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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Lemming Motors on January 11, 2018, 06:43:42 AM

Title: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 11, 2018, 06:43:42 AM
I got my first rule book in 2015 and attended my first Speed Week in 2017 so this has been a long time coming; don't hold your breath for updates - lets hope it will be quicker on the salt than getting to the salt.

The roll structure is in mock-up. I might have missed the section in the rule book about materials - waste pipe and duct tape okay?

I am constantly tweaking this but it proved invaluable for exit practice (changes made) - I can place my hands on the top rail and support my large frame during those manoeuvres if you are thinking about mock up materials.  More changes will follow - I am not sure about the roll hoops doubling back (to keep frontal tight) as the load is somewhat in sheer on the top rail though I have seen plenty like this.

I am also worried about where to place the cup holder.

John

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 11, 2018, 08:35:39 AM
It might make sense to build everything that goes in the body first, install it in the mockup, adjust the temporary frame as needed, and then make the frame as the last thing.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 11, 2018, 09:31:13 AM
You are spot on - I had separately mocked up my gearshift as I was worried about using an inline car box several feet behind my bum - the lever doesn't fall to hand. After getting a successful cable operation with bell cranks and levers, resting the motor and box behind this mock-up I realised I could not accommodate that v.1 shifter (Toyota MRII is brilliant if you have the room). The v.2 shifter is still on the drawing board - column shift was considered.

The clutch pedal assembly (new part) was dropped in to check that the leg position would allow full throw. The photocopy instruments were a vanity but on gluing them to the dash (subsequently modified to get in and out) they had me think about sight lines through the steering wheel (which is itself plywood and pipe insulation).

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: SPARKY on January 11, 2018, 10:22:27 AM
Keep the sight line in mind---seems like the eyeballs just keep being shoved down for some reason  the other thing I would suggest keep in mind the bottom of the visor---had to buy another helmet so that we could get the bottom of the helmet chin down against our chest to see over the top of the bottom of the visor opening.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 11, 2018, 11:16:54 AM
You need to be able to get in & out of there with all your crap on & it looks like it would be tough to do with that close steering cross tube. If you don't have a fire suit handy, put a heap of clothing on & a brain bucket then see how that works.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 11, 2018, 11:26:16 AM
Sid, is your moniker related to your country of origin? I grew up in Gisborne.

I was looking at fire suits to test 'fit' and checked the rule book SFI rating requirements then realised it's the 'real' ones - 5 layer and all that. I think I can afford the build but not the suit. Someone mentioned how the suit raises and pushes you forward and now I think I understand the concern. Guess they are not so 'flexible' either.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: RidgeRunner on January 11, 2018, 12:32:55 PM
     Different brands can and do use different fabrics and materials to make suits and related gear to meet the specs for various time protection levels required as minimums for different classes and speeds run.   Overall flexibility and outside dimensions can and do vary substantially between brands.

     We started mocking up with a 40 yr old M/C helmet and heavy insulated winter coveralls then found out it was only a start...........

                Ed
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Ron Gibson on January 11, 2018, 01:05:47 PM
The heavy winter coveralls probably be OK for the suit. I don't know about the helmet, probably not.

Ron
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: NathanStewart on January 11, 2018, 02:46:51 PM
FWIW, I'm not a big fan of cage bars that have swoopy bends in them to join the shoulder bar.  Straight is stronger and tubing with bends in it tends to bend again more easily when stressed.  Can you re-do your cage (just what's around the driver's head) with straight shots of tube and not bends or does that disrupt your aero package too much?  One benefit of going with straight legged cage hoops is that you'll space the cage out away from you some.  Then you can use appropriate padding to buffer the driver's helmeted head.

Just my $.02... is there a British equivalent for that?  Not sure what the exchange rate is nowadays.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Skip Pipes on January 11, 2018, 08:56:04 PM
Hi John,

Great mockup. Sid (Kiwi) and Sumner are absolutely correct; don’t build the cockpit so tight you have trouble exiting. Nathan drives my Roadster and he has to twist sideways to get the Hans out from under the cage. (And it’s a generous cage). We’re in the beginning stages of a new new Lakester build so were avid fans.

Skip Pipes
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 12, 2018, 03:31:17 AM
Just my $.02... is there a British equivalent for that?  Not sure what the exchange rate is nowadays.

1.5 pence doesn't roll off the tongue the same way (and doesn't buy as much either).

I have reposted the side-on pic with the fleshy bits installed. I will hold off on changes until I have found an SFI 3.2A/15 suit. Not much choice here in the UK by the look of it and no US business trips planned in the near future.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on January 12, 2018, 07:07:52 AM
John, might I suggest a -20 suit? Bonneville is rather large and you might not end up parked next to a fire truck in case of an incident.  :wink:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Sumner on January 12, 2018, 07:49:37 AM
I forgot one thing that I was going to mention the other day to think about.  I'd probably want to ...

(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17014.0;attach=58400;image)

... add bracing to the tube that drops down at the step and then goes towards the back of the car.

(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/John%20Lakester-2.jpg)

Above is one possible solution.  I think it also adds more strength to the cage area above the drivers head.  Just a thought,

Sumner

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stan Back on January 12, 2018, 10:48:22 AM
I'll second Wayno's suggestion -- a -20 is not substantially more than a -15 and offers longer protection.  Never wrong to exceed the minimums.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on January 12, 2018, 02:20:53 PM
John:

I like how your lakester is progressing. It should prove very fast once on the salt.

Driving position looks comfortable but egress may prove difficult when trying to get your feet in a position to push out of the cockpit. Since your legs and feet are substantially elivated, it looks like you will have to do a sit-up while pushing back against the seat thereby clearing your helmet from the roll bar and knees from the steering wheel hoop. Looks like a task for a young, slim, physically fit driver. I am the exact opposite and getting worse with age.

BTW, did you say what engine you will be using?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 12, 2018, 07:23:06 PM
Sid, is your moniker related to your country of origin? I grew up in Gisborne.

I was looking at fire suits to test 'fit' and checked the rule book SFI rating requirements then realised it's the 'real' ones - 5 layer and all that. I think I can afford the build but not the suit. Someone mentioned how the suit raises and pushes you forward and now I think I understand the concern. Guess they are not so 'flexible' either.

John
Yeah Mate, I grew up in the Palmy area.
You don't have to buy a new fire suit for SCTA, it just has to be in good condition with correct tags so keep an eye on the forum. An SFI-20 will give you better protection plus you might get a chance at driving somebody else's fast junk one day. Meantime just pile on some clothing to simulate it & remember there's also a head & neck support now too.
It looks like you've been influenced by formula cars with the raised leg thing, that in it's self is going to hinder getting out of there. You need to slide ya butt forward to get out from under the cage before you can come up.
I'm with Nathan on the cage tubes rolling out to the rail too. Both strength & easier build em straight plus that allows you to then add helmet supports inside that to set the 2" max distance. You might want to move that steering cross tube forward too.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on January 12, 2018, 07:36:06 PM
John
 One thing I learned when building my race car that started as a lakester and I latter converted to rear engine roadster was that getting into the car was easy gravity is your friend. However getting out was a really problem. As others have suggested until you are completely suited up with the 15 or 20 suit the hauns device and the current SFI helmet the difficulty on getting out of the car will not be certain.  Also adding to the fun is how difficult exiting is when you have the steering wheel in there as well as the seat belts required.  Another thought is as we age we may get a little shorter but most of us have also gotten at times much wider lots to think about but worth the thought process so you can be safe have fun and then go fast.
   Ronnieroadster
  
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 12, 2018, 11:05:08 PM
My build started in 2006 when I was a limber 53 years old.  The next run at b'ville will be when I am 65.  Some youthful flexibility is lost.  This is real apparent when I try to fold up into a small shape.  Look at the top of the roll cage and give yourself some extra clearance if you plan to race for a long time.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: SPARKY on January 13, 2018, 06:57:55 AM
  I am now dealing with a 75 year old body---wise words WW  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 14, 2018, 12:04:31 PM
Thanks everyone for the comments and insights.

At this stage I can get in and out very easily. I race canoe (marathon sit and switch) and we do a lot of fast portaging; that means that at a 'middle aged' 57 I have a good core (inside some beer insulation) and can lift my self up on the top rails (like parallel bars / gymnast). I hear you regarding the aging process though.

I had a wee play with the tubes as discussed by others and propose the following for your review. Are there too many tubes in the side elevation? Can you have too many?

I must admit standing on the start line and hearing that Bockscar had rolled gave me a real shock (so I am very amenable to safety upgrades), then heard the driver was okay and was relieved, then quite pleased (sorry) that it might not be upping those records and perhaps give some mortals a chance, then disappointed to hear Stainless is rebuilding but I am following the diary closely and with huge respect.

I have taken the top hoop (right hand as viewed) straight down as discussed. It sacrifices some frontal area so probably costs a mile an hour or three.

Quite a lot of duct tape used in this revision but no ferrous metals have been harmed so far.

Oh, and in answer to an earlier question: S2000 engine and g'box.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: fordboy628 on January 14, 2018, 12:28:34 PM
Ford S2000 engine?

Iron or alloy head?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 14, 2018, 12:33:22 PM
My bad. Honda S2000.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: fordboy628 on January 14, 2018, 12:45:04 PM
My bad. Honda S2000.

Ahh, makes more sense now.

F20C I presume.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 14, 2018, 01:26:37 PM
Nice job on the cage redesign! I especially like the addition of some diagonals to support the rear roll  loop, much better load paths. I don't believe that you can have to much in the way of bracing and diagonals so great job. I am looking forward to your actually build as to see if you continue your tube joint design, which is to have all of the tube center lines at joint cross at a common point. That is the strongest and stiffest design. Check out some off road truck builds and look at their tube joints, that is how it is done.

Great job!

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Dr Goggles on January 14, 2018, 02:46:31 PM
Make sure you factor in helmet padding and cheek bars, there are maximum distances allowed on clearance, but don't make it so tight you can't keep your helmet off it. If you've never experienced head shake you're in for a rude shock the first time you drive it. It isn't just vibration, it stops your eyes working completely, like getting a scuba mask full of muddy water.

When we installed our second version of the cheek bars (when they were mandated) I drew a line down from them to where your coccyx would be and set them on that line. I did that because if they are on a vertical plane and the helmets hits them it will give your neck a work-over not unlike the big knot on a noose does. You want the helmet to strike in a way that your spine stays straight.

Also in your cage design consider how they might cut the front of it off if you need to be extracted from it in the event of an upset, around the front of the cage is a good place.

I'm in the keep the floor flat so you can slide school but like some other schools I went to I might be kicked out of it, I'm watching your build with interest.

I see you're hoping to take it to Wendover....bring it here, it's an unforgettable experience and we throw in free cricket lessons. :wink:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 14, 2018, 10:41:40 PM
Thanks everyone for the comments and insights.

I must admit standing on the start line and hearing that Bockscar had rolled gave me a real shock (so I am very amenable to safety upgrades), then heard the driver was okay and was relieved, then quite pleased (sorry) that it might not be upping those records and perhaps give some mortals a chance, then disappointed to hear Stainless is rebuilding but I am following the diary closely and with huge respect.

I was driving the Bockscar and it gave me more than just a shock. All the safety equipment worked well, even though the right cheek of the helmet cracked. I had no neck, head or back problems. We hope that the new car will be better and faster. Good luck on your build. Stainless and I helped John Goodman get his car ready to get some records. We look forward to competing with your car.

John

 
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on January 15, 2018, 12:14:40 AM
Lemming John, don't feel bad that you felt relieved... and disappointed... we have all had mixed emotions over racing.  If it is any consolation, we have been collecting and planning the Bockscar rebuild for several years.... Johnboy's wreck just forced our hand a bit.
If you have been reading for a while, you probably know that WoS was going to be a 2 liter lakester shootout... at least between John Goodman and me.  I was going to run on his record and he was running on mine.  We discussed those records and both knew those records were a bit low and wanted to get them up to the numbers we thought we should do.  The wreck ruined that bit of fun, so we went on without the Bockscar and raced John's Kansas Twister.  To me, that is Bonneville... it is about going out and racing, seeing old friends, making new friends.
I have written this multiple times, there are no records that are out of reach, mere mortals set every record that is in the book... and sooner or later they will all be broken, just like they were broken when the were set the last time.
As Johnboy said we welcome the competition and look forward to seeing you at the salt.   I wish you would have come by, introduced yourself and told us about your lakester plan... we will do that the next time....
When you get the car ready, and get it over here, let me know if there is anything we can do to help.  If you are shorthanded, we can help find or provide bodies you need.
Your mock up is very impressive, looks like it should be strong and safe... just be sure you can easily enter and exit... it does not have to be comfortable... you are only in it for a short time. 
See ya on the salt   8-)
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 15, 2018, 03:03:23 AM
Dr Goggles; the cricket jibe went straight over my head; I'm a kiwi (just happen to live in the UK). And it looks like the Pom's have got some one day players - they just cant keep it going for a proper match.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 15, 2018, 03:15:10 AM
John, Stainless

I was on the start line for the last run of Bockscar 1.0. I definitely would have visited earlier had I known - we spent a lot of time combing the pits but for such a recordy car (don't think that's a word) I missed your pits and only recognised it on the start line; oh crap - that's Bockscar - need to go check it out, incident, okay, now might not be a good time.

So you noticed the G/GL Bonneville number was 'relatively' low? I was hoping I was the only one who had spotted that.  :-D

I'm a couple of years out and actively negotiating with the steering committee regarding diverting funds - I think Tracey could be talked into a holiday in 2019, around August, California somewhere, and, er, I'll just nip off to Wendover for a week - I want to 'experience' tech, lurk around the licensing runs and be better informed. By the time I ship Squeeze over the G/GL record will be 220 and change and I'll settle for 200mph in a car I built myself, maybe.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Dr Goggles on January 15, 2018, 04:57:56 AM
By the time I ship Squeeze over the G/GL record will be 220 and change and I'll settle for 200mph in a car I built myself, maybe.

That old chestnut.....

Dr Goggles; the cricket jibe went straight over my head; I'm a kiwi (just happen to live in the UK). And it looks like the Pom's have got some one day players - they just cant keep it going for a proper match.

Ah, another Kiwi, you guys punch way above your weight on cars....you don't know Mark Love and Dave Rosewarne by any chance?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 15, 2018, 06:45:45 AM
Haven't done any punching yet - I hope I can live up to the other K one W one's. (KIWI's). I don't know the named individuals.

This build has 3 distinct but related time phases: 1. the excuses 2. the build 3. growing appendages of suitable size to drive at ca. 200mph.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 15, 2018, 07:13:59 AM
Front end discussion time. I know there is a parallel Lakester front end thread but I'd like to propose my thoughts here.

Working my frontal area from my engine choice: the only body (fuselage) area I could save is perhaps in a future iteration going to dry sump. For now though the body shape will more or less mimic the engine outline. That gave me some depth and I realised in early sketches that I could find some space under my legs (reference LeMans and F1 driving position). It is extremely comfortable and I can (so far) egress with helmet and extra clothing layers but will not harm any steel until I have done this with driving suit etc. so its time to move on and finalise other debatable things.

To business: the original (Ford) solid axle was located by the buggy spring at the front and a trailing wishbone at the rear that terminated in a large ball joint somewhere below the gearbox-ish.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0810rc-old-ford-wishbones/#0810rc_04_z-wish_list-model_a_wishbone

If my research is correct then early hot rods dropped the wishbone because the 'look' meant the wishbone clashed with the engine and gearbox new lowered position. So they split the wishbone and had two more or less parallel training arms but retained the axle attachment. This meant there is a torsional moment on the axle in single wheel bump. To sex things up they went to hairpin trailing arms but still had torsional moments. Someone changed this to 4 bars and I assume this eliminates the torsion on the axle (I always thought 4 bars were to control castor but perhaps that is a coincidental benefit).

If my front suspension components (on a straight axle) are mounted inboard what, if any, advantage do 4 bars have over said wishbone? My axle will then pivot (single wheel bump) between the sliding bush at the front (previously discussed) and the ball joint of the wishbone. I don't see that the wishbone needs to be all that long as the axle attachment ends of the wishbone will be quite close together. On that basis there is no torsional load on the axle(?).

Does anyone have a feel for single wheel bump - should I be containing an inch and half (more, or less)? I also feel that the shocks need to be geared (bell cranks, pushrods, levers) as mounting them to the axle a few inches apart in the centre would only be 1/2" - 3/4" travel and to my mind that's pretty much running without a shock - I would think 1.1/2" to 2" of shock travel would be desirable(?).
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Interested Observer on January 15, 2018, 07:28:14 AM
Back to the chassis for a moment..
An area you might want to consider is the longitudinal tube above the steering wheel.  It is not clear what sort of structure might be in front of the front bulkhead, but assuming that would be mostly bodywork, in any sort of frontal impact you probably don’t want that tube coming at you.  Triangulating that would stiffen it considerably, especially since the tube is only held by the curved bars which would bend at their bases rather easily.
Another thing would be to run a direct cross-member across in the cowl/instrument panel area to help keep the two sides of the upper chassis rails from ballooning out sideways.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Interested Observer on January 15, 2018, 08:18:55 AM
It is a matter of degree, but adding up clearances, compliances, and geometry, a short narrow based wishbone would accentuate the possibility of the front axle steering itself as a whole.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on January 15, 2018, 09:17:43 AM
"I also feel that the shocks need to be geared (bell cranks, pushrods, levers) as mounting them to the axle a few inches apart in the centre would only be 1/2" - 3/4" travel and to my mind that's pretty much running without a shock - I would think 1.1/2" to 2" of shock travel would be desirable(?)."

LM, I am at this point now with my front suspension. I tried mounting front dampers in a 1:1 position and that restricts damper travel when you are shooting for a maximum .500" of total bump. I have 1:2 bell cranks left over from an old FC car and will be looking for a way of grafting them into the car. Good fortune with your new lakester. I will add my comments to those of Stainless and welcome you to G/GL and G/FL. I can't think of anything better than having three or more cars duking it out for top honors.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 15, 2018, 01:44:54 PM
John,
As I discussed in an earlier post, might have been on Skip's thread regarding front suspension, if you run wish bones, split radius rods, or 4 bar all of them try to twist the axle on a one wheel vertical displacement. If you happen to look at midget or sprint car front locating set ups you will see that they run parallel rods on one side, usually the left, of the axle and a single locating rod on the other. This arrangement eliminates the attempted twisting of the axle on one wheel vertical displacement situations, i.e. bumps. One of the challenges for this type of setup if you are mounting the steering rack to the axle, is that the steering link can be in the way of the single locating rod. This can be over come with some inventive design. I agree with your desire to have 1.5-2 inches of travel and as ggl205 (the other John) said having the shocks/springs located close to the center line does reduce shock travel in the one wheel travel situation, but not in the total front travel, both wheels.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 17, 2018, 04:12:51 AM
IO - thank you for the comments especially re the top longitudinal (over the legs) - I had overlooked that. In principle this is where my shocks will mount (longitudinally) so I will tie bracing in with the needs of the shock mounts.

All: many thanks for your comments and advice so far. As commented by a number of people egress is best assessed suited and booted. Ideally I will get the suit from the US (they're charging £ for $ here) so may be a wee delay until I can arrange a trip or a mule.

Question: pros and cons of a one piece vs. a two piece SFI 20 suit? At this stage I am looking at Impact and Simpson - is another brand more applicable (mobility, weight etc.)?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: NathanStewart on January 18, 2018, 04:54:46 PM
Any rough sketches of the overall body design?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 19, 2018, 03:24:43 AM
No sketches I'm afraid. The ply formers were scaled up to roughly determine the nose shape and the cross section at the widest point (firewall). These shapes in turn came from scale model plans for a P38 Lightning, which, after all, is where the belly tank came from.

For nostalgic reasons I would like the nose section to allude to the P38 (without the guns) but for practical reasons the windscreen and cockpit will have to be more flared. I'd love to do a flat screen and then from there to the back of the cage in curved Lexan so it really looks like a cockpit but I suspect a drag car style screen is more efficient. I am hoping the rear can taper like the booms on the P38 and unless there is a strong aero reason not to (that's a question) a tail fin that could be mistaken for P38 at a distance. Form will have to follow function though.

Painted in invasion colours (silver fuselage with white and black stripes) so probably not enough contrast for Bonneville - I guess yellow or red wheel discs alluding to prop spinners should fix that.

In plan it should look like a trout as the widest point starts around my knees and continues till just before the diff then gently tapers to the rear.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 19, 2018, 12:42:35 PM
John, I happen to have an original Lockheed blue print of the P-38 , titled " Three View Model Plans for Lockheed Interceptor" dated around 1936-7. I will take a couple of pics and put them on the thread. Nice drawings of the plan, side and frontal views of the P-38 even before it was designated P-38.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 19, 2018, 03:25:39 PM
Rex
I’d be happy to send my address and cover the postage :-), save you the inconvenience of scanning.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 19, 2018, 05:34:05 PM
First let me see if my local blue printing co can do a drawing that is this large, 34" x 54". Or I can take a photo. Let me check.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 19, 2018, 08:51:22 PM
As per your earlier post about slipping of to B'ville while on vacation...  My wife Rose went with me last year.  It seemed like an idea that would not work beforehand.  She did the full thing, like getting up at 4:30 and being out on the salt at sunrise with the racers, listening to the pre-race briefing, drinking funky coffee from the truck stop, etc.  Even more bizarre was that she liked the goofy places we stay at on the trip there and back, like the Malheur Field Station, the campground at Angel Creek, and others.  It is quite an adventure to race on the salt flats and the ladies like it, too.  Tracey might have a good time.

   
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Dr Goggles on January 19, 2018, 09:09:51 PM

Question: pros and cons of a one piece vs. a two piece SFI 20 suit? At this stage I am looking at Impact and Simpson - is another brand more applicable (mobility, weight etc.)?

With a two piece you can take your jacket off when it's hot. Personally Id prefer a one piece.

Having said that I had a disappointing experience with Simpson lately, they stopped calling as soon as they realised I wasn't in the US. I went with HMS  in NC and got a Schroth harness, certified on the day it was shipped and happily sent to an intermediary in the US no B/S. It was a recommendation from Andy Welker, his suggestions are pretty much gospel.....
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on January 19, 2018, 09:38:10 PM
My choice is the two piece suit its easier to get into and after a run much easier to cool off. Also consider the SFI 15 suit your rear engine so the 15 suit would be legal this adds to the benefit since the 20 suit is much heavier making exiting the car a bit more difficult.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: SPARKY on January 19, 2018, 10:36:08 PM
WW  I was able to hook my child bride of 35 years on the joy of watching the world WAKE up  when I go pick up the paper in the morning I check for clouds in the predawn sksy---if there are some i give her a sunrise alert


OHh----the greatest sunrises I have ever experienced are at the salt flats---going out to impound---imagine that!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Sumner on January 20, 2018, 08:33:55 AM
My choice is the two piece suit its easier to get into and after a run much easier to cool off. Also consider the SFI 15 suit your rear engine so the 15 suit would be legal this adds to the benefit since the 20 suit is much heavier making exiting the car a bit more difficult.
 Ronnieroadster

I've often wondered about the front engine/rear engine deal as some times a rear engine car becomes a car with the engine in front during moments when you would need the suit the most.

I went with and would still go with the 20 as you might not know what you might get the chance to drive in the future and as has been mentioned, it can/could take time for help to arrive,

Sumner
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 20, 2018, 10:57:36 AM
A one piece suit stays put on your body better in a reclined-lay down position providing better protection if you become the shrimp on the barbie. Just peel the top down if you're going to wander around in it but you only need to be suited up three cars back in line.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: fordboy628 on January 20, 2018, 02:51:34 PM
First let me see if my local blue printing co can do a drawing that is this large, 34" x 54". Or I can take a photo. Let me check.

Rex

Rex,

A 34" x 54" print/poster/photo can be scanned by a Blueprint Shop.     Most print shops that cater to architects and engineering firms can scan large format documents.    The output file can be in .dwg format; or .jpeg; or one of the other photo formats.   If the operator is "knowledgable" they should also be able to "raster scan" at high resolution.    A regular "photo copy" shop, is probably unable to copy that size print, unless in sections.   But again, you would need to check.    A "one piece" roll scan should keep all dimensions correct and to scale, an advantage over a multi-part pieced together scan.

For the information of other readers, U.S. engineering and architectural print sheet sizes, in inches, are:

A:       8.5 x 11
B:       11 x 17
C:       17 x 22
D:       22 x 34
E:       34 x 44
E roll   34 x  ? ?

Further, there are any number of 'roll' formats where the length is virtually unlimited.    Typical roll widths are 34" and 44".       48" and 54" are also available, but not as common.

Hope this is of some help.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 22, 2018, 11:09:07 AM
An apology. My comment about posting the plans (P38) didn’t “translate” - I had my tongue firmly in my cheek and meant don’t bother to photocopy, please post the originals but it may have appeared I was cheekily asking for a hard copy. Sorry. I’d love a photocopy if that’s possible.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 23, 2018, 03:50:46 AM
After forum feedback and an initial change I have now concluded the mounting of the roll hoops onto the top rail.

I think this is a good compromise; it reduces the angle slightly so perhaps also reduces the effect of a load splaying the top rails (marginal I suspect). It also reduces the frontal area by about one square inch - result.  :-D

The pic shows the mock up roll hoop with a piece of waste tube at the intersection of the top rail, without the duct tape - the 'tail' of the tube will weld onto the diagonal braces so its all nicely stitched together.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 24, 2018, 05:14:07 AM
Helmet visor: I have found a UK supplier of racing helmets certified Snell 2015 and one of the options they offer are different visor tints. One that appeals is iridium blue (light or dark tint).

My normal sunglasses are Revo and Serengeti and when we were on the salt last year the sunglasses booth said I didn't need to buy from them as I had the right tint for the glare off the salt. My sunglasses have glass lenses so are probably not up to the 'shatterproof' rule.

Any comments on tinted visors?

Useful, pointless, darker the better?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on January 24, 2018, 09:13:18 AM
We always go with the dark windshield and clear visor... then it is driver choice if they wear sunglasses or not.  I never wear sunglasses but Johnboy always wears sunglasses. If I remember right Corey did not, Pork Pie did not, Marty did, Alan did, Kevin did not, Barc did not, Nick did not..... the rest I don't remember...  :roll:

My thought is a clear visor lets the rescue crew see your eyes for preliminary assessment...
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 24, 2018, 11:10:00 AM
I've raced with both clear and tinted visors and mirrored/non-mirror.  As far as I can tell, the mirror ones provide a far higher coolness factor than the plain versions.  FAR HIGHER!  The hot chicks fairly swoon, for sure!  Even some of the not-so-hot chicks aren't immune to the reflective-visored racers.

When I started wearing glasses that transition to dark as the brightness increases I discovered that a clear visor was fine.  And so that's what I do now.  After all, I've got Nancy - no further swoonosity is required by me.

Q. E. D.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 24, 2018, 11:54:56 AM
Thank you; clear visor it is - after 33 years of marriage I definitely don't need swoonage - I wouldn't know what to do with it.

If the rescue truck is required they wont need to see my eyes - their olfactory senses will quickly determine if I'm functioning.

Order being placed for helmet, neck restraint and harnesses - that will determine egressability and sign off the basic roll structure.
Many thanks to all for the comments, advise and suggestions to get me this far.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Dr Goggles on January 24, 2018, 02:15:54 PM
The clutch pedal assembly (new part) was dropped in to check that the leg position would allow full throw. The photocopy instruments were a vanity but on gluing them to the dash (subsequently modified to get in and out) they had me think about sight lines through the steering wheel (which is itself plywood and pipe insulation).

John

I 'm not sure how much room you've got but I made a rocker pedal for our clutch rather than a pedestal pedal. It actuates on pressing your heel down and means you can leave your foot on the pedal. It mightn't seem like a big deal but you may not have the room to take your foot right off the clutch.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 24, 2018, 03:38:49 PM
He's not going to be as bunched up as you are in yours Gogg's.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on January 25, 2018, 09:43:54 AM
John:

When you begin searching for a head and neck restraint system, take a look at Necksgen. They are very compact and work well in tight or confined cages. I am a pretty big guy for my smallish lakester, OK, OK, I am a fat guy for a smallish lakester and have a hard enough time getting out of my car and didn't need to fight a head and neck restraint too. Necksgen was the perfect solution and didn't make me feel like all my cervical vertebrae were fused.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 25, 2018, 10:14:43 AM
Believe it or not I worked outwards from the foot area; I have size 13 feet in most shoe makes (some are 12 but that's just to make me feel better, like dress sizing).  I used to have a '69 Europa (the teeny tiny Lotus) and that has the smallest footwell around - that was my minimum. I have dimensions of that somewhere if anyone is interested in what you can drive with big plates on the end of your legs.

I was looking at the Leatt MRX PRO head and neck as its SFI tested and certified, has a low neck piece so fits any driving position without needing different angles (or adjustment) and is retailed in the UK. Anyone no this version - good, bad, ugly?

I will look at Necksgen before I place the order, thanks.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 25, 2018, 11:40:45 AM
My choice of the bunch is the Simpson Hybrid, it has a lot less bulk to it & the more reclined you get the more that becomes an issue. In many situations the helmet hits the collar preventing you getting your head far enough forward to be able to see straight ahead. Before you commit to buy, see if you can borrow & try.
You really don't need to own this $hit right now, by the time you're ready to run you'll be re-certifying everything, belts included.
Looks like the Leatt is one size fits all, hope they don't make condoms! :|
  Sid.
Article.http://www.racedaysafety.com/whhenere.html
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 26, 2018, 02:00:30 PM
I definitely agree with Sid, the Simpson part seems to be one of the least restrictive for entry and exit to close cockpit situations. My son, Duke, aka "The Hero Driver" uses one and he is about 6 ft and weights about 175 lbs, broad of shoulder and narrow of hip but he fits into (and get out of) our car(which is 25 in. dia and the frame rails are 18 inches apart) very well. Of course he has the advantage of youth and he is a world class rock climber which makes him stronger than hell! I have attache a pic of the drive area in our car for comparison to yours, pretty small.

I have also attache a pic of the P-38 (Lockheed Interceptor) blue print that I have.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 29, 2018, 09:53:11 AM
Thanks for the pic Rex - there is a flying legends display at Duxford in the UK in July and there will be a P-38 coming over from Austria on the flight line - there does not appear to even be one on display in he UK. Definitely want to see that in the flesh.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 29, 2018, 06:25:44 PM
Thanks for the pic Rex - there is a flying legends display at Duxford in the UK in July and there will be a P-38 coming over from Austria on the flight line - there does not appear to even be one on display in he UK. Definitely want to see that in the flesh.

There might be one in Wales.

http://blog.flightstory.net/430/lockheed-p-38-lightning-found-on-uk-beach/

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: edinlr on January 29, 2018, 07:58:36 PM
I would hold off on the helmet purchase until close to driving time.  The helmets are dated and you could get a helmet that is already a year or two old and then it might be a while before you race.  Why risk just being able to have a five year helmet.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 30, 2018, 07:39:01 AM
Imagine building sand castles and unearthing a P-38.

Talking of beaches; I am going to get the helmet to finalise roll structure but also I need to do some driving to shake down - there are a couple of runway opportunities in the UK but also and significantly there are a few events on Pendine Sands so I can pretend to be Malcolm Campbell or Parry_Jones (Bluebird / Babs).

In the next week I plan to be in a position to send to tech my latest (last) evolution of the roll structure and then its time to replacing the waste pipe with cold drawn seamless (CDS / DOM) and the duct tape with TIG welds.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 30, 2018, 09:32:53 AM
A sidebar about helmet buying/"expiration date":

In the grand scheme of things, a helmet that'll be valid for 10 years won't suffer for being a year old when you really need to use it.  There'd be 90% life remaining.  Not a big deal, and prudence says you might consider replacing it before the final day, anyway.

That, however, depends on your buying a helmet that's as new as possible.  If you're shopping in a store you can check for yourself and make sure you get something fresh, but if you're buying online please consider specifying that the helmet must brand new (i.e. valid for the longest possible time) and that you'll return it if it isn't.

Keep that in mind when buying and you likely won't regret getting the helmet early.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 27, 2018, 03:44:50 AM
After some correspondence with tech the roll structure is waiting for the steel to arrive.

Using the down time to solve some other aspects so they are designed in and don't become problems later in the build;

Parachute in a tube.

Can anyone point me to a discussion (I can't find it) on the forum, or provide me with plans or a detailed photo diary of using a 6" tube to pack and launch a chute; I want to make sure I am designing it correctly.

