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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Stainless1 on October 03, 2017, 09:59:00 PM

Title: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 03, 2017, 09:59:00 PM
Well I have been thinking about putting a new frame in the Bockscar for several years.  Pork Pie started working on new canopy and top drawings to eliminate the engine bumps.  The old frame held up quite well for one that was out there for the first time 41 years ago.   The helmets outgrew the cage we installed in 1984.... we redid it... but they seem to be headed that way again, so the cage will grow a little with the top. 

Since the accident I have been trying to decide if we really want to build another car from scratch... and spend half my retirement money... with the salt in such a questionable condition.... and I have decided no!

That's no to spending half the retirement.... I think I can do it on 30%... going to reuse as much of the old car as possible.  Will it be ready for SW18? Couldn't tell ya

I have to start this by saying thanks to my first sponsor Sparky Bill Smith, he gave me the 20 ft long 29 inch wide build table he had stashed in his back yard.  I picked it up after WoS on my way home.  It needed to be mobile, so I put wheels on it, then it needed to be stable so I put retractable legs on it so it won't rotate unless I want it to. 
Started welding and squaring up fixtures on it today so I can put some pipe on it soon
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 03, 2017, 10:51:22 PM
YES!
I'll pick up some lubricant for you . . . :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on October 03, 2017, 11:16:53 PM
Looking good. The shop floor looks clean :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on October 03, 2017, 11:48:06 PM
That's a nice looking jig. You should be able to build something really nice using that. Good luck!

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: fordboy628 on October 04, 2017, 06:22:30 AM
YES!
I'll pick up some lubricant for you . . . :cheers:

Bob,

Hmmmm . . . . .   66 huh?   Same age as I am, so I have some suggestions:

A/   DO NOT let the build budget negatively impact your suds budget.   Seriously, there have to be: PRIORITIES

2/   Refining/updating the design seems like a smart idea to me.   I'm thinkin' you are not going to want to do this over because of some small unconsidered detail.

d/   Another member of our "66" club, Tom Petty, has recently departed to places "unknown".    I'd say: "Git 'er done!!"   After all, we are all "walking wounded" at this age . . . . . .

As always, if you need anything from me, you know how to get a hold of me.    Even if it is just an infusion of "Dragon's Milk" . . . . . .

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 04, 2017, 09:19:31 PM
FB, not to worry, that 20% is my lubrication budget...  :roll: so I can't really count it against the car. 
Usually spend most of my money on racing, women and booze.... and waste the rest...

So I have decided to build the front 140 inches of the car (less the nose) first, that will be front suspension, drivers area, engine bay and rear suspension mounts.  Hoping to not screw it up, we have been refining this thing for 33 years.  I know I want 2 or 3 more inches of climb in room, for the knees that are not getting any younger.... or more agile...
I am trying to figure out how to make an engine mount that just installs the mount and engine in the bay to eliminate the major fight we have getting engines in and out.... it may include the removable frame rail or not... time will tell if I can figure it out. 

I will make all the curved parts and weld them to the 24 X 16 rectangular section later. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on October 05, 2017, 07:30:34 AM
George Burns once said something to the effect, "My doctor said I had to give up women, booze and cigars! Worst five minutes of my life! That doctor has been dead for 15 years now!"  :-o :-D :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on October 05, 2017, 08:03:50 AM
Excellent idea on the wheels...the only thing is my shop that isn`t on wheels are my cars..........
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2017, 10:56:50 AM
FB, not to worry, that 20% is my lubrication budget...  :roll: so I can't really count it against the car. 
Usually spend most of my money on racing, women and booze.... and waste the rest...

So I have decided to build the front 140 inches of the car (less the nose) first, that will be front suspension, drivers area, engine bay and rear suspension mounts.  Hoping to not screw it up, we have been refining this thing for 33 years.  I know I want 2 or 3 more inches of climb in room, for the knees that are not getting any younger.... or more agile...
I am trying to figure out how to make an engine mount that just installs the mount and engine in the bay to eliminate the major fight we have getting engines in and out.... it may include the removable frame rail or not... time will tell if I can figure it out. 

I will make all the curved parts and weld them to the 24 X 16 rectangular section later. 

Since you are building a new chassis, consider putting the rear engine & drivetrain in a section of the chassis that will break off from the rest in a hard crash. Getting rid of the energy in a heavy component like that will allow the section with the cockpit to come to a safer stop.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stan Back on October 05, 2017, 03:46:29 PM
Is that how the Manta is?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tortoise on October 05, 2017, 04:42:09 PM
Since you are building a new chassis, consider putting the rear engine & drivetrain in a section of the chassis that will break off from the rest in a hard crash. Getting rid of the energy in a heavy component like that will allow the section with the cockpit to come to a safer stop.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

One might think that the mass of the drivetrain, if still firmly attached, would slow the deceleration of the vehicle upon impact, and limit damage to that bag of bones and water inside the roll cage.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: NathanStewart on October 05, 2017, 05:08:19 PM
F=MA.  Reduce the mass and you reduce the force.  I think the benefits of a break away chassis is fairly well understood and adopted in a few different forms of motorsports.

Stainless, Bockscar has always been one of my favorite cars for as long as I could remember - Ben Jordan was an early and great influence on me and my brother.  I'm glad you're bringing it back and hope you can maintain a majority of it's original form.  Looking forward to seeing it out on the salt again.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tortoise on October 05, 2017, 05:45:17 PM
F=MA.  Reduce the mass and you reduce the force. 

F=MA. Reduce the mass and you increase the acceleration. Lighter vehicles are easier on things they run into, but that's not the issue here.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2017, 06:11:10 PM
Is that how the Manta is?

Yes, Stan. My chassis is designed to separate between the rear of the roll cage structure and the chassis members that contain the engine, transaxle, and rear suspension & tires. I like the idea of the heavy stuff bouncing along separately from the part with me in it. In a mid- or rear-engine layout this is feasible; a front engine, not so much.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 05, 2017, 06:14:36 PM
Since you are building a new chassis, consider putting the rear engine & drivetrain in a section of the chassis that will break off from the rest in a hard crash. Getting rid of the energy in a heavy component like that will allow the section with the cockpit to come to a safer stop.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

One might think that the mass of the drivetrain, if still firmly attached, would slow the deceleration of the vehicle upon impact, and limit damage to that bag of bones and water inside the roll cage.

Actually, it is just the opposite- the heavier pieces have more energy; that must be dissipated so they tumble down the course further.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on October 05, 2017, 06:17:34 PM
F=MA.  Reduce the mass and you reduce the force.  I think the benefits of a break away chassis is fairly well understood and adopted in a few different forms of motorsports.

Stainless, Bockscar has always been one of my favorite cars for as long as I could remember - Ben Jordan was an early and great influence on me and my brother.  I'm glad you're bringing it back and hope you can maintain a majority of it's original form.  Looking forward to seeing it out on the salt again.

Ben Jordan changed our lives in a very positive and lasting ways :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tortoise on October 05, 2017, 07:44:43 PM
Actually, it is just the opposite- the heavier pieces have more energy; that must be dissipated so they tumble down the course further.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

If they go further, starting from the same speed, then they are decelerating more slowly. Speed doesn't kill, it's the deceleration.

I have a feeling that it's a more nuanced question, and am not entirely convinced by my own argument. You guys may be right, but the case has not been made. A relevant question, which perhaps some of you may be able to answer, is in a fatal accident on the salt, is it more likely caused by deformation of the cage, or subjecting the driver to massive accelerations within an intact cage?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Interested Observer on October 05, 2017, 08:12:23 PM
Since you are embarking on a clean- or near clean-sheet build, one might consider the following:

Some years ago, on the long drive home from Speed Week, a particular team fell to discussing the various vehicle configurations then extant on the salt.  In due course Jim Feuling’s streamliner came up for consideration.  Recall, front wheel drive, engine in front of the front axle, necessary bits in the middle, driver in the rear.  This was seen to offer a number of advantages and only one disadvantage (which could be lived with).
   Predominant weight on the driving and steering axle
   CG well in front of the CP
   Ready access to engine and driveline
   Superior driver sightlines
   Possible tapering profile
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on October 05, 2017, 08:48:13 PM
Actually, it is just the opposite- the heavier pieces have more energy; that must be dissipated so they tumble down the course further.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

If they go further, starting from the same speed, then they are decelerating more slowly. Speed doesn't kill, it's the deceleration.

I have a feeling that it's a more nuanced question, and am not entirely convinced by my own argument. You guys may be right, but the case has not been made. A relevant question, which perhaps some of you may be able to answer, is in a fatal accident on the salt, is it more likely caused by deformation of the cage, or subjecting the driver to massive accelerations within an intact cage?

If a roll structure is still in tact after a crash, I would submitt it is sudden deceleration G's that kills. My first encounter with a high profile racer killed by sudden deceleration was Mark Donahue. After a high speed crash into a chain link fence, Mark walked away looking quite normal only to collapse and die within minutes after the crash. I am not sure if I understand exactly the cause but it has to do with sudden deceleration tearing brain connections from the skull. So, anything that can lessen deceleration G's, the better chances are of survival.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on October 05, 2017, 08:50:11 PM
Since you are embarking on a clean- or near clean-sheet build, one might consider the following:
   
   Superior driver sightlines
   


In the Bockscar the motor in the back is about at the drivers sight level
John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 06, 2017, 12:42:28 AM
Nathan, don't worry, you will be able to recognize it when we are done...

We probably won't build it to break apart in a crash... I would be afraid the rough salt might make it come apart prematurely... Besides I'm not that smart  :roll:

IO, semi clean sheet... unfortunately if we made it front engine that minimal sight line we have would become nonexistent....

As the picture shows, the build table is getting closer, all the fixture pieces have been squared, leveled and welded on.... the kiln has been disassembled for new quartz tubes and heating elements.... Yep Jerry, that is some of the non-race related stuff I do to keep the home owner association (Linda) happy. 

With any luck I will get the tube stops cut and fitted tomorrow
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: BHR301 on October 06, 2017, 02:54:54 AM
Question, with a break away chassis wouldn't that leave the cockpit area without a chute?

Bill
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on October 06, 2017, 06:43:39 AM
Question, with a break away chassis wouldn't that leave the cockpit area without a chute?

Bill

Bill, at that point, the chute is useless.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: jacksoni on October 06, 2017, 07:30:04 AM
Question, with a break away chassis wouldn't that leave the cockpit area without a chute?

Bill

Bill, at that point, the chute is useless.

John
I was going to question this as well. Need two chutes, one for the engine, one for the driver and surround........ :roll: :roll: :?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: NathanStewart on October 06, 2017, 02:14:07 PM
F=MA.  Reduce the mass and you reduce the force. 

F=MA. Reduce the mass and you increase the acceleration. Lighter vehicles are easier on things they run into, but that's not the issue here.

Okay, maybe I was lazy with my physics reference but it's about reducing energy.  The more mass and velocity an object has, the more kinetic energy it's going to have.  Having parts shed away during a crash gives the benefit of releasing energy to remove those parts and then reducing the energy of the parts the driver is still attached too.  The driver is going to have momentum and will want to keep moving while the chassis is slamming into the ground.  If you can reduce the chassis's momentum by reducing it's mass, less energy is going to get transferred to the driver.  You highlight this point above.  If a lighter vehicle is "easier" on things they run into then it has the same affect on being easier on those inside the vehicle. 

Bockscar is a fairly small and lightweight car so it's kinetic energy is already going to be much less anyways. 

Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: CNC-Dude on October 06, 2017, 03:20:21 PM
  I am not sure if I understand exactly the cause but it has to do with sudden deceleration tearing brain connections from the skull. So, anything that can lessen deceleration G's, the better chances are of survival.

John
[/quote]

Yes, that and other internal organs continuing to stay in motion when your body is stopped suddenly and tearing loose internally causing exsanguination .
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tortoise on October 06, 2017, 05:58:53 PM
  If a lighter vehicle is "easier" on things they run into then it has the same affect on being easier on those inside the vehicle.

A heavy vehicle at 100 mph hits, say, a house. It goes through 3 walls before the coming to a stop. A lighter vehicle just breaks through the outer wall before coming to a stop. All other things being equal, which vehicle has subjected the driver to higher acceleration?

Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WhizzbangK.C. on October 06, 2017, 06:32:59 PM
 If a lighter vehicle is "easier" on things they run into then it has the same affect on being easier on those inside the vehicle.

A heavy vehicle at 100 mph hits, say, a house. It goes through 3 walls before the coming to a stop. A lighter vehicle just breaks through the outer wall before coming to a stop. All other things being equal, which vehicle has subjected the driver to higher acceleration?



It seems to me that on a good LSR course, there are no houses, or other solid objects, to hit. In this venue the forces generated during an incident mostly result from tangential contact with the ground. The higher the mass of the object involved, the longer it will take to stop, resulting in more impacts. The lighter the mass the quicker the deceleration and the sooner you come to a stop, minimizing the number of hits you take in the process. Think of it this way, would you rather tumble and roll 5 times or 25?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tortoise on October 06, 2017, 07:04:17 PM
It seems to me that on a good LSR course, there are no houses, or other solid objects, to hit. In this venue the forces generated during an incident mostly result from tangential contact with the ground. The higher the mass of the object involved, the longer it will take to stop, resulting in more impacts. The lighter the mass the quicker the deceleration and the sooner you come to a stop, minimizing the number of hits you take in the process. Think of it this way, would you rather tumble and roll 5 times or 25?

That may indeed be correct. My last post addressed only the argument presented by the post I was responding to.

Are post-crash analyses in SCTA events ever made public?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WhizzbangK.C. on October 06, 2017, 08:13:30 PM
It seems to me that on a good LSR course, there are no houses, or other solid objects, to hit. In this venue the forces generated during an incident mostly result from tangential contact with the ground. The higher the mass of the object involved, the longer it will take to stop, resulting in more impacts. The lighter the mass the quicker the deceleration and the sooner you come to a stop, minimizing the number of hits you take in the process. Think of it this way, would you rather tumble and roll 5 times or 25?

That may indeed be correct. My last post addressed only the argument presented by the post I was responding to.

Are post-crash analyses in SCTA events ever made public?

As far as I've been able to see, they do not make the analyses public. Not just the SCTA, but all the sanctioning bodies seem to operate the same way. The only results that the general public can see are the rule changes that come down, and even then they usually don't directly reference the incident that brought about the change. Most times that is pretty obvious from circumstantial evidence, but they rarely state it explicitly.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 06, 2017, 10:42:48 PM
Well guys, this one is planned to be built like the last one... the entire car being a roll cage.  The old car didn't kill us, with any luck, the new one won't either.... The weaker parts of the car bent and broke... every corner of the suspension was broken, torn from the mounts,  and by my guess absorbed energy. 

I think building a weak point in the frame will lead to premature failure in the rough courses we have been experiencing. 
And guys... the engine weighs about the same as the driver.... it ain't a BBC
So if the guys that want their car to break apart are smart enough to know how it is going to wreck so they can make it break when and where they want it to.... more power to them....
I am not that guy.  :cheers:

The table is ready for pipe.... no pic today
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on October 06, 2017, 10:44:28 PM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: PorkPie on October 07, 2017, 03:54:01 AM
it's always from the point of view...

if you be in vehicle which goes 35 mph, your weight is about 150 pounds, and you decelerate in 0,1 second to Zero mph your body mass will became 1,5 ton....now here the seat belt starts to work...in a passenger car the seat belt is so designed that it allowed you to move forward...this increase the time you are moving....means it needs longer that you come to the stop than the vehicle.....and in this way it is reducing your mass...and this will be protecting you to get hurt.

in a LSR vehicle, with the seat belt we using, you became a part of the vehicle....only in the direct direction of the seat belt there is a stretch effect which reduce the stress on the body...sideways there is no movement possible....

now it's depends how you "crash"....pencil roll, this will be never an issue to your body because the deceleration force on your body is very low. if the vehicle start to fly it is totally different...every time the vehicle has a contact with the ground...as a part of the racer...the deceleration moment goes on your body......

if the impact to the ground is a instant stop (albeit for a very short time) your body will create a big mass as I explained with the sudden stop inside of 0,1 seconds....and this is the critical moment.....so long the vehicle is at high speed in the movement....means rolls or fly's...your body is not creating a big mass

a very good example is Stainless Birthday party 2013.....due to this that the streamliner was tumbling over and over...the force on Stainless stayed low...if the streamliner had a longer stop contact on the ground than it could be serious for him.

now to the weight of the vehicle "slowing" down at high speed.....a heavy weight need longer to slow down....at the salt there is nothing we can crash in (except the salt...)...that means in the other hand....the vehicle needs longer to come to the rest......for your body it means more time to decelerate....but this counts only if the vehicle change not his direction or comes to a sudden stop.....means, when the racer stand on his wheels and spin....or pencil rolls into the moving direction.....

all changes from the moving direction into a other direction creates a deceleration effect on your body.....

it will be always a matter of how the racer crash.....and depends on that....have the luck that he does it the right way  

 If a lighter vehicle is "easier" on things they run into then it has the same affect on being easier on those inside the vehicle.

A heavy vehicle at 100 mph hits, say, a house. It goes through 3 walls before the coming to a stop. A lighter vehicle just breaks through the outer wall before coming to a stop. All other things being equal, which vehicle has subjected the driver to higher acceleration?


Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: MAYOMAN on October 07, 2017, 09:09:03 AM
An idea for attenuating the impact of a high speed crash might be to package the driver in a crash structure isolated from the vehicle chassis. In the Ken Carter Lincoln jump car (don’t ask) a complete sub-chassis (?) was suspended within the actual chassis (monocoque) structure by shock absorbing coiled wire rope attachments. These were commercially available hardware items used to protect shock sensitive equipment being transported in containers. The ability of the sub-chassis to move independently of the outer structure absorbs some of the shock. Pork Pie’s analysis shows the value of even tenths of a second in substantially reducing the impact G loads on the driver. This design solution would be a more predictable method of reducing crash impact than a self-destructing chassis.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: MAYOMAN on October 07, 2017, 09:15:51 AM
This wire rope isolator was what I had used. Other designs are commercially available. I hope the photo is here.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: MAYOMAN on October 07, 2017, 09:34:25 AM
An additional advantage of this driver isolation strategy is that it would be omni-directional so you don’t have to plan for a particular crash scenario. Also, it will be continually effective in a multiple impact event. :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 07, 2017, 11:56:15 PM
Dick, I like that idea, but we don't really have room for it.  We are 24 x 16 outside the frame rails.

Speaking of frame rails I cut 2 140 inch ones and put them on the table.  Stops are squared and welded to 24 inches.  These are the bottom rails...  The tube is 1020 ERW .140 wall according to the printing on it. 

Then life jumped in so tomorrow I  will cut some cross pieces. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Freud on October 08, 2017, 12:21:46 PM
Looks like a rotisserie.

Smartest idea imaginable.

Cheaters always prosper.

FREUD
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on October 08, 2017, 04:45:41 PM
My Good Dr. -- is that supposed to be wisdom of a Sage or just musings???
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on October 08, 2017, 07:17:37 PM
Definitely the musings of a wise Sage!  :-D :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 09, 2017, 12:09:16 AM
Definitely the musings of a wise Sage!  :-D :cheers:

Woody, you forgot old... I think he is the oldest guy to ride a motorcycle in competition at Bonneville....

OK, cut a few cross braces, added the crouch belt attach point to one, need to make one more.... for this part I think... Coping with the Mill, straight cuts are easy... space plus 3/4 cut on the saw, then hole saw 3/8 per side. 
I could work faster if I didn't have to think about how I need to change things and help the neighbor fix his mower.

Only tacked the first one so far... still thinking.... can you hear it where you are?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 12, 2017, 12:02:50 PM
Stainless,
Great to see you are building a new Bockscar!!! Looking forward to watching your build and see what ever new modifications you will be incorporating. After running the old car for so many years I am sure you have a long list of "If I every do this again I am going to change (insert long list of changes and new ideas here)" .

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Sumner on October 12, 2017, 03:01:38 PM
.....So if the guys that want their car to break apart are smart enough to know how it is going to wreck so they can make it break when and where they want it to.... more power to them....
I am not that guy.  :cheers:...

I have a feeling most of us are "not that guy".

Great to see you working on the car  :cheers: :cheers:.  Since the last one set so many records, I imagine big changes are not in your plans,

Sumner
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 24, 2017, 11:32:26 PM
Sumner, hopefully I won't do anything that slows it down too much.   :roll:

OK guys, been a little quiet because I was out checking the breweries and distilleries in Little Rock, Memphis, Birmingham, Columbus GA, Orlando, St. Augustine, Savannah and Nashville.... unfortunately I didn't find one in Poplar Bluff.  There are some really good beers being produced out there.... and some tasty craft whiskey.  Corsair in Nashville makes both.  :wink:

Back to business... been cutting and pasting.... only screwed up once, got a little ahead of myself and shortened a main rail before I should have, but no big deal.... it just made it a little harder to square up the back.  I am planning a removable frame rail to make changing engines easier, and maybe even make a mount system that includes the frame rail... we will see.

Spent a lot of time today making sure everything was square before and after tacking... the drivers compartment will be between the 2nd and third set of bars.  So far only the first and second are tacked in.   The back of the drivers compartment needs the top bar coped for the roll bar... so been calculating, and cross checking the numbers on our drawings.  Ideally we would do a 8.438 inch CL radius on the bar, but I don't know anyone with one of those cnc benders that seem to spit pipe in any shape you want it... so I will be looking to see if anyone local has a 7.5 inch radius shoe.  I don't know if anyone even makes an 8...
This will make a lot more room for the helmets, the old cage was a 6.25 CL radius
So here are a couple of pics to see I haven't fixed Linda's kiln yet... waiting on parts  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WhizzbangK.C. on October 25, 2017, 08:03:10 AM
Sumner, hopefully I won't do anything that slows it down too much.   :roll:

OK guys, been a little quiet because I was out checking the breweries and distilleries in Little Rock, Memphis, Birmingham, Columbus GA, Orlando, St. Augustine, Savannah and Nashville.... unfortunately I didn't find one in Poplar Bluff.  There are some really good beers being produced out there.... and some tasty craft whiskey.  Corsair in Nashville makes both.  :wink:

Back to business... been cutting and pasting.... only screwed up once, got a little ahead of myself and shortened a main rail before I should have, but no big deal.... it just made it a little harder to square up the back.  I am planning a removable frame rail to make changing engines easier, and maybe even make a mount system that includes the frame rail... we will see.

Spent a lot of time today making sure everything was square before and after tacking... the drivers compartment will be between the 2nd and third set of bars.  So far only the first and second are tacked in.   The back of the drivers compartment needs the top bar coped for the roll bar... so been calculating, and cross checking the numbers on our drawings.  Ideally we would do a 8.438 inch CL radius on the bar, but I don't know anyone with one of those cnc benders that seem to spit pipe in any shape you want it... so I will be looking to see if anyone local has a 7.5 inch radius shoe.  I don't know if anyone even makes an 8...
This will make a lot more room for the helmets, the old cage was a 6.25 CL radius
So here are a couple of pics to see I haven't fixed Linda's kiln yet... waiting on parts  :-D

For that large radius bend, call Machine Head in Kansas City and talk to Dick, https://machine-head.hub.biz/ . Last time I was down there he had a Baileigh power roller with a full set of dies. One of these https://www.baileigh.com/manual-ring-roller-r-m40 can make any radius you need. He's a great guy and really easy to work with too.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on October 25, 2017, 09:02:52 AM
Hammers, lots of hammers. How would we ever build cars without them. Stainless, I didn't see the one pound. That hammer is an absolute must!

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 25, 2017, 09:10:01 AM
John, so far the soft hammer has been the only one required... the "one pound" is still sitting by the door, hoping to not need it on this project.   :roll:

For the guys that don't understand the use of a one pound hammer.... it is not the weight of the hammer.... it is the one that only requires one pound.....
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 25, 2017, 11:27:25 AM
Stainless;

I had a similar problem when I built my chassis. The roll cage front hoop needed to be bent to follow the profile of the rear edge of the windshield. This was a large, non-constant radius bend. I took two lengths of tubing to an off-road 4x4 fab shop and explained how I thought the bends could be made- make a slight bend, move the tubing forward a bit, and make another slight bend, etc. It worked out just fine and the second length of tubing wasn't needed after all. I made a Masonite template of the inside of the windshield curve and the bender operator followed that curve. It worked out nicely. Maybe you could try the same trick?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on October 25, 2017, 05:10:21 PM
Stainless, my motorized SWAG modified HF tube bender is ready when you are. Use a template like Neil suggests and bend to fit.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on October 26, 2017, 07:48:00 AM
Hammers, lots of hammers. How would we ever build cars without them. Stainless, I didn't see the one pound. That hammer is an absolute must!

John
I prefer calling it a Linear Impact Adjustment Implement. :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Buickguy3 on October 26, 2017, 07:51:43 AM
      This one ought to do the trick.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot0Cxmk2aa4
  Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 26, 2017, 11:00:20 AM
Wow!  :lol:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 26, 2017, 10:21:45 PM
Yep, that's the one nobody has and I can't afford....

OK, here is my concept for the roll cage... just front and back bars, required bracing to follow in pictures or metal... we will see how it works out.  Feel free to comment... I am not a professional car builder....

Just so you know... I didn't draw this, my good friend Ross Powers (MC2032) listened to my description of how I was thinking I wanted to do the bars and put it on paper for me.  This adds about 1/2 inch to the height of the current cage and is about 1.5 inches longer.  I am hoping it makes a little extra room in there for helmet growth.  We will see how this works out.... 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: jacksoni on October 27, 2017, 07:43:50 AM
The half inch higher helps for helmet growth and exit ease, the 1.5" longer makes exit ease worse. With the lay down position, with neck flexed already it makes exit harder. Having built a car with inadequate cage height and a front bar that made it ok to get in, impossible to get out (removed the bar which worked for a while and then the inspectors said "nah, nah") be sure of your measurements and adjustments before cutting and for sure welding anything. But I know you know all this, just sayin.... :dhorse: :cheers: Looking good and will be watching your progress.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 27, 2017, 09:43:38 AM
Jack, thanks... the 1/2 higher is in the hard plan... the deeper cage number will be helmet dependent... our old cage shrunk to being a "how you measure the 3 inch minimum" front clearance... and can you keep your head off the cage during a run.  The rougher salt made it a lot harder. 
We are all getting older, our knees not working as well as they once did.... so the bar at the front of the cage will move about 3 inches.  Of course my plan is to make and tack in the parts except the front bar, and then see where that one needs to go. 
The old cage was very tight in and out, but we never had a bailout problem with anyone that drove.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: PorkPie on October 27, 2017, 10:13:22 AM
it's actually very easy to go in and out....the trick is to slide backwards into the roll cage and opposite to get out....

...and Stainless, what problem you getting....I went out without taking the steering wheel off..... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

a real issue is the space between helmet and roll cage....at rough salt you come very easy in contact with the upper roll cage bow and than the view is gone....so much vibration... and you have to "shorten" your neck to get free of the roll cage and has to keep this position during the run....not very comfortable....OK...the Bockscar was never a comfortable racer....but therefor he was not built.... :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D


Jack, thanks... the 1/2 higher is in the hard plan... the deeper cage number will be helmet dependent... our old cage shrunk to being a "how you measure the 3 inch minimum" front clearance... and can you keep your head off the cage during a run.  The rougher salt made it a lot harder. 
We are all getting older, our knees not working as well as they once did.... so the bar at the front of the cage will move about 3 inches.  Of course my plan is to make and tack in the parts except the front bar, and then see where that one needs to go. 
The old cage was very tight in and out, but we never had a bailout problem with anyone that drove.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 27, 2017, 11:24:26 AM
Yep, that's the one nobody has and I can't afford....

