Landracing Forum Home

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: thefrenchowl on January 03, 2018, 12:56:52 PM



Title: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 03, 2018, 12:56:52 PM
Hi, and all the best for this just started New Year, I hope it will fulfill all your dreams...

Some of you might remember my previous forrays onto the Bonneville Salt Flats in 2011, 2013 and 2014, on my home made Harley-Davidson 1954 KHK, supercharged on methanol:

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8744.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8744.0.html)

I was toying with updating that bike, but lack of money/sponsors made me think again and change direction. That bike is now retired...

But let's start at the beginning...

In 1976, I was lend a few pre war racing motorcycles photos of the French manufacturer Jonghi. Good occasion at the time to make an indepth article in our Vintage MC Club Magazine. I went to see other friends to collect info and details. At one of them, I saw this fully loaded racing timing chest stamped TT 2:

(https://i.imgur.com/S3Cnfhv.jpg)

The TT 2 stamp identified it as the remnants of a rather special bike... In early 1933, the factory owner, an Italian immigrant by the name of Guiseppe Remondini, tried to do a 24 hour World Record with an OHV race bike on the Montlhery Speed Bowl near Paris. They twice failed and he decided to dampen somewhat the engine output by grafting the top end of the sidevalve model on it while discarding the OHV parts.

The little sidevalve bike had a top speed of about 90mph in that guise and at the 3rd attempt, it all came good and the record was theirs at about 72mph over the 24 hours on a cold March day.

In the paddock before the attempt:

(https://i.imgur.com/1mWtgbq.jpg)

During the run, Louis Jeannin in the saddle, their star rider:

(https://i.imgur.com/DDATv0v.jpg)

Patrick



Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Glen on January 03, 2018, 01:01:29 PM
Interesting, thanks.


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: sofadriver on January 03, 2018, 01:18:47 PM
Very cool!

Do you have the rest of it?


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 03, 2018, 01:48:50 PM
Quote
sofadriver: Do you have the rest of it?

 :-D

Jump from 1976 to May last year when I went with my street 350cc SV Jonghi TJ 4 at the Montlhery Speed Bowl for the Vintage Revival, one of the better meetings in Europe, sadly only every two years...

(https://i.imgur.com/3suKtKt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7Y5gaPn.jpg)

The owner of the collection where the TT 2 parts were died in 2000 and the collection is now a trust. I met its curator there and he told me to pay him a visit next time I came to France (... I still live in Great Britain!!!)

So, a Saturday last November I headed South and met him... He very kindly put the TT 2 parts in my hands and told me if there was a man to revive them, it was me. I was shocked, I dreamed of owning these parts for more than 40 years and here they were in my custody. No money changed hands, I had some old memorabilia bits he wanted, so a good piece of barter.

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: panic on January 03, 2018, 06:00:31 PM
Excellent, love it!


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Old Scrambler on January 03, 2018, 09:42:47 PM
Numerous discussions in the US about what ever happened to the reportedly 'dozens' of French motorcycle manufacturers from before WWII. This would be great......... :-)


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 04, 2018, 02:50:38 AM
Hi Old Scrambler,

Dozens... You mean Hundreds!!!

A friend has published 2 books (a 3rd one is due...) listing the 600 plus makers that were around Paris between the early dawn, 1871, and 1988...

Jonghi was one of them, located on the outskirts of Paris.

Not to mention all the rest scattered around France, some big, some small...

(http://www.la-boutique.com/_files/btq_imgzoom/31567.jpg)

The lady on the cover is Madame Jolivet on her racing Pecourt, about 250cc, on the 12th of October 1902... Photo Jules Beau, courtesy Gallica, the French National Library.

I'll post the link later...

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 04, 2018, 03:31:07 AM
Gallica site, 77 pages of Motorcycles photographs from the early days till about 1928.

There's more at Gallica, but that's a quick search!!!

http://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/sru?operation=searchRetrieve&version=1.2&startRecord=0&maximumRecords=15&page=1&query=%28gallica%20all%20%22motocyclette%22%29%20and%20dc.type%20all%20%22image%22%20sortby%20dc.date%2Fsort.ascending (http://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/sru?operation=searchRetrieve&version=1.2&startRecord=0&maximumRecords=15&page=1&query=%28gallica%20all%20%22motocyclette%22%29%20and%20dc.type%20all%20%22image%22%20sortby%20dc.date%2Fsort.ascending)

Click on thumbnails to enlarge, then on left, button to download as JPG or PDF...

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: TrickyDicky on January 04, 2018, 07:24:59 AM
I recently stumbled across many photographs by Jules Beau. It seems he took most of the land speed photos (in France, up to about 1910) that crop up on the internet.

