Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => 2017 and before: SW & WF => SpeedWeek 2017 => Topic started by: jww36 on July 09, 2017, 10:16:11 AM
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I'm somewhat of a LSR new comer, but here is my 2 cents. This subject is not in anyway to criticize Larry Volk and the guys prepping the salt. There doing the best with what they got. We all know the salt is not what it was twenty years ago, but they are prepping the courses the same way as twenty years ago (dragging sleds).
At the Test & Tune, the salt was like a washboard, and the dragging and packing helped flatten the surface but couldn't eliminate the high spots. Common sense tells me if over the next winter and spring we get a little more salt back on the surface, it's not going to lay flat, just cover the washboard surface conditions we have now.
Again, the reason for this subject is not to criticize, but a forum like this allows hundreds of people to put our heads together and maybe come up with a way to get a hard flat surface for racing.
John
But I don't know if the traditional way of course prep that they have been doing for twenty plus years (dragging sleds)
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the obvious answer is to get more salt on the race course. bringing back some of the 116 million tons of salt discarded in pond 5 would be a good place to start. at the rate of 2 million tons a years returned, there would be a noticeable improvement after a few years. anything less including different grading techniques is simple a waste of time. the current grooming techniques have been refined over many decades and have proven to be effective. there needs to be more salt on the courses, period!
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I'm somewhat of a LSR new comer, but here is my 2 cents. This subject is not in anyway to criticize Larry Volk and the guys prepping the salt. There doing the best with what they got. We all know the salt is not what it was twenty years ago, but they are prepping the courses the same way as twenty years ago (dragging sleds).
At the Test & Tune, the salt was like a washboard, and the dragging and packing helped flatten the surface but couldn't eliminate the high spots. Common sense tells me if over the next winter and spring we get a little more salt back on the surface, it's not going to lay flat, just cover the washboard surface conditions we have now.
Again, the reason for this subject is not to criticize, but a forum like this allows hundreds of people to put our heads together and maybe come up with a way to get a hard flat surface for racing.
John
But I don't know if the traditional way of course prep that they have been doing for twenty plus years (dragging sleds)
Yeah... something different. I've been thinking of something like a terrazzo grinder not just one but at least 3 staggered to cover at least 8 ft they have course stones for ist grind and are replaceable. A towable framework that would be able to adjust up and down and with a generator big enough to power units. would have to be fabricated and Seth Hammonds shop would be capable of it.
Or just design something with the cutting wheels and belt drive similar to a lawn tractor and driven by a 4 cyl motor.
JL222
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the obvious answer is to get more salt on the race course. bringing back some of the 116 million tons of salt discarded in pond 5 would be a good place to start. at the rate of 2 million tons a years returned, there would be a noticeable improvement after a few years. anything less including different grading techniques is simple a waste of time. the current grooming techniques have been refined over many decades and have proven to be effective. there needs to be more salt on the courses, period!
It's been suggested to built a berm and direct the brine towards the course. Truck in material for berm. Rubber tired tractor can build berm, height to be determined by GPS altitude reading 6 in plus curvature of earth should do it.
I installed ABS ? culvert pipes when building our new home 10'' by 20 ft fairly light, Linda and I could handle them,
not break the bank. looking up cost. Need to hook up to discharge pumps if possible or pump brine into as many pipes needed to direct flow to course area.
JL222
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the obvious answer is to get more salt on the race course. bringing back some of the 116 million tons of salt discarded in pond 5 would be a good place to start. at the rate of 2 million tons a years returned, there would be a noticeable improvement after a few years. anything less including different grading techniques is simple a waste of time. the current grooming techniques have been refined over many decades and have proven to be effective. there needs to be more salt on the courses, period!
It's been suggested to built a berm and direct the brine towards the course. Truck in material for berm. Rubber tired tractor can build berm, height to be determined by GPS altitude reading 6 in plus curvature of earth should do it.
I installed ABS ? culvert pipes when building our new home 10'' by 20 ft fairly light, Linda and I could handle them,
not break the bank. looking up cost. Need to hook up to discharge pumps if possible or pump brine into as many pipes needed to direct flow to course area.
JL222
Found cost of pipes $130 with tax no coupler required 264 20 sections per mile =$34,320 :-P
The 12'' x 20 ft galvanized steel pipe I used for under road was $88. We were in a hurry and this $130 stuff was close so maybe cheaper else were. Also smaller pipe would do it.
SAVE THE SALT might be able to get BLM or Intrepid to help or maybe BNI should take over the project.
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I am now wishing I had gone down & inspected the salt when it was flooded to better understand how much salt crust actually remains solid while it is flooded & how much is fluid. We're only talking 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch total thickness once it dries. The roughness of the dried surface is actually the little divots created in the brine dirt base when the last of the abrasive water is blown around by the wind as it evaporates creating a golf ball effect.
In reality, putting anything back in the Bonneville basin isn't likely to improve the surface if there is NO PLUG IN THE DRAIN.
Sid.
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Sid and Roger are right:
To stop leaching of the salt means stopping the BRINE mining
Restore means just that---there will have to be a massive return of Salt to have anything but a crusty mud flat
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I keep scratching my head on this one. Up here(way up north) the mining companies are required to fill in the hole once they've extracted the mineral. The holes/poor rock piles resulting form digging those holes - are WAY bigger than the piddly-azz 50 megatons of salt. But fill 'em in they must, 'cause they are required to post a bond to cover the full cost of reclamation to "as found" before they can begin mining.