I would like to understand the tube size required (I wrote to Stroud but I guess they don't answer email).

Launch propulsion; a spring or a gas strut (as in the ones that hold car trunk lids open - I can get those to any length and force)?
What is the plunger end made of, what stops it misaligning and wedging in the tube?
What stops the shroud getting stuck on the edge of the plunger if clearance to the tube is required, and;

Am I overthinking this?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on February 27, 2018, 06:44:40 AM
On mine the spring is part of the drogue 'chute. When released, it pulls the main 'chute out. Simple.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 27, 2018, 06:54:53 AM
Drogue chute, simples, yes; thank you. I was over thinking it.

Do you pack into a bespoke deployment bag or just stuff the chute in the 6" tube, put the drogue in last, compress its spring and engage the end flaps and release cable?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on February 27, 2018, 10:10:56 AM
Drogue chute, simples, yes; thank you. I was over thinking it.

Do you pack into a bespoke deployment bag or just stuff the chute in the 6" tube, put the drogue in last, compress its spring and engage the end flaps and release cable?

I have done it both ways and both worked fine.

As for the 6" diameter chute tube; It depends on if you will pull through the tube or just use a tube to contain the chute itself. If you pull through the tube, it should be mounted central to where you tether to the chassis. If you tether outside the tube, you can mount the tube anywhere you like. Of course, this is just my opinion and there are many ways to accomplish what you want.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on February 27, 2018, 10:20:12 AM
I use a bag and mount outside the tube at the proper height.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stan Back on February 27, 2018, 10:26:55 AM
. . .  and to the length of the tube – depends on the length of the whole package, mainly the size of the chute.  A manufacturer will help you decide what size you need and purchasing early won't hurt in deciding the tube length.  Make it a couple of inches longer than needed, then, if you need a larger chute, or it grows with use, you can still use the same tube.  Store a roll of duct tape in there to take up the slack.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 27, 2018, 11:22:34 AM
A 6" tube is good for a standard 5" pilot & 6" pvc sewer pipe is cheap & desirable. Don't mount the tow line inside the tube, that creates leverage on the back of the car when the chute hits off center & that upsets the car plus it beats the $hit out of the tow line & the tube. Make the tube longer than you need & pack it up with foam board spacers with three lugs on them so they fit tight in the tube. Put a string loop through the middle so you can hook them out of there as needed. The whole laundry pack gets bigger & stiffer after use on the salt. There's one correct point to attach the tow line & that's just below axle center line at the diff, everything else is a compromise.
Any release system has to have a mechanical override (rules) & in many of the cable systems the pilot spring loads the cable making them hard to pull & to load. Every year I teach at least one new team how to pack a tube chute & I've seen a lot of systems, most of them I don't like. Look hard & long before you decide.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 06, 2018, 07:13:59 AM
There's a jig in my mind
I hear it all the time
Dancing to the jig in my mind

It comes from the mountains
Across (through) the mists of time
Man, this little jig is fine

It came into my life
On an old and ancient stream frame on castors
Part of my ancestors dream

I'll listen to you
Even if your jig is blue black and the frame is blue
Maybe that'll help it heal

Steve Young
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 06, 2018, 07:21:15 AM
Many thanks for the chute comments.

I have a confession; I have opted to outsource the roll structure; although I can weld etc. I am a hobbiest and I think that part needs to be right in case it goes pear shaped on the salt; I think it was Kiwi Sid who said that he learned to sculpt before he learned to weld - that's me - I am an artiste with an angle grinder.

The jig was made by Gary at Loaded Gunn to my working drawings and my 1:1 plastic tube and duct tape model. He will do the tiggery.
He builds race car chassis (monocoque and tubular) which compete very successfully and is a hot rodder.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 19, 2018, 03:25:40 AM
Roll structure progresses (sans helmet hoops).
I have a business trip to the US in May and will pickup some bits while I am there.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on April 19, 2018, 09:41:34 AM
John, if your trip includes middle America (Wichita KS) John Goodman (GGL205) and I will show you our 2 liter challengers...
Your frame is looking stout... keep the pics coming  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 19, 2018, 10:33:14 AM
Thanks Stainless
Our company offices are, unfortunately as I'd love to see you cars, Irvine Ca and Madison NJ. I've managed to visit both this trip but it doesn't leave me much time to get to Simpson in Ca (if they allow visitors) and some parts are being sent to a hot rod colleague in NJ, which is why I depart from that coast (don't have to lug them via Delta cattle class - don't think they would be amused but Int'l should be okay).

I'll wave as I flyover on Wednesday May 23rd.

Just received my DJ harness (for set-up and testing in the UK) after several months - translation issue - my mistake; I wanted to 'loop' the shoulder webbing around a cross member but Loop is a different meaning and what I should have specified is wrap around. Loop is continuous from the latch, over one shoulder, loop a tube, back over the other shoulder to the latch - that makes it a 6 point harness doesn't it - I assume a 'point' is a chassis attachment.

The adjuster on the wrist restraints is two piece - I thought there was dialogue about that but DJ had been approved - now more confused than when I woke up this morning.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on April 19, 2018, 10:38:05 PM
No Problem... next time tell them you want to be here an extra 2 weeks and drive.... I'll bet there are folks you can visit and stay with coast to coast  :wink:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 20, 2018, 07:13:23 AM
No Problem... next time tell them you want to be here an extra 2 weeks and drive.... I'll bet there are folks you can visit and stay with coast to coast  :wink:
 :cheers:

Yes indeed, John. Plenty of room for you if/when you visit Wichita, Kansas. Guarantee plenty of bench racing too.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 20, 2018, 08:12:33 AM
Halfway between you have a place to flop in Utah.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 20, 2018, 09:15:45 AM
And I hope it goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) if you need anything this side of the pond, or are visiting the UK.... we are about 35 mins from Heathrow.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 26, 2018, 04:49:23 AM
I was wondering why I was not seeing turbulators on LSR cars but then discovered it may be a patent issue (US Patent 9,394,011 B1)   :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 26, 2018, 08:54:02 AM
I was wondering why I was not seeing turbulators on LSR cars but then discovered it may be a patent issue (US Patent 9,394,011 B1)   :-D

Not sure but like vortex generators, knowing where to put them is a problem. Placement is not intuitive so putting them in the wrong place does little to no good. They look cool, however.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 10, 2018, 04:29:18 AM
The Lemming Motors aero test facility is almost complete.

It may prove to be a rabbit hole exercise but I learned quite a lot doing the research, or, perhaps, it is more accurate to say that I learned more things I didn't know I didn't know.

It is intended to answer one question for the Lakester configuration.

If I can get a graph-able drag response I'll take the conclusion, if not I will revert to plan 'A' - toss a coin. At this time I have to seriously uprate the fanage so although this was always going to be a low speed scale tunnel the current breeze in the test area is not going to cut it.

Bother.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: comet on May 10, 2018, 07:26:16 AM
You get get a couple of the politicians to debate in front of thew inlet, that'd send a shed load of air down the pipe.
 :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 10, 2018, 10:34:09 AM
Comet - I don't want to damage the model!

On a serious note: Wrist Restraints
I just received my 2018 rule book and wasn't 100% sure on the new rule interpretation so I sent the attached pics to tech and got a thumbs up from Lee really quickly. I wonder if they have had a lot of correspondence on that one.

Tech (and this forum) have been very helpful to me; being remote as I am I cant afford to bake issues in and discover them when I turn up half way around the world.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 04, 2018, 08:21:37 AM
Sounds like some good salt this year.

Roll structure progresses but its short of a few items to be ready in time for SW 2018  :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: comet on July 04, 2018, 10:26:15 AM
A coat of paint on it will get the job done.  :wink:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 04, 2018, 01:39:19 PM
That is a very nice chassis, I really like the way you have got the load paths from the cage feed into the chassis. Nice job!!

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 09, 2018, 05:32:36 AM
Personally very happy with the structure; some tweaks made following comments to the early iteration of the model on this forum and now its steel the project becomes very real.

The roll structure was loaded on a trailer and I visited the supplier for my harness - he also imports extinguisher and chutes (I want the safety kit to be recognizable brands) so we had a chat and a measure up. I can get a 5 lb bottle under the seat no problem but the 10 lb would mean amending the lower X brace and I don't want to do that - having re-read the rulebook..... 'at least 5 lbs for the driver' I interpret that to mean, in my application, 2 x 5 lb bottles linked - that will still be neat and out of the way under the seat and protected in the event of an oops and I am happy the roll structure design did allow that to work. The engine bay 10 lb bottle will be back with the oily bits.

Thinking chute (planning way ahead), mounted in a tube with a sprung pilot to launch, Martin asked me to provide him the target speed, all up weight and how fast I want to stop. I am assuming slow deployment rather than multiple g and eyes on stalks; what does that mean in the real world though?

Question: if I was (very optimistically) cruising through the 5 at 220 mph how much distance would you work on to have the chute pull that down to say 50 mph - half a mile, a mile, less - am I even asking the right question? Thanks.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Buamotorsport on July 09, 2018, 08:39:22 AM
Please remember that when tech inspect the car they must be able to see the fire bottles. And laying them down on the side is probably not ideal. They should be vertical or have a high angle. Put them and then a a nozzle or nozzles into the driver area.  Also, over a certain speed remember you have to have 2 chutes.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: handyguy on July 09, 2018, 09:09:48 AM
I inspect cars that people have pictures of  (can't see parts) , not sure about the fire bottles unseen .  Access panel would fix that with view of inspection  sticker.    And how will you pull bottle safety pins ??    2 nozzles in engine compartment  and 1 for driver required , some people have more than minimum nozzles ..    STEVE
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on July 09, 2018, 11:38:47 PM
Put the safety at the handle end of the cable like most everybody else does.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on July 10, 2018, 10:09:19 AM
We always seem the use a mile to slow, get out somewhere past the 6

Bottles laying down are just fine, if they are designed to lay down... our halon bottles have been like that for 30 years.

download the SCTA inspection sheet and ensure everything on that can be seen... including the attachments for everything on the sheet.  We remove as many body panels as we think we need to, if they want more removed, you can do that while they inspect something else on the sheet
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on July 10, 2018, 12:08:46 PM
We always seem the use a mile to slow, get out somewhere past the 6

Bottles laying down are just fine, if they are designed to lay down... our halon bottles have been like that for 30 years.

download the SCTA inspection sheet and ensure everything on that can be seen... including the attachments for everything on the sheet.  We remove as many body panels as we think we need to, if they want more removed, you can do that while they inspect something else on the sheet

Verily, Stainless doth speak truth... horizontal mounting of a halon bottle is fine. See:

https://safecraft.com/wp-content/documents/installation/model-lt/Model_LT_Installation.pdf

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 11, 2018, 02:45:36 AM
Many thanks for the replies.

The bottles can be mounted flat (per the company) but will in fact follow the line of the seat back so they have an up angle. I was intending to have a swaged hole (bomber seat style) in the seat back to eyeball the fill gauge but from the above comments have determined that also having quick removal of that section of the seat back (basically the spine region) would facilitate other aspects of inspection.

I was assuming the safety pins would be at the handles as the firing levers on the bottles will be completely isolated but belt and braces might be a good idea - at least for transport.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: handyguy on July 11, 2018, 08:53:38 AM
Inspection of fire bottles requires seeing the fill date  tag / decal, less than 2 years .   STEVE
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 16, 2018, 07:51:46 AM
Went to an air-show over the weekend (IWM Flying Legends) at Duxford UK. Everything on the flight line got into the air (B17, 11 Spitfires, a DC3 and a DC6, Focke Wulfe's, Hurricanes, Grumman cats, Curtis -Wright Hawk, War-Hawk, P40, B-25 Mitchell's, Corsair and etc.). Then they did a display with an F35 which ripped the sky apart.

Towards the end of the day a P-38 Lightning came out to play and, with the association to the original tankers, I freely admit to getting a little excited seeing one in the flesh.

Not many in the air this side of the pond these days - it had come over from Austria.

Unfortunately there were no belly tanks 'lying around' in the museum or workshop sections (all open to the public) so I didn't get a chance to see if one would fit on my roof bars.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: comet on July 16, 2018, 08:22:40 AM
I quite fancied going to RIAT this weekend with a mate. Unfortunately I got booked up for a wedding instead. Missed the air show which seemed to be very good. Maybe I can get to one later in the year. Luckily I do get to see the odd spitfire every now and again from Headcorn. They sometimes do a fly over near enough to see and hear them.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 24, 2018, 11:27:22 AM
Almost made a newbie mistake so I record it here for future builders of limited experience.

The roll structure is fully welded and I am mocking up the cockpit area; steering column and wheel, gear shift lever (manual shift), fire T handles, chute release etc. before mounting anything permanently. After several tries I got the steering wheel in a nice position; tacked in place using thin scrap as the column mount so that I could bend it to fit while seated in the position.

I was pretty convinced that was right and started to make a proper column mount. I got distracted and came back to it and decided to mock up the harness mounts instead. Got in, cinched them up as tight as I could on my own and oh dear - the steering wheel is too close to me now as I have almost zero shoulder movement and so I need to have the wheel at a longer arms reach - lucky save.

Henceforth I shall be belted in before checking likely positions of anything being added in the cockpit; especially the cup holders.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on July 24, 2018, 07:02:38 PM
Almost made a newbie mistake so I record it here for future builders of limited experience.

The roll structure is fully welded and I am mocking up the cockpit area; steering column and wheel, gear shift lever (manual shift), fire T handles, chute release etc. before mounting anything permanently. After several tries I got the steering wheel in a nice position; tacked in place using thin scrap as the column mount so that I could bend it to fit while seated in the position.

I was pretty convinced that was right and started to make a proper column mount. I got distracted and came back to it and decided to mock up the harness mounts instead. Got in, cinched them up as tight as I could on my own and oh dear - the steering wheel is too close to me now as I have almost zero shoulder movement and so I need to have the wheel at a longer arms reach - lucky save.

Henceforth I shall be belted in before checking likely positions of anything being added in the cockpit; especially the cup holders.


It gets even tighter with the fire suite on so suit up for all fitment tests.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Jack Gifford on July 24, 2018, 11:16:24 PM
lemming- thanks for that advice.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: RidgeRunner on July 25, 2018, 09:59:24 AM
     Also don't overlook factoring in a little extra room for the future due to the usual aging process when it becomes much easier to gain than lose weight.  Trust us, don't ask how we know..........

     Further down the road it could determine how quick a larger driver digs out a purchase price.

                Ed
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Sumner on July 25, 2018, 02:38:43 PM
In a lay-down car distance to pedals and steering and other controls are much more critical than for a car with more conventional seating.  I made all of those adjustable to hopefully work for drivers of different heights and such.  Not that it matters much if the car never goes down the track  :cry:

Sumner
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 26, 2018, 10:00:10 AM
Ed, the starting place is a larger driver so that should be covered if 6 foot and change and two hundred and thirty ish pounds counts?

Sumner; yes to adjustable pedals but my steering will be fixed; its going to have manual shift so that will be placed for my convenience which limits the driver adjustability - maybe a removable seat back that re-bolts in with steel spacers to the roll structure - something to noodle.
I read you site cover to cover a couple of years ago - sorry, I am not aware of why it isn't on the salt but given the work done it deserves to be.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: RidgeRunner on July 28, 2018, 06:23:49 AM
     Two thirty ish is just about where I started, another twenty ish crept in from somewhere before we got the car down a course.  6 foot would have covered me well, the weight must have come from the shrinking result of the natural aging process..............   :-D

     All my best for you to stay safe, have fun, and go fast  :cheers:

           Ed
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 29, 2018, 08:47:13 AM
A small amount of progress on the roll structure; harness mounts and steering column mocked up to sort out the location of all the bits (including the fleshy ones) in the cockpit area.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 29, 2018, 08:55:04 AM
Question: I understand the gas pedal needs to be a positive return (i.e. a toe strap) but how does that work with regard to the throttle cables - normally the butterflies pull closed with spring tension at the throttle bodies (I'm running n.a.). Now I am wondering if it is intended to mean that one cable pulls the butterfly open and the other cable is a return to pull it closed??

With a toe strap all I am doing is bring the gas pedal back to the start position but with Bowden cables this has no positive action closing the butterflies. Should I be thinking push / pull cables? Why am I thinking this now - I am sorting out the pedal assembly in the cockpit and am making the gas pedal box bespoke.

Rule 3.J
Twin throttle cables / springs  .....
.....with two (2) adequate return springs. There shall be a positive stop to prevent sticking in ‘over centre’ position.
Accelerator toe straps are required except on OEM cable or hydraulic throttles. 
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 29, 2018, 08:58:30 AM
Ultimately form will follow function but here is a 1:18 scale concept model (with the SoCal Lakester for perspective) for general amusement.

I am sure it will look nothing like this in 12 or so months time but I can sit this on my desk to remind me why I go to work and travel occasionally to the US for business parts buying trips.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on August 29, 2018, 09:30:20 AM
We use a Morse Cable for throttle, looks like this...
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15706/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710779705&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=39714413703&CATCI=pla-457013475003&CATARGETID=230006180040357463&cadevice=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzaiumLuS3QIVnbjACh1s4gISEAQYASABEgJGzPD_BwE

Lord what a long link... they are used on outboard motors for steering among lots of other uses.  Shifter cable is another.
They are made to length so you can get what you need, it might uncomplicate your throttle
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on August 29, 2018, 10:38:04 AM
Lemming;

Yes, you will need a push-pull control cable for your throttle, a Bowden cable will not meet the rule book requirements. I'd recommend contacting these guys: 

http://www.controlcables.com/push-pull-cables/

They can supply any length you want as well as various choices of end fittings. Tell them that it is for a throttle cable and they will suggest a low-friction cable. To measure your length, use a rope or garden hose to route where the cable will run and then measure that lying out straight. Keep the bends as large a radius as possible and secure the cable at intervals with clamps so that the friction will be lower and lost motion will be small.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 29, 2018, 01:01:17 PM
Thanks guys

I have used Morse cables when I did bespoke shift mechanism for the Europa.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on August 29, 2018, 06:49:53 PM
A Bowden type cable is legal, it's recommended that you don't use a plastic lined type for obvious reasons. Morse type cables can be very draggy when the engine is two city blocks behind you due to the length & bends making it hard to get good throttle response.
Another option is a clutch master/slave cyl hydraulic setup or you can buy a system for about $400us ready to go.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on August 29, 2018, 07:00:40 PM
Sid & Lemming;

The problem with hydraulic throttle setups is that the hydraulic fluid expands and contracts as its temperature changes. It is hard to set the stops unless the temperature is constant.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 30, 2018, 02:59:53 AM
Thanks everyone.

I just re-read the text (rule 3.J) in the actual rulebook. I have gone through the rule book and transcribed (read typed) out all the sections relevant to me and made notes so that I can work on the vehicle by 'area'. For some reason I had typed out rule 3.J in such a way that in it reads two throttle cables - I am taking the word 'redundant' literally to mean two cables but if its a morse type push / pull does it really need two of these cables?.

Does RTFM translate?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on August 30, 2018, 09:26:49 AM
Lemming;

One push-pull control cable.

Two return springs.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on September 19, 2018, 02:50:12 AM
Throttle cable on order (one of, push pull) so the throttle assembly will have to wait.

In the mean time I thought it worthwhile to line out the roll structure to ensure that final placement of the contents (with fire suit and harness, neck restraint, boots, gloves, helmet etc on) is as restrictive as it will be in life; having gaps between the tubes does allow bits to ooze out and make it feel larger than it really is.

2mm aluminium on top of the full size roll structure tubing used to reinforce the seating area (as seen in previous pics).
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on September 19, 2018, 02:53:03 AM
The aluminium still has its plastic sheet covering and not all the locating fixtures are installed yet. The two 1/2" bolts are the lower seat belt mount points and neatly line up with bum rather than bone.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on September 24, 2018, 02:24:24 PM
John, as you are laying things out for your lakester, I would like to mention a tech related issue I faced at the 2017 WoS. If your fuel tank is mounted ahead of your foot box, a fluid tight bulkhead will have to be made just like the one separating the driver from a mid-engine configuration. Rules state that the roll cage extends the full length of the driver compartment so place your bulkhead forward of what constitutes your foot box. Also, if you plan to run fuel lines from front to back, you will need a steel enclosure (round or rectangular steel tubing) for your fuel lines, to capture any fuel potentially reaching the driver. Additionally, locate your electric fuel pump (if you use one) on the forward side of the front bulkhead.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on September 26, 2018, 04:35:50 AM
Thanks John, I appreciate the suggestions and warnings.

At this stage the only thing in the cockpit with me are the brake and clutch master cylinders. Nothing forward of the foot box structure. Of course, when I start to squeeze things in rear of the firewall the space may dictate different solutions than those in my head.

Finalised the inner lining last night and bolted the harnesses in. Strapped myself in as tight as I could and made vroom vroom noises. Couldn't actually reach the turnbuckle to release the harnesses - my hand didn't quite turn back on itself far enough with the shoulders so completely isolated and no way of nudging an elbow out the side now the sides are in.
I 'lay' there with the vroom vroom noises gently turning to a whimper. Apart from the obvious bail out fail I was wondering how long it would be before Tracey came out to say it was time to come inside - she doesn't mind me spending time with the mistress in the garage but a bit at a time, not hours on end.
Then I clocked that the shoulder harnesses could be easily slackened off in that position (only needed to slacken one) and that freed my arm movement to allow my hand to do the buckle - a 2 second release process so that should be fine (?).

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on September 26, 2018, 09:08:36 AM
Tight cockpits have that issue with the buckles that require you to turn a knob... If you could loosen your own shoulder harness you weren't in tight enough, were you wearing your arm restraints as well?  My suggestion is get a duckbill release for your 7 point harness. 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on September 26, 2018, 09:23:26 AM
I wasn't wearing the wrist restraints. I was on my own after all. That would have been kinky.

Have a friend from NZ visiting this weekend - he has ambitions to drive Squeeze of Lemming (we went to SW as spectators last year) so we'll explore how tight we can strap in (with wrists) and see what happens.

One step forward....and he trips over.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 02, 2018, 10:37:21 AM
The big day arrived and mini Squeeze of Lemming went into the Lammas Way wind tunnel.

Initial trials gave a measurable drag force (on a set of jewellers scales) but reproducibility was poor and I had to conclude that I learned a lot about wind tunnels and aero by researching and building this but absolutely nothing useful for the build in terms of data - I was hoping (okay, maybe too much hope involved) to learn something about wheel track - I did not.

I think I made the test area too large for the amount of suck available, or maybe the model is simply too slippery.  :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 02, 2018, 10:38:34 AM
At least the throttle pedal and push / pull cable appear to be working as they should.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: tauruck on October 02, 2018, 02:58:42 PM
Went to an air-show over the weekend (IWM Flying Legends) at Duxford UK. Everything on the flight line got into the air (B17, 11 Spitfires, a DC3 and a DC6, Focke Wulfe's, Hurricanes, Grumman cats, Curtis -Wright Hawk, War-Hawk, P40, B-25 Mitchell's, Corsair and etc.). Then they did a display with an F35 which ripped the sky apart.

Towards the end of the day a P-38 Lightning came out to play and, with the association to the original tankers, I freely admit to getting a little excited seeing one in the flesh.

Not many in the air this side of the pond these days - it had come over from Austria.

Unfortunately there were no belly tanks 'lying around' in the museum or workshop sections (all open to the public) so I didn't get a chance to see if one would fit on my roof bars.

When I was involved in online combat flying (Microsoft Combat Flight Sim 2) there was a site called Duxford Legends where you could download 3rd party planes. The home page had audio of a Spitfire passing low overhead at full tilt.
The first time you hear it it scares the Subaru out of you. My old mate Errol (79) at the time fell off his chair. I felt really bad about suggesting he turn the sound up to full volume. :oops:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 05, 2018, 08:35:16 AM
Making vroom vroom noises.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 05, 2018, 09:13:33 PM
John, That looks great! I really like the raised forward floor, it looks comfortable and your legs are well protected and lots of options for the body shape. The whole thing lookis like a great foundation for a great lakester. Keep it up.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 05, 2018, 10:24:42 PM
The A2 wind tunnel in North Carolina is set up for testing vehicles sent to them from remote places with video links to their distant  customers.  The customers do not need to be there for the testing.  That might be an option.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: SPARKY on October 06, 2018, 04:10:30 PM
Sir Lemmings
on the 126 post just where are you planning on the frt axle passing through?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 07, 2018, 12:36:04 PM
Rex; thank you. Only time and money and some more money and some salt will prove the design.

Wobbly; MIRA in the U.K. has a full size wind tunnel. I wrote to them but was met with silence. It sounds like A2 has some LSR experience. Waiting for a lottery win to be able to make multiple trips to the U.S. from the U.K.

Sparky; the front axle is planned to be around 2 inches under the bottom rail under the legs; pretty much directly under the point that the two diag braces make this is the widest point of the chassis and tapers forward from there - under the calves / ankles give or take. In theory the roll structure will provide some weight over the axle. There will be vertical push rods acting on a rocker translating bump and rebound to horizontal coil overs pretty much above the thighs mounted along the top longitudinal tube.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 13, 2018, 11:28:17 AM
Had a great business trip to Irvine Ca last week. Made time to visit Simpson and am now the proud owner of an SFI 20 suit. They did me a deal as I only ‘need’ a 15 but they didn’t have stock and when I called a couple of weeks ago they couldn’t make one up in time for my visit. Over specking the suit has been recommended to me so that worked out okay.

Talking to the nice man who will help with my engine build and this came up..... I will be running gas: what octane is typically available at Bonneville and perhaps a little optimistically: how are tanks sealed after a fill if one was on a qualifying run?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Ron Gibson on October 13, 2018, 12:33:37 PM
Any octane you need. Rick (ERC) will ask size, comp ratio, etc, and recommend what you need. Rick seals the tank with a piece of duct tape and a marker. The "MAYOR" knows what it is supposed to look like and can tell if it's been tampered with.

Ron
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 14, 2018, 03:19:51 PM
Thanks Ron
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 29, 2018, 09:53:56 AM
DIY, canoe training and work seem to be interfering lately. I decided to mount the pedal assembly this weekend (just been sitting in-situ until now) and in the process did some rework and made the mounting adjustable for different leg lengths.

That creates a lot of extra work (drilling, welding nuts in place) and more plate (3mm) than I expected but I want them a bit more robust than simply bolted through the 2mm ally floor.

I just don't have the experience to determine the material weights so typically apply the 'too much is just right' engineering principle.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 29, 2018, 10:30:58 AM
Overkill's not a problem, especially in the front. You'll likely need a location to add ballast in the future.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 29, 2018, 10:34:13 AM
Hey Sid
Ballast is easy - eat more pies, drink more ale.  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: tauruck on October 29, 2018, 11:57:01 AM
You can't deny that you're loving this and you're being consumed!!!!!!.
Sodium addiction. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 29, 2018, 09:09:22 PM
As my materials instructor , HP Davis, always said "When in doubt, make it stout"! Looking good.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 05, 2018, 07:55:02 AM
A steering question.

On the Seth Hammond lakester the steering rack (appears) to be attached to the tube axle and by crude isometric calculation has a track at the front around 48". The rack appears to be about 12" wide from rose joint to rose joint. In that configuration the rack will go up and down with the axle and there will be zero bump steer. In the case where the steering column is long and at a shallow angle it will travel through a very shallow arc. which appears to be case in the Hammond configuration.

I am mounting my axle relatively close to the steering wheel (i.e. under my legs) and so the column would go through a very steep angle. Too steep for practical purposes with the rack travelling with the axle.  One option is to take it through a 90 degree steering bevel box and have the rack's pinion mounted vertically with a sliding spline between it and the bevel box.

Opinions please - is there a risk to the steering relying on a vertical sliding spline not to bind and would I be better rigidly mounting the rack to the chassis, having no movement in the column and sucking up the bump steer (if any)? I am assuming no more than 1 to 1.5" of wheel travel in bump. A wide track would give less bump steer?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on November 05, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
We eliminated our bump steer with a rack mounted to the axle.  We use a center load rack which allows longer tie rods.  Nothing says your rack has to be mounted vertical or horizontal... find the optimal angle.  Do not use a sliding spline, it will bind... use a D or double D... those are used on collapsible steering columns in a lot of cars, available parts and aftermarket pieces are found on Ebay.  Use as many u-joints as required.
Or don't use a rack if you can't find the angle... You can still mount an arm type steering box with a long shaft on the axle.... keep tie-rods as level as possible.  Either way, you need a slider on the steering column. 
We also use a steering quickener... 2:1 but mounted in reverse so it is a steering slower.  Round-e-round cars use them to turn faster, they work both ways.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 06, 2018, 12:42:55 PM
Mounting a rack to the chassis with a live axle is a horrible decision, as is having a sliding coupler on an axle mounted rack with a vertical pinion. A rack n pinion is also too fast & will need to be slowed down to lessen the sensitivity. mounting to the axle also adds un-sprung weight to the front end.
Drag link steering works fine on a lakester if it's all on the same plain, even with a center mounted steering box. My tank is this way, street legal with softer suspension, 5" of travel & see's the occasional 200+mph pass on US Hwy 30 & drives like a pi$$ed off Cadillac.
What are the deciding factors on having the front end so far back in the chassis that you're sitting on it?
  Sid. 
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 07, 2018, 05:19:52 AM
Thanks Sid, Stainless

Confession time; during the chassis mock-up phase I moved the 'dash' hoop forward a couple of times to facilitate getting in and out (knee clearance).
I  fixed the position of the pedals (now adjustable for shorter legs which complicates things slightly) but I completely failed to push the axle point forward by the same amount as the dash hoop, or, put another way, the required steering column angle got steeper. Why cant I move it forward? There is a lovely cross brace under the floor and in the original drawings the axle was under that with the 'rack' a few inches behind meaning that the column could go through the floor just behind the intersection of those tubes - it made sense at the time.  :roll: I can move the axle forward a few inches from the planned location and using double UJs can probably do a nice steering column to a chassis mounted steering box (source please).

The design concept of having the axle under your ankles / calves was to allow 4 bars etc. to be inside the body work (i.e. under the leggies) and put some weight on the front springs reducing the need for ballast weight for weight distribution. That of course assumes that locating the rad, fuel etc. rearward of the engine will put enough on the rear wheels for traction. 65 - 70% I assume is the target - off topic - coincidentally that's what my '69 Lotus Europa had with a Ford Focus 2 litre on ITBs etc and that left the line like salt off a shovel and handled far better than most moderns.
Vertical pushrods from the front axle are planned to operate rockers in the cockpit activating horizontally mounted coil overs above the legs.

The original plan was to use a 20:1 small rack, mounted on the axle. Since the steering column will now be quite steep it seemed logical to explore a 90 degree steering bevel box (Toyota Hiace, cab over axle HKD model). That creates a need for a vertically sliding column to accommodate bump and rebound. A nylon bushed sliding spline column was sourced but that has received warnings (thank you). I am not sure why double D would be better though?

I was looking at the 20:1 Stiletto rack on axle because I had
1. studied the Seth H Lakester pics and liked it, and
2. assumed that for a steering box in the centre of the vehicle any drag link from a chassis mounted box (i.e. a hot rod style front end) would, at only ~half the track width, be too short, and create bump steer. 

I guess if there is only 1.5" of front wheel travel in bump then a 20" - 25" drag link (with a full width tie rod) might work. I am not sure what steering box is slow enough. My parts sources are limited in the UK - any recommendation for a suitable steering box and Sid, how long are the steering arms and pitman arm on your Lakester - do you have pics of the steering box etc. by any chance?

Lemming John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 08, 2018, 12:17:11 AM
My first stop for that kind of stuff is the junkyard. In the tank I used non power box out of a mid 80's Mazda pickup, it worked best for that situation but look at all that old Jap junk. The box I ended up using in the liner is an FJ-60 Landcruiser & it's up side down to get the steering shaft under the diff & above the front tunnel.
I build a new steering arm, cut out a keyhole shape in the end & press in a section of the old splined end & weld it in. Then you can set the length you like to set ratio you like.
Front axle in the tank is a ball joint tube axle from a Jeep & the steering arms are stock length but I tweaked them to correct the Ackerman. Getting the ratio I like is all done at the steering box end. On the salt I like about 12 to 16 degrees total for one turn, anything much faster than that gets a bit too sensitive & can cause over input & on a short car that can mean pointing the wrong way on the salt.
Sitting basically on top of the axle you're not going to have much feel for what the chassis is doing since there won't be any good reference point ahead of you & if you build for 65 to 70% weight on the rear with a bunch of it behind the axle for the salt you will have a car with ducks disease that you probably won't like or worse! The heavy end likes to lead.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 08, 2018, 06:34:57 AM
Thanks Sid, I really appreciate the QC.

