Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Unforgiven on October 07, 2017, 11:24:35 PM
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Just trying to learn the basics to get me started. From what I see, an 883 punched to 1000cc would go in Modified Production Gas 1000cc class. Now the question I have, would a hardtail put on a 2006 rubbermount qualify it as A (special construction) Thanks for your time and answers. Ed
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Ed, get a rule book... I don't think just adding a hardtail will put you in A..... did I mention get a rule book :wink: Buy one now, don't wait for the new one.... it will be March or so.
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Hardtail via struts, or welded on frame?
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Ed, get a rule book... I don't think just adding a hardtail will put you in A..... did I mention get a rule book :wink: Buy one now, don't wait for the new one.... it will be March or so.
Ordering rulebook tomorrow. Thanks man.
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Hardtail via struts, or welded on frame?
Wanted to weld on a hard tail that will increase wheel base. I'm sorta partial to the lines of a motorcycle and like to keep the flow of the line instead of just adding a longer swing arm with steel struts.
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Personally, I'm going from struts to shocks.
The Salt is getting to rough for a hardtail.
Sam
#6062
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I am looking at most likely putting together a modified production Sportster together for the 1000cc class, but I am still cyphering on a A build with a turbo. Just more stuff I have to gather up for that. Either way they both look attainable.
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Start with the simplest one.
FREUD
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Modified looks simpler than a turbo and fuel injection, since I can't find anyone that has made a carb/turbo combo on a sportster work very well, yet.
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An 883 won't make a very efficient 1000cc LSR engine. I suggest you use an XB9 Buell engine. Much better bore/stroke ratio.
Joe
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He's been racing Sportsters for 40 years and's got "a pile of parts". Probly should give them a try first and see what he likes. Maybe put a green seat on it or change the headlight -- I don't really know the multitude of bike classes (and it shows!).
Stan
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An 883 won't make a very efficient 1000cc LSR engine. I suggest you use an XB9 Buell engine. Much better bore/stroke ratio.
Joe
Was thinking like you, but am considering dropping an xb9 rotating assembly in a rubbermount case (think it is a drop in-gotta check ) use some buell xb12 cylinders have a few sets of 06 heads either or 1200 or xb12. Buell and sportsters are basically the same engine, except the buell's got the hp stuff. Cranks are lighter versus heavier. Thanks for thinking like me. I am trying to do this as cheap as possible so the pile of parts will come in handy. All I have are rubbermount bikes and parts to pick from right now. Little heavier than the older bikes, but way mobetta built. The only difference in the rubber 883 and 1200's are piston size, and heads. They all use the same crank and rods, and even the same cylinders (cept different colors) until 08. Everything I have is excellent used or new, so modified looks the cheapest and simplest. Now I gotta figure out how to make it go 150 something. The swap will put me at 984cc and it will rev way higher.
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He's been racing Sportsters for 40 years and's got "a pile of parts". Probly should give them a try first and see what he likes. Maybe put a green seat on it or change the headlight -- I don't really know the multitude of bike classes (and it shows!).
Stan
You have a sense of humor, that's way better than knowledge sometimes. Modified, I am basically assuming as stated can or must be production modified. So. dropping a xb9 crank with some decent pistons in a 06 with xb12 cylinders and 06 1200 heads (modified production of course) would get her in modified production. Nahlin and a couple guys did a rigid 883 to 1000 years ago and set the record. But they did it with custom pistons and crank etc. Cheaper nowadays. Anyway that little swap puts the engine at a higher revving 984cc. And cheap to do. And way simple. I like your thinking too; But green on a bike is bad luck. Maybe no seat ?
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I put an XB9 engine in an iron head Sportster frame ... I am sure a rubber mount wouldn't be impossible. On any rough surface a rigid bike will drive your ax hole up through your shoulder blades. I converted a rigid drag frame to swing arm because the uneven surface kept unloading the rear tire plus the shake was jarring. Think this out carefully. Do it right the first time.
Joe
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I don't have a complete engine. The XB9 crank is new in the box. I would like to have the better gearing of the xb9. The pile of parts yielded up enough to get started. I still have to consider how to build it. The record Nahlin helped with back in 2001 was a P-PP build on a rigid mount 883. Took it out to 1000. Either P-PP or Modified production looks the simplest and cheapest. I have a friend that does this land speed stuff with Buells and sportsters..
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Actually Joe just gave You some really Good advice
As bad as Bville is getting and as bad as El Mirage can get You need suspension.
As many thoughts as You have a rule book wont be your salvation.
You need to get in touch with Matt Schuss, He is a member here and He knows all the answers.
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Thanks for the advise. I am looking at just modifying the engine keeping the stock appearing suspension, but already I am getting confused by the classes and rules. Seems P-PP fits my idea and parts pile the best. I really don't want to modify the frame. According to P-PP a buell has the record in the 1000cc class at 144 and some change. Looks attainable. I know the bike Nahlin did the heads for was an 883 punched to 1000cc in 2001 and it ran in P-PP
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It will be easier to understand when you read all the rules. Production must appear to be a factory stock bike... Modified allows all kinds of external changes... both allow internal changes...