It's been that way for a long time - maybe as long as mining at the Salt. Yeah, sure, there's no "hole" in this case - but the poor rock pile (a/k/a salt mountain) is still there to be redistributed on the flats. Right?
I guess not after all. Bummer. Maybe they shoulda built the salt flats using rules from Upper Michigan.
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Yes, but. By their standards the salt is still there. In the form of salty mud. The flats are still flats. So if you are the BLM nothing has changed. This is called Gov Think.
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.... - but the poor rock pile (a/k/a salt mountain) is still there to be redistributed on the flats. Right?...
If you read their contracts they are under no obligation to ever return any of the salt to where it came from. They only have to plug any wells they have and maybe fill in the ditches, but I can't remember that part for sure :cry: :cry: :cry:
Sad, sad situation. Anything else in the U.S. that would of been this unique would of been protected, but it wasn't, so what's next. A government 'super fund' project to do what is right and return the salt flats to something that resembles what they were before??? Most 'super fund' projects are ones like the ones near me to clean up uranium tailing piles or some other situation where it is deemed the public is at risk. Not the case here, so this would be a whole new ball game.
Sumner
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Somewhere thru the tons of reading, I remember that there's a bond that must be posted for reconstruction(?) of a mining area. And also thru the reading, I recall that this is S.O.P. on federal land. And the mining companies know this. And they're structured so if they ever need to comply, the entity that has posted the initial bond goes broke. Kinda a big business way of doing business.
Maybe we should complain to the POTUS -- I believe he's well-versed in this practice.
Go ahead and complain to the Secretary of the Interior (who's trying to cut back on wilderness areas for drilling).
Stan
(Let the arrows fly . . .)
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trying to groom bonneville these days is kind of like a bald man trying to comb his hair.....can't groom what ain't there...
in my opinion the usfra folks did a good job with what they had to work with. the salt is just too damn thin to do much with.
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trying to groom bonneville these days is kind of like a bald man trying to comb his hair.....can't groom what ain't there...
in my opinion the usfra folks did a good job with what they had to work with. the salt is just too Dodge thin to do much with.
Save The Salt says hopefully close to 600,000 tons of SALT [ NOT SALT BRINE] lay down this year and about the same last year.
At a truck and trailer load of 50,000 lbs or 25 t0ns. 25 tons into 600,000 tons is 24,000 truck and trailer loads
OF SALT!!
I'm pretty sure a truck and trailer holds at least 24 cubic yards. Some body besides me can figure how many miles
of salt could be laid down at 4'' thick with 24,000 truck and trailer loads.
Yeah right, be patient they say.
JL222
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Somewhere thru the tons of reading, I remember that there's a bond that must be posted for reconstruction(?) of a mining area. And also thru the reading, I recall that this is S.O.P. on federal land. And the mining companies know this. And they're structured so if they ever need to comply, the entity that has posted the initial bond goes broke. Kinda a big business way of doing business.
Maybe we should complain to the POTUS -- I believe he's well-versed in this practice.
Go ahead and complain to the Secretary of the Interior (who's trying to cut back on wilderness areas for drilling).
Stan
(Let the arrows fly . . .)
We covered a lot of this in a post a year ago....
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,15814.0.html
.... and when I went back and tried to go to the links to BLM reports on the subject....guess what.... they are all gone :roll: :roll:,
Sumner
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Somewhere thru the tons of reading, I remember that there's a bond that must be posted for reconstruction(?) of a mining area. And also thru the reading, I recall that this is S.O.P. on federal land. And the mining companies know this. And they're structured so if they ever need to comply, the entity that has posted the initial bond goes broke. Kinda a big business way of doing business.
Maybe we should complain to the POTUS -- I believe he's well-versed in this practice.
Go ahead and complain to the Secretary of the Interior (who's trying to cut back on wilderness areas for drilling).
Stan
(Let the arrows fly . . .)
It's my understanding the State of Utah has tried on several occasions to separate itself from federal law and federal oversight.
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I saved the BLM reports.
Send me a PM with an email addy and I'll be happy to share them.
Sam
#6062
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Seventeen western States got screwed---they didn't get their land like the previous states that joined the Union did! The greedy Senators kept them as PUBLIC LANDS.
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Save The Salt says hopefully close to 600,000 tons of SALT [ NOT SALT BRINE] lay down this year and about the same last year.
At a truck and trailer load of 50,000 lbs or 25 t0ns. 25 tons into 600,000 tons is 24,000 truck and trailer loads
OF SALT!!
I'm pretty sure a truck and trailer holds at least 24 cubic yards. Some body besides me can figure how many miles
of salt could be laid down at 4'' thick with 24,000 truck and trailer loads.
Yeah right, be patient they say.
JL222
Using these numbers that would equate to 1.67 square miles a year. so would take approximately 24 years to add 4 inches to the salt flats. That is assuming that no salt is flowing out over that time.
Eldon
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I saved the BLM reports.
Send me a PM with an email addy and I'll be happy to share them.
Sam
#6062
Sent you a PM...Thanks,
Sumner
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The reason I started this blog was short term solutions for possible ways to prepare the rough salt conditions out there. Obvious getting the BLM to help us in the future is a possibility. But that is in the future, and we're all growing older.
