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Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials General Chat => Topic started by: knucklenutz on October 22, 2017, 08:36:33 AM



Title: A proposal
Post by: knucklenutz on October 22, 2017, 08:36:33 AM
I did not attend  BMST this year. I am preparing a Knucklehead to run and am still a distance from completion. I did follow ( as closely as possible ) this years event.  I understand that attendance of competitors was down significantly. Reports of very long queue waits were rampant. After Skyping with on of my Pass The Salt Please team partners, I wish to offer up a suggestion. It would seem that a drastic rule/procedure change might be in order. Contemplate this :
 Make a single direction run fir record purposes. OR, make a two run record that is done from the same direction.  Perhaps radical, yet at the same time , it might save BMST.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 22, 2017, 09:02:45 AM
The decision to go or not go to the meet was made before we knew about the single course layout.  The economy is doing good and lots of folks have jobs and money.  Why the low turnout?


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: Pippi2 on October 22, 2017, 03:58:05 PM
Good afternoon Racers!
All questions and comments can be addressed to: info@bonnevillespeedtrials.com

Have a great building season and see you in 2018!


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: knucklenutz on October 25, 2017, 03:32:01 PM
I respectfully suggest that comments on my proposal continue to be aired here on this forum so that we can all see what others feel .


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on October 25, 2017, 06:34:20 PM
Nuckles, this Forum is about as open as it gets - and you're more than welcome to ask for debate about your ideas.  I'll cautiously remind you, though, that while BMST folks might read what here (a la Pippa) -- they can do what they wish to consider your (or anyone's) input.

In other words, don't be bummed if you don't get full two-way discussion.  Landracing dot com is the messenger. . . :|


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on October 26, 2017, 02:10:55 PM
Knuckles.

I would not want that as it would make the event even more different than the SCTA/BNI sanctioned events as far as whether the AMA records hold as much prestige as those.  What I would like to see is the BMST adopt the rule that if you set a record you go to impound and make your return run the next morning like the other events.  This would achieve the same "speed up the event: effect you are going for and make it a more universal format like the other races. 

The stupid FIM rule that the back-up run must be made within 2 hours should be done away with as it only causes problems and requires extra staff for the escorts that are needed. The expenses for the vehicle and the person driving the escort vehicle could be used so much better in other ways.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: panic on October 26, 2017, 03:21:11 PM
Both runs same direction, or one day interval?
Defeats a major feature of the rapid 2-way: it filters out wind speed.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: knucklenutz on October 27, 2017, 09:43:46 AM
NHRS, I fully support your idea. BSMT racers please continue to air your thoughts.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on October 27, 2017, 10:47:47 AM
back up runs in the opposite direction the next morning just like SCTA.  Wind might be better or worse the next day, that's just the way the game is played.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: Stan Back on October 27, 2017, 03:52:29 PM
SCTA back-up runs haven't been in the opposite direction for years.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: maj on October 27, 2017, 04:43:09 PM
You know, i thought the whole return run thing was working fine , the second run has to be done and thats what takes the track time no matter how its organised in the background,

It was unfortunate this year that the conditions and entry numbers meant there was only one track and it was a bit of a wait,
esp in the first day or so as everyone settled in to a routine



Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on October 30, 2017, 09:40:45 AM
SCTA back-up runs haven't been in the opposite direction for years.

They are not?  So SCTA snactioned meets at Bonneville are only run in one direction? 


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on October 30, 2017, 09:45:21 AM
That's correct - one way only since the early '00s.  The first time Nancy qualified we made her backup run from mountain to freeway (well, so to speak).  Ask Noonan when it was - I remember we helped him with a bit of air for his drive tire so I know he'd qualified, too.  I don't know if that particular year was the last, but it was soon thereafter if not.  FIA/FIM still runs both ways, of course.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: AHG on October 30, 2017, 01:19:27 PM
 If you go back to a previous posting you will find a link to the AMA Supplemental regulations, and see how to offer your thoughts on any rules change.

See CHAPTER ONE - COMPETITION PROCEDURES - PAGE 17
1.Q. REQUEST FOR RULE CHANGES
All Rule requests must be made in writing to the Promoter. All rule changes are subject to approval by the AMA.



Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on October 30, 2017, 01:37:06 PM
SCTA back-up runs haven't been in the opposite direction for years.

They are not?  So SCTA snactioned meets at Bonneville are only run in one direction? 

Well then I would like to see the backup runs ran the next morning in the same direction just like SCTA does now.  :-D


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: wobblywalrus on October 30, 2017, 11:43:31 PM
It is nice to be able to make that record run and return close together in time like it is now.  The next day the meet could be over or rained out.  Also, it is more challenging to do them back-to-back and there is some satisfaction that goes along with it.  It would be fuming it down to go to the next day format. 


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: salt27 on October 31, 2017, 02:46:35 AM
It is nice to be able to make that record run and return close together in time like it is now.  The next day the meet could be over or rained out.  Also, it is more challenging to do them back-to-back and there is some satisfaction that goes along with it.  It would be fuming it down to go to the next day format. 