OK, here is my concept for the roll cage... just front and back bars, required bracing to follow in pictures or metal... we will see how it works out.  Feel free to comment... I am not a professional car builder....

Just so you know... I didn't draw this, my good friend Ross Powers (MC2032) listened to my description of how I was thinking I wanted to do the bars and put it on paper for me.  This adds about 1/2 inch to the height of the current cage and is about 1.5 inches longer.  I am hoping it makes a little extra room in there for helmet growth.  We will see how this works out.... 

Why not tie the roll bar into the top tube instead of going all the way to the bottom tube?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Mr. Schimstock on October 27, 2017, 11:51:30 AM
Sharpe Products has a 3D tube bender.   They are located in Wisconsin but shipping couldn't be too bad.  Might be worth sending the a drawing to quote.

http://www.sharpeproducts.com/sharpe-pipe-and-tube-bending-videos.aspx
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: PorkPie on October 27, 2017, 12:15:14 PM
Neil,

the answer is

CREMONA


Yep, that's the one nobody has and I can't afford....

OK, here is my concept for the roll cage... just front and back bars, required bracing to follow in pictures or metal... we will see how it works out.  Feel free to comment... I am not a professional car builder....

Just so you know... I didn't draw this, my good friend Ross Powers (MC2032) listened to my description of how I was thinking I wanted to do the bars and put it on paper for me.  This adds about 1/2 inch to the height of the current cage and is about 1.5 inches longer.  I am hoping it makes a little extra room in there for helmet growth.  We will see how this works out.... 

Why not tie the roll bar into the top tube instead of going all the way to the bottom tube?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 27, 2017, 12:54:20 PM
Thomas;

What is "CREMONA"?  :?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: jdincau on October 27, 2017, 01:54:26 PM
Thomas;

What is "CREMONA"?  :?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremona_diagram
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: PorkPie on October 27, 2017, 02:31:56 PM
CREMONA?

1. this Wikipedia note is maybe 10 percent of what Cremona really is.

2. Cremona is a mathematic rule for frame design.

3. mathematic rule for a compression strut - tension member - reaction and counter reaction
    you got a frame - on one point of the frame you put an energy on - the result - this part of the frame likes to move/escape.
    other parts of the frame are involved into a force reaction...one part of the frame will be length other compressed....
    they all like to escape from that force and finally somewhere the force will "go out" on a other area of the frame...

    simple!

    yes, it is maybe a little bit more complex....but the easiest way to say what happens in a frame construction

4. the base idea behind Cremona is:

    - with the same weight done right to Cremona you can get a double stiff construction as a poor design

    - or with half the weight the same stiffness as the poor design

5. in a combination you can design a frame which is in one area very stiff in an other area very flex

    Jack Costella is here a real master....I don't know if he ever heard from Cremona...I think what he is doing is just the result of thinking outside the box.

6. Cremona is the base mathematic rule behind all crash simulation programs...


Now, why I said to the Bockscar design....the reason for the roll bar design is Cremona.

 - what would be the reaction in the frame design if the roll cage would be only on the top cross member.....

   thinking about the racer rolls sideways, full contact of the top of the roll cage with the ground....if there would be no connection to the bottom cross member the top cross member would be pressed "down" (to the bottom one) and the side wall frame tube would be bend inside and the whole frame system would collapse.

Now the roll cage frame tube is going down to the bottom cross member - same rolling situation - the top and bottom cross member with the connected roll cage tube is creating a very strong frame (rectangular) which can absorb a high power input....the outside frame tubes creating also a strong frame - both - cross frame and main frame combine to more stiffer combination....the compression strut and tension bar in this frame works against the force of touching the ground.....the top cross member will be not bend down and the outside frame tubes will bend not inside.....


The Cremona rule helps to get the members and cross members to the correct position where they work together to create a frame system which pick a high force input without bending......

in the same way you can weaken an frame area so the part will bend and reduce the force on other parts of the frame as also slowing down the deceleration to protect the driver



Sorry, Cremona is tough to explain and it needs you a long time to understand the idea behind....but used the right way it is a fantastic tool to create a racer frame.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 27, 2017, 03:09:57 PM
Wow, learn something new everyday.... but then I drink my coffee black.... Oh wait, that's Cremora  :roll:
OK my original answer is I hope it gives me more room in the cockpit and fit inside the canopy as well as provides strength.  Here are some old frame shots, the front hoop is tough to make at the size it is.. wider will be harder and I don't think stronger to make it the old way.  It interferes with entry and exit, and the braces pinch your arms in... leaving bruises on all including Thomas.
I'm thinking I have the bars attached to the top and bottom rails making it stronger.... did I mention I don't do this stuff for a living...
The old one didn't kill anyone, hoping the new one will last as long and never hurt anyone either.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 27, 2017, 03:18:21 PM
Yep, learn something every day. The only "Cremona" I was familiar with was the violin maker.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: PorkPie on October 27, 2017, 03:33:05 PM
Hope, my explanation is understandable....how Cremona works....and yes, Cremora is the strong way to drink your espresso.....


Yep, learn something every day. The only "Cremona" I was familiar with was the violin maker.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Interested Observer on October 27, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I think Pork Pie has somewhat oversold Cremona.  Classically, it is a graphical technique to determine the loads in the members of a planar truss taking into account the applied loads and locations, the reaction loads and locations, and the geometry of the (proposed) truss design.  It is basically static analysis of the framework.  Once the member loads are determined, that information can be used to size the members for their appropriate tension or compression capacity. 

In the U.S. this is normally simply termed static analysis.  However, it may be that in Europe the Cremona name is used more popularly due to its origination in Italy.

In this day and age, manual analysis of this sort, which is laborious, has been supplanted by Finite Element Analysis programs which, for spaceframes, is an automated version of the same technique but also is more advanced in that it takes into account the elasticity and deflections of the members.   (Which can also be done manually, but is REALLY laborious, iterative, and open to human error.)
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 27, 2017, 08:15:06 PM
IO;

Thanks for the explanation.

Back in the late '60s I built a chassis for a small Corvair-powered Sabel mid-engine sports racer. I used a computer, an IBM 360 Mod 50, to do the stress analysis on the tubular space frame. We had a program called "STRUDL" that was an early structural analysis program. All structural members were defined on punched IBM cards; the stack of cards was about 7" high and the program on this big mainframe ran overnight during unused periods. The output was on fan-fold printer paper that was about 3/4" thick. We've come a long way since then! I think a desktop personal computer could probably do the same job in less time these days.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: PorkPie on October 28, 2017, 02:50:58 AM
IO

just to tell you

FEA is currently the final USE of Cremona and another mathematic rule - STEINER

FEA based on this two rules.......

FEA is nothing other than the name of a Computer Program....it also had could call STUPID CRASH DUMMY....

....because, reading FEA results creates more human error, than making a Cremona calculation by hand and with your mind


I'm working now for more than 30 years with Cremona, Steiner and FEA....the biggest risk is the HUMAN who use this tool..... :roll:




I think Pork Pie has somewhat oversold Cremona.   by Finite Element Analysis programs
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 30, 2017, 02:25:15 PM
The "state of the art" in tube chassis fabrication are off road race trucks. I have attached a pic of a truck chassis being built at the Herbest Brother's shop in Huntington Beach. Note a couple of things: 1. No tube connects to another tube without an additional tube attached such that it will carry any load from the first tube to other parts of the chassis. 2. Look at the tube joints where multiple tubes join together, each tube has "overlap" of the other tubes, not easy to do but it provides the strongest and stiffest welded joint. 3. There are no plate gussets, they are stress risers and an admission that the joint was not properly designed.

Stainless,I realize that this type of frame is pretty far from what you are building for the new Bockcar but you should be able to get some good fabrication ideas from these pics.

Note the pic of the multi tube joint, one part of the coped tube was cut off to be able to install the tube and then re-welded into place to make a perfect joint! Now that is detail.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 07, 2017, 12:33:53 PM
Yep, really nice work... and yep, if I used that much tube there wouldn't be room for a driver.... :roll:
I am back from my wine country trip so I will be back to work on the lakester later today. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on November 08, 2017, 08:26:24 PM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 12, 2017, 09:56:56 PM
I suspect y'all think I've been eating Bon Bons and drinkin' whiskey all day, the truth is not far away....  :roll: but a little progress has been made.  Still looking to bend or get the roll bars bent, searching for the right bending guy, Johnboy is starting to look in Denver, I am checking a guy up by KC next.  I think I want an 8 inch CL radius but maybe I really want 7.5  :|  Need the roll bars soon to keep moving.

Still getting a little done during all the research, search.... and re-search

Added some floor bars made from 1.5 x 1 x .125 wall.  They will get a little triangulation besides the seat back bar.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 12, 2017, 10:10:27 PM
Then the seat got checked... I guess I should run by to see Max, check on his bike progress and borrow his English Wheel to see if I can flatten a couple of the seat panels that seem to have Johnboy's hip and butt prints dimpled in.  Yep he was snugged in tight, but belts stretch a little and let him flop a little.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on November 13, 2017, 09:20:52 PM
Nice clamps under the back of the seat :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on November 13, 2017, 09:27:41 PM
Stainless;

Was your seat 6061-T6? What thickness did you use?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on November 13, 2017, 09:33:25 PM
I think the seat is 5052. Bent and welded :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 13, 2017, 11:10:26 PM
Yea really nice clamps... manna from heaven... they just miraculously showed up in the mail  :cheers:
I think the seat pan is .050 or .063... I moved placement of the frame member to the crouch belt attachment, so the bottom of the pan will also need to be adjusted a little... lot to do before that.  Found JD2 has a 7.5 CL radius die for 1 5/8 tube... may be the new solution, that will be plenty of room compared to the old 6 inch CL cage.  Just have to find someone that has one or someone with a JD2 bender....
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on November 14, 2017, 09:27:58 AM
We have that capability do not have 1 5/8 die I used 1.75" and 2"
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 14, 2017, 02:54:57 PM
I have an Eastwood hydraulic bender 1-5/8 X 8" CL.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on November 15, 2017, 03:15:59 PM
SS  I will work with you on the die if it helps you
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 15, 2017, 10:46:40 PM
I have an Eastwood hydraulic bender 1-5/8 X 8" CL.
  Sid.

OK folks, anyone plan to be traveling the NW corridor I15 at hiway 30 in Idaho toward Denver, Nebraska or Kansas in the very near future... and willing to pick up a bender and drag it toward me?
Sid has offered it up, any help would be appreciated with beer, wine, whiskey and dinner on this end.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 16, 2017, 09:56:37 AM
Floor structure is made and tacked in place except the seat back which requires the rear roll bar before it can be finished.  This is what I think will work and be safe.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 17, 2017, 09:41:27 PM
Well, this is why we post build diary's... one of my team mates disagreed with my last post.... Pork Pie thought I needed a little more structure on the floor, and made a pretty good case... so here is now what I think is a pretty safe and strong floor structure for the car.... well at least until Pork Pie sees it... :|
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on November 17, 2017, 09:57:48 PM
Just a thought...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kLxEoECYL._SL500_SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

...or maybe not.   :mrgreen:

Mike
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Buickguy3 on November 18, 2017, 07:57:02 AM
  If you do everything Porkpie's way you will exceed the weight limit of the tires.  :-D
  Doug [Just kidding, Thomas]  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 18, 2017, 11:46:39 AM
Well this is a driver containment area as well as part of the structure to keep the frame and driver protection in place.  The braced area is where the drivers butt lands and where the lapbelt will end up attached to the main frame rails. 
We started planning the new Bockscar after I went 246... my 228 record was nearly 100 MPH faster than the first record we set back in 1984 with the car.... we knew we were already pushing the safety limits... over the years we added and changed keeping up with the safety within the rules.... but we also were the original builders and always kept in mind how old the car was... and the repairs from past changes and incidents. 
So we are trying to build a car for 250+... The old one stayed together for the 190 experience... a lot of the structure is bent, but nothing broke, our biggest fear that the car was rusting from the inside... at some point, I plan to dissect a few spots to see what we had.  I don't plan to make a lot of the "mistakes" we made, most were correctable.  There were parts of the frame and sub-frame that were drilled and tapped to attach parts, opening those to salt exposure... not our best ideas...  :| but we never expected to be where we are now, back then.
Pork Pie knows what we want to build and how safe we want to build it.  If it weighs in a couple hundred pounds more than the original...
maybe I won't need to put the ballast back in.    :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stan Back on November 18, 2017, 03:11:28 PM
That's no way to talk about your drivers!
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 18, 2017, 07:35:35 PM
 :-o  :-D  :roll:  :cheers:
Thanks Stan.... point taken
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Buickguy3 on November 19, 2017, 09:30:41 AM
    Stainless, I'm glad you are doing this and putting it on here for us to watch. I never miss a chance to give Porkpie a little "dig" but his points are well taken. Safety is his job.
  Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 26, 2017, 10:56:57 AM
Moved the build into the heated part of the shop, not because it is climate controlled, but because that is where the Tig is.  I have 220 out in the other shop, but the plugs are different and I'm to lazy to build an extension cord that will convert them right now. 

I decided to weld in the floor while I wait for the bending die to show up for the roll cage.  Sid, I appreciate the offer to use your bender, but the logistics seem to be a bit difficult.  I ordered a 7.5 CL radius die from JD2 since they were 10% off for Black Friday.  A friend offered to lend me his JD2 Model 3 hydraulic bender, I just need to drive over and get it. 

I started welding in the floor bracing and figured out one thing.... I need to make better tacks with the Mig.  The tacks were lumps that were hard to weld over... I welded the underside... wow is that frame table rotisserie nice... Thanks Sparky   :wink: 
Flipped it back over, cut the remaining tacks off and welded the parts in.  Some of the welds aren't pretty, but I'm not worried about them falling apart.  Note to self... better tacks make it easier

So here are a couple of pics of the fun.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on November 26, 2017, 11:30:50 AM
BC II will be the fourth car built on the table that Skip Higginbotham built  it is handy
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on November 26, 2017, 12:11:07 PM
Stainless;

Better check the size of that rectangular tubing in your floor structure. The inspectors at Speed Week looked askance at the same size tubing that I used in the floor of my chassis. I also had a 7075-T6 stressed panel riveted to the bottom. There needs to be clarification between primary and secondary structural members in the rule book. Some inspectors think that any chassis tubing needs to be 1 3/4" 0.125.

I submitted photos of my bare chassis but so far, no word at all.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 26, 2017, 06:10:30 PM
If it's around the driver it will be considered as part of the roll cage & in this case would be 1-5/8 minimum.
You probably should seek prior approval on that before moving on Mate.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 26, 2017, 07:03:01 PM
The old floor structure was 1 x 1 tube between 1.5 inch frame rails... and about half as much as I am adding here.  I will send an inquiry to Lee Kennedy, but I am not concerned.   There are 1.66 frame members and cross members integrated with the 1.5 x 1 sub-frame floor members.   I finished the floor except for a couple of inches of welding that I can't get to... yet.  So far the car is built a lot tougher and safer than the last one.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 26, 2017, 09:29:14 PM
Would hate to see you get caught out by rule 3.B.1 "minimum 1-5/8 round tubing - including the bottom & rear".
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 27, 2017, 08:39:07 AM
I see what you are saying, but there are 3 larger than 1.625 x .120 cross tubes in the driver protection area on the bottom.  There will be 4 across the back, God only knows how many on the sides and 3 on the top.  Note to Lee going out this morning.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 27, 2017, 10:55:53 AM
Yeah, best to cover your a$$, no pun intended! :-D
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 27, 2017, 06:14:40 PM
Yeah, best to cover your a$$, no pun intended! :-D
  Sid.

Sid, that looks like pun intended to me  :cheers:
Just ordered axle materials (necessary for those of us that live in the boonies) onlinemetals.com has 25% off thru Wednesday.  No I am not pitching products, just helping my fellow racers find material at a reasonable price.  These guys had the best price before 25% off.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Sumner on November 27, 2017, 06:31:31 PM
... onlinemetals.com has 25% off thru Wednesday.  No I am not pitching products, just helping my fellow racers find material at a reasonable price.  These guys had the best price before 25% off.

I get all my aluminum from them, just got a bunch.  I get all my steel from a local shop.  I usually buy full sticks and the guy gives me great prices.  A few years ago when steel went up I wondered so call all the places in Farmington, NM and he was way under them.  For aluminum I do better with onlinemetals.com.

You are moving along quickly.  Thanks for the posts,

Sumner
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 27, 2017, 07:35:06 PM
Sum, I find a lot of my material at the Yard here in Wichita, but no one has 1 & 1.5 x .250 4130 tube around here.  Found one place that had it in their Chicago warehouse for twice the price...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 28, 2017, 05:44:20 PM
Ihaven't been online much lately but the project looks good guys.
Thanks for the inspiration. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 28, 2017, 07:16:28 PM
Stainless,
Did you mean 1.5 inch dia x .25 wall, 4130 tubing? not 1inch x 1.5 inch x .25 wall 4130 tubing? which I don't think is a size that is available.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 28, 2017, 09:03:01 PM
Rex, ordered both 1 x .250 for the spindle holder tube and 1.5 x .250 for the axle. When assembled it will look a little like this... although the locating divots may be in different places since the front end suspension design may change if we eliminate the VW front suspension and go 4 bar.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 07, 2017, 11:33:49 PM
I picked up the JD2 model 3 bender from my friend Eric.... the 7.5 inch CL radius die set showed up, so I made my first bend.  The calculations said start with 57.4 inches of tube... I decided to play it safe and did 60, bent the tube, cut the legs off since there was extra on both and here we are....
I need to cope the bottom of the legs, then the cross bar a little for the hoop and I think I have the back of the hoop ready to weld in.... or at least tack in. 
The bender did a nice job on the bend.  Front hoop next after that...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on December 07, 2017, 11:37:14 PM
Sweet!  :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 08, 2017, 08:51:13 PM
Just for fun, I put the new hoop next to the old hoop so I could see how much more helmet room we have.... I looks like we will be able to move our heads.... going from 6 inch CL radius to 7.5 and planning to be about a 1/2 inch taller.  We will see what we get.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 08, 2017, 09:08:24 PM
I am trying to figure out how I'm going to cope the bottom of the hoop legs to fit the bottom rail.  So far all of my cuts have been with the mill but I can't find a way to hold the hoop to cope the legs, they are too short to clear the mill table support.  I guess I will drop by Max's or Turk's place and borrow a drill press tomorrow.
I did get the top rail coped for the hoop.  As soon as I cope the legs, I can do a little more welding on the frame and get the seat back welded.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on December 09, 2017, 12:25:38 PM
Just for fun, I put the new hoop next to the old hoop so I could see how much more helmet room we have.... I looks like we will be able to move our heads.... going from 6 inch CL radius to 7.5 and planning to be about a 1/2 inch taller.  We will see what we get.
Just don't get a big head over your results!  :-o :-D :-o :-D :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Ron Gibson on December 09, 2017, 01:07:45 PM
I don't supose Stainless stopped to think of it, but a smaller head would give less frontal area and better AERO, and everyody like a little head.

Ron
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 09, 2017, 01:41:49 PM
While a little head is always good, as we all know.... it is the size of the head receptacle that we all have a problem with.... especially when working in tight spaces....

How that for an answer Ron.... enough innuendo or should I try harder  :-D  :cheers:   
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on December 09, 2017, 04:53:40 PM
I was waiting for you to call out the poster a couple back -- a guy named "Woody".   I mean, c'mon, too easy? :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 12, 2017, 11:47:15 PM
Back to building... didn't have to go anywhere to use a drill press, turns out Ross (MC2032) had one sitting around, yep that's it in the background.  Rear hoop is coped at the bottom and tacked in place... Was planning to make 1/2 inch more headroom to the top.... turned out to be 5/8... close enough for me. 
The seat back supports are also tacked in...  although I have a little checking to do before final welding.  I will pop the seat in and do a little seat belt checking.  Right now it looks like I will put the belts outside the supports, that was one of the problems with the original, the belts were really tight on your neck.  Outside puts 8 inches between the belts.  So I need to make some belt structure and figure out an attachment spot.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on December 13, 2017, 07:54:11 AM
SS1 are you guys going to a 9 point system? If so that makes your attachment points simpler in some ways.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on December 13, 2017, 08:00:05 AM
another use for a rotary table
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 13, 2017, 08:54:40 AM
Sparky, We had a 7 point for years before it was mandated for lay down cars.  Not sure where you would put 2 more points... what are the other 2?  I tried google, saw reference to 9 points, but no illustrations or examples.  The belts are running out of room with all the devices.....
Jerry, only 2 copes so far have been done on anything other than the mill.  I did figure out how to do those 2 on the mill, but using the drill press was a lot quicker. I think all the others will also be milled, I like the rotary table clamp idea for the angle cuts. 
I picked up a HF tube notcher... I guess we will see it I use it or if it goes back  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on December 13, 2017, 12:29:17 PM
Stainless;

I used a HF tube notcher to build my roll cage. It worked just fine but it needed to be shimmed a bit to get the axes aligned properly. The key to success is to use a good quality hole saw and a slow speed drill. I found the hole saws from Dewalt, Milwaukee, etc are good while the HF ones are trash. A good cutting oil is, of course, a necessary thing. Getting a drill with a slow enough speed is necessary, too. A 1/2" variable-speed drill will work; I have a two-speed 1/2" pneumatic drill that worked very well. I used a speed of about 200 rpm to cut the tubes.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: bearingburner on December 13, 2017, 02:22:17 PM
I built a notcher using hole saws .Have to get speed of cutter show enough. I used a drill press smallest pulley i could find for motor an largest I could get inside guard on spindle. Bi metalic are the cutters I had the best results with. Finner teeth wotk better. Never tried cutters with abrasive edge but they might work,at least you wouldn't catch a tooth and break it off the cutter.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on December 13, 2017, 03:12:19 PM
A HF notcher will last a whole build if you grease the $hit out of it & run it slow. Before I had the mill I built a jig using a hole hog drill to drive it. Nice & slow with lotsa power. I still use it for quick jobs.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 13, 2017, 11:42:21 PM
working a rethink on the seat bracing after talking to Sparky... maybe run a tube behind the seat... and use that tube to attach shoulder belts. 
Ross came over and we did a little looking with John Goodman's helmet.  The shoulder straps hang through the slots in the seat when you are in position.  Yes, we may need to build another seat before it is all over, but placement of belts will be in the same places as the original. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on December 14, 2017, 03:16:28 AM
Sleep is really overrated. :-P
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 17, 2017, 11:02:15 PM
Why is it old guys seem to be up late into the night....  :roll:

Well Ross and I have been beating around some ideas for the front roll bar... and doing a little sitting in and checking...
the original idea I had has some drawbacks... a little narrow on the arms
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 17, 2017, 11:17:26 PM
Idea 2 shows more possibility... although this one is not the final.... I need to find a smaller radius die for the joggle...  but I think this one shows a lot of promise.  Just needs to start a little higher on the tube, and not be wider than the car  :| .... learned a little about bending on this one.  Yes there will be bracing to the top rail and more tubes on the top, but the one in the middle makes it easy to hold it up. Target angle is 30 degrees. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on December 18, 2017, 04:02:53 AM
why not to the top of the rail and a straight piece between the frame rails?  You could even offset the joint if you wanted a little deflection in the top frame rail in the event of a ahhh sh!% 
Title: Re:
Post by: Frank06 on December 18, 2017, 04:27:06 AM
+1 on going to the top rail.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: mc2032 on December 18, 2017, 05:58:42 AM
If you look at Stainless' avatar pic you can see how the canopy has a flat (horizontal) transition before it meets the vertical side of the car  (approximately 3" on either side).  Stainless and Pork Pie want to keep this horizontal area from the front of the car thru the canopy to the tail section so the roll bars need to be inside of the top bar similar to the second hoop example.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Koncretekid on December 18, 2017, 06:01:10 AM
I know nothing about streamlined cars, but why does the upper frame have to be as high as it is (although I don't really know the actual height)?  It looks like it restricts the height and shape of the bodywork, especially ahead of the driver which determines his sightline (maybe I'm the only one who has problems running over flag stands.) It also looks like it would restrict exiting.  With proper trussing, the height looks as though it could be reduced.
Tom
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: mc2032 on December 18, 2017, 06:23:18 AM
the top rails are 24" outside to outside, the side rails are 16" top to bottom.  the top of the roll bar is apprx 9.5 inches above the top rails.  driving position is almost prone.  so, in positon with a helmet on, your eye level is just above the top rail/top of the body panel.  there is some rake to the car which helps line of sight.  Bob, I hope I am not giving away too many secrets/details.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: PorkPie on December 18, 2017, 06:53:58 AM
the drivers view...you can see through the windshield....1/2 inch deeper you see your toes......with shoe size 11+ you be disqualified to drive the Bockscar.... :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Koncretekid on December 18, 2017, 07:58:09 AM
the drivers view...you can see through the windshield....1/2 inch deeper you see your toes......with shoe size 11+ you be disqualified to drive the Bockscar.... :roll:
Good to know.  My shoe size is 8 so I guess I would qualify although my sight line might be a bit short at 23".
the top rails are 24" outside to outside, the side rails are 16" top to bottom.  the top of the roll bar is apprx 9.5 inches above the top rails.  driving position is almost prone.  so, in positon with a helmet on, your eye level is just above the top rail/top of the body panel.  there is some rake to the car which helps line of sight.  Bob, I hope I am not giving away too many secrets/details.
I only see bottom rails and top rails.  What are the side rails, or are they not there yet?
Tom
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: mc2032 on December 18, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
I should have said top rail to bottom rail common to each vertical side outside dimension is 16".  As the chassis is still in  the assembly phase, I still think of the sides. top and bottom as separate pieces/planes.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Calkins on December 18, 2017, 09:16:43 AM
For reference, this is what the "old" car looked like...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 18, 2017, 10:07:40 AM
OK Kids... a lot of view and discussion since midnight.... Look back at the original pictures if necessary... The rectangle that forms the frame is and will be 24 x 16 inches...  the old roll hoop was 9 inches above the top of the top rail.  To accommodate the growth of helmets I planned 9.5 inches... it actually became 9 5/8ish+,  when I coped it in so I will deal with all that extra frontal area with HP increases in the engines...  :roll:
The flat on the sides of the tunnel are theoretically down force with the rake of the car about 3 inches... I'm not an aero guy, but I'm also not a guy that argues with the success of our original design.  
I wear a size 13.... it will not fit between the bottom and top rail... that's about 12.75 inches for the math challenged....  :-D
Back to the front bar... to the top rail would would be nice... and not totally out of the question.  I need to find a 5.5 x 1.625 JD2 die set to borrow.  I haven't checked yet, but it may be possible to make the bend to the rail or very close to the rail to a vertical.  The goal is to try to keep as much of the front bar out of the limited driver space as possible.
Discussion is ongoing... more to follow  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on December 18, 2017, 12:15:26 PM
I had forgotten the "beverage shelf"  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on December 18, 2017, 12:37:12 PM
What will make this cage or break it is going to be the next few tubes that Stainless installs between the junction of the front roll bar and the upper and lower frame rails. The idea is to establish load paths that will distribute the loads into the main frame rails. I know I will be watching.