Something blew me away at the Test & Tune. On Thursday and Friday we had three groups of tourists from Europe come to our pits to chat and see the cars on the salt. None of them knew the Test & Tune was happening. They were just tourists wanting to see the Bonneville Salt Flats. One couple from Poland where going to Yosemite and Yellowstone next. It made me realize how important this place is from a non-LSR standpoint, yet nobody outside the LSR community is doing anything to preserve it.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. The ONLY way anybody, LSR community or others, is going to get the BLM from it's mining practices at Bonneville is a lawsuit. When I say this people say this will never happen. But I'll tell you this, I'm no tree hugger, but if the BLM or any government entity was allowing logging companies to go in and cut down old growth redwood trees that once gone can never be replaced on government property, the environmentalists would have an injunction filed to stop the cutting of these trees within 48 hours!
The BLM officially states that the mining of the salt flats hasn't depleted the salt in anyway in twenty plus years. Everybody else knows this statement is ridiculous. Why can't an injunction be filed to stop mining operations until an independent third party can do research and determine if their claim is true for the preservation of the Bonneville Salt Flats for everyone?
John
John
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I hate to even bring this up but after all of the good press and hard work by Save The Salt, has anything happened other than a few politicians sending letters of support?
I think We all could use a few words of encouragement from someone at STS.
Thanks to all who have worked so hard for hopefully a good outcome
Bob Drury
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Drag SLOWER at night. This has been discussed in certant circles but some refuse to listen. Larry's tnt course was ok but only a 1/4 mile off the end of the road. Got smoother after the 1.5. Further down looks better till you see the SCTA courses that have been drug during the day at 45+ mph. They look like $hit (IMO) . There is potential there to work with and be better than last year. It all depends on the preppers. The salt is hard and dry.
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45 MPH? Unh, I've seen the drag trucks a bunch of times and don't think-they hit anything within a full order of magnitude when dragging.
But realistically -- dragging super-thin salt and no-so-thin mud ain't gonna make a salt-only course happen. We need salt. Take 20 years and a zillion truckloads of salt and graders and a few more years for the salt to age into something raceable and then at least the grandkids will have salt for racing.
Anybody here care to think that far ahead?
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Save The Salt says hopefully close to 600,000 tons of SALT [ NOT SALT BRINE] lay down this year and about the same last year.
At a truck and trailer load of 50,000 lbs or 25 t0ns. 25 tons into 600,000 tons is 24,000 truck and trailer loads
OF SALT!!
I'm pretty sure a truck and trailer holds at least 24 cubic yards. Some body besides me can figure how many miles
of salt could be laid down at 4'' thick with 24,000 truck and trailer loads.
Yeah right, be patient they say.
JL222
Using these numbers that would equate to 1.67 square miles a year. so would take approximately 24 years to add 4 inches to the salt flats. That is assuming that no salt is flowing out over that time.
Eldon
I figure 884 miles of salt 10ft wide and 4'' thick or 1768 miles 2'' thick
Course of 12 miles into 1768 miles =12 - 10 ft wide course 147 miles long 2'' thick
Using your estimates at 2'' it would sill take 12 yrs or just 1'' 6 yrs
SO for 2'' for 1year increase flow 12 times or 1'' 6 times?
Whatever, trying to increase thickness of all of the salt flats has proven to not work and shows the need to control
the salt brine to just the race course area.
What's the definition of INSANITY ?
JL222
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What's the definition of INSANITY ?
JL222
Thinking all that returned brine is not used to wash more salt down the drain... Yep we need to plug the drain and try to return salt to the race course... I know someone suggested a berm... it would be a large area, but I suspect the BLM and the strip miners would not go for it
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Knowing that the BLM isn't going to allow a dirt berm to be built (remember when Ron Main hauled several truck loads of "processed" salt over three or four years ago and the BLM threw a sh*t fit)?
A couple of years ago I suggested building a temporary berm from the dike to the twelve or fourteen mile using rented concrete freeway dividers placed on the salt end to end.
These could be made waterproof at the joints relatively easy with "heat to stick" rubber" sort of like the dyno-mat products that many of Us have used on Street Rod floors.
If this was done and pumping took place for a full Year We would or should have a Racing Course. Intrepid/BLM need to stop pumping the brine to the South side of I-80 period.
The berm could be left in place for at least a few years and before every meet removed for a quarter mile each way from the end of a course and at the road entry to the Salt.
Lets face the facts. Most of Us will not live long enough to see a 400+ race course again if Intrepid only pumps two or three months out of the Year and the brine is free to flow where it wants.
The cheapest way to make this happen would be to get the state of Utah to furnish the concrete barriers by renting them if they don't have enough, The BLM digging a few Large settlement ponds near the miles of dry salt mounds on the Intrepid side and Intrepid/BLM paying to pump at least nine months a year until ALL the Salt is returned to the North side of I-80.
If this was implemented This fall or more likely next summer I would gladly trade skipping the 2018 Race Season and return in 2019.