There will be body work forward of the driver. I race 2 person canoe and in the front seat it is harder to call the steering strokes than in the rear seat as the rear has more craft to align to the direction of travel so I do understand your point - I hope I haven't over done it and I obviously hope it will be driveable - time will tell. I agree with the weight point but surely you need rear axle weight for traction and a rear engine car will have a rear bias no matter what, hence the tail fins and etc. on most but then that creates a steering effect in a cross wind - eek. If the canoe is not trimmed properly (front to back weight) it definitely behaves as is if the pivot point is near the front so the arse swings in a cross wind - something aligned to CoP I assume vs. centre of hydrodynamic balance if that is even a thing.

Philosophically a front engine front wheel drive Lakester or Liner would make sense wrt weight and traction being I the same / right place.

UK breakers wont let you wander around anymore - you go up to a shiny office, order the part and they pick it (elf and safety guv'nor). Its more like a dealers parts department now. I miss NZ style wreckers where you take your box of tools and go rootling around and find something that you had in your head but don't know what make or model it comes from until you find it.

I am targeting something around 140" wheelbase with a 240" body (a bit less if its to fit in a 20' shipping container in one piece.)
I don't think my driving position will be much different to a trad. belly tank in terms of line of sight and there will be a lot of body work behind me trying to keep it straight (well, that's the hope).

I did find a 2:1 steering quickener online per Stainless' comment - never heard of them before then literally tripped over one on a site the next day. Serendipity. Shame it has a different spline and diameter to every rack and box on their site - surely that should be an industry standard, its nuts.

Interesting comment about Ackerman - I note that Stiletto (and probably Strange) spindles have none. I assume that dragsters and Lakesters go in straight lines and so wheel slip at manoeuvring speeds is not worth accounting for - I assume you have accounted for it for the road use, not the salt?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on November 08, 2018, 09:49:31 AM
Lemming;

Ackerman is useful on a race car for pushing the car around in the pits. In a straight line it does nothing at all but in a tight turn it keeps the tires from scrubbing.


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 08, 2018, 10:09:51 AM
Thanks Neil

It wont need to be in the pits - start line, finish line, start line and repeat  :-D

Seriously though - noted.

Lemming John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on November 08, 2018, 10:41:31 AM
Our lakester was 51 rear and the lower gears could overpower the tires.... generally had slip equal to tire growth but have calculated 4-5% at times based on Trap speed and rpm with our small rear tires... but generally less than 1% with our Landspeed Goodyears.   The back of the drivers head was about at the CoG.
We had and will again have a 140 inch WB and an almost 20 ft car.
I would rethink layout to have the axle in front of your feet.
Any amount of bump steer on the salt these days is too much at 220 MPH.  Yes if you chassis mount your bell crank steering at the same height as your axle you will limit bump with long arms.... but mounting a rack on the axle far outweighs the problems created by unsprung weight.... Just my personal opinion....
I would not put a vertical slider in steering... another opinion, but like I said, you can find an angle to mount it.
I don't know what sliding splines you were planning, but the salt is not very forgiving and finds its way into everything.  We have used D shafts for about 30 years, as collapsible long shaft and as a slider for our steering rack mounted on the axle.  
As far as having all the same spline count on everything... it gets hard to do... and not really necessary.  Steering U joints can be purchased with their splines and shafts.... you are custom making everything anyway so matching all of that does not matter.  While having quick steering helps prevent the 20 point turn around, the slowest and smallest amount of steering is what you want at 200 MPH and up... I can guarantee you will never steer out of a spin with a special construction landspeed car... aero, CoG, CoP and your parachute will be the deciding factors in what happens.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on November 08, 2018, 03:54:23 PM
Stainless;

Your figure of 4-5% tire growth is similar to what my friend John Horsman told me- he allowed 4% for Le Mans & Spa, both high speed tracks. Those were not LSR tires, of course, but their Porsche 917s were running speeds of 240 mph.


Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 08, 2018, 05:06:20 PM
You assume wrong John! I'm of the opinion that ALL front end geometry is more important on the salt due to there being a lot less traction for you to get response from.
Most people here on the forum know that Neil & I have a totally different opinion on the importance of Ackerman but it certainly doesn't mysteriously arrive at 45 degrees of wheel angle in the pits. It's progressive from 0 degrees & definitely as important as scrub radius, camber, caster & toe, especially if you start chasing it around on the salt.
Talk to lakester guys to get a better idea of what is undesirable.
Comparing canoes, Lotus Europa's & lakesters is like comparing apples & hand grenades & cheese graters.
Yes you need weight on the rear drive tires for traction but not to the detriment of balance. Understand the relevance of CP & CG, especially how they are more important on the salt than blacktop.
If you need to fit in a 20ft container, make the nose or tail or both removable. My liner is 40ft long but the last 10ft comes off for transport.
I'd hate to see you build a lemon & drag it over here only to be disappointed or get hurt.
  Sid.     
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 09, 2018, 03:50:24 AM
Thanks Stainless, Sid
My comparisons were more for amusement than design philosophy - I hope its not a grenade.

I do appreciate steering geometry - I was assuming that Stiletto did not have adjustable steering arm angles because 'they' did not think Ackermann was important. I wasn't ignoring it, simply curious, and the comments have reinforced the need for it.

There seems to be a common reference to adding lead at the front for ballast to put some weight on the front wheels and I figured that a bit more chassis would help that. If I am wrong then there could well be a chassis stretch in its future.

I will be testing the potential lemon in the UK on disused airfields and on Pendine Sands (there are a couple of annual events) - yes these will be low speed events with road gearing (ca. 100 - 150 mph) and initially running without body work so if there are handling / driving mistakes I can address them before investing time in the body - which will probably introduce other mistakes. Then run again locally.

After hundreds of hours reading build threads, and responses to my own questions and comments, it is clear that there are several areas that I need to commit to that fall into two very distinct camps and both camps are right as they have results to back up their designs. I don't and unfortunately somewhere along the way have to bite a bullet and build something.

I do sincerely appreciate the advise and the occasional debate it creates and will continue to chip away at the Lakester.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on November 09, 2018, 07:44:24 AM
Hey Sid:

Lump me in with Neil on the need for Ackerman in a lakester (probably other classes too but we are talking lakesters here). My first G lakester had zero Ackerman as have all other race cars I have had for road racing. Reducing rolling resistance was very important to me and some degree of Ackerman could have possibly aided in this. But straight line stability was more important. I decided to go with what had worked for my road racing cars and built in zero Ackerman and the car handled fine at speeds occationally over 230 mph. My new car has some Ackerman but only because my front wheel diameter is so small. Lastly, I see no downside to having some Ackerman but under wet or lose surface conditions, while having to steer the car a bit more than you like, it could degrade straight line stability by introducing toe-out. I keep an open mind on benefits of Ackerman for my car and would love to engage in an off line discussion on the subject.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on November 09, 2018, 02:18:44 PM
  All the above is interesting reading and since my car which started life as a lakester which we eventually converted to rear engine modified roadster has been successful on the salt in poor conditions and as of this year much better conditions some things learned relate to these surface conditions. When we went to the rigid front suspension and increased the wheel base now 141-7/8 inches to meet the class requirements I made sure Ackerman was considered {thanks to Sids guidance} when making the front axle steering arms.  Next big area of attention was the center of pressure and center of gravity for the car.  After many days working with the car on scales as it would sit at the starting line ready to make a pass the final CP/CG numbers were surprising front axle to rear axle weight in the car is close rear axle weight is only 150 pounds higher than the front.  Traction on the salt being a concern I was hesitant to run the car with the weight difference needed using the CP/CG calculations.  However on last years poor surface the car was sideways at 209 MPH and with very little effort easy to control it did not spin around Im sure if the CP/CG was not part of this build the car would have gone around in circles and who knows what else might have happened. On those poor conditions my son and I were able to get our Red hats.  My suggestion is to pay attention to the CP/CG do not be concerned with how much weight is on the front axle {your going to be adding a lot} locate the front axle where its safe and easier to fell where your going I would rethink its present location.
 Good luck.
    Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 12, 2018, 10:07:27 AM
Thanks RonnieRoadster. That is one quick flathead!

When you refer to the rigid front axle do you mean a hot rod gasser style tube axle instead of independent front suspension or do you mean no front suspension at all?

The front axle location is something that has kept me up at night for a very long time and I have introduced to the thread recently to solicit feedback. As a result of the comments I am reworking my brain a little and tweaking some of the decisions.

I will have a gasser style straight tube axle, 4 bars and coil overs activated by push rods. The steering will almost certainly be a slow rack attached to the axle and the column in a much flatter plane than originally conceived. To accommodate the column will necessitate moving the front axle forward 12- 18"  :-o

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on November 12, 2018, 02:23:01 PM
Thanks RonnieRoadster. That is one quick flathead!

When you refer to the rigid front axle do you mean a hot rod gasser style tube axle instead of independent front suspension or do you mean no front suspension at all?

The front axle location is something that has kept me up at night for a very long time and I have introduced to the thread recently to solicit feedback. As a result of the comments I am reworking my brain a little and tweaking some of the decisions.

I will have a gasser style straight tube axle, 4 bars and coil overs activated by push rods. The steering will almost certainly be a slow rack attached to the axle and the column in a much flatter plane than originally conceived. To accommodate the column will necessitate moving the front axle forward 12- 18"  :-o

John


   

   Hi John
     Oh the joy of building a race car from the ground up our brains will always be working overtime thinking the numerous steps needed.  Originally I had a suspension using an original Ford 1937 tube axle with the standard type Ford cross spring, hair pin radius rods and tube shocks overall identical to what i use on my Hot Rods. I wanted my race car to be a more traditional build so using the Ford design and parts worked well up to the 180 MPH range then i began to get crazy about going faster thus the front axle change. So part of the improvements on the race car we redesigned the front axle to a solid configuration no suspension at all I must add Sid was a big help in guiding me on the potential of the changes. I found whether running the car on the salt or the runways events held in our area the lack of front suspension was not an issue.  This allowed me to better balance the car with the room now available where the front spring and shock mounts were once located. Also an added bonus is the reduced amount of stuff hanging in the wind resulting in less frontal drag.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 15, 2018, 12:47:09 PM
Ron has been implementing some of my suggestions over the last three years that has given them a bunch more speed with no hp increase. I've been doing this for other salt racers for 30 years now with everything from door cars to streamliners with good results but my sound advice is just that, advise! What you do with it is totally up to you.
You can see so many race cars on the salt with poorly set up front ends & that can mean the difference between correcting it or crashing it if it gets a little out of shape & the biggest mistake is scrub radius, take a look next time you're there.
We run on a surface that is slick & usually rough so blacktop geometry is undesirable & if you find yourself going into turn one at Bonneville, you just became a passenger.
  Sid.
   
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 26, 2018, 07:56:36 AM
Thanks Sid, RR

I have ordered some parts to start the front axle. In consideration of the advise received I have made a slight design change - the front axle is moving forward. While still down the rabbit hole I explored some slightly wild ideas for the steering column to rack geometry but have settled on the axle relo. It solves a number of steering questions - it is so easy to get locked into a vision. That results in a 140 - 150" wheel base now - things like radiator location may affect the motor location hence the slightly vague dimension.

With the build underway a visit to SW 2019 will be much more informative than my 2017 trip - I am increasingly more aware of what I don't know but there is still a lot I don't know that I don't know.


Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 05, 2018, 12:15:01 PM
Thinking about the motor location (starting work rear of the firewall) I am pondering the radiator. Can anyone comment on radiator size, the pros and cons of the rad being in a water jacket or simply having fans blowing like crazy through a large rad. For a n/a 2 litre what would the rad size be - is there a reference anywhere to help with this?
Thanks
John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on December 05, 2018, 02:41:15 PM
Thinking about the motor location (starting work rear of the firewall) I am pondering the radiator. Can anyone comment on radiator size, the pros and cons of the rad being in a water jacket or simply having fans blowing like crazy through a large rad. For a n/a 2 litre what would the rad size be - is there a reference anywhere to help with this?
Thanks
John


   J ohm since I run a Flathead Ford which were notorious to overheating I found a large water tank worked perfectly to keep the block from getting to hot. I would be suprised you would need any type of radiator with the engine your going to run. many of us just use water tanks. My water tank is home made it fits perfectly in the tight confines of the area which is similar to your location behind the driver its 17 gallons capacity which also helps with the CP/CG measurements needed for a safe handling car at high speed. One of my learning curves was discovering the not round water tank will not handle pressure which in my application was not a problem once i discovered this little detail. I did consider a radiator in a tank idea but decided to just do the water tank it was a lot easier for me to fit the limited space i had available for the cooling system with the odd shaped tank i made. I dont use any fans since the space is limited theres no space for them however if i need to take heat out of the water i added two fitting to the tank so i can pump water out and return the water thats circulating in a coil of copper tubing which sits in ice waterin an old cooled this simple device drops the coolant temps nicely so we can run again if need be.
    Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 06, 2018, 10:32:10 AM
Thanks RR

I love the idea of an external tank cooling circuit. Do you take it below ambient temperature to take to the line?

I am assuming those are US gallons so if my math is right your water tank is potentially 24 inches by 13 inches x 13 inches or a combination thereof to ~ 4,000 cubic inches and therefore weighs 150 lbs. I guess if the car had an electric water pump switched via the engine temp it could draw from the resevior as required and won't raise that volume of water to boiling point in the few minutes of running(?). Is that why you run unpressurised or is that a flat head thing?

A friend has a V8 60 in a small '50s British classic / hotrod that had over heating problems - tried fans, tried shrouding and all sorts and in the end a bigger radiator core nailed it - even when towing the teardrop.

That would be a far greater volume of water than a rad in tank too - is there a risk of running too cold or does the engine thermostat take care of that  - I can imagine it cycling a little with that volume of water?
So it's 2 pints per :cheers: 68 times to make 136 pints in total (17 gallons - or do you run water in the tank - I guess you guys dont drink warm beer?)

John
UK - home of the ambient cellar temperature pint of 'real' ale
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on December 06, 2018, 09:32:58 PM
John the water temp is ambient when we run on the salt to keep the sun from heating the water we place a tarp over the body of the race car so theres no heat transfer. The electric water pumps i use are controlled by the driver. Prior  to the run I do warm up the engine a bit and once the run is completed i shut the engine off but i keep the water pumps on so theres no high temperature spike in the engine. No thermostats are used being a flathead i prefer flooding the block with as much water as possible to keep the temps down we have found its easy to crack these old blocks if things get to hot.  Overall the water tank shape follows the upper engine cover so the sides are arched in shape  as high as possible with a flat top for the filler and inlet/outlet for the external cooling system. The tank sides are a radius shape that follow the body which is an original aluminum air plane drop tank from WW2. The water tank is also shaped like the letter L with the lower leg of the L pointing forward this allowed me to utilize all the space possible for capacity. My rear firewall is not straight up and down it follows the angle of the drivers seat back and the lower roll cage support.  Now about running to cold most racers i talk to prefer a cool running engine i know my combination after a three mile run i usually see 180 degrees on the runways maybe 160.  The one item we do heat is the engine oil I use heater built into the oil pan to put heat in the oil prior to running
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 07, 2018, 03:36:19 AM
Brilliant, thank you.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: tauruck on December 07, 2018, 07:14:56 AM
John, without the knowledge present on this forum building any LSR project would be a nightmare.
I bet you're glad you joined?.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 07, 2018, 09:13:28 AM
I read everything on several build threads and searched several areas of concern before committing to the build. I have had a rule book since 2015 so a little slow to get started. The build started early this year and I have asked naive questions and had fantastic support on this forum. The best 1 day 23 hours 11 minutes I have invested in the project so far - that is certain.
John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on December 07, 2018, 09:26:21 AM
Hopefully you have been reading a lot of other build diaries and ingesting all the cooling information out there.  We never used a thermostat until we ran a Busa motor and in a rush, didn't take it out... our cooling improved dramatically... I strongly recommend running one.  In a lakester the best you can hope for is water in a tank that stays close to ambient before you run.  We warm up until the water out hose is hot and then let the motor heat soak. We have a 5 gallon water tank... so far it has been enough but we are close to needing more.... and yes, I think I'm leaving room for a couple more gallons in the future...
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on December 07, 2018, 02:21:30 PM
John,
One of the things I suggest for cooling systems is to use a 3 way thermostat. I suggest using the mid 80s BMW 320 I unit. I happen to have one in my hand right now and the MFG/PN is: Vernet V2020-71. The advantage of the 3 way configuration is that as the engine is warming up the water in the engine is constantly circulated through the engine until the thermostat temp is reached and then coolant from the cooling tank is allowed to flow to the engine. As opposed to a normal thermostat that simple restricts or stops any water from circulating through the engine until it opens at it's rated temp. Many (most?) of the standard 2 way thermostats have a small hole in them to allow some circulation until they open. I am a big supporter of using a thermostat as they give much better engine temp control than no thermostat or some type of orifice.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on December 07, 2018, 07:48:17 PM
I don't believe I've ever seen a production engine equipped with a mechanical pump that didn't have a bypass built into the system allowing coolant to circulate prior the thermostat opening allowing valve seat cooling during warm up & preventing pump cavitation. A thermostat (restriction) in the system allows the pump to create block pressure, not to be confused with cooling system pressure, to help the heat transfer from the engine to the fluid. This is why in many situations you will see an engine run hotter without a thermostat or restriction. Most heavy engines actually have two thermostats at different temps to cope with the extreme range of conditions. I have truckers ask me to remove the thermostats because they're running hot but that only makes the problem worse. It's simple enough to hook up a pressure gauge to the engine to check if the pump is making block pressure.
I believe the automotive three way thermostat is used in conjunction with a twin core radiator where it uses one section for cold climates & both for hot. The double pass radiator is a different animal again.
  Sid.   
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on December 07, 2018, 09:09:38 PM
Hopefully you have been reading a lot of other build diaries and ingesting all the cooling information out there.  We never used a thermostat until we ran a Busa motor and in a rush, didn't take it out... our cooling improved dramatically... I strongly recommend running one.  In a lakester the best you can hope for is water in a tank that stays close to ambient before you run.  We warm up until the water out hose is hot and then let the motor heat soak. We have a 5 gallon water tank... so far it has been enough but we are close to needing more.... and yes, I think I'm leaving room for a couple more gallons in the future...

Or maybe a radiator in your 5 gallon tank? We ran a pressurized ten gallon tank in the first lakester and always worried about over pressurizing that tank. This restricted pressure to 7 psi and would have liked to up that pressure to around 15 psi. This was accomplished in the new car with a radiator in the tank.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 10, 2018, 08:58:28 AM
Many thanks for the thoughts and explanations over the last few days. I have been searching the forum for other related threads and noodling - which doesnt get anything built but its surprising how much noodling can be achieved doing 5 hours canoe training each weekend. I get that time back aftert he race at Easter.

The Honda engine has coolant hoses and bypasses in all directions and that has been part of the 'joy' trying to work out the flow. The water pump has several takeoff points and the one to the rad incorporates the stat. I have now figured out that it has something that runs over to the oil filter - a by pass that flows back into (or out of) the block next to the oil filter. I dont know if that is a permanent circulation or just part of warm up to bring the oil to engine temp, or possibly a really crude cooler as engine oil runs hotter than engine water (I think?); I want to add an oil cooler rad - if nothing else to increase the volume and a bit of passive cooling.

The other rad connection (back of the inlet manifold) has a pipe that runs to the pump as well and I am assuming that is the 'block' circulation during warm up until the stat opens.

I am of a mind to remove the mechanical water pump and control the flow through the rad / tank solution with an engine temp sensor controller combo whilst retaining the stat as well. That idea might need a smaller pump to effect the cold start circulation as, without the mechanical pump that will not flow. Maybe a bypass pump that has a reverse relay on a temp sender - turn off at 80oC (or whatever the stat opening temp is) and let the main pump circulation kick in.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on December 10, 2018, 09:39:56 AM
Keep it simple.... you don't know it yet but you are running out of room to put stuff  :roll:
You are not running 500 miles.... well maybe over 10 years.... oil cooler not necessary
 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 10, 2018, 11:42:12 AM
Keep it simple.... you don't know it yet but you are running out of room to put stuff

Thank you. Your timing is perfect; this weekend I started to properly worry about room. It works beautifully in my head and sketched out but with everything bespoke some things just bite you when you look the other way for just a moment. Up to know I have been lalala about some of the reality rear of the firewall. I just mocked up some rearward chassis rails and ....... one looks suspiciously like it will run straight through the stock oil filter which will be messy when I fire her up so if I can lose the (proposed) sandwich plate for the oil cooler and only have the one for a remote oil filter takeoff you may have just solved two problems in one message which is most opportune.  :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: tauruck on December 10, 2018, 04:00:25 PM
Running out of room???????.
I don't know how the Belly Tank guys do it!!!!.
Lakester too!!!!.

You first look at your chassis and think "EASY".
My liner is near 40' and I am clearly out of space.
Packaging is the toughest part and like I was taught, Tack before, weld later. :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on December 10, 2018, 04:42:31 PM
John when I began building my race car using the drop tank as a body I realized I was now joining an elite group of builders who discovered the LESS is MORE theory.  That being LESS space available and lots MORE stuff to add. Oh the fun of it all plus many nights of lost sleep thinking where oh where to put everything.    :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: tauruck on December 10, 2018, 04:55:25 PM
John when I began building my race car using the drop tank as a body I realized I was now joining an elite group of builders who discovered the LESS is MORE theory.  That being LESS space available and lots MORE stuff to add. Oh the fun of it all plus many nights of lost sleep thinking where oh where to put everything.    :cheers:


And when you do sleep, Nightmares!!!!. :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on December 10, 2018, 05:24:59 PM
With engine electronics you'll need an alternator so include the stock water pump if you can, cheap & simple.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 12, 2018, 05:05:27 AM
Hi Sid
My thinking with the electric water pump and a controller was that the water could continue to circulate after the engine was shut down. I am assuming that several minutes at wide open throttle is a lot of heat sink and it could take some time for the circulating water to catch up with it.

Now that the water pump pulley is redundant (on paper at earlky stage), and there is potentialy two or three hp gained from the exercise, the next question would be; do you need an alternator and could you therefore save another one or two hp (data from the interweb so its probably dodgy). Each engine situation will differ but I guess you could reasonably say no belts and pulleys is worth a few ponies on a n/a 2 litre four cylinder.

The engine electrical requirements become a consideration - if I split them into three categories;
1. ECU / spark / injectors / sensors 2. Water and fuel pumps and 3. starting
then I would reasonably assume (and that is the trouble - for assume substitute the word guess) that;

1. could easily be dealt with with a moderate sized battery fully charged - I have no idea how much an ECU would draw over say 5 minutes for 4 injectors and 4 coils,
2. will require more amp minutes so a larger / second battery, and
3. from an umbilical off the push vehicle (or one of those booster packs the car dealers use) cross wired to battery 2. in case of a stall.

All this assumes two batteries will fit and an easily accessbible takeoff point for charging; solar would be readily available with a gennie / battery charger if quick turnaround is required.

The most obvious counter arguement is complication and the need for charging is a pain so a secondary water pump to support engine circulation after shut down using the primary water pump and alternator is much simpler.

Counter arguements (or support for the total loss electrics approach) gratefuly received before I commit to engine water pump surgery.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: RidgeRunner on December 12, 2018, 06:44:35 AM
     No expert here, to which anybody who has seen my pit performances can attest :-D  That said, here's my 2 cents:

     Quick shut downs on engines that have been running full speed under load can lead to internal engine hot spots potentially leading to longer term issues.  Metal, especially aluminum, likes to move with temperature changes and doesn't always expand or contract at the same rate in all places at once or always return to the same exact dimensions when the cycle(s) is(are) completed.  One of the reasons we put an electric water pump on my buddy's lakester was for a more gradual cool down to help prevent that just in case.

      Electronics, especially ECU's and injectors, like a constant full voltage for efficient operation.  I know some seem to sneak by with constant loss systems but we run an alternator, feel the small loss in driving HP is well worth the increased efficiency in component operation which also leads to easier and more consistent system calibration and tuning.

                   Ed
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on December 12, 2018, 09:58:17 AM
I would keep it as simple as possible...  If you want water circulation after shutdown then you will need an electric pump... we do not do a "hot chop shutdown" any more... we used to to make plug reading viable, but that came with a lot of other problems.  The very small valve stems used on 4 valve engines tend to wilt a little making compression and leak down checks fail... yes they straighten when they warm up so the failures move from cylinder to cylinder.  We let the motor idle until the car rolls to a stop.  Keep the water pump.

Total loss electric... we used to do that too... but a lot of ECUs require a minimum of 12v to operate.  Making strong spark at sustained high RPMs uses more power than you think.  Keep the alternator.
My current ECU keeps track of voltage in... the Hayabusa alternator does not keep up... I think the algorithm in the regulator turns output down at higher RPM... something I will be investigating.  But back to you... 2 large batteries take up a lot of room... I already mentioned you don't have a much of that as you think a 20 ft car would.  Start looking at the volume you need for systems....
Don't overly complicate your already complicated endeavor  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on December 12, 2018, 10:05:14 AM
Stainless;

I've wondered about this for a while... a total loss electric system usually loses voltage as current is drained from the battery but that doesn't have to happen. If a buck/boost regulator is inserted into the line from the battery it will maintain 12V output until the battery is totally exhausted. In fact, you could adjust its output to be 12V, 14V, 16V, or whatever you wanted. Has anyone ever used one?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 12, 2018, 10:27:18 AM
Thanks guys, as always I am enjoying the discussion - its always educational. I think driving the alternator off the propshaft is quite common on race cars - it therefore runs at lower revs so it continues to produce an output - doesnt work sitting idling on the start line though.....

To be hoenst, at this stage, I can probably house an extra battery easier (add length) than I can fit the alternator (add width) but its early days.

I am starting to wonder if 40' Liners are more about packaging than aero (which was my naive observer assumption) .....

 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: fordboy628 on December 12, 2018, 10:34:29 AM

Now that the water pump pulley is redundant (on paper at earlky stage), and there is potentialy two or three hp gained from the exercise, the next question would be; do you need an alternator and could you therefore save another one or two hp (data from the interweb so its probably dodgy). Each engine situation will differ but I guess you could reasonably say no belts and pulleys is worth a few ponies on a n/a 2 litre four cylinder.

Counter arguements (or support for the total loss electrics approach) gratefuly received before I commit to engine water pump surgery.

John

Some "real world" numbers for your consideration, all verified by dyno testing:

A/   On the Milwaukee Midget 999 cc BMC "Grenade" the change to a gilmer belt driven under drive system from the stock based overdrive setup netted ~ 1.5 bhp, rpm range was 5500 rpm to 9000 rpm (planned, exceeded by driver  :roll:)

2/   Again on the MM Grenade, change to an electric pump netted ~ 2.3 bhp over previous best, same rpm range.

d/   On 7000 rpm to 10,000 rpm Cosworth BDD F/Atlantic engines, a 30% under drive Vs crank speed water pump drive netted ~ 2.8 bhp.   The engine was originally run to only 8500/8800 rpm.

Cheers,
Fordboy
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: fordboy628 on December 12, 2018, 10:41:18 AM
Stainless;

I've wondered about this for a while... a total loss electric system usually loses voltage as current is drained from the battery but that doesn't have to happen. If a buck/boost regulator is inserted into the line from the battery it will maintain 12V output until the battery is totally exhausted. In fact, you could adjust its output to be 12V, 14V, 16V, or whatever you wanted. Has anyone ever used one?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

On the new powerplant for the Milwaukee Midget, the decision has been made to go with a 15/16 volt battery, regulated, on a total loss system.    Will need to be charged on the line & between runs.    I'm sure it is posted on the Build Diary.   No doubt there will be commentary on how well it works out.   It does have room for an alternator though in case of a problem . . . . .    :|

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on December 12, 2018, 12:16:44 PM
The end goal is to not lose voltage so there's many ways to do that including capacitors. If you're worried about 1.5 hp loss with an alternator, a screw head in the wrong place on the body skin will suck up that much.
The Davies-Craig water pump from Aus has been around for years & comes with a controller.
I have two Meziere pumps on the KB.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on December 12, 2018, 01:30:51 PM
Sid, you couldn't fit a capacitor big enough to make a difference into a 40 ft streamliner. Not enough energy storage in a capacitor.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on December 12, 2018, 03:13:31 PM
Sid, you couldn't fit a capacitor big enough to make a difference into a 40 ft streamliner. Not enough energy storage in a capacitor.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ




 Using a set of capacitors that are actuated near the end of the run will work perfectly on a total loss system its been done many times.
     John to save on the HP drain on my Flathead Ford V-8 combination the only item the crankshaft turns on the front of the engine is the blower belt. For cooling I run two electric water pumps the other 12 volt main power items include ignition system fuel pump and data which gives me voltage readings during the run typical mumbers 12.2 to 12.4 nearing mile three.  To power two other pumps i use for the intercooler and crankcase i use two small alarm batteries their combined size and weight is less than the Optima main battery. Charging the main battery before the run is simple. To charge the two alarm battery's a simple trickle charger works perfectly. With this simple system we experienced no issues running  three miles on the salt. After the run we shut down the engine but keep the water pumps running to protect against that heat surge. I recently became aware of the capacitor use ideas that others have done since my car is long coarse qualified its something Im looking at if i plan on running past mile three.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on December 12, 2018, 04:59:47 PM
RR;

To power an electric fuel pump and a CD ignition you'll need about 10 amps or more. This is going to require a very large capacitor to supply enough energy even for the last 15 or 20 seconds- a kiloJoule or more. A Supercapacitor can supply significant energy but they are not cheap. A boost/buck regulator is a far better approach- it maintains its output at 12V (or whatever you adjust it to) even if the battery starts out at 12.7V and  discharges down to 8V.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on December 12, 2018, 08:03:20 PM
RR;

To power an electric fuel pump and a CD ignition you'll need about 10 amps or more. This is going to require a very large capacitor to supply enough energy even for the last 15 or 20 seconds- a kiloJoule or more. A Supercapacitor can supply significant energy but they are not cheap. A boost/buck regulator is a far better approach- it maintains its output at 12V (or whatever you adjust it to) even if the battery starts out at 12.7V and  discharges down to 8V.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


 Interesting info Neil Thanks i will look into the boost/buck regulator still more to learn thats what makes me enjoy all of this.
     Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 13, 2018, 08:56:38 AM
I understand the boost part of the name but for the life of me can't figure out the derivation for buck. Up to 24 hours ago I didnt even know such a thing existed. The list of what I know I dont know gets longer and longer.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 13, 2018, 09:40:58 AM
A boost/buck unit will provide output voltage and CURRENT based on what the powered device needs.  BUT:  to boost it needs to add to the energy being supplied by drawing extra from the source.

If you need 144 watts (14.4V/10amps) and the supply voltage is 12V -- no problem, the B/B will draw extra from the source, use that surplus to add to the source 12V and give you what you want.  It will use extra energy - like drawing 200 watts from the source to be able to deliver the rated output.

TAANSTAFL! :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: salt27 on December 13, 2018, 09:51:32 AM
I understand the boost part of the name but for the life of me can't figure out the derivation for buck. Up to 24 hours ago I didnt even know such a thing existed. The list of what I know I dont know gets longer and longer.

Boost is the step up

Buck is the step down
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on December 13, 2018, 04:56:07 PM
I understand the boost part of the name but for the life of me can't figure out the derivation for buck. Up to 24 hours ago I didnt even know such a thing existed. The list of what I know I dont know gets longer and longer.

Boost is the step up

Buck is the step down

Succinctly stated! Thank you.   The idea behind it is that you can adjust its output to be higher than its input voltage or lower than its input voltage.

I used one to step up the 12V electrical system in a car that I had to 28V to actuate the solenoid on an air horn from a 2 1/2 ton GI truck. Small, fast cars need big, loud horns!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 20, 2018, 11:17:00 AM
Thanks guys - I now visualise a buck / boost is an electronic box that contains an ohms law triangle and one of the variables can be fixed - the others adjust as required.

Having sparked  :-D that debate I subsequently got the engine quite close to its final location on the lower chassis rails and plonked the alternator, water pump pulley and etc. back on it (header and throttle bodies stripped as they wil be replaced). I have adjusted the engine height from the original sketches and I gain room - I will not abandon the pump / alternator for now - it will be less fabrication if its mostly oem too but I reserve the right to revert to total loss.