Try https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Jules_Beau.


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 04, 2018, 10:50:29 AM
Yes, TrickyDicky,

Jules Beau was a prolific photographer of anything to do with sport, bicycles, horses, athletism, boats, cars and motorbikes...

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 04, 2018, 11:07:39 AM
Hi all,

When I arrived back in GB in November with the TT 2 parts, I thought it would take me about a year or two to either find a suitable donor bike or to persuade one of my friends to part with their own Jonghi...

My own Jonghi, shown above, just took me too long to get and refurbish and I did not fancy restarting the process again!!!

Well, as soon as November morphed into December, a suitable Jonghi appeared for sale on a french adverts site and I promply made arrangements to purchase it.

(https://i.imgur.com/7bnnpEm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QLKO86F.jpg)

So I was off to France in a rented van between Christmas and New Year to collect it...

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: sofadriver on January 04, 2018, 10:14:48 PM
Wow, what a find!

It's so complete I wonder if it's worth more unrestored?

But since I know you won't be able to resist - let the restoration begin!  :-D  :-D


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 05, 2018, 04:48:37 AM
Yes, Sofadriver,

It is very complete, but sadly, was stored for years near the sea so it's like pebble dashed with little rust holes from salt attacks.

That's only the 5th sidevalve Jonghi known to man, these things are rare (there are far more OHV Jonghi survivors...), so yes, it wasn't given away...

And yes also, it will be morphed into a reconstruction of the 1933 Record Bike...

A family shot just after the successful attempt in March 1933:

(https://i.imgur.com/RM5CgxP.jpg)

From left to right around the record breaker: Marcel Perrin, Louis Jeannin on the bike and Hector Andreino, they took turns of one hour stints except for the last three hours done by Jeannin on his own to bring home an ailing engine, plus the engineer, Guiseppe Remondini. Between Perrin and Jeannin, cigarette in mouth is another famous frenchman, Clement Garreau who became France's Norton importer after WWII, and in between Andreino and Remondini, Remondini's father, Pietro, who came from Italy to refloat the already troubled company. At the extreme right, the smartly dressed lady is Bianca Remondini, Guiseppe's wife...

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: sofadriver on January 05, 2018, 10:58:41 AM
At the extreme right, the smartly dressed lady is Bianca Remondini, Guiseppe's wife...

Patrick
Didn't I just see Megan Markle wearing that hat?


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 05, 2018, 03:41:42 PM
Fashions come and go... and come back!!!!


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: fordboy628 on January 05, 2018, 04:52:23 PM
Patrick,

Way cool restoration!   And double way cool on the newest find/project.

I suspect your French friend is correct, this bit of history is now in the right hands.    Please keep us informed of the process.

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Yourchoiceoflibationboy


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 05, 2018, 05:21:06 PM
I will, Fordboy...

At the moment, TT 2 is sitting in my trophy cabinet, waiting for stuff to arrive and assemble themselves in a timely fashion...

(https://i.imgur.com/vXkbng0.jpg)

I did open my already restored sidevalve to compare the castings and cams, yes, TT 2 is pukka racing parts, different castings with reinforced bearing locations, with cams with about 100 degrees of overlap and 9mm lift, not shabby for 1931 engineering!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/vz8SRPP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WLi24mZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3GgNtot.jpg)

The racer was fitted with a Bosch racing magneto, type FF1 A L, found one for dirt cheap in Poland.
One of my mates at work, Marek, is Polish, he handled the purchase and should be back from holidays on Monday with it!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/xRQzELx.jpg)

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: fordboy628 on January 06, 2018, 07:27:39 AM

I did open my already restored sidevalve to compare the castings and cams, yes, TT 2 is pukka racing parts, different castings with reinforced bearing locations, with cams with about 100 degrees of overlap and 9mm lift, not shabby for 1931 engineering!!!

Patrick


Hi Patrick,

You know, one of the falsehoods that is unwittingly perpetuated on the internet, and other places, is the idea that engine engineers of early 20th century (post WWI through the late 1950's) didn't know what they were doing.   This idea however, is far from the reality.   When you read the papers and books from these pioneers, it becomes obvious that they were hard working and very astute engineers and scientists, who advanced their projects using the scientific method.   And in many instances, it was these pioneers who invented the methods and technology that we use and take for granted today.   It is on the shoulders of these giants, and the ones who followed, that we now stand.

To be sure, these pioneers were handicapped by the metallurgy of their times, the infancy of production hot forging, the tediousness of hand calculation(s), and the lack of standardization, as well as other issues.   But then, as now, there is little that restrains persistence coupled with ambition.   And it is important to also note, that Postwar racing definitely benefited from the technological advancements of WWII.