As I see it the Salt Flats are done for Long Course Racing, especially for 300+ mph race vehicles and I doubt that any of the Streamliners capable of those speeds will show up for Speedweek except to test equipment. "One Run" Bob Drury
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What I think is to give SCTA-BNI to do the best they can to put the events on. It's a very big job and all done by racers the volunteer to give up their time to grade the courses and give us something to run on. The racers need to use their heads during the event to assure all goes well. Please attend the entry meeting at the starting line for more information before the first vehicle can go down the course. This is for drivers and crew.
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ORB,
The salt is there, on the S side. The water to pump it is where? That is likely to be the problem. Dike off a large area on the south side and collect rain?
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Glen, without a doubt the BNI is and always will prepare the best course it can. I'm sure of that... but I think Roger is right, we are a bald guy combing his hair....
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From the Save the Salt website:
1989
BLM Recreational Lands Manager, Gregg Morgan interviewed by ESPN notes,
“We are concerned with the loss of salt on the perimeter and with the overall loss. The study we completed a year ago, which updates the one we did 14 years ago shows that we are losing 1% of salt from the surface each year. That amounts to 1.6 million tons annually. At that rate, in ten years possibly there will not be enough salt to race on and in thirty years not enough salt to sustain what we call the Bonneville Salt Flats.”
Save the Salt (STS), is founded by racers, businesses and community members. Save the Salt Foundation is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to protect the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah and to promote its history and motorsports legacy. The organization aspires to keep this national treasure available for future generations.
After 28 years it looks like Gregg knew what he was talking about.
Tom G.
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Tom, I know that Greg moved on to another post in the BLM. I wonder if He moved at His own discression or at someone elses? I think He was to smart for Upper Management.
Bob
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1st off, a SALT berm not dirt, [ dirt? where did that come from?]
Eldon and I came up with the same sq ft just expressed different, but his are more useful. 46,556,928 sq ft.
5280 ft in mile x 5280 = 27,878,400 sq ft in a mile
A course 1000 ft wide x 8 miles long 42,240 ft = 42,240,000 sq ft 4'' thick
Or 2000 ft wide and 2'' thick and so on variables.
Save The Salt is Trying to get Intrepid to increase pumping maybe they can work on building a berm.
Or get the BLM on board.
Some improvement must be done. We are interred this year, but if course is rough and dangerous not coming back
until changes are made.
JL222
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A thousand foot wide strip that was higher then the rest of the flats would be a dangerous place to run, imagine getting off the edge of that at speed!
Sid.
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John, Interred this year? What was Your crime? Did they get Troy also?
Sorry, I just couldn't resist............ Good Luck this Year!!!
O.R.B., out................................................ :-o :-o :-D :-D :cheers: :mrgreen:
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A thousand foot wide strip that was higher then the rest of the flats would be a dangerous place to run, imagine getting off the edge of that at speed!
Sid.
What the Fiat do you think its like now. Sounds like reasoning from Save The Salt, Besides I was just showing how far 600,000 tons of salt 4'' thick could go. And suggested one could try different course lengths, widths and depths
If your upside down and flipping it wouldn't matter, If your up right, pull the fucking chutes and get on the brakes.
The only time I ever saw a car get way off course was when they were spinning or just rolling backwards and didn't
apply the brakes.
2000 ft wide at 2'' would be more likely. And it wouldn't be to hard to taper the edges.
Even 4000 ft at 1'' would be better. 3000 at 11/2'' Think you could stay on that Sid? any of the above?
JL222
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John, Interred this year? What was Your crime? Did they get Troy also?
Sorry, I just couldn't resist............ Good Luck this Year!!!
O.R.B., out................................................ :-o :-o :-D :-D :cheers: :mrgreen:
:-D After entry fee, hotel, engine repairs and rebuild and new truck for towing, we've been sentenced to the
BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS 7 days of hard labor with beer breaks and margaritas after racing.
I don't have a race car it's got me :-P
JL222
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I don't know the exact length of the drag but I don't think it's very long.
I was working at a building site and a guy was trying to smooth out an extensive driveway with a circular entrance.
He had to go get his bigger tractor, both rubber tired, because he couldn't get out the humps in his grading.
The bigger tractor with a longer wheelbase did the job.
A much longer drag sled would help cut the bumps out instead of just following the ups and downs.
JL222
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I have seen farm Land Planes are 50 to 100' between axles--- I am guessing you would need 200' for boneville and/or Laser controlled to get the undulations out
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I have seen farm Land Planes are 50 to 100' between axles--- I am guessing you would need 200' for boneville and/or Laser controlled to get the undulations out
Great idea Sparky.. looking up land planes I came across [ field plane by Miskin ...you tube video.
Troy will post video later to night. Length of plane is from front tractor wheels to back wheels of planer
We have some big time farmers in land racing :-D
JL222
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JL... Sounds like your willing to do something I'm not....sacrifice another truck to the salt gods... :-D
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JL... Sounds like your willing to do something I'm not....sacrifice another truck to the salt gods... :-D
I'm not using MY new truck :-D Looks like it has to be pulled by a tractor with a catagoty 2 draft sensing device.
I guess you didn't get the hint :-)
JL222
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Here you go
https://youtu.be/_EkitU200iQ
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That will lift the thin crust up and level the dirt , Then we can have a long version of El Mirage
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That will lift the thin crust up and level the dirt , Then we can have a long version of El Mirage
The self leveling system can be turned off and height control controlled by operator.
Also by raising the hitch to different holes varies the cutting depth with the top being the least.
Serrated blades are available for graders and I think for these.