The ITBs are on order and the head work has begun - perhaps prematurely but when funds allow ......
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: tauruck on December 20, 2018, 11:19:00 AM
You're really on it now.

Nice going. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on December 20, 2018, 01:37:09 PM
Seeing how so much is hanging off the left side of your engine if it was me I would begin what I call the prototype process.  First I would relocate the alternator lower making the needed mounting points from aluminum flat stock. Next I would rethink the water pump and related outlets especially so those outlets do not point directly into the body location.  Keeping everything inside the shape of the body would be priority number one so that usually means lost sleep thinking how to relocate and eliminate those troubling areas. Since your building a race car that falls into the special construction category of the rule book theres no set rules on how to do these details allowing you the builder the freedom to design whats needed. For me thats the best part of building a LSR car from scratch.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 21, 2018, 07:30:28 AM
Ronnie

What you describe is exactly what I thought I was up against which is one of the reasons I was noodling about total loss electrics and I admit the thought of free horses was compelling but as Sid stated I might as well be chasing unicorns (okay, I paraphrased him) as there will be losses elsewhere.

I was in fact making assumptions ahead of the engine install based on some obviously bad measurements I had made and sketched from. I had convinced myself there was not enough room.  The roll structure has three levels of main longitudinal tube - one above the shoulders, one at hip and the other narrower set about 6" off the floor. Any of those can be extended rearwards as the 'main' rails and I had convinced myself the middle / hip line was the right height - moving down to the lowest ones solved a bunch of packaging problems at a stroke.

What I did not explain regarding the pics is that the yellow spirit level is in fact the future body line at the alternator at its widest point with no bulges - the picture perspective doesnt make that obvious. The water outlet pointing straight at the body was also in my head when thinking about going electric pump. In fact I can get a 90 degree water tube in the available space no problem.

What I now need to figure out is the water tank as that will essentially occlude the firewall and gear shift rod, wires and brake hoses and etc need to pass through, over or under that tank.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on December 21, 2018, 04:58:25 PM
 John in my car anything needing to run rearward is located in the plane of the 1-5/8 inch size frame rails all the wiring, shift cable, two parachute cables, brake line, oil line etc i use both sides of the frame to accomplish getting all this rearward.  The water tank has nothing running below or above all items run along side the tank I designed the tank so its contoured to fit in the space between the frame rails and the firewall shape it sits just above the floor pan on thin rubber strips the top is shaped like the top of the body so no space is unused allowing the water tank to be as large as possible. I run an auto trans so shifting is accomplished by cable. Your shifting by way of rods will create a bit more engineering but i bet the rod location can be in the plane of the frame rails tubes.
  Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 03, 2019, 08:51:56 AM
I have made up the engine and trans mounts (solid) and located the engine in the correct lateral plane. The mounts are tacked to the chassis rails so I can adjust fore and aft. For now I have given myself sufficient longitudinal space for a 52 litre (13 US gal) water tank. Any comments on prop shaft length - I was thinking 12" should be plenty?

After the discussion of total loss electrics, and determining I have the room, I took a proper look at the OEM alternator (which had been removed and flung in a cabinet).
It has a 4 pin connector (plus the big battery cable). You have to be kidding me; it turns out the stock ECU manages the switching somehow but I will be using an aftermarket ECU - from the replica Lotus 7 community that use this engine I have some direction - one pin is 12v in to excite the beast and one is an output to the dash charging light, ignore the other two - I need a wiring diagram for the donor car! I am more used to a 12 volt supply from ignition via the dash light to the alternator with the alt. earthing that circuit until it is charging and then isolating the earth, effectivelly turning the dash lamp off. I may be describing that badly but thats how I uderstand it and if I wire a single alt. that way it works.

I guess a larger dia. pulley will slow it down a tad and be more useful in the target rev range, but will that cause problems idling on the line - one step forward, two back and trip over your shoe laces - this bespoke stuff is harder than it looks, which is why we enjoy it I guess.  :lol:

The flywheel / clutch scattershield is in my near future.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 03, 2019, 10:52:07 AM
I read an article about the 2018 Americas Most Beautiful Roadster winner and it is set up for go (as well as show) with a solid front axle and reference to a Steve Moal axle locator which, if I read it correctly, is a sliding block affair a la Alfa, Lancia and etc.

It is exactly what I had in mind and commented on previously but I cant find a pic of it on the interweb - just a reference to Steve Moal custom coachworks who do sell some lovely parts but nothing obviously suspension related.

Anyone have a pic?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 03, 2019, 12:39:21 PM
Does the S2000 have a counter rotation balance shaft? If not you may want to make the engine mounts have some compliance. 4 bangers (without balance shafts) vibrate a lot and can fail solid motor mounts.

Your build is looking great.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 03, 2019, 01:23:47 PM
I have made up the engine and trans mounts (solid) and located the engine in the correct lateral plane. The mounts are tacked to the chassis rails so I can adjust fore and aft. For now I have given myself sufficient longitudinal space for a 52 litre (13 US gal) water tank. Any comments on prop shaft length - I was thinking 12" should be plenty?

After the discussion of total loss electrics, and determining I have the room, I took a proper look at the OEM alternator (which had been removed and flung in a cabinet).
It has a 4 pin connector (plus the big battery cable). You have to be kidding me; it turns out the stock ECU manages the switching somehow but I will be using an aftermarket ECU - from the replica Lotus 7 community that use this engine I have some direction - one pin is 12v in to excite the beast and one is an output to the dash charging light, ignore the other two - I need a wiring diagram for the donor car! I am more used to a 12 volt supply from ignition via the dash light to the alternator with the alt. earthing that circuit until it is charging and then isolating the earth, effectivelly turning the dash lamp off. I may be describing that badly but thats how I uderstand it and if I wire a single alt. that way it works.

I guess a larger dia. pulley will slow it down a tad and be more useful in the target rev range, but will that cause problems idling on the line - one step forward, two back and trip over your shoe laces - this bespoke stuff is harder than it looks, which is why we enjoy it I guess.  :lol:

The flywheel / clutch scattershield is in my near future.


Mate, your cage gussets need to be on the outside of the tubing with an open corner, not in the middle of the tube as you have them.
Your alternator is internally regulated so all you need is a 12v wire to the field terminal to excite it.
Hillbilly alternator test when it's not mounted to anything. = stick it in the vice, hook it up to a battery, spin it with a drill, put power to the field pin & you will feel it load up. They will work in either direction if you need to turn it around due to mounting restrictions but the cooling fan will be running backwards.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 04, 2019, 03:05:17 AM
Sid, thanks for the catch - the gussets are only tacked. Hillbilly field test - I love it but .... have you been living in the sticks too long?  :-D

Rex, will look into the motors inherent balance but I am tight in places on clearance and would like to tie it all together.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 04, 2019, 07:12:35 PM
I could never live in the sticks too long Mate, I luv it out here. :mrgreen: I'm a mobile mechanic on equipment & long haul trucks & that's a Kiwi hillbilly alternator test I came up with years ago. Spin it, stab it & see what happens. :lol:
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 04, 2019, 09:35:18 PM
 :cheers:"Spin it, stab it & see what happens" sounds like a plan :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: tauruck on January 05, 2019, 05:11:21 PM
I took Sid's advice on many things and he hasn't been wrong yet. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 08, 2019, 11:06:18 AM
I have modelled a more structural upright between the dash hoop and the lower chassis structure and mocked up an instrument binnacle to make sure I could still get in and out.

I am still working out the details of the revised steering column and etc. but I cannot get a small rack and wonder if anyone knows where one might lurk. I had settled on a 20:1 Stiletto but .......

The reply to my infrequent status emails, over the last 5 or 6 months is always the same: ProWerks have retooled the Stiletto production and are making parts before they do any assembly but that has been going on far too long now to make sense - if you have it retooled why wouldnt you start building in batches to start recouping costs - I would have at least expected a delivery date, even if it was future looking. The same status on their spindles but I am not pursueing those - does anyone know whats actually going on there?

Strange list a 12:1 rack but, based on my research on the LSR Forum thats probably a might quick.  I am aware folks use a steering quickener in reverse but access to some of those things is difficult out here in the old country. Are there any alternatives in the 15:1 - 20:1 that are appropriate?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 08, 2019, 12:50:53 PM
Jeez that's a huge chunk of iron you have there Mate! It looks like you have enough structure up top to mount the steering & eliminate that.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on January 08, 2019, 04:46:48 PM
I agree with Sid if you eliminate the downward support you have a lot more area for your legs which when trying to exit a car like this need to get into a Z configuration. Similar issues I deal with when exiting my race car.  Suggestion for a steering rack I use one made by Unisteer they make them for street rod applications mine was custom built for the car to dimensions I sent for arm length. A simple unit designed with a straight input shaft the cost is reasonable.   A good source for help for the rack is Delaware Chassis Works 772-210-2713 Joe Timney is well versed in what we need joetimney@gmail.com.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on January 08, 2019, 06:23:08 PM
John, if you have any dirt track racers near you, they use steering reduction devices (quickeners in reverse) and may have a few spares they would let go of.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 09, 2019, 04:49:21 AM
Your are not wrong Sid. It is an unfortunate size but it will serve another purpose that will become obvious later on in the song, or, like most things on this build, since it is only version 2 of this area it will more than likely evolve further. Nothing is final until everything is final - I am getting better at simply tack welding and moving on. Fewer regrets. I have also gotten to the point where a bracket is simply drilled and rough cut but not finished until it is proven to be right - that has saved some angst when it turned out not to work as expected - less rework.

I can still get in and out without interference (no different from that structure being absent) as the way I do slide in and out relies more on the edges than the centre space. It certainly prvides a sense of security  :-D Getting out does require good core strength though.

I will follow up with unisteer / Delaware chassis works, thanks for the tip RR.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on January 09, 2019, 07:30:14 AM
If I had that post between my legs I think I'd double up on my belt mounts.  :roll:  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 09, 2019, 02:43:19 PM
John,
I have a Mark Williams 30101 rack, 10 inches long, 6 inches of travel in 2.25 turns so that is 2.66 turns per inch of travel. No idea what the ratio is. Takes 3/8 rod ends. You can make the steering arms on the spindles longer which will slow things down also.  $100 + shipping and it is yours.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 10, 2019, 05:41:02 AM
Rex, I will mail you directly.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

I think you are my new best friend but dont worry, I wont stalk you, much.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on January 10, 2019, 10:43:19 AM
John,
I have a Mark Williams 30101 rack, 10 inches long, 6 inches of travel in 2.25 turns so that is 2.66 turns per inch of travel. No idea what the ratio is. Takes 3/8 rod ends. You can make the steering arms on the spindles longer which will slow things down also.  $100 + shipping and it is yours.

Rex

Hey Rex...I am math challenged, but isn't that closer to 2.66 inches per turn....  :?  :|
 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 10, 2019, 11:11:57 AM
I didnt spot that.

Imagine I am crossmultiplying here:

6 inches in 2.25 turns
x inches in 1 turn

1 * 6 / 2.25 * x = 2.66 inches.

And therefore:
2.66 inches in 1 turn or 360 degrees
x inches in 15 degrees (for example)

15 * 2.66 / 360 * x = 0.11 inches, and therefore 30 degrees one way from the straight ahead gives only 0.22" of rack travel  :?

 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on January 10, 2019, 11:28:55 AM
John, while you were typing I measured our center load rack.  It has a total of about 2 inches of travel... yep it has been modified... and turns 270 degrees stop to stop.... with our 2:1 reducer we get about 1 inch in 270 degrees of wheel movement

Edit... just did the other math and both racks move the same...
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 10, 2019, 06:16:32 PM
I meant to say 2.66 inches of travel PER turn. Can't sneak any thing past on this site.


Thanks for catching that!

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on January 10, 2019, 06:21:25 PM
Lexdysia  is everywhere.   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 17, 2019, 08:50:57 AM
Scatter shield - tacked.

In the event that Mr Newtons Laws get involved with the unexpected failure of my flywheel or clutch does the propsed 1/4" steel 360 degree shield look appropriate (assuming a proper welder filled in the gaps)?

I am not sure if it needs to close in more at the rear where the bellhousing dips away from the steel bits or whether simply stopping them fly out laterally is required?

The rear face of the clutch pressure plate is approx. 2.5" as measured from the back of the engine block; the shield is nearly 5" in total distance from the back of the engine block.

 :cheers:

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 17, 2019, 08:52:49 AM
Sorry - these photos are right way up in my computer but seem to default to the orientation that the camera had when posted on the forum. Its good neck strengthening exerise looking at them, I guess.  :|
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on January 17, 2019, 09:43:06 AM
The purpose of the scatter shield is prevent injury from exploding parts... so welding everything is necessary... you are one of the folks it is protecting.  Email the pics to the SCTA special construction chair and ask if it is sufficient. 

To keep pics orientated run them through a program like paint and save them.... that is what I just did.  I did not rotate or anything else... just resaved them....
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: QikNip on January 17, 2019, 09:48:32 AM
Here's my take on rule 3.0 (not to mention self-preservation) … The scatter shield needs to be capable of containing all the loose parts of a total clutch disintegration. Given the nearly endless possibilities of the directions those parts can fly on the first, second (or "umptienth") bounce, I believe a properly designed shield is one that prevents any of them escaping. Mine totally encloses the bell housing from engine block to transmission flange. Can't be sure looking at the pictures here is that's what you have, but I'll leave that evaluation up to your capable scrutiny!  :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 17, 2019, 10:22:01 AM
Thanks both.

I will get them fully welded once I know what I have built is suitable - pics are with Tech but was wondering what the collective would note too.

Stainless - pics were 'righted' in the folder but not using secondary software - I will do that next time.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stan Back on January 17, 2019, 10:38:24 AM
It looks to me that things could still be ricocheting around in what looks to be the rear of the bellhousing before the transmission.

(A hundred years ago, we made a 180º "legal" bellhousing shield on our drag roadster.  The clutch left the premises and took out the aluminum trans adapter, dropped the engine with headers down on the drag link and steered the car off the strip into the weeds.  Things happen.)
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Interested Observer on January 17, 2019, 01:46:17 PM
Will there be fuel/electrical/hot water etc. lines running on the non-shielded side?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stan Back on January 17, 2019, 04:39:05 PM
Well – I was talking about the unshielded part back to the transmission flange.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: bearingburner on January 17, 2019, 05:48:36 PM
Make sure you can get it apart easily to expect or change clutch, transmission, engine. Run any lines in separate 1/4" tubing shields.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 18, 2019, 08:39:11 AM
Stan and others - points noted, thank you - thats why I like the opportunity afforded by this Forum - it is so easy to see a solution and make assumptions.
The gearbox is actually rather odd - it looks like it has a really long bellhousing but in fact there is some gearbox gubbins forward of what looks like the start of the transmission case ring of bolts and gasket cement within the bell housing space.

With that said I will more thoroughly consider the possibility of bits of flywheel whizzing around in other than lateral directions and see if they could sneak out; given the inertia involved 'sneak' might be slightly understated.

At this stage the shield can be slid off rearwards but I am aware some are made in two parts so they can be taken off easily and if there is sme infill in places that might require a different disassembly approach. That is a serious consideration and one of the reasons it is only tacked. I have never needed one before so its new and exciting; if cutting 1/4" steel into odd shapes whilst considering the effect of random bits letting go can be considered exciting.

I just received an email that the new ITBs shipped today; proper excitiment - new parts.  8-)
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 18, 2019, 11:42:59 PM
Per the rule book & the brain book of logic, don't use a cast iron flywheel & you shouldn't have anything trying to leave.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Jack Gifford on January 21, 2019, 07:05:19 PM
A little that I learned from SFI-required clutch cans in my blown-alky puller-

Round shape best contains any clutch remnants, especially those still rotating with the crank. A major enhancement was the required addition of a 1/8" chrome-moly liner- which can spin within the can after shearing a small 1/4" bolt. The point of all this is to avoid the bellhousing and/or frame being "sawed in two".

As for access- a Lakewood style inspection cover (nominal 4"x8" oval on the top side of the tapered section) is safe (bolted every 2") and doesn't compromise the smooth inside of the can (extra 1/4" piece welded to the cover's inside). This provides plenty of room to inspect everything, change clutch weights, etc.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 22, 2019, 02:58:23 AM
Sid, Jack

I am hoping that an OEM flywheel and clutch that was behind a vehicle with a 9k red line and a 3 year warranty will be 'happy' but I cant find the 'crossing your fingers' section in the rule book  :-D All of the experience / inputs are helping me build a better / safer Lakester.

This pretty part was shipped to my office - not a lot of work done for half an hour with this on my desk.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 22, 2019, 06:18:00 AM
That sucks Mate! Pun intended. :-D
I'm building 1" spacers out of composite to go under the intake manifold right now but I'm not getting very much done, work keeps getting in the way. Here it is 5am & I just got home from another breakdown out in Wyoming.
I'll sleep till midday & start again.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 23, 2019, 05:00:10 AM
Hi Sid

I used to work shift and on-call at Palmy hospital (labs) when I was training but for me it was simply stagger out of bed, jump in the taxis they sent and run assays on autopilot, stagger out, fall into a taxis, get home, kick the cat (metaphorically) if it was the third or fourth that night, go to bed.

I suspect your call-outs involve a road trip from time to time so you have my admiration; that is one tough gig.

John

Oh: instrument pod is a work in progress (its fibreglass over mdf) but here is another pretty bit (beauty being in the eye of the builder and all that). yes, I nknow, I should be building suspension and finishing the chassis rear of the firewall but a little detour to finish something that makes it look like a vehicle is encouraging.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 23, 2019, 10:47:42 AM
Wyoming jobs can be a bit of a drive, Jackson Hole is three hours in good weather & you've gotta be tough to do road service here in the winter.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on January 23, 2019, 11:12:27 AM
Sid, be glad you are not a Park Ranger in the Wind River Range this time of year!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on January 23, 2019, 11:26:31 AM
30 years ago I lived about 10 miles from where Sid lives. It's one cold sumbitch.  :-P
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 23, 2019, 01:34:34 PM
But its called Hot Springs. Surely that is a warm place?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on January 23, 2019, 02:48:21 PM
Sooner or later you have to get out of the water.  :roll:  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 01, 2019, 02:30:40 AM
Slow progress on the scattershield - visiting family in NZ and an offsite meeting for work have taken me away from home for a few weeks. Eight hours a weekend on the river and canal training for the Easter race doesn't leave much time either.

Having taken on board the scary image of 'bits' pinging about (thanks Sid, not sure if it was that or the cheese giving me nightmares) I have the shield extending beyond the front face of the gear sack and closed it down to just a few mm all round front and rear.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on March 03, 2019, 12:07:56 PM
Scatter is an appropriate word Mate! :-D Grenade is another word that fits.
So, the long white cloud's still there?
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on March 03, 2019, 02:16:58 PM
Nice looking shield! Now the real test is making sure that the welding is absolutely first rate. Grind away all rolling slag on the plates, clean, degrease and probably needs to be a multi pass weld and you may want to do an inside pass also. Again looking good!!

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 04, 2019, 03:31:09 AM
Sid re Aoteoroa. The land was there but not a single cloud in two weeks. Auckland, Hamilton, Tauranga and Nelson. Given that we were with family and not some resort with air con, a pool and a bar it was tough going from the UK winter to 30 degree (C) plus heat - not so much a holiday as an exercise in tolerance.

Rex  :cheers:  all safety related elements are going to be finished by pro welder persons and the blast shield should finally be off to them this week. The physical evidence of my welding rarely matches my expectations; there seems to be a lot of art involved and I did biochemistry and microbiology - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

I experimented with the open area around the clutch slave cylinder and have opted for something that bolts in place to close it out. One experient resulted in the lower half of the shield being, er, unremoveable. I think the entire shield should be painted some bright safety colour considering how long the bothersome thing has taken me. Having said that; if it never gets tested I won't be disappointed.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 04, 2019, 09:34:13 AM
A fish plate lap welded to the outside of the box across each butt weld would give a lot of added energy absorption strength.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 04, 2019, 09:41:44 AM
Those ruddy great gaps between plates in the pictures are actually V notches rather than really poor alignment. A couple of the guys at my local engineering firm (steel, welding, crane services etc.) have built and raced cars in various forms so I assume they will understnd what is needed.

Fish plates noted - I am assuming the reference is an engineering one and not to my design smelling of aquatic creatures  :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on March 04, 2019, 09:55:41 AM
You've put a lot more attention to detail into this than I've seen on most other home built shields Mate! Yagunna (one word) have them weld it while is still bolted up?
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 04, 2019, 09:00:58 PM
A fish plate is shown on the attached scientific type drawing.  They are used a lot for adding strength to beam and girder splices, pipe joints, and other highway and bridge maintenance repairs.  They work good for other things, too.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on March 04, 2019, 11:25:07 PM
I think that would be over kill & it would sure ugly the $hit out of it!
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 05, 2019, 02:39:52 AM
The two halves are bolted together and off to the welders today.

I will explain the functional requirments (like not distorting and containing schrapnel) and see what they say about finishing it.

My 'engineering' doesn't need any help in the ugly department  :-D

Thanks again for the feedback and input.
I have decided to paint it safety yellow along with things like the prop shaft hoop - it will make them easier to scrute in the crowded confines.  :cheers:

Next job .....
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on March 05, 2019, 08:12:20 PM
The two halves are bolted together and off to the welders today.

I will explain the functional requirments (like not distorting and containing schrapnel) and see what they say about finishing it.

My 'engineering' doesn't need any help in the ugly department  :-D

Thanks again for the feedback and input.
I have decided to paint it safety yellow along with things like the prop shaft hoop - it will make them easier to scrute in the crowded confines.  :cheers:

Next job .....













   Well one problem we have at times relates to telling a vendor were going to race this thing and would like you to do the welding so its safe. Vendor says im not going to do it now as the fear of liability sets in!  So we just do it ourselfs more back yard Hotrodding. I like the safety yellow idea the tech inspector will see the shield easily.  If your heading to Speedweek stop by our pit and say hi.     :cheers:
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 06, 2019, 06:00:50 AM
RR: I am lucky in the UK - litigation hasn't taken hold (much). We had ambulance chasing injury lawyer ads for a while but clearly the uptake wasn't great - most have disappeared.

I will be at SW2019 - all booked and ready to go.

Update on the grenade shield - it was welded up same day.
I will be thoroughly peeved if my clutch or flywheel try and recreate the big bang as that might hurt my nice shield. It weighs 35 lb (16 kg in new money) which is a lot of steel and weld but the box does have a lot of bellhousing to cover.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: handyguy on March 06, 2019, 07:46:37 AM
I hope to check this awesome build in inspection at the SALT ..  STEVE
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 06, 2019, 08:29:17 AM
Thanks Steve.
I am coming to SW2019 with hand luggage only. Someone has kindly let me crew with them all week this year (i.e. make the tea) so that I can go from super rookie to just rookie by experiencing tech, start procedures, record runs and etc. from the inside so to speak.

I doubt the car will make SW2020 but definately shooting for SW2021.

I am hoping to run it next year with street gearing on Pendine Sands in Wales and on disused runways at speed events in the UK to shake things down.

My proposal is to initially run with no bodywork to sort mechanical gremlins, sneaking up from slow speeds to test handling and then with body work on to see if aero (at lowish 3 figure speeds) comes into play - i.e. a tendency to fly or burrow compared to being naked. Not me though - I will be wearing the most expensive suit I have ever bought in my life - heck - I hired the one I got married in so this is way more serious (don't tell my steering committee I said that)!
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 06, 2019, 10:11:50 AM
This is how the fish plate does its job.  Something banks into the blast shield having weight and speed.  The shield suddenly decelerates it with massive energy transfer from the moving piece to the static shield.  The shield is very good at resisting this without rupture if there are no defects in the metal.  Stress concentrates at a defect and this is the weak point where it will break.  Once the break occurs the stresses are concentrated at the end of the tear and it takes relatively little energy to rip the metal apart.

Welds are assumed to have some sort of imperfections and they are linear.  Butt welds are the worst for this.  This is the perfect place for stress concentration and tearing.  The fish plate makes the tear go from a butt to a lap joint, makes the tear turn 90 degrees, and increases the length of the tear path.  This greatly increases the amount of energy the shield can absorb before it comes apart.

A lot of folks do not know this.  Ugly is a matter of perspective.  These plates look good to the welder who considers liability for the work and an inspector that knows about metallurgy and engineering. 

 
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 08, 2019, 02:55:31 AM
Next steps - some rookie questions;

Rule 3.I
Regarding fuel lines / clutch flywheel / run through heavy steel tubing got me over thinking that area.
Did I miss that in the rule book?
What about extinguisher bottles that I had planned to mount alongside the transmission? I guess if they are pierced that kindoff sorts out any fire risk from the explosion anyway and the discharge is quicker than the any driver reaction time; bangsquirt  :-o

Rule 3.J
One of the next jobs is finishing the throttle cable at the ITB end (as the cable run needs to be sorted so other items to be added accommodate it). My ITBs have return springs on the external spindle, one per ITB so thats 4 return springs pulling them closed - these springs are wrapped around the spindle shaft (rather than a linear pull along the line of the throttle cable). Does anyone know if that setup is acceptable or do I still need to add two throttle cable linkage springs? I ask because if thats a yes the cable mount needs to accommodate them. I also need to configure a positive stop somewhere - is doing that at the pedal end a better option?

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 08, 2019, 08:59:04 AM
I had a very productive lunch break - just starting to think about what the circuit needs are. This is what going in to the office everyday is all about right - Lakester planning and design.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on March 08, 2019, 09:12:00 AM
Throttle springs... the throttle needs to snap shut.... we have an additional spring and the stop on the pedal... even though the TB has a stop and springs... so the throttle is hard to press and snaps shut.

If a Fuel line runs next to your clutch and flywheel then run it through a steel tube... left over cage material works for that.  No rules regarding fire bottles, but if they are in an area that is really hot they could go off.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on March 08, 2019, 09:21:53 AM
Don't read anything more into a rule than is stated. 4 return springs is 2 more than required. Fuel line past the flywheel is a given. Throttle stops are built into the throttle bodies so do an adjustable at the pedal so you don't stretch the cable & the pedal needs a toe strap.
Your wiring diagram shows chute switch, it must also have manual overide. 3-N.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 08, 2019, 10:39:44 AM
Stainless, Sid
Thank you. That gives me direction for the next few jobs. I haven't thought about exhaust routing but the hot bottle comment brought me up short - I need to consider that.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 18, 2019, 06:32:21 AM
I was waiting for the front axle to come back so I did a bit more on cockpit packaging. This is the drivers eye view of the progress; battery kill switch and starter button partly obscured by the wheel.

The other swicthes will be ignition, fuel pump, probably an arming switch for the chute switch (so the momentary push button doesn't get knocked on accidentally while wriggling in and out) and a spare - at this stage dash illumination (backlit needle on the gauges etc) but a more practical use will probably make itself known.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 18, 2019, 06:39:58 AM
I picked the front axle up on Friday from Gary who welded it up for me.

Time for 4 bars and something to stop it moving laterally - at this stage my personal favourite remains a sliding block (vs. watts and panhard).

The Woodward steering rack is currently in a box in the USA and will be coming home with me after SW2019.

As an aside I still haven't heard that Prowerks are back in the Stiletto Steering business - that's nearly a year they have been retooling and making components ready to assemble for stock!

Hence the spindles from Strange and the rack from Rex - I guess storage fees are measured in beers(?).

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on March 18, 2019, 08:27:48 AM
John:

If you go with a Stiletto steering rack, consider a modification Podunk is doing to mine. It strengthens the steering arm considerably and does away with those four small bolts that secure that arm. I will post images as soon as I get them back from Terry.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on March 18, 2019, 01:21:06 PM
John, If you are looking to strengthen the steering arms on your Anglia spindles, buy a second set of steering arms and bolt them to the bottom of the spindle, a long bolt with some proper spacers will allow you to mount the rack and steering links behind the axle itself and be twice a strong.

I really like your idea of a sliding block for the lateral location, very simple and effective.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on March 18, 2019, 02:43:46 PM
Rex, I confused steering rack with a spindle. I was speaking to the Strange spindles. Tom Burkland suggested the same thing (use an upper and lower steering arm) and that would give me double shear in the offing. But when you see the modification, I think you will agree that it is more than adequate.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 19, 2019, 04:07:24 AM
Rex, John

Interesting you should refer to a double steering arm - I was having that conversation on Friday with Gary who welded the axle for me.  :cheers:

I would like to make the steering arms so that they contour to meet at the steering tie rod heim joint in a horizontal plane, hiding behind the axle (in aero terms). Unfortunately that means finding someone with a mill to put the cruciform grooves in the steering arms where they bolt to the top (and bottom) of the spindle kingpin housings.

Whisper this ....making the steering arms from scratch also allows the opportunity to involve Mr Ackermann but I dont want to open that can of wrigglies again.  :dhorse:

The more I ponder it the more I like it.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 01, 2019, 05:38:06 AM
A question aimed (primarily) at UK builders.....

Does anyone know how to buy Goodyear Frontrunners in the UK without silly shiping costs on top, or:
Does anyone have a simple means of bringing parts from the USA that involves a container, or part thereof, that is easy to get some items added to? Accepting customs duties will be added so expecting to pay around 30% on top of the purchase price.

A lot of what I have acquired in the US has been shipped to work colleagues and travelled back with me on business trips but I am not travelling as much as I used to and I have just been quoted €850 for freight for four Goodyear Frontrunners via Goodyear Motorsport, Germany. They appear to be the only 'EU' distributor. Thats actually more than the tyres will cost to buy from them (which is 30% more than the US Dollar price to start with) - the cost is airfreight, oh, and plus another €60 from Germany to me in the UK. They only bring in one container a year and I missed it.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 01, 2019, 07:40:01 AM
John:

If you can use domestic tires of the same size as race rubber, consider using them for your build/shipping and mount up race tires after arriving to the US. Even if you plan on high speed testing in the UK, domestic road tires should fill the need.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Podunk on April 01, 2019, 09:41:34 AM
Are your wheels 15" or 17" ?

Terry
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 01, 2019, 09:43:31 AM
Thanks John
Good call - I went down another rabbit hole didn't I - and all you get are dead rabbits down there.

Terry
15" rears.

I have second hand rubber on the fronts already. I am using Chev stud pattern on the rear so worst case would be to use a 16 or 17 rim size that gives me the same diameter (for ground clearance) for local testing. I will probably use a road derived diff ratio initially as well to avoid a push start for testing......

.....oh hello Officer, yes I am aware it is 3 am, no I did not expect to see you here either, yes the lighting on my Bonneville Lakester is indeed off my wifes bicycle, no I do not have road tax or an MOT, yes I was aware the speed limit on the M1 motorway is 70mph, yes I have a GPS speedo that was reading 150 mph so your equipment is quite accurate. No, I dont see a problem with this conversation. What do you mean, you have never heard of Bonneville? Why are you reaching for your handcuffs, I am not that sort of guy.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on April 01, 2019, 09:56:06 AM
".....oh hello Officer, yes I am aware it is 3 am, no I did not expect to see you here either, yes the lighting on my Bonneville Lakester is indeed off my wifes bicycle, no I do not have road tax or an MOT, yes I was aware the speed limit on the M1 motorway is 70mph, yes I have a GPS speedo that was reading 150 mph so your equipment is quite accurate. No, I dont see a problem with this conversation. What do you mean, you have never heard of Bonneville?"

Yet another wonderful description - and one that many of us have played through our own noggins.  Best of all, though, is your stinger:

"Why are you reaching for your handcuffs, I am not that sort of guy."

Delightful.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Podunk on April 01, 2019, 03:41:00 PM
Careful of the 17" Top Fuel front runners they are motorcycle dimensions. The motorcycle bead seat is .108" smaller in diameter than the automobile. Contact Jason @ Goodyear Racing Tires.

Terry
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 02, 2019, 07:51:37 AM
Terry, thanks for the heads up.

The universe answered me with a drag car outfit (UK based) that brings parts in from the USA and can help with the tyres at a reasonable rate but I need to do a quick doubletake per your comment. The wheels are Centreline ConvoPros and although not manufactured anymore I purchased a new set of wheels with secondhand Goodyears on them (a teams spare wheels, they were selling up).

I have also seen these wheels come up periodically on US fleabay with the 22 x 2.5 x 17 Goodyears mounted on them so had assumed the wheels and tires are compatible.

