Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Jruff5585 on November 02, 2017, 06:02:49 PM
-
Well I think the tittle says it all. I've been collecting parts, I have most of the major items, I have nothing but time and I have or will have pleanty of questions. Well I almost have nothing but time, I have two customers bikes in the shop, one will finish up and out the door Friday, the other one the owner comes in on Tuesdays and I lay him out and guide him through the build, pat him on the back then redo what he's done lol. And no it's not a joke. I'm not taking on any new work until the bikes built, I'll figure out how to post pics but not much to take pics of yet, so I'll start with some basics stuff. I have a new gen 2 Hayabusa engine, forks, subframe, swingarm and a gen1 frame I have access to bodywork I may choose to modify, or maybe buy new. I'm going to build my tank, air box and exhaust. I still need rims and tires (have a set of brand new CBR1000rr rims and a rear X14 rim) and I have quite a bit of parts around the shop. The first item I need to decide on is to run shocks or hardtail, I see a lot of pics of hardtails on the salt so if any can help with the pros and cons that would be a big help as I'm finding out traction is going to be a main concern. Also can anyone suggest exhaust software that you may have used? Also any hints, tips or tricks I'm heading into uncharted territory. Thanks
-
Don't try to re-invent the wheel, bike manufacturers etc spend tons of money and time designing airboxes and exhaust, use what works already, bodywork is good one, look at the fast bikes-- Forstall/Guppy, Bill Warner, Joe Amo,Ralph Hudson,Al Lamb. Off the shelf is questionable. We run suspension on all the bikes because,like this year, it can be pretty bumpy. Where ya at?
-
Don't try to re-invent the wheel, bike manufacturers etc spend tons of money and time designing airboxes and exhaust, use what works already, bodywork is good one, look at the fast bikes-- Forstall/Guppy, Bill Warner, Joe Amo,Ralph Hudson,Al Lamb. Off the shelf is questionable. We run suspension on all the bikes because,like this year, it can be pretty bumpy. Where ya at?
I haven't commented on here for a while but felt I had to chime in.
Listen to firemanjim. He speaks the truth.
Do not listen to anyone who has not ridden a bike similar to yours at Bonneville. This is not the NHRA and not the Texas Mile.
Study (copy) only the bikes that have set records.
Get a rulebook and memorize it. Do not try to outsmart it or read between the lines.
Kiss your savings goodbye and then enjoy yourself.
-
Firemanjim I'm in Texas. Thanks for the info., I had talked with Airtech as I have used their tanks and fairings on a few vintage Z1s guess I'll pull the trigger tomorrow and order the bodywork and a rear shock. I have built a few exhausts where I can swap out three different size and length collectors and cones and test them. This time I'll use a dyno. I thought trying some software might cut out some of the calculations and work, as for the plenum I'll wait until the final outcome of the motor after cams, pistons and porting I'll need that for the exhaust too. Plus it's a great feeling when you put the effort in to build something, if it doesn't workout I'll try it again, if it works even better, it's already going to be a challenge trying to bend .064. S.S. I know I can buy mandrel bends but that's not the point. Mike I have a 2017 rule book on my bed and have gone through it many times, I've been going through every google image I can find and YouTube vid, I'm up every night on the computer till 1 or two looking for information. I've just noticed different rules depending on the sanctioning body. There is a lot to take in. And yes it's going to use up some savings but if I don't use it my kids will lol. Ahh...what the hell...lets just
do it!!!
-
Ok I sat down and ordered most of what I need, as soon as Airtech opens I'll get the bodywork ordered. Any insight on what organizations I will need to join? I plan on loading up the RV and trailer and try to go to as many events as I can in 2018
-
Loring in Maine.
-
Loring in Maine.
:-) No membership required to run "up in the county" either :-)
Ed
-
It is very possible that you could do all the work you have outlined and then go slower than a stock bike. Believe me, I have done that!
You stated that you are going to do a lot of things to change the bike, but what are you doing to go FASTER than stock? The 'busa engine is 180 hp and that will get you to 188 mph on a good surface. Forget a hard tail. Your wheel will be in the air more than not. Why not use the stock wheels? It just seems like you are making a lot of changes, but none of them make you go any faster. TEll us more about how you are going to compete in the 1350 class which is extremely competitive.
