Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: thefrenchowl on January 03, 2018, 11:56:52 AM

Title: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 03, 2018, 11:56:52 AM
Hi, and all the best for this just started New Year, I hope it will fulfill all your dreams...

Some of you might remember my previous forrays onto the Bonneville Salt Flats in 2011, 2013 and 2014, on my home made Harley-Davidson 1954 KHK, supercharged on methanol:

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8744.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8744.0.html)

I was toying with updating that bike, but lack of money/sponsors made me think again and change direction. That bike is now retired...

But let's start at the beginning...

In 1976, I was lend a few pre war racing motorcycles photos of the French manufacturer Jonghi. Good occasion at the time to make an indepth article in our Vintage MC Club Magazine. I went to see other friends to collect info and details. At one of them, I saw this fully loaded racing timing chest stamped TT 2:

(https://i.imgur.com/S3Cnfhv.jpg)

The TT 2 stamp identified it as the remnants of a rather special bike... In early 1933, the factory owner, an Italian immigrant by the name of Guiseppe Remondini, tried to do a 24 hour World Record with an OHV race bike on the Montlhery Speed Bowl near Paris. They twice failed and he decided to dampen somewhat the engine output by grafting the top end of the sidevalve model on it while discarding the OHV parts.

The little sidevalve bike had a top speed of about 90mph in that guise and at the 3rd attempt, it all came good and the record was theirs at about 72mph over the 24 hours on a cold March day.

In the paddock before the attempt:

(https://i.imgur.com/1mWtgbq.jpg)

During the run, Louis Jeannin in the saddle, their star rider:

(https://i.imgur.com/DDATv0v.jpg)

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Glen on January 03, 2018, 12:01:29 PM
Interesting, thanks.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: sofadriver on January 03, 2018, 12:18:47 PM
Very cool!

Do you have the rest of it?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 03, 2018, 12:48:50 PM
Quote
sofadriver: Do you have the rest of it?

 :-D

Jump from 1976 to May last year when I went with my street 350cc SV Jonghi TJ 4 at the Montlhery Speed Bowl for the Vintage Revival, one of the better meetings in Europe, sadly only every two years...

(https://i.imgur.com/3suKtKt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7Y5gaPn.jpg)

The owner of the collection where the TT 2 parts were died in 2000 and the collection is now a trust. I met its curator there and he told me to pay him a visit next time I came to France (... I still live in Great Britain!!!)

So, a Saturday last November I headed South and met him... He very kindly put the TT 2 parts in my hands and told me if there was a man to revive them, it was me. I was shocked, I dreamed of owning these parts for more than 40 years and here they were in my custody. No money changed hands, I had some old memorabilia bits he wanted, so a good piece of barter.

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: panic on January 03, 2018, 05:00:31 PM
Excellent, love it!
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Old Scrambler on January 03, 2018, 08:42:47 PM
Numerous discussions in the US about what ever happened to the reportedly 'dozens' of French motorcycle manufacturers from before WWII. This would be great......... :-)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 04, 2018, 01:50:38 AM
Hi Old Scrambler,

Dozens... You mean Hundreds!!!

A friend has published 2 books (a 3rd one is due...) listing the 600 plus makers that were around Paris between the early dawn, 1871, and 1988...

Jonghi was one of them, located on the outskirts of Paris.

Not to mention all the rest scattered around France, some big, some small...

(http://www.la-boutique.com/_files/btq_imgzoom/31567.jpg)

The lady on the cover is Madame Jolivet on her racing Pecourt, about 250cc, on the 12th of October 1902... Photo Jules Beau, courtesy Gallica, the French National Library.

I'll post the link later...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 04, 2018, 02:31:07 AM
Gallica site, 77 pages of Motorcycles photographs from the early days till about 1928.

There's more at Gallica, but that's a quick search!!!

http://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/sru?operation=searchRetrieve&version=1.2&startRecord=0&maximumRecords=15&page=1&query=%28gallica%20all%20%22motocyclette%22%29%20and%20dc.type%20all%20%22image%22%20sortby%20dc.date%2Fsort.ascending (http://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/sru?operation=searchRetrieve&version=1.2&startRecord=0&maximumRecords=15&page=1&query=%28gallica%20all%20%22motocyclette%22%29%20and%20dc.type%20all%20%22image%22%20sortby%20dc.date%2Fsort.ascending)

Click on thumbnails to enlarge, then on left, button to download as JPG or PDF...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: TrickyDicky on January 04, 2018, 06:24:59 AM
I recently stumbled across many photographs by Jules Beau. It seems he took most of the land speed photos (in France, up to about 1910) that crop up on the internet.

Try https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Jules_Beau.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 04, 2018, 09:50:29 AM
Yes, TrickyDicky,

Jules Beau was a prolific photographer of anything to do with sport, bicycles, horses, athletism, boats, cars and motorbikes...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 04, 2018, 10:07:39 AM
Hi all,

When I arrived back in GB in November with the TT 2 parts, I thought it would take me about a year or two to either find a suitable donor bike or to persuade one of my friends to part with their own Jonghi...

My own Jonghi, shown above, just took me too long to get and refurbish and I did not fancy restarting the process again!!!

Well, as soon as November morphed into December, a suitable Jonghi appeared for sale on a french adverts site and I promply made arrangements to purchase it.

(https://i.imgur.com/7bnnpEm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QLKO86F.jpg)

So I was off to France in a rented van between Christmas and New Year to collect it...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: sofadriver on January 04, 2018, 09:14:48 PM
Wow, what a find!

It's so complete I wonder if it's worth more unrestored?

But since I know you won't be able to resist - let the restoration begin!  :-D  :-D
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 05, 2018, 03:48:37 AM
Yes, Sofadriver,

It is very complete, but sadly, was stored for years near the sea so it's like pebble dashed with little rust holes from salt attacks.

That's only the 5th sidevalve Jonghi known to man, these things are rare (there are far more OHV Jonghi survivors...), so yes, it wasn't given away...

And yes also, it will be morphed into a reconstruction of the 1933 Record Bike...

A family shot just after the successful attempt in March 1933:

(https://i.imgur.com/RM5CgxP.jpg)

From left to right around the record breaker: Marcel Perrin, Louis Jeannin on the bike and Hector Andreino, they took turns of one hour stints except for the last three hours done by Jeannin on his own to bring home an ailing engine, plus the engineer, Guiseppe Remondini. Between Perrin and Jeannin, cigarette in mouth is another famous frenchman, Clement Garreau who became France's Norton importer after WWII, and in between Andreino and Remondini, Remondini's father, Pietro, who came from Italy to refloat the already troubled company. At the extreme right, the smartly dressed lady is Bianca Remondini, Guiseppe's wife...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: sofadriver on January 05, 2018, 09:58:41 AM
At the extreme right, the smartly dressed lady is Bianca Remondini, Guiseppe's wife...

Patrick
Didn't I just see Megan Markle wearing that hat?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 05, 2018, 02:41:42 PM
Fashions come and go... and come back!!!!
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: fordboy628 on January 05, 2018, 03:52:23 PM
Patrick,

Way cool restoration!   And double way cool on the newest find/project.

I suspect your French friend is correct, this bit of history is now in the right hands.    Please keep us informed of the process.

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Yourchoiceoflibationboy
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 05, 2018, 04:21:06 PM
I will, Fordboy...

At the moment, TT 2 is sitting in my trophy cabinet, waiting for stuff to arrive and assemble themselves in a timely fashion...

(https://i.imgur.com/vXkbng0.jpg)

I did open my already restored sidevalve to compare the castings and cams, yes, TT 2 is pukka racing parts, different castings with reinforced bearing locations, with cams with about 100 degrees of overlap and 9mm lift, not shabby for 1931 engineering!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/vz8SRPP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WLi24mZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3GgNtot.jpg)

The racer was fitted with a Bosch racing magneto, type FF1 A L, found one for dirt cheap in Poland.
One of my mates at work, Marek, is Polish, he handled the purchase and should be back from holidays on Monday with it!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/xRQzELx.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: fordboy628 on January 06, 2018, 06:27:39 AM

I did open my already restored sidevalve to compare the castings and cams, yes, TT 2 is pukka racing parts, different castings with reinforced bearing locations, with cams with about 100 degrees of overlap and 9mm lift, not shabby for 1931 engineering!!!

Patrick


Hi Patrick,

You know, one of the falsehoods that is unwittingly perpetuated on the internet, and other places, is the idea that engine engineers of early 20th century (post WWI through the late 1950's) didn't know what they were doing.   This idea however, is far from the reality.   When you read the papers and books from these pioneers, it becomes obvious that they were hard working and very astute engineers and scientists, who advanced their projects using the scientific method.   And in many instances, it was these pioneers who invented the methods and technology that we use and take for granted today.   It is on the shoulders of these giants, and the ones who followed, that we now stand.

To be sure, these pioneers were handicapped by the metallurgy of their times, the infancy of production hot forging, the tediousness of hand calculation(s), and the lack of standardization, as well as other issues.   But then, as now, there is little that restrains persistence coupled with ambition.   And it is important to also note, that Postwar racing definitely benefited from the technological advancements of WWII.

Knowing what I know about the material specifications of the times, I'd say 100 degrees of overlap and 9mm lift would have been pretty cutting edge and quite racy for the 1930's.   Quite probably near to the limits of their valve springs . . . . . .

I'm sure you already are aware of this, but it is always worth repeating.  Re-manufacturing of the critical parts of these assemblies using "modern" materials, bearings, etc, can add life and reliability to these restoration projects.   Especially where no reliability may have existed before . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Mark
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 08, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Yes Fordboy,

The OHV has double hair pin type valve springs well out in the air flow and also had coil springs on the push rods at the bottom of the cylinder...

But the sidevalve only have a single coil spring per valve, also enclosed, I'll check if I can fit a slightly stronger one there cause the cams are indeed hairy...

Stuff is also starting to drop at the front door...

Tubes for bits of fabrication today and

Last week, Saddle, a rubber backed fabric item by Dunlop, named Drilastic, on an Ideale licence, and a Speedway spool hub for the front wheel:

(https://i.imgur.com/1pSa5Gl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lnosqjt.jpg)

I also put a nice sum on eBay for a sport carburettor, a one inch bore AMAC 15 MDY, to no avail, it went elsewhere...

(https://i.imgur.com/op4ICVW.jpg)

So long...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 08, 2018, 02:42:28 PM
Patrick,
I am always in awe of your kind of project. I love old motorcycles and to take one and bring it back to life and then race it is a true test of stubbornness!  Can't wait to see it finished!!

Rex
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 08, 2018, 03:26:15 PM
Thanks Rex...

Yes, I never choose the easy way!!!

The records I'm looking at, depending on category, are not too shabby for an 85 years old SV bike to beat, 250cc M-VF = 79.55mph, M-VG = 77.306mph, MPS-VF = 82.486mph and MPS-VG = 81.418mph

I've had a chat with the SCTA/BNI MC Tech Committee, it appears the balsa filler and sticky tape on the Webbs type forks put the bike in PS category...

Cheers, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 08, 2018, 08:47:33 PM
An expert can make digital profiles of your cams, weigh the valve train components, and use computer calculations to tell you exactly what springs are needed - both for strength and resistance to harmonic irregularities.  Then, they can suggest a reasonable safety factor to use in the design.  Another fix is to use ceramic coatings on the ports and cylinder head to keep the springs cool.   

This work sounds expensive.  It isn't when the cost of hard to replace parts is factored in.  An additional plus is the information you get can be used for other things, like optimizing the cam timing or having custom springs made. 

A source for good quality mousetrap springs are those folks in the UK who supply parts for the racing Nortons and Matchlesses.  The matchbox G-80's I had used those springs. 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 09, 2018, 06:46:42 AM
 :-D Wobblywalrus,

I'm running the side valve version, not the OHV, hence I'm stuck with using coil springs.

I'll check how far I can shim the OEM ones to improve seating pressure without going ""coil bind + 40 or 60 thou" at full opening...

I have a few coils springs from various Harley OHV heads, I'm sure I can find some harder ones in there!!!

As you might have seen, I'm not one for much testing!!! But I can make a quick jig to check their tension under a certain weight.

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on January 09, 2018, 10:25:46 AM
Happy Birthday Patrick.

It looks as if you have already received your present (some assembly required).    :cheers:

  Don
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 09, 2018, 11:06:25 AM
Thanks Don!!!

Yes, Christmas, New Year and Birthday all within 2 weeks, the fun never ceases!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: CNC-Dude on January 09, 2018, 03:00:29 PM
:-D Wobblywalrus,

 

I'll check how far I can shim the OEM ones to improve seating pressure without going ""coil bind + 40 or 60 thou" at full opening...
Patrick

Very nice project you have there. If I can add a few cents worth of experience to your build. Many racing cylinder head porters and builders try to not go closer than .100" before coil bind because it wears the springs out much faster due to over compressing them. I know people do and will continue to do it even when faced with facts and evidence it will. But maybe longer valves can help your valve spring selection and find a stiffer spring from more modern engines and possibly give you a much wider selection to choose from.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 09, 2018, 06:01:31 PM
Thanks, CNC-Dude,

I sensed I couldn't shim modern springs that tight, but you should see these OEM 85 years old springs, they nearly look like out of a retractable ball pen!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 16, 2018, 12:38:49 PM
Too cold here to do anything decent...