I will speak to Goodyear before I order.

 :cheers: John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 05, 2019, 07:45:22 AM
Question to those good people who have used a radiator in a water tank (as a heat sink) for engine cooling.

I have made enquiries locally via bespoke readiator specialists and have returned some quotes that result in serious money to have such a thing custom built. I am seriously considering mounting the radiator in a bespoke fibreglass water tank that I do have the capability of making myself. Has anyone taken a similar approach or is there anything that is obvious to someone else that would wave a red flag here?

I have thought through the mounting of the rad in the tank and passing the inlet and outlet tubes / hoses through the tank. Potentially the tank could have a removeable lid (like a rocker cover) making the radiator accessible.

Have you used a 'normal' radiator core or made it from something more robust (e.g. oil radiator core materials)?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on April 05, 2019, 08:44:17 AM
I know Buddy"s Flat Cad had a regular radiator in a box in the trunk.... it had a removable lid with a RTV gasket.

But they had a ton of room.... you do not.  Your radiator may need to be less than standard size...
I would do a tank... but Sparky will have a different opinion. 
I think John Goodman also had a radiator in a tank in his 2 liter... and it is small
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 05, 2019, 10:07:01 AM
Thanks Stainless - definately doing a tank - the rad will be around 13" wide x 20" tall and 3.5 to 4 " deep with the tank/box wider at the top and around 8" deep.

I like the idea of having a top opening - the tank itself will not be under pressure and the idea of being able to fish the radiator out appeals to me, although the potential need to fish the radiator out does not because if it fails we will be going home with our postcards, earlier in the week than planned.

The problem is if you solve every potential problem to the degree that you eliminate failure you dont actually build anything - was it Rochen Rindt who commented that when the rear wheel of his grand prix car over takes him he remembers he is driving for Lotus - maybe a little too much in the other direction - adding too much lightness.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 05, 2019, 10:31:19 AM
Was Rochen Jochens' brother?  :-D  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Interested Observer on April 05, 2019, 02:34:19 PM
A couple thoughts on the radiator/box.
Since the heat transfer water-to-water is much more effective than water-to-air, the size of the “radiator” can be considerably smaller than what one would typically use for water-to-air.  Also, the core depth cited above is excessive--doesn’t really add much to heat transfer.  Frontal area is much more effective.  The system heat capacity is really the amount of water in the box, which can also be iced if really pressed for space.
To take advantage of thermo-siphon currents in the box, the radiator should be horizontal or inclined as much as possible unless you plan on a circulating pump in the box. 
All of which may create or solve packaging issues.
It comes down to how much horsepower and for how long.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 05, 2019, 02:36:51 PM
John, a pressurized heat exchanger in a non-pressurized tank is the way to go but an air cooled radiator due to it's shape is often not the right choice. A/C condensers have a better packaging shape, heater cores could also work & there are some side mount type turbo intercoolers that would work well too. Mounting it with the core fins vertical will allow thermosiphon action to improve efficiency. If you have a space issue, pumping the secondary water to another tank will give you more capacity & the ability to bleed more temp off through that plumbing as well.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Sumner on April 05, 2019, 07:46:42 PM
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/rad-in-box-68.jpg)

Ours wasn't all that expensive to make and one could be made smaller on the same principle ...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-13.html

I do have a TIG welder though.  So far it has worked very well.  Thank you Sparky for introducing us to the concept.

Sumner
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Glen on April 05, 2019, 08:27:51 PM
Sun are you back and working on the car now???
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Sumner on April 05, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
Sun are you back and working on the car now???

No.  In the Bahamas now...

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/anyone-in-the-bahamas-from-here-now.195838/

Will be back to FL maybe 1st of May and home later in the month.  In the process of making a small camp trailer that will haul us and a dirt bike on the tongue and a 4 wheeler ATV behind the living area.  Got the trailer built need to put the small living quarters on it when we get home.  Hope all is well with you  :-).  Come visit us  :-)

Sum
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: John Burk on April 06, 2019, 12:48:58 AM
Boil off coolant tanks have been discussed here . Like a radiator in a tank but the radiator boils the tank water . About 1/10th the tank volume needed compared to a conventional water tank . The pressurized engine water would warm quickly but not overheat . Haven't found in my notes yet who uses that system .
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 06, 2019, 08:20:21 AM
John, I used an old Formula Ford front mount radiator from my Lola. It passed a pressure test so I ignored all the dings and dents. I would attach photos but all my image files are too large and for some reason, I can not reduce them. Anyway, it appears you have a finished solution so you are all set.
 
BTW, add some water wetter to radiator and tank water. It will Keep your water about 25 degrees cooler. I use Hy-Per Lube. It is non flamible but is the same color as ethyl glycol so bring a bottle to tech inspection if they ask.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on April 06, 2019, 03:47:39 PM
Terry, thanks for the heads up.

The universe answered me with a drag car outfit (UK based) that brings parts in from the USA and can help with the tyres at a reasonable rate but I need to do a quick doubletake per your comment. The wheels are Centreline ConvoPros and although not manufactured anymore I purchased a new set of wheels with secondhand Goodyears on them (a teams spare wheels, they were selling up).

I have also seen these wheels come up periodically on US fleabay with the 22 x 2.5 x 17 Goodyears mounted on them so had assumed the wheels and tires are compatible.

I will speak to Goodyear before I order.

 :cheers: John




    John
       The correct Goodyear front tire to run is the Top Fuel Dragster tire. Goodyear has two dragster front tires one for the smaller econo type rails and the one for the big boys top fuel.  Not sure which one your thinking about the top fuel front tire will handle 700 pounds weight per tire not sure what that is in metric. We run that type of tire on the salt and runways so far with great success using spindle mount wheels
      Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 07, 2019, 01:08:46 AM
Wayne
Correction noted. Rochen was his twin brother, played in a band, the Cars I think  :-D

Many thanks for the rad / tank feedback (I/O, Sid, Sumner, John’s).
Space gives me tall and skinny for the rad. I like the idea of circulating the water in the tank to spread the heat sink load and those inlet/outlet/electric water pump parts would already be setup if a secondary reservoir was needed; simples.

RR; thanks for the Goodyear intel; do you know the D number of the front tyre on spindles that you refer to?

I am currently working on the gear shift linkage as that passes through the firewall and therefore affects the tank shape. Anyone have a few thou (15 to be precise) so I can use a sequential Quaife box instead of the stock H pattern?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 07, 2019, 08:25:33 AM
John, I'm looking at the D2904 for my car. They are 4". The D1445 is 2.5". I think that's what Ronnie was referring to.  :cheers:
P.s; Was that "Rockin' Rochen"? (ouch)
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 07, 2019, 11:17:36 AM
D1445 was what I had in mind. 

The ones that came on the rims are D1121 but may have been superseded. They have some sidewall hairline cracks; black boot polish will fix those, I’ve watched Fastest Indian.
John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 07, 2019, 01:00:38 PM
Nugget Mate! 8-)
The cheap way to move secondary water to another tank is a bilge pump, 500-gph for 20 bucks from Fleabay is hard to beat. You can even afford a spare at that price!
   Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Sumner on April 07, 2019, 07:14:01 PM
Nugget Mate! 8-)
The cheap way to move secondary water to another tank is a bilge pump, 500-gph for 20 bucks from Fleabay is hard to beat. You can even afford a spare at that price!
   Sid.

(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/Ice-Water-Tank-10.jpg)

(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/Ice-Water-Tank-54.jpg)

I used two in our ice water intercooler...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20construction%20menu.html


(http://1fatgmc.com/boat/end-1/endeavour-plumbing/17-02-16%20B%20Pumps%20Pt3-2.jpg)

Have three in the boat  8-)  .  The top two flow way more than the bottom one and were a lot more expensive than $20, but a $20 one like I used in the intercooler tank or what Sid is talking about move a lot of water,

Sumner
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 08, 2019, 08:21:55 AM
Thanks guys. When I first saw the bilge pump reference (on my idiotPhone) I got nervous - I thought SW was when the flats dried out, not when they were flooded but then I clocked the reference to shifting water from tanks; I like he annotated pictures too though having three in a boat is either extreme conditions or redundancy or a leaky boat. As long as the leak is not at the end of the boat I am sitting at I am okay.

I am still exploring (cost effective) ways to get a rad in a tank; I had a minor light bulb moment when I realsied a specialist made me two fuel tanks in alloy for the Lotus Europa for less than the rad people were going to charge for the water tank so I have sent an email - I could do it in fibreglass but there is a cost vs. time equation here too.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 08, 2019, 10:46:14 AM
Aluminum is more desirable, it'll radiate heat, fiberglass will insulate.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 08, 2019, 02:09:51 PM
John,
Looking through my "junk" and I have a Harrison heat exchanger that has -10 fittings and is approx. 13.75" wide x 9" tall x 3.5" thick. I can throw it in the box with the steering if you want. $50

Pic below.

Rex


Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on April 08, 2019, 04:42:45 PM
John, I'm looking at the D2904 for my car. They are 4". The D1445 is 2.5". I think that's what Ronnie was referring to.  :cheers:
P.s; Was that "Rockin' Rochen"? (ouch)
Wayno
[/quot

 Hi John
   Wayno has the info correct I run the Goodyear D2904. The first tire I ordered was the D-1445 but it was way to light duty for what were doing I sent those tires back and ordered the D-2904.   
    Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 09, 2019, 03:59:07 AM
Tyre advise noted, thankyou - I will order the wider section D2904's for the front. Many thanks for the 'catch'.
John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 09, 2019, 08:09:48 AM
I ordered mine yesterday from Summit. They are to arrive tomorrow.  :-D
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 09, 2019, 10:44:24 AM
Wayno - that was not kind  :-D
If I get them ordered they will take weeks to reach me.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 09, 2019, 11:00:57 AM
I'm a bad man.  :-D  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 09, 2019, 05:33:41 PM
I'm a bad man.  :-D  :cheers:
Wayno
Stop teasing the $hit outa the foreigners Wayno! :evil:
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 09, 2019, 06:10:25 PM
Sid, I really wasn't trying to tease 'em.  :roll:  Do I still get credit?  :?
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on April 09, 2019, 07:22:59 PM
Wayno i think to make things right you should pick them up for John and hand deliver them. Two small tires should be fine as carry on luggage.   :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 09, 2019, 10:19:49 PM
Ronnie, that's a splendid idea.  :cheers: Did you need my address so you can send me the tickets?  :lol:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 10, 2019, 12:09:03 AM
Ah you flathead guys! :mrgreen:
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 10, 2019, 03:01:46 AM
Rex

All the (tyre) cruelty to dumb animals has distratced me. Wayno gets credit even if it wasnt intentional because it was quite well done - I have been trying to get my co. to relo me to our Irvine Ca. office for a while but they can't find a use for me - sure hope the Marlow UK folks don't figure that out - I don't think Tracey will keep me as a pet.

Thank you for the offer of the heat exchnager - I will make that Plan B if you don't mind - I haven't given up on getting a rad and a seperate co. doing the tank though the guy who did my fuel tanks a few years back said thanks but no - too busy doing amazing ally work for classic cars (they with the deep wallets presumably).

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on April 10, 2019, 03:57:49 PM
Ronnie, that's a splendid idea.  :cheers: Did you need my address so you can send me the tickets?  :lol:
Wayno





  Oh boy there goes my pre entry money!   :cry:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 10, 2019, 08:29:46 PM
My D2904s just arrived.  :-)  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 11, 2019, 05:26:59 AM
Since you insist on teasing the colonials I will accept your offer of a beer as an apology (its in your message, two steins clinking) - I will be at the Red Nuggett SW2019 hanging out with Geoff and his crew with the 7707 Roadster.

I prefer a UK style ale - none of that US (and NZ I note with horror) interpretation of an IPA with strong hoppy fruity tones - something smooth, easy to drink in quantity best served at cellar temperature because it was invented before refrigeration so is a true classic.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 11, 2019, 07:03:34 AM
And here I thought warm UK beer was because of...wait for it...Lucas refrigeration. I know, it is an old hack but never gets old, at least not for an old guy like me.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 11, 2019, 08:03:01 AM
Would a "P-38 Porter" do?  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 11, 2019, 10:16:51 AM
Porter is usually a bit heavy but the reference to the Lightning and therefore drop tanks and by very tenuous extension Lakesters then YES.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 12, 2019, 01:34:55 AM
Right, oops.

XF/GL P-38 Drop Tank Lakester - should have looked in the 2018 program before making naive statements.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on April 12, 2019, 09:22:40 AM
It's OK if you don't like porter, I will happily help you drink any of Wayno's P-38... it is quite tasty  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 15, 2019, 09:20:56 AM
I have been creeping up on a solution for an H gate shifter in the Lakester. The engine and box came out of a front engine rear wheel drive car.

In the donor car the gear shift is directly on the tailshaft of the g'box. It is now yards behind me. Initially I removed the shift lever (pivoted on a ball joint) and replaced the lower end of that with something that engages the gearbox push / pull / rotate shift rod. I tried cables and bellcranks and got it working but at the cockpit end it took up too much room and I couldn't get in or out - bad planning.

I looked into sequential shift and yes Quaife make one and no my arms are not long enough to reach into the pockets that would be deep enough to fund same.

Version two is like a single seater using a Hewland box up the rear - push / pull a series of rods interconnected with UJ's and enable the entire mechanism to rotate through a few degrees to go 'across' thegate. As of Sunday this proof of concept mockup works albeit a bit clunky but it is a cold static gearbox. Assuming I have the directional travel correctly translating into 1st to 2nd (instead of 6th to 5th) etc. I am pleased with this progress.

There is some lost movement in these UJs so they wil probably be upgraded to RaceTech roller bearing versions (three times the price) and I thought my hack at the shifter end using a cardan shaft (square rod) was genius but it turns out only one inch of the outer is square bore so although it positivelly actins the cross gate motion its a bit floppy. A 3/4" DD steering shaft might work. The shift shaft runs diagonally inside the cockpit to a UJ behind the seat. The rod runs just under my ribs and does not make physical contact with me.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 15, 2019, 09:21:51 AM
More pics of shifter setup
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 15, 2019, 09:25:23 AM
And one more - square shaft driled to accomodate small ball joint at the gear lever end.

I wil probably come back to this and do the entire thing again for a third time (or is it forth) to make it more positive and allow some movement in the bush it passes through at the firewall (engine movement) - some for of rod end style flanged bush.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Sumner on April 16, 2019, 04:47:08 PM
Looks like you are on your way  :-).  I do have some pics that I took of different cars and their solutions here...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvilleother/page%209.html

Sumner
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 16, 2019, 06:42:08 PM
John, it may not help but I use a stock Hewland Mk9 gearbox. Only recently have I added a 5-speed PBS sequential shift kit and plan to replace the open dif with a Torsen unit (left over from the old days). You live in the land of Hewland plenty so I think it should not be hard to find a good used box priced affordably.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 17, 2019, 03:56:16 AM
Thanks Sumner
When I first started 'thinking' about the Lakester, and before any metal was harmed, I came across your site and spent many (many) lunchtimes in the office looking at all the pics and reading it cover to cover. In some cases that answered questions, in others it gave me the right questions to ask. I thank you for the effort you put in. Some of theose lunchtimes might have over run a bit  :roll:

John
That engine shot is car porn. To be honest I never thought about Hewland and now I am committed to the inline drivetrain with a diff.
If you need any Bits brought over I will be at SW 2019 and may in fact have a (work) opportunity to be in Ca. in June - 'parts trip', though that is not what will go on my expenses.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 17, 2019, 10:26:36 AM
John, I am looking for a reasonably priced "White Rhino", all aluminum case for my Mk9. How plentiful are they in the UK?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 17, 2019, 04:19:02 PM
John
No idea what that is but guessing it’s stronger than standard: let me speak to the race car engineer who did my roll structure welding; he will know what you are referring to and where they hide. Doesn’t sound like a hand luggage kinda thing but maybe with a strappy handle it could double as a small suitcase  :evil:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 17, 2019, 06:53:08 PM
John, I should have better explained. Rhino cases were used by FF and FC cars to give added strength to the Hewland transaxle. It was a more robust aluminum/magnesium case and worked well. When off road vehicles began mating higher horsepower engines to VW Transaxles, an even stronger case was needed. VW responded by making an even more robust all aluminum case with a cross bolt that tied both side covers together. They sell these cases here in the states but are a little pricey. As Hewland is much more common and available in the UK, I was hoping to find one in your back yard.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 18, 2019, 02:30:51 AM
John
Gary is going to speak to his gearbox man for me / you.

I Googlised it, sorry, I should translate that; Googlized it, and found a new one in the U.K. but then saw the small print as Sold. It wasn’t exactly a popular search item.

I suspect it probably helps to know someone who knows someone and if Gary doesn’t know someone in the U.K. car racing world they are most likely someone’s imaginary friend.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 18, 2019, 08:11:53 AM
Thanks, John.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 18, 2019, 08:23:23 AM
I was listening to a radio program today and they were talking about the use of Z vs. S in English words as apparantly the Prince of Wales (he of tradition) incorporates the Z as, for many english words, dating back several centuries, the Z was predominant.

Apologies; it looks like Googlize is probably the correct 17th century spelling after all.

On a more serious note, I just received some Borgeson steering UJs compatible at one end with the Clear Steer and the Woodward rack at the other (the rack that Rex is keeping warm for me) and a 3/4" DD collapsible column to connect them per Stainless' comments ages agio about my column so thats another thing sorted. I love getting parcels, even if I already know whats in them.

The only teeny fly in the engine oil is the DD shaft - it is slotted to positivelly engage the slide so I cant nick a bit off each end to remake my shifter - I will have to get a whole new one - ouch.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on April 18, 2019, 10:11:29 AM
That rubber seal needs removed, then you can see what you are working with... it will just trap salt in there anyway and cause issues.   I shorten and lengthen those things all the time.... 
You only need as much of the slide as you need.. plus a little  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on April 18, 2019, 10:31:52 AM
Stainless, I think John is using this DD shaft for shift linkage. Are you thinking steering linkage?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 18, 2019, 11:45:41 AM
Stainless put me onto it for the steering linkage but I think it is also spot on for the cockpit endd (v3.0) of my shift linkage too. I will be using two of them.

And the point is noted - you don't want salt getting into your shaft.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on April 18, 2019, 12:04:08 PM
Apologies; it looks like Googlize is probably the correct 17th century spelling after all.

Zhorten zteering zhaft linkage?  :? Iz that zo?  :x :-D
Pleaze zay zomething about thiz Ztainlezz!  :cheers:
The Black Prinz ztrikez again!  :-o
Thiz iz zo zilly! :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on April 18, 2019, 12:42:52 PM
Woody, az you probably know zometimes you can buy both zides in 18 inch lengthz.... cut and pazte az required  :cheers:

Yes I know he is looking at it for shift linkage... you still might find a couple of Morse cables would be easier  Rev 12?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on April 18, 2019, 12:54:11 PM
John
 Something to remember when you install the steering shaft be sure it has a positive stop at the top as per the rules. If the unthinkable happens the shaft will not try to penetrate the driver causing bad things.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 19, 2019, 04:10:20 AM
RR
Good call. I am using a Clear Steer so my steering wheel is about 16” above the steering column shaft which will be under the floor. Having said that it’s good to constantly rethink the design as I am sure when, deep in a rabbit hole, I have missed something obvious.
John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on April 19, 2019, 10:02:44 AM
They have pills for that..... ask Alice  :roll:  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 19, 2019, 10:59:31 AM
And the ones that mother gives you, don’t do anything at all  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on April 19, 2019, 11:07:43 AM
You'll have to speak up if you want her to hear you.  Remember, Alice is ten feet tall.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: rgdavid on April 19, 2019, 11:32:24 AM
Its all gone wierd again  :-D

What is a "clear steer " ?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: jdincau on April 19, 2019, 11:37:44 AM
http://wizardsteerclear.com/
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 19, 2019, 02:45:11 PM
Wizzbang name for an old idea! I built my first "ratio chain drive" in 1969 for my oval track Jag.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 25, 2019, 04:04:46 AM
QUESTION.  :? I am waiting for parts and waiting for a radiator shop to give me a quote on a simple rad to go in a tank - they get interested, get all excited and start proposing clever solutions and then it all goes quiet. So, planning ahead to my next special construction challenge ......

Could someone running a naturally aspirated engine comment on cooling the induction air please. I had orignally assumed some aluminium tubes running through an ice bath with the induction air feeding from the NACA inlet to a collector that feeds the tubes, through the cold tubes, collected, to the ITB airbox via a 5" duct. Since I can't weld aluminium* and the local fabricators seem to want a kings ransom for things like this what clever solutions have people arrived at and how did you measure success?

I have considered using metal epoxy to bond the alloy tubes to drilled end plates then wrapping that in a fibeglass tank. I have also considered thin wall fibreglass tubes all fibreglassed together.

If I calculate for a 5" induction duct that surface area is ~ equivalent to fifteen 1.25" ID tubes in three rows of five with space for ice and water around them. Each tube would be around 14" long in my most ideal packaging configuration. Will this work? Will the tubes strangle the free flow of air? etc. Is there a smarter way to do it?

*some days I can't weld mild steel.

Thanks, John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: comet on April 25, 2019, 07:23:10 AM
John would it be possible to silver solder the joins? I might be miles off track here but thought I'd throw it out there anyway. Ally can be silver soldered according to my mate Google.

Cheers
John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 25, 2019, 08:31:36 AM
Ooh John, you comment about (silver) solder triggered a brain cell and I dont know why I didnt consider it - instead of ally make it in copper / brass and solder it.
Silver solder ally is interesting too.

In the UK the larger size (home) copper pipe on the boiler, gas mains and hot water cylinder circuits is 28mm (1.1 inch) - a bit narrow but if some is good more might be better and too many will be just right. I bet there is a larger diameter out there too.

Great thermal conductivity and would look great polished  :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 25, 2019, 04:04:10 PM
Get some ally soldering rods & see what you can do with that John!
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 25, 2019, 09:23:44 PM
John,
I like the copper tube thinking! Look at the area of all of the tubes and then calculate the air velocity through them at max engine speed. It needs to be fast enough so that it is turbulent which will provide maximum exchange of heat. I think I would have the exchange tubes between the NACA duct and what ever you are going to use for an air box over the engine inlet. Remember you need to slow the air down before the engine inlets to recover pressure and take advantage of some velocity charging.

I have always thought of just taking a bottle of compressed air, like a scuba bottle, and discharge it into the engine air inlet. I would not seal it so that it would not be considered a type of supercharging but the air escaping from the bottle at high velocity comes out at a very low temperature and mixed with the air coming in through the scoop it should cool it. (Maybe!?)

One more idea, buy that Harrison heat exchanger that I have ($50 to you) make your inlet so that it seals around the exchanger and then pump ice water through it you are sure to get some good temp drop. (I am going to sell you that thing yet!!!)

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Jack Gifford on April 26, 2019, 12:32:05 AM
The original solder for aluminum was patented in about 1955 and named Chemalloy. Its chemistry was quite complex and it achieved a true soldered joint with strength equal to the aluminum alloy being soldered. I don't find "Chemalloy" available now, and don't know if modern "aluminum solders" are just gimmicks.

Sheet copper is a good idea. Brass also solders well and could be a little thinner than copper. In fact, thin mild steel is also easy to solder.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: comet on April 26, 2019, 03:12:11 AM
John larger sizes are available. 28mm, 35mm, 42mm, 54mm. The larger sizes get pretty pricey though. You may find a local industrial plumbers outlet ( Pipe Center Wolseley, BSS or one of those would be the ones to try) can help you out especially if they have some damaged copper. It is sometimes reduced in price it it is bent or has a ding in it.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Peter Jack on April 26, 2019, 03:59:44 AM
The original solder for aluminum was patented in about 1955 and named Chemalloy. Its chemistry was quite complex and it achieved a true soldered joint with strength equal to the aluminum alloy being soldered. I don't find "Chemalloy" available now, and don't know if modern "aluminum solders" are just gimmicks.

Sheet copper is a good idea. Brass also solders well and could be a little thinner than copper. In fact, thin mild steel is also easy to solder.

If you google aluminum brazing rod you'll find an assortment of options. I use a rod called "Aladdin 3 in 1" myself. I have tried brazing aluminum sheet with it and it works really well although I don't normally use it for that purpose as I have tig which is easier and superior. I use the rod for welding pot metal castings. It does a really neat job for that.

I pick it up at my welding supplier.

Pete
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 26, 2019, 10:20:29 AM
Thanks guys, I appreciate the leads wrt aluminium soldering and brazing.

The reference to a scuba bottle made me think a 50% O2 mix (deco gas mix we used to dive on) might improve the induction air  :-D

No one has said the overall concept is flawed (yet) which is encouraging.

I have been discussing combustion chamber shapes (and pistons) with my top-end man this morning: exciting and scary in equal measure.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 29, 2019, 05:30:39 AM
I have reinstated the inner panel with some slight beating to fit the shifter.
I have also moved the firewall UJ to the engine side of the firewall through bush (it was mocked up on the cockpit side) in the hope that will better accommodate slight engine movement without binding the shifter rod. That seems to have the added benefit of removing some of the play from the cardan bush / slide and it might work as mocked up - plan b is to hack a DD steering shaft and tube. I am now replacing the UJs to a higher spec (from Racetech); 3 mid spec UJs added up to around 10mm of side to side movement over the length of the shift rod assembly which feels like excessive play when seated and 'changing gear whilst making vroom vroom noises'.

As I am also exploring the rad and tank (what a saga) I need to know where things are passing through the firewall (ideally not positioned to pass through the rad) so a first crude mockup of the firewall in 1/4" mdf allows me to drill holes and then plan the tank out on the mdf.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 29, 2019, 05:32:39 AM
Arrggh - I rotated and saved that pic of the firewall.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 29, 2019, 05:38:29 AM
Passing through the firewall is also the push / pull throttle cable. To be 'out of the way' it took a rather awkward curve to get to the throttle bodies and that added stiction. I have therefore added a bellcrank (with oilite bushes) attached to the engine mount bracketry which was conveniently in the right place.

I have return springs on all four TBs (on the spindle) but will add a simple linear one to the bellcrank to pull it home directly in line with the cable.
I need to mount the cable at the engine end and put a throttle stop on the pedal and that is another section of the rule book checked off.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 09, 2019, 02:57:13 AM
I remade the switch panel to incorporate a circuit for the battery cut out (solid state relay).
A larger blue switch will be mounted for external shut off.

In the process I had a play with vinyl letters - more a vanity project than something really practial but its nice to finish something and box it up.

The instrument pod will have two small red push butttons accesible with hands on the wheel (left or right hand both served) to fire the chute solenoid. As these could be brushed fitting the wheel getting in it seemed prudent to have a seperate rocker switch to arm the circuit. There will be a secondary (cable) chute release too; that is on the list of things to design / locate in the cockpit.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 28, 2019, 09:36:22 AM
I have finalised the mechanical ejector seat chute release mechanism. This is the backup to switches on the instrument pod.

There is a central roll structure tube running under the floor and so this bracketry was made to mount to that with the handle coming through the floor and sitting between the thighs - it is a completely natural action to pull it towards you (rather than up) - possibly a reflex action protecting ones nether parts - as such the handle arcs with the mechanism.

I think the cockpit is now only missing the extinguisher firing mechanism (lever / button / whatever) so I can now remake the 'floor' with the correct openings and close the cockpit chapter for now.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 28, 2019, 09:53:05 AM
The other project this weekend (I love it when they make me stay home on a Monday) was the airbox. I purchased a blank one with a shallow backplate.

It was close to fitting inside the body line but it needed a slice out of the backplate to angle it down slightly - I have just under a 1/2" of clearance.

I also started mocking up the 5" inlet tube.
4" is a standard airbox inlet - comments welcome - this engine will be high revving, naturally aspirated and hopefully making some reasonable power at the top end.

This meant further mods to the backplate but the tube will feed around 95% of its surface area unimpeded. 5" is a UK standard for ducting (clothes dryers, cooker hoods etc) so the plastic duct joiner is an ideal basis to pattern the inlet.

Lots of slicing and fibreglassing done with a lot more to follow to wrap this up.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on May 28, 2019, 11:03:50 AM
Hopefully no one will bump that when the are checking your belts at the start line.... Of course I always recommend chute deployment without removing a hand from the wheel...
Hope you never need to know why  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on May 28, 2019, 12:45:05 PM
If you haven't already, put a safety on the chute release to prevent premature ejeculation. :-D
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 29, 2019, 07:59:52 AM
Sid - I initially thought that was a typo then realised it was a very good pun.  :cheers:

Stainless, Sid

The primary chute release will be a boot (trunk) release solenoid activated by a little red button on the instrument pod - two in fact, one for the left hand and one for the right - that would allow a lefty to have a drive. These can be triggered with hands on the wheel. I have an isolation switch on the 'dash' which arms that circuit once in and belted as part of the startup routine.

The ejeculate handle was a humourous (?) item sourced from a 1970's jet (still in its original Martin Baker packaging) for the required mechanical backup, and especially if ones hands are not in the straight ahead it will be an omg moment anyway so reaching between your legs will be natural.

I had not considered that someone might 'catch' this when cinching the belts up and need to explore further. I am assuming the chute end of the vehicle will have a pre-flight pin - I guess the crew show that to the driver before closing the canopy so maybe thats the security step, engage that in such a way that the chute release cable can't be withdrawn with that pin in so the chute cover stays in place regardless.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on May 29, 2019, 09:41:54 AM
There's been a lot of chutes deployed on the startline over the years.
Way back in the early 90's the Vesco liner had rocket launcher's, we were in line right behind them strapping Al into his claustrophobic bullet when one of those things went by. That was a holly $hit moment! :-o
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on May 29, 2019, 10:58:22 AM
Sid.... that was probably when they used shotgun blanks to deploy...  somewhere in my old pre-digital pics I have a picture of the old double barrell shotgun Don mounted back there to fire the chutes out.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on May 30, 2019, 07:16:49 AM
It was definitely a wizzer as it went by not a banger but holy shotgun shells Batman, that'd be interesting at close range! :cry:
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 18, 2019, 04:19:29 PM
Fun with fibreglass. It releases very easily off the lightly waxed pvc duct pipe (male pattern) but I was lazy with the fibreglass mould taken off that and had to do a little bit of filler and a coat of paint on the resultant 5" f'glass inlet grafted onto the airbox.

Just waiting for the rad in tank to be finished to finalise the motor position then I can work up the chassis rear of he firewall.

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 19, 2019, 04:15:03 PM
NACA noodling one

Thinking about packaging of the inlet ducting from the body inlet to the airbox.

The crude elevation sketches below are per Staniforth (Race and Rally Car Source Book) with a flat ramp floor at 5-11 degrees.
I came across another mathematical model for NACA that results in a curved ramp floor (front to back) that looks a bit like the 's' curve sides of a NACA in plan, but flatter.

What are the pros and cons?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 19, 2019, 04:24:17 PM
NACA noodling two

All the modelling I have seen of a NACA shows the body / fuselage surface as flat where the duct is mounted though on most aircraft the fuselage would be curved, probably in both directions.

Assuming that it is mounted on the side and there is a gentle curve (exaggerated in the crude sketches below);

The rear lip will obviously follow the curve but what about the ramp floor in end elevation. If it should be flat then should the ramp sides be at 90 degrees to the floor (pic a) or the body surface (pic c)?
If they should b at 90 degrees to both the body surface and the floor to work efficiently that would require the ramp floor to follow the curve of the body surface in end elevation (pic b)?

 :|
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on June 21, 2019, 06:12:31 PM
I would go with your "A" concept. Easiest to build and provides good vertical surface to expand the two vortices that go down each side. Next to the cut out shape (plan view) the next most important thing is that the junction of the vertical side wall and the body surface be a sharp corner, this is important to form the vortex on each side that makes the NACA duct work.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on June 21, 2019, 08:14:02 PM
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090012113.pdf
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on June 21, 2019, 08:22:38 PM
-A-  :cheers:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=17369.msg316981#msg316981
http://www.designdreams.biz/design-portfolio-1---cfd-studies.html
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on June 22, 2019, 09:32:36 AM
Ours looks like this... we use if blown to supply air to the turbo and unblown to supply pressurized air to the throttle bodies.  It has been years since we instrumented the airbox, but I suspect we still get pressure.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Sumner on June 22, 2019, 01:44:19 PM
I'll add the following.  I had a person who I won't identify, but will say they hold a world record, tell me that they use a NACA duct on their vehicle which is blown (turbo) but wouldn't consider using one if it was NA unless a lot of effort was put into designing one for their "specific vehicle".