Just trying to come up with something better. Like maybe a field plane and drag instead of blade.
The simplest solution is a longer drag. I have seen pictures of water barrels on top of the Bville drag.
I understand that BNI were purchasing chains to drag behind drag, so their trying.
JL222
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Could racing continue on the Bonneville Dirt Flats . Serious question .
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Could racing continue on the Bonneville Dirt Flats . Serious question .
Yes if watered. Hears why I think so. Every one thinks the high horsepower cars tear up the track and cause marbles
at El Mirage. But why is it that our 222 Camaro accelerates Dodge good [ once 152 mph in 10.2 seconds] then breaks
loose when the track gets bad. and our spoiler is producing more down force at speed? If the spinning tires causes the marbles why isn't the track as bad at the start as further down?
I think it's because the low pressure behind the cars sucks the pebbles up between the cracks and causes the marbles. I have a chipped asphalt driveway and even at 10 mph there's a cloud of dust behind the car.
Watering would help keep the pebbles in place
I lobbied for this when I was a club rep 20 yrs ago for El Mirage. They finally did it but after the races to keep the dust down.
Try it at Elmo Ist but the day before. Test how much off track.
Problem is how far water truck goes and getting the water. Maybe just a 3 mile course. Hey over 300mph a El Mirage.
jl222
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Where was it a year or so ago that Carbiliner made its dirt (playa) runs?
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That will lift the thin crust up and level the dirt , Then we can have a long version of El Mirage
The self leveling system can be turned off and height control controlled by operator.
Also by raising the hitch to different holes varies the cutting depth with the top being the least.
Serrated blades are available for graders and I think for these.
Just trying to come up with something better. Like maybe a field plane and drag instead of blade.
The simplest solution is a longer drag. I have seen pictures of water barrels on top of the Bville drag.
I understand that BNI were purchasing chains to drag behind drag, so their trying.
JL222
As a cropping farmer we use landplane/graders , both short laser controlled ones and 100ft long landplane.
For them to work properly they need a ripped even consistancy surface , they dont keep level control well over hard surface either riding out or pulling in , and in my opinion the salt crust would just separate at the mud line and gather
The short angled blades Cook is using at Bolivia are working there as they slice the pressure ridges and other irregulaties off an existing flat hard and very thick surface
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"then breaks loose when the track gets bad."
Wide tires?
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Switching the narrative a bit, the course condition reports from the test-n-tune were not so good whereas Course 1 is possibly 8-9 miles and in better condition than recent years. Help... ?!?!
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I moved this stuff from the WoS topoic to here since lotsa folks will be wanting to know for SW. Anyway, here's a release I got from JoAnn a while ago:
PRESS RELEASE
BONNEVILLE SPEED WEEK 2017
The SCTA/BNI course prep team has been to the salt in the last month- two times- with many hours of grooming and preparation to have the courses ready for Speed Week. The good news is that there is more salt on the entire area that we race on. Problems with the salt are that we have very hard dry spots and are having a difficult time cutting the high spots getting them as smooth as possible. There are other areas that are soft and thin that is much better than last year. We currently can report that conditions are moderately better than 2016. As you know, in 2016 we had a three course meet. This year we have groomed 4 courses. Course number four, the rookie course, is firm and stable as always. Course number three- our short course- is good to five miles, only timed to the three mile. Course two, which was our 2016 long course, and is much better than last year, is 8 to 10 miles long. If our usual number one long course does not cure adequately by Speed Week, we will most likely be using our number two course as our long course as we did last year. Our plan is to get to the salt early enough to continue grooming course number one and course number two so that we can have a four course race meet as usual. (Mother Nature willing) At present time we have three courses, Long 8 to 10 miles, short 5 miles and a rookie 3 miles (timed to the 1 mile). See you on the salt!
Bill Lattin, BNI Chairman Pat McDowell, SCTA President and Race Director
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"then breaks loose when the track gets bad."
Wide tires?
You spun, didn't know you had wide tires. Or all the others that had problems.
JL222
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Can't believe you took that bait JL...
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Can't believe you took that bait JL...
Yea but :roll: Just can't resist :-D
JL222
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That will lift the thin crust up and level the dirt , Then we can have a long version of El Mirage
The self leveling system can be turned off and height control controlled by operator.
Also by raising the hitch to different holes varies the cutting depth with the top being the least.
Serrated blades are available for graders and I think for these.
Just trying to come up with something better. Like maybe a field plane and drag instead of blade.
The simplest solution is a longer drag. I have seen pictures of water barrels on top of the Bville drag.
I understand that BNI were purchasing chains to drag behind drag, so their trying.
JL222
As a cropping farmer we use landplane/graders , both short laser controlled ones and 100ft long landplane.
For them to work properly they need a ripped even consistancy surface , they dont keep level control well over hard surface either riding out or pulling in , and in my opinion the salt crust would just separate at the mud line and gather
The short angled blades Cook is using at Bolivia are working there as they slice the pressure ridges and other irregulaties off an existing flat hard and very thick surface
Not sure but it looks like the tractor scrapers are turned backwards for more of a smoothing edge,
Wow...8 tractors =mucho bucks :-o Where is the bucks coming from? Edit ..Looks like TOP 1 OIL 8-) See pics on Bolivia post.
the Miskin field plane pulled by tractor with load sensing draft control looks like it handles all the problems you have.