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It will be easier to understand when you read all the rules. Production must appear to be a factory stock bike... Modified allows all kinds of external changes... both allow internal changes...
I would second Joe's suggestion to use rear suspension unless you are going to race on pavement.
Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk
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It will be easier to understand when you read all the rules. Production must appear to be a factory stock bike... Modified allows all kinds of external changes... both allow internal changes...
Ah, ok. Then Production P-PP is what I want to build for. As I want to keep the bike stock looking.
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Good choice. But if you don't do something to increase your inches, you'll have the smallest PP at the meet. Stretch it out. Don't get caught with that little thing. (Don't worry, you probably won't make it to Impound where someone will actually measure it.)
Good luck!
Stan Back
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Production also means stock mufflers (externally) and stock Air box (filter can be mia)
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Good choice. But if you don't do something to increase your inches, you'll have the smallest PP at the meet. Stretch it out. Don't get caught with that little thing. (Don't worry, you probably won't make it to Impound where someone will actually measure it.)
Good luck!
Stan Back
See. A sense of humor is better than knowledge sometimes. I caught on after the second read and then spit beer on the screen. :cheers: If I run faster than 144 and change (what I read record for P-PP 1000cc is by Jdees Performance Buell) won't I have to go to impound, I mean if I can squeeze 145 or so out of hopped up heavy assed rubbermount. And that is what bothers me...I have gone over 130 on a hot rod sportster in way less than a mile; So, what is it that makes it so difficult. I have been drag racing sportsters for over 40 years, and I always wondered about the speeds at Bonneville. I told a friend that I would need to go over 144 with my build and he said that was slow.
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Production also means stock mufflers (externally) and stock Air box (filter can be mia)
Besides the top gas bike I never race anymore; Most of my drag bikes have been stock appearing modified bike classes. I know most of the tricks related to sportsters . I just can't figure out why it would be so hard to go over 144 with a 1000cc built and tricked sportster. I have gone a shade over 132 with a slightly hopped up sportster. And it didn't take 3 miles. Do we run three miles ? I don't understand why it would be so difficult. The salt ? The course? I have never been there live. Looking forward to it.
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Production also means stock mufflers (externally) and stock Air box (filter can be mia)
Besides the top gas bike I never race anymore; Most of my drag bikes have been stock appearing modified bike classes. I know most of the tricks related to sportsters . I just can't figure out why it would be so hard to go over 144 with a 1000cc built and tricked sportster. I have gone a shade over 132 with a slightly hopped up sportster. And it didn't take 3 miles. Do we run three miles ? I don't understand why it would be so difficult. The salt ? The course? I have never been there live. Looking forward to it.
Not too many drag bikes will last 3-5 miles wide open, and where traction (loose salt) is a big factor. Oh, and try to do this at 4200 to 7000 ft density altitude. A true adventure.
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And remember it's not an instantaneous speed reading, but rather the average speed over a mile. :-o :-o :-o
Pete
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Production also means stock mufflers (externally) and stock Air box (filter can be mia)
Besides the top gas bike I never race anymore; Most of my drag bikes have been stock appearing modified bike classes. I know most of the tricks related to sportsters . I just can't figure out why it would be so hard to go over 144 with a 1000cc built and tricked sportster. I have gone a shade over 132 with a slightly hopped up sportster. And it didn't take 3 miles. Do we run three miles ? I don't understand why it would be so difficult. The salt ? The course? I have never been there live. Looking forward to it.
Not too many drag bikes will last 3-5 miles wide open, and where traction (loose salt) is a big factor. Oh, and try to do this at 4200 to 7000 ft density altitude. A true adventure.
I knew there was way more to it than just haulin' the mail. I know a team that races Buells and they said it is sometimes like riding on ball bearings. I believe this is gonna be just what I need to do
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Trying to post picture, but can't figure it out
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And remember it's not an instantaneous speed reading, but rather the average speed over a mile. :-o :-o :-o
Pete
Ah ha. That is the reason it is so difficult, well I imagine a major part of it.
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So at the risk of inviting competition, here are the 1000cc pushrod records at Bonneville (and El Mirage):
Bonneville:
P-PP buell 144
M-PG guzzi 158 (no aero, amazing number really)
M-PF h-d 150
A-PG guzzi 151
A-PF h-d 167 (someone in the F class actually running fuel?)
MPS-PG guzzi 170
MPS-PF buell 181 (ditto on the fuel)
APS-PG guzzi 171
APS-PF guzzi 170 (obviously the gas bike with mods to pass fuel tech)
El Mirage:
P-PP unknown 138
M-PG guzzi 142 (my record)
M-PF unset 137 (minimum, maybe I'll go after this next year)
A-PG unknown 154
A-PF unknown 169
MPS-PG unset 144 (minimum, I'm going for this next week)
MPS-PF unset 151 (minimum)
APS-PG guzzi 161
APS-PF unknown 165
My 1000cc motor is an old road race motor, not a drag race motor. The only way I could possibly think about trying to match the M-PG speed (158) from Bonneville would be with a new 90+ HP motor (~$10K). YM(PH)MV...