But Marek's luggage was back from Poland after his holidays there at Christmas...

Nice bloke, nice magneto!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/LzFaU0u.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BNnW6YH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Bxpg2wf.jpg)

More news soon I hope!!! Gotta make some room in the garage, too many bits everywhere!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 16, 2018, 05:21:00 PM
Hi, a bit of movement... Not before time!!!

Went to the St Pancras railway station in London today, 320 miles round trip... Met in a hurry a Belgian friend of mine, Yves Campion. He donated a racing/period AMAL type 27 for this project and I gave him this magneto as grateful thanks...

(https://i.imgur.com/airs1sv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nKU0QD5.jpg)

Yves always travel with this souvenir:

(https://i.imgur.com/1a322nD.jpg)

It's a lapel pin from Rene Milhoux, another famous Belgian rider who broke numerous records at Montlery in the 30s on Gillet d'Herstal and F.N. motorcycles. All successful record breakers got one, but I have never seen another one...

I also found a 2nd Bosch FF1 AL magneto, this time in Australia... Should arrive home here in GB by the end of this month...

(https://i.imgur.com/opwFy7f.jpg)

Weather is getting better, I'll soon start dismantling the donor bike... Promess, cross my heart!!!

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 16, 2018, 07:17:36 PM
Patrick, two magnetos is nice.  it is always a good idea to have an extra one ready to be quickly installed. 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Nortonist 592 on February 16, 2018, 09:47:48 PM
Hi Patrick,   Many years ago in Dublin I found on of those carbs in a dank, damp basement in Dublin.  Dragged it around with me for years and eventually back to California.  About 10 years ago a friend in Ireland was looking for one.  I was happy to mail it to him.  I'm looking forward to seeing this project come to life and run a record on the salt.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 17, 2018, 04:01:38 AM
Quote
Bill: About 10 years ago a friend in Ireland was looking for one

Hi Bill,

He would'nt happen to live in Enniskillen?

Yes, wobblywalrus, spare parts are always welcome!!! If only to make one very good one out of two average!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 22, 2018, 09:06:39 AM
Hi everybody,,

Some time back, I contacted the british VMCC to see what was in the mc press at the time...

I received these 3 extracts this morning. They contain more details than the french accounts I'm familiar with, in particular on the 2nd failed attemp a week before the actual record date... Nice interesting read...

(https://i.imgur.com/y8NIOsj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/r7CXyK4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tb0pza3.jpg)

See ya,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Stainless1 on February 22, 2018, 09:31:12 AM
Great articles... thanks...
From reading that, it appears the ECTA rules allowing running up in classes is not a new idea....
Quite the accomplishment for 1933  :cheers:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 22, 2018, 03:10:58 PM
Hi,

I also posted these GB articles on a french forum this afternoon...

And a friend chimed in and posted these period newspapers accounts...

Time to scrub up your french!!!  :-D

(http://www.500rgas.info/forum/download/file.php?id=429)

(http://www.500rgas.info/forum/download/file.php?id=430)

(http://www.500rgas.info/forum/download/file.php?id=431)

(http://www.500rgas.info/forum/download/file.php?id=432)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 25, 2018, 01:37:09 PM
An engine designed by an Italian and built by the French. What could be a greater challenge!!!

Rex
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 26, 2018, 03:42:15 PM
 :-D and paid for by an argentinian arms dealer, Dr (dentist...) Tito Rodolfo Jonghi, alias Rodolfo Von Chegger...  :-o

The model name , TJ 4, stands for Tito Jonghi, 4 HP (tax class for a 350cc in France...)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 03, 2018, 10:26:55 AM
Hi,

Bit of action today... The Bosch arrived from Australia, never seen such a nice piece of packaging!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/t3tqxSp.jpg)

I'm cleaning it at the moment, more photos later...

I also received a second hub, looks older and more like it, but sadly is way too big.

I did not touch the 1st one just in case, but it will now be used.

The hub is cast alloy and left as cast, with the wheels for the spokes in steel and pressed on.

(https://i.imgur.com/Y90Aw9k.jpg)

Center section looks horrible as cast, so time to swing it in the lathe...

(https://i.imgur.com/LsfiiWR.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xDGJkfZ.jpg)

The center was not only as cast, but also off round by about 1/8th, so I'm glad I did it!!!

See you all later..

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 04, 2018, 11:24:57 AM
A few photos of the mag inners...

(https://i.imgur.com/5L3GZaM.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oMnhnfz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/OfKoNeN.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BOxoPS6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QCF0s5R.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 19, 2018, 05:11:16 PM
Hi,

More clement weather these last 2 days so I made a start of dismantling the donor bike...

Look at all this space... Positively palatial...  :-D

(https://i.imgur.com/SiAIjOU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/h36pBuC.jpg)

Three hours later:

(https://i.imgur.com/9b7kMBg.jpg)

In between... Dropped the head, a tad rich in there...

(https://i.imgur.com/V75vanj.jpg)

Exhaust valve is stuck open...

(https://i.imgur.com/rFgkEJh.jpg)

The Bosch magneto just clears:

(https://i.imgur.com/EofCKvQ.jpg)

Good news, same tapers so the drive gear fits no sweat...

(https://i.imgur.com/Z1AhMCl.jpg)

More tomorrow after I go with the Buell Ulysses for its yearly roadworthy inspection...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 20, 2018, 01:06:37 AM
My shop is small, too.  I try not to have everything apart at the same time.  As an example, this year the engine was taken apart and redone.  It was back together last weekend.  Now I am taking the chassis apart for its maintenance and upgrades.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: revolutionary on March 20, 2018, 07:36:18 AM
Looks like a super neat project!
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 20, 2018, 04:59:06 PM
Hi,

Yeah... garage would be too small for 2 bikes, never mind 10 at the moment, plus lathe, micro miller, polishing wheel, bench, 3 welders, hydraulic ram press, parts, clothes, garden implements and, not to be forgoten, freezer!!!

Anyway, this afternoon, been trying to find a bolt big enough to do the magneto missing nut... nada, no luck...

...Then, tumbled across an old Buell mirror.. TILT!!! The bottom screw should do it, so recycle it from:

(https://i.imgur.com/8yPjT6f.jpg)

to this in about 1/4 of an hour:

(https://i.imgur.com/jNLlXaf.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZP1fo0d.jpg)

More dismantling... My method to block piston while unscrewing nuts from crankshafts: Big socket on top of piston:

(https://i.imgur.com/vgP1KMP.jpg)

Prevent piston upwards travel with whatever bit screwed on top, as here, 30's Harley tool that normally fixes on crank mouths to immobilize and allow work on con-rods to be done:

(https://i.imgur.com/duuJVoh.jpg)

Big lever, all done...

(https://i.imgur.com/4NBkQxW.jpg)

But the flywheel cone is well seated, it resisted my biggest hydraulic puller... Did not try too hard, will try again tomorrow and apply heat if needed...

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 28, 2018, 04:34:52 PM
Hi,

Drawn and have B&E Engineering in Crewe make me 2 extractors, one for the magneto and the other for the flywheel. Picked them today, early afternoon:

(https://i.imgur.com/A015TOa.jpg)

Quick sandwich and direction the garage!!! Forgot to say, but the engine won't go out of the frame with the flywheel on...

(https://i.imgur.com/ZJFXujg.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/GdaU0TG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fvZvrHN.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BfsJfoo.jpg)

Very greasy in there and in rather good nick if compared to the outside!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/QF7FrtJ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HRtaYsR.jpg)

These engines where individually machined and assembled and have a unique number stamped on all the castings and some internal parts, 114 in this case (they probably started at 101, so that would be engine number 14. My other restored one is 109):

(https://i.imgur.com/a2YIWUw.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ozAmX7r.jpg)

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 28, 2018, 11:50:45 PM
Thanks for posting those pix.  That is a nice project.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 30, 2018, 04:26:15 PM
More pics then, Wobblywalrus!!!

Crank and its 2 main ball bearings (there's also a 3rd one between the drive gear and the outside flywheel, located inside the primary cast alloy cover)

(https://i.imgur.com/qLMK5hU.jpg)

#114 again...

(https://i.imgur.com/0zzIIiM.jpg)

The small TJ stamp found on all the machined parts:

(https://i.imgur.com/GUhruzR.jpg)

Found opposite the above one, an even smaller stamp, was lucky here on the oil pump drive gear, it is usually totally unlegible...

(https://i.imgur.com/gdCUyKs.jpg)

Bronze bodied oil pump and ancillaries:

(https://i.imgur.com/prZjFGo.jpg)

I then tried to pull out the clutch holding plate, no luck... Rather than do sommat silly, went and done the small alloy plate to bring the magneto to the right hight, about 1/8" thick:

(https://i.imgur.com/OXzq32l.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/0n7VMRX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JQr5Zzd.jpg)

Bye for now, have a good Easter break...

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 02, 2018, 03:35:38 PM
A day more was enough to come up with the goods to get the final bits of the gearbox out...

(https://i.imgur.com/AOUQh6u.jpg)

Four ball bearings in there, with three being obsolete, made out of unobtainum...

Clutch bell one:

(https://i.imgur.com/fmubDqm.jpg)

Two similar ones, big diameter and dead skinny, that support the secontary gear assembly, all made in one piece:

(https://i.imgur.com/kCbyedD.jpg)

And as usual with "crash" gearboxes, 2nd gears are well worn out. I will visit a local gear manufacturere to see what can we do to renew them...

(https://i.imgur.com/x2mNkQ2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TVUPj2s.jpg)

See you around, back to work tomorrow... : O (

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 06, 2018, 03:47:00 AM
Hi all,

Small packet arrived from France today from Claude Caucal who passed to me the TT 2 racing parts...

Contained the slide spring and the air intake for the carburettor... Many thanks!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/6jGS33x.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uY1eLsC.jpg)

Bit by bit, the puzzle gets there!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 24, 2018, 10:43:17 AM
Hi, boring stuff done recently, cleaning bits mostly...  :-(

Following problems 2 weeks ago with clutch castlenated nut, I redone the spanner to make it tighter and foolproof...

(https://i.imgur.com/ubvbHwn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QSEWMiI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Ww2OQ83.jpg)

Also done a wooden jig this weekend to evaluate the rebrazing of the twin floats at the right angle for my horizontal carburettor:

(https://i.imgur.com/3v9Lqtv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ltB27vs.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/K83FSIg.jpg)

Will transfer all this to a proper steel jig next weekend...

If one of you has good tips to silver braze these brass bits, I'm all ears!!!

See you all soon,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 24, 2018, 10:59:37 PM
Reply 45 shows the small stamp on the oil pump gear.  Is that a crack at the root of one of those teeth?  That looks like a great build.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 28, 2018, 12:40:54 PM
Hi,

Made a proper steel jig to braze the float chambers...

(https://i.imgur.com/0idiC04.jpg)

Brazed half yesterday...

(https://i.imgur.com/zim4Je5.jpg)

Was not too sure, looking at the brazing, so I switch off and did all the bits for the carb air correction channel:

(https://i.imgur.com/TZcaP3W.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/565N02N.jpg)

Finish the brazing today:

(https://i.imgur.com/LQTSZHM.jpg)

I only have a micro miller in the garage, too small for the spot facing, so another jig in the lathe... Not too successful, not rigid enough and too much overhang hence vibrations... I'll drop the floats at my fav machinist in the week...

(https://i.imgur.com/RiFREa3.jpg)

In the mean time, a good filing seance to clean all that extra silver braze...

(https://i.imgur.com/0tOnbb5.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fq9jNdJ.jpg)

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Old Scrambler on April 29, 2018, 05:22:40 PM
Nice work :-) :-) :-)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 04, 2018, 09:41:22 AM
Thanks, Old Scrambler...

My friend did the spot facing this week, all good and tested for no leaks...

(https://i.imgur.com/PdGhpDn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/CcDwVtB.jpg)

Doin' the float's ticklers at the moment...

See you, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 07, 2018, 03:40:44 AM
All the Jonghi engines have a pairing number... This one is 114:

(https://i.imgur.com/IjCLMQf.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/u0kLQcj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dbzV9Gn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rmuzwVq.jpg)

I have finished the ticklers:

(https://i.imgur.com/72WamSt.jpg)

And lengthened the magneto strap, this Bosch is way taller than the standard Magneto France item...

(https://i.imgur.com/552zMK9.jpg)

Bye for now, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 07, 2018, 01:39:53 PM
Magneto earthing post:

(https://i.imgur.com/ECyXE9v.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Tjewzkn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QfUmYxL.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/eqtzPPU.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 14, 2018, 12:47:17 PM
Hi,

Been pulling off the cam followers guides so I can bring the cylinder and timing cover to my machinist to have the deck just skimmed enough to have it flat within a thou and dead parallel with the cranshaft...