Don
-
It might be wise to leave the motor stock for now and work on the chassis setup, aero, and rider skill aspects.
-
Well see you made assumptions that because I bought a new motor that it will be left stock. I'll just say this, for now, it has been shipped to the east coast for a few goodie's. The plan is to end up with a low rear engine setup with either an Earles or center hub steering running naked and PS. We have been kicking around different design ideas for quite a while, with all the planning and work involved with that setup I thought we would be lucky just to make WOS in 18. So the bike will be built using a Suzuki frame while we design and build the rear engine setup. This way we can get up and running quicker, make as many events as possible get as much time as we can to get the bike dialed in. I have a plan, it has changed and may change quite often but the end goal does not change, get to b-ville, race my bike, have fun, rince and repeat. Would I like to go out and break a record of course, will it happen not likely but give me two or three years and I'll be close
-
Frank06 I will be coming to Maine. I hunted in the Appleton area in the 70s my friend's dad brought us, he started going in 1948. His son and friends of ours still go to Appleton Ridge to hunt. I dated the daughter of the head guard at Thomaston State Prison Ken Demuth. Spent two summers one in Camden one on Rockport. I worked at a fabrication/ welding shop in Rockland for some crazy Sweed they were great times on my 75 Z1-900
-
Sofadriver and firemanjim gave you good advice
I set the first Land speed record on a Hayabusa in 1999
was really tough to improve back then because there were no aftermarket parts
-
I agree they did give me good advice. It definitely made me rethink my program. I do appreciate when people take the time to help I will be posting pics on my website. Acesandeightsmotorcycles.com and here
-
Use rear suspension if you can
I run in A-G/F 1350 with a rigid rear.
My first run this year at BMST was only 150 ( I have run over 200) It was so rough I was about
to pack up. The track did get better and/ or I got braver and had 1 run over 200.
It has not been a problem in Australia or Bonneville until this year
The guys with rear suspension had no problems
cheers Bones
-
I have gone with the full suspension. I now have my rims, rotors, calapers and controls. Has anyone used ABS? Also if anyone has a hart a friend of mine had 2 bikes stolen. Some of you guys know himchttps://www.gofundme.com/BonnevilleBound (https://www.gofundme.com/BonnevilleBound)
-
First what photo hosting sites are any good, I have photobucket but I'm not going to pay to post pics. The motor is going together, basics are CP Pistons, ti rods, billet crank and the head work by Vance and Hines. Frame, gen 1 with gen 2 everything else. Bodywork is Airtech Hayabusa B. Since Bridgestone 003's are no longer in production I went with the RS 10's. Next step I guess is put the bike together while I wait for the bodywork it should be ready in two to three weeks. Next I need to gather fuel lines, kill switch, fuel shut off, battery switch, sprockets and double check the rule book for anything else I will need to purchase.
-
Better than checking the rulebook for forgotten items -- is to get a copy of the Inspection sheet and go through what you're going to need to get through inspection.
Safety wires, tire age dates, full length metal chain guard, steering stops - stuff like that.
Have fun! Remember that the inspectors want you to be able to race, too. :cheers:
-
First what photo hosting sites are any good, I have photobucket but I'm not going to pay to post pics. The motor is going together, basics are CP Pistons, ti rods, billet crank and the head work by Vance and Hines. Frame, gen 1 with gen 2 everything else. Bodywork is Airtech Hayabusa B. Since Bridgestone 003's are no longer in production I went with the RS 10's. Next step I guess is put the bike together while I wait for the bodywork it should be ready in two to three weeks. Next I need to gather fuel lines, kill switch, fuel shut off, battery switch, sprockets and double check the rule book for anything else I will need to purchase.
1) Why ti rods and billet crank on a 1350 Busa class motor?
2) you do know that the Airtech "B" is designed to work with a Gen 1 and not a Gen 2?
-
[/quote]
1) Why ti rods and billet crank on a 1350 Busa class motor?
2) you do know that the Airtech "B" is designed to work with a Gen 1 and not a Gen 2?
