is a performance. It is not only a number. Even if you maintain 500mph for 1000 km is just a number. The request of speed came from passion…not for a concrete usefulness. Personally, if we speak about LSR I think that a jet/rocket car is more “circumventing existing rules …” Every time that someone try something different easily will came a division of opinions: when craig breedlove or arfons started with jet cars, someone liked those kind of vehicle, others not consider real LAND speed cars but only plane that flew along the ground….
This is only my personal opinion!
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I'm more referring to your instantaneous reading of 500 mph rather than averaging the speed over a specified distance, normally mph or kph. The instantaneous speed reading removes much of the challenge.
Pete
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In 1992 Kenny Bernstein run first 300mph in NHRA history. It was an istantaneous speed but he will remain the first 300 mph mark in a race competition for ever and a great milestone in motorsport history.
I totally agree with you that average speed has a greater charm...but i consider that, the price to pay to reach the mithycal 500mph mark... :-)
Mark
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I think this forum is about Land Speed Racing. Which is recognized as average speed over a measured mile or Kilometer. The Budweiser rocket car may of may not have run the speed of sound. But he never claimed nor was it ever recognized as a Land Speed record. It was a stunt and is remembered as such. I think Project 550, Turbinator, Flashpoint, Burklands, maybe Nish and others have the potential of a real 500 mph record. Without any actual experience to draw from, it looks to me that Bolivia would be an excellent place to try it. It seems a little hard for people to wrap their heads around Bolivia as opposed to Australia. But that will come in time. Either one requires a great expense commitment. Crew time is very hard to come by even if you have the money to transport the car. Some of these guys here in the valley have so much money to burn. How do we get some?
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I'm more referring to your instantaneous reading of 500 mph rather than averaging the speed over a specified distance, normally mph or kph. The instantaneous speed reading removes much of the challenge.
Pete
Ooh, this sounds a lot like the battle between The Blue Flame and The Budweiser Rocket. I will let Dick Keller fill in the blanks.
John
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Yes Pete...butt WHEEL DRIVEN!
@RichFox: landspeed for me is speed on land...even my road car is land speed. I posted this thread in the general chart..and only to ask the help of people like you that have big experience in this area..so i don t think that is out of the spirit of this community. ... :wink: :cheers:
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the land speed record (or absolute land speed record) is the highest speed achieved by a person using a vehicle on land. There is no single body for validation and regulation; in practice the Category C ("Special Vehicles") flying start regulations are used, officiated by regional or national organizations under the auspices of the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile.[1] The land speed record (LSR) is standardized as the speed over a course of fixed length, averaged over two runs (commonly called "passes").[2] Two runs are required in opposite directions within one hour, and a new record mark must exceed the previous one by at least one percent to be validated. .....................................................i GOOGLED IT.
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Ok. I agree....Bugatti veyron has guinness world record for fastest production car 431 km/h. It TOUCHED 434 km/h in one direction and 429 in the other way.
It had not averaged two way 1 mile pass. But It is consider the fastest. Ok. I don't want the Land speed record ...but only to build the absolute fastest car. :-)....In the remote case in witch this car will may ever be build and hit 500 mph mark for first time in history...someone will consider it a big record ...other people will not consider this achievement. STOP.
My post is not about the definition of land speed record.
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Yes Pete...butt WHEEL DRIVEN!
@RichFox: landspeed for me is speed on land...even my road car is land speed. I posted this thread in the general chart..and only to ask the help of people like you that have big experience in this area..so i don t think that is out of the spirit of this community. ... :wink: :cheers:
Where did I infer something other than wheel driven??? :? :? :?
All you're trying to do is make the effort easier. I don't think it should be. If it becomes easier it loses its value.