Stainless's lakester has shown that what they have works in their situation with their body and where it is located.  Doesn't mean that the same duct would work on yours unless the the body was exactly the same.

Personally I'd start with a scoop and take no chances on supplying the required air.  You could always change down the road or possibly make them interchangeable to some degree.  A properly designed scoop doesn't have to hurt much aero wise as it should be taking in the column of air that it is confronting.

Some Scoop Theory ...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-scoop%20info-1.html

A Spreadsheet to help with inlet size (at top of the general spreadsheets)...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html

Sumner

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 26, 2019, 05:21:51 AM
Thanks guys. I think the NACA will be a suck it and see experiment but I would like to get it as right as I can.

I note in the original NACA data they profile the ramp floor (in end elevation) to the fuselage curvature in one experiement but for some reason show it with curved edges (floor to sides) contrary to the vortex discusion.

I suspect to really understand them requires arcane knowledge that involves secret passwords and handshakes.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 26, 2019, 05:27:50 AM
In other news the rad in tank is being built now - I thought it was started several weeks ago but when I rang to enquire the top man I was dealing with realised he hadn't assigned a works order to the job so the fabricators hadn't started work on it.

In the meantime I have been looking for homes for things in the engine area. It is so easy to forget that a throttle cable passes through a space or a fuel pump needs room for inlet and outlet lines and the lines need space to go around corners wihout moocking things up. Whoever commented that things get tight real fast in a Lakester / Liner was spot on.

It looks like the fuel pump and filters will have a nice out of the way home under the tail piece of the gearbox, and hats a low point in terms of fuel flow to them from the tank which is good too.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 26, 2019, 05:38:15 AM
I initially mocked the engine up (canted over) assuming that the flat surface where the original gear shift mounts was horizontal (I now know it isn't - weird).

In the donor vehicle the engine, some subsequent research revealed, is at 15 degrees. I have now used a digital inclinometer to go from mockup to positioning - taking 20mm out of one of the engine mount legs in he process - solved some problems, created others.

I was closer to 22 degrees and have now split the difference at 18 for packaging purposes - now the oil filter just hits a chassis rail (small relief required instead of major circular routing) but now the water pump inlet hose just hits the rail on the other side - great compromise that - almost win / lose. The water inlet neck has been sliced and is off to a welder of aluminium to see if he can do magic - it will point up slightly if that works.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 26, 2019, 05:54:18 AM
I mocked up a battery (lighter than a proper one and less risk of damage test fitting in awkward spaces).

This is becoming a game of tetris. Fuel pump, filters and pressure regulator (with gauge), fuses and relays, battery, fuel tank, extinguisher bottles, cup holder, ice box for inlet air (long shot it will have any effect), airbox and ducting for ITBs, inlet air NACA/ scoop ducting etc.

Dimensionally my mock up battery is just like the one in the catalogue but it won't hold a charge - what did I do wrong?  :-D

Pictured sitting on a chassis rail; this will not be its home. It will weigh around 15 lb - ideally I would like to move it forward under the seat for (slight) weight distribution benefits but that means more holes in the already crowded firewall (most of which will be occluded by the radiator tank). Current count is: shifter rod, throttle cable, clutch and brake line, some wiring from the instruments, chute cable, extinguisher cable times two and extinguisher hose for cockpit nozzles. If the ECU goes in the cockpit that's a large bundle of nerve fibres to pass back to the engine bay and a long wiring run for them too.

At this stage (avoiding the exhaust side of the engine) the battery could sit next to the gear box but that shifts the tank backwards as that is likely to sit in the space on the left of the gearbox (behind the scattershield) too.
The fuel weight being on the left of the vehicle will offset some of the weight of the engine top end canted to the right.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 17, 2019, 09:35:04 AM
The radiator is on its way from the builder so I will soon be able to finalise my engine position and work up the chassis rail bracing from the firewall rearwards. Best I cut some 2mm panel steel and commit to a firewall too.

The tank has a radiator tube top and bottom plus a smaller diameter drain / circulation tube top and bottom - I am thinking of a small water pump to ensure that the tank water is 'mixed' during engine running.

Counting down the days now till we are visiting SW 2019.
$ notes are in the suitcase Rex.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 17, 2019, 11:42:41 AM
Steering rack and pinion is in a "Bonnevile travel box" awaiting the exchange! Good thinking about a pump to recirculate water in the box.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 01, 2019, 04:55:06 AM
Message for UK builders
I have two Moon disc dzus tag welding jigs you are welcome to borrow (15" and 17"). I ordered the Moons and associated hardware through JackHammer Hot Rod and Kustom in Farnborough (disclaimer; no affiliation).

I can't find the recent post that was from the Isle of Man (iirc) regarding a Lakester in build in the UK - pm me if you read this and we can help each other.

Three more days at work and its big metal bird time; LHR to LAX to SLC and drive to the Bonneville Salt Flats to watch and learn - yeah  8-).
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on August 01, 2019, 01:31:10 PM
 John your going to be overwhelmed by what you see and the people you meet.  Lots to see and learn your going to enjoy this for sure. If your around the pits in the area of the second row stop by and say hi car is number 8150 front is a drop tank the rear is a roadster  Im hoping were just relaxing and not working on her but thats usually impossible running our vintage engine.   :cheers:
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 27, 2019, 07:39:23 AM
Had a great SW, met lots of cool people and learned a lot; I highly recommend a scoping trip to explore (with limited watching of race cars) to get a feel for things - simple things like refueling, wheres the laundromat etc. Even took time to chat at the VP fuel truck and now that is not a mystery.

Came back all inspired and I am determined to get the rear chassis and suspension sorted over the next couple of months. The rear axle build is happening in parallel - the rusty one is for mock-up.

The scalloping of tubing has been simplified, as previously stated, using pvc tube. I found some (sink waste) that is 40mm od and that happens to sleeve over 1.5" OD cds (dom) tubing so its quick to transfer the pattern to the steel and cut with confidence and it is super close - all the junk ones are in plastic - cheaper and quicker. Clarification: the main roll structure is 1.625" tube. The lower rear rail is 1.625" supporting the engine and box etc and the rest (rear of the firewall) is 1.5".

I have given myself the option of sliding block or watts for the rear axle - once the 4 bars etc are done I will noodle on that.   :|

Yes, there is a pile of abandoned scalloped steel tubes in the pic but that's because I did a rethink to work around the motor mounts and the scatter-shield without leaving gaps. I usually get to version 3 before I am happy. Steve's wife very helpfully suggested skipping v.1 and v.2 as that would save time.

Again - thanks to everyone for the chats, the insights and the help.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 27, 2019, 07:45:27 AM
Radiator / water tank.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on August 27, 2019, 09:32:56 AM
Just noticed your shifter is on the left hand side, John. Are you left handed or is it a UK thing (lol)?

Are you going to use a swirl pot located well above the cylinder head to add coolant?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on August 27, 2019, 09:48:25 AM
Right hand drive comfort zone John! I'd be screwed right now if I didn't live in the US as I don't have the use of my left hand.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on August 27, 2019, 10:23:56 AM
I'd be screwed right now if I didn't live in the US as I don't have the use of my left hand.

Shoot, Sid, that has to restrict Fosters consumption.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on August 27, 2019, 09:37:24 PM
Nah, I'm not a drinker John. The shifter in my liner is also on the left but the front drive shaft takes up the right side.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on August 28, 2019, 12:19:02 PM
Sorry to hear of your injury Sid: keep that man away from sharp objects and cutting implements.

John; I made an enquiry a while ago as to why so many single seater race cars have the shifter on the right as I thought there might be some convention involved.

I was told it was related to the Hewland box design only.
My exhaust is on the right and might be in the way of a R.H. shifter but in truth I am more used to driving on the correct side of the road, manual gear box shifter is therefore on the left.

You guys all drive autos anyway so you would have to learn a manual shift whichever side it was on? Insert disparaging remarks about the mother country, its colonies, and some other enlightened countries (all RHD) here.

I think the French for left sums it up nicely: gauche.  :evil:

On a more serious note: radiator top hose is inches above the head, photo perspective doesn?t make that clear.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on September 08, 2019, 02:29:16 PM
Question about suspension please: what is a reasonable assumption regarding bump and rebound at the wheels?

Is one to one and a half inch of wheel travel in bump reasonable or excessive?

It?s  been a full weekend (8 hours a day) of DIY so all I can do is think about the next phase of the Lakester.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on September 08, 2019, 03:44:34 PM
Question about suspension please: what is a reasonable assumption regarding bump and rebound at the wheels?

Is one to one and a half inch of wheel travel in bump reasonable or excessive?

It?s  been a full weekend (8 hours a day) of DIY so all I can do is think about the next phase of the Lakester.

John


   John on my car before i went to rigid in the front I had 1 inch of travel. This worked well on the runways we ran on which had various areas with surface transitions as well as on the salt.  The rear suspension has no more than 1-1/2 inches travel. I never experienced any suspension issues related to bump or rebound with the above listed movements. 
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on September 08, 2019, 03:51:37 PM
Thanks RR
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 01, 2019, 10:06:17 AM
A little bit of progress at the rear.

The axle is an old one being used for location and packaging purposes.
The remote oil takeoff solved the problem of the oil filter poking through the chassis rail.

4 bar / rear suspension mock-up is evolving; the rear cover on the axle is a beefy casting that has watts linkage mounts integral - the watts linkage rocker is not in the pic - that's a brass block while I was weighing up watts linkage proper vs. sliding block - watts is ahead with link arms around 6 or 7" each side - I was swayed to watts at SW seeing how successful cars can have really short link arms - it was that length that was worrying me.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 01, 2019, 10:07:07 AM
A couple more.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: salt27 on October 01, 2019, 12:32:42 PM
John, your mockup differential looks as if it's already visited Bonneville.   :wink:

Nice work,  Don
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 01, 2019, 01:27:56 PM
Hey John. Your cage gussets need to have an open corner, weld the tubing then put the gusset in. (page 36) It also looks like you might need to turn up your welder for more penetration with tacking so you won't have to come back & grind them out on the final weld.
Was this year your first to the salt?
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 02, 2019, 10:37:16 AM
Thanks Don - I had not thought of it like that - pre-rusted - saves time.

Sid - welder - noted, thanks - I will be paying someone to weld up the tubes properly (the roll structure forward of the firewall is already tigged). Rear structure is all my work to date. The shoulder gussets do have the corners sliced off, maybe not enough.

We were spectators on the salt in 2017 and guests (in Geoff 7707 pits) in 2019 and used this years trip to do a lot of research as we now have a much better idea of what we don't know.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 02, 2019, 11:17:51 AM
Fair enough Mate, sounds like you're on it!
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 14, 2019, 06:48:56 AM
Watt's that on the back of the axle?  :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on October 14, 2019, 12:50:12 PM
Nicely done, John. What are your plans for the front axle?

BTW, I failed to answer a question you asked about bump values. I run a low ground clearance car (2?) so anything over .500? of bump travel is excessive.

BTW(2), I am replacing my 1:1 damper arrangement, with a rocker. I can now easily move from 2:1 to a 1.5:1 ratio. This should give me more flexibility without changing spring rate. It cleans things up a great deal too.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 15, 2019, 04:39:22 AM
Thanks John
I am ignoring the front axle and hoping for a light bulb moment - triangulating the lower 4 bars vs. sliding block  :|

I played around with the shock / spring rocker and went for 1.66 on the rear as the arc traveled translated into just shy of 1.5:1 but I suspect the angle of the push rod off the axle to the rocker and the starting angle of the rocker also makes a difference here. I am just waiting for the coil overs to arrive so I can mock that part up properly.
The rocker: I want to take the input (push rod) from outside the rear chassis tube but translate to the output (shock) inside the chassis rail - I could go on a diagonal over the chassis tube through a 'traditional' rocker but am experimenting on using a short shaft with arms each end - one end splined to allow for altering the relative arm angles - probably a rabbit hole.

My rear axle is English Ford Capri and the new pigs head and axle tubes should be here soon with bespoke axle end flanges and two piece half shafts (wheel flange is splined and bolted so can be altered) to mount a chevy brake back plate, for 5 stud wheels.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on October 15, 2019, 11:44:48 AM
John:

Passing along a tidbit from Tom Burkland about my four-link front axle; Tom reckons that if you have less that 10 degrees of freedom in axle movement, there could be binding. A solution would be to triangulate either upper or lower links to form a three link with a high misalignment rod end (a big one). I checked mine and with just one inch of travel at either corner, I have more than 10 degrees.

As it turns out, 1.5:1 is going to be my motion ratio. 2:1 was a bit too much.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 23, 2019, 04:38:31 AM
Thanks for the heads up John.

Continuing to work up the rear end; spring rate is a wild (insert rear end synonym of your choice) guess but since I had one unused 400 lb spring left over from the '56 project that seemed like a good starting point; buy one more of those and see how much deflection I get with and without various pre-load and see what that says. I will probably then have two unused 400's to trial the front end.  :lol:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on October 23, 2019, 07:51:20 AM
John:

Things are really coming along well on your lakester. Love the location planned for rear dampers too.

I think you will find that first blush on spring rates will be woefully too low. I ran into this as well. I come from a road racing background so I used springs I had from those cars. 350 lbs at front and 700 lbs at rear. I weighed the car and had 275 lbs right an left front and about 750 lbs per corner at rear. That was far too little spring rate and I paid a big price for this mistake. I was shooting for less than one inch travel but had way more than that. So, I will now use 400 lbs springs up front through a 1.5:1 rocker ratio that should yield around 600 lbs per corner with the same 700 lbs springs at rear from last time and 900 lbs springs in reserve, just in case.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 23, 2019, 10:36:08 AM
John
I suspect you are right about the rates - its a place to start - I went for 2.25" shock bodies as the available spring rate range is much greater than the 1.9" bodies.

However, I want to challenge your math (for my own understanding).

If you have one inch of push rod / rocker movement and your rocker is 1.5:1 are you then moving the shock 1.5" or are you moving it 1/1.5 i.e. less travel which is implied by your suggestion a 400lb spring is giving you an effective 600lb?

1" of single wheel bump in my application is a little over 1/2" at the push rod (it is inboard and I have wide-ish track) which is why I am multiplying up.
Complicating factor is that 1" at both wheels in bump (i.e. both of them over a ridge) is 1" at the push rod and therefore 1.5" at the shock so I have to leave room for that two wheel bump possibility to have spare stroke in the shock and / or put bump stops on the axles.

I haven't got a clue about vehicle weight (unsprung) yet. I think I am adding way too much structural steel tube but if some is good more might be better - I will not need to add lead and it should be strong.
Assuming it was, for ease of math, 2000 lb and 50:50 weight distribution that's 1000 lb each end or 500 lb per wheel.  With my bell crank leverage advantage that would need a 750 lb spring, less some pre-load by winding the shock collar up so I am guessing around 600 - 650 lb inch springs per corner in this scenario.

As an aside - I read somewhere with push rod / pull rod suspension adjust the ride height on the push rod, not the spring seat as that would alter the lever / bellcrank starting position and therefore the arc it travels potentially changing from rising rate to falling rate etc..

My scenario seems consistent with the rates you are proposing though you have more weight rearward than I am expecting - I will have a driveshaft at ~ 14" so my engine is a bit further forward - you are using a transaxle I think.

Anyone else with a similar setup please feel free to share you experiences here as its not too late to be told I have misunderstood  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on October 23, 2019, 11:00:11 AM
Your understanding of my spring rates is correct. Also, a 2000 pound total weight assumption is going to be close. If you can create some level ground, four good bathroom scales that weigh up to 600 pounds should give you decent corner weights. If you can borrow digital scales, all the better.

My front rockers are built to put dampers as close to 90 degrees as possible. If not, I would have to calculate sine of the angle to get a proper rocker ratio. Probably why engineers are telling you to adjust the push rod (hypotenuse) which is the longest part of their suspension links. Take a look at Stainless?s front suspension. Everything is in right angles so he will enjoy damper movement (spring compression) for the rocker ratio he has chosen. The rest of us often have to compromise this because the car was originally built with a different suspension in mind.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Interested Observer on October 23, 2019, 12:51:30 PM
It might be good to review a couple of things at this point.
Spring RATE and Spring LOAD are two entirely different things.  To hold up the car you need spring load.  To control how quickly the load varies with suspension movement, one would choose the appropriate spring rate.  The spring load is adjusted by the amount of static preload in the spring (if the set up allows preload adjustment, otherwise the load is simply the load that results from holding up the car).

Also, if the suspension system utilizes linkages that interpose a leverage ratio between the wheel and the spring, the load goes as the leverage ratio, but the spring rate goes as the SQUARE of the leverage ratio.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 23, 2019, 01:52:37 PM
Good comment IO, as you said the rate is the sq. of the ratio. Makes a difference. My preference is for a soft and subtle suspension so our rear shocks, which are attached directly to the rear axle assembly use 125# springs and I set the ride height such that the bump rubber is about 1 inch from the end of travel. The thinking here is that we will have a soft travel for +or- about an inch and then if we get on the bump it will prevent the suspension from going full hard.

Our front suspension is actually a falling rate arrangement, not my actual plan but mainly to get the shocks inside the body. Once I got the shocks mounted inside the body I worked out a lever/link/rocker system that connected the shocks to the front axle and it turned out falling rate. To counter that I again use a fairly stiff bump rubber and 400 # springs with about 1 inch of travel at the selected ride height. One of the good things about having shocks that uses  an adjustable link is that you can set the spring preload and then change the ride height with the link and not affect the preload.

Our car is quite light, 175 # per wheel on the front and about 375#per wheel on the rear for a total weight of around 1100# less Duke. Good for quick acceleration.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on October 23, 2019, 03:29:12 PM
It may also be good to note that cars designed for higher ground clearance require a very different suspension setup than those with low ground clearance. I will run between 2 and 2 1/2 inches of static ground clearance so my springs must hold desired ride height at speed and still give me maybe a little more than one half inch travel. I use rocker ratio to gain a bit more damper travel so they have half a chance of controlling spring occilations. When I ran with a 1:1 front motion ratio, I needed one inch of spring travel for dampers to work at their best. I thought 700 pounds of total front spring was enough but I was grossly mistaken. The car compressed springs more than one inch, forcing us to keep raising ride height until it stopped bottoming. This was a big worry. At some point, if the nose is too high, too much air finds its way under the car. Not sure what actually caused the spin but elevating front ride sure did not help.

Lastly, we hardly speak of wheel rates and that is probably more important than corner weight.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on October 24, 2019, 03:02:03 AM
Brilliant, thanks for the discussion guys.

I/O - I hadn't yet clocked the spring rate leverage point so that's good to catch now  :cheers:
Darn there are some clever people on this forum and that is why the build diary is invaluable - it reduces the degree to which one does idiot stuff - a bit like the building regulations in the UK - there to (try and) protect idiots from themselves.

A nominally softer spring with more pre-load (these shocks have inches of adjustment) is probably the right balance to get the load and rate close to start. Very Colin Chapman. My '69 Europa had a better ride than most modern 'sporting' cars especially the Germans who have immaculate autobahns and dial the suspension to Flintstone, yet the Europa cornered with enthusiasm. I guess if you are already on the ground you cant have body roll.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on October 24, 2019, 11:45:17 AM
John, it is not an easy task designing and building a workable suspension for our narrow cars. Lots and lots of compromises. Two different approaches can be seen in the Das Bullet and Seth Hammond lakesters. Das Bullet has a more contemporary formula car push rod while Seth utilizes a direct rocker arrangement. Das Bullet cannot fare in his suspension but Seth can and does. So, it appears the compromise is how much perfection you can generate for your suspension without sacrificing aero. Always a quandary.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 04, 2019, 10:11:02 AM
My design (and I use that term loosely) has the rearmost chassis (around the rear axle) narrower than the main chassis so that the maximum width is afforded for the 4-bars, mounted outboard of that structure.

My sketches accommodated this by acting on the rear shocks via a pivot that takes the load from the axle (outboard) and transfers across the chassis tube to the shock (inboard). There is not enough room either side of the axle pigs head to mount the shocks vertically or simply laterally across the chassis.

Now that I have mocked that up and stared at it I am nervous of the torsional load through the 5/8" pivot arm. The advantage of this set-up is that the end of the 5/8" rod is a spline and a standard steering joint is used to attach the shock lever arm - that means the relationship between the shock arm and the axle arm can be altered.

Mock-up pics follow.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 04, 2019, 10:17:19 AM
Plan B was then mocked up which uses a more traditional push rod style rocker mounted diagonally across the top of the chassis rail.
This is much more direct but it means that some structure will have to sprout from the chassis rail to pickup the outside load (i.e. that the 5/8" pivot bolt  is supported by). All this has at the moment is the bracket, badly scalloped, tacked to the rail.

I could take the push rod from the inboard side of the chassis rail but that would be picking up too far toward the centre line for my taste - fine for two wheel bump but not great for single wheel bump.

Pics of this crude mocked up follow.

Plan C might just be a horizontal shock that runs across the chassis (laterally, not longitudinally) with each offset, one facing rearwards slightly and the other forwards.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 04, 2019, 11:38:52 AM
Plan C would seem the most logical & create considerably less load on the chassis mount point plus remember the KISs theory Mate! With the narrow suspension width & high CG, you'll need a big a$$ sway bar to eliminate body roll/yaw. Now's the time to design that in.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Jack Gifford on November 04, 2019, 10:53:43 PM
I also like plan C. If you have a reason to prefer plan A, how about just up-sizing the 5/8" shafts?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on November 04, 2019, 11:05:15 PM
John, Plan C looks like rockers are in single shear. Is that correct? If so, can you run dampers at 90 degrees to centerline of chassis? That way, you could put rockers in double shear with well supported brackets.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on November 05, 2019, 02:44:06 AM
Sid:

You got me thinking about roll control (or the lack thereof) with a beam axle. Sway bars for push or pull rod suspensions can be fit inside a narrow chassis but the push rods themselves are out in the airflow. Beam axles like most of us use up front could employ sway bars but for them to work, they too would be out in the airflow. Reaching WAY back in my memory, I remember using dual-rate springs in place of linear rate, to gain a significant amount of roll control without sway bars. I wonder if this may work for our beam axles?

One remaining issue is lack of spring and damper control when my now very wide front track experiences bump on one corner but not the other. There is 20? from push rod to spindle so when just one wheel is in bump, the push rod hardly moves. One of the reasons I went with a 1.5:1 rocker ratio. I just wonder if dual-rate springs would help?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 05, 2019, 03:46:39 AM
Sid / John

If a watts linkage setup has the roll centre (and / or center) at the pivot bolt (centre of the axle rear case) what does the push rod arrangement do to it? Pretty much all of the performance cars using push rod have the shocks mounted high and flat - how do they counter? Is that why some push rod setups have a heave spring 'linking' the two bellcranks?

Accepting this is a solid axle (front and rear) but for reference, from what I can figure out a pull rod arrangement (rocker low down) on unequal double wishbones does not seem to affect static roll centre but a push rod (bellcrank up high) moves it vertically but I cant figure out why.

Something of a case of me monkey see monkey do - has the monkey slipped on a banana skin?  :oops:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 05, 2019, 03:54:32 AM
Plan B is single shear but only because it was enough of a mock-up to eyeball the relative (lack of) merits of the two options, not the finished article.

I will mock-up plan C this weekend. If it works it will be much easier to provide robust pivot brackets (mounted on the chassis rail). I thought the shocks were too long for this option but then I realised with the springs on they were fully extended - talk about tunnel vision. Urgh.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 05, 2019, 12:24:05 PM
Sid:

You got me thinking about roll control (or the lack thereof) with a beam axle. Sway bars for push or pull rod suspensions can be fit inside a narrow chassis but the push rods themselves are out in the airflow. Beam axles like most of us use up front could employ sway bars but for them to work, they too would be out in the airflow. Reaching WAY back in my memory, I remember using dual-rate springs in place of linear rate, to gain a significant amount of roll control without sway bars. I wonder if this may work for our beam axles?

One remaining issue is lack of spring and damper control when my now very wide front track experiences bump on one corner but not the other. There is 20? from push rod to spindle so when just one wheel is in bump, the push rod hardly moves. One of the reasons I went with a 1.5:1 rocker ratio. I just wonder if dual-rate springs would help?

John
There is no reason to have any part of a sway bar or anti roll bar any further out in the breeze than the suspension system.
John's system here is using a pushrod link off the axle so picking up the top of that link for anti roll is easy. If a coil-over is mounted to the axle, a linkage can be in the same location & on the same plane if necessary. If the coil-over was out in the breeze, having a linkage on the same plane ahead of that would actually help reduce the aero drag of that coil-over.
A sway bar or anti roll bar can be anything from small dia that will flex all the way up to a large dia tube that will not, depending on how much or little is desired. The largest one I've built was for a liner & it was 4" tube & 18" long.
One thing to be aware of now that the salt is resembling a plowed field is the amount of stress put on the inner axle tube at the suspension mount point & at the diff head. You have 20" there but there are lakesters with a lot more than that. All axles are at risk but banjo housings like 10 bolt & 12 bolt are a steel tube shrunk into an Iron housing & a quickchange is even weaker with an aluminum bell on the end.
Crack checking front tube axles would be desirable too & this is also why I don't like powder coating.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on November 05, 2019, 03:22:04 PM
OK, but using a Watts link brings with it some degree of roll stiffness depending on where you locate the propeller pivot and may negate a need for sway bars altogether. I would guess most of us with beam axles put that pivot at or close to axle center. My question was if we think more roll control is necessary, would dual-rate springs help in place of sway bars?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Interested Observer on November 05, 2019, 06:38:59 PM
In road racing an anti-roll bar is used to restrain roll motion and still allow the use of relatively soft springing.  For straight line running it is not clear why anti-roll would be useful unless a lot of steering correction (i.e., lateral loading) is an issue or if the suspension were such that it produces noticable roll-steer.

A dual-rate spring package would act like a spring with the composite rate of the two springs in series (softer than either) until the softer spring bottoms out.  Would probably be gentler at the limit than a spring and bump stop.  Whether the bi-linear nature of a dual spring setup would be ?spookier? than an essentially linear A/R bar would be up to the driver to determine.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 05, 2019, 07:12:23 PM
In our application a Watts linkage is used to accurately center the axle in the chassis through the suspension travel distance using the horizontal centerline of the axle for the center pivot, this will not assist in chassis roll resistance, it will only locate the roll center. If it's above or below that centerline it will allow the axle to move sideways from center but we're not running dirt track cars that turn right to turn left so we don't need to go there.
Dual rate springs or progressive rate springs are not going to replace a sway bar. When the weight shifts to one side & loads that spring it will be unloading the other side allowing the chassis to roll. This is particularly undesirable in lakesters & liners due to the narrow wheel track & high CG's we run. It's not as critical in wider wheel track cars but can still make the difference between spinning or making a full pass. A door car that used to be twitchy & had some spins now runs like it's on rails with the only change being a sway bar off the back of a box truck.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 07, 2019, 04:05:20 AM
A door car that used to be twitchy & had some spins now runs like it's on rails with the only change being a sway bar off the back of a box truck.
  Sid.

Sid - you don't state which end that sway bar was fitted on the door car; my understanding is that stiffening the rear will increase over steer (reduce under steer) and so presumably the spin was over steer induced and the sway bar went up front?

Plan C of the rear shock / rocker assembly will be posted after this weekend if the weather plays and I cant do any outdoor DIY. Here's to the rain :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 07, 2019, 10:50:29 AM
Your understanding is correct in a normal world but we don't play there.
We're getting off track into large-barge door cars here which is somewhat of a different animal than high CG lakesters & liners but my theory on the Camaro was that it was wagging the tail & pitching the chassis. When it got too spooky he would pull his foot out of it & increasing the problem with lift-off over steer weight transfer. Some times he would catch it & lose the run & sometimes not. They were willing to try any reasonable suggestions to get it going straight. It already had a big bar on the front & that monster on the back cured it.
Lakesters & liners typically have a long wheel base to track ratio plus a high CG. If they have body roll they act more like a mono-hull boat. When they lean, that creates yaw.
The salt surface is more like snow than blacktop & can be anything from smooth (rarely now) to resembling the entry to the milking shed.
Liners & lakesters are my passion but I've helped a lot of people over the years in getting their "other stuff" stuff to behave on the salt.
  Sid.   
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on November 07, 2019, 12:55:06 PM
Sid:

You mention lakesters as as having high Cg but most small bore lakesters like John?s and mine, have relatively low Cg. In fact, my lakester uses a Hewland Mk9 gearbox turned upside down to put the engine as low in the chassis as possible. John is building a lay down car while mine is semi-lay down (normal formula car config) and as such, enjoy low Cg.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Beef Stew on November 07, 2019, 08:56:36 PM
The Lotus 58 Formula car had a beam axle in front, and a De Dion Tube in the rear. Chapman wanted to have unchanging camber, for maximum mechanical grip. There should be some info available online.

Check-out the Mumford Link. https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/mumford-link-how-you-do-that/41677/page1/  An alternative to a Watts Link. Looks interesting, but little info available. Here's a few photos of a car using it http://texaslocost.homestead.com/Suspension.html From theses photos, it seems like you could use it on a very narrow rear axle.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on November 07, 2019, 10:08:08 PM
I looked closely at the Mumford Link before settling on a Watts but found I did not have room for it on my front axle. Interesting idea, however.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 07, 2019, 11:19:05 PM
Sid:

You mention lakesters as as having high Cg but most small bore lakesters like John?s and mine, have relatively low Cg. In fact, my lakester uses a Hewland Mk9 gearbox turned upside down to put the engine as low in the chassis as possible. John is building a lay down car while mine is semi-lay down (normal formula car config) and as such, enjoy low Cg.

John
I've never been up close to your lakester John, what is the total height, track & CG when it's loaded for bear?
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on November 08, 2019, 06:46:54 AM
John:

Sorry for hijacking your thread. I promise not to do it again.

Sid:

I have made a front track change (wider) and some minor weight distribution readjustments but here is what I had in 2017.

Front track: 33 inches
Rear track: 52 inches
Overall height: 42 inches
Cg: 16.8 inches up and just at my seat

Front track is now 50 inches. I do plan on adding a three foot section to the rear, completing aero back there. This new section will be home to the chute tube as well.

As you can see from the image, everything sits low in the chassis. Due to my robust 6 foot, 230 pound frame (much heavier in off season), the car had to be 42 inches tall. If I had a small driver like lyn when I was building the car, it would have been 14 inches lower overall.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 08, 2019, 11:25:32 AM
John
Hijack away - it is all good info and we are in the same class (albeit sitting at the back) so its relevant. One day we might even meet.

Wow - that Texas Locost (previous post regarding Mumford and Links or is that Sons) is made out of furniture tube compared to my Lakester - maybe I am using too much steel, which leads me to Sid's questions;

1. It is a long way from bear, not even loaded for bear cubs yet so some of the answers are theoretical. Heck, kittens are pretty safe at the moment.
2. The design (again I am using the term loosely) philosophy is wide track with a rounded furry underbelly.
3. That narrowed underside constrains the space lower down so does push some items up a bit in terms of vertical cg. My engine is fairly low, fuel will be saddle tanks either side of the g'box but the radiator is quite tall so that necessitates tank mass (read water) up to and above the top of the engine head.
4. Solid front axle (heavy wall tube) with 4 bars but shocks will be high.
5. Live rear axle (4 bars, watts, shocks a few inches above the pigs head).
6. Total height from the floor to the top of the cockpit ca. 39" vs. 24" width at the shoulders. I have a somewhat upright driving position - true rooky, preferring a comfortable driving position for the sake of a couple of inches of height - I am hoping that helps with the deteriorating salt - that's my excuse and I am sticking to it. Re-attached previous pic to illustrate.
7. 5' 12.5" / 231 lb driver (assuming I can drive naked without a helmet etc) with legs above front axle a la LeMans LMP1.
8. Expecting ~ 20' end to end.
9. Rear axle 48.5" flange to flange so depending on wheel offset and drum brake etc guessing a 52 - 54 " track.
10. Slightly narrower at the front I think but haven't actually measured it. Spindle mounted wheels.
11. Theoretical total weight calculation ca. 2000 lbs.