Great job Stainless! Keep it up.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 18, 2017, 03:37:56 PM
What will make this cage or break it is going to be the next few tubes that Stainless installs between the junction of the front roll bar and the upper and lower frame rails. The idea is to establish load paths that will distribute the loads into the main frame rails. I know I will be watching.

Great job Stainless! Keep it up.

Rex

All professionals and Mechanical Engineers are welcome to submit sketches of what they think would be best....  8-)   When we built the lakester 33 years ago from our tumbled liner we were within safety standards... the second and third updates to it kept it within standards.... but tightened up the living space.  Hopefully my start from a clean slate will not make it worse  :| Johnboy survived his 190+ MPH tumble... the parts that bent in the old frame were attach points or attached to corners. 
Building a survivable enclosure is again the goal...  :cheers:



Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on December 18, 2017, 04:03:50 PM
At Bonneville I've seen a lot of forward cage structures terminate at the top rail, not something I would do or recommend but the apparently pass tech!
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Calkins on December 18, 2017, 04:07:12 PM
The new Speed Demon cage goes down to the lower frame rail.  The upper frame rail attaches to it.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Calkins on December 18, 2017, 04:13:24 PM
http://speeddemon715.com (http://speeddemon715.com)

(http://fms.smokeyyunick.com/SuperContainer/RawData/SDNews/41_2?width=800&height=800)

(http://fms.smokeyyunick.com/SuperContainer/RawData/SDNews/44_4?width=800&height=800)

(http://fms.smokeyyunick.com/SuperContainer/RawData/SDNews/47_7?width=800&height=800)
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on December 19, 2017, 04:22:42 PM
Stainless,
Here is a pic from the build of the "Brunskilltown Bullet" by DLRA363. Might give some ideas.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on December 22, 2017, 01:23:41 PM
Calkins...Thanks for the link...It looks  like  the inside of that station buck defines the outside of the body...Great idea to file away for use.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Calkins on December 22, 2017, 01:25:38 PM
I was thinking the same thing.  Great Idea!  No wonder that team is so darn fast!
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: jacksoni on December 22, 2017, 01:29:03 PM
At Bonneville I've seen a lot of forward cage structures terminate at the top rail, not something I would do or recommend but the apparently pass tech!
  Sid.
Only with gussets. Looks to me this type of construction is why they are specified.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on December 22, 2017, 02:56:51 PM
I believe the gusset rule was a result of Tom Bryant's crash.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: jacksoni on December 22, 2017, 07:53:13 PM
I believe the gusset rule was a result of Tom Bryant's crash.
  Sid.
When was that? Gussets (generally, with locations not specified) are called for in the oldest rule book I have -1976- and are specified in the locations mentioned above in 1990 (but not 1987, I can't find my '88 and '89 rulebooks) so that specification was added between 87 and 90, FWIW. The drawings in the rule book do show hoops welded to the shoulder rails. I agree, always thought that not the best way. On my liner, the rear hoop was duplicated and integrated with the firewall to "gusset" it and the front had a 1/8" plate welded to and between front and rear hoops and extended down to the shoulder rails.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: desotoman on December 23, 2017, 01:48:50 PM
I believe the gusset rule was a result of Tom Bryant's crash.
  Sid.

If you are talking roll cage gussets, they were mandatory shortly after a Lakester crash at El Mirage. I forget the drivers name but it was a turbo-ed SBC powered car that as I remember threw a rod which in turn broke the starter off the block. Rear tire ran over starter which flipped the car upside down and the lake-bed tore the roll cage completely off of the car. Sadly the driver did not survive.

Tom G.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stan Back on December 23, 2017, 02:06:50 PM
He was a friend of mine, Dick Miller, who had a couple of Fiat dealerships in San Bernardino and Orange counties.  As I remember, the chassis was an ex-dragster one.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: desotoman on December 23, 2017, 02:13:20 PM
He was a friend of mine, Dick Miller, who had a couple of Fiat dealerships in San Bernardino and Orange counties.  As I remember, the chassis was an ex-dragster one.

Thanks Stan. Yes Dick Miller, and yes an ex-dragster is what I remember. I don't remember the exact year but think it was in the mid to late 1980's.

Tom G.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Tman on December 26, 2017, 09:55:10 PM
Been absent for a while. Looking good Stainless and Johnboy!
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 02, 2018, 11:27:07 PM
Have I mentioned how nice the build table is?  I guess if I was a better welder, I could stand on my head, work the pedal with my elbow and lay down perfect beads.... but as we all know, I'm not that guy...
But I am making some progress.  I believe the rear roll bar is all welded in now as well as the frame members it attaches to. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 02, 2018, 11:46:13 PM
OK, if you look that close, you will notice in these pics that the rear roll bar is not all welded in, it is now, just had to finish fitting these parts and remove them prior the welding before I bury something I can't get to. 
This is the seat back support, and likely the seat belt mounts by the time I get it done.  I will make a seat belt mount as a gusset between the lower 1.5 x 1 and the tube.  The seat belt will go over the tube on the outside of the square tubes, making about 7.5 inches between the shoulder belts. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 03, 2018, 04:53:53 PM
Looks great Stainless. Still working a com error on the mill.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 04, 2018, 11:52:48 PM
Prepped all the tubes for welding the seat back, tacked them in place, then threw the seat in to check everything will fit as desired.  I think it will work... see pics

Welded in now, hopefully I will get the seat belt attachment gussets made and in next
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 06, 2018, 11:06:20 AM
Made some gussets that will be the shoulder belt mounts, had to go to dinner and drinking with friends from Seattle that came into town yesterday, so no welding yet.  Probably none today either, they want to do a brewery crawl through Wichita...
but here's the plan in pictorial form.   

You may also notice that I am not a professional Tig weldor, it is not all pretty, but I don't expect it to fall apart.  :|
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 09, 2018, 01:14:44 PM
The seat belt mounts are in... and I threw in a dzus receptacle to help hold the seat in place...   now it is time to get back to work on the front roll structure and the side structures.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 27, 2018, 10:06:29 AM
It may seem like I haven't been doing anything for a couple of weeks but I really have been noodling, experimenting, building parts and confirming with structural advisers that what I want to do will work and be strong.  Pork Pie has been drawing, calculating and correcting me along the way.... guess he doesn't want me to kill him either.  :roll:  :wink:

We finally decided on a plan and started building those parts.  This is the start of that plan.... yes there is a lot of structure to be built.... I have started on the supporting side structures and will post pics of that when I get one side finished.

The helmet has plenty of room, but it may get up to another 1/2 inch (depending on my abilities to get parts made)

I missed getting this up Friday, but I have been coping with getting these tubes in...  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 27, 2018, 10:34:40 AM
I guess this picture is out of sequence, but I need to throw it in here... I did buy a HF tube notcher... I guess it will be going back, I have not used it yet... So far my other notcher has done all the parts that I have ended up using.... I did use the drill press on one of my experiment parts earlier in this thread.  Due to structural strength concerns, I scrapped that one.  

I have spent a lot of time trying to get as much of the cage out of the way as I could... the original car cage interfered with the driver and made entry and exit a chore for our more experience drivers.... (read older  :roll: )
 :cheers: y'all

Edit... yes that is one of the hole saws from the big sale advertised.... or rather advised... on this site last year
They work great
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Dr Goggles on January 28, 2018, 01:32:54 PM
Just read the whole thing in a couple of, er, "sittings". Tremendous work and I cant help but admire your determination.

Some age old questions came up for me, I wont go into them but they reaffirmed my thoughts on cage design.

Loving the story.

Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 28, 2018, 04:26:37 PM
Just read the whole thing in a couple of, er, "sittings". Tremendous work and I cant help but admire your determination.

Some age old questions came up for me, I wont go into them but they reaffirmed my thoughts on cage design.

Loving the story.



Yep... it takes a village... or a village idiot  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on January 29, 2018, 08:48:13 AM
And as an added bonus...You get to tram the head back in on that mill!!  Fun,fun,fun  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 29, 2018, 09:41:18 AM
Would you mind confirming the size of the square box section (seat back supports) and the dimension from outside to outside of same (I am guessing 8" apart - the shoulder harness loops are held that far apart by those supports.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on January 29, 2018, 01:14:24 PM
Stainless,
Great cage design and boy is it hell for strong, exactly what you were planning! Please add a tube diagonal from the lower rail to the intersection of the front roll bar and the top tube, then it would be "perfect"! I am sure you were planning such a tube anyhow. I would suggest that you make the diagonal intersect the top tube at the point where the you have the short horizontal tube that ties the front roll bar to the top rail and then make a saddle style gusset to connect everything to the vertical and upper tail tubes. Great progress and great to watch.

Per you posts on the Aussie thread I take it you are traveling to the salt meet in Aussie land, I am SO envious! We are all expecting lots of pictures and a great report. Have a great time!

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 29, 2018, 02:02:32 PM
Would you mind confirming the size of the square box section (seat back supports) and the dimension from outside to outside of same (I am guessing 8" apart - the shoulder harness loops are held that far apart by those supports.

John, if you are planning to do something like that you will need to get prior approval from SCTA as that rectangular tubing doesn't meet the rule 3.B.1.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 29, 2018, 02:28:18 PM
Alrighty... I had not planned to try to show the sides till I had more parts made, but now I have a question so I will show where I am headed.

First Lemming John, the seat back and floor are built with 1.5 x 1 x .125 square tube.  The seat belts are 7.75 apart.  The original Bockscar belts came together through the seat and pinched our necks... the first modification of that had about 2 inches of space between the belts... as they routed between the seat supports... still pinched the neck... These will come straight over the bar on the outsides of the seat back tubes at about the same width as my neck.

The cage... thanks Rex, strong is where I am trying to go.  Please see pics below... the diagonal is a measuring device, not the tube that will be used.  There will also be a diagonal from the front to the top that front bar where the front hoop attaches.  Too much trouble to put it all back together for the pictures, but everyone should get the idea of where I am going.  

The question... see second pic... when building all of this should I weld in that vertical, then weld in the diagonal. then weld the front vertical or should I assemble it all together and then weld the perimeters to the bottom rail.  I searched the crap out of the internet, looking for that answer, everyone shows finished product where tubes overlap at intersections, but have not found any process pics anywhere.  My first thought is one tube at a time and build forward so each tube has 360 degree welds.  Y'all feel free to chime in and give me a hand here.  

Forgot... Jerry, you need to tram after a big head tilt?  :roll:
Probably will just use the marks till I get all there angle copes finished and I need the level of precision that a well used old Bridgeport can do.... +/- .001ish
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WhizzbangK.C. on January 29, 2018, 03:59:24 PM
Try to get full 360 degree welds on each tube by sequencing your weld/install to accommodate it. It's not always possible to achieve, but try to get as much as you can. That is what they taught us in Airframe and Powerplant school back in the '80s.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 29, 2018, 05:23:49 PM
Try to get full 360 degree welds on each tube by sequencing your weld/install to accommodate it. It's not always possible to achieve, but try to get as much as you can. That is what they taught us in Airframe and Powerplant school back in the '80s.
I totally agree on that one, a point that is missed by many.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 29, 2018, 10:03:34 PM
Try to get full 360 degree welds on each tube by sequencing your weld/install to accommodate it. It's not always possible to achieve, but try to get as much as you can. That is what they taught us in Airframe and Powerplant school back in the '80s.

Whizz, I got my A&P in the 90s, but didn't do the school thing.... thank God no one ever asked me to weld on their airplane.... :-o   
It was my first thought that the tubes should go in one at a time, and there may be a couple of spots that I won't or can't get each one welded 360, but I will try. 
Got the parts made so I can start welding maybe tomorrow... May have to make one more Jig brace to hold the structure in place during welding. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on January 30, 2018, 08:05:30 AM
Nothing is impossible Bob...on a diagonal joint  between two verticle tubes you weld the vert. joints first and then cut ONE end of the dia. tube off on ONE side, about 1" or so...Slip the tube into place and weld the  cut-off part in last.  I have a pic somewhere amongst my cat pics. JB
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WhizzbangK.C. on January 30, 2018, 08:10:56 AM
A trick i just remembered, for dealing with the diagonals. Weld all of your vertical members in without the diagonals installed first to get full 360 on them. Now it seems that you won't be able to get the diagonal members into place. In order to make them go in, cut one side of the fish mouth off of one end of the diagonal member using as thin a kerf as possible. Now it will slide right in and you can weld the cut off piece back once the tube is in place.

another way we were shown to deal with the problem was to cut the diagonal in the middle and then put a splice over the cut once the parts were in, but that method adds a lot of unnecessary weight and should only be used if the first won't work, for instance if other structural members prevent access to the weld the cut piece.

Does that make any sense at all?  :cheers:

Edit: Dammit, I type too slow, you beat me.  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on January 30, 2018, 08:15:43 AM
Voila`
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 30, 2018, 09:56:25 AM
Yea... if my welds looked like that I would have a new career....  :roll: Oh wait, I don't want a new career, I like being paid to not work.... maybe I should have spent my life on welfare  :| ...  not!
Thanks guys, I will probably use that method and put the removed ear on the inside... in my brain it makes that side the weakest, so there will be more than 5 inches of weld and the integral ear holding the tube from outside force..... if the driver exerts enough force to ..... well we won't even talk about that...
I have a lot of re-assembly to do to ensure all this works as advertised... Oh I almost forgot... need to make the structure that goes between the hoops.... then it is on to welding.....
sure seems to be the never ending.... lots to think about to think ahead, not to worry, I am coping  :-D  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on January 30, 2018, 10:00:39 AM
You are coping???...Little early for Friday Bob............... :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 30, 2018, 02:44:51 PM
Yo Jerry... every day is Friday.... or is that Saturday... well always better than Monday....
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WhizzbangK.C. on January 30, 2018, 06:53:23 PM
You are coping???...Little early for Friday Bob............... :cheers:

Of course he's coping. How else would he get those tubes to fit together right?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: NathanStewart on January 31, 2018, 09:58:13 AM
Stainless, something to be aware of is that your 1.5x1 rectangular tubing technically doesn't meet min spec for cage material.  At the Jan SCTA board meeting a rule revision (3.B.1 Roll Cage) was passed that says square or rectangular tubing may be used if both leg dimensions are at least 1.62" and .120 wall.  Your rect tubing has 96% the CSA of 1.625 OD .125 wall tubing so that does bode well but you'll be in for a fight working against a pretty black and white rule.  Just sayin'. I'd make sure that the decision makers know about this ahead of time (now) and not when you show up to run for the first time.  Everything else looks great and I'd hate to see you get dinged on a technicality.   
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 31, 2018, 10:07:26 AM
For someone 'in build' working to the current rule book - how do I find out about pending changes - what do I need to be a member of and how often is that information disseminated to those members?

I seem to recall there is something about membership of something on the SCTA site but it is quite buried and I haven't seen it since (I may have recalled that totally wrong) - is that the right approach?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Ron Gibson on January 31, 2018, 10:45:53 AM
Stainless
 Probably should check with the powers that be. I don't build chassis (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once), but it looks to me that the rectangular bars are "seat and floor supports", not "roll cage". However YMMV.
 Hope you have a great time down under.

Ron
 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 31, 2018, 05:40:33 PM
For someone 'in build' working to the current rule book - how do I find out about pending changes - what do I need to be a member of and how often is that information disseminated to those members?

I seem to recall there is something about membership of something on the SCTA site but it is quite buried and I haven't seen it since (I may have recalled that totally wrong) - is that the right approach?
John, as I said earlier, if you stick to rule 3.B.1. you will not need to get pre-approval.
To run El Mirage you need to be an SCTA club member, to run Bonneville you can be a BNI only member.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Dr Goggles on January 31, 2018, 07:05:37 PM
For someone 'in build' working to the current rule book - how do I find out about pending changes - what do I need to be a member of and how often is that information disseminated to those members?

I seem to recall there is something about membership of something on the SCTA site but it is quite buried and I haven't seen it since (I may have recalled that totally wrong) - is that the right approach?

Well, aren't you and Syd part of the secret society?.... A call every now and then to Steve Davies might be a good idea, he'd be somewhere near the wellspring.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 31, 2018, 08:29:04 PM
There is roll cage 1 5/8 x .120 or larger used in the construction on the roll cage... there are 4 cross tubes in the bottom of the cage, there will be some cross tubes in the upper... as soon as I figure out where they need to be.... The 1.5 x 1 x .125 tubing is used in the seat support and floor support structures.   The old Bockscar used 1 x 1 x .125 in the  floor and seat support structures.... and passed tech about 57 times over the 33 years we raced it.  If necessary I will provide the inspectors with a structural strength analysis.... but I don't think it will be necessary since all  of the cage is 1.625 or larger....
If it makes y'all feel better, think of them as gussets for the cage  :wink:
Since I have not received a reply back from Lee Kennedy, I will send one to Kiwi Steve....
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Ron Gibson on January 31, 2018, 09:52:51 PM
Stainless
I'm on your side.
You do know that "y'all" is singular. You need to say all y'all for it to be plural. :-D :-D :-D

Ron
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 31, 2018, 10:43:54 PM
Stainless
I'm on your side.
You do know that "y'all" is singular. You need to say all y'all for it to be plural. :-D :-D :-D

Ron

Stainless lived in Arkansas and LA long enough to know that. LA is Louisiana, as all y'all know :-D

Johnboy
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 31, 2018, 10:52:43 PM
The reason the wording in 3.B.1. is in bold print is that many people have not realized that the roll cage (1-5/8) includes below & behind the driver & arrived ready to go but failed tech. I know of a few cars that were hauled off to SLC to have tubing welded in under the seat. Cars that have been running for some time might slide through unnoticed but it's unlikely on a new build without pre-approval.
I'm not about to tell anybody how to do it, just point out what SCTA expects you to do.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Mr. Schimstock on February 02, 2018, 11:52:03 AM
I like the cage/roll bar design but have a question on what the plan is for the required gussets between the hoops and the top rail.  Maybe I missed something in the rule book.  Since the front hoop a distance inside the top rail I'm not sure how a flat plate gusset would work.  A tube style could be fit but would likely drive a change in the body profile.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 02, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
Stainless
I'm on your side.
You do know that "y'all" is singular. You need to say all y'all for it to be plural. :-D :-D :-D

Ron

Stainless lived in Arkansas and LA long enough to know that. LA is Louisiana, as all y'all know :-D

Johnboy

Ya.. ya... ya... I lived in the FLA part of FL too.... All y'all that haven't lived in the panhandle may not realize that part of FL is often considered Friggin' Lower Alabama   :roll:

OK so proceeding with the cage building... Verticals welded it, diagonals fitted, and welded... still need to weld the hoop in... things are starting to get tight....
Gussets to the top rail.... The back hoop gets a full gusset to the top rail... it will also be know as the firewall... the front hoop gets a tube gusset to the top rail, it is not welded yet because the front hoop is not welded in yet... Luckily it can still be moved on the vertical to make room for welding around it.
Here's a couple of pics of the process
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 03, 2018, 10:44:54 AM
A little added info for those headed down this path.... I cut one ear off of the diagonal to put it in and then chamfered the cut and re-welded it... the cut needed to be tangent to the bottom of both cuts... and still needed a tap with the soft hammer to move in place.  The squaring magnet held the ear in position to be tacked. 

Hoop welding will probably happen today, although we are doing some work on Ross's bike, making new clip on's to get him a better hand position.

Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 05, 2018, 10:50:38 AM
Welded all but about 3/4 inch of the hoop, going to the welding store this morning to see if they have a #3 long  nozzle to try to get into the tight area.... You know that corner that you paint yourself into... Couldn't see any other option... the little tube braces will also be a challenge.... at least for me...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on February 06, 2018, 10:35:20 AM
Handy little buggers here...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on February 06, 2018, 10:52:01 AM
Welded all but about 3/4 inch of the hoop, going to the welding store this morning to see if they have a #3 long  nozzle to try to get into the tight area.... You know that corner that you paint yourself into... Couldn't see any other option... the little tube braces will also be a challenge.... at least for me...

Stainless, the guys who build headers, and I include myself in that group the odd time use a really large gas lens and nozzle so you can use an absolutely ridiculous stick out on the tungsten. Don't forget to turn up the argon a bit. You'll likely have to go to a real welding supply store to find those items but once you have them you'll find regular uses for them.

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 06, 2018, 11:13:53 AM
Jerry, the parts are made... It is a little tight to finish welding them... thus the rub... The long 3 won't fit in the space between the tubes... so bad planning on my part... when I was mocking it up it looked like it was doable.
I will find a way  :cheers:

PJ, When you say large, do you have a pic of what you are trying to explain to me...  I'm not a pro but I am always willing to learn and try.... I have a Weldcraft 20 water cooled torch on an old Aircrafter 330 tig.
If your're not busy this week I'd be happy to have you drop by to demo....  :roll:  ya I know...  :cheers:
  

edit... hopefully the local Miller store is a good welding supply, they did have long #3 in stock.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on February 06, 2018, 11:36:36 AM
Handy little buggers here...

A stupid question... what are these things?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on February 06, 2018, 12:50:25 PM
Jerry, the parts are made... It is a little tight to finish welding them... thus the rub... The long 3 won't fit in the space between the tubes... so bad planning on my part... when I was mocking it up it looked like it was doable.
I will find a way  :cheers:

PJ, When you say large, do you have a pic of what you are trying to explain to me...  I'm not a pro but I am always willing to learn and try.... I have a Weldcraft 20 water cooled torch on an old Aircrafter 330 tig.
If your're not busy this week I'd be happy to have you drop by to demo....  :roll:  ya I know...  :cheers:
  

edit... hopefully the local Miller store is a good welding supply, they did have long #3 in stock.

I'll go out to the shop a little later and get either pictures or part numbers.

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ronnieroadster on February 06, 2018, 03:20:19 PM
 Kind of old school but wouldn't a stick welder solve the problem for just the hard to reach location?
   
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on February 06, 2018, 03:51:09 PM
Jerry, the parts are made... It is a little tight to finish welding them... thus the rub... The long 3 won't fit in the space between the tubes... so bad planning on my part... when I was mocking it up it looked like it was doable.
I will find a way  :cheers:

PJ, When you say large, do you have a pic of what you are trying to explain to me...  I'm not a pro but I am always willing to learn and try.... I have a Weldcraft 20 water cooled torch on an old Aircrafter 330 tig.
If your're not busy this week I'd be happy to have you drop by to demo....  :roll:  ya I know...  :cheers:
  

edit... hopefully the local Miller store is a good welding supply, they did have long #3 in stock.

Pete


It looks like Miller discontinued the good stuff when they took over Weldcraft. I found a similar setup from aliexpress. It should do the trick. There are pictures in the ad. Good luck!
I'll go out to the shop a little later and get either pictures or part numbers.


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-Welding-Torch-Nozzle-Glass-Cup-Stubby-Collet-Gas-Lens-Insulator-Kit-Set-For-Tig-WP/32817381374.html?src=bing&albch=shopping&acnt=42005546&isdl=y&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&albcp=133757205&albag=5569327719&slnk=&trgt=pla-4585032208264301&plac=&crea=17152878670&netw=o&device=c&mtctp=e&utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=PA-Bing-Tools-CA&utm_content=All&utm_term=large%20gas%20lens%20and%20nozzle&msclkid=62b5b91cd1ea1be1cf92e366f095c225

Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on February 06, 2018, 03:54:04 PM
Ugly Ronnie!  :x :x :evil:

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on February 06, 2018, 04:16:47 PM
The shipping looks stupidly long. I don't know if there's any way to get it speeded up. I know I've ordered stuff from China and had it in just over a week.

Unfortunately this is what happens when some large company takes over another and cuts out the specialty stuff in the name of efficiency.

I've always been a Miller and Weldcraft supporter but sometimes even the good guys can pi$$ a guy off.  :x :x :x

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ronnieroadster on February 06, 2018, 04:53:12 PM
Ugly Ronnie!  :x :x :evil:

Pete

 Well not if your good at it. Picture book welds are possible and strong.    :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on February 06, 2018, 05:20:15 PM
Handy little buggers here...

A stupid question... what are these things?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Some pix here Neil: https://shop.chicagobrand.com/products/123/14pc-Tubing-Snap-Collar-Set
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 06, 2018, 05:29:53 PM
I've built a lot of headers over the years including some snake pits but I tack it all together first then take it apart & fully weld the primaries then put it back together & weld the ends. I never have any welds I can't get to.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on February 06, 2018, 06:12:45 PM
Dennis Murray did the exhaust on the Bockscar. When Stainless and I went to visit him he showed us how he gas welds the inside of the collector. Dennis is a true artist and a good guy to work with.   http://murrayexhaust.com/

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on February 06, 2018, 07:47:43 PM
I've built a lot of headers over the years including some snake pits but I tack it all together first then take it apart & fully weld the primaries then put it back together & weld the ends. I never have any welds I can't get to.
  Sid.

I did the same for years Sid. The welds that look impossible when you start seem to happen toward the finish.  :? :? :roll:

About 15 years ago I spent some time in a shop that specialized in building headers for Indy cars and sports prototypes. That's where I learned about the oversize front ends for tig torches. It makes a big difference in the ease of welding and I always consider easier to be better.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on February 06, 2018, 08:18:17 PM
Stainless,
Not sure what your welding situation is but I have had a number of times when there is a section that I can't get a small lens into and need to do a long "stick out" what I have done is to make a small chamber using card board and racers tape that will enclose the seam that need welding but leave me room to stick in the torch with the tungsten stuck out far enough to make the weld. As Jack says you need to turn up the argon and then I like to strike the arc a couple of times to let the post weld gas flow fill up the chamber and then have at it. Works for me.

The most impressive difficult weld I have ever seen was one on an off road lower front control arm, the guy had to reach inside a section of the control arm and make a weld while looking at it in a mirror! I have enough time trying to weld with my left hand much less using a mirror to see what I am doing.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: krusty on February 07, 2018, 07:12:42 AM
Stainless - My friend Mike "Dog" Furick manufactures the gas lens and cup you need to flood the area to tig with a "stuckout" tig tungsten. Go to his site <DOGFAB.com> and you'll see what PJ and Rex are talking about. Made here in NC by a professional fabricator who supplies a lot of the world's best fabricators. A "Furick Cup" is the standard for getting into tight spots.

vic
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on February 07, 2018, 01:22:21 PM
jeeeez Bob...I cannot believe you would let the completion of one aspect of the build prevent you from buying another tool.............
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 07, 2018, 10:58:50 PM
Jerry, I must refer you to post 1 of this thread... to refresh your slipping memory.... I didn't want to spend half of my retirement building/rebuilding this car... only willing to go 30%.... don't want to cut into my beverage budget.... already have a couple of tools on order, but I am willing to accept non tax deductible donations of dark malt beverages and/or really good whiskey.   Ryes on par with Great Lakes Distillery Repeal Reserve or Menominee Valley Single Batch are always welcome. 
Almost any distilled spirit with a hand written bottle number is completely acceptable.  :roll:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on February 08, 2018, 08:33:01 AM
ahhh....Therein lies the rub...Mrs.Floydjer is much happier w/ me since I ended my intense love affair with alcohol :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on February 08, 2018, 08:39:46 AM
Jerry, I must refer you to post 1 of this thread... to refresh your slipping memory.... I didn't want to spend half of my retirement building/rebuilding this car... only willing to go 30%.... don't want to cut into my beverage budget.... already have a couple of tools on order, but I am willing to accept non tax deductible donations of dark malt beverages and/or really good whiskey.   Ryes on par with Great Lakes Distillery Repeal Reserve or Menominee Valley Single Batch are always welcome. 
Almost any distilled spirit with a hand written bottle number is completely acceptable.  :roll:  :cheers:

Dang, Stainless, your description of libation is more technical than research papers I have been reading lately.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 08, 2018, 05:35:26 PM
Jerry, I try to be a low volume high quality consumer... generally successful with the high quality.....  :roll: 

John, understanding what you like makes it easier to bypass the stuff you don't...  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ATS, Inc on February 12, 2018, 07:50:47 AM
Take a look at these guys, they make everything you might need.
http://www.ckworldwide.com
Hope it helps you, and your car is looking great. I am always in awe of what we landspeed racers are able to build!
Sterling
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 24, 2018, 06:10:14 PM
Well progress is being made, slowly.... I bought a large gas lens, Pyrex nozzle and turned up the gas... I would like to say it really looks pretty, but I won't lie to you.  It is all welded, it will not fall apart. 
The remedy for an ugly weld may not be weld over it with more ugly weld...  :roll:

But it is welded in and the short brace tubes are also welded in... I also added another vertical and diagonal bar going forward since I had them cut.