[/quote]
Billet crank, Ti rods because 15:1 CR and they are less likely to spin a bearing at higher rpm's and I'm looking for a gen 1 cylinder block to go bigger at some point.
Spoke with Airtech when I made the order. You are correct about the gen 1, they told me the B body front will bolt up to the gen 2 stock fairing mounts and the rear bolts up to the gen 1 subframe but they have directions on the web site on how to modify the gen 2 subframe to fit
On the inspection sheet, I read through it but using it as a check sheet is a great idea thanks.
-
First what photo hosting sites are any good
--> https://imgur.com/ (https://imgur.com/)
-
On the inspection sheet, I read through it but using it as a check sheet is a great idea thanks.
[/quote]
I find that it's good to have a reasonably intelligent, motorcycle-savvy but uninformed person inspect your bike while reading out loud from the rules & inspection sheet.
Their input will be unbiased and ignorant of your concepts of how things should be. Helps to stop the tunnel-vision we all get and lets you see things from a different point of view.
-
How do titanium rods and a billet crank prevent bearing spinning? I see where the rods might be an advantage to reducing the reciprocating weight, however bearing spinning is due to lack of oil clearance/metal to metal contact. And that is remedied by having a high oil pressure and oil volume flow.
I am not saying don't buy those expensive parts but I just want to know how they prevent bearing spinning as you claim?
Don
-
How do titanium rods and a billet crank prevent bearing spinning? I see where the rods might be an advantage to reducing the reciprocating weight, however bearing spinning is due to lack of oil clearance/metal to metal contact. And that is remedied by having a high oil pressure and oil volume flow.
I am not saying don't buy those expensive parts but I just want to know how they prevent bearing spinning as you claim?
Don
IIRC, the current APS/F 1350 record was running a Gen 2 crank and Gen 2 rods. And the only thing that put that bike in "Fuel" was it wasn't running event gas.
-
Oil failure from heat, debris etc is probably the cause 98% of the time but when you have a motor that lives most of it's life over red line your chances of bearing fatigue increases. Knecum Performance is building the motor, we went went through all the different options and what the bike will be used for and this is the setup that was chosen. I have a 74 Z1 drag bike with a 15 year old Falicon crank and rods, it was money well spent
BTW HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE
-
OK, that's great that Knecum is building the engine. He is a Hayabusa expert. No doubt he will be doing some needed things to improve oil flow.
Don
-
BTW Don your last post was lucky number 666
-
Ok I'm tired of trying to load photos, error massages and resizing pics. So here is a link to the photo album. I mounted the tires, the head is back from V&H and engine parts are starting to come in.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/160998459@N03/albums/72157661167246597/with/38741273252/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160998459@N03/albums/72157661167246597/with/38741273252/)
-
I am using tinypic, http://tinypic.com/
one of your pics
(http://i63.tinypic.com/u7xqw.jpg)
-
Finally started some fitup (http://i67.tinypic.com/14kgpec.jpg)y
-
1350 hyabusa? what class/fuel are you building for?
-
APS/G 1350
-
Well the bodywork has not come yet, but the ceramic bearings did and I picked up a Buell Blast for my daughter to run in P/PP 500
-
Those look like steel Carillo rods?
-
You're right they do. I hope they are someone else's. I'll check
-
If you look close they are H Beam Ti rods it's hard to tell from the pic
-
Those look like steel Carillo rods?
They are Crower H beam Titanium rods !!! not Carrillo, not Wossners !!!!
-
1) Why ti rods and billet crank on a 1350 Busa class motor?
2) you do know that the Airtech "B" is designed to work with a Gen 1 and not a Gen 2?
[/quote]
For one reason.. it has better oiling with the straight shot oiling system and the crankshaft is not cross drilled like factory OEM cranks!!
Another is with Titanium rods you have less reciprocating weight which is ideal when your humming at redline at 12,000 RPM for 90 seconds and it provides less stress on the big end.
Another reason is.. because John can!!! its in his budget!!!!
He also wanted the same Bullet Proof parts that were used on our N/A Equipped record holding motors that went 254MPH At Bonneville, 239MPH at the 1.5 and 234MPH at the 1.0 and lastly the 217MPH 1.0 mile and 220MPH 1.5 mile Production bike !!! :-o :-D All that still stand!!! Oh and the 296 MPH 1 mile and 311 MPH Blown engine I built.