(https://i.imgur.com/MiyGZdV.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/5hlZCtv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/sl46MoS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/OGczfH8.jpg)

   
Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 25, 2018, 05:06:07 AM
Got all my sand blasted bits last Friday, so time spent in the garage went up!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/R0PX3AP.jpg)
   
(https://i.imgur.com/nKpZ1EM.jpg)

I bought a can of cellulose varnish and a can of cellulose silver... Started experimenting with the varnish directly brushed on the parts, nive grey look, reminds me of the XR1000 paint job...

(https://i.imgur.com/ZHnh08N.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/DeKEX2Z.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tUfQpfg.jpg)

The record breaker forks were streamlined with chatterton, a kind of cloth reinforced sticky tape. To achieve that, the inside spaces of the forks are filled with balsa wood... Here we go!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/4w4vAal.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/0IZPu3q.jpg)

Quick experiment with gaffer tape, no good!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/Z36C3Ct.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Doc B. on May 25, 2018, 08:41:02 AM
For what it's worth, here is a pic of what you might be looking for -

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=b9ba29b7-0206-44bc-9fd1-23647df22b62&Enum=103 (http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=b9ba29b7-0206-44bc-9fd1-23647df22b62&Enum=103)

(http://velobase.com/CompImages/SmallParts/11848C8F-02A8-42BB-B746-463FB281DE0B.jpeg)

The closest currently made thing might be hockey stick grip tape.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 25, 2018, 11:26:27 AM
 :-D Yep, Doc B, that's the thing!

I'll look for some... Needs to be silver colored...

Thanks for the link.

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Doc B. on May 25, 2018, 01:22:31 PM
If this stuff was made in the 30's I would imagine the silver color might be something like butyrate dope over the cotton.

Maybe you could paint it?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chatterton-Fabric-Adhesive-50mmx50-panastore/dp/B06X9GV9B1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chatterton-Fabric-Adhesive-50mmx50-panastore/dp/B06X9GV9B1)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 25, 2018, 05:38:20 PM
No idea, Dr B. ...The French call electrical tape Chatterton as well!!!

More work done this afternoon: The footrests need to move back in the frame, so I cut and moved the anchors...

(https://i.imgur.com/VMTWGYf.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RHe6BRn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/eIQ8L5r.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/c64Cd32.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1qZfBto.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/galvopP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7MAgnWW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/C9UCtAF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/60WUv3Y.jpg)

More frame mods tomorrow!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on May 25, 2018, 09:47:44 PM
That should work.  But don't forget, if the footpegs are within 6" of the rear axle, you'll have to run "A' Class.
Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 26, 2018, 04:04:48 AM
Yes, Koncretekid,

The right one is OK, the left one's a tad too long.

They aren't the right shape anyway, so they'll be redone later on...

That's where they were on the 1933 record bike:

(https://i.imgur.com/Zgtc0nd.jpg)

Will try now to unbrase the brake pedal anchor...

Wish me luck, I don't feel my small torch will give me enough heat to unbrase it...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 26, 2018, 11:09:50 AM
Hi,

Left the frame alone today cause I recieved this morning all the bits to do the front axle:

(https://i.imgur.com/U9nD35a.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/diOl7bw.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WBzljbN.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Y2Jw0FB.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/aEQ0lom.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8WBpUaz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/38lWPc9.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: manta22 on May 26, 2018, 12:21:00 PM
Patrick;

Consider drilling the bolt head and nut for safety wire.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 26, 2018, 03:15:51 PM
It's in the planning, Neil...

5mn left before dinner, so I attacked the side car eyes without mercy...  :-D :-D

(https://i.imgur.com/kHQIpQ7.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KGnda7f.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/slLWeyI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KLvRwK8.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 28, 2018, 06:16:32 PM
Long session today, but worthwhile... Foot rests

(https://i.imgur.com/mEb6ecR.jpg)

I have plenty of spare spanners in which to make strong parts  :-D...

(https://i.imgur.com/sW2N5df.jpg)

Tubes with threads welded at both ends.

(https://i.imgur.com/lR04eqg.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AdXti3R.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gSyV3F7.jpg)

Small walk with Susan in the early afternoon... Once back, started on the rear brake pedal...

(https://i.imgur.com/M1s8XaP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/u9hqN5c.jpg)

Just polished et temporarely fixed this period aftermarket french Vitex foot change that has been following me for about 40 years...

(https://i.imgur.com/NwALLD4.jpg)

We'll see much later if it's suitable...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 08, 2018, 04:17:58 AM
Hi,

The brakes have poor guidance for the acting cam, specially on the back where the lever has a pronounced offset... Let's modify all this and get a straight lever...

(https://i.imgur.com/XX5To4A.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RokddcD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BrHmCrZ.jpg)
Eyeballing the geometry wanted, two more spanners will be sacrified...

(https://i.imgur.com/STK7Lwj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WsZyOCC.jpg)

Nearly all done...

(https://i.imgur.com/duaFZfS.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 08, 2018, 04:26:10 AM
Hi,

Bit of reinforcement of the torque arm, its two little flats were a touch flimsy...

(https://i.imgur.com/Um1v3UD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lBen3sa.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/K3p4rGa.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: manta22 on June 08, 2018, 06:47:12 PM
Patrick;

What braze welding alloy are you using?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 10, 2018, 02:54:33 PM
 :-D

I don't really know, Neil...

They came from my 1st job in GB back in 1985...

The firm went bust and I was told to help myself since we, newer guys, had no access to redudancy payments... So that's what I took, together with a little Myford lathe with lots of missing bits!!!

Now down to the last 10 rods...

They have flux imbeded in little depressions on the periphery...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: manta22 on June 10, 2018, 03:08:52 PM
Patrick;

It appears to be a bead-forming alloy, similar to All-State 11, etc. Good Stuff!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ggl205 on June 10, 2018, 03:47:51 PM
Patrick;

It appears to be a bead-forming alloy, similar to All-State 11, etc. Good Stuff!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

The U.K. is still king of brazed joins.

John
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on June 10, 2018, 09:37:51 PM
Patrick;

It appears to be a bead-forming alloy, similar to All-State 11, etc. Good Stuff!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

The U.K. is still king of brazed joins.

John


Yeah, but the U.S. is the king of rolled joints.    :roll:

 Ok so maybe it's Jamaica.     :-D

Patrick, thanks for sharing your restoration.
Nice fab work.

  Don
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 15, 2018, 12:00:58 PM
Hi, rolled joints, you're cracking me up...

Done a lot recently, hubs have been sent to build the wheels, I've redone a few bits for the forks, nowt too entertaining really!!! But today, I started on the crank...

(https://i.imgur.com/DNVdmjM.jpg)

The bike is indeed French, but the pin, race and rollers are from Great Britain, Hoffmann made:

(https://i.imgur.com/b0HEhLF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tsmCeKk.jpg)

Strange thing on Jonghi 350cc... The six holes on the wheels are filled with lead... With age, centrigugal force and mileage, they start moving a lot.

I'll recast all that like on my 1st TJ 4 and will immobilize the lot a bit better with screws.

(https://i.imgur.com/1SxkxYw.jpg)

Rapid polishing of the rod:

(https://i.imgur.com/T9SOEEt.jpg)

Old air drill to get to the innaccessible corners of the rod...

(https://i.imgur.com/dHWsmHK.jpg)

See you,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: manta22 on June 15, 2018, 05:53:10 PM
Patrick;

I wonder if this would keep the lead weights in place:

1. Clean the ID of each hole.
2. brush flux on the ID of each hole.
3. Cast the weights with 63/37 solder.

The solder should create a bond with the crank counterweights if the counterweight can be brought up to the melting point of this alloy, 361F.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 15, 2018, 06:38:21 PM
I like your thinking, Neil,  :-D

I'll have a go, but the tinning of the the inner walls might bond with pure lead anyway?

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Ron Gibson on June 15, 2018, 07:06:08 PM
I think the pure lead is way softer and will have a tendency to distort or flow more even if it is bonded to the holes. You can take a stick of 70/30 body lead and hang half of it over an edge. In time it will bend completely down under it's own weight.

Ron
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: manta22 on June 15, 2018, 08:14:48 PM
I like your thinking, Neil,  :-D

I'll have a go, but the tinning of the the inner walls might bond with pure lead anyway?

Patrick

Patrick;

The reason I suggested using a 63/37 solder alloy is that it has the lowest melting point of any solder. Easier on your crankshaft.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 16, 2018, 03:48:02 AM
Thank you both, Neil, Ron, for the advise...

This is the lead I have, roofing lead...

(https://i.imgur.com/aNSb93r.jpg)

I bought a roll some years back when I repaired some of my roof that had a few broken tiles...

Would that be pure lead? It's very soft and easy to fashion...

The roll was round when I bought it!!!

Now collapsed under its own weight!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: bones on June 17, 2018, 02:06:42 AM
Hi Patrick
  Re the lead weights in the crank. Can you get hold of some "mallory metal" and turn the weights.
 then press the pieces into the crank holes.They won't go anywhere. It's a carbide based metal that is machinable.

Also with the big end. If you have to replace the big end pin it would be a good idea to get rid of the crowded roller
setup. You should be able to find a caged big end bearing , with a silver plated cage preferably.

   cheers    Bones

 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 17, 2018, 05:14:35 AM
Whaooo, we're getting somewhere!!!

Never heard before about this mallory alloy, that's what I love about this forum, lots of guys with slightly different perspectives and backgrounds, so plenty of proper advise given...

This is what I found about densities:

Iron: 7.87

Lead: 11.35

Mallory alloy: from 17 to 18.5

I did my 1st Jonghi 3 years ago with lead, despite not liking one bit the shape of the slugs that came out of it...

On this one, the slugs were moving about quite a bit but their weight is pretty consistant within 5 grammes which tells me none of it departed towards the bottom of the crankcases.

So I have a good reference for the weight to be added, rather than just fill the holes flush.

(https://i.imgur.com/A3zkABf.jpg)

The big end and ancillaries are perfect, I'll leave them as is at this stage.

Just a bit of work, filing and polishing, to clean up the rod...

I also have a full set of NOS replacements, rod race, pin, nuts, rollers in a jar full of oil...  :-D

(https://i.imgur.com/RpMNJ8H.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xHkYha7.jpg)

Thanks again!!! Well appreciated!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 17, 2018, 09:37:57 AM
Busy weekend ,

I'll leave the crank alone while I investigate this Mallory alloy....

So, instead, I started the second petrol tank cap... It went better than I thought it would... (sommat bad bound to happen soon...)

(https://i.imgur.com/WaervGl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XIr9UnY.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Zxli3Kx.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AGqIkfX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BUhmnKZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/smdPPZ3.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/waBAJYQ.jpg)

In them days, these english caps came with four different levers, the flat one as shown, the basculing lever as on Sarolea Gregoire "monotube", the Brough Superior version with three balls and the Jonghi one with just one ball.

Today, only the flat lever is available...

I'll do the Jonghi version later, much classier!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/VszpnxC.jpg)

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ggl205 on June 17, 2018, 11:09:06 AM
Never heard before about this mallory alloy, that's what I love about this forum, lots of guys with slightly different perspectives and backgrounds, so plenty of proper advise given

Mallory metal (also known by several other names) is just a tungsten alloy used for balancing cranks. Easy to tack weld too.

John
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: manta22 on June 17, 2018, 07:10:53 PM
Never heard before about this mallory alloy, that's what I love about this forum, lots of guys with slightly different perspectives and backgrounds, so plenty of proper advise given

Mallory metal (also known by several other names) is just a tungsten alloy used for balancing cranks. Easy to tack weld too.

John

Expensive too!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 18, 2018, 09:43:35 AM
I'll see the costs when I find a supplier!!!

I finished yesterday by taking off the knee grips steel holders.

They'll be reused later once the tank extension is done. Plus a few rubbers to insulate the tank from the insane power of this engine  :-D

(https://i.imgur.com/QAQcXfV.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/E8K1PK6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AnTEXqg.jpg)

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 18, 2018, 11:22:41 AM
Patrick, you can heat the crank in a kitchen oven to around 450 degrees F.  Then, pour the lead in the holes.  The crank will cool and contract around the lead and this will help to hold it in place.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: manta22 on June 18, 2018, 11:25:57 AM
WW;

If he uses a flux, the lead will be soldered onto the crank. No shrink-fit is needed but it will help.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 18, 2018, 01:34:29 PM
Hi,

I could do a lot of things with lead, but thinking about it, that's all they had as heavy metal in the 30s...

The std street Jonghi side valve was given for 4500 rpm...

The carb, cams and overlap of TT 2 should see its revs rise to well over 6000rpm, a 33% increase and centrigugal force rises at the square of the rpm.

Loads more strain...

I know the Jonghi racers had a different crank arrangement, but no photos or drawings have been found so far.

So, faced with using the street crank, I fancy improving it a touch!!!

Thanks again to all for the to and fro, it helps narrowing down the solutions.

See ya all,

Patrick

 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 18, 2018, 03:36:37 PM
Bit more done this afternoon after work: Air vent fitting for the tank...