This sport is a lot harder than I thought it would be. Consistency is the key. I have had a total of 9 runs to date (I'm a rookie this year), and I have only had one run close to my best (backed up the 142 with a 141). Otherwise I can drop as low as 131 or run 136 if I pick the wrong jetting or gearing, but sometimes I have no reason for why I'm slow (or fast for that matter). Run Bonneville if you want the mystique (and corrosion), but El Mirage offers more opportunities to run per year, and on vehicles with low records, the shorter length is not a hindrance.
In case you haven't been paying attention, El Mirage added over 300 M classes last winter, and set (what I believe to be) low minimums. I decided to run last winter before I had heard about the new classes, and figured I'd have to run A. Once they announced the M classes, but hadn't yet published minimums, I figured the minimum for M-PG at ElMo would be about 150 (looking at the other 1000 pushrod classes at ElMo and Bonne). As it is they set it to 130, I went 129 my rookie weekend, 136 the next, and 142 the next. I appear to have stalled there, and so I'm adding some aero for next weekend and will go after the MPS-PG record. Come out, have fun, just stay behind me... 8^))
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I knew there was way more to it than just haulin' the mail. I know a team that races Buells and they said it is sometimes like riding on ball bearings. I believe this is gonna be just what I need to do
If it was easy everybody would be doing it....
Wait till you set a record to celebrate it....
When folks ask how fast we are going to go I always correct the question and tell them how fast we need to go instead
Good luck
See ya on the salt if you get there 8-)
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P-PP is where I will end up. I am sure I have everything in the shop and barn to build the bike. I have been reading over at the USFRA site and I found the best description of the salt and course there. I have never been there, but I could visibly see dude sideways for a mile . Now I get it. Holy crap I wouldn't want to hit a washout on a motorcycle at over 150. I have survived a sand hit at 60 once, and it sucked. Man I can't wait, finally something to get excited about again.
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Good luck next week. :cheers:
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Here's a bit to give you another view of racing a bike on the salt.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImtEKiicus
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P-PP is where I will end up. I am sure I have everything in the shop and barn to build the bike. I have been reading over at the USFRA site and I found the best description of the salt and course there. I have never been there, but I could visibly see dude sideways for a mile . Now I get it. Holy crap I wouldn't want to hit a washout on a motorcycle at over 150. I have survived a sand hit at 60 once, and it sucked. Man I can't wait, finally something to get excited about again.
My first few runs at El Mirage went something like this...
I bought my old AMA Pro-Twins bike back from the guy I sold it to in 1994. I didn't run the bike in anger before my first ElMo event, as I wanted to save the motor. I also moved the seat rearward for more drive traction. These 2 things conspired to make my first run quite "interesting". I had the padding in the seat while I roadraced as I liked to crowd/load the front end and have a light touch on the bars. With the seat now back, and at 100 MPH plus, I was now hanging on for dear life putting way too much input into the bars. The rearward seat together with an ankle I broke 17 years ago conspired to make me miss the shift to 5th. I tried a second time, this time jerking my whole leg and foot upward. Still missed the shift, and now had the bars twitching from all the input. Was looking down at the lake bed and noticed what looked like huge ruts that I was going at a low angle to. At this point I didn't know if I was in 4th or 5th, said eff it, pinned it, and just finished the run at 115 MPH. After a track walk, managed to convince myself that what looks like ruts is actually smooth lake bed with rubber laid on it by wide car tires. Cut up my foam cooler and taped some padding on my saddle, and adjusted the shifter angle. Next day, made a second run of 129.3. My point, I had 7 years roadracing THIS bike (the first 7 of an 18 year career), and many hundreds of races, and yet I was totally unprepared for what a simple run up though the gears on a dry lake would entail.
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I have been riding a motorcycle for transportation forever; Well since 1976. Been drag racing and fiddlin' with sportsters and a couple other models for decades. Hell we were doing 1250 sportsters before it was cool. Maybe this will give me an advantage. I don't want to pick on the Moto Guzzi's because I have owned a 1968 850 Eldorado (that is what the previous owner said it was) since 1994, and I have feelings for her; All was good until last year I tried to dodge some deer, and then she body slammed me. She is still sitting in the corner until I decide to let her out. I'm not very competitive. Even when I drag raced, I never really paid much attention to the other racer. I'm kinda all about the bike and being one with it. I got a mean ass tuck; You can hardly tell me apart from the motorcycle. :lol:
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Here's a bit to give you another view of racing a bike on the salt.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImtEKiicus
Ah hell, if I crash (if I ever get there) I am going to crash way mobetta than that.
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You dont get better than that , Jason was riding (battlescarred) at the next meeting a couple of weeks later :cheers:
Good luck out there , you know this is addictive right :-D