Any more questions?
-
Steve,
With all due respect, look at how these post/questions took place and under what conditions.
A relatively new guy shows up and says he wants to run a 1350 class Busa motor with the Airtech "B". Makes a statement that the engine is going to be built on the east coast with Ti Rods and a billet 65 mm crank, without the name of the builder until a few post later.
We both have seen waaaay too many folks throw their money away on "wanabee engine builders" not to ask a few questions...
-
Steve,
With all due respect, look at how these post/questions took place and under what conditions.
A relatively new guy shows up and says he wants to run a 1350 class Busa motor with the Airtech "B". Makes a statement that the engine is going to be built on the east coast with Ti Rods and a billet 65 mm crank, without the name of the builder until a few post later.
We both have seen waaaay too many folks throw their money away on "wanabee engine builders" not to ask a few questions...
Understood!! Someone did say they look like steel carrillos after my name was mentioned. So I just wanted to set them straight. Obviously they never used Crower H beam Ti!! Look for our team to try to set the Naked N/A record this yr with a new 1700cc combination. 220 is our lucky number!! Good luck ro everyone this yr and Happy New Years!!!
-
Well still waiting on the fairing for the Busa so I started a Buell Blast for my daughter to run in P/PP 500. So far I pulled the motor, removed the top end and checking what I can without pulling it all apart. I picked up a nice set of Thunderstorm heads and a couple of Wiseco Thunderstorm dome pistons and a NOS jug. Tonight I cut a new squish band and cut .0014 off the head, the measurements I took looked like I needed to cut .0018 so tomorrow I'll bolt it up and check the squish and valve clearance re cut the head if needed then port it. (http://i63.tinypic.com/2zs3214.jpg)
-
J... your mill must be way better than mine if you can re-setup and skim 4 tenths from a head.... or did ya get an extra 0 in there? :|
keep up the good work :cheers:
-
Ha your right .014 that's my dyslexia showing. Got the head done, resurfaced the valves and some porting just need to polish the exhaust port. I'll bet you a Coke I can reset and skim .001, I have a 250 head to do soon. I'll try it
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2rmawm0.jpg) (http://i63.tinypic.com/29w0mrc.jpg) (http://i63.tinypic.com/ibje5u.jpg)
-
the squish in the Thunderstorm head was 15 deg, the squish on the piston was 10 deg. Soooo after re-cutting the the squish to ten deg I ended up taking .045 off the head. Everything clears,so now I need to cc the head.
-
Well the bodywork finally showed, well most of it anyway and the motor is on it's way also.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2w2535k.jpg)(http://i66.tinypic.com/2eykhoo.jpg)
-
Well the motor is in and I'm fitting up the bodywork (http://i65.tinypic.com/15xvbic.jpg) (http://i63.tinypic.com/rbaz2u.jpg)
-
Getting started on wiring front to back
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2llkrr9.jpg)
-
Five hours squaring up the bike and just fitting the rear section (http://i68.tinypic.com/65u69j.jpg)
-
the squish in the Thunderstorm head was 15 deg, the squish on the piston was 10 deg. Soooo after re-cutting the the squish to ten deg I ended up taking .045 off the head. Everything clears,so now I need to cc the head.
I have found that opening up intake ports such as this may be detrimental to over all intake velocity. Got to be careful how much parent material is being removed. I would highly recommend getting the head on a flowbench, even if it is a small superflow 110 model. Also on the intake port it appears to have moved from centerline and will require some manifold work to match.
My wife runs one of these bikes and has a few national records. Good luck setting it up.
-
the squish in the Thunderstorm head was 15 deg, the squish on the piston was 10 deg. Soooo after re-cutting the the squish to ten deg I ended up taking .045 off the head. Everything clears,so now I need to cc the head.
I have found that opening up intake ports such as this may be detrimental to over all intake velocity. Got to be careful how much parent material is being removed. I would highly recommend getting the head on a flowbench, even if it is a small superflow 110 model. Also on the intake port it appears to have moved from centerline and will require some manifold work to match.