(https://i.imgur.com/aM5mJ2c.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TtrjVC9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rqqSCdz.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Harold Bettes on June 18, 2018, 06:56:49 PM
Patrick,

Looks like a fun project. The challenges of recovery, restoration, and performance improvement are time consumers but provide much in rewards. 8-)

Question on the balance of the single cylinder engine: What % of reciprocating vs rotating weight are you trying to do? Seems I recall that a number of 36% to 40% was often used on performance poppers but do not remember exactly.

Although the tungsten material (Mallory metal alloy) is good to use, it is expensive. :-o

Good Luck on your interesting project. :cheers:

Regards,
HB2 :-)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 22, 2018, 04:16:05 AM
Hi Harold, I do not know the Jonghi balance factor.

The only thing I can say is that they are not known to be boneshackers!!! And I know the balancing weight I removed as lead.

I leave the crank alone for the time being as it is not too urgent...

Continuing work on the cycle parts... Handlebars decision time soon.

TT 2 had quite a wide set up to cope with the pains of a 24 hour run.

I want it tighter for smaller run lengths on the Salt Flats.

The outside bits in the horizontal plane:

(https://i.imgur.com/YRNGBF4.jpg)

Vertical plane:

(https://i.imgur.com/eh5eskG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/yuq9FdV.jpg)

In between:

(https://i.imgur.com/PN3KC2B.jpg)

With fork stops to limit the steering to allowed 15 degrees:

(https://i.imgur.com/ijel6cr.jpg)

I'll leave it for a while before welding for good!!!

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on June 22, 2018, 11:17:04 AM
Alpha Bearings in the West Midlands helped me 46 years ago with my Matchless and they are still in business.  They specialize in the crank work you need.  The typical procedure is to figure out the weights while dynamically balancing the crank/rod/piston assembly.  Really, one cannot be done without doing the other.  They might be the help you need.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 22, 2018, 11:57:44 AM
Hi wobblywalrus,

Yes, I know Alpha Bearings, they have done work for me in the past, mostly obsolete crankpins or rod races.

I have done quite a few Harley Sportsters and K/KH cranks in the past, always used the race shop 50 % of the reciprocating weight rather than the there about std 60 % the factory use on their street models.

The race 50 % factor on these V twins seems to push the dreaded "around 4500 rpm" vibration out of the available rev range, so I like it, but I'm not sure at all it'll be the same factor on a single!!!

I'm not too worried anyway, as I said, I don't know the balance factor, but I do know the weight I've taken out as lead!!!

I might spend tomorrow weighting all the bits of the crank assembly, and then, I can have a go at calculating the factor they used in them days!

Thanks again,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: sofadriver on June 22, 2018, 09:54:34 PM
there's no steering degree limit any more.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 23, 2018, 03:21:45 AM
Hi, Sofadriver,

 :-D I'll have to find meself another rule book, the latest I have is 2014!!!

But I'll need the stops if I go for the extreme look:

Just tacked with silver braze to have a good look at it...

(https://i.imgur.com/C42YlpV.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/hVDPPWr.jpg)

Before and after, nothing like elbow grease and a small polishing mop!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/t7QhfFj.jpg)

Assembled the AMAC levers on their perches and fitted with locking wire, good looks...

(https://i.imgur.com/C322rh0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/o426BwV.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KkqyaLE.jpg)

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 24, 2018, 03:04:28 AM
Hi,

Done some calcs yesterday for evaluating crank balance. Balancing the rod on horizontal edge to find its equilibrium point:

(https://i.imgur.com/AxeUI2a.jpg)

This to find the two distances that allow the calcs of rod rotating weight and reciprocating weight.

(https://i.imgur.com/EqinpoH.jpg)

Then calc sheet "a la" Harley KR, assuming a 50% factor (factor at this stage is unknown for this single)

(https://i.imgur.com/oKod9v2.jpg)

I'll check more today to see if I can easily determine repartition of masses on the crank itself, not that evident!

(https://i.imgur.com/Nh7nitz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/l7kRmVv.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Old Scrambler on June 24, 2018, 08:54:08 AM
Patrick..........I run a Triumph T20 Cub at the AMA-sanctioned BMST. I began with an early model but converted the big-end crank bearing to a later roller-cage and used the original crank-weight. Because the 243cc piston is heavier, the balance is slightly changed from original. It begins to buzz at 7,000-rpm :|but so far has held together for more than 2-dozen runs on the salt.

I see in your pics a few 'nicks' along the rod.  Your plan to increase the rpms will obviously stress the rotating masses..............My experience with a small single versus a twin is to keep the crank near its original weight/balance. I like your project and watch with great interest...........carry-on 8-) 8-) 8-)   
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on July 01, 2018, 03:47:53 PM
Thanks, Old Scrambler!!!

I had a few diffuculties finishing the handlebars recently!!!

Nearly there at last!!!

Kill button and main ignition switch:

(https://i.imgur.com/FTVnHVC.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LVIR0A8.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/E6cJYcv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/L5guSO6.jpg)

Few more bits made for the magneto:

(https://i.imgur.com/tAuOWoP.jpg)

Tried to whiten the alloy cases with caustic soda, not entirely satisfied, will try to find some acid, works much better!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/73DKHxd.jpg)

Also dropped the hight of the steering damper knob, so had to move the star spring from top to bottom. Done a small spring for the knob, that job is normally done via the spring holder which is now discarded.

(https://i.imgur.com/SqmyZKF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xF1WTyT.jpg)

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Old Scrambler on July 03, 2018, 10:09:39 AM
The safety 'kill' switch must be lanyard operated.........
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on July 03, 2018, 04:15:21 PM
It will be, Old Scrambler, all mechanical, operated from the twist grip on the left hand side, auto spring loaded tap plus 2nd kill switch behind the tap.

Similar to what I did on my KHK in 2011:

(https://i.imgur.com/58zGPxW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vLTiY2B.jpg)

The wedge that keep the cable tentionned and the valve open has a strap to my left wrist. If I fall, the wedge goes out, valve closes and kills ignition as well.

See ya,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 04, 2018, 12:46:20 PM
Hi,

Still no wheels, so small jobs only these days......

I dismantled the cylinder and head from my other Jonghi since I had lots of work done on them, I'll use these on the record bike...

Standard Cylinder with flat deck:

(https://i.imgur.com/MAvhcyJ.jpg)

Cylinder with sunk valves and channel dug between seats and bore...

(https://i.imgur.com/gScbvQn.jpg)

Standard head without work done:

(https://i.imgur.com/sm2Mx7v.jpg)

The standard cylinder and head use a copper/aspestos gasket. Not ideal on a fast side valve since the squish is bigger and variable depending on gasket compression. So, like on KRs, no gasket used and replace with high temp paint, a lot more durable than what you might think. The piston is slightly domed, so small interference and material removed till I measured 20 thou clearance.

(https://i.imgur.com/KsOQp3c.jpg)

Channel with piston at TDC:

(https://i.imgur.com/Gaz2fDN.jpg)

Piston and its pin with PTFE keepers:

(https://i.imgur.com/lWvpD5y.jpg)

Curved transition around valves:

(https://i.imgur.com/l9unCb4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Sy9nFTC.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: konon on August 05, 2018, 09:34:52 AM
Does the intake have a hollow valve stem ?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 05, 2018, 10:18:07 AM
No, it's just very "tuliped" as we say in France...

ie shaped like the flower, or a trumpet end, or a saxophone end. :mrgreen:

VG for an OHV/OHC, but not at all the right shape for a side valve, should be much flatter with 30 degrees seats, but I don't know if my finances can stretch to a pair of forged stainless valves...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 09, 2018, 08:49:15 AM
Good day today...

1st a little packet with some 20 Widthworth nuts from my friend Frederic in France, thanks again!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/5rOdtnm.jpg)

And 2nd, a MASSIVE box with my two 21" wheels in...

(https://i.imgur.com/FBhJz44.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/R5nAjmR.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BMU5Hce.jpg)

Not goin' straight on them, I've ran out of Argon for the TIG welder, off to swap the bottle...

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 09, 2018, 12:31:02 PM
 :-D

(https://i.imgur.com/wCHiVbV.jpg)

 :-D

(https://i.imgur.com/KQTj1ZR.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Harold Bettes on August 09, 2018, 02:28:30 PM
Patrick,

What diameters are the valves? What is the overall length of the valves? And of course, what is the stem diameter?

What is the CR of the thing? Approx 6:1 or so?

Regards,
HB2
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 09, 2018, 04:24:07 PM
Hi Harold,

Valves are both the same dimms, but the inlet is more tuliped than the exhaust.

They used the same valves on the OHV version...

Head diameter 44.5mm, 1"751, length 121mm, 4"763, stem diameter 9mm, 354 thou.

Not too restricted then for a 70mm bore and 90mm stroke

The head has no "Ricardo" squish, I doubt there more than 4.5 CR... I'll measure it soon.

Thanks for theyour interest,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 11, 2018, 10:33:46 AM
Exhaust pipe...

(https://i.imgur.com/OcYDBPs.jpg)

Curve retouched and small extension to get it to 38" from valve to end like my KHK...

(https://i.imgur.com/05Xz2vS.jpg)

Recycled stainless brackets:

(https://i.imgur.com/ErmXWHY.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lHMcD8S.jpg)

Welded back to back:

(https://i.imgur.com/dFsYMiA.jpg)

Frame bracket:

(https://i.imgur.com/UrVrWJO.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rIv2iz4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xz21Vct.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/PVbc6n6.jpg)

So long,

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on August 11, 2018, 01:33:31 PM
That might be a good place to put a rubber mount between the header and the bracket on the frame so the pipe can grow and contract due to thermal expansion and not overstress the bracket.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 23, 2018, 05:30:13 PM
Hi Everybody,

Not too much enthusiasm these last weeks, two funerals, old friends of my wife Susan... Plus a few difficulties to visualise the braketry needed for the saddle...

The vertical supports are easy enough to do...

(https://i.imgur.com/TRA2Rk2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/wV9eVq1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/FRRO0nr.jpg)

After that, quite challenging, space geometry with the saddle suspended precariously above the tyre!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/6fTccTS.jpg)

It stayed like this for about a week, time and rest needed to decide where to start the rest.

Started with the front, A Frame, don't quite see where the word stemed from!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/0EnkRcA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vU5p8Dk.jpg)

Above these was a bit Gaudiesque, branches in every direction towards the saddle frame. I started with the lateral ones.

(https://i.imgur.com/oymuLjN.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/sBpqYzX.jpg)

Just enough support to allow spot brasing...

(https://i.imgur.com/3p2RuDY.jpg)

I'll continue with the front branches tomorrow.

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 25, 2018, 12:19:39 PM
Hi...

Finished saddle frame, just needs a good seance of filing...

(https://i.imgur.com/Yt2oixk.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gCkEwZY.jpg)

Then rear fender, there were none on the original bike, but SCTIA/BNI who run Bonneville Speed Week insists it's mandatory...

(https://i.imgur.com/9eHGloR.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/95keRop.jpg)

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 28, 2018, 03:47:08 PM
Hi,

Needed sommat to relax this weekend... Nothing like monotonous stuff to do that!!!

Swiss cheese endeavour for the rear sproket!!!!

I started with this boring part:

(https://i.imgur.com/84wdImN.jpg)

Central portion thinned out:

(https://i.imgur.com/oUZkbB6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oWeee8M.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fdFd94Q.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/QC91ES1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/slLFxm3.jpg)

Cheers,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on August 28, 2018, 06:41:57 PM
Nice work, Patrick!  Do you plan to bring the bike to Bonneville?

The valve sizes sound huge for the 70mm bore.  44mm intake valve is the same as for the 84mm bore BSA B50.
How did they ever fit the same valve sizes in the overhead valve version?

Tom 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on August 29, 2018, 01:40:29 AM
 :-D With great difficulty, Tom!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/4WzNHRJ.jpg)

And yes, the plan is to bring this bike to Speed Week next year if all goes well...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on September 05, 2018, 04:07:17 AM
Hi,

Finished the saddle frame...

(https://i.imgur.com/PTIU4HT.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JkCDXO8.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/UO1iYaX.jpg)

And did a 18/14 reducer for the spark plug:

(https://i.imgur.com/zJqoMCP.jpg)

Choice of modern super cold NGK:

(https://i.imgur.com/dewCMIV.jpg)

Of NOS Harley KR Champion plug:

(https://i.imgur.com/88dklGR.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on October 26, 2018, 04:02:44 PM
Hi...

Still waiting for a retired panel beater to get in touch with me about the tank...
While waiting, why not try???

Big sheet of duct alloy

(https://i.imgur.com/PMFjMPS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/UvUw6eD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nOJhkKx.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JVdQoat.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JShDYtA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/roMStai.jpg)

Another friend has a wheel for the curves...

Bye for now, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Stainless1 on October 27, 2018, 09:38:54 PM
Are those retracted gap plugs...  :cheers:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on October 29, 2018, 08:02:12 AM
 :-D

After that photo, I remembered I had some super strong  hard drive magnets so I used them, more discreet!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/1EN75TU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/eIPkifN.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on December 24, 2018, 11:41:51 AM
... Ah, Christmas is upon us...