  :oops:

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 08, 2019, 11:39:49 AM
John, it is a good idea to be fully dressed with all external padding in place for the driver fitting check.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 08, 2019, 11:48:16 AM
That's another fantasy dashed.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on November 08, 2019, 08:35:20 PM
John your drivers cockpit looks excellent. Some thoughts for you for some additional comfort in my car i decided to add padding to the drivers seat i used one inch thick dense foam padding same material used in furniture its green in color here in the states I found the material in a fabric store since its also used in pillows.  From what I can see there looks like plenty of room for you when your fully suited up.  Since the engine is behind you a SFI 15 suit will be fine now if you decide to go with the 20 suit things will get tighter.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 11, 2019, 08:50:15 AM
Ronnie
Its actually quite tight at the hips and shoulders. I have an SFI20 suit. I ordered one from Simpson to pick up whilst passing through LA for work - it was not in stock so they sold me an XL SFI20 for 15 money.
I don't have a comfort issue with this driving position at all but I will have to have the belts altered as the buckle sits between hip and inner cockpit skin and that will bruise.

In fact, in an early bailout test, fully kitted, cinched in by myself, I could not undo the rotary buckle - the inner cockpit skin stopped my elbow going out far enough - it was fine without the panel work - I sat in the garage whimpering quietly wondering if my wife would ever notice I hadn't come in. I managed to loosen a shoulder strap but I don't think that would be appropriate for true bail out.

I will probably change the belts completely to a lever action buckle - they will be a couple of years old before they see tech anyway.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 12, 2019, 03:03:33 AM
Plan C (rear shock mount) it is.

This is a mock up so the bell crank / lever end brackets are just sitting on the chassis rail and the other end is more or less in free space but hopefully the pics make sense of it. The shot without the spring shows the length will work cross chassis with the shock compressed around 1.5". I need to get some bolts that are the right length and make sure everything clears etc.

Plan A was the original assumption but in the flesh it didn't look right.
Plan B was a good compromise and looked balanced - i.e. the line of the shocks was aesthetic but the chassis mount was a bit compromised.
Plan C improves the bell crank to chassis location and potentially opens up the area over the prop shaft for the extinguisher bottles.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on November 12, 2019, 11:14:45 AM
Ronnie
Its actually quite tight at the hips and shoulders. I have an SFI20 suit. I ordered one from Simpson to pick up whilst passing through LA for work - it was not in stock so they sold me an XL SFI20 for 15 money.
I don't have a comfort issue with this driving position at all but I will have to have the belts altered as the buckle sits between hip and inner cockpit skin and that will bruise.

In fact, in an early bailout test, fully kitted, cinched in by myself, I could not undo the rotary buckle - the inner cockpit skin stopped my elbow going out far enough - it was fine without the panel work - I sat in the garage whimpering quietly wondering if my wife would ever notice I hadn't come in. I managed to loosen a shoulder strap but I don't think that would be appropriate for true bail out.

I will probably change the belts completely to a lever action buckle - they will be a couple of years old before they see tech anyway.


   John seeing your tight by the shoulders and hip I think you will find after a few runs those areas f the body will have some bruising and feelings of some pain. In my car I experience that along the lower areas of the body being so tight in the car once the belts are set.  About the belt release system no matter what type of belt you use when the good until date has been reached you will find the belts can be sent back to the manufacturer for whats called a reweb the cost is always less than a new set and I find each time I have had this done the belts are like new when returned.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on November 13, 2019, 09:08:17 AM
The rotary works well in door cars and cars with lots of elbow room... not so much in narrow cars... unless you have an extra joint between the elbow and wrist  :?
As said, you will have a few dents in you after a week of driving... the Bockscar bruised every driver including our thinnest, Pork Pie.  You won't want padding unless you are a lot smaller than the car... every bit of room helps.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on November 13, 2019, 10:06:15 AM
... every bit of room helps.

Amen to that.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stan Back on November 13, 2019, 10:06:37 AM
We fixed a 3-inch piece of 1-inch wood dowel to the end of the latch "tab".  It's much easier to find when you want to pull it.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 13, 2019, 10:39:40 AM
Brilliant stuff - if I get a weeks driving and there are a few bruises to show for it I will be over the moon. My big fear is spending time in the pits. It is a long way from the UK.

The car is not larger than me - I have my own padding. I do bruise rather easily though so that could be a picture at the end of the week.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 19, 2019, 07:18:59 AM
You know how sometimes you spend a few hours (or in my case elapsed CD's) in the garage and you come away feeling very pleased with yourself?

Saturday; I bolted up the rocker arms (for the rear shocks) on the bench with brackets etc. and spent ages measuring and aligning until I was ready to spot them onto the chassis rails. Brilliant; coffee, a walk with the dog, happy boy. Out I go Sunday morning to disassemble them and add fillets etc. to brace the loads and you guessed it, all the bolt heads were facing 'inwards' and could not be extracted past the assembly next to them so some of the mounting tabs had to come off.  :cry:

I don't have the wheels mounted yet but pivoting on / near the axle end flanges with one wheel bump of 1.6" gives me 2" of shock stroke. That's not the full track width so the ratio will reduce but I am pleased I am working the shock in a meaningful way. Spring load and rate will be interesting too.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Peter Jack on November 19, 2019, 11:54:43 AM
That's one of the main reasons we use little tiny TIG tacks!  :-D :-D :-D

Keep up the nice work.

Pete
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: bones on November 20, 2019, 10:43:48 PM
I can't  tell from the pictures, but the shock linkage looks like it will go past 90deg when the shock
     is fully compressed.
    Bones
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 21, 2019, 08:42:47 AM
Bones - thanks for the observation / catch; I didn't notice the angles  when I was manually activating the rockers but I will do some meaningful evaluation once I have the new rear axle tubes and wheels in place to make sure nothing binds or over centres etc.

I was hoping to have the rear axle back by now - all I can do for now is make all the rear brackets in anticipation and move on to somewhere else. I'll come back to this in the future. I don't want to start the front end until I have learned all the lessons from the rear end (no double entendre intended).
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 02, 2019, 08:47:04 AM
I did a manual check - 90 degrees at the bump stop on the shock but that wont be reached in action.

I have mocked up all the axle brackets but am still waiting for the new rear axle to tack them to so I started on  the rearward structure (supporting the chute, push bar etc).

To get the main rearward central tube aligned I started by aligning the dummy axle as much as I could so I could take triangulated measurements from that but for the life of me I couldn't centre it, then realised the Watts linkage was mocked up.  :oops: At least I know it works.

I ended up with plumb lines, string lines and a laser level. I havent reverse measured it to the axle yet (fear of what I might find probably).
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 11, 2019, 05:28:13 AM
I am struggling to find good pictures of the relationship of a (single) parachute tube and the tether line anchor point. I have searched the forum and am still somewhat in the dark regarding best practice.

My best option so far seems to be a 6"OD seamless alloy tube with 0.16" wall.

I am building the rear support structure - as I see it there are at least three options to tether the lines:

1. at the front end of the chute tube (i.e. inside the tube). Cons: its potentially getting chewed by the rear lip of the tube if it flaps.
2. Under the chute tube opening, behind the tube. Pros; apart from a short length of steel (push bar) there is nothing to rub on. Cons; the tether line is doubling back on itself prior to deployment so has to travel through 180 degrees on the anchor.
3. Under the chute tube but forward of the opening. Pros; it is already in the correct orientation so cannot hang up on any bracketry as it swivels through 180 degrees (per option 2). Cons; I wont have too much clearance from the underside of the chute tube so it could rub on that during slowdown if the chute flaps up and down.

If anyone can provide some clear pics of a tried and tested relationship (tube / anchor) on a lakester / liner that bodily comes to a point in that area; that would be hugely appreciated.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on December 11, 2019, 07:49:39 AM
John, as I see it, your first task is to figure out the height of your center of mass. Your tether mount should be placed accordingly. That's what I did and I really feel comfortable when my chute hits. I have pictures in my build diary.
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on December 11, 2019, 08:26:58 AM
John, look on page 5 of the Build Diaries at Utah Belly Tank. Page 3 has some pictures.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on December 11, 2019, 09:45:45 AM
John, I would not do a through the tube attachment... IMO that creates a lever that can move your car around.  There are a lot of cars that do it that way, but we are outside attachment guys.  We have never had a problem with the tether laying at the bottom of the tube causing a problem, except that it adds several cubic inches of space requirement. 
Our design makes the chute tube structural, the old one was and Pork Pie said this one must be also, so I could not use an alloy tube.  (see build diary)
The tether has never worn or rubbed on the tube and the push bar is above the tube so no issue there either.  Our attach point is in the middle of the mass. 
Draw a line through the center of your mass in the car, the center of the motor and adjust it based on where battery and water mass is located.  This should be very close to where the chute should attach.
Here is a Pork Pie pic of our car
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 11, 2019, 10:23:33 AM
Wayno
Thank you for the direction. I just read your entire build diary and almost missed a work call as a result, they do not understand priorities!

Stainless
Thank you. I will go look for the diary.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 16, 2019, 07:03:03 AM
I did some research based on Wayno's comment (first find the height of your centre of mass) aka Centre of Gravity Height aka CGH and Stainless comments about masses.

With that awareness I did some research and came across a calculator for finding CGH on the interweb in the Longacre Racing website - hope this link works and is useful to others wondering this:

http://www.longacreracing.com/technical-articles.aspx?item=42586

I also came across a video by VTEC Academy that showed some drag and LSR cars with front or rear wheels off the ground (it was mostly focusing on Honda Civics and CRZ's) and that had some data suggesting long chute lines /small chute would be a low angle (from tether mount through CGH) vs. short lines / large chute at a higher angle.

They had 45' lines at 3 degrees vs. 20' lines at 8 degrees.

First pass calculation based on some extrapolated weight assumptions would be a 32' line for Squeeze of Lemming so around 5 degrees angle - hope my CGH does not turn out to be high or too far forward or I will be mounting the tether line half way up the tail fin  lol8

Thanks Wayno and Stainless for guiding me to be able to ask the right questions of Mr. Google.  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 16, 2019, 07:31:24 AM
I printed out the Pork Pie pic of Bockscar 1 and although it was quite small scale I make the tether line angle 3 degrees.

Is the chute line length from attachment to the back of the chute or to where they attach to the chute .....?

By making some ill-informed Bockscar dimension assumptions I get the chute length from attachment to the back of the chute at 33' - does that sound about right?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Interested Observer on December 16, 2019, 08:33:16 AM
Lemming:  While the Longacre method of CG determination is useful for a completed car, perhaps in your case with only a partially finished car another method may be more useful.  This would consist of calculating the moments of various components about a chosen location relative to the car, and then resolving those into an average.  For instance, choosing a convenient coordinate system reference point, perhaps at ground level, rear axle centerline and chassis centerline with x going forward, y going vertically, and z going laterally to the right side of the car, one can do the following:  for each significant mass, identify its mass amount (or weight) and the coordinate position of its individual CG.  If you are only concerned about the height of the composite CG, only y coordinates need be addressed, however, the same process can be used to find the longitudinal CG location by doing the same for x coordinates, etc.  Once the ?masses? and locations are identified, the following calculation will yield the coordinate of the composite CG.    Xe = (m1x1 + m2x2 + ...mnxn)/ (m1 + m2 + ...mn)   Similarly for Ye and Ze.
This, of course, is easily incorporated into a spreadsheet so that as the build progresses and different items are added or accounted for or modified, the new numbers are easily produced.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on December 16, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
Thanks IO.

I have been keeping a record of weights (actual and calculated) so I can estimate CG in the X axis (front to rear) and am keeping an eye on that.
I see what you mean about calculating their moments in the y (vertical) to get the CGH - I had not thought of that.

I am waiting for some engine parts to arrive, the tires from the US are not in my hand yet (Wayno - do you even remember the discussion about you getting yours so quickly months ago - its a long saga) and my rear axle is not finished so I was planning ahead to keep myself occupied.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on December 16, 2019, 11:31:42 AM
I was lucky. Building everything myself, if I got held up on one thing there was always something else to work on.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on December 16, 2019, 12:49:02 PM
John when my car was configured as a Lakester and now as a RMR I attached the chute tether to at a point that was no higher than the crankshaft center line. Upon chute deployment at speeds over 220 MPH theres no feeling of the car being disrupted in any manner especially no nose lift.
 As a lakester using the chute in tube design the tubing I used was irrigation piping used in farming. The aluminum tubing is a large enough diameter to allow easy chute packing with plenty of length as needed. I located a company that sold new and used irrigation supplies they sold me a length of pipe to fit what I was doing. Maybe some farmers in your area would have some pipe like that available for a small price.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 20, 2020, 07:05:41 AM
The rebuilt rear axle finally arrived (new axle tubes, different end flange) so it was time to add some brackets and mock thinks up properly.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 20, 2020, 07:20:14 AM
The turnbuckle / push rod for the shocks will be moved outward slightly; its not clear in the pic but I mounted it vertically to see if anything binds or contacts. I was pleased to note that at full bump and droop of the wheel (limited by the shock stroke at this stage) everything is in harmony. The push rods will have a better approach to the bell crank in the final iteration.

Something that is obvious if you think it through (which I did not): by having a wide-ish track and the push rods inboard, then on single wheel bump you activate both shocks, the one on the bump side at 100% of the motion ratio and the other one (in my application) nearly 50%. I guess normal cars do this to a much lesser degree but I had never given it any thought - when I hoicked one end of the axle to full stroke it was really obvious given the shocks are side by side mounted across the chassis.

Now - about spring load / rate.

My best strategy is to put a toad in a jar, print out today's horoscope, pick a number between 400 and 1,000 (lb in), turn around twice, stand on one leg while reciting the mantra spring rate and spring load are not the same, play Led Zeps Rain Song really loud (you are the springtime...), fit the springs, release the toad, burn the horoscope, bounce on the fitted end of the car, repeat.

What step am I missing?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on January 20, 2020, 08:15:05 AM
John:

As to spring rate; there are probably better ways to do this but here is how I did it.

First, you need to know corner weights and desired ride height. Calculate actual motion ratio of your rockers (dampers are at some angle other than 90 degrees to rockers so it affects motion ratio. Also remember your rockers work in arcs so how you set them up could give you rising or falling spring rates. You want rising rate and it looks like you have it.) and see how much one inch of vertical axle movement relates to damper movement. If you want to hold a maximum half inch of axle movement in bump, while at speed, you will need a spring rate at least equal to corner weight to start. It helps to have a road racing friend with several spring sets to borrow for this. What you are shooting for is to hold ride height at speed and restrict vertical movement in bump to whatever value you choose.

I made the mistake of setting initial ride height too low and used springs equal to corner weight with a true 1:1 motion ratio. The track was rough and the result was a front end bottoming out with every small bump. I eventually raised ride height sufficiently to keep from bottoming but springs rates were insufficient to hold half inch of vertical travel i.e., ride height too high to accommodate axle travel. I now have rockers with an effective 1:1.35 motion ratio giving my 400 pound springs 540 pounds per inch of compression. Last thing is to figure in any spring compression with car on ground. That will add a little spring rate to the mix.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 20, 2020, 10:18:36 AM
Thanks John

I will let the toad go  :-)
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 31, 2020, 10:26:51 AM
Drive (prop) shaft and a related rule book query.

I ordered a custom prop shaft last week and it is in my hands already - it is 15 inches long (nominal) with +/- 1" on the spline.

Rule 3s requires a sling of at least 1/4 x 1 inch - I will probably go much longer than 1 inch and enclose the entire front UJ through about 6" (as he very rear of my fuel tank could get clipped in a drop and whip.

Question: I will probably use 4.5" dia tube x 1/4" wall and connect that to the chassis with 4 struts in a cruciform that can be unbolted - should the struts also be 1/4" or could they be a shade lighter?

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on January 31, 2020, 10:43:19 AM
Could you just convert it to torque tube drive?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 31, 2020, 10:52:33 AM
Neil - Interesting idea but too late for this build I think.

I probably do not need 6" of sling in truth - just enough to span the universal joint is probably adequate but I do not know how that would be viewed in tech - I am assuming the drop and whip is from a UJ coming apart so as long as the shaft is retained ....

In a parallel rule review - all traction bars and trailing links need a 1/4" sling but I don't recall seeing them on cars where they are inside the body work - was I just boy looking?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: bearingburner on January 31, 2020, 03:34:56 PM
If the front universal comes loose you want to contain the thrashing around as much as possible.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Jack Gifford on January 31, 2020, 10:41:13 PM
The safest is a full-length (including both U-joints) of smooth/round-ID steel tube. So your choice is somewhere between that and the rules-requisite containment. I think my choice would be two loops- one just aft of the front joint and one just forward of the rear joint.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: jacksoni on February 01, 2020, 07:31:36 AM
The safest is a full-length (including both U-joints) of smooth/round-ID steel tube. So your choice is somewhere between that and the rules-requisite containment. I think my choice would be two loops- one just aft of the front joint and one just forward of the rear joint.
Like this is I think what Jack is suggesting;
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 01, 2020, 05:02:17 PM
Would it be reasonable to assume that?s a door car so the drive shaft is running next to you or am I misinterpreting the pic?

Mines in a rear engine lakester so the drive shaft and I are not sharing space.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: jacksoni on February 01, 2020, 06:36:17 PM
Actually is a modified sports and yes the driveshaft is beside the seat- ie my butt. But I understand with a rear engine lakester, I posted just to show what I understood Jack G was suggesting. Over kill for you but I have lost a driveshaft at speed and it is not a fun experience, wherever the shaft is. Your idea of two hoops is good.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 01, 2020, 10:13:49 PM
Putting a full tube over it will stop it from eating anything except it's self. Make it a two piece bolt together so you can take the top off for access. Build it as close as you can to the shaft so it can't flail around if it comes un-glued.
Question, are your U-joint angles equal?
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Jack Gifford on February 01, 2020, 11:24:52 PM
Yes, Jack, your shield looks great. I'm familiar with that from pulling, where the shaft was between my legs (no U-joints, but 900 HP & 9,000 RPM). :-o
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: jacksoni on February 02, 2020, 08:14:06 AM
Yes, Jack, your shield looks great. I'm familiar with that from pulling, where the shaft was between my legs (no U-joints, but 900 HP & 9,000 RPM). :-o
[/quote In spirit of full disclosure, I didn't design or build it. But I do drive it!!!
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 02, 2020, 09:47:55 AM
I think I have found a source of 1/4" tube that is of an appropriate diameter but I have not figured out how to mount it as it will have to move with the rear axle in bump and rebound; as such something that envelopes the UJ at the gearbox end and an oval loop at the diff end might be my best approach - contain both ends but especially the gearbox end UJ so it does not molest the fuel tank (should it get dizzy and make a bid for freedom).

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 02, 2020, 09:52:40 AM
Rear axle push-rod location version 2.

Much better solution for several reasons than the original mock-up. It is not obvious from the pic but the bolt is supported by a tube that is attached at each end passing through the plate that reinforces the back of the upper 4 bar mount.

I am getting some oversize washers turned up in the shape of top hats - this will allow some rod end articulation (hat, 18mm) and be large enough diameter (rim, 30 mm) to retain them should they come apart - about 1/4" thick in total.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 02, 2020, 12:23:53 PM
Cut it in half & add pie shape pieces to oval the back for pinion travel & cross member mount it out to the chassis. Drop the suspension links, jack up the axle & the shaft can come out below the pumpkin or make the top a bolt on.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 07, 2020, 03:19:33 AM
Thanks guys - I have found a suitable 1/4" tube and will slice and dice it - mmm - pie.

On an unrelated note - I cant find anything in the rules excluding medium density fibre board for the construction of fuel tanks.  cromag
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 07, 2020, 03:24:32 AM
This ones for Wayno - after 10 months (you read that correctly) some tires arrived from the US, BUT, the fronts are not as ordered so this saga is ongoing.  :cry:

One day I shall write a book on what can go wrong and the reasons (excuses) given by purchasing through a third party anticipating a combined shipment to offset the costs a little.

I think the term false economy applies here,
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Peter Jack on February 07, 2020, 08:51:21 AM
No one will even notice once you get the aluminum coloured paint on it!  :-D :-D :-D

What's the capacity? Remember, you don't necessarily need a lot of volume. Having to fill it after every run to ensure not running out is probably a good thing.

Pete
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on February 07, 2020, 10:12:21 AM
John, just use a glue that is not affected by race gas or alcohol  lol8  :evil:  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 07, 2020, 10:26:15 AM
Thanks Pete, Stainless - I will take that as an endorsement of the MDF strategy.

In terms of volume; its tapering towards the bottom so its an odd shape - I will do the math now its physical and I can take measurements of what actually fits but I figure I could also put a plastic bin liner in it and add water to validate. I am aiming for 2 - 3 US gallons (the small 4 litre ones, not our are manly 4.55 litre gallons).

If I have calculated and converted my air consumption (at 14:1) and accounted for the specific gravity of the fuel correctly I am estimating 3 litres per run so 2 US gallons makes sense? Its a 2 litre, naturally aspirated and assuming 8,500 rpm.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on February 07, 2020, 10:40:59 AM
John, my  tank is about 3 gallons... the G motor uses about a gallon...
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 07, 2020, 10:46:50 AM
Thanks Stainless - thirsty wee blighter; I calculated 3/4 of a gallon (i.e. 3 litres) so in the right ball park.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 07, 2020, 12:04:30 PM
It is good to have some extra to burn to run the engine and keep it warm while waiting in line to start.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 07, 2020, 05:07:15 PM
I did some drawings and calculated just over 18 litres (4.5 US gallons).

I put a bin liner in from one open end and got to 15 litres (liner full and didn?t burst which was a relief) with room to spare so that was just shy of 4 gallons of water.

I may shave a few inches off the end where it tapers and call it quits at 4 gallons.

Thanks everyone, really appreciate the inputs.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on February 07, 2020, 08:24:49 PM
Thanks Stainless - thirsty wee blighter; I calculated 3/4 of a gallon (i.e. 3 litres) so in the right ball park.

If you want all your horses to run you have to feed them. The 1.5 L motor went 246mph
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on February 07, 2020, 08:55:54 PM
Yea, we didn't feed that one enough..... it only ran 8 miles... managed to go a bit lean...  still got a record so how can you complain...  :wink:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 12, 2020, 05:56:24 AM
Prop shaft shield. I would like to say curses  aktion086 to all who recommended a 100% containment shield - that was a lot of work in 1/4" especially since it isn't a straight run, getting those intersections right took some thought and a cunning plan using a 6" pvc pipe, quartered lengthwise to pattern it.

Having said all that I am pleased I went this route.  :cheers:

Seams (with bolts) and mounting the lower half to the chassis to follow.

In one of the pics you can just see the fibreboard tank, now in silver  8-)
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on February 12, 2020, 09:56:53 AM
 I would suggest you replace a weld seam with several bolt tabs so that thing comes apart... Looks like it could be a bear when you wrestle it later
 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 12, 2020, 12:30:40 PM
Gotcha.

The top 'half' will include the half tube and the pie shape all welded together.
The bottom 'half' will just be the half tube - attached to the chassis.

The two 'halves' will have a longitudinal strip welded to each along the length of the join line with four 3/8" bolts each side.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 13, 2020, 12:11:50 AM
A mishap that requires 1/4 inch steel to contain might need more than eight 3/8 inch bolts.  Eight 1/2 or 5/8 inch ones is my uneducated guess.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 13, 2020, 09:09:04 AM
In fairness the rules only require a 1/4" x 1" strap / sling part way back from the front of the shaft so all this containment is following the

school of engineering (and life).
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: 7707 on February 13, 2020, 04:59:06 PM
John. Remember rules for safety are a minimum. I have seen a driveshaft break and I tell you it made a real mess. A piece of steel flapping around at X rpm can destroy anything near it. Over engineered is safer.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on February 13, 2020, 10:08:02 PM
John, if you use grade 5 3/ 8 bolts and nuts your welded tabs will give up before you pop a bolt.  Keep going you are building a great lakester.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 14, 2020, 02:48:26 AM
Thanks Geoff, Stainless

If that prop shaft starts flapping around and hurts my containment shield I will be very cross; apart from the fact the 1/4" wall tube cost more to courier than to buy it has been a lot of graft to get it to this stage - the prop shaft on the other hand only took an email and a week later it magically appeared.

I was planning to get the fuel tank made in something with a slightly lower leak rate than the fibreboard version but the guy I spoke to has not come back to me after two weeks - how do these places stay in business?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: 7707 on February 14, 2020, 04:21:58 PM
If you need an aluminium tank welded up contact : Nick Davies at I C E Automotive. They are based at Silverstone and are top class guys. Nick and Rob are my main crew guys on 7707.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 25, 2020, 10:18:48 AM
With the fuel tank mocked up (and now being made) it seemed like a good time to think about fuel lines and as importantly finding a home for the pump and filters.

The entire assembly will be removable as a unit once complete.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 25, 2020, 10:29:43 AM
I now have a natural platform for the fire bottle mounts, BUT, all the literature says they should not be mounted nozzle forwards as in a head on the contents will surge forward and the dip tube will be unable to pickup.

Is there any prohibition to aligning them nozzle forward as in reality a head on is less likely than a spin or a barrel roll and apart for the short period when a chute blossoms (and I am thinking I will be too busy then to pull fire handles) there isn't much deceleration (unless it goes nose in during an endo).

The forward location suits me better for many reasons. There will be two 10 lb bottles side by side.

I found a pic of a Seth Hammond Lakester front suspension area and that has a bottle lying flat with the nozzle forwards which makes me think it is not so much of an issue on the salt?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 25, 2020, 11:44:06 AM
John,
Good to see good progress on your lakester. Looking at your fuel pump set up it appears that you may be planning to connect the inlet port of the pump to the filter that is to the right of it. You may want to rethink the use of a banjo fitting on the pump inlet and especially if you plant to draw fuel through an inlet filter. The filter should be larger and absolutely with a filter element not smaller than 40 micron, 60 would even be better. Do not use any sort of paper or even fiberglass element in the inlet filter and the inlet line size should be min. of -8. It also looks like you may be mounting the pump above the bottom of your fuel cell which means it will not only have to suck through a filter it will have to lift fuel from the cell also, this could also make you pump lose it's prime. As I have said many times pumps make pressure the do not like to suck. I used the same Bosch pump as you on my lakes roadster and my pump was mounted below the thank and it had a very large filter with a coarse stainless still screen for the inlet. All plumbing was -8. On the inlet side the pump needs as much help as possible.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on February 25, 2020, 12:44:40 PM
John:

How you locate fire bottle heads has to do with what type of bottles you have. I believe Fire Fox uses a bladder that collapses when discharged to push retardant out the head. This system can be mounted in any configuration you like. All others should be mounted head up.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 25, 2020, 02:17:37 PM
Rex; your observations are astute. The pump is high and I did ponder that a lot - it is below the top of the fuel tank (assuming it was full) and about 7" above the outlet/ bottom of the tank. I am assured it can handle that amount of lift but its not ideal. The pre and post filters are the same body but the innards are sized for their location and respective roles - I dont recall the mesh size exactly - they are stainless. The inlet side is all AN8 and downstream is AN6.

The banjo fittings are the only way I can make it fit in this config. I don't really have space for the pre filter and the pump low down with normal fittings - do you think the banjo is restrictive - is that the concern - if yes I may have to go back to the drawing board?

John: I know it is ideal to have the bottle head up or bottom forward but is there are prohibition or is it just good form - I cant see myself having a head on at the moment I want to activate the extinguishers or is that naive?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on February 25, 2020, 02:26:29 PM
John as posted above the Firefox bottles can be in any position since they have an internal bladder this allows the fire retardant to  flow no matter where the outlet is located. If the brand your using has the internal bladder than any position will work. What brand bottles are you using and what is the date on them? From the two pictures I cannot see any brand type or labeling which normally would include the date of manufacture this is an important detail. As per the rules every two years from the original label date they must be re-certified for another two more years and for inspection must be in a location to be seen. 
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 25, 2020, 03:47:15 PM
John,
Look at the size of the two holes in the hollow bolt that secures the banjo to the pump. Compare the area of those to the area of a -8 hose and I think you will see that the banjo is not a good choice. I would much prefer a "sweep" 90 i.e. that is a 90 degree fitting that uses a small length of radius bent tubing to make the 90 degrees. Remember if the pump starts to cavitate when you go to full throttle and motor goes lean the next thing to burn are the piston tops. Even though the pump is a fixed displacement pump and it is pumping gas into the injector system, the pressure regulator valve is returning the unused fuel to the tank and also all pumps leak internally, high pressure side to the low pressure side (the pump inlet) which at low flow demand can prevent the pump from cavitating but when the flow demand increases the amount of fuel circulating internally drops and the demand for additional fuel from the tank increases and at this time it may cavitate. One type of "patch" that is done is to connect the fuel regulator return line to the inlet line of the pump, which can provide enough flow make up to prevent cavitation. With this set up you may experience some heating of the fuel as it picks up heat from the pressure control valve. If you happen to consider this arrangement contact me as there are some specific plumbing configurations that should be used.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on February 25, 2020, 09:25:26 PM
John, just for fun, connect the inlet filter directly the the pump and hold it down along the lower frame... placement is more important than being able to remove as a unit... I'm with Rex, don't like the banjos either...
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 26, 2020, 02:49:11 PM
Thanks guys.
Bottles aren?t labelled as they are empty for fit up. They are Cold Fire from DJ via a UK importer. Figured the backup on the salt and the familiarity at tech was of value.

Will revisit the fuel pump locale; it?s painful to rework but the posting feedback value is worth it and should save later heart ache.

Still struggling to see how the fire bottle nozzle forward is an issue on the salt.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on February 26, 2020, 04:29:53 PM
It is a problem if the pickup in the bottle is on the bottom and you're decelerating hard, like with the 'chute out.  :wink:
 :cheers: Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 27, 2020, 12:20:31 PM
If some bits arrive in time: this weekend I shall mostly be responding to peer pressure by mounting my pre-filter and pump together (thanks for the direction Stainless) and seeing if it will fit in a position closer to the ground and completing my fire bottle mounts with the expectation that a lever action firing pin (as opposed to push action) will allow me to mount them bum forwards.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on February 27, 2020, 01:17:29 PM
Do you know of a lever action firing pin or were you going to make one?
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on February 27, 2020, 02:14:50 PM
If some bits arrive in time: this weekend I shall mostly be responding to peer pressure by mounting my pre-filter and pump together (thanks for the direction Stainless) and seeing if it will fit in a position closer to the ground and completing my fire bottle mounts with the expectation that a lever action firing pin (as opposed to push action) will allow me to mount them bum forwards.



  Are you sure the fire bottles actuate by pushing? The cable system I have the knobs are pulled to fire the bottles.  This allows the trigger pin that was held away from the bottle to now plunge inward thus setting off the system.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on February 27, 2020, 03:46:45 PM
The nozzle end of the bottle is in two parts. One that screws onto the bottle has a burst disc built in. Onto that screws the actuating mechanism with ports for the hard lines when activated.

The mechanism I currently have has a central firing pin that looks like a very large syringe needle. As currently supplied this is plunged into the burst disc by being attached to a push cable (something like an old choke cable if that makes any sense).

The alternate available is a lever action attached to the plunger that would be attached to a pull cable.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stan Back on February 28, 2020, 06:45:31 PM
I always liked the idea of (in a panic), you start pulling things, even if you break them.

Pull the parachute release.

Pull the fire bottles.

Pull the fuel shut off.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 28, 2020, 11:08:38 PM
My preference in a fire emergency (& I've been there twice) is to hit the knob to activate it. With big-a$$ gloves on you have no feel to find things in an emergency but if you pound away in the right area, even in a crash with no visibility, you're bound to find it.
If you don't like the way it works just put a bell crank in to reverse it!
  Sid.
 
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 02, 2020, 09:43:46 AM
I am waiting for an adapter for the fire bottles nozzle trigger. In the meantime I finished the basic mounting assembly though this might be modified to put the nozzle end higher than the base for clearance reasons - probably a better orientation anyway.

I decided to wrap up the plumbing for radiator / tank / vent and took the opportunity when that was all stripped for assembly and paint to put a hole through the firewall for the throttle cable. The 'seal' is a stainless plate with a nitrile rubber gasket.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on March 02, 2020, 10:37:36 AM
Buying a firewall seal can save time compared to fabricating one. I used a blank seal and cut out a hole slightly smaller than my shift rod with a thinwall brass tube. I placed the rubber seal over a wood block and struck the brass tube with a hammer; it cut out a nice round hole. Seals-It makes these grommets in various sized OD and pre-made holes as well as blank ones.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Seals-it-GS1003BL-Blank-Grommet-Seal-3-Inch,385671.html
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 02, 2020, 03:57:10 PM
The firewall seal came from a U.K. company Trigger Handbrakes. They make a variety of sizes and types.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 04, 2020, 03:35:09 AM
Some pics to show the alternatives for actuating the fire bottle as discussed earlier.
Direct push cable (s205) vs. a cap with a lever arm (s207).