Bo, you make a point but there is also something about those sunrise backup runs that are enthralling.

 Don


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on October 31, 2017, 10:06:08 AM
It is nice to be able to make that record run and return close together in time like it is now.  The next day the meet could be over or rained out.  Also, it is more challenging to do them back-to-back and there is some satisfaction that goes along with it.  It would be fuming it down to go to the next day format. 


Bo, you make a point but there is also something about those sunrise backup runs that are enthralling.

 Don



I also think it would awesome to see all the record runs being made all together first thing each day.  Everyone would know who is going for record instead of the craziness we have now plus I think it would greatly speed up the event.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: Chris V on October 31, 2017, 11:55:40 AM
So if return run is done on the following AM and your down run is early on the day before would your bike sit in impound all day and night !!


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on October 31, 2017, 01:41:40 PM
Under SCTA rules - yes, if you qualify you must go to impound and your vehicle stays there until the pit steward releases you the next morning - or you forfeit your return run.

You must present to impound within one hour of the exit time on your timing slip, and you have four hours on which to perform routine maintenance and stuff on your vehicle.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on October 31, 2017, 02:45:17 PM
Under SCTA rules - yes, if you qualify you must go to impound and your vehicle stays there until the pit steward releases you the next morning - or you forfeit your return run.

You must present to impound within one hour of the exit time on your timing slip, and you have four hours on which to perform routine maintenance and stuff on your vehicle.

I would love to see these rules implemented at BMST.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: tortoise on October 31, 2017, 06:40:42 PM
I would love to see these rules implemented at BMST.

In hell, they want ice water. You want a world record, you play by FIM rules.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on November 01, 2017, 10:04:15 AM
One has to smile at a thread like this  :-),,

The proponents are always quick to applaud the Records set by fellow competitors who have "all" played within(and verified) the rules,, however when it comes to "them" (the proponets) thay seek change  :roll:

Not sure what you are trying to imply as I currently hold several records so that would not apply to me.  My goal is to get the track running quicker and to have the AMA rules more in line with the SCTA/BNI rules so that records set at one event would be closer in "value" to another events records.   And personally I wish the FIM was no more at BMST.    That is my opinion so no reason to argue about it.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: knucklenutz on November 02, 2017, 09:07:57 AM
NRHS Sales, Thank you for your support and sensible approach to this mess. Having a system of interchangeable rules would simplify Land Speed Racing.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on November 02, 2017, 10:51:56 AM
I would love to see these rules implemented at BMST.

In hell, they want ice water. You want a world record, you play by FIM rules.

I think the folks who run Speedweek,  WOS and finals would tend to disagree with you as the records set at those events are considered world records.  FIM is not the only game in town.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: tortoise on November 02, 2017, 12:27:58 PM
I would love to see these rules implemented at BMST.

In hell, they want ice water. You want a world record, you play by FIM rules.

I think the folks who run Speedweek,  WOS and finals would tend to disagree with you as the records set at those events are considered world records.  FIM is not the only game in town.

The SCTA is an association of clubs, all of which are in Southern California. I can find no instance  of them claiming world record status for their records. Show me where I'm wrong. Personally, I have as much, if not more, respect for a SCTA record as an FIA or FIM record, but that's not the question. Racers have risked, even lost their life, running by international rules at Bonneville, where a two way course was a sketchy proposition, so the world record seems to have had meaning for them beyond that of an SCTA record.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on November 02, 2017, 02:17:26 PM
Every person I have ever talked to who set a record at the SCTA/BNI events at Bonneville has always referred to it as a "world record".   If I am wrong about that I would like to hear from an SCTA official.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on November 02, 2017, 02:22:09 PM
I would love to see these rules implemented at BMST.

In hell, they want ice water. You want a world record, you play by FIM rules.

I think the folks who run Speedweek,  WOS and finals would tend to disagree with you as the records set at those events are considered world records.  FIM is not the only game in town.


The SCTA is an association of clubs, all of which are in Southern California. I can find no instance  of them claiming world record status for their records. Show me where I'm wrong. Personally, I have as much, if not more, respect for a SCTA record as an FIA or FIM record, but that's not the question. Racers have risked, even lost their life, running by international rules at Bonneville, where a two way course was a sketchy proposition, so the world record seems to have had meaning for them beyond that of an SCTA record.




AMA records do the same thing, on the same course, on the same days.  So what is your point?


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: tortoise on November 02, 2017, 03:17:48 PM
AMA records do the same thing, on the same course, on the same days.  So what is your point?

Same thing as SCTA or same thing as FIM?  AMA records, if I understand correctly, are also FIM records, if they're fast enough.  You know, I didn't think what I said was even mildly controversial.

I don't know what your question about "my point" means.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: JimL on November 02, 2017, 06:12:18 PM
Huge advantage to all day impound and early morning return runs:  You never have to set up a pit.  Be ready to make the first half of the record, straight from first inspection.  Bike goes to impound until morning.  Go straight back to impound and then make your class change....and so on until you made the records you came for.  It is a lot less stress and saves money and time.