So just in time to start work again on this Jonghi!!!

Just a little appetizer to begin with...

There is an OEM complex brass bush on the right main shaft to allow the oil to pass from the pump to the rod rollers:

(https://i.imgur.com/Eazo2W9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/12KgAhV.jpg)

As soon as there's a bit of play, oil takes the easy way and returns directly to the timing cavity, hence starving the rollers, not good...

I did redo the same exact brass bush on my other TJ 4, but it's a pain really...

Thankfully, there is enough width to fit 2 back to back lip seals to improve oil transfer:

(https://i.imgur.com/QResZo1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bc4OEID.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AvCfxjL.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Xp0ETmY.jpg)

So long, I hope you all have a good end of year...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on December 24, 2018, 08:04:02 PM
Merry Christmas to you,too, Patrick.  It is a nice time to stay in the shed and build things.  It is too dang cold outside. 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Old Scrambler on December 25, 2018, 11:12:04 PM
Thank you for the good wishes.........and Merry Christmas :-)

Will you run synthetic oil in the crank?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on December 26, 2018, 09:51:38 AM
Old Scrambler,

I will put very light oil in there.

The whole engine shares the same oil, contained underneath it in a biggish sump

(external oil tank is just a reserve, fed to the engine via a float like in a carburetor, will leave it on but will not use it)

The clutch is a wet brass/steel plates affair that needs even lighter oil to work proper.

I will blank all the oil communicating galleries and use separate ATP in the clutch and gear box compartments...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: rgdavid on December 26, 2018, 12:02:05 PM
For your clutch...ive got a husqvarna 390 automatic with brass centrifugal clutches, its recomended not to use atp but ohlins shock absorber oil, (there is a special husky auto oil but it costs a lot)  some differentials need a special oil aswell , like my iveco daily diff which has brass in it and some 50's and 60's peugots,  i think they recomend a "jl" oil ou something like that,  normal gearbox or diff oil wears the brass by holding the brass in the oil instead of letting it fall to the bottom of the casing,
I tried atp in my auto and can confirme this when changing oil.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on December 26, 2018, 05:34:25 PM
I have ran ATP in my Harley Bonneville KHK and also in most of my Harley Ks and Sportsters on the street over the years, these old things seem to like it... specially with wet clutches...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on December 30, 2018, 06:17:50 AM
Hi,

Started the tank extension yesterday... Since my alloy template wasn't quite symmetrical, I cut it in half:

(https://i.imgur.com/S3M42vX.jpg)

Flattened and penciled it out recto/verso on a 0,8mm thick steel sheet:

(https://i.imgur.com/vze2epJ.jpg)

Cutting it lasted a while...

(https://i.imgur.com/1r8a3yI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XuO55HD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/M82vXWw.jpg)

Then big tube in the vice to get the approximate curves:

(https://i.imgur.com/18xTNNF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oQp1D4f.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ByQwQ97.jpg)

Back in the garage in 5minutes for more detailing!!!

See you,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 05, 2019, 10:34:04 AM
Bit more work done today,

Starting to look like summat....                                                                       

(https://i.imgur.com/JIQLYW0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7fm5tpP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9FvaJfH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/qijCoLy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Njd3CTn.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 06, 2019, 11:40:00 AM
Hi...

Fitted today the John Bull knee grips:

(https://i.imgur.com/KoHvawu.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Lym65gJ.jpg)

Then prepared all the parts needing mods for my machinist, I'll pop to see him next week...

Also ordered a few small bits to start sawing up the leather pouch that sits on the end of the gas tank...

See you,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ProjectROTM on January 06, 2019, 01:08:43 PM
Bit more work done today,

Starting to look like summat....                                                                       

(https://i.imgur.com/9FvaJfH.jpg)

Patrick

I like the seat position. I see what you mean about moving the seat on my bike even further back.

It looks like a great build so far.

Regards,

Project ROTM
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 09, 2019, 02:37:23 PM
Hi,

68 today, a few prezzies and more stuff for the bike, including a ground bar to check crank vs cylinder deck parallelism...

I started 2 days ago to do the inserts that will go in the ball bearing locations so my machine man can clock the deck:

(https://i.imgur.com/3ljNq8B.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/h4Xw2e1.jpg)

Inserted in locations:

(https://i.imgur.com/sLNT5VP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mCFT4Hz.jpg)

Bolted up the timing cover to the crankcase, less than 1/2 thou clearance and nothing is biding, so I can be sure both locations are dead in line. So all ready for a trip to Crewe this Friday!

(https://i.imgur.com/q9xvX96.jpg)

Also started the gas tap, high flow and a touch cumbersome, I'll revise it later to delete as many nuts as possible!

(https://i.imgur.com/taGCh2a.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/x2OK5iV.jpg)

Bye for now,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 11, 2019, 02:16:36 PM
Hi,

Spent the morning in Crewe with my Fab Machinist...

Should have the bits back within 2 weeks

Afternoon spent modifying/shortening the tap...

(https://i.imgur.com/tz98WZW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gp6WS11.jpg)

The big single nut will be welded to the tank underside. It's big enough so I can pass a small filter through it...

(https://i.imgur.com/WgBAvWe.jpg)

Number plates in alloy sheet also arrived today:

(https://i.imgur.com/XRXfACA.jpg)

As well as a smal sewing kit for the tank leather pad:

(https://i.imgur.com/hkEF6QM.jpg)

See you,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Old Scrambler on January 11, 2019, 06:41:14 PM
knit one; pearl two..............or is it more like shoe-laces? :-D

Great Project :-)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on January 12, 2019, 09:44:24 AM
I hope I get a chance to see you with this one!

Why the complicated twin outlet from the gas tank?  Why not just weld a 1/4" pipe thread bung, or coupler into the bottom of the tank and use a standard fuel tap?  Screen?  I usually end up cutting those off cause they are crushed or corroded.  If you're worried about silt or whatever, just let the coupling or bung pass thru the bottom of the tank so that any small amount of debris sinks to the bottom, unless the inside of the tank is rusty.  You can always put an inline filter between the tank and the carb.
Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 12, 2019, 10:49:35 AM
Hi Koncrete Kid,

Thanks for your interest and queries.

Twin float chambers = twin outlets  :-D

(https://i.imgur.com/fq9jNdJ.jpg)

The nut I'll weld for the tap will stick about 10mm higher than the bottom of the tank, still will fit a screen as well, I think the SCTA frowns on in line filters...

It's not a standard tap cause it'll have both a mechanical spring loaded lanyard from a twist grip and a magneto kill switch behind it.

Photos to follow soon, nearly finished it today...

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 12, 2019, 11:13:27 AM
More work on the tap...

Cleaned all the nuts on the lathe to give them a more vintage look:

(https://i.imgur.com/186z89N.jpg)

Made a plastic pulley to test the mechanical lanyard.

Driven by left hand side twit grip.

(https://i.imgur.com/XRqocF6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9nTn6vJ.jpg)

End of day, happy tests, I redo the pulley in aluminum:

(https://i.imgur.com/cUSIBSI.jpg)

1st spring a touch small, 2nd one a touch big... Will find a happy medium later!!!

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on January 12, 2019, 06:59:59 PM
Patrick, will you be running this bike on the salt?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 13, 2019, 03:53:01 AM
Yes Wobblywalrus,

The plan is entering Speed Week this August 2019...

1st proper run will be where the original racer did the 24 hour world record, the Montlhery oval concrete track near Paris in early May (built in 1924 and still standing!!!), big vintage meet there called the Vintage Revival...

(http://www.vintage-revival.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Nouveau-LOGO-vrm-2013.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodrome_de_Linas-Montlh%C3%A9ry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodrome_de_Linas-Montlh%C3%A9ry)

(https://media.sport-decouverte.com/images/circuit/maxi/circuit-de-montlhery.jpg)

See you there maybe?

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 13, 2019, 10:59:04 AM
Good evening,

 Tap finished after a few problems...  :-D

(https://i.imgur.com/fdCn81a.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/cFWWh6h.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 25, 2019, 01:07:05 PM
Hi...

Never sewed in me life, so a 1st...

Started the tank leather pad.

(https://i.imgur.com/myvBSXr.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9k2ffg7.jpg)

After a few trys, this is the outcome:

(https://i.imgur.com/kp0HX8A.jpg)

But I used all the strong thread I had, so waiting for some more so I can start on the 4 straps....

Found a Ferodo lining box:

(https://i.imgur.com/EMvB3o0.jpg)

Miracle: nearly the same diameter...

(https://i.imgur.com/TL5qtH4.jpg)

Glue...

(https://i.imgur.com/DUiUL60.jpg)

I'll rivet and trim them later once super dry......

(https://i.imgur.com/1IZb5yQ.jpg)

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ProjectROTM on January 27, 2019, 12:48:55 PM
Hi Patrick,

Where did you get the aluminium number boards from?

Cheers,

ROTM
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on January 28, 2019, 03:21:06 PM
Hi, Velocette Man,

From this GB ebay seller:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oval-Racing-Motorcycle-Number-Plate/392101615385?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oval-Racing-Motorcycle-Number-Plate/392101615385?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649)

There are others around...

Any news on the MAC?

Cheers from Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ProjectROTM on January 29, 2019, 01:21:21 PM
Hi Patrick,

Thanks for the link.

Slow progress on the MAC, but I am hoping to upload another video soon. I don’t want to hijack your thread, but if you are on Facebook I have created a page for more regular updates. @ProjectROTM

Cheers,

Christian
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 08, 2019, 10:30:10 AM
Hi,

Good day today, collected all my machined bits from B&E.

Keith, the workshop manager:

(https://i.imgur.com/PjX6Dny.jpg)

Levers for the petrol tank caps:

(https://i.imgur.com/LAbV59S.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bGTSgye.jpg)

My friend Frederic in France dis these special nuts for me:

(https://i.imgur.com/yDHqxaN.jpg)

Cylinder deck milled and square to crank:

(https://i.imgur.com/0Mq3hnA.jpg)

I did the manifold, B&E did the thread and castlenated nut:

(https://i.imgur.com/B0c4A5P.jpg)

Inlet track bored to 28mm, plus new M33 x 1.00 thread:

(https://i.imgur.com/JVupJVH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/OlzE3MY.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/F6mSvsn.jpg)

General view...

(https://i.imgur.com/jxCbEJU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xpCCTGv.jpg)

So long...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on February 08, 2019, 11:00:12 AM
Patrick, will the carb have any additional support?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Harold Bettes on February 08, 2019, 05:25:13 PM
Patrick, :-D

WW has brought up a good point about supporting the overhung load of the carb and float bowls. Thinking about the resonant frequencies of the one cylinder engine made me think of the one good thing the GP bowls help and that is surface area and volume available in a straight line acceleration mode. If you take a jar of water approximately equal to the diameter of the bowl and take a look at what happens as you introduce various frequencies to it you will see at some point(s) the surface of the water will begin to grow vertical columns that resemble stalactites and stalagmites. Any vibration isolation while supporting the weight/mass of the carb and bowls with fuel you can provide will help decrease those problems. Even a simple flexible coupling and a vertical support (also damped) will help. 8-)

As I recall, isn't the oil pump driven via a nylon looking gear? IF so, you should probably go to another material. :? Please forgive my questionable memory.

I thoroughly enjoy following your thread on the old flat motor and congratulate you on your dedication and workmanship. :cheers:

Regards,
HB2 :-)

 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 09, 2019, 03:54:18 AM
Hi,

It's in the plan to seek a support for the carb!!! But I will not cut the manifold to insert a flexible pipe damper!!!  There is actually an alloy sleeve at the end of the manifold that locates inside the carb spigot, might make a soft plastic one to replace the alloy one...

(https://i.imgur.com/B0c4A5P.jpg)

All the gears in the timing cover are treated steel, so no worries there...

B&E also did a few alloy weld in there.

One of the TJ 4 problems is the sliding 2nd gear in the crash gear box. Not only it slams into his brother everytime one changes gear, but it also is not helped by the wet clutch which makes it difficult to obtain a clean separation of the driving and driven plates. So I decided to use ATF in the gear box and primary spaces, a solution most used in 70's wet clutch Sportsters,

The engine oil in the Jonghi is circulated via windows and they have been welded shut.

(https://i.imgur.com/3xUQUfO.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/OVYCMiP.jpg)

B&E also repaired the broken clutch cable anchor:

(https://i.imgur.com/UmjESrX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LwCzTFC.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 09, 2019, 02:17:33 PM
Hi,

I wasn't too pleased with my 1st tank pad, see above......

So I made another one these last few days...

(https://i.imgur.com/MrkqUAo.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1MacLD6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Fo14TD4.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 11, 2019, 11:13:55 AM
Hi,

Other stuff done this weekend: mods to the oiling system.

There's a hole in the primary cavity that transfer lubricant back to the sump:

(https://i.imgur.com/9E6p6tL.jpg)

Blocked it with a screw.