Blade turned backwards would help.
Did you watch all of video showing field plane going up a hlll and over the top?
JL222
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Its the loose surface that lets that work,
If we made the race surface loose enough to level with a blade to remove the washboard effect it could be years untill it was stable enough to drive on again
For example look at the drain that used to cross the track from the roads end to the pits, always a soft area after a bit of traffic
and who knows how many years since that was put in and later filled
Nature has provided the best surface , left to its own with an evaporation pan naturally bringing the salts to the surface it would again
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You've all got cars and a problem race track.
I've got a great track but a problem car.
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You will do the necessary fix for the car.
FREUD
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Could racing continue on the Bonneville Dirt Flats . Serious question .
Yes if watered. Hears why I think so. Every one thinks the high horsepower cars tear up the track and cause marbles at El Mirage. But why is it that our 222 Camaro accelerates Dodge good [ once 152 mph in 10.2 seconds] then breaks loose when the track gets bad. and our spoiler is producing more down force at speed? If the spinning tires causes the marbles why isn't the track as bad at the start as further down?
Don't want to de-rail this thread but there's a reason why the first half of the track at El Mo is very good. Years ago, there were a lot of boonie bushes encroaching on our racing area. After the end of the racing season, a crew went out there with a grader and knocked all the boonies out and then took the dirt from their left over mounds and spread it out all over the far west end of the course area. Now I can't be 100% certain of this but it's my theory that the winter rains came, flooded the lake bed and distributed all the boonie dirt over the first half of the course area. Then it dried and baked in the sun and "cured" into a surface that's akin to concrete. If you walk or slowly drive down the course, you can see where the "concrete" ends and the surface returns to it's normal consistency. It's a clear black and white, night and day difference from the good dirt to the bad dirt. And the good dirt didn't exist until they did the boonie removal. I don't think the guys that knocked out the boonies and spread the dirt around had idea this was going to happen but it did and we'd probably fix our bad course problems if the same thing was done again - this time on the east end of the course area. So again, El Mo track conditions doesn't have anything to do with Bonneville course prep but now you know.
And no, there won't ever be Bonneville dirt racing - unless that mucky swamp mud somehow totally and completely dries out.
BTW, if someone really thinks they've got a better way of doing the grooming at Bonneville, it's not likely that those that have already been doing it forever are going to be that receptive to someone's input who's never done it once. Now I'm not saying the powers that be aren't open to change or improving things but talking about it here ain't gunna do nuttin'. If you really think you can do it better, then you should commit yourself to doing so and could probably start by at least attending the BNI meetings where these kinds of things get talked about. And if you actually really want to make a difference, don't just go to one meeting - go and keep going. Keep going until you start to actually get involved and get involved to the point where YOU have the ability to start imparting an actual change. If you don't believe in your cause enough to go beyond talking about it here and actually standing up in front of the BNI and saying hey guys you can do this better and here's how then nothing's going to happen. Those drags they use to groom the courses didn't just appear on the salt one day. They were built. There have been hundreds if not thousands of hours put into prepping the SCTA/BNI courses. If you have a better idea, build it and go out there are show them that your idea is in fact better. The proof is in the proof.
Now I'm not saying put up or shut up... even though it really sounds like it. Talking and sharing ideas and coming up with stuff is great. But actually doing something about it will take more effort. Just sayin'.
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Well said Nathan!
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First I'll second the 'well said' statement.
....And no, there won't ever be Bonneville dirt racing - unless that mucky swamp mud somehow totally and completely dries out...
Nate I think we have been driving on the dirt there now for a bit. Mike's international course has been pretty much in the dirt at both ends, at least when I was there. When I ran the long course a couple years ago it sure seemed like the end of the shut down was pretty much dirt.
I'm aware of breaking through the salt into the mud underneath in the past but I haven't seen as much of that now. I think the reason is that there basically is no salt on top of the mud anymore so the mud can dry out. In the good days when the salt was thicker it prevented the mud under it from drying out.
Not saying I want B'ville to turn into a dirt track but we might not have a say in that any longer and evidently never did have a say that actually got the powers to be to do anything differently,
Sumner
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Where was it a year or so ago that Carbiliner made its dirt (playa) runs?
That was out in Nevada (Lovelock). The first trip there we had a good track - we had 7 miles of track but only the middle 4 were great. The rest of the track was loose (talcum consistency) and you couldn't drive on it without being dusted out.
The second trip out we didn't even have the middle of the track. We had dust issues over the entire lake-bed. Not that we couldn't run, but the traction was a little less than first time and we had more dust in the cockpit.
Even on it's best days that area would not support a full on LSR effort. IT works well for testing and depending on track conditions (highly variable) you may be able to do an independent run for a record. You would not be able to move Speed Week to such a venue.
Access to the site is very remote - off camber turns, switchbacks and dirt road for 30+ miles. Even the closest civilization wouldn't support much more than a dozen race teams.