My wife runs one of these bikes and has a few national records. Good luck setting it up.
The pics are destorted for some reason. Very little material was removed more of a clean up rough up, the most was removed shaping around the valve guides the throat was pretty much left alone. The intake port lines up with the manifold, I'm pretty sure it's the pic that makes it look bad, they look oval in the pics and they are not. I'm not looking for big results from the Blast, I want my daughter to have some fun and some great memories with me.
-
Jruff: I'm not looking for big results from the Blast, I want my daughter to have some fun and some great memories with me.
I don't want to tell you what to do and I have not that much experience at Bonneville, but from what I saw with other guys racing along with me at Bonneville:
All those that built a bike "just for fun" usually ended up breaking it badly on their rookie run...
Lack of focus at build time (it's only for fun...) cost them a week of racing and maybe a record cause some of these bikes did look great.
Get focussed on both bikes like they're the last thing you'll ever do, it'll repay both of you a thousand times in the long run.
Patrick
-
Jruff: I'm not looking for big results from the Blast, I want my daughter to have some fun and some great memories with me.
I don't want to tell you what to do and I have not that much experience at Bonneville, but from what I saw with other guys racing along with me at Bonneville:
All those that built a bike "just for fun" usually ended up breaking it badly on their rookie run...
Lack of focus at build time (it's only for fun...) cost them a week of racing and maybe a record cause some of these bikes did look great.
Get focussed on both bikes like they're the last thing you'll ever do, it'll repay both of you a thousand times in the long run.
Patrick
Ok maybe I need to clarify my statement. First you are right and it is a serious project, I have been spending more time on that bike and it has put mine behind schedule. The just for fun part is; while my daughter is quite competitive, I don't want her to think that she needs to try to chase anything her first time out. If it was a real just for fun bike I would have put her on a stock Blast. BTW it is now APS/PG 500. My daughter swam and ran track in school went to the Junior Olympics, she gave it up because of the coaches and her mother, it wasn't fun anymore. So we'll go to Bonneville, have some fun, no pressure let her make some runs. She is a lot like me so I'm willing to bet after a few runs it will be game on, if not the bike will go to my girlfriends grandson or be saved for when I have grandkids
-
Thanks for the update, and accept my apologies for my misreading!!!
I should be at Speed Week on the Salt Flats next year, so maybe see you there...
Patrick
-
Well down to the wire, just paint and 25 more pounds of lead to shove in somewhere
-
Interesting design, Guppy type intake , And NACA to give a boundry layer ?
You mentioned building a tank is that still on the plans ,
And probably retelling something you know well , but watch the position of your COG/COP
-
I did build the tank, I used the Busa tank as a shell, the NACA Ducts were put in to push air past my shoulders and vacuum air from under the nose there is a shelf in the nose just above ram air tubes. Small scale testing showed it worked all I can say it was amazingly quite when tucked in, much better then my CBR @185. The bike is very stable over 200, I'm very happy with it. We did have a few issues, three days lost because of mapping issues loaded in to both ECUs may have happened while I was learn to use ECU Editor. On our first good pass on Tuesday we had a wobble at 114 mph it came on like clockwork work, made some body changes and foil tape on the exhaust opening and some holes took care of that and went right through to B license, pissed away most of Thursday making the exhaust bezel out of aluminum and other repairs more permanent then ran a 205 and change for our A license. Then a 208 but the bike was flat with no pickup after fourth gear so we made a gearing change ran a 203. I was in shock we lost speed with shorter gears. Time for one more run I put the dash in for this run and WTF All week we never got out of fourth gear. Ok rookie mistake but I did break 200 my first time at Bonneville and in 4th Gear at that. I had a Shitl load of fun, met a bunch of good people and got to do it with some of my family.
Interesting design, Guppy type intake , And NACA to give a boundry layer ?
You mentioned building a tank is that still on the plans ,
And probably retelling something you know well , but watch the position of your COG/COP
-
The Crew
-
The bike and crew look great! Congratulations on your first runs at Bonneville. Virtually everyone who goes to Bonneville has problems with something or other, it is just part of racing. But you will get them all straightened out I am sure. The problem is that you only get to test your fixes about once a year. Bummer.
Don