I guess the next plan will be make the brace bars between the hoops... wanted to have everything welded in there before I block access to the area.  Or I'll keep making the side diagonals and verticals while I think about if anything else goes in there.

So here's a couple of pics just to prove I've been doing more than drinking good whiskey and eating Bon Bons
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 24, 2018, 09:24:57 PM
So.... the frame is starting to get a little heavy when I rotate it to get better position to weld... been using a 2x4 to gain a little advantage... 
Then I started thinking that the flywheel on one end was there for a reason... so I ordered a 10 dollar Bendix from Advance and took it apart for the gear.  Then I noticed the issue that the old one must have had, the hole on the gear end was wallowed out.  I put the stabilizing legs down, pulled the end off, threw it in the mill and re-sized the hole with a bushing... Made a shaft to weld the gear to, then tried to decide what I should put on the other end to drive it.  Remembered I had a 1/2 to 3/8 drive that twisted off... and I saved the pieces since it was a Craftsman.... Probably voided any chance of returning it when I welded it to the end of the shaft.   :roll:
Way easier to rotate the frame on the build table now.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 01, 2018, 10:51:54 PM
I really like the rotisserie drive, it has made life a lot easier.... well at least it has made moving the frame around for welding a lot easier.  So I made and welded in another batch of tubes... I'm sure there is probably a way to calculate exactly what the tube lengths and angles are... but I am not doing it that way.... I am using my HF protractor and a flat bar to get the angle, then measuring between the verticals on the angle and chop until it fits...  :|  Keeping both sides identical is a little troublesome, but so far I'm staying within the width of the line on the tape.
So here are the next tubes in, one more section to finish, then I guess I'll do the hoop braces... still thinking about anything that needs done in there before I make it really hard to get in.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: salt27 on March 02, 2018, 12:50:42 AM
Hey, it looks like you have some help.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on March 02, 2018, 04:16:03 AM
........still thinking about anything that needs done in there before I make it really hard to get in.

If I recall you had a 24" x 16" OD 'fuselage' - its already hard to get in  :-D

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 02, 2018, 09:05:04 AM
Don, that's Ross Powers (MC2032), he is over a couple of times a week to help, have a beer, bring his latest home brew to sample, borrow the mill or lathe or deliver drawings of ideas we discussed over the aforementioned beers.... His cad drawings helped me develop the front roll hoop, getting a lot of it out of the already tight cockpit. 

LMJ, Yea, it is not a big car... although it will be 5/8 of an inch taller than the original  :roll: but when you are building yours it will be easy to understand... when you need to add something after you make it very hard to get to the spot to weld.  So far I've managed to not weld myself into a corner... except for the unavoidable design requirements. 
If I could stand on my head... actuate the pedal by squeezing it between my knees and make great welds, then I wouldn't worry  :roll:
I guess that's why these take time.... at least for me  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: salt27 on March 02, 2018, 10:01:45 AM
I thought it looked like Ross.

Seems as if he had darker hair the last time I saw him, did he color it to match mine?    :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 02, 2018, 10:22:45 AM
I have T5, brighter than the sun, lights in the shop.... Oh, I've never seen hair on Ross, so color is unknown.... but I usually wear a welding helmet to cut down on the reflection  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on March 02, 2018, 12:42:56 PM
I switched mine out for G.E "Daylight"...Holy cow what a change.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on March 02, 2018, 12:53:03 PM
It helps to paint your shop floor a bright color; it reflects the light and makes it brighter in the shop. It makes it easier to find small parts that drop on the floor, too. I coated my floor with an epoxy primer over the concrete and then used a Sherwin-Williams industrial urethane coating- bright yellow. It has held up very well.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on March 02, 2018, 12:54:05 PM
You can now buy LED direct replacements for T5 and T 8, and you can get them in color choices, like 6500K for daylight/growing and warmer for stuff like the playroom. :roll:  They use a bit more than half the energy that fluorescents do.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on March 02, 2018, 12:55:09 PM
Neil,
I like the bright yellow idea, wish I would have thought of that!!! Mine is a light gray.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on March 02, 2018, 04:11:04 PM
Stainless;

Yellow might not be the choice of some people but it works very well for me. It brightened the shop by at least 50%.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 02, 2018, 10:21:57 PM
Well guys the walls are white, the lights are bright... if it was any brighter in the shop I would have to wear shades....
Not much viewable progress today, maybe tomorrow  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 04, 2018, 10:35:50 PM
The drivers area is framed, everything in the cage is in there except the brace bars between the hoops.  Not welding those in until I have the seat fitted and the dzus fastener receptacles in for that part of the seat... no need to deny myself easy access. 
Of course I will be otherwise engaged for the next 3 weeks.... I don't seem to be able to get the elves in the forest to travel this far to work... Yes Dorthy we are in Kansas... the home of NO National Forests.... so no elves....
Here are the last 3 for a while
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 27, 2018, 10:24:52 AM
Well it is time to keep going, I fitted the seat, and determined I could make and tack in the brace bars for the hoops.... it was a challenge to make the first  one.... every time I shortened it to fit as I moved it up, the angle changed and needed to be re-cut... of course the second one was easier, I knew the length and the final angles, so it only needed a .031 adjustment... why, because I left myself room for error.... just in case

Then I popped the helmet in on a spring board to ensure it would not go through the bars.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 27, 2018, 10:43:29 AM
OK, now that I know the helmet stops at the bars I jumped in and checked sight lines, they were much better than the old.... I think...
Looked for a way to look at clearances since the selfies didn't work for Subaru...
Yes, there will be roll bar padding, yes the entire hoop will also be capped and padded like the old one... I may need to add a lateral restraint... I don't think so, but we will see
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on March 27, 2018, 10:51:59 AM
In Re:  Selfies while building the car/cage.

Who'd have thunk that you'd need to learn a reverse fire drill -- set the camera timer and see how quickly you can get INTO the car. :roll: :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on March 27, 2018, 11:55:00 AM
Do the hoop connector tubes meet the 1-5/8" rule?
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: handyguy on March 27, 2018, 02:28:05 PM
Will your helmet go out side  of cage at any angle , openings look a little large ??  STEVE
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 29, 2018, 12:04:34 PM
Do the hoop connector tubes meet the 1-5/8" rule?
  Sid.

Of course... the hoops and connectors are 1.625 x .120 DOM, the frame rails are 1.66 x .134 ERW, all of the bracing in these roll structures are a mix of those 2 sizes.  The floor support structures between the aforementioned  roll cage pieces are 1.5 x 1 x .120.

Will your helmet go out side  of cage at any angle , openings look a little large ??  STEVE

Not out the sides or back... even without the .090 plating that will be welded in before it is all over... it will fit out the front of course... otherwise you couldn't get in or out  :roll: 

Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 03, 2018, 10:13:25 PM
Roll cage is about the same as it was... have not welded in the hoop supports in case they get in the way... yep I will need to sooner or later.... right now opting for later. 
I have started thinking about the front and rear suspension and what I will do there.  The front I think I have decided on doing a 4 bar, with a watts link... I have some material ordered to make the  frame connectors, the stuff I ordered for the bars showed up so I started doing a little design in hand.  I found a little scrap to help out, so this is part of what I am thinking.  The suspension will be coil-over, still thinking about how that works but I'm aiming for standing the shocks in the front corners and using a rocker and link from the axle to them.
Here's my 4 link thoughts... and thinking pieces....  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 04, 2018, 10:24:27 AM
Also working toward a rear suspension... to get back there I had to get the removable frame member in.  This will make engine installation and removal considerably easier since all of our engines are wider than the space between the insides of the frame.   :-o
Hoping to get metal tomorrow...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on April 04, 2018, 10:58:23 AM
Is there any way you can show us how you designed the ends of the removable piece Stainless. I'd like to see it apart so I understand how it fits together.  :? :? :?

Thanks.

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: jdincau on April 04, 2018, 12:36:07 PM
Here are some,
https://www.bustedknuckleoffroad.com/Interlocking-Tube-Clamps-Interlocking-tube-clamp.htm
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 04, 2018, 08:14:54 PM
PJ, I was going to make some until I found them from kartek for $36 each

https://www.kartek.com/parts/interlocking-weld-in-tube-clamp-connector-coupler-for-1-58-diameter-0120-wall-tubing.html

When it is all final welded I hope they work like I want them to.  I welded the ends on the center tube and the other ends are tacked in as seen in the pic. 
I also bought a steering wheel disconnect from them to replace the homemade one we have been using since 1984... the new one is a lot tighter
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 04, 2018, 08:22:01 PM
I liked the ones Jim showed... didn't come in 1 5/8...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on April 04, 2018, 09:14:05 PM
I like what you got. I sure cant build them for that sort of money and they're probably more accurate than I'd build on manual equipment.

Thanks.

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 04, 2018, 10:58:57 PM
PJ, Exactly the conclusion I came to... They fit perfectly in the 1 5/8 x .125 tube but were a loose in the 1.66 x .134 frame tubes... I used the 1 5/8 for the removable member and then added 3 weld dots to the part that sticks in the tube and hit them with the lathe to make the fit in the larger tube tight. 

Looks like my Metal might not be here till Friday... and possibly Monday.  Back to thinking about the front suspension and the shocks. 
After I finish the welding  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 08, 2018, 09:54:30 PM
Welding in the back finished... tubes pulled down on the short open ends about 1/16... not unexpected but it means I till need to do a little heat tweaking back there at some point.  The removable bar got very tight... but I suspect the tube gussets/braces I add to stiffen that area up when the tube is out will tweak that area so we will see what we end up with.  My bet... when I'm done it will be fine.

Next thing, started thinking about the rear axle, checked to see if it was tweaked, so far it seems to be fine, although I have not put the dial indicator on it, it looks like it rolls straight.  However the brake disc has a kink in it... so we will need to make another one of those. 
No you can't really tell unless you put it on a flat surface...  :|
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 08, 2018, 10:25:23 PM
Back to front suspension.  The 1 x 2 x .188 wall I ordered showed up so I started working on the parts the 4 bar rod ends attach to.  Got one finished, the other needs a little more work to get it in.  If we had not had company over for dinner and if I had not had several beers, I would have pictures of both of them in and connected to the axle....
but Ross (MC2032) brought over a couple of beers... Spiced Bock and Kansas Hi-Test Stout..... and then we decided we should have a Dragons Milk to compare to the Hi-Test.... so much for working on the car....
After Ross and Billy left I decided I should try Fordboy's Jack and Dr Pepper... but I didn't have any Jack so I substituted 16 year old Bushmills Irish Whiskey.... then I couldn't bring myself to mix that with anything so I showed it the DP can and you know what... Fordboy was right... it is really good...  :-o  :roll:
But I digress... here's where I think I'm headed  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: fordboy628 on April 09, 2018, 12:29:18 AM
Back to front suspension.  The 1 x 2 x .188 wall I ordered showed up so I started working on the parts the 4 bar rod ends attach to.  Got one finished, the other needs a little more work to get it in.  If we had not had company over for dinner and if I had not had several beers, I would have pictures of both of them in and connected to the axle....
but Ross (MC2032) brought over a couple of beers... Spiced Bock and Kansas Hi-Test Stout..... and then we decided we should have a Dragons Milk to compare to the Hi-Test.... so much for working on the car....
After Ross and Billy left I decided I should try Fordboy's Jack and Dr Pepper... but I didn't have any Jack so I substituted 16 year old Bushmills Irish Whiskey.... then I couldn't bring myself to mix that with anything so I showed it the DP can and you know what... Fordboy was right... it is really good...  :-o  :roll:
But I digress... here's where I think I'm headed  :cheers:


I "LOVE IT" when "a plan comes together"! ! !

Showed the "Jack" to the Dr. P bottle.    IT WAS BETTER than my original concoction! !

I think this is what they mean by "research and development" . . . . . .   :wink:
 :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 09, 2018, 01:23:54 PM
Stainless,
So glad to hear that you did not mix the DP with the Bushmills, I am a real Teeling fan myself and could not bear to mix it with anything more than a very little water. Good choice!!!

Car is looking great and getting something done every day makes it happen. Keep it up!

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 09, 2018, 11:24:09 PM
Tonight's fare is Herman Marshall small batch Texas Whiskey.... I don't drink it straight... I put an ice cube in it and sip it while I type... so if.... well you know... that's why  :wink:

So I started where I left off and I got the other front suspension support fitted squared everything up and tacked both in.  Then I looked at my options for coil-overs and how I'm going to make this new front suspension work.  I also looked at my options for a watts setup.  After boiling my brain I switched the parts around and noodled some more.  Here are a few pics of where the front is headed.

Then Ross called, and asked if I was putting drains in so salt won't collect and rust the bottom.... untacked them and milled some drain holes in the bottom at the back, the front was fine.  It is tacked back in.  Lesson for today... when tacking in, be careful how you tack and... remember where we are racing. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 09, 2018, 11:39:57 PM
Well the front suspension overheated my brain, so I made one of the support pieces for the rear... yes before I came in and consulted Herman Marshall on what to do next.... The new suspension part of this is the tough part... mostly because I want the shocks and springs to work... with the salt condition we now have.


Edit... forgot... Rex, I have Teeling... it is also one of my in stock Irish Whiskeys... as is 12 Year old Tullamore Dew
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on April 10, 2018, 12:34:51 AM
I just like it that the red hammer makes it into most of the pictures. Dead blow hammers are invaluable in tightly assembling a race car chassis.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on April 10, 2018, 10:59:23 AM
that's just color for the photos  :-D  to keep them from being bland---like good whiskey and a DP can  :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 10, 2018, 10:04:44 PM
PJ and Sparky, you won't see the hammer in today's pics, I actually pulled it out... since the levels were already in there... I didn't need the hammer for color  :-D  But you are right, I am wearing that bugger out getting the parts in and moved where they belong.   
John Goodman (GGL205 not the actor that wants to play Fordboy) stopped by today to help me think about suspension... bounced a few ideas around (no pun intended  :roll:) and I have a direction to go... I think... he also has some road racing leftovers I will pick up tomorrow to help me think and plan... to go with the Koni coil-overs he donated to the project months ago. 

These are not tacked yet, I will pull these out and clean the tubes for welding.  I think they are in the correct spot, but I need to reassemble the rear axle to confirm the measurements.  But they are made and almost ready. 
Time to head to the cabinet to see what I might sip while I peruse other threads  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 12, 2018, 11:34:01 PM
Back to the front.... I am looking to use some type of rocker arraignment for the front suspension... put the shock in the front corner, a 2:1 or so rocker to a link on the front axle.  I've been trying to figure out how I would attach the link to the axle... Well, I think I found it... I made a couple of stainless spacers to move the 1/2" SHCS out of its countersink, added the rod end... it looks like I will need a longer Allen, but i think this is the way I will go.
The bar across the front is where I plan to mount a Watts link.... I have a thinking piece, I'll clamp in on there tomorrow and take a pic if I remember. 
Just need to make more parts....
Time for a couple fingers of 23 year old Kirk and Sweeney Rum... no DP... this is the good stuff  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: bones on April 13, 2018, 04:13:30 AM
Hey Stainless

Why not have a look at some rear suspension links from a bike and the shocks.
I think the ratios are usually higher than 2:1 though.

cheers   Bones
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on April 13, 2018, 08:05:57 AM
Oooh...aaah....damascening  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 13, 2018, 10:36:12 AM
Bones, I looked there early, maybe it is time to revisit bike parts... I have some around here somewhere
 :roll:
Jerry, we've always been a mix of bike and car parts.... if you had seen the car in 1984 you would have found the engine, frame (cut off above the top motor mount) and stock swingarm of a 1983 Honda 750 Intercepter hiding (welded) in there.  We mounted pillow blocks on the arm and ran a straight axle... 2 wheels were late 70s Yamaha fronts, and the rears were Honda I think... cause we had one already... the wreck was a front crash. The last of the Honda frame was removed about 2002 when we switched from the Kawasaki ZX-11 to the Suzuki Hayabusa for our H class motor.... the 11 was maxed out at 65 inches... the Busa went all the way to 90...
Started this quest in 1984 running against a low 130's record...  only have 2 records about a 100 MPH faster after all this time...  :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on April 13, 2018, 10:57:06 AM
Oooh...aaah....damascening  :cheers:

I think it is actually "engine turning". "Damascene" is hammering gold wire into engraved grooves in the base metal- an art highly developed in Japan.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 13, 2018, 12:33:04 PM
Stainless,
Only one word describes your front end setup: STOUT!!!! I think you have a great idea about using the top bolt for the shock rocker mount. This is the time that I get out the tape measure and tape some vellum on my drafting board, I just can't do this stuff without some sort of drawing to go by. I like SHCS also but our car was pretty much MS/AN hardware when we got it and Duke wanted to stay with them so lots of time on AircraftSpruce web site.

Sure interesting to see the progress of your car from its' original shape in 84. Continuous change and progress.

Looking good!

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 13, 2018, 04:35:22 PM
Oooh...aaah....damascening  :cheers:

I think it is actually "engine turning". "Damascene" is hammering gold wire into engraved grooves in the base metal- an art highly developed in Japan.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil, I thought Jerry was metaphorically refering to mixing of metals... motorcycle and automobile  :|
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on April 13, 2018, 04:39:20 PM
Ahh so!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Dr Goggles on April 13, 2018, 04:52:21 PM
Don't forget you can only drink that Starward with Johnboy and, I'm pretty sure frying is the accepted way to deal with brains, not boiling, crumb them first. :wink:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 13, 2018, 05:23:54 PM
Rex, over the years it evolved a lot... the first edition was a 10 day thrash converting the liner to the lakester.  
I picked up some grade 8's that might replace the SHCS at the top of the axle mount if the design remains, we will see.  The mounts were originally flipped around and the fastener needed to be in a counter-bore for clearance.
I usually need to hold hardware, look at the relationships, get an idea, throw that one out and get another.... then I sketch something.  Using the top bolt was a better thought than adding a threaded hole...
I'm still contemplating the where and how....

Doc, not to worry, it is in Denver with Johnboy... I am hoping he brings it here and helps me with the car sometime.... I'm sure he is not drinking it since you specified we had to drink it in each others company.  With any luck he is machining some of the parts he broke   :| :|  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 13, 2018, 11:50:10 PM
Well today was a re-look at stuff day....
I checked the bike suspension rocker... nope it is still the wrong angles and not going to work...  :-(
The grade 8's I picked up are actually 8.2's but in looking up their grade to be sure they popped up on the list of bolts that have been counterfeited...  :x I got them at The Yard, they probably came from Boeing, they probably are real.... they are a 1/4 shorter than I really want, but I'm not sure I can get 1/2-13 x 3 3/4 so I'll look for bolts again tomorrow.
I did get a picture of the "thinking piece" for the Watts link... This one is probably not it because it has tapers in the ends for tie rods and not equal length from the center... but it does help with the idea of where I think I'm headed.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on April 14, 2018, 12:09:27 AM
Stainless;

Maybe you can use a reduced-height locknut since the bolt is in shear.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: fordboy628 on April 14, 2018, 06:09:38 AM
Stainless,

In a lot of situations I have taken a longer bolt than what was required, but with the correct shank length, and have cut off the excess threaded portion.    Mostly this was done when bolts were in shear.    NEVER had a problem.    In fact, using the correct shank length always works out better for the mounting tabs.    I've even redrilled cotter pin holes in shortened bolts, etc.    I always clean up the cut end on a lathe.

And I echo Neil about shear mounted fasteners.    All that is needed is a reduced height locknut.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WhizzbangK.C. on April 14, 2018, 08:10:20 AM
Stainless,

In a lot of situations I have taken a longer bolt than what was required, but with the correct shank length, and have cut off the excess threaded portion.    Mostly this was done when bolts were in shear.    NEVER had a problem.    In fact, using the correct shank length always works out better for the mounting tabs.    I've even redrilled cotter pin holes in shortened bolts, etc.    I always clean up the cut end on a lathe.

And I echo Neil about shear mounted fasteners.    All that is needed is a reduced height locknut.

 :cheers:
Fordboy

I agree, especially in a double shear mounting it is very important that the shank engage the mounts on both sides. Trimming the threaded end down does not affect the joint capacity at all, but having threads bearing on one side of the mount does.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 14, 2018, 11:17:57 PM
Picked up a couple of 4 inch grade 8's, had to add 1 AN spacer washer between the rod end and the capture washer to make things fit perfectly.  The threads were already counterbored so the bolt grip was sunk inside for double shear on grip, not on threads. The bolt was OK without the washer, but I think the extra .040 will keep the threads from getting too close to the bottom... and it allows a little more freedom for the rod end. 
Continued toward suspension for the front... made the support structure pieces for the fire bottles... they may double for shock supports as well.   Have to accommodate everything that goes up there without getting things in the way. 
I also played with some cardboard parts and it looks like the shock can't move 2:1, not enough throw,  but 1.8 looks doable.  These pics are the result of today's thinking, the shock just short of full extension when the axle bottoms on the rubber stops that aren't there yet...  :-D  It looks like the rocker can be a straight piece... The bearing housing can be made from leftover 1.5 x .250 wall axle stock... I may need to find .125 x 2 steel to cut the pieces from.... I have some bearings coming...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 15, 2018, 09:44:47 PM
Started thinking about the rocker again, decided to make a pattern... one a little more durable than the cardboard pattern I was playing with.  The rocker should be 1.66:1 or so... I think...  :|  
The first one was fairly easy... all things considered... just need to do a little more shape work on the ends, and make 3 more just like it.  :-o  The bearings will be .5 x 1.125 x .375, I am boring a tube for the bearings... trying to decide how I will retain the bearings that will go in the tube... I guess just a light press should do it, they will be confined by the mount and bolt... with a spacer between them.
The thicker part under the center hole is the bottom.  I'll probably make the others tomorrow while I wait for parts and hardware to show up.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on April 15, 2018, 09:57:03 PM
Stainless;

To retain that bearing within the tube, cut two short pieces of thinwall tubing that are a slip-fit inside the larger tubing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 16, 2018, 11:48:15 PM
In the middle of the night it occurred to me I needed to make the rockers differently  :| Locating the rocker on the bearing housing would be way easier if I cut a shoulder on the housing... the center hole needs to be about 1 3/8 instead of 1.5... I can live with one of them at 1.5  :wink:
I also need to send a note to Koni to ask about about the 1/2 inch ball ends available for the shocks... the ones that are in there are narrower than the shock housing, they had a reducer to 3/8 that extended the ball past the housing.  I can build spacers if I need to, but since the shocks need to be refreshed anyway, and the ball ends are pretty much worn out, I hope they have the ones I want. 
So the rockers are built, I match milled them in pairs... I can build the shock mounts, then I need parts.... and hardware that I am waiting for....
Or I swap back to the rear suspension  :-D
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: bones on April 17, 2018, 04:49:44 AM
Stainless

The rubber bump stop needs to be tapered.
If for some reason you use the full suspension travel it will be effectively rigid when it hits the flat bump stop.
 
   Bones
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: grumm441 on April 17, 2018, 06:03:55 AM
Hey Stainless
At Lake G you handed me some side cutters for cutting cable ties flush
Were they yours? I thought they came from Goggles toolbox , so I gave them back to him
He had no idea about them
G
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 17, 2018, 09:42:14 AM
Bones, that piece is fairly mushy, and crumbly... I cut the bump stop that was in there down so I could estimate travel... There is a lot to do to those shocks before they get used... hopefully they will never find that part of the travel... in the original it only found those areas during special events  :-o the last one sheared the shock bolts in the front, and broke one the shock attach points off the shocks in the rear  :cry:

G... I'll bet Johnboy must have given you those.... we are easily confused  :roll:.... for each other as well  :-D... he usually carries a set of red mini-dikes for tie cutting when he goes racing...
consider them a donation to the cause...  :cheers:

Hoping Brown Santa shows up today with the stuff I can't get locally...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on April 17, 2018, 01:12:56 PM
Yo Bob...I added flood coolant to my Index 745...Whole new world...Cutters stay cold to the touch.  Carry on, JB
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 17, 2018, 04:31:16 PM
Jerry, I have spray... it makes a bigger mess than a little oil and an acid brush... but I guess it is easier on the tools  :|  The chips didn't look that blue  :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: grumm441 on April 17, 2018, 05:09:45 PM
Brown Santa turned up at my work on monday, and it didn't cost me anything
G
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 17, 2018, 11:10:48 PM
Did a little today, spent a lot of time on the internet shopping for my replacement HVAC, talked on the phone to a couple of places... then slipped into race parts shopping... or buying  :roll: probably describes it better. 
Did a little on the car, made a center section for a shock rocker, but I really need Brown Santa to bring my bearings before I bore the bearing holes.  My shocks need new spherical bearings and it took a while to track down where I can get those.  Calling Koni soon to talk about checking and/or overhauling these shocks... While I was out there I found new ones for 600 Euros each in one of those countries that deal in Euros... plus Vat... I think that's European for tax  :-D
Here's a rocker almost ready to weld... yes I will add a plate/stiffener between the rocker pieces... got to bore the bearing holes first... my little lathe will not swing it welded together.
 :cheers:

Having a 9 year old Costa Rican Rum while I type.... no DP with this one either  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 18, 2018, 08:13:36 PM
Well Brown Santa arrived... with stuff other than the bearings I would like to have... but it is all needed so I will do other things that need to be done...