I transfered that level to the primary cover for a new level plug::

(https://i.imgur.com/o7hL7ZP.jpg)

No breathers left for gearbox and clutch cavities after all the welding, so install a new fitting on top of the box for a breather pipe:

(https://i.imgur.com/mLskDMD.jpg)

Since the bottom of the box is much higher than the botton of the clutch, design of a transfer system between them, using centrifugal and gravity forces: little dam  with hole behind to collect ATF from clutch cavity and to transfer it to the box:

(https://i.imgur.com/IGwfVJh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lXIx60B.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1W2PeNc.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1Nu8BXG.jpg)

Also drilled big breather hole in between both cavities:

(https://i.imgur.com/SD5JNHg.jpg)

So the box will fill with ATF from the clutch, so new hole down to limit level in box and diminish ATF volume:

(https://i.imgur.com/33SF83w.jpg)

In the timing cover, there were just 2 little holes to drain it into the sump, same, increased hole size to speed up drainage.

(https://i.imgur.com/FKRDclA.jpg)

So long...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Duck-Stew on February 13, 2019, 09:08:43 AM
Absolutely enjoying this build.  I'm in the process of building a much more modern single cylinder but a lot of the thought processes are similar.

Wish you the best with this project.
--Stuart
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 15, 2019, 12:01:59 PM
Hi...

Thanks, Duck Stew...

Considering the race cams and the rpm, 6000, I thought I'd better find stronger valve springs!!!

These are internal Sportster ones, with their cups moded to suit.

With valve lift, it leaves 2mm before coil bind and before the lower cup hit the valve guide, so all good and a lot more pressure..

On the right the mod, on the left the std set up:

(https://i.imgur.com/RG14jYC.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ytZ2x1J.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 17, 2019, 05:11:12 PM
Hi,

Little details, balance pipe for the gas tank:

(https://i.imgur.com/JByWLnV.jpg)

One lucky charm is as good as another...

(https://i.imgur.com/Qui88B2.jpg)

Not my fav work, started the filler...

(https://i.imgur.com/rvaC7YE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/V525TDY.jpg)

While it's drying, my mind wanders... Since there's room in the sump for about 1.5 quarts of oil, I don't need the external oil tank... Leave it out would leave a big hole, so decided to convert it into a breather tank :grin:

I did buy a beautiful repro alloy cap for it, time to mod it mercilessly!!!.

(https://i.imgur.com/lOG2jsB.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Jo6qRtg.jpg)

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on February 17, 2019, 07:44:06 PM
Patrick, you may need to install screw clamps on your balance tube hose instead of wire to be SCTA legal.

I witnessed wire being rejected once.

  Don
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on February 18, 2019, 09:10:41 AM
A bony, chrome talisman - but nice tuck!  :-D :cheers:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 18, 2019, 10:32:58 AM
You're right, Don, I'll revisit!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on February 18, 2019, 09:50:55 PM
Patrick, I forgot to mention how much I enjoy this build, keep up the good work.   :cheers:

I remember Lars introducing us in 2011? at Speedweek.

  Don
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on February 19, 2019, 04:30:11 AM
Ah Lars, he did get a record... I'm still chasing one!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/vswiyEE.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Doc B. on February 19, 2019, 11:01:21 AM
Patrick, you may need to install screw clamps on your balance tube hose instead of wire to be SCTA legal.

I witnessed wire being rejected once.

  Don


Ditto AMA, and likely FIM, too. Also applies to fire sleeving. You can probably guess how I know.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ProjectROTM on March 05, 2019, 06:53:22 AM
Hi Patrick,

I was digging though some old photos and stumbled across this which reminded me of your project. Unfortunately, my restaurant level French isn't quite up to reading the blurb though.

(https://i.ibb.co/YLTgLbL/IMG-1171.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/F3RTkQr/IMG-1172.jpg)

Cheers,

Christian
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 06, 2019, 11:21:56 AM
Hi Christian,

Yes, small world!!!

350 twin cam Jonghi from the Nougier stable of racers looked after by Claude Caucal, the very man who parted with the Jonghi TT 2 race parts that I am using for my reconstruction...

I will see him and the stable in early May at the Montlhery concrete Speed Bowl...

The DOHC tower from my own photo collection:

(http://moto-jonghi.chez-alice.fr/moto350course/nougier-g-7.jpg)

And a period shot at or near Montlhery:

(http://moto-jonghi.chez-alice.fr/moto350course/350c-photo-record-1936-g-1.jpg)

See you around,

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 20, 2019, 01:08:54 PM
Hi,

Not too many news recently...

Received my last lot of non standard ball bearings, 25 x 52 x 12, they are for the external flywheel bearing

(https://i.imgur.com/2s4Abjt.jpg)

A lot of 30 Amal new jets for a small price, plus the special key elsewhere:

(https://i.imgur.com/YElSd9k.jpg)

Made a little holder for them.

(https://i.imgur.com/tXBuZdF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/V7rKlvc.jpg)

Very nice day for this 1st day of Spring, I hope my friend in Wales has managed to paint the tanks and a few other pieces,,,

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 23, 2019, 08:21:51 AM
Hi,

Paint all done and drying, will probably pick it up tomorrow, thanks Jimmy in North Wales!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/qomtxzy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xYV5Sdk.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Ua3gTSa.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on March 31, 2019, 01:10:13 PM
Hi...

When all is running way too smoothly, it's time to start worrying  :-D
 
The clear coat was supposed to be cellulose based, but it refused to dry...

So, scrapped it all, back to square one...

While waiting, about 2 weeks, I started to reassemble the engine.

Race cam timing recorded.

Also fitted the street covers to record street timing as well...

(https://i.imgur.com/SxEzDOQ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Kg18Zdz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mMXq0RX.jpg)

Race graph:

(https://i.imgur.com/nsEcbOS.jpg)

Street graph:

(https://i.imgur.com/qaPpEhq.jpg)

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 06, 2019, 04:57:30 AM
Hi,

Time to hurry up a touch, May will soon be here!!!

Another few hours spent making a tool to insert the clutch bell ball bearing...

(https://i.imgur.com/5GOUdKe.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xxa8JIm.jpg)

Clutch in there:

(https://i.imgur.com/9t6O4aS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ztoBZBj.jpg)

Primary transmission:

(https://i.imgur.com/pYc4n1J.jpg)

Gearbox:

(https://i.imgur.com/LXs9Dnb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TP1UiuQ.jpg)

See you later, I'll put the bottom end in the frame before any other engine assembly...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: fordboy628 on April 06, 2019, 06:06:38 AM
Patrick,

Very "spiffy".    Nice special tools.    Lots of attention to details, like profiling the cams.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 06, 2019, 12:07:38 PM
Patrick,
I too like to profile my cams.  It looks like you measured lift in thousandths of an inch, but posted the graph "Y" axis in mm, but I can't make sense of the "X" axis.  I like to graph my lift versus degrees to be able to see where the overlap occurs relative to TDC.  I tend to run my cam (single cam) retarded to move the hp curve higher on the rpm scale because my motors will hold up at 7500 rpm (90mm stroke B50) and seem to keep increasing hp up to 7200 rpm.
Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 06, 2019, 12:28:21 PM
Hi, Koncrete Kid,

Data was put in Excel file... 1st two rows for titles so it really starts at row 3, so data rows 3 to xxx

1st column A was degrees, B exhaust and C inlet

For some reason, it's open web excel..., I can't get the horizontal axis to read the 1st column A, it only wants to read the row number...

This is the timing for both race and street cams:

Race cams:
Lift: .334
came TT 2, exhaust:
opens 77 deg. before BDC
closes 38 deg. after TDC
Duration 295 deg.

came TT 6, inlet:
opens 46 deg. before TDC
closes 60 deg. after BDC
Duration 286 deg.

Overlap 38 + 46 = 84 deg.

Street cams:
Lift .321
came 114, exhaust:
opens 63 deg. before BDC
closes 22 deg. after TDC
Duration 265 deg.

came 114, inlet:
opens 20 deg. before TDC
closes 47 deg. after BDC
Duration 247 deg.

Overlap 20 + 22 = 42 deg.

Measured with following valve lash: 4 thou inlet,  6 thou exhaust.

Running clearances will be more like 6 and 10 thou.

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 06, 2019, 06:45:04 PM
I had similar problems using MS excel, but somehow got the x axis to post in degrees.  I'll try to post one here.  The Megacycle X4 cam that I use is 33 - 69 inlet and 69-33 exhaust, but measured at .040".  So when I degree my cams at every 10º as you have done, I always make sure to get a degree reading at .040" opening and closing in order to compare with other cams.

The following example is a comparison of a Megacycle X4 cam with a Sifton HT.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 07, 2019, 03:50:29 AM
Hi Koncrete Kid, thanks for sharing your cam data.

I sort of agree with you about the 40 thou reading to compare with other cams, but...

Since for a given lift most cams have roughly the same rising ramp above the 40 thou lift, the interesting bit of each cam design is how much time/degrees it spend either getting to 40 thou or closing from 40 thou.

The Sifton on your graph shows much less time/degrees spent there.

So on paper, it might look like a softer cam than the other just looking at the degrees while in fact it's a fiercer and faster accelerating cam off the follower... which should be harder on the components as well...

On another forum, someone posted a compare graph of an alloy XR cam versus a KR cam... Well, the XR did use 50 degrees more on each side to get where the KR cam was at 40 thou lift.

Obviously, it allows faster revs than on the KR with softer openings/closing, but in me eyes, it's 100 degrees lost that cannot be recovered!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: fordboy628 on April 07, 2019, 07:13:12 AM
Patrick, Tom,

JMHO, but I analyse a lot of valve train motion.   Depending on what you want to do, you might want to add more data to your testing regimen.   Obviously, accuracy of measurement, has a HUGE impact on the results, especially the derivatives.

Even if all you care about in your cam analysis is displacement, 10 degree interval increments at the crank is too "coarse" IMO.   As Patrick stated, the measurement interval is so great that "unintended smoothing" of the data occurs, giving a false impression of the actual motion.   And if you intend to make any assessment of derivatives, (velocity, acceleration and jerk), coarse data accumulation by hand will not give you anything but error filled data.    To make "good" data driven decisions, well, the data has to be "good" to start with.   :wink:

Things you can easily do, that will be helpful and give you better data:

1/   The best situation would be to have your cams "profiled" on a dedicated fixture such as a Cam Doctor, Cam Professional or Cam Analyst.   This can be inconvenient and expensive, but gets you the best data available at the "non-manufacturer" level.

      If you still want to accumulate data by hand, you can improve your accuracy by:

A/   Decrease the measurement "interval".    Every 5 crank degrees or better yet, 4 crank degrees is better than every 10 degrees.
2/   Increase the diameter of the degree wheel.    This lengthens the arc segment per degree, thereby adding accuracy.     A 16" diameter degree wheel is twice as accurate as an 8" wheel . . . . .
d/   Use an electronic indicator that reads in .0005" increments.      .0002" or .0001" is better still.    One with enough travel could be pricey.

These changes would give you "useable" data for velocity, probably for acceleration, probably not for jerk.



I no longer try to graph or analyse cam data in Excel.    It is just too difficult to finesse the software to do what I want, as you both mentioned.    I use cam specific software which is excellent and expensive, BUT, you can use a freeware program called  DatPlot by Michael Vogt.   It allows a second y axis, labeling freedom, and other controls that are tedious in Excel.    Here is a link to some sample graphs.

https://vintageracing.online/threads/racing-engines-a-technical-examination.1092/post-11154

Data entry in DatPlot can be more time consuming, there is no manual, etc.    But, WTH, FREE!

Also, you want to take a hard look at things like lash ramps, transitional velocities, and seating velocity.    These items can all vary based on the ACTUAL lash.

Most cams have the same "rising ramp" because for a given tappet diameter there is a maximum velocity per degree that can be used before the cam runs off the edge of the tappet.

Sent you both a PM

 :cheers:  :dhorse:  :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 07, 2019, 08:35:37 AM
Thanks for your advice, Fordboy,

I do not have the money to develop new cams for this 1933 engine, so basically I am stuck with what I have in hand, ie race cams with some wear, flat shoe type tappets with some wear and drive gears with more lash than I expected!!!

I can't do much with the cams or the gears...

I did smooth a touch with a stone the worst of the flat shoes wear, but these are all hardened by carburizing, about 20 thou deep, so I can't dig too much in!!!

The recording of the timing was mostly to quench my curiosity and compare the race cam with the street cam since I have both variants of this bike.

My degree wheel is 9"1/2 (not too shabby then!) but any bigger wheel means I'll have to fit the pointer on the head!!!

See you around,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 07, 2019, 09:14:33 AM
Hi,

Engine finished today!!!!!!!!!!!

PO had put a 1943 one franc coin on the primary check plug opening, I left it...

(https://i.imgur.com/LRcZGdu.jpg)

Cam timing:

(https://i.imgur.com/QIYIZCA.jpg)

Engine in frame plus some safety wiring...