In my (to be revised) layout the nozzle end will point rearwards so cables travelling away from the nozzle pass through the suspension and need to U turn back to the cockpit.

One alternative would be to make a new lever and thereby pull towards the base of the bottle (mocked up with the supplied lever reversed in s206). The cable now runs straight to the cockpit.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on March 05, 2020, 07:45:47 PM
John with the nozzle pointing rearward this being the top of the fire bottle means the bottom of the bottle that being the largest diameter is now pointing forward. Being a drop tank shape with the front of the tank being narrow due to the radius of the body wouldn't it be more space fitting efficient to place the nozzle end forward? Building my race car with the limited space in the nose of the drop tank shape by locating the nozzle forward has given me more room to locate other vital systems needed for the car in this  area. I now had additional room to locate forward weight that was needed to get the car balanced in reference to the CP and CG.
 Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 06, 2020, 04:28:24 PM
The tanks are mounted above the prop shaft, I don?t have room up front. To be honest nozzle forward is better for packaging for a number of reasons but I will try and mount them base forward as described by others as a safer arrangement in the event of firing them during a frontal or parachute moment.

Nothing committed yet. Heck, everything has been made at least twice, I just hope I end up with the better of those two builds  :-D
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on March 07, 2020, 02:33:18 PM
The tanks are mounted above the prop shaft, I don?t have room up front. To be honest nozzle forward is better for packaging for a number of reasons but I will try and mount them base forward as described by others as a safer arrangement in the event of firing them during a frontal or parachute moment.

Nothing committed yet. Heck, everything has been made at least twice, I just hope I end up with the better of those two builds  :-D


   Heck John if you only build the car at least twice your doing a lot better than everyone of us who have hand built a race car especially for the salt.  Lets see our cars first event was in 2010 so here we are ten years latter and today in the shop we were working on the body replacing areas not happy with also reworking the air inlet for the engine. But the fun continues with a redesign of the alternator mount and making bracket modifications to re-positioning one of the engine water pumps since the alternator is now in the way a bit.  And its only March. Two argon welding bottles and counting.
   Ronnieroadster
 
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 08, 2020, 12:30:46 PM
Twice is perhaps blinkered on my part (the body forgets pain) and just to get it on its feet - who knows after that.

Stainless - in another thread you referred to your duck billed release lever (harness) - who is the manufacturer please - I will need to get mine made again now I know that rotary does not work with non-double jointed elbows and the hip buckle is inexactly the right place for a masochist.

I have just got a green light from my steering committee to do a bit of a road trip with her in August and include a couple of days in Wendover - cant decide if I want to do a small RV, motels or what and if we go the motel route chances of a double bed in Wendover during SW on an ad hoc basis are slim.  Probably aim for early in the week so unlikely anyone will have gone home. I guess we could commute and see Wells (okay, that's only 10 mins) and SLC.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: 7707 on March 08, 2020, 01:48:17 PM
The rooms have just been released in Wendover. So get online and book.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: bearingburner on March 08, 2020, 05:29:33 PM
They must have moved Wells since I was there if it's only 10 min away now.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on March 08, 2020, 05:33:52 PM
That's from all the salt that (and I quote) has "eroded away" and Wells is sliding downhill toward Wendover.  cromag
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on March 08, 2020, 08:07:10 PM
I thought John meant his wife would only him spend 10 minutes in Wells
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stan Back on March 08, 2020, 08:56:48 PM
I guess she would know his limits.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on March 08, 2020, 09:45:18 PM

Stainless - in another thread you referred to your duck billed release lever (harness) - who is the manufacturer please - I will need to get mine made again now I know that rotary does not work with non-double jointed elbows and the hip buckle is inexactly the right place for a masochist.


I think it is a DJ... but could be Deist... It replaced our old lever when they decided that levers could be snagged by an arm restraint and release unless they were covered or velcro'd.  This was the answer because velcro is hard to manipulate with gloves on.  You stick your finger in the hole and pop it open.   
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 09, 2020, 07:45:43 AM
Thanks for those.

I guess the little duck head also reminds you to miss the roll over bar on exit too - duck or grouse.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on March 09, 2020, 09:47:07 AM
I used a duck bill on my lay down car and it was perfect. You don?t have to see anything to engage it. Easy to feel when you need to unbuckle the lap belt.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 09, 2020, 10:43:28 AM
Back to Wells  :-o

I meant sight seeing in Wells would only take 10 mins and the house of horizontal refreshment had not occurred to me.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 09, 2020, 09:47:35 PM
The local cathouse has a restaurant and coffee shop in a separate building near the freeway.  They make a good breakfast.  Bella's is the name.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on March 09, 2020, 10:14:25 PM
https://bellas.us/ (https://bellas.us/)   :cheers: :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on March 10, 2020, 02:21:44 PM
Learn something new every day!! But that is more than I ever wanted to know about Wells!

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 11, 2020, 07:41:53 AM
When I first ordered my rear tires the Goodyear specification said a 15" diameter rim x 4" width (plus or minus 1"). All I could find in the UK was 15x5 but my tire man has said he would prefer to see them mounted on something narrower.

I found some in the US sold as classic GM rims at 15x4 but they are supplied with dual bolt pattern - I need 4.75" pcd but these also have 4.5" pcd. I guess these might need circumferential welding but they are the best I've found.

Does anyone run dual stud pattern wheels - are they okay with tech? Is here a better source bearing in mind I need a comapny that will ship overseas?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: 7707 on March 11, 2020, 06:04:16 PM
John.. SCHOTT supplied my wheels. Speak to John Beck at Vintage Hot Rods in Chico...he might be able to point you in the right direction.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 12, 2020, 08:50:17 AM
Thanks Geoff, will do.


A bit of progress attached.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 12, 2020, 08:51:25 AM
Tubey.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: 07R1LSR on March 12, 2020, 09:18:23 AM
Nice looking work!
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on March 12, 2020, 10:49:34 AM
Looks like Lemmings are kinda kinky, too!  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 12, 2020, 11:23:50 AM
In reply - I am not doing the header work - sorry if that was implied. I hope its nice - from everything I have read about the engine I have chosen; this guy is the go to for the respiratory side of things (topical reference).

And yes, Lemmings are kinky and pics like that are car porn in our world. I love the build shots that everyone posts.

I visited our manufacturing plant for the first time recently (eye drops etc) and when I discovered we make the plastic dropper bottles on the site (rather than buy them in) I was more interested in watching that machinery do its magic than the actual medicinal properties; oops. Could have spent hours watching the various lines.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Dr Goggles on March 12, 2020, 04:04:12 PM
When I first ordered my rear tires the Goodyear specification said a 15" diameter rim x 4" width (plus or minus 1"). All I could find in the UK was 15x5 but my tire man has said he would prefer to see them mounted on something narrower.

I found some in the US sold as classic GM rims at 15x4 but they are supplied with dual bolt pattern - I need 4.75" pcd but these also have 4.5" pcd. I guess these might need circumferential welding but they are the best I've found.

Does anyone run dual stud pattern wheels - are they okay with tech? Is here a better source bearing in mind I need a comapny that will ship overseas?

If you can find a local wheelwright you can get them to "make" some by combining the centre you want, at the offset you want with the rims you want.

That way you can make your rears so they cover drum brakes and you can use inner and outer moons.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 13, 2020, 05:51:10 AM
In theory that should have been possible but no-one in the UK I could find were doing steel wheels and those that do either will not or cannot narrow (only widen) or have a backlog of work the length of a streamliner. Where have all the traditional skills gone. The UK is weird like that - seems you have to drive long distances to find someone whereas in say NZ there is, for example, a radiator guy in nearly every town. Here they seem to be rare, or, more likely, are not internet types so unless you drive past them you do not know they are there.

I will take Geoff's lead up (the trad hot rod shop) or I can buy the GM Rally wheels but remain nervous of the double stud pattern on each wheel - will that pass tech - I need to email John Borkman on that one if that becomes a probability?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on March 13, 2020, 07:18:21 PM
Can you find a "space saver spare" with the correct size wheel? Then just weld the center?

Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: bearingburner on March 13, 2020, 07:44:10 PM
We used space saver spare wheels on our lakester 5X43/4 '80s GM mid size.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: salt27 on March 13, 2020, 08:02:04 PM
John, I have two 15x4, 5 on 4-3/4 space saver wheels that you can have but you would have to figure out how to retrieve them.

Probably be cheaper to search the junkyards.

  Don
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 14, 2020, 12:41:52 PM
Thanks Don and BB.
The problem in he UK is most cars are on alloys and the space savers tend to be more than 15" with low profile tires. I will use the 5" until I solve this but it will probably mean an import.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 14, 2020, 12:49:34 PM
I have bowed to peer pressure (or, more correctly, the experienced persons) and relocated the primary filter and pump; the top of the fuel pump is now below the bottom of the fuel tank.

Thanks Stainless for the hint wrt a female / female connector which tightened them up.

The downstream filter is mounted under the air-box as there was a huge area of emptiness there - I will do something with shielding as its above the alternator and a radiator hose.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on March 14, 2020, 01:14:08 PM
John,
Looking at your high pressure side filter I see you are using some brass fittings, are you sure these are 37 1/2 degree fittings? and not 45 degree fittings for natural gas appliances? All AN (Army Navy) fittings, which include male and female hose fittings are 37 1/2 degree, they will actually fit on a 45 degree "appliance" fitting but will not provide a correct seal. That is the last place you want gas spraying out of a leaking fitting/.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 14, 2020, 04:48:55 PM
Rex, I appreciate the catch. In this case they were supplied with the filters from the specialist fuel systems company as AN adapters, already fitted.

One of the advantages of needing a fuel switch for the rules (I think) is that the fuel system can be tested under pressure with nothing else on.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 22, 2020, 10:07:17 AM
I decided to pull the motor and gearbox and get the chassis on its side:

a. to take a piece of cross section boxing out (to clear the new primary fuel feed line running under / through it) and
b. to notch a chassis member that is interfering with the throttle cable rod end where it mates to a bell crank that translates the motion to a vertical pull to the ITB's.

I wish I had played more Tetris. I built the chassis up around the motor and box after mounting same on the lower tubes. I used cap bolts as they looked pretty (and I had the right size) to mate the motor mount to the engine, but now cant get a hex allen key onto them for removal. Got there in the end. Normal bolts next iteration.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 22, 2020, 10:10:25 AM
Another tubey pic for y'all.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on March 22, 2020, 01:24:37 PM
Great pictures John!! Love the chassis and also the headers. Looks like the kind my son Duke makes. I like the step, good design.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 22, 2020, 02:00:40 PM
Nice welding job.  Those look good.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 23, 2020, 04:23:20 AM
The headers are in Irvine Ca - the company I work for has an office close by and I used to go there a few times a year for business. I started this dialogue something like a year ago and took over my ITBs to match to the head (US sourced) and a pattern for the relationship of the engine exhaust system to the bodywork (for fit).

I don't get out there anymore so I wont be able to smuggle these back in my luggage.  :cry:

The exhaust shop there has been into racing engines for the last 30 years or so (and does fast street cars etc as well) and he knows his way around the engine I am using so it seemed sensible at the time.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 26, 2020, 09:07:14 AM
Prop shaft containment: check.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 26, 2020, 09:12:31 AM
One last tubey pic since you've been well behaved.

They (it is multiple tubes but a single assembly - they or it I wonder) should be in transit soon. Oh how I pray we got the pattern right  :roll:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on March 26, 2020, 09:32:31 AM
Truly beautiful, John. That guy does amazing work.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on March 26, 2020, 09:56:37 AM
OK. Who did the headers?
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 26, 2020, 10:45:41 AM

John Grudynski 
HyTech Exhausts, Irvine Ca.
www.hytechexhaust.com
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 28, 2020, 11:17:42 AM
Back on page 34 of this thread was a discussion about fire bottle orientation (ideally bum forward) and the firing pin actuation of the bottles that I have.

In the following pics the bottles are sitting above the chassis assembly that surrounds the rear axle and prop (drive) shaft and the front of the vehicle is to the left.

The other pic shows an alternative cable actuation lever that I made from some 6mm aluminium (aluminum) plate. I can now 'pull' and with a small inclination of the bottles the assembly will clear my transversely mounted coil overs. I also 'pinned' the plungers so the levers cannot fire the bottles in transit or when working on the car.

Result.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on March 28, 2020, 11:27:59 AM
Cool. I'm working on a bell crank setup for mine. My bottles are transversely mounted and one requires a blister to keep it out of the airstream. When I was building the car none of the suppliers could tell me how far everything stuck out of the top of the bottle. That was not helpful.  :-P
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 28, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
yup, from the bottle opening to the end of the actuation mechanism is a lot further than you expect with this set-up. Thats the main reason I was contemplating nozzle for wards originally but I think I am on the right track now.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on March 28, 2020, 01:28:08 PM
Obviously the horse has bolted here Mate but centering the pinion & cutting one side is desirable to not have excessive U-joint angles with a short shaft.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 29, 2020, 03:44:39 AM
Sid
At least now if the UJs cry enough the resultant bid for freedom will be contained.  :laugh:

I can?t be the only one with a short shaft on a steep angle?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: kiwi belly tank on March 29, 2020, 10:57:38 AM
U J's speed up & slow down twice per revolution & the greater the angle is the bigger that problem becomes. This usually creates a harmonic vibration that is somewhat absorbed by the shaft tube but a short shaft & high rpm multiplies the problem. Other than the risk of scattering a shaft, trans or diff parts, this is all sucking up horsepower before it comes unglued.
  Sid. 
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stan Back on March 29, 2020, 12:26:48 PM
"I can't be the only one with a short shaft on a steep angle?"

Sounds like my excuse at age 13.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 29, 2020, 12:27:43 PM
Would using constant velocity joints help?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: racergeo on March 29, 2020, 01:52:09 PM
    Oh, Stan  Stan Stan. Keep em coming!!!  And yes constant velocity u joints :lol:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 08, 2020, 06:45:00 AM
The fuel tank has gone from fibreboard to metal - looks just the same to me.

I have avoided weld on tags to bolt it down as I am thinking there might be some vibration - it will have nitrile rubber wherever it touches and be retained by brackets off the chassis that wedge it in.

The filler neck is attached with 8 bolts but not big enough to get my hand in so the locknut / washer was taped to in the ring spanner that was feed in and maneuvered into position to get the thread started. 8 bolts took an entire Black Sabbath CD!
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 08, 2020, 06:52:00 AM
I have not been able to find a fire bottle cable in the UK with 'pins' to avoid accidentally setting them off from the cockpit. I got this from Pegasus in the US in around a week - amazing considering whats happening in the world.

I am waving it about but no light bulbs yet. I think I need to make a cardboard one to tape in different places and see if I bash it getting in and out, and if its easy to reach etc.

I notice some door cars (drag racing) put them overhead or on the sides of the head area of the roll structure and pull them forwards - they wouldn't be in the way, the cable routing is nice and direct to the rear of the car and is much neater etc etc; presumably the right hand reaches for the left hand pull - bad idea?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: RidgeRunner on April 08, 2020, 07:58:28 AM
     For a rough idea of what you might or might not be able to reach/operate:  Sit in the car with full gear or heavy clothing to simulate fire suit, some strings attached between wrists and belt buckle limiting hands to inside of cage to simulate arm restraints, and then check reaches and ranges of motion.  When all necessary functions are considered it can get complicated and some compromises will most likely have to be made.

     Now is also the time to build in adjustments to fit different sized drivers.  That need will come, far easier to allow for now than make the changes later.

                    Ed
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 08, 2020, 09:18:11 AM
Thanks Ed
I purchased the full fire suit and harness with wrist restraints for that very purpose. The harness will get replaced before this thing ever sees salt but now at least I know where I don't want the buckles, and that a rotary release catch doesn't (as I cant reach it).

The pedal box is move-able several inches via three bolts and flexi lines on brake and clutch but the steering is fixed and the seat depth etc is fixed - I am the most tall / wide any driver of this Lakester can be but for people with inadequate legs we can move the pedals and worst case pad the seat - I believe one inch is allowed, after that it will have to be a bolt in insert. My crew chief has been in it and he is quite a bit shorter / slimmer than I am. If we stick something under his bum the steering and back rest are okay; remember I have a semi reclined position with my legs raised above my bum a la LeMans prototypes - as a rookie I decided on driving comfort (control?) over a few inches of vehicle height / frontal - I will probably regret that decision.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 08, 2020, 01:22:20 PM
John,
Good plan for the retention of the fuel tank, BTW really nice looking tank!! One thing you might consider is to fill the tank with water to check for any small pin leaks in the welds. I am sure that your fabricator probably already did this but checking again will ensure that it is "fuel" tight. A real pain in the a$$ to fix after gas starts to leak out. ( Don't ask me how I know!)

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: RidgeRunner on April 08, 2020, 01:55:19 PM
  John,

     Great to hear you have the issues covered that I thought I did years ago.  Don't ask how I have learned since  :-D 'nuff said on that.

     All the best, keep the posts coming, I'll continue to watch with interest.

                      Ed
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 08, 2020, 04:21:47 PM
Ed, Rex
If it even remotely looks like I have a clue it is because I am on this forum and leveraging the experience posted and shared herein.

Apart from pin holes I?d love to know what the tank holds so a measured quantity of water to follow, great idea. I just need to remember to blank the male AN fittings for outlet and drain in the bottom of the tank.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 08, 2020, 04:47:48 PM
"I just need to remember to blank the male AN fittings for outlet and drain in the bottom of the tank."

John, I think you can do it.  :wink:  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on April 08, 2020, 08:38:50 PM
Hey, I can tell you that you should not apply shop air to the tank to see if any water seeps out.... No I didn't but someone on our team did years ago... 10-15 psi would have been plenty and a lot less scary during the POP!
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Jack Gifford on April 09, 2020, 01:08:41 AM
I would test it with fuel. Fuel will leak where water sometimes won't.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on April 09, 2020, 01:35:26 PM
If you use alcohol you would not have to worry about welding  if you did find a leak :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Peter Jack on April 09, 2020, 03:42:35 PM
I use VERY low air pressure and spray all seams down with a spray bottle filled with water and a few drops of dish detergent. Any leaks stand out big time and there's little danger or cleanup.

Pete
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 15, 2020, 10:05:22 AM
I filled the tank with water and am none the wiser (in leak terms) but I can confirm it is 14 litres without having it slosh out the filler so around 3.5 US gallons. It did prove that the screws that hold the filler in place need sealing so it was not a total bust.

On a bright note the oil remote takeoff clears the new number one down tube of the headers by about 1/4". The OEM setup has a water / oil inter cooler sandwiched between the block and the oil filter - faster warm up then cooling I guess. Removed that completely and found an M20 / M22 male / male oil adapter thread insert that screws into the block and accepts the top hat of the oil takeoff I already had. Result.

Once the front suspension is all mocked up I will drop the engine and box back in and cross fingers and toes that the headers 'fit'.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 15, 2020, 10:06:29 AM
Okay, I cannot count - it screws in with the headers in place, past the number one down tube and clears the number two by 1/4".
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: fordboy628 on April 15, 2020, 10:46:48 AM
I use VERY low air pressure and spray all seams down with a spray bottle filled with water and a few drops of dish detergent. Any leaks stand out big time and there's little danger or cleanup.

Pete

Similar to Pete,  I've used VERY HOT water, no soap, no air pressure.   The hot water expands any tank and elicits leaks.    Set on some dry paper towels and the leak will reveal itself.

You need to use something that will not contaminate the weld zone if you need to do repairs.

ONLY the welder knows if there might be a weld zone defect, and most of the time, they are surprised too.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 28, 2020, 09:54:49 AM
I have a question about nuts please:

Rule book 2.G says 1/2" wheel studs with 1" lug nuts. I am using steel wheels (stock) which I assume are a 60 degree interface but all the 1" wrench size lug nuts I have looked at (Jegs, Speedway etc) state they are 45 degree for racing wheels.

Am I misunderstanding the compatibility?

Does anyone have a supplier for a 1/2" thread lug nut (1" wrench) for stock Chevy steel wheels - can I use the 45 degree ones or is that a no-no?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Peter Jack on April 28, 2020, 10:02:33 AM
If you can't find them, anyone with a lathe could change the angle on the nuts rather easily. those nuts are a pretty good size so there should be lots of material.

Pete
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 28, 2020, 10:49:18 AM
Thanks Pete, good call and that is now my back up plan.

Hopefully it wont come to that (importing nuts then machining them) - I am hoping there is a source of compatible ones 'off the shelf'.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 18, 2020, 07:58:18 AM
Sourced the wheel nuts and the angle is being altered to align with the road rims.  :-D

Aw chute, today is my last day of work. Not a victim of the virus but of corporate greed (well, an acquisition which is sort of the same thing).
Tomorrow I start gardening leave which, in my case will be a mix, negotiated with the steering committee, that includes the garden, diy and the garage.

Recent progress pic attached (for the pun value).
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 18, 2020, 08:11:03 AM
Fooling around with the front suspension at the moment.

4 bars mocked up, steering rack mount to the axle and the shock actuation (location = above the drivers legs) in mock up, seen here.

If the stars align the entire chassis and all of its critical bracketry will be ready for a welding session in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 27, 2020, 12:15:29 PM
The chassis is upside down (hope that doesn't happen too often) and that allowed some proof of concept work on the sliding block for the front axle lateral location.

The rod end / turnbuckles are there to reinforce the guide tower both laterally and fore / aft.

The block pivot 'bolt' is 3/4" thick threaded at one end so it screws through the 5mm plate to a captured 3/4" nut and turned down at the other end for the 1/2" locating / lock nut.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on May 27, 2020, 01:01:08 PM
John:

Is there going to be a bearing in the block?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 27, 2020, 01:43:50 PM
John - not in the plan - I am aware Alfa did incorporate one in their GTA rear axle set-up.

I figure it can rotate on the 3/4" pivot and its not designed to do large mileage or very much suspension travel / movement.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on May 28, 2020, 03:47:10 PM
John,
The slider block is brass  (or bronze?) that is a bearing. Love to see a good sliding block locator. Great job John!
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 29, 2020, 08:54:22 AM
Thanks Rex and yes, good point, the brass will act as its own bearing for my purposes.

I am not sure if it is a 'good' sliding block locator but it is at least a sliding block locator with limited space for watts etc. in my application and might be food for thought for others.

Lets see if the car tracks straight before giving it an unconditional thumbs up though.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 03, 2020, 10:42:19 AM
The full chassis incorporating the previously completed roll structure has gone away for a welding session by someone who has a better strike rate than I do (some of my welds are gutter balls - I just don't have the art).

I decided to finish up the pedal assembly today; clutch foot rest (adjustable), throttle return spring #2 plus the throttle stop (adjustable) and a floor wedge (to be covered with anti-slip) for a heel to push against when bailing out.

The entire pedal assembly can be moved for shorter legs than mine by around 5" so the clutch and brake masters will need flexi lines on them (with stainless over-braid) - any reason why I shouldn't run that stuff all the way thus avoiding joins from flexi to hard line and back to flexi to attach to the slaves? I am thinking a 1.5" x 3/4" channel running under the floor for the wires and pipes to run in - punch that through the firewall and liberally seal it with intumescent silicone?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on June 03, 2020, 11:03:57 AM
I wouldn't recommend doing that. Flexible hose lines don't have enough rigidity to prevent expansion under pressure. This results in a "soft pedal" feel.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on June 03, 2020, 12:08:30 PM
John, what size master cylinder are you using for the clutch?

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Rex Schimmer on June 03, 2020, 12:50:21 PM
John,
 I have worked on cars that used -3 stainless flex line from the master cyl to the brake(s) it was a road race car, and there didn't seem to be a problem. On the other hand you "should" be only using the brakes once the parachute has gotten you down to "slow" so brake use is pretty light and even if you should loose your chute you will have lots of room to coast down. Do not use -4 that will make the pedal soft. Use -4 for the clutch circuit.

Rex
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 03, 2020, 02:58:00 PM
We use flex lines on the bikes.  It is the typical line.  There is a big difference in response when different line materials are used.  The softest and spongiest response seems to be with the rubber lines and the opposite using the teflon tube with braided stainless steel cover lines.   
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 03, 2020, 03:55:00 PM
All; many thanks for the comments.

For clarity (which I didn't provide) the proposed line material is -03AN/JIC Stainless Steel Braided PTFE Brake Hose Aeroquip / Goodridge so that looks like a lucky shot in the dark.  :clap

I think the clutch is 0.75" but in all honesty that's what was supplied with the pedal assembly; two singles purchased individually (brake / clutch) and the throttle assembly built from scratch to 'match'.

I will use a new clutch slave and once its all plumbed see what happens. It may need a different master - different sizes are available in the range.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: manta22 on June 03, 2020, 04:03:51 PM
Rigid tube is going to be a cheaper approach but the cost of fittings will narrow your choice.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 04, 2020, 02:08:57 AM
Neil
You make a very good point about cost which at this stage I hadn't looked into (i.e. cost of the ptfe / stainless braid).

In truth its a long way from the brake pedal to the rear axle so a normal hard line junction with an off the shelf rear axle flexi hose to a T junction on the axle itself is probably sensible for the brakes - heck, half of the required bits are probably already in the brake parts box from previous projects - which prompts me to go find that box.

I am currently out of work (corporate takeover, not virus) and that gives me more time so while the chassis is out I am going to have a complete reorg of the garage for the next phase and store what bits I have in their own containers by sub system to help with assembly.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 17, 2020, 09:39:03 AM
I have written about the gear shift before so here goes; forth time lucky.  :dhorse:

Essentially the Honda (car) box is an inline 6 speed and in the donor the shifter falls to hand. In the lakester its 10 feet behind your hand which is inconvenient.

At the box end the shift lever is replaced with a sliding mechanism that engages the donor parts via a ball joint so push pull is say 1st to 2nd and a few degrees of rotation goes across the box, one direction is from 3rd/4th to 1st/2nd and the other direction to 5th/6th - it is the same pattern as the car so no brain teasers here.

It is a single rod via milspec UJs from there to the cockpit (with a couple of guide bearings) and I need to remove any and all slack as that multiplies up to a sloppy shift. This iteration uses a Borgeson 3/4" telescopic shaft so there is a reasonable amount of inner sliding for and aft meaning the mechanism won't droop and bind under its own weight and, if I can get the missing tension spring, will be a bit more rifle bolt. Pinkies crossed. News flash - Borgeson can provide one foc :clap

I do appreciate there are a dozen ways to do this - I have tried 4 but cannot stretch to a Quaife sequential box or funky air shift etc. so have to make the best of a manual action. This version is very promising.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on June 17, 2020, 01:31:01 PM
The only thing I can say is this. When your able to finally make a run after all the hours of work needed to get the chance to finally run including that long wait in line. The last thing you want to go wrong is a missed shift. Trying to figure out what gear your in or want to be in is going to throw your entire focus off. My point is simply this.  Being able to accurately select each gear is one of the most important parts of your run. Any possibility of a mystery shift needs to be eliminated as much as possible.  Im sure you will figure it out don't settle for its good enough.     :cheers:
    Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 29, 2020, 07:06:20 AM
All welded up  8-)
Except for the inevitable mods, brackets, tags, tabs and etc.  :wink:

Degreased and some sort of converter applied (phosphoric acid plus some zinc maybe?) but putting primer on by brush is going to take forever - there is a lot of tubing although that should help it stay near the ground at speed - 470lbs for reference.

I started undercoating the tail section and observe that grey POR is surprisingly thin compared to black.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Peter Jack on June 29, 2020, 11:32:54 AM
That's a great looking build John. The driver's area looks as safe as anything I've seen built with a tubular structure. The only thing I see that might raise a question is there is little to stop your legs from goin out the top. This can probably be solved with a net similar to a window net and would mean less welding than adding more structure.

That's a job well done. I look forward to seeing it on the salt.  :cheers: :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on June 29, 2020, 11:28:21 PM
John, if I remember you have a seat made of aluminum basically lining the bottom and sides of the cage.  You could line the top of the cage, make it easily removable or just install several aluminum strips across the open spaces so the legs cant escape if something untoward happens.  In a tight cage, a window net can hang down and catch on the feet as you are trying to escape... Yes I know several folks have an upper leg net... so if you go that way, make sure it stays up on the ceiling.
Get back to work...  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on June 30, 2020, 03:02:35 AM
Pete, Stainless

I haven't quite figured out the upper leg restraint and you are right - why am I painting it when its not finished - I had that thought yesterday as I was bemoaning my sore back bending over painting tubing - oh why does tubing have so many sides?

I think I will paint the inner aluminium panels with etch primer both sides and then some contrasting colour on  the cockpit side for 'style'. Nothing as fancy as Sids liner with metallic blue chassis though.

I think there will be a few places where the chassis paint will get ground down and some welding done, then repaint. The leg restraint is one and a timely reminder to re-read the rules (no 2020 book here yet). I want to get the welds protected and figured if its painted then many of the things that I start bolting in place can stay bolted in place and that feels like progress.

As an aside - the CofG of the chassis with nothing attached is rear of the firewall and perhaps under or towards the rear of the water tank / radiator but I fear I'll need hobnail boots when driving it to get the CofG where I want it as there is more going in rear than forward; or I could just eat and drink more - heres to putting on weight for safety reasons  :cheers:
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Stainless1 on June 30, 2020, 08:40:28 AM
John, I'm with ya on painting and then rubbing a little of it off to add a tab.... been doing that since the chassis was squirted.... but I live in a humid place and bare metal tends to take on a little patina about a day after it is exposed.  The problem you will face is confining the repaint to the spot you need after welding.  That has been a challenge... from here, it may go on with a brush... I have several spots that got rubbed a bit during the course of building.
Keep going, CG is adjustable, you can figure it out after the wheels are on the ground... some of the weight you put between the wheels ends up in the front.
 :cheers: 
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ggl205 on June 30, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
John, are you thinking of installing a rear vertical stabilizer? That will help pull back Cp some if needed.

John
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 01, 2020, 02:19:36 AM
Tail fin thingy - yes.

The rear structure (where it goes pointy) is not shown in the pics of the chassis on the path.

I was thinking CofG for front / rear weight distribution / traction at this stage. I assume at this stage that up to 60 percent of the total mass on the rear tires is the target?
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: ronnieroadster on July 01, 2020, 01:42:31 PM
Tail fin thingy - yes.

The rear structure (where it goes pointy) is not shown in the pics of the chassis on the path.

I was thinking CofG for front / rear weight distribution / traction at this stage. I assume at this stage that up to 60 percent of the total mass on the rear tires is the target?



    John once you have determined the C/P for your lakester you may be surprised to find the front axle to rear axle weights will be extremely close when moving the weights around to get the C/G forward of the C/P.  On my car the final axle weights needed so the C/G was forward of the C/P is less than a 200 pound difference. 
    Ronnieroadster
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 08, 2020, 04:53:07 AM
Rule book arrived and nothing that diverts me that I can see.

With the chassis on its side during paint I have installed the firewall and considered what passes through it where.
I have decided to run a rectangular tube from the front of the cockpit (mounts to the sliding block guide assembly) where it will pick up the hardline for brake and clutch.
A bit rearward it has an opening to feed the chute release cable and the dash wiring will enter here too.
It has a nitrile rubber seal at the firewall (near the bottom of the body) and once everything is in it I will fill the engine end with fireproof sealer.

Bit of a pain if it needs removal but better than lots of holes in the firewall I think.
Probably put wiring connector blocks at each end though that adds to points of failure.

Fire bottle cables will go a different route. Throttle cable has its own seal slightly higher up to line up properly.

In my head everything that needs to go south will fit in this tube. I might regret that statement - I bet I have forgotten something.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Jack Gifford on July 09, 2020, 12:31:19 AM
Just thinking (or not?) out loud- how about a terminal strip at both ends of the rectangular tube? Screw terminals (and coax connectors) are very reliable. Just include the required number of conductors (and spares) and assign them to matching screw numbers at both ends. Barrier strips are nice, and many are available with covers. Might want to include some twisted pairs (or coax) for interference-sensitive signals.
Title: Re: UK Lakester build G/GL
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 09, 2020, 06:33:13 AM
Thanks Jack
I will look into that - not sure of the numbers yet.
There is nothing interference sensitive going south as the ECU and all its bits will be in the engine bay area if I can find somewhere nice and cool for it.