Also...the guests and spectators love dropping by impound to see what is happening and who is in there.  It is very nice for those visitors and it makes the event feel "organized" for their enjoyment (after all.....they do pay to be there and they should enjoy the show!)

As far as what to call the record, I always called it a "Bonneville record".  That's about all you can call it, considering all the possible events down through the years.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: Chris V on November 03, 2017, 10:29:03 AM
My vote is to keep it the way it is with immediate return run for record so as to continue racing the rest of the day
that's why my wife and I do it is to come and ride as much as we can.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on November 03, 2017, 02:16:17 PM
AMA records do the same thing, on the same course, on the same days.  So what is your point?

Same thing as SCTA or same thing as FIM?  AMA records, if I understand correctly, are also FIM records, if they're fast enough.  You know, I didn't think what I said was even mildly controversial.

I don't know what your question about "my point" means.

Are you familiar with FIM motorcycle classes? AMA classes and FIM classes are very. VERY different..  For instance FIM does not differentiate between pushrod or non pushrod engines but it does matter how many cylinders the bike has which doesn't matter to AMA.  There are quite a few current AMA records that are actually faster than the equivalent FIM records


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: nrhs sales on November 03, 2017, 02:33:45 PM
Tortoise,
Do you hold some current FIM motorcycle records?  I do not.  All of our records are SCTA/BNI or AMA records.  We have never felt the need to go thru the FIM hassle as IMO a record is a record no matter who sanctions it and our focus is 100% on pushrod engined bikes.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: tortoise on November 03, 2017, 03:10:20 PM
Tortoise,
Do you hold some current FIM motorcycle records?  I do not.  All of our records are SCTA/BNI or AMA records.  We have never felt the need to go thru the FIM hassle as IMO a record is a record no matter who sanctions it and our focus is 100% on pushrod engined bikes.

No to this and the question in your previous post. I agree that a record is a record. My interest is mainly in cars. My comment which seemed to set you off was only an observation that some people want records sanctioned by the world bodies.  The organizers of the BMST and the Top Speed Shootout cannot unilaterally change the rules.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: knucklenutz on November 04, 2017, 04:28:55 PM
Back to my original idea........
 Because of recent weather and track conditions, I feel that if rules were homogenized, a person could run at different meets with out the trouble of re-configuring. An example : John & Tom ship their bikes from Denmark just about every other year. On a year where there is bad weather and BMST is canceled, they are pretty much screwed. If SCTA & AMA rules were the same, They could make their trip worthwhile by having the convenience of bing able to compete at Speed Week, BMST and El Mirage all in very near a months time. I understand that there are relatively few competitors that are shipping from overseas.  My point is more about bringing this sport together.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: RichFox on November 04, 2017, 05:25:07 PM
At one time AMA did run the bikes at SpeedWeek. Then in an effort to make SpeedWeek more homogenized BNI took over the rules and records. It seems to have plesaed lots of people for quite some time, now. I doubt AMA is going to change the way they do business. But between the BMST, USFRA, and BNI you should be able to find something that makes you happy. 


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: **RP** on November 05, 2017, 06:27:44 PM
I also doubt the AMA will change the way they run the event or change the class rules to line up with SCTA class rules.  I submitted proposals for AMA class rule changes to try to get the rules lined up 2 years in a row with no success.


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: maj on November 06, 2017, 03:04:00 PM
The rules are currently quite similar , better than a few years ago anyway , we have no problem running in AMA or FIM straight after SCTA or vise versa 


Title: Re: A proposal
Post by: Koncretekid on November 07, 2017, 06:53:32 AM
My vote is to keep it the way it is with immediate return run for record so as to continue racing the rest of the day
that's why my wife and I do it is to come and ride as much as we can.

For the first time, I attended both BMST and WOS this year. I went as a competitor at BMST, but as a Tech inspector at WOS.  

I, like you, was always quite happy to be able to get my return run almost immediately so I could go out and try to bump my own record.  At one meet, I had to make three down runs, qualifying for a record each time, and three return runs before I got the record.  First return, the carburetor came loose, second return resulted in running just off course at the return mile timer, and thirdly being successful.

So at WOS, I noticed that as you say record qualifiers had to wait in impound until the next morning.  But one team had the remedy.  I met Allen and John Levie who brought not just one but three machines - - an open 175cc turbo charged bike, a side car kneeler, and a sidecar streamliner - - all in one trailer!  Qualified for records in all three classes which took most of the day.  Came back the next morning and made two successful back-up runs while the kneeler's motor failed.  They spent the rest of the morning changing classes and qualified for two more records that afternoon in Gas classes rather than the Fuel classes.  Came back the next morning and were successful in both those changed classes, so set about changing classes again, the streamliner back in gas to try to bump its own record, and by adding a sidecar wheel to the open bike, both changes which were successful!  So six records in 2-1/2 days.  The moral of the story is that you can keep running at SCTA events, as long as you bring extra machines.

Tom