Knowing what I know about the material specifications of the times, I'd say 100 degrees of overlap and 9mm lift would have been pretty cutting edge and quite racy for the 1930's.   Quite probably near to the limits of their valve springs . . . . . .

I'm sure you already are aware of this, but it is always worth repeating.  Re-manufacturing of the critical parts of these assemblies using "modern" materials, bearings, etc, can add life and reliability to these restoration projects.   Especially where no reliability may have existed before . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Mark


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 08, 2018, 12:10:58 PM
Yes Fordboy,

The OHV has double hair pin type valve springs well out in the air flow and also had coil springs on the push rods at the bottom of the cylinder...

But the sidevalve only have a single coil spring per valve, also enclosed, I'll check if I can fit a slightly stronger one there cause the cams are indeed hairy...

Stuff is also starting to drop at the front door...

Tubes for bits of fabrication today and

Last week, Saddle, a rubber backed fabric item by Dunlop, named Drilastic, on an Ideale licence, and a Speedway spool hub for the front wheel:

(https://i.imgur.com/1pSa5Gl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lnosqjt.jpg)

I also put a nice sum on eBay for a sport carburettor, a one inch bore AMAC 15 MDY, to no avail, it went elsewhere...

(https://i.imgur.com/op4ICVW.jpg)

So long...

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 08, 2018, 03:42:28 PM
Patrick,
I am always in awe of your kind of project. I love old motorcycles and to take one and bring it back to life and then race it is a true test of stubbornness!  Can't wait to see it finished!!

Rex


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 08, 2018, 04:26:15 PM
Thanks Rex...

Yes, I never choose the easy way!!!

The records I'm looking at, depending on category, are not too shabby for an 85 years old SV bike to beat, 250cc M-VF = 79.55mph, M-VG = 77.306mph, MPS-VF = 82.486mph and MPS-VG = 81.418mph

I've had a chat with the SCTA/BNI MC Tech Committee, it appears the balsa filler and sticky tape on the Webbs type forks put the bike in PS category...

Cheers, Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 08, 2018, 09:47:33 PM
An expert can make digital profiles of your cams, weigh the valve train components, and use computer calculations to tell you exactly what springs are needed - both for strength and resistance to harmonic irregularities.  Then, they can suggest a reasonable safety factor to use in the design.  Another fix is to use ceramic coatings on the ports and cylinder head to keep the springs cool.   

This work sounds expensive.  It isn't when the cost of hard to replace parts is factored in.  An additional plus is the information you get can be used for other things, like optimizing the cam timing or having custom springs made. 

A source for good quality mousetrap springs are those folks in the UK who supply parts for the racing Nortons and Matchlesses.  The matchbox G-80's I had used those springs. 


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 09, 2018, 07:46:42 AM
 :-D Wobblywalrus,

I'm running the side valve version, not the OHV, hence I'm stuck with using coil springs.

I'll check how far I can shim the OEM ones to improve seating pressure without going ""coil bind + 40 or 60 thou" at full opening...

I have a few coils springs from various Harley OHV heads, I'm sure I can find some harder ones in there!!!

As you might have seen, I'm not one for much testing!!! But I can make a quick jig to check their tension under a certain weight.

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on January 09, 2018, 11:25:46 AM
Happy Birthday Patrick.

It looks as if you have already received your present (some assembly required).    :cheers:

  Don


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 09, 2018, 12:06:25 PM
Thanks Don!!!

Yes, Christmas, New Year and Birthday all within 2 weeks, the fun never ceases!!!

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: CNC-Dude on January 09, 2018, 04:00:29 PM
:-D Wobblywalrus,

 

I'll check how far I can shim the OEM ones to improve seating pressure without going ""coil bind + 40 or 60 thou" at full opening...
Patrick

Very nice project you have there. If I can add a few cents worth of experience to your build. Many racing cylinder head porters and builders try to not go closer than .100" before coil bind because it wears the springs out much faster due to over compressing them. I know people do and will continue to do it even when faced with facts and evidence it will. But maybe longer valves can help your valve spring selection and find a stiffer spring from more modern engines and possibly give you a much wider selection to choose from.


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 09, 2018, 07:01:31 PM
Thanks, CNC-Dude,

I sensed I couldn't shim modern springs that tight, but you should see these OEM 85 years old springs, they nearly look like out of a retractable ball pen!!!

Patrick


Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 16, 2018, 01:38:49 PM
Too cold here to do anything decent...

But Marek's luggage was back from Poland after his holidays there at Christmas...

Nice bloke, nice magneto!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/LzFaU0u.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BNnW6YH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Bxpg2wf.jpg)

More news soon I hope!!! Gotta make some room in the garage, too many bits everywhere!!!

Patrick