Fred and Sophi helped me haul it to the shop  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on April 19, 2018, 07:41:31 AM
Which one is Fred???  I had a cat named Fred...She was a girl..Named for Fred Duesenberg...I went to flood coolant to eliminate the smoke from oil/ brush method..turns out the smoke was from my cigar :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on April 19, 2018, 08:17:49 AM
Jerry, that picture brings back the thought -- whatever happened to Tony and his avatars?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on April 19, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
I pondered that as well Slim...But at our advanced age ? It`s best not to question.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 19, 2018, 09:03:53 AM
Which one is Fred???  I had a cat named Fred...She was a girl..Named for Fred Duesenberg...I went to flood coolant to eliminate the smoke from oil/ brush method..turns out the smoke was from my cigar :cheers:

Jerry, Fred is the UPS colored one.... Sophi is a girl... the doormat explains them...
We were looking for a companion for Sophi 8 years ago... Linda dreamed about a dog named Fred... couple of days later Fred picked us to take him home from the "rescue vet"   
He is a PITA  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on April 19, 2018, 09:28:46 AM

Fred and Sophi helped me haul it to the shop  :cheers:

At least you have willing minions.  Stewart and Eastwood aren't worth their weight in kibble.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/861/26691942367_4039c68b9a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GEFbwT)stewartandeastwood (https://flic.kr/p/GEFbwT) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on April 19, 2018, 10:26:25 AM
Doc isn't much help in the shop either, but he does bark to let me know that the UPS man is here.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 21, 2018, 10:46:41 PM
The bearings showed up Friday... at about the same time Wichita's newest brewery, Nortons Brewing Company opened their doors.... needless to say I went downtown to support my friend Dan with his new business...  :wink:
Poke the Bear.... nice chocolate coffee stout on nitro... mmmm breakfast beer
Polkadot Princess... nice Belgium Strong... girly beer when you add peaches   
MOFO... tasty Brown Ale
Infamous Butcher... Killer thick rich dark... delicious...

That's all I tasted.... some I had in full size... some in sample size....  :roll:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on April 21, 2018, 10:53:55 PM
Stainless;

That beer menu looks good!

In the spring of '63 I went to Berlin and crossed through Checkpoint Charlie into East Berlin. At a restaurant there, "The Bucharest", I had a bottle of Romanian beer with lunch. It was 18% alcohol. Needless to say, it was inadvisable to have more than one, especially considering the surroundings.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 21, 2018, 10:58:15 PM
But I did a little work on other stuff... some Thursday, completed today...
I put the rear axle back together after checking everything survived the crash... cleaned and greased the bearings... pulled the brake disc, it did not survive, popped on the belt drove sprocket... hope to eliminate the chain on the rebuild...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 21, 2018, 11:09:38 PM
I finished the shock rockers... of course the bearing bores warped a little during welding, so I had to set them up in the mill and scrape a thou or so out...
They are welded and ready to install.  If I have material I will make brackets tomorrow... I guess I need to hang the fire bottles so I know where those braces will weld in... then the ones for the shocks and rockers can find their spot.
Here's the rockers
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 23, 2018, 12:06:49 AM
Found some bracket material on the rack...
But first while I type and then read the other threads I am sipping 7 year old Benders small batch rye... it is 96 proof... and as Pork Pie might say... this ones a bit of a rough boy.... I rarely add a splash of water, but this one drinks nicely at 80ish proof.

OK, back to the grind... literally... made some brackets, made some structure pieces to mount them to... measured... tweaked... remeasured... then tacked the brackets to the pieces.... it got a little late, so I shot a couple of pics and will play with it in the morning.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on April 23, 2018, 10:47:02 AM
There's that orange dead-blow hammer again!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on April 23, 2018, 11:51:00 AM
It's a famous hammer.  This morning I mentioned/showed it to Nancy.  She asked why I was laughing at the pics...and now she knows how important that hammer is to Stainless.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on April 23, 2018, 01:49:01 PM
It's a famous hammer.  This morning I mentioned/showed it to Nancy.  She asked why I was laughing at the pics...and now she knows how important that hammer is to Stainless.

It works on people visiting the shop as well.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 23, 2018, 10:56:23 PM
OK guys... I never "stage" pictures... as noticed by how cluttered some of my pictures are.  When I think a picture of something needs to be in there, I take it.  I am trying to show what it takes to build one of these from scratch... and I hope all my LR.com friends will tell me if they see something they think is an issue.... So far I have contacted the SCTA tech folks about the floor tubes... no replies other than Lee K said he submitted his recommendation to Kiwi Steve and John Bjorkman, don't know what Lee sent, still waiting for a reply.
The Hammer.... I don't think I have spent a day in the shop without using that hammer.  It is a great tool for nudging those pesky tubes where you want them.  I guess it makes its way into a lot of pics because it is always in use.  I have a smaller one as well, it stays mostly at the mill, but every now and then it gets used and shows up in a picture too...  YEP, that doubles the chances that an orange hammer will be in a pic  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on April 23, 2018, 11:10:28 PM
SS1 I bet most of us have one of those little dumplings
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on April 23, 2018, 11:56:17 PM
If anybody needs a response from Kiwi Steve & not getting anything, send him a text. His cell # is listed in the rule book. He's got a lot of $hit on his plate as you can imagine but this will help you.
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on April 24, 2018, 08:26:28 AM
yup..............
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: handyguy on April 24, 2018, 08:30:17 AM
kiwi steve is closing repair shop , phone # in old rulebook may be going away .
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 25, 2018, 12:12:02 AM
OK, did a little more on the front suspension... Both rockers are mounted to their cross structure, the mounting tabs are fully welded and those structure pieces are tacked in.  Next on the list is mounts for the other end of the coil-overs and the bottom structure that the droop stop rubbers will be mounted to...
Went by the Yard and picked up a variety of material to make brackets and mount fire bottles.  All the upper structure for the front suspension is tacked... it may be time to do a little welding.
El Kabong may be in there, I didn't really look.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on April 25, 2018, 05:19:15 AM
Stainless said:   "...El Kabong may be in there..."

Don't you go trying to bring back memories of the 60s and 70s, sir.  El Kabong is/was a very common name for something that hit like a hammer. . .
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: grumm441 on April 25, 2018, 07:07:57 AM
I thought El Kabong was a cartoon horse who broke acoustic guitars over criminals heads.
G
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: salt27 on April 25, 2018, 07:23:20 AM
and Baba Looey    :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: mc2032 on April 25, 2018, 08:04:12 AM
"El Kabong" ain't got nuthin' on the one pound hammer in Stainless's arsenal.  Ask him about it.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on April 25, 2018, 08:07:24 AM
great...While perusing the vintage pic thread on The Hamb I play " Spot the Studebaker'...Now it`s spot the hammer.........
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 25, 2018, 10:18:05 AM
Luckily I have not needed to use the "one pound" hammer on this build... it tends to bend things that don't respond to its one pound  :-o ... it is a BFH!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on April 25, 2018, 06:12:39 PM
I am sure that the "one pound hammer" probably weights slightly more than one pound. Being a engineer I would think that Stainless would have one of these. (straight from the McMasterCarr catalog)


Rex




Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Elmo Rodge on April 25, 2018, 06:49:21 PM
Rex, the "One Pound" refers to how many times you have to pound something to accomplish a task.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 25, 2018, 07:41:41 PM
Rex, the "One Pound" refers to how many times you have to pound something to accomplish a task.  :cheers:
Wayno

Yep.... Maxwell is an 8 lb sledge with a short handle... generally it does the job with 1 pound  :-D 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Ron Gibson on April 25, 2018, 08:38:30 PM
Mine is about 12 to 15 lbs with about a 12" handle. Made it for knocking out the old style U-joints on diesel trucks, not enough room to swing long handle. Makes a pretty good anvil at other times.

YMMV
Ron
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 26, 2018, 10:33:36 PM
Got a late start... working on my visa requirements for Bolivia.  Decided if Ack and Rocky were going to go 400 with the bike, I should see that... 2 sit on's going for 300... and the Barnyard Bearcat 2.0 (it was built here in Wichita) looking for big numbers.... hey why not.   
Made lower structure pieces, determined they will not help with the shock mounts, they will be used for the droop stop rubbers....then decided on a lower shock bracket and started making them.  Decided I should stop for lunch... it is 10PM... Had a glass of Bradford Mountain Red Field Blend wine with my roasted chicken and roasted veggies...
Not going back out to finish the brackets... maybe pictures tomorrow
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 27, 2018, 11:44:48 PM
Well the Texas termites have been working overtime... and we have brackets to mount the shocks to the frame... kinda reminds me of Jerry's avatar... a little duck looking... or maybe goose. 

Then here they are with their mates tacked in and holding up their end of the job. 
There is a lot more work and checking to do here, but I think this is the way the front will be.  I like the motion
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 28, 2018, 08:43:57 AM
Well the measurements say the axle is hanging within .020 of the center... slightly right, but well within the movements of the rod ends. 
The calculated ride height is with the boards in.  The lower structure is not tacked yet, I will install the droop stops first...
I guess it is getting close to time to weld all this in place.... but maybe I'll get the Watts Link worked out first since it will add a but more to the mix.

I'm taking next week off so it will look quiet around here for a while.... of course I will be thinking about the "how to's" ....
Anybody have a favorite brewery in DC....  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on April 28, 2018, 09:56:49 AM
Stainless;

Make sure the Watts linkage is level at your final ride height, otherwise the rear axle will shift left & right on bumps.

It looks like you are using some square & rectangular tubing in your chassis, too.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Ron Gibson on April 28, 2018, 12:15:03 PM
Going to rub elbows with our favorite liars - err politicians. :? :? :?

Ron 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 28, 2018, 03:30:05 PM
Ron, been telling folks Trump invited me to dinner...
He did, but mixed me up with someone that has money to donate...  :roll:

Plan is sightseeing... Linda has been there for work and always wanted to go back so she could see things rather than drive by.  I've never been there but it is on my list of spots I should visit.

Neil, yep, been reading up on Watts Links.

 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on April 29, 2018, 08:13:27 AM
Stainless;

Make sure the Watts linkage is level at your final ride height, otherwise the rear axle will shift left & right on bumps.

It looks like you are using some square & rectangular tubing in your chassis, too.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil, I think Stainless is using a Watts link on the front axle but your advice remains the same.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on April 30, 2018, 10:33:58 AM
I don't know if it helps but the PT Cruiser had a Watts linkage which should be cheap and plentiful source from a breakers yard and / or fleabay. Unequal length linkages but a nice looking 'z' linkage in photos on fleabay.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 20, 2018, 03:28:37 PM
Well for all you folks that think I must have quit since it has been quiet here.... I did... for a couple of weeks anyway.  The DC trip was cool, visited all the memorials, saw all the stone buildings, toured to our hearts content... and found a different brewery every day... one day found 2.  The most interesting was Bardo Brewery... totally outside, bathrooms and storage in old containers.  The brewery is sitting on a cement pad... next to a construction site... they move when the vacant lot they set up on is due for building... said they moved to their current spot a year ago, expect to be there for 3 more years.
My new Geothermal heatpump showed up shortly after we got back, so I installed that, then prepped the garden for Linda... that included 2 loader buckets of manure...
So yesterday I was able to do a little welding on the car, til I ran out of Argon  :x thought my spare was full, wrong!
This morning I decided I should work on a watts link.  Carved up a chunk of aluminum, waiting on bearings to finish... there are times I wish I had a CNC to do outside radius.... I guess that is why I have a disc sander...
Here is what I have so far.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Jack Gifford on May 20, 2018, 11:38:07 PM
My shade-tree approach to outside radii on a manual mill (if you've got plenty of time to kill)-
Bolt a pivot pin (to fit the work piece) to the table. Provide a stop to prevent the work from moving up the pivot. Bolt stops where the radius is to start and end (-90 & +90 degrees in your case). Rotate the piece slowly by hand (opposite rotation to the cutter) in small cuts (say .005" at a time). After each cut the piece can be rotated back without stopping the machine, before advancing the table another increment toward the cutter.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on May 21, 2018, 07:36:39 AM
corner rounding cutter...............they even make me look like I know what I`m doing.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: kiwi belly tank on May 21, 2018, 10:29:44 AM
This hillbilly goes for the hand mill, aka router. :-D
  Sid.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on May 21, 2018, 10:41:23 AM
hmmmm how does this up/down work    a Hillbilly from down/under   Sid does that mean your are on a sea mount or something   :?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Mr. Schimstock on May 21, 2018, 11:38:48 AM
I've put a radius on using the method this guy does. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTj6LC6agrg&t=435s

It's slow and leaves some flat spots that are easily cleaned up, but it does work.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on May 21, 2018, 12:08:03 PM
These are all great ideas that work great but here is another way that is much faster, if not as precise.

Paint on a coat of layout blue and scribe a radius with a protractor. Grind away the excess material with a belt sander using a 3M Cubitron II abrasive. This abrasive literally eats metal! Hacksawing away as much material as possible beforehand helps, too. Quick & easy.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 23, 2018, 12:45:24 AM
I managed to use a couple of the suggestions, followed the video and then used the sander... came out alright... bearings about a .001 press
Here is how I plan to use it.... more structure required for the  attach points... but getting it close to the way it is planned. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 27, 2018, 11:16:50 PM
Seems quiet here but I have been busy making parts for the Watts Link.  All the parts are made but some need to be welded together and others need welded in place.... but with any luck you will get the idea of where things are going with the pictures. 
Welding starts tomorrow...
I will be taking a couple of days off while the Docs rework my electrical system  :| unfortunately my pump is running at 44-55 as long as I am up and moving... 41-38 if I am sitting down.... so Wednesday I get a timer installed... I have been resisting that but the doc says this is the fix to raise my energy level a little.
My buddy Ross is afraid I will end up like a 10 year old on a sugar high since I have always run slow...  :roll:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on May 28, 2018, 12:00:06 AM
Good luck with the new ECU---hope you get a good baseline tune :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Sumner on May 28, 2018, 09:22:37 AM
....Welding starts tomorrow...
I will be taking a couple of days off while the Docs rework my electrical system  :| unfortunately my pump is running at 44-55 as long as I am up and moving... 41-38 if I am sitting down.... so Wednesday I get a timer installed... I have been resisting that but the doc says this is the fix to raise my energy level a little.
My buddy Ross is afraid I will end up like a 10 year old on a sugar high since I have always run slow...  :roll:
 :cheers:

That is what mine was running at and you know where I ended up.  I do have a lot more energy now so glad I got it installed.  It is a Boston Scientific Model K173.  I was worried about welding but have had no problems with the TIG or MIG.  Call me if you need any more info.

Been following all your good work on the lakester, keep it up  :cheers:

Sumner
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 29, 2018, 09:52:11 PM
After throwing all the front end stuff together... I thought I should also add the other large chunks that live in that area... 15+ lbs of Halon.  I knew everything would be close, it always was before... and it still is, but now I have the front axle upper limit that is controlled several ways.  So with the shocks disconnected, because they will stop upward movement with the bump rubbers before the mechanical stop can be reached.
The axle is as high as it will go....
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 29, 2018, 10:17:53 PM
Here is where it is at normal ride height and then at the bottom in full droop. 

Of course while I was moving full stroke I checked how the Watts was doing... from full droop to full bump I could not find a measurable movement... of course we are talking about a little over 2 inches.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on June 03, 2018, 11:50:16 AM
The one thing I found out is when they installed the new ECU, the wiring is a little fragile at first, so for a few days they want my left arm in a sling.... and they suggested that I might want to wear that sling anytime I am in the shop to prevent inadvertent motion with that arm.  Since there is very little pain associated with the arm movement they were right to suggest that. 
Working with one arm in a sling is tough but doable.  :|

Full droop needs stops... So here they are... not welded in yet, Tig needs 2 hands... that may be possible after I see the Doc on the 5th.  They want limited arm movement for a month while the wiring scars in.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on June 03, 2018, 02:37:35 PM
any 5th grade sugar high performances  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Sumner on June 03, 2018, 04:37:18 PM
The one thing I found out is when they installed the new ECU, the wiring is a little fragile at first, so for a few days they want my left arm in a sling.... and they suggested that I might want to wear that sling anytime I am in the shop to prevent inadvertent motion with that arm.  Since there is very little pain associated with the arm movement they were right to suggest that...

Congrats on getting through the rewire procedure.  I'll bet there was also something said about how much you should lift for a while.  I know it is hard for you, but take it easy and don't pull those leads out  :wink:,

Sumner

Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on June 03, 2018, 06:45:58 PM
It is hard to not do when you have energy to do....  :|
Yep no lifting anything heavier than my di--.... so the 19 inch 1 x 1.5 tubes to support the bumpers was within my limit  :roll: OK I used the other arm...  :-D

Ran the lathe a little today making weld in stubs to put in the end of the tubes aft of the engine bay for the rear of the car tubes.

Still noodling the rear suspension... I still think I can improve on the old one, but we will see
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on June 10, 2018, 07:35:32 PM
When I set the lengths on the 4 bar and the Watts I determined I needed some way to hold the links while I tightened the jam nuts.  I picked up a couple of dollars worth of large nuts at the yard.
I modified a bunch of the nuts on the lathe to weld to the links...

So I need to do a little welding... the Doc said I could, just can't push, pull or lift with the left arm... I decided to give it a try... Seemed to work, I don't think the nut will fall off  :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on June 10, 2018, 10:03:16 PM
I was looking at doing that too, Rob, until I came across these on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-8-18-LH-HEX-WELD-IN-BUNG-FITS-120-WALL-TUBE-HEIM-JOINTS/371529806554?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44040%26meid%3D9af6b5fceecc4373842978fe64da464c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D132502879464%26itm%3D371529806554&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

BTW, if you need more rod ends for rear axle links, I found a guy on eBay selling NOS RX-AM-8T Aurora rod ends for $15 per.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on June 11, 2018, 09:00:33 AM
Well those would have made life a little easier...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Dr Goggles on July 10, 2018, 07:57:00 PM
Seems quiet here but I have been busy making parts for the Watts Link.  All the parts are made but some need to be welded together and others need welded in place.... but with any luck you will get the idea of where things are going with the pictures. 
Welding starts tomorrow...
I will be taking a couple of days off while the Docs rework my electrical system  :| unfortunately my pump is running at 44-55 as long as I am up and moving... 41-38 if I am sitting down.... so Wednesday I get a timer installed... I have been resisting that but the doc says this is the fix to raise my energy level a little.
My buddy Ross is afraid I will end up like a 10 year old on a sugar high since I have always run slow...  :roll:
 :cheers:

Bob, you'd run with a thermosyphon.....

good to see the progress I've been busy, without being busy, sort of....applying for jobs, little bit of shed stuff. You'll be pleased to hear I'm getting a little more order in the shed....today I've already submitted an application so I'm off to the shed to build a replica of our house as a kennel for Woogie, hope yer well...... DrG
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 11, 2018, 05:14:54 PM
Being in Bolivia is slowing my progress as well
I am trying to update the Ack in Bolivia thread as Subaru happens...
Still planning to put the whip to you next year for the DLRA meet... I'll be there way earlier I hope.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Elmo Rodge on July 11, 2018, 05:30:52 PM
A couple of weeks ago KC and I went to Rocky Mountain National Park and were over 12,000 feets. Not long enough for the nitrogen in our blood to get goofy though.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Dr Goggles on July 12, 2018, 01:14:21 AM
A couple of weeks ago KC and I went to Rocky Mountain National Park and were over 12,000 feets. Not long enough for the nitrogen in our blood to get goofy though.  :cheers:
Wayno

Goofier.  :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Dr Goggles on July 12, 2018, 01:15:52 AM
Being in Bolivia is slowing my progress as well
I am trying to update the Ack in Bolivia thread as Subaru happens...
Still planning to put the whip to you next year for the DLRA meet... I'll be there way earlier I hope.

Challenge accepted, Oh btw.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1773951729367899&set=a.205069186256169.43676.100002592664801&type=3
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 12, 2018, 05:48:51 AM
At least your down time is not going to waste working on that Dodge race car  :roll:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on August 02, 2018, 12:39:13 PM
Stainless,
Looking forward to see how you address the belt drive installation as that is on my list for next years up dates. What ratio do you run between the engine and axle. We are a 2.12:1 now on our chain drive and would probably want the same for the belt.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 26, 2018, 10:44:28 PM
Well here we are again.... while everyone thinks I've just been slaking the issue is the new phone... aka.. new camera has been fighting to keep photos and I just let it. 
Linda and I went to Hawaii for 10 days, so I had to get the pictures out for that.... and I did.
Hawaii?  yep, Linda had been there for work and vacation, I had been there twice before as well... except both times I was there was at night  :-o  It is an interesting place in the daytime...  and you can't drive very far without seeing the ocean, it was like being on islands  :roll:

So back to the car
I have not taken a lot of pictures of my plan for the rear suspension but I have been making parts to see if my thoughts were the way to go.  I wanted to simplify so I went to the source... I looked at a lot of  the rear suspensions in special construction at Bonneville. 
I had talked about it with Alan Rice while we were in Bolivia, and he sent pictures of their rear suspension. 

I sketched an idea and started building parts.... first I needed to extend the bottom frame rails temporarily. The structure that I was attaching to was there, but I only had 8 inches beyond the that on the bottom rail.  I didn't want to box myself in by building the back frame of the car.... but I needed a bit of bottom rail for reference of where to put the suspension.

The pivot is going to be on 7/8 x 3/4 rod ends, the arms will be 1.5 x .125 DOM and it is attaching to the existing 4 bar mounts on the axle.



Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 26, 2018, 11:21:44 PM
Rex, I hope to run about the same ratios as I have for chain.  I think we were running a 2.45 overall with the last set up... 1.596 primary, 1.043 transmission and a 19/28 chain. So I will try to do the same final with a belt.  I have 17, 18, 19, and 20 drive and 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, and 34 driven in chain... if I can cover close to those I will be thrilled. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 26, 2018, 11:36:00 PM
Fast forward... Made a bunch of parts and started gluing them together.  The way it works out, the swingarm mount is wider than the old 4 bar so I milled the slots in the tube at 3 degrees.  The rod end can easily handle that so here is where I am.  I milled the same angles in the 2 x .125  cross tube.
Before I tack the cross tube, I need to ensure everything is sitting right.  I'll use 1 2 3 blocks to space the axle above the frame, the wood blocks are about .020 different, and keep the axle centered on the frame.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on October 27, 2018, 08:40:54 AM
Beautiful work. So neat and uncluttered. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on October 27, 2018, 09:45:34 AM
 :-o I sure hope you weren't referring to his mind.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 27, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
You are some funny guys.... Got the arm welded, the arm doesn't rock on the welding table, so we'll see if it fits after it cools down.   The 1 2 3 blocks made it easier than trying to shim the wood.  I'll post a pic of the installed arm as soon as I get it done.  The coilovers  will probably be done like the front on rockers with the shocks mounted behind the swingarm.  Of course that means that I will have to bend the tubes for the rear of the car, make new slugs to align the butt welds.  The rear tubes are going to be 1 5/8 x .083.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 27, 2018, 01:37:45 PM
As with all of your stuff the word "stout" comes to mind! Nice work Stainless, looking forward to seeing what you do for a belt tensioner.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 27, 2018, 09:11:20 PM
Yea, we always figured if you were going to build it, you just as well over-build it...

Here is what we have, the support can be removed from either side, it drops about a thou... maybe from the weight of the axle...
I think I'm ready to weld the tube bungs, and the mounts... I think I have a good start for the rear suspension...  we will bend some tubes for the back of the car and start thinking about the coilovers.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Jack Gifford on October 28, 2018, 12:28:54 AM
I must be missing something- it looks to me that it will behave like an infinitely-stiff anti-roll bar. :?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on October 28, 2018, 11:18:01 AM
should limit individual wheel travel I would think
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 28, 2018, 12:50:47 PM
Jack, is that a bad thing for a car built to only go straight?  
We had a 4 link with a panhard bar, on a very narrow car, the bar was really short and suspension movement up and down also caused right and left rear steer... not a lot, but enough to make the car wander.  
We changed that to a 4 link with triangulated top links, that eliminated the movement and made the car more stable but the rough courses of late caused a little bit of body roll and that made the drivers a bit uncomfortable.

Looking at some cars on the salt, I noticed some commonality, a lot of the Special Construction cars basically had a swingarm rear suspension.  That pushed me this direction... if it ends up not working, I will rebuild it with something else.  I can tell you there is no sideways movement, and no flex in the entire setup.  Both wheels will move together, and the coilovers will control that.... with any luck.  Hoping it will be a lot like having a solid rear, but with some suspension movement.

Any suspension guru's out there what to chime in?   :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on October 28, 2018, 01:53:23 PM
How about using a Watts linkage to control rear axle lateral movement instead of a Panhard bar?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Koncretekid on October 28, 2018, 05:09:42 PM
I must be missing something- it looks to me that it will behave like an infinitely-stiff anti-roll bar. :?
No suspension guru here, but I agree with Jack, but I don't think that is a bad thing on a narrow car.  That being the case, I would box up the two arms to make sure there isn't any flex side to side.  Otherwise, I think that 1" x 2" cross bar will take a sh*t kicking and may crack at the welds as one side tries to move independently from the other.

Sort of like a motorcycle - - You want to make sure the swing arm is stiff enough not to twist!
Tom
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 28, 2018, 09:51:15 PM
Neil, I'm thinking the way its made it is it's own lateral control and should not need additional lateral control. 

Tom, not expecting a lot of twist flex... the coilovers will attach to the old 4 link mounts above the point that has the three 1/2 in bolts that hold the 5/8 steel plates on the swingarm to the axle... Not a lot of twist allowed, but we will look at it after it is built to see if it needs more stiffness added.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Jack Gifford on October 28, 2018, 10:18:01 PM
Thanks for explaining your approach. I sure can't argue with "surveying what works". If my lakester doesn't have enough room for a driveshaft and U-joints, I may consider a similar scheme- but having the engine/trans/rearend as a sprung unit.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 29, 2018, 09:05:55 PM

Stainless,
If you find that your swing arm requires more twisting stiffness I would suggest that you weld in an X member out of some 1 x 2 tubing and make the 2 inch section vertical. X members resist twist by bending so you want the largest section vertical.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 30, 2018, 10:02:49 PM
Started bending tubes for the back of the car.  Bent the curves for all 4 with John Goodman's (ggl205) tube roller.  I will need to do the compound curve up for the bottom back. 
Ross (mc2032) was over and suggested that I build it upside down because it will be easier than suspending these tubes and then trying to bend the tubes up to meet them and keep everything in the right place.  So these are the top tubes, they are just being built on the bottom. 
BJ Burkdoll suggested it would be just short of impossible to do all the compound curves in one piece, but if I cut the curve where it starts to rise, bend that part, clock it where it goes and then weld it back in it might be easier to duplicate. 
But before I can do that I need to figure out a chute tube. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on October 30, 2018, 11:31:11 PM
You've got some "good" guys assisting there.
The project looks awsome. Your shop is so tidy.
I wish I could say the same.

Building the rear clip upside down makes sense IMO.
Great progress. :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on October 31, 2018, 07:59:59 AM
I spy an orange fitment device...Looks great Bob.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 31, 2018, 09:37:45 AM
Mike, if you saw the entire space, you would not consider my shop "tidy"  :-o  although I did clean up a little and put some stuff away before I started bending because I had to turn the car around because I couldn't reach the back of the car with the TIG.  Ross and I rolled the car outside through the big shop because there is not enough open space to spin it indoors.

Jerry I could have used this pic to get you a better view of El Kabong... also added a refresher course
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on October 31, 2018, 09:57:55 PM
Stainless,

Have you ever thought of just making the top and bottom tubes the same and parallel in side view and not have the rear bottom come up? We were planning to do the rear of our car with both the top and bottom come together to form a point this would make the rear body have a continuously decreasing diameter, i.e. a NACA 66018 cone. I talked with Woody regarding this and he suggested that we retain the NACA shape in the plan view but make it a constant dimension in the side view. Except for the slight increase in skin area the aero is about the same. It also forms a fairly large side view area which moves the center of pressure back.