(https://i.imgur.com/BXn5K1L.jpg)

Piston:

(https://i.imgur.com/6wgE36L.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/yCZylvv.jpg)

No head gasket, high temp paint in place:

(https://i.imgur.com/MeJVRme.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/pv7ajcw.jpg)

Compressing the magneto felt gasket!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/6tHTzEl.jpg)

Spark timing, 36 degrees before TDC:

(https://i.imgur.com/duU5SVJ.jpg)

Finished product...

(https://i.imgur.com/lfX7S1Q.jpg)

So long,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 07, 2019, 12:27:40 PM
 :-D

Exhaust pipe and kicker...

(https://i.imgur.com/Z1jypKV.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 07, 2019, 03:35:05 PM
If possible, I would try to get a machine shop to broach several extra keyways in your crank pinion (assuming you have a keyed pinion) so that you could try retarding the valve timing, unless that would upset your ignition timing.  Of course, you won't really know if it would help without some dyno time, but it has worked for me.
Tom

P.S. And yes, Fordboy, having more accurate data could lead to more knowledge, but do I really know what to do with that knowledge?  I'm quite happy to know what the terms mean, how they affect the performance of my motor, and allow me to make some minor changes to go faster!
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 08, 2019, 12:58:29 PM
Hi,

Just poped at the painter to check progress or lack of it... Well, it was all done!

So, well filled afternoon!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/6TzEZnp.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/4ddyMoH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/SYtf8JA.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Sc8DQK4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AEAnCZo.jpg)

 :-D Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on April 08, 2019, 01:33:30 PM
She's Gorgeous! 
Well done Patrick.   :cheers:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Peter Jack on April 08, 2019, 04:15:12 PM
Good job Patrick!!!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Doc B. on April 09, 2019, 10:24:34 AM
Beautiful! Thanks so much for sharing the build.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: sabat on April 09, 2019, 10:36:06 AM
Beautiful job!    :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Harold Bettes on April 09, 2019, 02:56:45 PM
Patrick,

You've done well. Hope it runs as well as a package as you have done your part.

Regards,
HB2 :-)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 10, 2019, 10:47:13 AM
Beautiful job, Patrick,

Are you sure you want to put that on the Salt? 

Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 10, 2019, 03:23:02 PM
Yes,Tom,

I'm an Enfant Terrible...

 :-D

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 10, 2019, 09:32:57 PM
Passez du sel, s'il vous plais! (pardon my poor French)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: fordboy628 on April 11, 2019, 06:10:50 AM
Awesome rebuild Patrick!!

Thank you for taking the time and sharing your efforts.

Best of luck on the Salt, hope to see you there.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 16, 2019, 01:13:14 PM
Hi,

Bike all finished now, all cables and pipes in place.

Plus front brake for the May meeting in France...

I fill it up this weekend and try to start it...

(https://i.imgur.com/vQaT0mO.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/E4ZPavL.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mHkVEB2.jpg)

Thanks for the following and support from all here!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on April 17, 2019, 09:14:19 AM
Eagerly awaiting thumping sound!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 19, 2019, 08:42:51 AM
I see you have a chest rest, but I would want it further forward and I would add a chin rest for your helmet.
Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Stainless1 on April 19, 2019, 09:57:06 AM
Tom, I would argue against having your helmet touching any part of the bike, even on a pad.... your eyes don't need the vibration
 :cheers:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on April 19, 2019, 11:05:47 AM
X2!!
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 19, 2019, 06:18:57 PM
Hi,

I made the pad so to look like the original pad, but I won't probably use it at Speed Week!!!

Also hit small problem... Was about to fit the last screw on the bike, the pressure regulating one (ball/spring/screw), and guess what, it's the only thread I did not check, and yes, it's slightly chewed up...

So ordered the tap, VERY COMMON, 7/16th by 26 TPI, NOT UNF, NOT Whitworth, Cycle???, might get it via the postman tomorrow!!!

Wish me luck!

So instead, worked on my 78 iron head XLH Sportster, it was feeling a touch lonely lately..........

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 19, 2019, 08:31:50 PM
Tom, I would argue against having your helmet touching any part of the bike, even on a pad.... your eyes don't need the vibration
 :cheers:
X2!!
You make that tank pad as thick and soft as possible.  If I did not have them (on three record holding bikes), I would not be able to hold my head up. Like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvFDW5ck/B50-APS-PG-First-version.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LqHhL1W3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8wLspLt/B50-500-open-bike.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: TrickyDicky on April 20, 2019, 05:38:26 AM
Tom, I would argue against having your helmet touching any part of the bike, even on a pad.... your eyes don't need the vibration
 :cheers:
X2!!
You make that tank pad as thick and soft as possible.  If I did not have them (on three record holding bikes), I would not be able to hold my head up. Like this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8wLspLt/B50-500-open-bike.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I'm no biker, so this may be a naive question: how do you see where you are going in the bottom picture?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 20, 2019, 01:44:13 PM
I look thru the front window! This is the same bike as the fully faired version above on which I do the same thing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvZLcsHv/window-thru-headstock.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pm7LRw0N)
Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: TrickyDicky on April 20, 2019, 02:32:59 PM
From the side view it looks like the top of the helmet prevents you seeing forwards over the tank. Depends where your eyes are I suppose. Don't tell me, they are on the front of your head (just below the eyebrows) like everyone else.  8-)  :roll:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 20, 2019, 05:34:11 PM
The other advantage of the tank pad, with your helmet strapped on tightly (which is the only safe way), is that the pad forces your helmet up just enough to allow maximum forward vision thru the upper extremity of the eye port in the helmet. I believe that Shoei is now making a helmet for racing with a higher eye port just for this reason.

Sorry, Patrick, for the hijacking of your thread.

Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 20, 2019, 10:02:53 PM
That is a Shoed X-14.  You can buy internal pads of different thicknesses.  Thick front pads and thin back ones make the helmet sit higher in the front and this improves the view.  The X-14 alone had better aero in the wind tunnel than the X-14 with a speed hump on the leathers.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 21, 2019, 04:16:20 AM
No worries, Tom...  :-D

I've done the same time and time again...

Do you have as well a steering tube goin' through that window? or are top and bottom trees just held top and bottom w/o a tube in between?

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 21, 2019, 09:21:49 AM
Patrick,
I have a 3/8" S.S. threaded rod which has been turned down to the root diameter, around 5/16", which applies the required preload on the tapered roller bearings.  It does not impair my vision.  The only problem is loss of peripheral vision between the sideline flags which I believe are 1/4 mile apart.  With a bit of side wind, this can unknowingly move the bike across the course.  The event I now attend (World of Speed) has a centerline painted on the course which keeps me aligned.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8mwMptb/front-view-of-window-thru-headstock.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 21, 2019, 03:17:24 PM
Now you see me   :-D now you don't!!!

Great!!!...

By the way, the guy who redid my paint has a Metisse framed B50 that he races in classic moto cross events...

Nice bike...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 22, 2019, 10:02:08 AM
Patrick, type "nowhere faster sprint motorcycle" into google and look at the images.  That bike is in the UK.  Another example of a very low frame.   
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 25, 2019, 04:24:24 PM
Hi All,

Easter weekend spent kicking the bike to death, even breaking the center stand!!! To no avail, not even the smallest fart...

Verified everything, had the carb and magneto in a 1000 bits...

So tonight, a friend, Alan, came to help me for a pushing cession...

I live at the bottom of a hill, in town... So we headed up for a bit, then turned into the cemetary that has an even more pronounced gradient.

OK, 1st push, a few farts but nowt conclusive... So we go up again...

2nd push, the bike starts well in less than 5 meters, but it sounds fluffy and too rich. I open the auxiliary air fully and she picks up nicely now, clear and deep raging sound... and the flywheel takes off!!! Sheared key...

I'll chase a few bits tomorrow and will reassemble as fast as I can!

A few shots taken by my friend Alan:..

(https://i.imgur.com/gbgyGmU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tNZX2TZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/b9q3aIZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3UPedmb.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/rlR7q45.jpg)

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 25, 2019, 09:44:41 PM
Sorry to hear that, Patrick, although probably better there than at the Salt Flats.
Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: comet on April 26, 2019, 03:13:54 AM
That sucks. Sorry to read that Patrick. Good luck sourcing the replacement parts mate.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 26, 2019, 03:39:26 AM
Thanks for your concerns!!!

Happily, all the Jonghi engineering drawings (over 900 of them at the last count...) are on the web thanks to two friends of mine...

dgr 2112:

(http://moto-jonghi.chez-alice.fr/plan-350/2112.jpg)

I'm off in a minute either finding one or materials to make one,

Plus serious fine grinding in with lapping end passes with toothpaste if I can't find a bit of sulphur...

Plus loctite press and moding a touch the flywheel nut and its cover, they are slightly too thick for the space available and maybe the initial cause for the shearing...

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Interested Observer on April 26, 2019, 08:37:19 AM
Patrick,
From the photos it appears that the flywheel is fitted to a tapered shaft.  If so, you may want to take a close look at that fit, since that is probably the primary connection means between the two.  Relying on the key alone may not carry the day.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Koncretekid on April 26, 2019, 09:04:41 AM
Patrick,
From the photos it appears that the flywheel is fitted to a tapered shaft.  If so, you may want to take a close look at that fit, since that is probably the primary connection means between the two.  Relying on the key alone may not carry the day.


x2. On the BSA main shaft, a lot of lapping is required, especially after the hub has sheared a key.  Then the nut must be well torqued with at least medium thread locker, maybe the stronger thread locker would be good insurance.  I imagine that flywheel is a bugger to keep tight, especially during engine braking.

Tom
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 26, 2019, 10:46:40 AM
 :-D All ready to assemble again, photos to follow later...

Yes, key is just there for location, not to hold the assembly...

Both flywheel and shaft were lapped together for a long time, but what happened is the flywheel nut was tight between flywheel and its cover...

All were assembled with loctite but when the flywheel started to shear the key, the movement unlocked the nut and it all flew away.

Could also be that too tall a key will prevent tapers to mate properly, I'll never know since it's now in 2 pieces!!!

Sorted now, 1mm play between nut and cover, new key made, more lapping...

Thanks for the pointers,

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: saltwheels262 on April 26, 2019, 12:10:17 PM
Your build looks great ,have been following it.

Couple of questions----
 
No safety wire on that nut that came off motor shaft?

Where did flywheel end up when it separated from engine?
No ballistic type cover on flywheel?
What happens if flywheel fails and separates into numerous bits?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 26, 2019, 02:14:28 PM
Quote
Saltwheels262: Couple of questions----
No safety wire on that nut that came off motor shaft?
Where did flywheel end up when it separated from engine?
No ballistic type cover on flywheel?
What happens if flywheel fails and separates into numerous bits?

That's actually four but I'll let you off!!!

- Trying to find a way to fit hefty safety wire or split pin in that tiny space between flywheel and nut cover...
But if flywheel can break a key in half, what are my chances with safety wire or split pin  :? At point of contact, key is 5mm wide x 19mm long = 95mm2...
- Engine runs "backwards", CW from flywheel side, so it passed my legs et went uphill on the road... Big enough, easy to find!!!
- No cover on the flywheel...
- Me thinks it would have to rev way way way past what this engine can do (say 6000rpm) before exploding...
There are 3 ball bearings on the narrow crankshaft (IE this is NOT a nitro fed British twin with nearly a foot between the mains and a gigantic weight bobbing for its freedom in the middle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've seen these explode, nasty... Everything was broken or bent including the frame...)

Thanks for your interest...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 26, 2019, 02:42:51 PM
Hi,

Found slightly bigger keys at the ball bearing dealer, plus some BlockPress...

(https://i.imgur.com/GuICfDl.jpg)

A small 1/2 hour to slim one to the required dimms:

(https://i.imgur.com/a7ZRo6X.jpg)

Paste lapping:

(https://i.imgur.com/mkqTwlv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/f8CSa6I.jpg)

Then tooth paste lapping:

(https://i.imgur.com/EYtsMFb.jpg)

Lathe small trim for a good contact with the nut...

(https://i.imgur.com/PTcqqAG.jpg)

I reassemble it all tomorrow......

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: rgdavid on April 26, 2019, 04:41:34 PM
After lapping put a small chamfer behind the flywheel hole, just in case there is a tiny ridge on the shaft from lapping,
Is the flywheel balanced ?
Is there any wayto hold the flywheel back when tightening so it doesnt stress the key ?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: fordboy628 on April 27, 2019, 05:49:32 AM
YES!   It is the tapered fit which "holds", the key is just for initial alignment.

If ANYTHING prevents the taper from "fully seating" (key fit, inside edge hub interference, etc)  GAME OVER!

Just like a BMC Mini tailshaft, fitted length, precision lapping and proper torque are essential for success.

 :cheers:
M
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ggl205 on April 27, 2019, 06:35:48 AM
Patrick, that flywheel nut is looking pretty gnarley. Any chance of getting a new one? Not sure what SCTA will think of an unshielded flywheel but you may want to check if you have not already done so.

An additional thought; now that you have renewed the flywheel nut mating surface, is there room for an AN style flat washer between nut and flywheel? This may assist in securing a reliable torque value.

John
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on April 28, 2019, 05:01:40 AM
Hi,

Thanks for the headers...