Try this link, it will show you the route from I80 to one of the access roads onto the lake-bed.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/40.0611341,-118.6520501/40.2762576,-118.9954403/@40.1471051,-118.9188343,38721m/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/40.0611341,-118.6520501/40.2762576,-118.9954403/@40.1471051,-118.9188343,38721m/data=!3m1!1e3)
This is a view from I80 looking towards the mountains you are climbing over. Rough numbers show climbing almost 2,000 feet from I80 to the peak and descending another 2,000 feet to the basin floor. No guide-rails, off camber hair-pin turns and a warning to not attempt to traverse the road AT ALL if there is ANY rain.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0610752,-118.6520508,3a,60y,289.01h,89.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMPSErP-F0bI2Og7aJNsX2Q!2e0!7i3328!8i1664 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0610752,-118.6520508,3a,60y,289.01h,89.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMPSErP-F0bI2Og7aJNsX2Q!2e0!7i3328!8i1664)
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I would agree with you there Sumner.
The only reason there is more area coverage this year is due to the 2+ft of run-off water that was contained on the flats for a longer than usual time to leach more product before being drained off to Intrepid. I would explain the place right now as being like one big-a$$ golf ball.
The salt was actually warm at the Tnt & that is probably drying out the the top of the brine dirt base & there were bugs like I've never seen before including grasshoppers.
Sid.
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Nathan...don't you think the BNI should be the ones paying to have something built? I know a couple of racers
with shops that could do it.
Going to the meetings time after time would be [ Jesus Christ ] a pain in the Acura. I attended the SCTA rep meetings in Anahiem when I was a club rep and it was at least a 4 hr trip there and back. Hey I was there when your dad lobbied to lower the driving age so you could drive :-o
I think the BNI can take suggestions without being at a meeting. I know that at the SCTA club rep meetings only the reps were supposed to have a voice. But SCTA did report on any communications they had received during that part
of the meeting agenda.
So writing a letter might be better.
As you now know the 222 car has been running at El Mirage before you were old enough to drive and when the course conditions were good at the start and before any dunes were cut. Both Troy and I getting into the El Mirage
200 mile club and setting a record at 229+mph in AA/BGALT which we still have.
The course was better in the earlier years and I think part of the problem is the dairies wells, pumping the ground
water and the result is the water going down the sink those sink holes instead of evaporating longer on top. If it really got good and flooded maybe we could have a good course again.
And I don't think the SCTA would have allowed loose dirt to be spread on the course.
JL222
Edit... the El Mirage sink holes are just small holes no more than 6'' that The SCTA clubs used to plug with wet mud.
This was long ago and I haven't heard much about it lately. Any how not like Florida sinkholes :-)
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John, I certainly don't want to take away from the fact that you went to a board meeting once over 20 years ago but I was talking about more relevant times - namely, now. The point I was trying to make, which you seemed to miss, was to get involved and do more than just talk about it here.
BTW you can call Bill Lattin and ask him about the boonie removal since he was the one who did it.
See ya on the salt.
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John, I certainly don't want to take away from the fact that you went to a board meeting once over 20 years ago but I was talking about more relevant times - namely, now. The point I was trying to make, which you seemed to miss, was to get involved and do more than just talk about it here.
BTW you can call Bill Lattin and ask him about the boonie removal since he was the one who did it.
See ya on the salt.
I was a club rep and went every month. Your confused about that and evidently don't understand a club's rep's
responsibility.
I guess it's hard for you to grasp what an effort it would be for members to do what you suggest and what an effort
it was to attend. Foggy was working for me at the time and we would quit work early, go home, get changed and drive 4 hrs to get there in time. Don't forget about the drive home. Hey if you live close go for it.
Writing a letter about suggestions should be read at the SCTA meeting under communications.
JL222
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I hate to even bring this up but after all of the good press and hard work by Save The Salt, has anything happened other than a few politicians sending letters of support?
I think We all could use a few words of encouragement from someone at STS.
Thanks to all who have worked so hard for hopefully a good outcome
Bob Drury
SAVE THE SALT is trying to get more brine pumped and Intrepid has pumped for years were is it?
Instead of so many tons of salt, the agreement should be so many inches of salt when dry.
Has SAVE THE SALT even figured out after 600,000 tons have been pumped what the increase in depth on the salt flats should be?
Not sure of total area but one of us could figure it out.
Yeah the only solution is more salt and a lawsuit [ BNI and Intrepid]?
JL222
Edit... BNI, Save the salt, Utah , verses BLM and Intrepid.
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To cover our entire race area with just one (1) inch of salt would take an estimated 20 million tons.
With 600,000 tons delivered annually (debatable) you do the math on how long it would take, especially considering how much is being sucked back out every winter.
Willi
Kraut Bros.
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With 600,000 tons delivered annually (debatable) you do the math...........
Is that 600,000 tons of salt or 600,000 tons of brine?
Big difference.
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Either way, Mike, it's just a drop in the bucket but it's all we have right now.
Willi
Kraut Bros.
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With 600,000 tons delivered annually (debatable) you do the math...........
Is that 600,000 tons of salt or 600,000 tons of brine?
Big difference.
Save the Salt's site claims 600,000 tons of salt, not brine, and if ''Salt's'' estimate is right :-o
Has anyone from Save The Salt collected a gallon or more of salt brine on a regular basis and let it evaporate
to physically see the percentage of salt left?
Same deal on leach lines?
JL222
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Some interesting info from BLM reports that now seem to have disappeared from their site.
The first for 2003...
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/17-salt-blm-3.jpg)
This shows a salt loss to mining then of about 850,000 tons a year with a laydown average of 1.2 million tons a year for a net gain over 5 years of only 2 million tons of salt. If they currently are taking 850,000 tons a year and replacing 600,000 tons then there is still a net loss :cry: :cry: :cry:.