Pete
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Speeditaly, bench racing is fun but you need to use better comparisons. The Bugatti (which costs a million dollars+) may have run 434 km, but that is only 269 mph and barely half way to 500 mph. There are lots of $50,000 to $75,000 race cars that will run at least that fast. Building the horsepower to get to 500 will be simple, assuming you have enough money to call Kenny Dutweiler or Reher-Morrison. Then all you need is a good chassis, a crew who can handle every detail under terrible conditions, an experienced driver, lots of dyno time, wind tunnel time, testing, and a perfect course. How much simpler can it get?
You can be assured that all of the cars that run 350 to 400+ mph have done the calculations to see how much horsepower is needed for a certain speed, but even if they had the power, the course, tires, and conditions require lots of planets and stars to align perfectly.
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Hi Edlnr,
your words are correct. Volkswagen has spent million of dollars to build Veyron: 434 kph with those kind of constraints is a big achievement.
Big goals need big efforts. It is not possible make a 500mph car with little budgets….My intent is not to build a low budget hot rod. Make a 500mph prototype is totally different than build a 200mph modified –production car….In my head, this sort of car could be developed by a crew like treit & davemport, carbinite or bloodhound. They are not mega budget car-makers (like Volkswagen…or even JCB with dieselmax) but structured teams with very experienced crew and quite big sponsor….I think that a crew like that could have the right characteristics to build a car like my proposal….until someone of this forum show me some impassable issue.
Mark
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The goal is to make a sort of drag race pass and top 500mph after ½ mile ca. So you can make run in many asphalt track…like Maxton/texas/ohio mile or some landing runway in airport.
These runways are not surfaces like an NHRA drag strip. They are more irregular than those used for the currently popular so-called "no prep" drag racing. The popularity of no-prep races is largely the result of the increased incidence of crashes. You are proposing something crazy dangerous. Do you want to drive?
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Hi tortoise...i am not able to drive this car: a professional driver should drive.
The irregular surface s condition of those track could represent a safety issue..maybe in a landing strip could be safer. I m shuttle that around the world is easy to find a good one mile strip...
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Butt in the end...with a suction fan i don t believe tha my proposal is more dangerous than project like bloodhound ore even sir malcom campbell...even in Texas mile, mojave or similar tracks.
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My opinion: The human driver can't do it. (If my simple math is correct) John Stapp accelerated to right above 500 mph at the 2640' mark on his way to 632 mph at 3100' ... and the acceleration G-Forces were astronomically high (black out time), when the sled braked is almost killed him (at -40Gs)
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My opinion: The human driver can't do it. (If my simple math is correct) John Stapp accelerated to right above 500 mph at the 2640' mark on his way to 632 mph at 3100' ... and the acceleration G-Forces were astronomically high (black out time), when the sled braked is almost killed him (at -40Gs)
NHRA.....Top fuel 332 + mph. Elapsed time 3.68 sec. Both times in 1000 ft :-o
JL222
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John Stapp -40g was from 600mph+ to 0. ...about acceleration remember that Kitty O'Neil made 3.22 quarter mile @422mph, with a rocket dragster. I belive that 500mph in 1/2mile is possible in term of G-force.
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Has any wheel driven car been 300mph on pavement outside of a prepared drag strip? In my opinion, the powertrain, aero, packaging, and tires currently exist to make this possible with a dedicated effort; yet I have not seen any pavement oriented streamliners built to date.
IMO it would be possible to build such a streamliner for about the price of an NHRA promod. Why hasn't it been done? What are the limitations that I'm missing?
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Has any wheel driven car been 300mph on pavement outside of a prepared drag strip? In my opinion, the powertrain, aero, packaging, and tires currently exist to make this possible with a dedicated effort; yet I have not seen any pavement oriented streamliners built to date.
IMO it would be possible to build such a streamliner for about the price of an NHRA promod. Why hasn't it been done? What are the limitations that I'm missing?
Not much bragging rights for going the same speed as a top fuel car, but using a longer distance.
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To (mis)quote Mel Brooks' "Blazing Saddles" –
"Oh, Lord, do we have the strength to carry off this mighty task – or are we just jerking off?"