All the lapping work above was done with the tranny cover off to better access the tapers...

When I came to re-assemble it all yesterday, I discovered AT LAST the reason for the key breakage and the following flywheel taking liberties...

There'a a ball bearing in the cover that sits between flywheel and transmission gear.

The end of the female taper was ever so slightly touching that bearing inner ring and that prevented full blooded contact of the 2 tapers...

Flywheel was soon back in the lathe to slim that end a touch and it's all back to normal now. I lockpress-ed the assembly yesterday and torqued the nut to about 100lbs/ft, I daren't go higher.

Will dismantle it again today to see how tight the tapers are together when I apply the flywheel extractor...

If conclusive, after that, just tank and a few pipes to fit AGAIN and it's ready to fire again...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Peter Jack on April 28, 2019, 09:26:16 AM
It will fire a lot easier with the flywheel tight on the shaft. The key probably broke with your first kick!

Good luck. What a nice build.

Pete
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on April 28, 2019, 11:02:17 PM
It would be a good idea to check the suctioning body rules and get an opinion from the technical inspectors.  Sometimes with problem flywheels I will heat them in an oven before pressing them on.  They cool and contract around the shaft taper.  One problem is they can be a bugger to remove and sometimes they need to be reheated with a torch so they will come off.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Bookfla on April 29, 2019, 02:39:08 PM
The diameter of the flywheel bore area does not leave much parent metal above the keyway.  When I first saw this my mind went to the hundreds of damaged Harley Davidson clutch baskets that were designed with the keyway cut too close to the outside diameter. Put a little too much torque on it and the keyway will crack. Not sure if you have room but we used to put a "ring" around the outside diameter to give it more support. The flywheel looks very touchy.

Regards

Tom 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 08, 2019, 01:33:56 PM
Hi,

Some unforeseen delay due to a quick trip in France last week...

Back on Monday, finished the bike... Alan came this afternoon to help me start it.

Two starts without problems, flywheel well and truly attached!!!  :-D

So loaded it all in a rental van, I'm off to France again, direction Montlhery for the Vintage Revival meeting this weekend...

(https://i.imgur.com/6nUOQv2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/05RloAX.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mPVpTTu.jpg)

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Peter Jack on May 08, 2019, 03:42:36 PM
Hi,

Some unforeseen delay due to a quick trip in France last week...

Back on Monday, finished the bike... Alan came this afternoon to help me start it.

Two starts without problems, flywheel well and truly attached!!!  :-D

So loaded it all in a rental van, I'm off to France again, direction Montlhery for the Vintage Revival meeting this weekend...

So long, Patrick

Good luck and have fun Patrick.  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: wobblywalrus on May 08, 2019, 10:15:30 PM
That is great, Patrick.  Will you be riding it on the speed bowl?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: comet on May 09, 2019, 01:55:36 AM
Good luck Patrick. Enjoy it.
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 09, 2019, 02:03:08 AM
Thanks, lads!!!

Yes, I should be on the bowl if the bike behaves!!!

Show is only Sat and Sund, but I'll be helping a friend on Friday with the Terrot Competition display, it will be the biggest ever gathering of OEM racing TerroT motorcycles , about 50 anticipated... Will be busy with the camera, that's for sure!!!

Here's one of them, not quite finished, but with a full blooded history, a consistant winner of all sorts of events between 1935 and 1960, including the 24 hour Bol d'Or race and the 1950 French 350cc Championchip, ex Leroy and Belkechout, a semi-works machine...

(https://i.imgur.com/i9gGJ74.jpg)

Talk to you soon in a few days!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Old Scrambler on May 09, 2019, 11:29:43 AM
We get to know of the numerous French motorcycles.............good to know about the survivors :-) :-) :-)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 17, 2019, 09:17:51 AM
Montlhery...

The bike starts now on the kicker 1st time all the time, BUT, broke again the centre stand and the magneto is weak in the revs, so did nor ride it on the track at all... But worked all Saturday to sort out the jetting, so no wasted time.

My friend Claude Caucal who gave the TT 2 race parts to build my reconstruction was there with 12 Terrot or Magnat-Debon ( a trade name for TerroT) race bikes and he lent me the unique Jean Nougier made 1937 DOHC 500 Magnat Debon officially raced by Jacques Onda in them days...

What an honour!!!

En pre-grille, waiting for the previous session to finish, warming up the engines, Claude on right, meself on left:

(https://i.imgur.com/JGZf8KA.jpg)

On the track, ready to pounce on the oval:

(https://i.imgur.com/TBAmp1g.jpg)

What a weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!  :-D

Started retuning and repairs in anger, more news soon!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 17, 2019, 09:46:09 AM
How cool is that -- someone letting you ride a precious bike for your fun.  Great stuff!!
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 18, 2019, 10:44:38 AM
Repairs...

I bought some Dowty Seals to replace the red fibre washers...

(https://i.imgur.com/8ND8X1O.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xGgITpO.jpg)

All the carb parts, beautiful bronze stuff!!!...

(https://i.imgur.com/Ht12fbm.jpg).

In 2006, I found a local guy to help me adapt a tractor Wico magneto on my KHK... Not seen him since, no name, no address, no telephone...

Found him again yesterday after trawling his street... He's now 80 and retired but has kept all his gear... So I visited him today with the Bosch magneto

Gauss counter that measure magnetisation amplitude... nearly zero on my magneto...:

(https://i.imgur.com/EJMnV4U.jpg)

The machine made by his dad to remagnetize magnets::

(https://i.imgur.com/TARVni0.jpg)

The Gauss counter is now off the scale, good and the spark is blue with a nice crackle...

(https://i.imgur.com/iRDukp4.jpg)

The old man has a lot of equipment, including a bobbin's rewinder and a growler for dynamos:

(https://i.imgur.com/ATilqG6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/26ilDw3.jpg)

He did not charge me a penny for wasting 1/2 hour of his life on a young'un, good on him!

So long, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ggl205 on May 18, 2019, 01:19:19 PM
Patrick:

Stay close to this old gent. All that equipment and knowledge that goes with it, needs to be passed down before he goes to greener pastures. You vintage MC guys will need this stuff sooner or later. I sure love the bikes you guys play with.

John
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 18, 2019, 03:41:30 PM
Yes, I did pop the question...

The old man says he still does a bit for friends, bikes and farm stationary engines...

He says he won't sell and will leave it to his family to sell on once he's gone...

I told him I will leave my coordinates with him for them to find in good time and anyway, not wishing him gone any time soon...

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: ggl205 on May 18, 2019, 05:24:08 PM
Too bad he won't teach you what he knows. When he is gone, so goes what he knows.

John
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on May 19, 2019, 12:38:06 PM
It's a runner again!!!  :-D

https://youtu.be/XCG7C4iFCnU (https://youtu.be/XCG7C4iFCnU)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 15, 2019, 04:00:48 AM
Hi all,

Well, nearly time to pack the bike in its crate...

After a bit of to and fro with the SCTA tech guys, we decided it needed a cover for the flywheel...

It's too late to change the name of my entry, otherwise, it would have been The Frying Pan Spl...

(https://i.imgur.com/UKSyfmv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/7Y4jk3h.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JvrbAPn.jpg)

See you all soon on the Salt Flats!!!

Patrick

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: manta22 on June 15, 2019, 10:49:29 AM
So now you're running a "pan head"?  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Stainless1 on June 16, 2019, 09:40:14 AM
The Teflon should make it easier to clean  :roll:  :cheers:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Peter Jack on June 16, 2019, 11:15:00 AM
And if the flywheel does come loose it won't stick to the cover!  :-D :-D :-D

Pete
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on June 16, 2019, 11:24:49 AM
The rule book mentions clutches and primary drives warranting protection, fair enough, but nowhere are mentioned external flywheels...

I've yet to witness a guy who's got his feet entangled in one...

As in any case, the guard would have to be 1" thick cast iron to contain it and protect me from it flying past at 6000 rpm if it ever decides to see the larger world for itself...

So, any more sticks you throw at me, and the ones I will certainly receive on the Salt Flats will be redirected straight away to the tech team  :-D

Patrick  :-D
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Harold Bettes on June 16, 2019, 08:56:48 PM
Patrick,
Just be sure you call the frying pan a safety device lest the tech guys might want to call it "streamlining" LOL Regardless it is a novel and attractive solution! :roll:
Best of Luck and Speed, :cheers:
Regards,
HB2 :-)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on July 06, 2019, 04:10:13 AM
That's it, bike will be packed next week, I'm borrowing my nephew's little van to carry the Jonghi 10 miles to work where the crate awaits impatiently...

I thought this bloody pan needed lightening up...

(https://i.imgur.com/5JvUtPE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/4oEAJWB.jpg)

A few friends are forwarding spare parts (gear box, magneto rotor/points...), I'll stick a few "thank you" labels on the tank like I did on the KHK all these years ago...

(https://i.imgur.com/u56OEBf.jpg)

See you very soon, my friends!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on July 06, 2019, 06:32:23 AM
In Memory of old friends no longer with us...

(https://i.imgur.com/ejofabU.jpg)

Thanks for helping!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/AsLKUyb.jpg)

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on July 10, 2019, 10:48:38 AM
 Point of no return :lol:

At work with a few collegues...

(https://i.imgur.com/kbfb0JH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vM9dfiG.jpg)

I had a small bet with a friend,,, He said more than 135kg, I said less than 125kg... I win!!!

(https://i.imgur.com/CRVa1P7.jpg)

Packing tight...

(https://i.imgur.com/2gWzN9X.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RLJWZsY.jpg)

So long,, Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on July 10, 2019, 12:45:32 PM
Patrick, there may be an issue with your number plate placement. (7.E.1.e)

The rule book I'm looking at is a 2017, was there a change?

  Don
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: RaceEngineer on July 10, 2019, 03:08:18 PM
Sir,

I believe the requirement that the number plate be forward of the rear axle center line has been relaxed since 2017.  I believe this change was made in late 2018 or early in 2019.  I read the rule changes on the SCTA home page about a month age,  but can not find them now.  I found it challenging to mount the number plate forward of the axle on my 125 cc vintage bike, so was glad to see this rule change.

Regards,
Don

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on July 10, 2019, 05:54:03 PM
Yes, rule 7.E.5 ""ahead and above rear axle centerline""

Still as is in the 2019 rule book...

Centerline is a bit vague, horizontal? vertical? Mine's above the horizontal CL and ahead would mean in front of the bike???!!!

When I raced my Harley in 2011 and 2013, the numbers were on the seat rear hump, well rearward of CT!!!!!!... Nope was said about it...

(https://i.imgur.com/u56OEBf.jpg)

I'm sending a mail now to the tech guys... (by the way, they already seen photos of the bike and they did not comment on that point...)

Thanks for pointing out potential pit falls!!!!! Well apreciated!!!!!

Patrick
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 10, 2019, 05:56:40 PM
I don't see any issues.  I believe the spirit of the rule is to prevent number plates from being used as aero devices.  Your numbers are on the tail section which is there anyway.

I don't see a foul. 8-)
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on July 10, 2019, 08:52:14 PM
I don't see any issues.  I believe the spirit of the rule is to prevent number plates from being used as aero devices.  Your numbers are on the tail section which is there anyway.

I don't see a foul. 8-)

Wrong bike Jon, go back a page.

  Don
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Bookfla on July 11, 2019, 10:35:19 AM
With the number plate having a radius instead of being flat why wouldn't it be considered as an aero improvement?
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 11, 2019, 10:45:23 AM
Thanks, Don  I was kinda sleepy/lazy and didn't check.  Now that I have - indeed, a note to M/C Tech was the right thing to do.

It usually is wise to check with them on most any questionable question. 
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: salt27 on July 11, 2019, 11:32:51 AM
With the number plate having a radius instead of being flat why wouldn't it be considered as an aero improvement?

7.B.1 addresses size and shape of the number plate.

It looks ok to me but I'm not an inspector.

Also, the only reason I brought anything up is so there aren't any hang ups during inspection.

Let us know the out come Patrick, this could affect a few of us.

Thanks, Don

Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 11, 2019, 11:48:55 AM
Hey Sparky!  Would you care to discuss the difficulties of getting a number plate that'll keep the inspectors happy?

I seem to remember when you and Russ (?) were pitted next to us ten or fifteen years ago and you were dealing with the number plate/aero device hassle. :lol:
Title: Re: New Vintage Project, 250cc M-VG, Reconstruction of a 1933 French Jonghi 350
Post by: thefrenchowl on July 11, 2019, 11:53:54 AM
Haven't written yet, will do today!!!

Instead, two packets were waiting for me when I came back from work today...

One from Frederic with a spare Bosch FF1A inductor and points:

(https://i.imgur.com/9cW0qCq.jpg)

And one from Lionel with the newly re-manufactured gearbox of his own Jonghi TJ 4:

(https://i.imgur.com/fUC91YO.jpg)

A few spare parts and I do hope I won't have to use them in anger!!!

Thanks for your help and trust,

I'll pop at work tomorrow (it's my day off...) to put them on the crate and close it ready for collection...

So long, Patrick