Rex



 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on October 31, 2018, 11:58:01 PM
Rex, I will have to consult my Aero guy on that, but to answer you question, I had not considered that.  The car was designed as a streamliner in the 70's.  It turned into lakester in 84 with the tread layouts recommended by the same guy.  Several years later he suggested a nose job...
Tom Burkland  asked me if I was going to build a new car, I said yes.
Then he asked if I was going to change the shape and build a fast car... told him I hated to screw with success but I was hoping to make improvements as I went along... He is not a flat bottom car fan....

The car has changed a little over the years.... I think our first record in 1984 was J lakester in the  low 130's .  :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 01, 2018, 08:19:39 AM
Stainless -

I was aware that the Bockscar had undergone some reiterations over the years, but I was unaware it had started out as a streamliner.
That's a very cool set of pictures, and a really good example of project development over a number of years.

This new one is going to rock.

Carry on, chief.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Sumner on November 01, 2018, 10:15:05 AM
...Tom Burkland .... is not a flat bottom car fan....

I tend to agree with that except if you keep the air from going under the car such as Speed Demon has done.  Not sure just rounding up the tail will help as far as getting away from the 'flat bottom'.  I like Rex's suggestion and is very similar to what I've done.  Good way to increase the CP.  

If mine was ever to be done it will have a rounded bottom front to rear, where the lowest part is 6 inches from the ground, helping to keeping air from being compressed under the car.  Stole some of that from one of the solar racers in the following book that has a smaller solar array and employs a better aero package to make up for it ...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GMJF1QZDL._SX356_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Edge-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837608600/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1541084965&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Leading+Edge

A lot of the book was over my head but the conclusions were something that could be worked from.

Impressed with the progress you are making  :cheers:,

Sum
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 01, 2018, 11:12:35 AM
Skirts!!!!!. Betcha everyone here loves skirts!. :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 01, 2018, 11:18:14 AM
Midget, the original K liner had 2 motors, the lakester conversion hid a Honda 750 Interceptor motorcycle inside... with the triple tree and upper frame cut off, the rear axle ran on pillow blocks attached to the motorcycle swingarm.  It had motors from Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki, 45 to 99.5 CI in it...

Sum, We try to limit the amount of air going under and give the air under a place to go.  Nose down, tail up

Mike.... only short ones  :roll:  :wink:

We had a lot of fun with that car...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 01, 2018, 11:59:30 AM
No, I'm not too good with photo edit, but I think this is what Rex is suggesting and it would be a lot easier than duplicating the original...
Still need to talk to a couple of aero folks.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 01, 2018, 12:28:07 PM
That was very good editing! I have read the thread and could see both photos and it still took several times back and forth to see the difference. I like the look of the edited version but function is more important so it will be interesting to see what results.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Sumner on November 01, 2018, 12:33:26 PM

Sum, We try to limit the amount of air going under and give the air under a place to go.  Nose down, tail up

The 'Porkpie' influence and a good one.....

Also like the 'Rex' idea to go with it..
Sum
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: PorkPie on November 01, 2018, 05:13:35 PM
.....really........
[/quote]

The 'Porkpie' influence and a good one.....

Sum

[/quote]
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 02, 2018, 08:07:20 AM

The 'Porkpie' influence and a good one.....


Best in the business.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 03, 2018, 11:26:21 AM
Well it looks like the up swoop will stay... the narrow rear track requires a place for the turbulent air between the wheels to go.  A wide track rear and the change makes sense.... and if I get a chance at the wind tunnel that will be one of the things I check for improvements. 
I wanted to wind tunnel the old car, and was planning that during the 2017 racing season... unfortunately the car did not survive SpeedWeek
I should hear back from my Chute tube material quote Monday.... Looking at 5.5 or 5.75 x .065 or .083 304 stainless for the tube.  If it comes in too expensive I guess I hit plan B and try to roll and weld a tube.  Yep the old tube was bent and dented in the crash... already thought about reusing it  :|
Sometimes I wish I was rich instead of good looking...   :roll: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 03, 2018, 05:20:42 PM
Stainless,
In all of the many configurations that you have ran the old car in did you ever run the rear tires in a wide track configuration? I am thinking 10-12 inches between the body and the tires.  I cannot see the logic of running the tires close to the body as in my thinking they interfere with what we hope is the smooth and attached air as it flows down the side of the car. I have seen on many cars, specifically lakesters, that run the tires close to the body, an arch of salt build up on the body just in front of the rear tires. It is most prominent on flat sided cars, like the your car but I have also seen it on round section cars where the body comes close to the tire, such as Seth Hammon's car. Pretty good indication of the air being turbulent and un-attached. This makes any type of converging rear body work almost a waste of time.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 04, 2018, 06:02:05 PM
Rex, the original streamliner was designed by Lynn Yakel, when we refitted it to a lakester Lynn gave us front axle position on the body and track, and rear axle position and track.  He specified the narrow rear track for the car, so that is what we did.  It has never had a wide rear track. 
I guess when it is no longer competitive or I get some tunnel time I can investigate using a wide track in the rear... and fairings for the axles.  Some of the other things I thought about are being incorporated due to roll cage size, and the way I'm building it.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tortoise on November 04, 2018, 06:59:32 PM
I cannot see the logic of running the tires close to the body as in my thinking they interfere with what we hope is the smooth and attached air as it flows down the side of the car.

"Logic" won't answer this question. Maybe putting the tires right up close to the body prevents them from generating a big turbulent wake on the side near the body. Maybe the tires would be partially in a slower moving boundary layer. Maybe tire drag is a bigger thing than body drag. Maybe.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 05, 2018, 07:41:22 AM
When I started thinking about building a Lakester in the UK and was perusing the Bonneville results I kept coming across something called Bockscar. I admit to a small amount of awe but really struggled to find many pictures in the public domain so was thrilled to see it in the flesh in 2017 (albeit on its last start line).

Clearly whatever Bockscar was doing was right for Bockscar - I am pursuing a different design thingy (philosophy is too strong a word), obviously in the hope that it will be righter  :-D

Wheels out in the breeze are the big (Lakester) aero drag component and to my mind the influence of wheel wake on the streamlined body (wide track vs. narrow) is probably 'the' question of our time (for Lakesters) but is probably entirely dependant on the body shape - curved floor or sides, ground clearance, rear overhang etc. I gather there is limited data.

Is the narrow track design more about an 'enclosed' frontal area I wonder.

I assume F1 have car bodies in plan inspired by an iconic beverage bottle to give the wake somewhere to go (that they can then control to diffusers, wings etc.)
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on November 05, 2018, 08:07:56 AM
I was always a proponent of very narrow track, both front and rear. My first lakester was such a car and was very long and very angular. By most accounts, that car should not have gone as fast as it did. Today, my better idea for the second car may or may not prove faster but one thing the wind tunnel did hint at was wider front track. As rear suspension is stock Reynard Formula Continental, track is wide at 55". Front track has been widened to 50" so I will have to wait until next year to see if these changes (and many others), improve speed. 

Rex, I posted a short YouTube video of my car in the Darko wind tunnel and you can clearly see smoke trails of turbulent air coming off front wheels all the way back. So, all that nastiness from the front stays with you for the entire length of the car. Many years ago, I investigated barge boards in an attempt to deflect front wheel wakes so they do not affect aero the entire length of the body. I still think these have merit but now that I have changed front track, I have no idea where to place them.

John   
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 05, 2018, 01:50:06 PM
John,
Thanks for the vid of your car in the wind tunnel! Pretty informative. The link to the vid is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPPkEQ3wOos

Several things are of interest to me in this vid: 1. How well the Moon disc work, the air flow around the front tires is very informative. 2. How the disruption of the front wheels carries down the side of the car pretty much making all of the air turbulent and un-attached. 3. The transition from the body to your tail mach-up at some points appears to not re-attach, i.e. high drag. If you do made your rear body in this configuration you should probably use some sort of vortex generator to get the air to attach to your rear body. 4. Attention to detail around places where things protrude from the main body. Really important to address these, especially any toward the front of the car as any turbulence generated by them will disrupt air flow towards the rear of the car.

Duke and I do have in our future plans a trip to the wind tunnel but this year it is the motor on a good dyno is the target. I am also planning to do several detail aero improvements around both the front wheels/axle and improve my rear axle fairing also.

Back to the Bockscar build!

Rex 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on November 06, 2018, 04:56:14 PM
Rob, please excuse my comments on your build thread. Not sure how else to comment to Rex. I will be brief.

Rex, like locating bard boards, I have no idea where to position vortex generators. My best guess would be to place them at the seam between where the original body ended and the new section begins. This would give air time and distance to speed up and attach.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: maj on November 09, 2018, 01:49:27 PM
I brought vortex generators to try and keep air attached further down the bike, and then called the manufacturer to talk about placement
very important to have them in the attached flow, like the front wheels , there influence goes a long way
if you look a aircraft using them its always closer to the leading edge 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 13, 2018, 08:38:22 PM
No I have not been slacking... I've been making parts and patiently waiting for the parachute tube materials to show up. 
Decided to move on... I bent the lowers ... remember way back when... I was building upside down... well here is some of the results... I'll bend the final bends when I get a tube for the parachute. 
Everything lines up and is looking like it will work.  Had to make 6 tube inserts to connect the tubes

Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 13, 2018, 09:01:45 PM
Yes, it seems tube bending is a black art.... Making 4 identical tubes is not easy. then finding the spot in the middle of the bend to make another bend is something I have struggled with for a couple of days.  Ross (MC2032) came by for a beer, so we hacked one of the tubes in two and threw it into the hydraulic tube bender.   Beer helps with the decision making process.
So upside down worked, It is time to flip it over, then start working to ensure it ends up square and symmetrical.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 13, 2018, 09:16:45 PM
And the last two... some additional bending will be required and some tacking to keep things from shifting, but this is the basic shape we will end up with.  When I get my tube material, I will be able to start to finish this part.  Drilled a bunch of rosette holes and decided to stop here. 
There is still plenty to do  :cheers:  August is just around the corner... luckily Ross comes over with homebrew and "what ifs" and "how about's" my ideas and plans.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on November 13, 2018, 09:17:32 PM
You can never have enough tools as exemplified by your level collection.  :-D :-D :-D
I know exactly how that one works.  :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 14, 2018, 06:12:24 AM
That, Gentlemen is how you build a race car!!!!!!!!.

That's STAINLESS. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

What size parachute tube is that on the ID?.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 14, 2018, 08:27:20 AM
Ross (MC2032) came by for a beer, so we hacked one of the tubes in two and threw it into the hydraulic tube bender.   Beer helps with the decision making process.


Sparky shared a great term for this process - he calls it "bingineering".

It's akin to the creative arts process. 

Kate's a copywriter, who states unequivocally that one should "write drunk and edit sober".

Same goes in the recording studio - "record high, mix dry".

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 14, 2018, 08:35:56 AM
I agree 100% Chris. Well put brother. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 14, 2018, 09:02:54 AM
Well it is a lot easier to just do it after a beer or two... less concern for the consequences of failure I guess.  :roll:

I really wanted to use 5.5 x .065 inch 304 stainless tubing... yep there is such a thing... but finding it at a reasonable price is impossible... the folks that have it are quite proud of it... one place was $156 a foot.... 11 ft minimum  :-o the low price was $99/ft and would sell 3 ft, but that still falls a little outside the budget.  
Yes I can get 6 easily, but it is not the size I prefer... our old tube was 5 x.083, after an pushing incident it was repaired to 5.25 where the pilot is. But available pilots fit very tight, and I wanted a little more room.
I found 5.5 x .065 aluminum... Have a chunk of it coming to see if it looks sturdy enough and I have 5 inch schedule 10 aluminum pipe on the way as well.
One of those is going to work.
Yes I could have rolled stainless sheet and made a tube, but that just added more work for the guy that wants to race next year.
 :cheers:













Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on November 14, 2018, 09:56:25 AM
With beer and an orange persuader what could possibly go wrong - go wrong - go wrong ???????????? :-D :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 15, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
Spent today coming up with the best way to align the back now that it is flipped over.  Between the plumb line, the levels and the framing squares I think I am there.  Tacked the upper in place, then aligned the lower and threw a couple of tacks there to. 
Ross came by to help... first with finishing the tacks, and then with a couple of liters of homemade stout aged with a little bourbon spike in the bottles. 
As usual it was quite tasty.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on November 16, 2018, 12:05:22 AM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 16, 2018, 09:02:37 PM
Started playing with the chute tube after I welded the tubes in place.  There is more welding to do but I don't expect anything to move.
I suspect the chute tube will be quite a bit shorter, in fact I think it will be a couple inches past the top rails when I'm done.  Of course the top rails might be a little shorter as well.  I have to pull the  water tank out of the old car and then start the install into this car.... the chute tube stops at the water tank.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stan Back on November 19, 2018, 03:38:02 PM
This ain't necessarily for you, Stainless, but . . .

When we sized the parachute tube for the roadster, someone suggested making it a couple of inches longer than we thought we needed.  It might make it easier to pack a slightly dirty or salty chute.  And in the mean time, you could store a roll of duct tape there to take up the space.

We soon found out that we needed a much longer lead on the pilot chute as the air behind our street roadster was somewhat confused.  Bob Stroud kindly shipped the longer line {and maybe a different pilot, too (?)}, and that took up the storage room for the tape, but we didn't have to redo the installed tube.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 19, 2018, 03:40:50 PM
Sound advice from what I'm reading. :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 19, 2018, 06:24:09 PM
Online Metals has 5 or 6 inch dia x .065 304 stainless tube, about $50/foot for the 5" and $60/ft for the 7".

https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=10459&step=4&showunits=inches&id=19&top_cat=1

Rex

Fast delivery too!
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 19, 2018, 09:21:14 PM
Stan,  adding 2 inches to the old tube and it will be about a 1/2 inch larger inside diameter than the old tube. 

Rex, yes everyone has 5 and 6 inch.... 5 is a little small and 6 is too large... right now trying the aluminum tube.  If I don't like how it works out I will roll a stainless tube... I can use the tube structurally if it is steel... and I can bolt it in if it is aluminum... And I'll get to practice my aluminum welding putting brackets on it... we will see how it all works out.

Built a piece to tie the bottom tubes together today... yea, no pic, maybe after I weld it to the car I'll remember to take a pic.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 20, 2018, 12:42:21 PM
Buy a piece of the 6 inch dia and cut a 1.57 inch strip out of it then practice your stainless welding. Probably more work than just having it rolled.

Looking good Stainless~!!

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 20, 2018, 08:40:51 PM
OK, I didn't take a pic of the end cap, but it is in there. 
I grabbed the water tank, and tossed it in there to start checking how things will fit... the tube has not been cut yet but the black line is the probable cut point.  Made the 1 x 1 cross brace that will support the front of the tube... I may also lop about 2 inches off the top rails, you may be able to see the marks. I have not decided on that yet.

One of the websites that I tried to buy stainless from fixed a problem I brought to their attention for ordering... so I ordered a piece of 5 inch schedule 5 304 stainless pipe... just got notified they cancelled my order because the didn't have material...  :-( Guess they didn't check stock till I was able to order... Yes I would still prefer stainless because I can weld it in place and add structural strength... the aluminum will have to bolt in to the structure.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 21, 2018, 03:43:43 AM
Looks good. And I thought finding "special" materials was an African problem???.
I hope you find the unicorn. It's out there.  :cheers: :cheers:
God Bless.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 25, 2018, 10:37:08 PM
Well here is that end cap/parachute attach point I promised days ago...
And no, that part is not done... there is still lots of connecting to do to tie all 4 tubes in the back together.  If I find the tube in stainless that will make it easy... if not, I have a plan to attach braces to make them tie together.

I had the tube and water tank out so I could make the first water tank mount brackets.
Yea Sparky, I'm bracket racing, and man that is a lot of cut-grind-weld... eats up a lot of time

More to come as I slowly make a little progress. Don't mind the clutter.... I always forget to straighten up a little before I take a pic or two
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 25, 2018, 11:34:12 PM
Looking good and making progress. Nothing wrong there.
It's amazing how the clutter builds up. My shop is getting
a tidy up starting today. Thanks for sharing the pics. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on November 26, 2018, 09:55:40 AM
Bob...You`d be surprised at the number of brackets/ mounts I have found hiding in a piece of rectangular tubing ...Cuts down on the fab time too.  JB.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 26, 2018, 10:11:40 AM
Jerry, that is a great idea, I will start looking for them hiding in some of the tubing I have  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: fordboy628 on November 26, 2018, 11:43:24 AM

Don't mind the clutter.... I always forget to straighten up a little before I take a pic or two


What's the point?   Cleanup is "wasted effort" and so: over-rated . . . .

Besides, as soon as the pics are taken, it's back to the "goat explosion"  anyway.

Looking good Bob.

 :cheers:  and Happy Holidaze . . . .
Mark
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on November 26, 2018, 12:10:08 PM
Some one once said, "neatness is the hovel of a small mind!" Take a look at a pic of Einstein's desk some time.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on November 26, 2018, 12:28:35 PM
(https://www.sott.net/image/s15/309229/large/maxresdefault.jpg)

 :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on November 26, 2018, 01:05:45 PM
Yea Bob...I have lucid, rational thoughts from time to time....just happen too seldom... :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on November 26, 2018, 03:01:36 PM
(https://www.sott.net/image/s15/309229/large/maxresdefault.jpg)

 :cheers:

Mike

By this standard, I must be a genius.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 26, 2018, 03:32:07 PM

Don't mind the clutter.... I always forget to straighten up a little before I take a pic or two


What's the point?   Cleanup is "wasted effort" and so: over-rated . . . .

Besides, as soon as the pics are taken, it's back to the "goat explosion"  anyway.

Looking good Bob.

 :cheers:  and Happy Holidaze . . . .
Mark


 :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D Too true!!!.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 26, 2018, 11:57:37 PM
No pics today, but played in the shop most of the day.  Made some brackets, but then figured out that I need new rubber grommets for the water tank mounts, and that will actually change the top mount. Grommets show up Wednesday at Graingers.

Thinking about the parachute tube... did a little ciphering
Old tube- 5 inch x .063 x 26 = 484.3 ci

New tube 5.562 x .109 x 26 = 583.17 ci 
or
New tube 5.562 x .109 x 25 = 560.7 ci

So I pulled the chute out of the box, and packed it in the new tube after temp plugging the end... it packed in 24 inches and had a little room to spare... that math ended with 538 cubic inches.  Lots of room  in the tube so I guess there will be plenty of room to store duct tape if I need to.  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 27, 2018, 04:50:42 AM
In life you can never have too much duct tape - there is always something.

In the UK there is a popular brand at DIY stores called Duck Tape and that seems to have become eponymous here. Interestingly I have neither seen a duck using said tape nor indeed repaired by it.

Recently the Gorilla brand (US I think) has become popular but I think trying to pull that off a large primates fur could go wrong quite quickly.

Seriously though - thank you Stainless for the tube volume calculations. That helps put the tube requirments in perspective for me.

I may be using incorrect terms but the bridle line (that attaches to the vehicle) will presumably lie along the bottom of the tube and the chute packed on top of it filling the tube from the rear - is there any reason why a tapered channel at the bottom of the tube is a bad idea for that line or just simply unnecessary?

john
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on November 27, 2018, 06:05:30 AM
MMM, good stuff. Iffy staff here!!!!.
Glad you got the chute tube sorted. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on November 27, 2018, 10:35:29 AM
LM There are two systems one has it's pilot chute in another 3" tube with a spring or cyl. launcher or a pilot chute that packs in the same tube.

When I used a pilot chute that had a spring that attached to it I tied m y chute tether to the frame and it flew inside the tube

I now use a system that has a spring that is inside of a 3" alum tube for a small non ridged pilot chute and I use two different size chutes and pilots and two different length tethers 60' launched first and 45' second.  I can swap tubes so the big one is first at El mirage and the small is first on the long tether at b'ville.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 27, 2018, 10:56:03 PM
LM, the tether could  lay in a channel, but it would have to be a very smooth channel transition... We have always had it just laying on the bottom, all the others folded on top of it, the chute folded in and a spring loaded pilot.  If you don't have enough tube, it gets really hard to pack the chute and tether into the tube and get the pilot in there as well.  Before you pick a tube, pick a pilot... Then talk to the chute manufacturer to understand how much volume you need for your chute. Diest did all that for us 40 years ago... then the chute grew, and pilots grew and it got hard to pack....  That is why Stan suggested you can't have too much room in the chute tube.
Our liner had chute tubes that were larger in the front than the rear... thought about the same type for this car but that is just one more thing to build. 
Incidentally, I found 5 inch schedule 5 304 Stainless at Pittsburgh Steel Products, they have a $150 minimum, but they had a 7 ft drop, so I now have some extra tube coming...  Yes I spent more than I wanted but I will have plenty of extra for the new liner, and maybe some for someone else... I have enough for 3.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on November 28, 2018, 03:10:30 AM
Thanks Sparky, Stainless

Sorry to hijack your build thread.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 28, 2018, 09:33:48 AM
LM... there are no hijacks of build threads... there is just discussion that might wander as questions and answers arrive...  :roll:
You will see this in all the builds on this site... and one thing leads to another.... although my favorite distractions head toward food and beer.... which reminds me... if anyone ends on the big island Hawaii, Big Island Brewhaus in Waimea has the best beer on the island.... Yes, better than Kona.... drank my last bottle (with friends) of Black Whole... a barrel aged stout... thick and rich... yummmmm
See  8-)  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Elmo Rodge on November 28, 2018, 11:06:39 AM
I'm hijacking your Build Diary to say that I'm bottling a batch of P-38 Porter today.  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 28, 2018, 11:30:45 AM
I'm hijacking your Build Diary to say that I'm bottling a batch of P-38 Porter today.  :cheers:
Wayno
That's not a hijack - that's a public service announcement.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 28, 2018, 09:03:53 PM
I'm hijacking your Build Diary to say that I'm bottling a batch of P-38 Porter today.  :cheers:
Wayno
That's not a hijack - that's a public service announcement.  :cheers:

Any of that going to make it all the way to Bonneville....  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: SPARKY on November 28, 2018, 09:42:41 PM
How bout a stocking stuffer for SS1. :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 28, 2018, 10:29:46 PM
How bout a stocking stuffer for SS1. :-D

I'll drink to that... especially P-38  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on November 29, 2018, 08:29:07 AM
I'm hijacking your Build Diary to say that I'm bottling a batch of P-38 Porter today.  :cheers:
Wayno
Send Bob`s share to Rev.Jer...It`ll be safe `til August :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Elmo Rodge on November 29, 2018, 08:53:34 AM
Come aaaaand geeeet iiiiit.  :lol:  :cheers:
Wayno
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on November 30, 2018, 08:52:19 PM
Subject change... car construction....  :-D
The grommets arrived so I could finish the upper brackets for the water tank... there is one more set that goes on the parachute tube... Jerry, I tried to find those in tubing, but they aren't square... but I will keep looking, I think the ones on the parachute tube are hiding in a piece of square tube  :wink:

Made a piece to connect the top tubes, it is about 3/8 inch behind the water tank and will be a connection point for the chute tube.  The tubing will be in Monday says Brown Santa... 

I am still going to cut 2 inches off the top tubes, that third tube is the push bar receptacle.  It will sit close to that height above the chute tube... I cut some v plates to connect it to the top tubes.  It may be time to cut the top tubes, I don't think they should go anywhere when I cut off the part that connects the back due to the cross bar I put in there.
Yep, the plan is still a little fluid.... good thing I'm not working from a drawing   :roll: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on December 01, 2018, 12:47:22 PM
Progress. Great to see you're getting somewhere. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Peter Jack offered to help me on my project early on and wanted me to send
him my plans. I was too embarrassed to tell him there weren't any. Sorry Pete. :oops:
I used the Kiwi Belly Tank method. :-D

No hijack intended.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 02, 2018, 08:09:13 PM
Surprise... Brown Santa showed up last night a couple of days early with a long box.  Had a party to attend last night so I got a late start this morning  :| and opened it up.  The 5 inch schedule 5 304 stainless pipe is here. 
Before I cleaned it up I sliced 25 inches off for the chute tube and then I cleaned both pieces up a little.  The long piece went on the rack, the short piece is headed to the car.  Yes it is hard to cut that size on a 4.5 inch saw... required a move to finish the cut.

Ok, starting to fit it into the  car... welded an end cap for the tube, with a drain hole.  Eventually it will be welded in, but not before a few brackets are attached.  The water tank will have it's last two brackets attached, the chute release bracket will be added and the inertia kill bracket. 

I also made an end cap for the top tubes with a passage for the electric/manual chute release...

next up I'll put the water tank back in and see where brackets go.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: salt27 on December 02, 2018, 08:36:27 PM
Stainless, PM sent.

  Don
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on December 03, 2018, 12:23:43 AM
That's a lovely saw. I'd love one.
This place has 220v but my neighbours who don't have machinery all have more. :evil:

Looking good. I love your build. All class.
I learned something as well. The drain hole. :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on December 03, 2018, 09:30:13 AM
WTF ???   El Kabong take a break?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: mc2032 on December 03, 2018, 09:37:26 AM
My bad, I left the dead blow hammer on the mill when we (Stainless) were "adjusting" the Sportster carb jetting.  Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on December 03, 2018, 10:38:12 AM
My bad, I left the dead blow hammer on the mill when we (Stainless) were "adjusting" the Sportster carb jetting.  Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Also an appropriate tool for reactivating an SU electric fuel pump. 

In fact, back in the day, if you ordered an MG with wire wheels, the factory included one with the tool kit.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 03, 2018, 10:43:47 AM
WTF ???   El Kabong take a break?

Sorry Jerry, but I did mention I don't pose pics... El Kabong was actually on the top rail behind the tube.  

Mike, I close out the tubes to keep salt out.... the other option is keep them completely open so they can be washed out.  A tube with one end open... like the chute tube needs a way to get the salt or rinse water out... Salt will go everywhere...
Our original frame lasted 40 years without rusting in two... plan is to make this one last longer.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on December 03, 2018, 10:44:22 AM
My bad, I left the dead blow hammer on the mill when we (Stainless) were "adjusting" the Sportster carb jetting.  Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Also an appropriate tool for reactivating an SU electric fuel pump. 

In fact, back in the day, if you ordered an MG with wire wheels, the factory included one with the tool kit.

Chris, those hammers work on Ferrari 250GTE Fispa electric fuel pumps too.  :-D

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on December 03, 2018, 01:38:01 PM
That's what is so good about the forum. You learn stuff.
Stainless, I would have had to jack a 40' car to get water
out of the chute tubes. :-D :-D :-D :-D

I drilled them today. Thanks a bunch.👍
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 03, 2018, 08:15:10 PM
Mounted the water tank, marked the chute front bracket where it needs trimmed.... made the brackets that go on the tube for the tank mounts.  Jerry, I found those in a piece of tubing.... thanks.  I can't weld them on the tube till I get the grommets for the back mounts.  Worked on the push bar mount and welded the tops of the close-outs for the upper tubes.  Started on the push bar...

I may have to clean up a little, put stuff away so I can spin the car and weld some of the bottom stuff... I struggle with "in position" welding... out of position welding always sucks  :-o

If I find some grommets in town I might get enough done tomorrow to take a couple of pics.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 04, 2018, 09:36:57 PM
Well after 4 hours of searching... I found a couple of grommets that would work if I modified my plan.  Seemed that all of the 1/2 inch panel hole with 3/8 center hole grommets were a small outside diameter and not very thick.  I'm using them for vibration isolation and expansion allowance... so I wanted large and thick.  These last brackets are .060 stainless, and the  1/2 inch grommet hole just grew to 5/8 and now I can keep going.  I put a heavy tack on them, and will finish welding when the tube comes back out... one of the next 10 times  :roll:  I have a couple more parts that mount on the tube, a little welding on other parts and then the tube goes in permanently.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on December 04, 2018, 11:50:38 PM
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on December 05, 2018, 08:40:18 AM
Little buggers were right there in a piece of tubing weren`t they ?  Looks great (as always) Bob
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 05, 2018, 08:47:36 AM
Little buggers were right there in a piece of tubing weren't they ?  Looks great (as always) Bob
Yes they were and interestingly enough, the tube is the same, or close enough, diameter as the grinder wheel on the grinder my neighbor gave me when he moved.  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on December 05, 2018, 10:43:50 AM
You have nicer neighbors than do I....A hole saw works great on those and when located properly, You end up with matching left/right pcs.  Carry on
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 05, 2018, 10:36:29 PM
Jerry, he gave me a drill press and a bunch of other stuff as well... he was running out of space in the place he was moving to.  Of course his son questioned giving all that stuff away but he told him if he gave it to me he could just come to my shop if he needed to use it.  I do a little welding and make a few farm parts as well as repairing tractors and combines around the neighborhood.  It is all done on the barter system... it is handy too have a backhoe, dump truck, tractor with a blade and bucket and an unlimited supply of manure for the garden when the barn gets mucked out.  I have several good neighbors....  :-D

I used a hole saw on the end caps, but the largest I have is 5 inches.... and it needs a bit of massage to fit the 5.56 tube.  That hole saw is not deep enough to cut through tube. I cut it with the band saw and used the grinder to make it better.  But I know where to look for a thousand future brackets I'm going to need before this deal is done.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on December 06, 2018, 10:09:18 AM
Stainless, if you need another source for brackets, try AA Manufacturing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 11, 2018, 09:34:14 PM
I know y'all think I must have joined the flat earth society and walked off the end  :| but actually I have been noodling, bracket racing and making parts to build a car  8-)

Of course I took the tube out and welded the water tank brackets, then I started laying out the chute release and all the sudden... well after a day or so...  it is ready to weld a more stuff on it.  It is still removable to make welding a little easier.  Yes Martha, I will be cleaning up the old brackets and maybe "canodize" them to delay their inevitable fate.  All the brackets welded to the stainless tube are also stainless... but that might not keep me from painting the the tube, we will see.  I did not tack the release termination to the tube yet... it will make taking the tube out easier...
Ok here's pics
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 11, 2018, 10:41:17 PM
Since the first pic gave away that I had other stuff mounted I should show my unfinished work there too.
I started mounting the gas and intercooler tanks... leaving some room to expand the intercooler tank if I run out of things to do. 
The tube at the top has 5 threaded inserts welded in... some of the parts I've been making... 3 for the tank and 2 for other mounding uses.  I made and tacked in one of the lower mounts, the other side may double as a fuel pump mount... don't know yet but I'm thinking about it.  The pump you see is the intercooler pump.
The old car had a Holly Blue feeding the EFI pump, basically a lift pump, so I plan to mount the EFI pump low and eliminate the Holly Blue.... decreasing my electrical load.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 13, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
Built the cable stop for the manual chute release... looked around the shop for a piece of stainless bar... no luck, but I did have 3/4 stainless round, so I flattened 3 sides by .100, drilled a .106 hole thru it, milled a .250 hole about .550 deep and then I milled a .093 slot down the side to make installing and removing the cable easier... don't have to remove the clamp ends.
There is an adel clamp that holds the cable housing in place, I welded a flat mount for that to the cable stop, and both will be welded on the top of the cross bar after the tube is permanently installed in the next couple of days. 

Welded the pieces I had tacked to the chute tube... I am thinking about just tacking the tube in place because I know if I weld it in now I'll wish I hadn't when I need to attach something to the frame and the tube will be in the way  :x  :|

Yes I did other stuff, but nothing that looks like progress  :roll:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on December 14, 2018, 09:38:58 AM
That's a lot of work in a short time. :cheers:

Looks really good and I hope you don't mind me stealing with my eyes????.

Inspiration to get going on mine.

Thanks. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 20, 2018, 11:21:02 PM
Its been quiet from here, but that's because you don't need to see how some of the sausage is made  :-o
I found a Bosch fuel pump mount bracket online... cheaper that I could make one, so from there I made the parts to get it mounted on the fuel tank next to the intercooler water pump.

Finally got all the parts for the front axle made... Johnboy made the ends for the king pin holders... and spindle parts you will see some other time.  I got the king pin holders welded up, the axle cut and machined and welded one end on.... Will weld the other end tomorrow... I can't fixture it for welding and slow cool it...
Here's a peek under the blanket... the parts were preheated, welded and then slow cooled... that end was still 150 after 3+ hours... that ceramic blanket is really good stuff.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on December 21, 2018, 03:13:52 AM
Ceramic blanket is good.
Thanks for the update. :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on December 21, 2018, 08:27:30 PM
Nice looking welds Mr. Steele :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 21, 2018, 11:08:53 PM
The other end of the axle is under the blanket staying warm and snugly... then I pulled everything in the back apart again. After deciding how I will do the release strap I threw the chute tube in the mill to cut some notches in the tube to hold the release strap in place... yes no pictures...  I'm sure they will show up somewhere along the line as this continues.
Johnboy is making a few more parts in Denver... of course I'm ready for them....
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 29, 2018, 10:01:56 PM
Been welding stuff and making parts the last couple of days.  Both ends of the axle have been back under the blanket... I added the gussets on the ends....
I also welded the chute tube in... I mentioned I would show the end, so here ya go. 
Johnboy sent so parts via Brown Santa... hope to get those soon...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 30, 2018, 11:40:48 PM
OK, next step for the front axle is to set caster angle, and mark the setscrew divots that will make it easier to assemble and disassemble with repeatability.
So to get to that point the axle is clamped in the holders, measured to be in the center, with the 4 bar parallel to the frame.  After several measurements, moves and calculations I think I'm there.
Then the steering box mount and Watts link mount was centered between the axle holders and by some minor miracle, it all went back together like it was before. 
I checked the range of motion, the axle stayed centered like it should with a Watts link that is working in the middle of its range.
The caster is set to 12 degrees... I mounted the spindles... I need to find or make some new copper or brass washers that we use as bearing surfaces....  the original caster we used was 36, and that is what the other tie rod mounts you see are set for.  The ones to the rear will work at several angles but 12 is what they were built for. 
Yep I won't get into the discussion of what caster is best... I personally like the way the 36 drove... it was like having stops for minimum steering... but it came with its own issues that you see in old flopper dragsters... so I'll go with 12, we had that for a couple of years and it was not a problem...  the car was stable and drove well.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on December 30, 2018, 11:51:11 PM
I guess I should have mentioned the 1.25 bar you see in the second picture.  That is close to planned ride height... the first pic had the axle at the bottom of travel... full droop I think that is called by suspension guys...
Making a little progress every day is a good goal  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on December 31, 2018, 06:10:42 AM
You're on a serous vein of good form.
The build is coming on in leaps and bounds. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: 7707 on December 31, 2018, 07:37:16 AM
Can’t wait to see it under its own power running down the salt. It’s 7 months away ... lol
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 02, 2019, 09:57:25 PM
Hopefully it is almost 8 months  :roll: gonna need every day I'll bet...
Moved to the back of the car, welded the push bar and gussets in.... Had a tube blow out... then it occurred to me that the right side  is sealed up aft of the engine compartment due to the removable frame.  So I went to the spot where the tubes were joined... and drilled a .060 hole through the tube and spud.... now there is a spot for the pressure to escape and no more issues... I could drill that one bigger and make another rosebud there if I want.
If you think it looks short, that is not parallax error, I have not decided if I'm doing another skate wheel or something else.
While that cooled, I moved back to the front and started the steering set up.... The front axle is a little farther up than is can go.  From there I left about an inch on the double d slider to ensure it can't bottom out on the slider.
 I am planning a 1.5 x 1 x .125 crossmember where the steering reducer mounts... it will double as leg restraint... and I guess I used all my stock getting the floor in, so off to the Yard to pick up another 24 ft stick... by the time I got back, the back was cool, the sun was down and the leftover frozen Thanksgiving turkey and stock that I assembled into turkey green chili after supper last night was calling my name.  It coupled well with the Chili Homebrew that Ross left at the house a couple of weeks ago....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on January 03, 2019, 08:17:17 AM
Looking good Bob...Is that a Sweet steering reducer??  Remind me to tell you a rather amusing Randy Sweet story some time... :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 03, 2019, 08:34:28 AM
Great progress; I am coming over to SW 2019 and I expect to be able to see Bockscar 2.0 in person (please).  :-D

Are the 4 bars terminated with 5/8" or 1/2" rose joints (heim) - I suspect the larger size is the norm and would like to know why as that seems like something you'd find on a 1.5 ton pickup rear (oh, like a '56 3100 Apache for example) rather than a svelte race car.  :?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 03, 2019, 10:31:50 AM
LJ, yes those heims are heavy duty.... chromoly body, kevlar lining  5/8 thread x 1/2 inch bearing.  We always go a little heavy duty on suspension.  When you are going straight it is not necessary, but sometimes you don't and that is when it is...  :-o keeping the axles where you planned them is high on the list of important things.  
The sliding pieces we discussed on your thread are what you see as well.  Those we salvaged from a collapsible steering column.  

Expecting some stuff from Brown Santa today... Johnboy cut some pieces for the rear rockers and the last parts for the chute release.  I have also been doing a lot of small pieces that are parts to be used later, still plenty to do.  
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 03, 2019, 10:43:48 AM
Mercy Buckets.  :cheers:

Or, as the French might write it, Merci Beaucoup, but then again they are not known for there spelling.  :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 03, 2019, 10:48:38 AM
I accidentally found a UK hot rod store with the correct sized steering UJ's (Borgeson) to DD fittings and they supply the telescoping 3/4" DD shaft too so that solves that and I thank you for the direction - option A was to mix and match, option B will be much cleaner.

The outer sleeve D is 1" - I assume a short length of 3/4" is welded in that end to insert in the UJ and clamp on to.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 07, 2019, 09:38:25 PM
Just been making parts that will show up here at some point... the rockers for the rear suspension got finished today.... made the centers and then welded them to the parts Johnboy sent.... of course the bearings won't press in after welding... might have to hone or rebore. 
Made the mount for the steering "slower" that led to the mount for the clutch and brake.  Yes, when I get all the parts put in and tacked, I'll get a pic.   

Jerry, it is not a Sweet, but same design...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 08, 2019, 10:55:50 PM
The rear rockers I mentioned shrank the bearing bores during welding... looks like the center is still on the number but the top and bottom third make sort of an hourglass.  John Goodman (GGL205) was over today, suggested I could ream the holes.  We went to his house and checked his adjustable reamer... no joy... tried the Yard and the Aircraft Tool Yard... no joy again.  We headed to Mires Tool, he thought he had a 1.1250 reamer, nope he must have sold that and didn't remember... But in his surplus tools he had  a 4 straight flute 1.125 cutter with carbide blades.... so for $10 I said I'd give it a try.  Did I mention it had a large morse taper..... I got it centered in the lathe and cut the morse taper top down to .875.  I probably don't need to tell ya how hard it is to straight cut one of those tapers on a tool... made little blue hairs and killed 2 corners on the insert... but it looks like chrome where I cut it.  then it got chucked in the 3 Jaw and supported with the live center and it reamed like a champ.  
Is it me... or does that look a little dangerous...  :roll:

Pressed the bearings in and and now the rear suspension can be figured out.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 08, 2019, 11:24:02 PM
Yes the rockers should look like the front ones... no need to reinvent the wheel.

The parts I've made for the cockpit needed a fit check so I moved up there and popped it all together... and managed to remember to take a couple of pics there as well...

The steering shaft from the old steering wheel mount was bent up a little but it is good enough to help figure out what I might need.

Then we have the brake and clutch mount as well steering slower mount.... Yep it is on a slider to accommodate from my size to Jon Amo.  I have been in the car multiple times and modifying ideas till I ended up here.

And finally the view down the seat to the front.  I am adapting the old seat... modifying as required to make it work.  The front seat pieces need mods to fit...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 12, 2019, 09:51:06 PM
Made the tie rods, still playing with the set up for the steering... as soon as I have the wheel set for me, I think everyone else will be able to space from that.  The pedals are set that way... long enough for me with the ability to make them shorter.

finally got the parachute retainer made... I think everything is ready there except wiring.... we are a long way from wiring...  :|
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 12, 2019, 09:53:38 PM
Let's see if I can get this posted...
https://youtu.be/pvjW6DW-KhE (https://youtu.be/pvjW6DW-KhE)


There ya go.... that is how it works.... I'll load a chute and pilot one of these days
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 13, 2019, 06:48:50 PM
Everything is looking good :-D. Looks like the chute releases with authority :cheers:

Johnboy
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on January 13, 2019, 07:04:49 PM
Is that CNC gas pedal the hydraulic one?.

All looking good Stainless.👍👍👍👍
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 13, 2019, 07:28:58 PM
Is that CNC gas pedal the hydraulic one?.

All looking good Stainless.👍👍👍👍

It is the Morse cable gas pedal 

Johnboy
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on January 14, 2019, 06:42:12 AM
On the chute webbing - is the yellow one elastic which is why it slingshots?
Assuming the pilot chute is sprung is there sufficient tension to 'hold it in' or is there a cover (triangular handkerchief) to be incorporated?

The grey rod under the assembly that bounces after release - is that part of the mechanism or just an innocent bystander?

Many thanks - this whole parachute thing is new to me and a long way in my future. Trying to understand as much as I can in advance but then again my brain will only hold so much at a time (i.e. not a lot). As a result I have reams of notes, drawings and references.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 14, 2019, 09:43:03 AM
The parachute has a spring loaded pilot... the yellow part of the retainer/releaser is made from flat bungee cord.  I will load the chute to make it more clear.  If you look back a little you will see the electric release (with mechanical backup) so you see how it is done.   
I had to watch it several times to figure out the grey rod thing.... it is the water tank rubber overflow vent tube... innocent bystander... and the clips that hold the retainers will not swing either, they will be fixed when the bolt is tightened.  That bolt also retains the parachute bridle to the car. 

I am still noodleing the steering wheel mount... made a couple pieces yesterday that I didn't like... back to the napkin.... :roll:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: mc2032 on January 18, 2019, 05:52:43 PM
Kinda sums up any given work night at Stainless'.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on January 18, 2019, 08:04:21 PM
The parachute has a spring loaded pilot... the yellow part of the retainer/releaser is made from flat bungee cord.  I will load the chute to make it more clear.  If you look back a little you will see the electric release (with mechanical backup) so you see how it is done.   
I had to watch it several times to figure out the grey rod thing.... it is the water tank rubber overflow vent tube... innocent bystander... and the clips that hold the retainers will not swing either, they will be fixed when the bolt is tightened.  That bolt also retains the parachute bridle to the car. 

I am still noodleing the steering wheel mount... made a couple pieces yesterday that I didn't like... back to the napkin.... :roll:
 :cheers:

You spend time on something and your gut says it's not right but you hope and go through the motions. I dumped four versions of the same junk I made yesterday. A simple bracket for a throttle body return spring!!!!
Back to the napkin here too. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 18, 2019, 10:07:00 PM
OK, here is what I think I could end up with in the steering department... Those are snap ring grooves... unless they are in the sleeve, then they are grease grooves.... the first pic is the distance that I would use for the wheel, then the pic for shorter arms... been thrashing adjust-ability... finally decided this will work... each space is 1/4 inch... if we need more than a couple of inches I can space the mount.  It is just tacked till I decide it this is it...

Finished the tie rods as well
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on January 19, 2019, 04:39:17 PM
That looks so good.

Thanks for the motivation. God Bless. :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 22, 2019, 11:15:28 PM
Been working on the rear suspension... noodling how and where everything goes while using as much of the old axle as possible.  It will be using rockers  (seen a page back) and look a lot like the front suspension.  I have made a few parts and have a few more to make.... and some to modify... pictures maybe in a couple of days.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 24, 2019, 11:35:47 PM
OK, the start of the rear axle... been making and modifying parts to get to this point... most of today was spent making the shock brackets and the push rods.  Previously I modified the axle mounts... if you look back far enough you will see the original brackets... I had to eliminate to top hole on the mount brackets to be able to get the push rods a spot to attach. 
The lower cross member was a bit of a pain... it is in the part of the curve that pinches at about 5 degrees per side... the upper is in the part that pinches at about 3 degrees per side. 
The axle should be at the top of its travel in the pictures
Next up on my to do list is the brackets to hold the rocker
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on January 27, 2019, 09:58:35 AM
While trying to get the suspension all lined up the numbers were not adding up...  so started checking and... crap... the rear axle was 1/8 to the left... since everything had been apart, I checked it all again including flipping the swingarm over.... with the swingarm flipped, the axle was 1/8 to the right. 
So the swingarm is not made centered.... something must have moved when I was tacking it all up.... a long time ago...  and I didn't notice till now...
So I have a plan... first I will build new mounts that are wide enough to be laterally adjustable with shims.  I basically need to be able to move the arm over 1/16.  Then get the swing arm bracing welded... after I decide how to do that... my options are brace it with the open braces seen in several of the pictures or build a box brace for it.... then if welding doesn't warp the swingarm and it still fits the axle I can center it up and then get back to the suspension. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 03, 2019, 10:17:26 PM
Figured the swing arm error out... and how it happened... built the new mounts and now the arm is square centered with the centerline of the car.... and adjustable... which may come in handy when I weld the braces on the swingarm... if it pulls in a little due to welding. 
The old mount is the one on the rail...  the new mount is wider and made with 1/4 steel instead of .188.  I made it with a pinch slider... currently has 3/4 washers as spacers... but when I'm happy that I have everything correct, I will turn a spacer so make it easier to assemble. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 03, 2019, 10:52:37 PM
When all that was done... back to suspension... the structure pieces are in with heavy tacks, the brackets are all welded.  I am set up for a little more than 2 inches of suspension travel at the axle.  I also threw a spring on the shock just to see what it will look like... which is all I can do with that spring in there because the axle won't move unless I get a lot stronger...  :roll:
I have a little welding to do... although I will probably remove a bunch of stuff to make it easier.  I will install my K legs on the swing arm while is out.  I need to weld some close outs on the ends of the swingarm tubes to help with torsion strength according to my new next door neighbor.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 10, 2019, 09:24:47 AM
Welded in a bunch of the tacked structure pieces... made some small 1/3 circles pieces to close out the tubes where they attach to the 5/8 steel.... that added 3 inches of weld to each tube to help prevent those thick pieces from tearing out of the tube.  Welded the K braces in the swingarm... used up about an inch of tungsten welding the narrow valleys  :oops: what a PITA....
Put the swingarm back in... everything still fits... it is currently spaced with washers, they get it centered within .015... I may make spacers if time permits later... but it is close enough to work fine.
I think it may be time to fit an engine in there...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on February 10, 2019, 05:49:43 PM
Looking good Bob.

You're really going now.

Makes me feel bad about falling behind. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 10, 2019, 10:29:27 PM
Mike, there is no ahead or behind in building LSR special construction cars... or any LSR car for that matter.... I should be building faster... but I'm not.... there is almost as much inspiration as perspiration in one of these, got to do it as you envision it.

So I grabbed one of my junk motors... threw a head on it and started figuring out how I will install motors in this car.  I really wanted to do a cartridge type system in this car... kinda like the Speed Demon but all the motors I might use are not the same basic design... but I think I can do something like the old car... basically put some bolt blocks in and them build motor mounts to fit as required. 
The old car was based on the blocks we welded in back in 1984 to mount the 1983 Honda Interceptor bike inside the car... we continued to use part of that Honda frame with our Kawasaki motors all the way into early 2002 when we converted to Suzuki motors.
I have a few ideas I will explore...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 15, 2019, 11:20:47 PM
I think I have the rear motor mounts conceived... the upper rear mounting structure is in place and ready to weld... the lower will be similar, I will start making parts for it tomorrow.  Then I will need to make mounting brackets and connect the motor.
Still thinking about front mounts
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 17, 2019, 09:27:33 PM
Still have a little to do with the lower mounting structure but here is what it should be....

Then I pulled out the air box for NA motors to make sure everything fits.  It is a little close, but we will see what happens with the exhaust.  Not sure I have the correct tilt on the motor, so I will need to check the exhaust fits.  I also need to toss the turbo motor in and maybe use it to line up everything.  Worst case, I will have NA motor mounts and turbo mounts to make everything fit.  Our goal is to not have motor bumps on the upper cover... it is looking pretty good.  Motor could be more forward is necessary.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 18, 2019, 08:46:45 PM
Made some more motor mount pieces today as well as played with other stuff.... can't tell from the pic, but those are made from angle... hangs over the other side

short day, Fred had to visit the Vet to update his shots...  Yea it is cold here today
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on February 19, 2019, 08:33:40 AM
Fred's look is priceless!  :cheers:
"You let that guy stick needles in my Acura again?" :? :-o :x
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ggl205 on February 19, 2019, 12:14:57 PM
That is the same look I get when they stick needles in my Acura, Woody. Same look for prostate exams too.

Stainless, Fred is looking pretty darn good.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 19, 2019, 11:11:45 PM
John, Fred is hanging in there... getting used to the handicap ramp I built for him... his hair is growing back enough that you almost can't tell where they shaved him for back surgery.  Still has a little coordination issue front to back so he skips every now and then when he walks... but getting better all the time.

Worked most of today on engine positioning.... left, right as well as up, down in the front and back.  To do that I installed the exhaust header to ensure it would fit as well.  Got it close to where I want it and started working on finishing the back motor mounts.  Have pieces for the uppers on the mill.  Pictures when the uppers are done.  The motors were a very tight fit in the old car... there is not a lot more room in the new car.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 21, 2019, 11:23:21 PM
Top rear mounts are done... Will start on lowers and/or fronts tomorrow. 
The idea for the mounts on this car is eliminate the angle pieces.  The old car had mounts attached to verticals on each side of the frame.  It was almost crazy fitting pieces together to  cover the distance.  The last pic is the 1K motor mount for the old car.

Easier to keep everything square with square mounts.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on February 22, 2019, 11:30:25 PM
Bob, You're giving me a guilt complex already.
You aren't hanging around. Awesome progress.

Neat work and the parts look great. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on February 28, 2019, 11:14:34 PM
Been working on motor mounts... fronts were a chore, at least deciding how I will do them was a chore.  I built a couple of mount blocks and welded them in the car square.  They have threaded holes that can be used from the inside and/or bottom.  I machined a channel in them so they fit the tube, then clamped a bar across both sides... that made them rotate to square.
I have to weld the inside after the motor comes out, but you should get the idea.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 02, 2019, 10:35:03 PM
Have one of the front motor mounts almost finished, the other is on the bench ready to be welded.  

I've also been working on getting replacement front wheels... we are closer every day... Picked up a bunch of aluminum today.  Started prepping it to send to Podunk.... should go out Monday.  
The wheels we have are tube type... Terry will be making tubeless type,  with integral moon style caps.  
Many thanks to Tom Burkland for his valuable input.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 03, 2019, 11:09:25 PM
Welded the left side front mount... looks a like the right side mount only different  :-o 

Spent a bit of time cutting corners... off the aluminum square plates.... not only trying to get them to fit USPS flat rate boxes, but I also need to get the weight within the limits... I'll take the heavy one down to the P.O. and see what I have. 
Yep, I checked UPS, they were a little pricey to ship 180 or so pounds of aluminum... If can get it in 3 flat rate boxes... and that works, it is about 1/3 the cost....
I can use the savings to buy a really nice bottle of whiskey and a couple of cases of craft beer.... life is about perspective  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Podunk on March 04, 2019, 10:22:58 AM
Stainless,
Pickup a pint of Bacardi and a 6 pack of Pepsi and we'll talk about return freight.

Podunk
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 04, 2019, 09:59:27 PM
Well, making progress...  Here is the mount I mentioned... yes it does look like a mirror of the other....

What did I do in the shop today.... cut up aluminum... OK, the saw runs unattended so I am doing other things while it cuts.... I have a small pile of tailings under the saw... but I am getting there.   One box is packed and under 70 lbs.... working on the next box... trying hard to make under 70.  The first weigh out of #2 was 74.... the first piece was trimmed out and in the box at 34... should be about the same with the second. 

Terry, you will sweep up 3/4 of what I send you... return should be light.... I'll try to remember to bring rum n coke to the races...
Johnboy's employer gets a rate with FedEx... they were nearly $200...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 16, 2019, 11:19:32 PM
In case you think I've been sitting around eating Bon Bons, drinking craft beer and sipping Irish whiskey you should know I don't eat Bon Bons.  :-o
But I have been working on the seat and interior liner.  The goal is reuse as much as the seat as possible so I have been fitting Dzus tabs and in some cases, drilling new holes, cutting and re-bending parts. 
Here are a few pics of where I am.... no I'm not done, this is a slow process... hard to hold, mark, tack weld and drill without a helper.

Yes it is starting to get a little crowded in there
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: salt27 on March 17, 2019, 12:39:39 AM
Happy Birthday Stainless   :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on March 17, 2019, 06:22:06 AM
Thanks for the reminder, Don, and Many Happy Returns of the Day to you, Mr. Stainless, Sir!  Happy Birthday.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: mc2032 on March 17, 2019, 07:45:09 AM
Happy Birthday Bob! 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 17, 2019, 10:03:41 AM
Thanks for the reminder, Don, and Many Happy Returns of the Day to you, Mr. Stainless, Sir!  Happy Birthday.

How hard can it be to remember your birthday  :roll: Happy Birthday to you as well Slim...  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: salt27 on March 17, 2019, 10:25:38 AM
Thanks for the reminder, Don, and Many Happy Returns of the Day to you, Mr. Stainless, Sir!  Happy Birthday.

How hard can it be to remember your birthday  :roll: Happy Birthday to you as well Slim...  :cheers:

Come on Stainless, give our senior citizen a break    :evil:  Happy Birthday to you also Slim.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 23, 2019, 10:58:56 AM
Still working on interior panel dzus fasteners... slow and painful...
I might be ready to pull the car off the frame jig soon... to do that, I will have to strip it to bare frame... I guess I will be able to get some parts painted while they are off.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 26, 2019, 10:06:50 AM
I have 1 dzus left... but need the car upside down or at least more accessible than it is now.  It can be done after everything but the interior panels are stripped out and the car is cut off the jig.
To check that I could snake a throttle cable in there I just installed it.  Works as required without the spare spring attached so when I attach that 6th spring (4 on TBs, 1 on pedal already) it will probably take a finger off if you have it in the TB when it snaps shut. 
the pics
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 29, 2019, 12:12:59 AM
Started on the roll bar cap.... for a little extra protection to keep things out in case something untoward happens....making those were a PITA... I guess all the angles  complicate things, but they are all finally tacked in
I will make the parts to close the back in next...  unless something easier presents itself first  :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 29, 2019, 10:16:00 PM
Continued with making the back piece which is also firewall... the little filler piece took a while, but thanks to MC2032 (Ross), he came up with the way to draw the pattern... part is made but didn't get it installed... Linda called with supper ready.... finish it tomorrow... with any luck
I never weld well after a couple of beers.  :-o  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Jack Gifford on March 29, 2019, 10:29:02 PM
How did you form the roll? Metal spinning?
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: wobblywalrus on March 29, 2019, 10:32:45 PM
Happy Birthday, Stainless.  That car is coming along well.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 30, 2019, 12:00:54 AM
Jack, if you look back a couple of pics you can notice lines that almost look like beading.... I used a 3 inch die in a roll press brake... just enough press to curve the panel... the "beads" stiffened it also.  I was going to run it over to a friends place and use a roller, but  getting them right might have taken multiple trips...
Thanks Bo  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on March 30, 2019, 10:20:15 PM
Spent part of the day getting the back plate installed in the correct position... only had to cut off a couple of tacks in the process  :roll:  Ross came over to help...
but first we had to run my car trailer over to Max (Kansas Bad Man) so he could haul his old Bonneville use pickup to his grandson about 105 miles away.  Yes it is drivable... but the gas tank has a rust hole in it that often leaks gas... I guess when it stops another chunk of rust has moved into the hole...  :-D  So Ross and I went over, hooked up the trailer to Max's truck, loaded and tied down the old truck and sent him off to Moline.
Then we went back to my shop... got it sorted out... welded it up while it was easy and tacked it in place. 
I'll start welding all the plates in tomorrow.... after I add a few more tacks to the back plate.
Some days you get more done than others  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on March 31, 2019, 05:50:50 AM
That looks more like my roll cage does than my roll cage.
Great minds think alike hey Bob!!!!!. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

According to the Boss that's the only way to go.👍👍👍👍

Looks great.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 01, 2019, 11:00:34 AM
Stitch welded the caps... Yes your eyes are not deceiving you, the stitches are not all the same length and evenly spaced  :| I guess that's because the tacks were not done with that in mind... I was just trying to get the in place after reshaping them multiple times.  :-o
After I get the motor back out I will weld the upper firewall/back cover to the frame cross tube... that will finish sealing that part of the firewall.
Thinking about the lower firewall.  I think I will weld in a perimeter frame and bolt in the wall ensuring a water tight seal around the tubes.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 02, 2019, 10:13:07 PM
Started working on the shifter... 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on April 03, 2019, 12:06:33 AM
Looking great Bob.👍👍👍
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 11, 2019, 10:24:46 PM
Haven't posted lately.... so here is some of the stuff I've been working on.  Have the shifter squared away, figured out where everything for it will go. 
I rerouted the cooling water hose to not run under the chain like it did with the original. 
Yes that's a chain... it is easier to work everything with the chain first.... then I will look at doing the belt if I have time.  Right now I will be impressed if I'm ready in August  :|
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 11, 2019, 10:28:18 PM
And the updated shift cylinder.... with an actual mount
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on April 12, 2019, 12:37:31 AM
Stainless, you're making amazing progress. Good job!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I'm enjoying your thorough documentation.

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on April 12, 2019, 07:37:03 AM
^^^ Me too
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 13, 2019, 11:12:11 PM
Thanks guys... it is a build diary after all  :cheers:

So along with all the little other things going on with the car (like tab making) we are actually thinking about putting a body on it...  :roll:  Pork Pie has been doing a little drawing work in CATIA and from that he developed step data... something we can use to CNC mill foam for nose, top and canopy building.  Johnboy has a guy at his work that can take that and pop out a PDF... So we are looking at what we need for body...  Of course Pork Pie is in Germany, Johnboy in Colorado and I'm in Kansas so the process is almost seamless  :roll:  
Based on a bunch of pictures of the old car, Pork Pie drew this up for the new one... produced data... it was converted to PDF and on page 2 we have a couple of slices of the cross section.  Then my frequent helper Ross (MC2032) printed out the cross sections full size, mounted them on 1/8 inch plywood and cut them out.  The plan was to see if the body would fit over the cage and engine.  
As it turns out, AA is about 7 inches behind the front of the cage, BB is ahead of the Engine and CC is over the engine.  
As it turned out, AA did not quite fit over the cage, BB fit the cage fine, but was a little short so it needed to be cut to 1/8 past the red line.  CC is too large... we will not need that much room around the engine.
Pork Pie will be adjusting and we will make some more templates to ensure they clear everything.  
If none of this makes sense... I've had a few so  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 16, 2019, 08:58:34 AM
We've been working on top and canopy shape as well as everything else that needs to be done.  Thinking about how I'm doing the lower firewall... want to make it removable, but also well sealed...

Got the hinge for the canopy tacked in... cant reach that end of the car with the TIG, so tack was done with the MIG... it seems to be really good for tacks.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 22, 2019, 10:43:41 PM
Well it is time for another perspective....  :cheers:
We cut the car loose from the build table and gave it a 90 degree flip, did a little of the welding that was too "out of position" for me.  Flipped it  to the opposite side for a little more welding... Next I have a ton of clean up in the big shop so I can roll the table outside, rotate it 180 and push it back in to finish the welding around the nose.
Almost done with the table.... anyone need a 29 inch by 25 ft build table....
As soon as the welding is done the car will be on the cart to get the suspension back in
Then it is time to head to the Gym.... for a little body building  :roll:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 23, 2019, 09:17:41 PM
I spent a little time today cleaning the shops and making a path to roll the car out.  Ross (MC2032) dropped by for a beer so we pushed it out of the small shop, through the big shop to outside, turned it around and put it back in the small shop... the nose by the welder.  Have a few welds to finish... then a few Dzus tabs that are just tacked to weld.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on April 30, 2019, 11:02:13 PM
I think I have all the unfinished welds done... of course every time I think that, I find another one  :|

You notice I said unfinished... because I have a little more structure to add near the tail.... as suggested by our structural engineer... just to tie the upper and lower rails together with more than the chute tube. 
Then it will be back to the firewall rev 2.... or is that 3.... maybe 4

I did not like the way the steering fit with the slower'er so I added a u-joint and it slides and fits a lot better.  Well yes that looks a little odd, the car is on its side... I'll flip it back over tomorrow... with any luck it will get all that out of its system  8-)
Don't worry, there is still plenty to keep me busy and off the streets  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 02, 2019, 05:13:42 PM
Finished the steering pieces, Still need to flip the car, to the other side to make sure everything is welded...
In the mean time my change 2 or so to the firewall is starting to look like I want it to.  I made the sides wider so penetrations would only go thru one layer and they will stay fixed in place if the firewall is removed.  It is not ready to weld in yet, have to put the bolt holes in... that will all be easier before it is installed forever...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on May 02, 2019, 08:01:59 PM
Looking great Bob. You've been busy man. Awesome progress. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 03, 2019, 09:40:51 PM
Finished the push bar... Ross (MC2032) had a couple of wheelie bar wheels from his old drag bike he contributed to the cause... they were a little thick, but the lathe fixed that issue.  They appear to be tougher than the inline skate wheels we used in the past.   

Yes, still working on the firewall.... thinking about using 1/4 inch bolts to hold the removable section to the weld in frame I made yesterday.  Drilling before welding... it will be easier
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 05, 2019, 08:18:05 PM
Alrighty.... marked and drilled holes for a center firewall, put it all together
The sides where electrical and hydraulics will pass through are fixed.... the center will remove for access if required. 
Decided to go ahead, line everything up and keep moving... been getting the welding caught up, I think everything forward of the firewall including the firewall is now welded.

I'll try to get the car swapped end for end to finish up the rear....
Or I will change the welder plug and receptacle so I can use the 125A extension cord I picked up  at the welding shop the other day.  If I do that, I can move the welder to the other end instead of moving the other end to the welder... long term, I think it might be a better use of my time.                                       
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: sabat on May 06, 2019, 08:34:01 AM
I'm sorry if you've posted this before, but do you think the 2.0 will be heavier than before? Did you have ballast on the last one?

It still amazes me that the Busa motor can push that much material so fast.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 06, 2019, 10:34:46 AM
The short answer is yes... probably...
We carried about 200 lbs, 80 up front, 60 on each side just behind the rear tires
This frame is definitely heavier... and quite frankly the run I went 246 made me start planning a new car... we knew too much about the old frame... yes, when Johnboy crashed it a couple of years ago it did remarkably well.  His crash was about 190 MPH... the frame twisted about 1/4 inch... based on the J bend in the 1/4 wall chromoly axle and Johnboy's complaining about how much he was hurting afterward... it crashed pretty hard.  Our fear was after 40 years since it's appearance on the salt the frame might be suffering a little cancer.  In the early days the frame was also part of the cooling system... after that the body was riveted to the frame in spots and we had a lot of unsealed tubes with bolt holes... so there was plenty of opportunity...  but it all stayed together and did its job
I expect this car to weigh a more without any ballast.  I won't know how much till it is on the scales.

The car has had a variety of motors... of the current record holders... the J motor, Kawasaki ZX-7... the I motors, Kawasaki ZX-10, Suzuki GSXR 1000 and Busa... H motors, Kawasaki ZX-11 and Suzuki Busa... the G motor, Suzuki Busa...
But we did not discriminate... it also had a Honda 750 Interceptor motor originally that held multiple records

I was asked the other day if I thought this one would be faster than the old one... I just hope it is as fast  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 07, 2019, 10:07:23 AM
Been working on new front wheels with Terry Mourer (Podunk) for the car... for those of you unfamiliar
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,12122.0.html

We are working toward tubeless tire wheels, spindle mount, for the small aircraft tires we use.  I sent some pics to Terry yesterday during our conversations that might have the effect of dragging him kicking and screaming toward a smartphone... but back to the Bockscar...

Terry carved out a profile for us to discuss... because it is hard to tell from a drawing what it will actually look like on the spindle when everything is really close...

I see wheels in our future...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Podunk on May 07, 2019, 06:47:59 PM
Sorry Stainless the last thinge I need is somthinge ellese that's smartter than me. All thou I realaty lice spill cheddar.
Podunk

 


   
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 07, 2019, 07:10:27 PM
Yeah, Terry, even though you type like you're from Kansas we still love you.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 07, 2019, 09:47:26 PM
Popped in the lap belt mounts.... had to slightly modify a 1/4 inch bracket I bought... was made for 1.5 tube, so it was a small trim with a hole saw to fit 1.625.... toughest part was holding it in the vice..

Also fitted some tubes to weld in the rear to add a little strength and more support for the parachute.  I'll weld those after the car is turned around....

Yes, you do remember I planned to change the electrical to be able to use my new extension cord for the welder... and I spent a little time on that... it seems the dumbass electrician that installed the welder receptacle did it in such a way that it is very hard to switch plugs...  :x  OK, the guy that built my shop was also the electrician.... OK that guy is the one I see anytime I use a mirror...  :|  Same guy also remembered that my emergency generator plugs into the welder receptacle to power the house when the lines out here fail.... yes I do disconnect from the grid when I do that.
I have a plan.... again....  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on May 07, 2019, 10:45:40 PM
I make 18 inch adapter cords to get around those obstacles using a male plug that fits the outlet and a female plug that fits the welder. I can go into a stove plug or a dryer plug. You just have to watch how much amperage you draw.

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: wobblywalrus on May 07, 2019, 11:53:31 PM
It is hard on the welder to use it when plugged into remote outlets or extension cords.  A low line voltage is compensated for by higher amperage to produce the energy for the weld.  The bigger amps can damage the welder.  Recent experience showed me this when the circuit board fried when my welder was plugged into a remote outlet with low line voltage.     
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: bob on May 07, 2019, 11:53:50 PM
couple of posts back you mentioned small aircraft tires you were using, if you don't mind , what exactly are you using  ?  this build is a joy to watch , all the small details , no doubt,  from a few years of a learning curve , great stuff.  
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on May 08, 2019, 12:54:06 AM
It is hard on the welder to use it when plugged into remote outlets or extension cords.  A low line voltage is compensated for by higher amperage to produce the energy for the weld.  The bigger amps can damage the welder.  Recent experience showed me this when the circuit board fried when my welder was plugged into a remote outlet with low line voltage.     

That was the first advice I got from Guido when I bought my welding machine. Beware of extension cords.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: salt27 on May 08, 2019, 02:25:24 AM
It is hard on the welder to use it when plugged into remote outlets or extension cords.  A low line voltage is compensated for by higher amperage to produce the energy for the weld.  The bigger amps can damage the welder.  Recent experience showed me this when the circuit board fried when my welder was plugged into a remote outlet with low line voltage.     

That was the first advice I got from Guido when I bought my welding machine. Beware of extension cords.


A remote outlet needs to have the conductors sized properly to prevent excessive voltage drop, likewise on extension cords.

Typically you don't want to exceed 3% voltage drop.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: RidgeRunner on May 08, 2019, 05:44:23 AM
  Same guy also remembered that my emergency generator plugs into the welder receptacle to power the house when the lines out here fail.... yes I do disconnect from the grid when I do that.

    Anyone doing this by using the main breaker should be very careful and double check that power isn't going back out into the gridwhere it could seriously injure those working to restore power.  Main breakers have been known to fail, that's why a proper transfer switch is specified under code for such use.  A LSR buddy bought an old house to rehab, flipped the main to do some electrical work only to discover he was working on live circuits......

         Ed
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 08, 2019, 06:43:58 AM
In re:  House generator.  I  had the electricians do the job of installing the isolator switch for our generator.  It's a mechanical interlock (yeah, manual) that makes it impossible to have the gen. hooked to the commercial mains.  I wanted to make sure the local Co-op didn't get zapped and having a licensed dude do the work made me feel better.

Too often over the years I've worked on household projects without disconnecting power.  Did I ever tell you about the time I managed to dead-short both sides of the 220 line -- and I was on the north side of the fuses? :roll:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 08, 2019, 10:06:21 AM
RR et al.
I pop the main breaker and the disconnect at the meter...

another Bob.... for the last 25 years or so we have used 18 x 4.4  type 7 aircraft tires on the front of the lakester.... These tires are speed rated at 249 MPH and if you look around, somewhere on this site there is a video of shaving them.  We ran one of them for about 15 years with the top layer of "wear fabric" showing... I carry a section showing the 1/2 inch thick tire left as well as a 1/2 inch steel cable in the bead.  The tire is allowed use with multiple layers of the fabric showing on an airplane.  We had one ripped by a piece of rebar sticking out of the salt several years ago... it pulled rubber off of one side and with oversight by tech, we trimmed that side of the tire off, and ran the tire at multiple test speeds from 175 to 225 MPH... that was enough to set a 218 MPH record so that is where we stopped....
I also have 20 x 4.4 type 7 for the rear... but I only use those for speeds anticipated under 210 MPH... although we have run those to 230.5 MPH... their speed ratings vary from 210 to 230 MPH
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: RidgeRunner on May 08, 2019, 12:07:21 PM
RR et al.
I pop the main breaker and the disconnect at the meter...

Thanks for the details!  I can relax more better now, as you were  :cheers:

Ed
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: floydjer on May 08, 2019, 01:53:57 PM
Quasi-related....Way back when I was a young Floydian I worked in a structural fab. shop. The wiring on the plug end of a welder got yanked out  and one of my co-workers replaced it. After he finished, I re-connected the machine to the 3 phase 480 volt outlet. He did not understand wiring quite as well as some of we others did. Loudest pop I had heard up to that point. After correcting Frank`s error I decided to check the fuse, just knowing it was toast. Shut off the box..pulled the fuse...Un-screwed the end and out fell a length of 3/8 hot rolled round stock. :-o :-o :-o   End of hijack...Looking good Bob.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on May 08, 2019, 06:02:46 PM
Quasi-related....Way back when I was a young Floydian I worked in a structural fab. shop. The wiring on the plug end of a welder got yanked out  and one of my co-workers replaced it. After he finished, I re-connected the machine to the 3 phase 480 volt outlet. He did not understand wiring quite as well as some of we others did. Loudest pop I had heard up to that point. After correcting Frank`s error I decided to check the fuse, just knowing it was toast. Shut off the box..pulled the fuse...Un-screwed the end and out fell a length of 3/8 hot rolled round stock. :-o :-o :-o   End of hijack...Looking good Bob.

Shocking story!.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on May 09, 2019, 07:32:01 AM
Quasi-related....Way back when I was a young Floydian I worked in a structural fab. shop. The wiring on the plug end of a welder got yanked out  and one of my co-workers replaced it. After he finished, I re-connected the machine to the 3 phase 480 volt outlet. He did not understand wiring quite as well as some of we others did. Loudest pop I had heard up to that point. After correcting Frank`s error I decided to check the fuse, just knowing it was toast. Shut off the box..pulled the fuse...Un-screwed the end and out fell a length of 3/8 hot rolled round stock. :-o :-o :-o   End of hijack...Looking good Bob.
Better than a roll of pennies!  :-o :-D
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 10, 2019, 10:18:31 PM
Back to Electrical... I found the same style receptacle, same manufacturer with the configuration that matches my new extension cord.  Installed in about 20 minutes, changed the welder plug and now I can move the welder around the shop.  Stopped and traded the receptacle back to the store for a plug for the generator and I am back to everything fits.  PJ, I thought the pigtail thing was the way I was headed.... the search for an end landed me at the place that had the receptacle that would fit in my wall.   
So now I'm not pissed at my electrician any more  :roll:

Did a little welding on the back of the car... kinda nice to move the welder around the car instead of move the car around the welder. 

I've been working toward body parts, and finally figured out how we are going to get some of it done.  We have a large "maker space" at Wichita State, they have a "Frog Mill"... CNC mill used to cut foam.  So the first thing I'm going to try is making the nose.  We have a "Step File" Pork Pie produced in CATIA to use to mill the form.   I initially wanted to 3D print it with their big 3D Printer, but it actually belongs to National Institute for Aviation Research (NIAR) and they have it back logged with stuff to do for the next 3 months or so.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 16, 2019, 11:41:11 PM
Took a couple of files Pork Pie sent to Go Create today to start making the nose plug on the Frog Mill.  The guy that works with that was quite busy, so I left the files with him.  Still deciding on the resin... I am using 2 lb Styrofoam.  I stopped to talk with the local fiberglass supply house with a chunk of the foam in tow.  He suggested Polyester... mostly because it was more reasonably priced for the same results.  He said paint the foam with latex gloss until it is well coated... 2-3 coats.  Based on what I am building, it is likely to not release due to the large flat surface.  But he said not to worry, a high pressure washer will remove the foam, and then I could clean up anything that stuck with acetone. 
Still time for those decisions... any coaching from the glass pros?  Back to Go Create tomorrow to see if the files I left look right.

Podunk is also at work on the Bockscar... and no Jerry, I did not send El Kabong to Terry for the picture
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 21, 2019, 08:00:26 PM
Went down to Go Create today for nose cutting on the Frog Mill... the plan was to cut halves with the divide down the middle, but then they changed to top and bottom... due to tooling availability...
The Frog is very loud... the top was milled from a piece of foam... but the technician and I did not like the surface... A different guy set up the mill and cut processes... So we decided it needed to stay there and possibly get more work.  I think the passes are too far apart for the 3/4 inch ball end mill. He wanted to discuss the process with the other guy... but said it should be smooth
But here is what we got done this morning...  the swarf will stick to anything it gets close to....
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 21, 2019, 08:36:02 PM
Was back to work on Seat belts... the crotch strap leg belt anchor points for our 7 point harness are now in and the seat is modified to fit them.

I've been noodling the battery box... I have a plan, sort of.... but the nose support will be included in the battery support structure... so I can't really cut final pieces until the nose is done....  but I'll keep think about it
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on May 22, 2019, 11:56:01 AM
Stainless
Apologies if what I am suggesting is naive but you asked a couple ago about fibreglassing. I am no expert but it looks like the way I did the gravity racer could be of interest (and currently how I plan to do Squeeze of Lemming).

I used styrofoam but carved the shape by glueing blocks of the stuff to wooden formers and carved down to the wood using the edge of a hand saw to get close. Milling it would have been brilliant. I used dry wall plaster to smooth it out as its easy to sand and get a good shape / surface worked up.

I should have painted that with sealer / latex paint / pva glue as it turns out where polyester resin touches styrofoam the result looks like the superstructure of the spaceship Nostromo (iirc) when the Alien drool hit metal.

I actually wrapped with cling film (kitchen wrap) - resin doesn't stick to it but equally getting the first layer on is tricky as it slides on it initially - I used a flat sheet of ply, but window glass or flat steel might be better, to wet up maneageable sections of chopped strand and flopped them on to the shape that way for the first coat.

Once layered up to the required weight and gone off completely I then finished with a thin layer of body filler / bog. Since the shape was quite accurate there isn't much filler required other than some minor highs and lows where the top layer of f'glass isn't sanded all the way back to smooth which would be a drag. This results in a good finish to either take a mould (i.e. use as a plug) or paint and use.

Hopefully this provides a talking point as I too would like to know where the improvements could be in this reverse layup fibreglassing process.

John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 23, 2019, 09:24:34 AM
John, you can use epoxy resin with styrofoam... I tested that already.... polyester not so much... it has been suggested to use aluminum foil or cling wrap but I think painting is the way to go.  I guess I will find out.   :-o Milled foam is the way I'm making plugs as of now... all I need is an accurate drawing and the CnC mill does the rest. I just have to furnish foam, the technician and Mill are included in my Go Create membership. 
They are playing with my nose on the Frog mill but I am buried in other commitments this weekend so I'll check them Sunday to see what they came up with.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 26, 2019, 11:03:53 PM
OK, they worked on the program a little, I would say as we do more, they will get better with the Frog Mill.  The very smart Kid that was running it graduated with his Mechanical Engineering degree and was immediately hired by one of the aircraft companies... so the guys are still learning... and maybe my step files need to be refined... but here is a couple of shots of the re-cut in progress.
Love the stock retention equipment for this mill... yep a little duct tape.  He says it the tool does an un-expected programmed departure... it will survive because there is nothing to hit. 
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 26, 2019, 11:18:50 PM
Here are the parts.  I will need to do a little sanding to finish the plug before I paint it.  Found a gallon of really ugly orange semi-gloss latex paint with primer in the reject pile for $9 at the big box store.  Also picked up a quart of Glidden Gripper... a primer that the internet says is the best Styrofoam glue. 
So I painted between the parts with it and here I am... watching paint dry...  :roll:
Excuse the shop... it is a mess... I think I have too much stuff  :|
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: tauruck on May 27, 2019, 12:02:02 AM
All good Bob. You could have asked for help on the composites. I'm here 24/7 just like you guys are for me.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 27, 2019, 09:47:34 AM
Thanks Mike... so is it practical to try to pattern the glass during lay up to avoid overlap at the seams or do I just lay it as flat as I can and then make it smooth when its done.  I will probably be doing it all on male molds... like the one I have now... although the canopy and engine cover will be less than 10 inches deep so I may be able to cut female molds for those... we will see.
I plan to use strips, maybe a foot or so wide and lay it up as smooth as I can.  Yep, the cloth will run every direction and hopefully I can get it on without using too much resin in the mix.  I have seen videos using rollers and squeegees...
When I did the bike fairings I used a squeegee after I wetted it with a HF chip brush with all but about 1/2 inch of the bristles cut off. 

I guess I need to decide if I use epoxy for longer working time or polyester for affordability...

In the mean time, I will be doing prep on the mold... sanding it smooth and painting it orange... pics to follow
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 27, 2019, 11:31:15 PM
Well I should have watched the gluing styrofoam with Glidden Gripper video again, started working on the nose... my test piece was pretty solid... well the lady said to let it dry 48 hours.... I let it dry 12... so while working it shifted a little.
It has been repainted/glued and is drying again... for the next 2 days.
It does look good on the front of the frame....

I enlisted Ross (MC2032) to help me weigh the old frame and the new frame...  they were unbelievably close until we removed the 37 lb VW front suspension from the old one.... trying to compare apples to apples....
New one is 57 lbs heavier.... I was hopeful it would be under a 100....  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on May 28, 2019, 11:06:10 PM
Since I was waiting for the paint/glue in the nose to dry, I jumped back to the front axle.  When it was all together and lined up I marked the spots where the anti-rotation set screws needed divots in the axle.  Today looked like a good time, so I used a center drill to line it all up and drill pilots for the 1/4 inch ball end mill.  The divot is .125 deep  and the 5/16 set screws have been modified with a rounded brass tip that fits the divot.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 28, 2019, 11:11:03 AM
Yes it has been quiet here... the car will not make SpeedWeek... still body building and a lot of other work to be done.  I took the car to Denver for sheet metal work and then joined it last week to do fiberglass.  Pictures to follow soon, a little busy right now.
Yep that means I have a pre-entry to sell to you or the SCTA...  :cheers:
I will be at SpeedWeek crewing for Ross (MC2032)
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: ronnieroadster on July 28, 2019, 12:34:02 PM
Yes it has been quiet here... the car will not make SpeedWeek... still body building and a lot of other work to be done.  I took the car to Denver for sheet metal work and then joined it last week to do fiberglass.  Pictures to follow soon, a little busy right now.
Yep that means I have a pre-entry to sell to you or the SCTA...  :cheers:
I will be at SpeedWeek crewing for Ross (MC2032)


   We all understand the amount of work its takes to do any of this is simply huge.  Now on the bright side you will be able to relax at Speedweek sort of taking a vacation from working so much on the car we all need a brake at times.    :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 29, 2019, 08:41:48 PM
Hardly know where to start... so I'll throw out some pics of what is/was happening.  We will start with the nose.  You saw the bare piece... from there it got paint... then fiberglass then gel coat... may get more gel coat... or a skim of body mud to smooth it all out.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 29, 2019, 08:51:27 PM
Then the canopy...
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 29, 2019, 09:12:35 PM
And engine cover
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 29, 2019, 09:27:46 PM
Then we started fitting it all to the frame...
Cutting the opening for the windshield
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: manta22 on July 29, 2019, 09:30:17 PM
Looking good, Bob!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 29, 2019, 09:41:10 PM
It is getting some sheet metal as well... using .063 aluminum... you might be able to see the direction we are going
The canopy hinge is installed and I came home to get ready to go back.
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 30, 2019, 12:48:01 PM
Stainless,
Looking great! Good progress, you are getting down to the "only about a hundred 5 minute jobs left" area which of course there is no such thing as a 5 minute job it means you have plenty to do.
Looking forward to seeing you at the salt.

Rex
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on July 30, 2019, 02:19:21 PM
Rex, gotta be there to see you do 222  :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Lemming Motors on July 31, 2019, 03:01:29 AM
That is looking really nice.
Hope to meet at the salt in a couple of weeks.
John
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Simspeed on August 02, 2019, 10:20:27 PM
Great progress Stainless...looks really good. Excited to see the finished product... Terry
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Stainless1 on August 19, 2019, 11:45:46 AM
OK, since we weren't going to get anything done for a couple of weeks due to SpeedWeek and travel we put the nose on a box and pushed it to the car... just to get an idea of how it is going.  Yes the nose needs trimmed about 2 inches to square it up...
As we build the body, we are are changing our plan as we go....
I am home now, but headed back to work on the body in a couple of weeks.  Of course Dave will be working on the parts we already re-thought and hopefully improved
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: STICK777 on August 19, 2019, 11:52:19 AM
Looking good... kinda classic.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Peter Jack on August 19, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
Wow Stainless, it's starting to look exciting. Great work!!!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Bockscar 2.0
Post by: Sumner on August 19, 2019, 07:42:51 PM
Nice work, you have accomplished a lot in a short amount of time  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Sum