Also in the past I've felt that the wells they are using for the lay-down are actually contributing to the decline on the salt's thickness and I feel the following backs that up...
In this paper...
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/17-salt-blm-1.jpg)
They reference the problems that drawing from those wells is most likely drawing water and salt with it from the racing surface.
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/17-salt-blm-2.jpg)
Be sure to read paragraph 3 above as they are referring mainly to us there.
The BLM has long known all of the effects of the mining as there have been studies done way before these that have predicted the decline of the salt flats,
Sumner
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(http://i65.tinypic.com/zlx7aa.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2jczqcz.jpg)
Main image may be a bit small to read but its from the information about the mining in the area at the interpretive centre
other relevant comment is on the right of the full size poster
"The process of extracting minerals from the flats requires the simultaneous draining and flooding of vast areas "
Returning the brine to the flats is not for our benefit merely part of the mining process
In my opinion the only way to reverse the loss is to stop the pumps, let the evaporation basin return to normal hydrology bringing the salt to the surface again, its never going to be as thick as it once was
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:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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STS & the Utah Alliance don't want the mining to go away because they believe the pumping program is helping to replenish the salt. Time has proven to me that is not the case & all that is doing is helping to move more product in the slurry. This year there is more area coverage than last year but I believe that is only due to more leaching from the larger runoff (depth) on the flats than normal. While you're in Wendover, take a drive up to the top of a hill so you can see how full the settling ponds are at Intrepid.
I've never seen the pumping in action, can anybody explain how & where that happens?
Supposedly it was going on this year when the runoff water level on the salt was over 2ft deep but then they pulled the plug & drained it all off back to the plant.
I'm having a little trouble understanding the logistics of that, can anybody clarify that for the rest of us? STS or Alliance??
Sid.
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(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/17-salt-blm-4.jpg)
Perceived???? Some how there are 10's of millions of tons of salt south of the highway, but there is no connection to that and the fact that it came from 'somewhere' and the fact that 'somewhere' doesn't now have less salt leaves me to wonder how these people could of graduated from anywhere. It is time for the BS to stop and the current studies seem to have the same mentality.
...I've never seen the pumping in action, can anybody explain how & where that happens?...
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/17-salt-blm-5.jpg)
I haven't seen the manifold that distributes the brine back to north of the highway, but above is where it is suppose to be. The hope is that the brine water will then migrate over the next 12 miles or so north while the salt is under water.
I've also attached one of the BLM papers that can no longer be found on their site that explains a lot of this....depressing reading. I'd like to attach the other that explains the 'lay-down' but it is too large (maybe Jon could post it?). I'll e-mail it to anyone who PM's me their e-mail address,
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Send it, Sum, and Bob and I'll get it available somehow.
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Send it, Sum, and Bob and I'll get it available somehow.
Sent you an email...
Sumner
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Anyone know of any rain on the salt? Anyone working on the courses?
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Looks like dragging weather on the webcam
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Seems that I post this same info every year; it's really a good thing to see newer folks coming aboard.
I use the Weather Underground site, and scroll down to "Almanac".
This will tell you the results for the month. More predicted for tonight.
The "weather Turkeys" call it the monsoon season.
26 Tstorm Thunderstorm
Forecast: 89° | 67°
The 0.12 might 0.12 in The 0.12 might get 1 or 2 " standing water, as the mountains are solId rock, and absorb NOTHING. YOUR RESULTS MAY VARY....
Average: 92° | 69°
0.00 in
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I don't believe the weather forecast. Someone on site would be better. I am no newbee. This is our 48 th year running on the salt.
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Sumner they have graduated--- Magna Cum Laude with a PHD in Fake News and False Studies from DEEP STATE U.
I have just ordered "Smear" to learn just how this Fake News is created and SPUN
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There was a band of rain and thunderstorms that went over Wendover last night. The weather station showed no measurable precipitation on the flats, about .02 inch in Wendover( at the airport) and .75" in the mountains south west which is where the heavier radar image was.
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A little rain will help the salt smooth out after dragging... everyone relax :wink:
:cheers:
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As Mike the Mayor said to me once: "It's a damned desert, it's not going to rain". Lighten up it'll be okay.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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I was told yesterday that they are now dragging at night and it is helping eliminate the high spots.
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say its not so ---learning new tricks :-D
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The late Bob Higbee and now Mike Cook Jr drag at night, makes for better results. Been doing so for many, many years. The SCTA thought process? I can't say.
DW
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Drag SLOWER at night. This has been discussed in certant circles but some refuse to listen. Larry's tnt course was ok but only a 1/4 mile off the end of the road. Got smoother after the 1.5. Further down looks better till you see the SCTA courses that have been drug during the day at 45+ mph. They look like $hit (IMO) . There is potential there to work with and be better than last year. It all depends on the preppers. The salt is hard and dry.
:-D :cheers:
JL222
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45 MPH? Did someone give Freddie and Jim or whomever drags these days -- some speed? I've never seen them over about 10 mph. When Nancy and I drove some shifts for USFRA at night a bunch of years ago -- the truck wouldn't go much faster than 10 (and that was enough 'cause the truck didn't have lights.. :roll: