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Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Jack Gifford on June 26, 2017, 12:51:55 AM



Title: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Jack Gifford on June 26, 2017, 12:51:55 AM
SCTA rules in 1950 included specific "handicaps" for various engine configurations- OHV siamesed ports, OHV individual ports, OHC, DOHC, etc. Included was a 10% handicap for two-stroke engines- it makes sense to me to differentiate them by some amount. At what point did 2-strokes and 4-strokes get "homologated" in the rules?


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: RichFox on June 26, 2017, 08:27:46 AM
As I remember AMA ran the motorcycle classes at that time and used their classes. When SCTA/BNI took over the biked, they went with classes more like the car classes. I think you can still run AMA rules at the BMST event.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Jack Gifford on June 27, 2017, 12:50:29 AM
Sorry- I should have clarified that I wasn't asking about motorcycles; just about engine types in landspeed vehicles.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: jacksoni on June 27, 2017, 06:54:21 AM
I have a gap in my rulebook collection but the specific wording allowing 2 stroke was not present in 2003 but was in 2005 editions. So Was added either in 2004 or 2005. Prior to then, the wording said "Otto" cycle. DOHC "racing engines not based on a regular production block" were advanced 1 engine displacement class until the late '80's. (88 or 89 I think). Until '91 blown gas and fuel engines were advanced 2 engine displacement classes. (streamliners excepted in both of the above differences). Also in '92 (maybe 91) gas and fuel classes were specifically split as were blown and unblown. (made a lot of open class records).  Before then there were specific gas and fuel classes for some categories and not all classes had both as they do today (few exceptions such as production etc)

Dan may chip in with more info or precise dates as mine may be + or - a year.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: jacksoni on June 27, 2017, 07:02:12 AM
I do not recall seeing the 10%handicap rule for 2 strokes but may have missed that somewhere. And you are correct, changes for Vintage engines/ports etc started showing up as well (X, XO XOO classes etc). I can try to check dates if you want but someone with Vintage engine experience/interest may be better able to sort that out.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: RichFox on June 27, 2017, 07:55:09 AM
I do remember before there were supercharged classes, that supercharged engines were advanced two classes. And before twin cam four valve engines were common, they were advanced one class. I don't remember the other exceptions that you mention. When I started running my Turbo GMC, Blown stock head engines ran in the same class as 12 port GMC engines and flatheads with Ardun heads. XX class. There was a 12 port, a blown flathead, and an Ardun running together with me. I am not sure, but I think it was 81 or 82 when the flat head Fords cried enough to get their own safe space. Some years later the blown classes split my GMC out of XX and into XO/B. So. In the vintage engine classes, specifically XO and XXO number of ports still counts. I don't remember it ever being an issue in the rest of the car classes.  


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Jack Gifford on June 28, 2017, 12:24:29 AM
... the specific wording allowing 2 stroke was not present in 2003 but was in 2005 editions. So Was added either in 2004 or 2005. Prior to then, the wording said "Otto" cycle...
This present ruling- allowing 2-stroke engines- is what prompted me to start this discussion [thanks for all the responses!]. It seems strange to me that more records aren't held by 2-stroke powered machines. Yeah, larger engines (class F and up) might be challenging. But for less than three-liter, it seems logical that a 2-stroke would have a huge advantage in potential power. :?


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: dw230 on June 28, 2017, 10:23:27 AM
Maybe the lack of records is due to the fact that no one runs a <3 liter two stroke engine.

DW


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: RichFox on June 28, 2017, 12:35:39 PM
 I don't see any classes or records for two stroke engines in the current rule book. I will say that Jack Costella called recently to talk about thye four cylinder two stroke McCulloch Drone engine he had and was hooking to some chain drive chassis.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: manta22 on June 28, 2017, 06:32:46 PM
Rich;

At one time I had three or four of those McCulloch drone engines. They are nice little engines- 72 lbs and 72 BHP in stock trim. It had a hand adjustable-mixture single-barrel carburetor (wide open, no throttle) and a fixed advance magneto. Inside, it ran ball & roller bearings on the crank mains and rods. The disadvantage is that the crank is very light since it was designed to drive a "flexible" load (propeller) not a drive train.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: RichFox on June 28, 2017, 07:32:04 PM
And not made to run very long. The signal battalion that I was in flew them occasionally as targets.I never got to do anything cool like that.Jack was discussing an Electro Motive crank trigger ignition and some kind of mechanical fuel injection. I should go over there and see whats up.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 29, 2017, 05:26:10 AM
Mike in S A posted this on FB:



Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: panic on June 29, 2017, 07:47:21 AM
Speedy Babbs had an Indian 841 with a drone engine about 50 years ago, opposed boxer - yes?


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: RichFox on June 29, 2017, 08:30:02 AM
Yes opposed four cylinder. Fires the front two cylinders at the same time. 180 degrees later fires the rear two.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: manta22 on June 29, 2017, 08:32:56 AM
Yes, a 4-cylinder opposed configuration. Although they weren't designed for "longevity", they were well made, even had hard chromed aluminum cylinders.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Jack Gifford on June 30, 2017, 12:00:18 AM
So... anybody know of any SCTA (or for that matter ECTA or LTA) records held by 2-stroke powered 4-wheelers in any class whatsoever? Any qualification attempts by such a machine?


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: krusty on June 30, 2017, 05:30:54 AM
Someone must have run a Saab 93 or early 96 with the 3 cyl two stroke. Was Bertil's a 3 cyl?

vic


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: jacksoni on June 30, 2017, 06:21:15 AM
So... anybody know of any SCTA (or for that matter ECTA or LTA) records held by 2-stroke powered 4-wheelers in any class whatsoever? Any qualification attempts by such a machine?
Definitely have seen a Saab or two at Wilmington (ECTA). Don't know the car/driver specifically so can't find the record though.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: RichFox on June 30, 2017, 09:13:18 AM
Years ago thete were some Go Kart powered streamliners that ran. I think the Ballpoint Banana may have been two stroke.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 30, 2017, 09:59:13 AM
I remember a car -- liner, I think, maybe a lakester -- running a snowmobile two stroke at the salt.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: jacksoni on June 30, 2017, 10:20:26 AM
What was the power of the little front drive, rear steer (later lakester) from about 20 years ago? I sort of remember it being started with a pull cord like your average chain saw/lawnmower. Had some handling issues so don't know if made a full pass in that configuration.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: jdincau on June 30, 2017, 10:37:35 AM
I think the "Ballpoint Banana" K streamliner ran a 4 cyl Evenrude outboard 2 stroke


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Sumner on June 30, 2017, 09:02:33 PM
I remember a car -- liner, I think, maybe a lakester -- running a snowmobile two stroke at the salt.

Seems like I remember the Hudson Boys running a different motor in this car....

(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/hudson-boys-1.jpg)

(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/hudson-boys-2.jpg)

.... but that was 2007 so I wouldn't go on my memory alone  :oops:,

Sumner


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Jack Gifford on July 01, 2017, 12:33:42 AM
Thanks for those examples.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Stainless1 on July 02, 2017, 08:52:40 PM
Arnold's Ballpoint Banana was a 2 Stroke Evinrude
The rear steer Liner had two 2 stroke motors
2 strokes were not handicapped as far as I can remember.... but then again, they were only allowed in special construction and motorcycles until sometime in the 90's.  That is when the SCTA decided that non-automobile (motorcycle motors) could be used in other than special construction.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Tman on July 04, 2017, 08:00:16 PM
I remember a car -- liner, I think, maybe a lakester -- running a snowmobile two stroke at the salt.
The Daryll Zipp car from the early 2000's


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: joea on July 05, 2017, 09:59:05 AM
an old posts from 2008 about some 2 stroke streamliner cars:

"".... the car you mean is the first streamliner which Tom Burkland built.

A while he runs with a yellow as base color, on the bottom was two orange strip and the top something like purple.The number was 41 and runs in K/GS class - later Zimmermann used the car and changed the base color into red with a checkered flag on and a splashed Duck on the nose, was sponsored by Jaz  ..."ie Jaz Production Special"

In George D. Lepp book "Bonneville Salt Flats" from 1988 is a good picture from the Snoopy version - you can find this book is in the most library."""


This Burkdoll car holds currently the K/GS record. This car was destroyed when Bo Burkdoll rolled the car during the World of Speed in September 2004.

"""...........- the car he asked was the Tom/Gene Burkland built streamliner - Mays runs them originally and set a record in J/GS - before this streamliner runs in K/GS - and as I remember he ownes this record in K/GS too, before it was broken by the the Burkdoll Family. When the car runs in K/GS he used a 443 cc snowmobil engine and had this famous Snoopy Airplane window paintshop on.
Later Zimmermann used the car and run a K/BGS engine for a record which is still in the record list.

The records this streamliner set are - in J/GS 215 mph - in K/BGS 201.7 mph.

The Burkdoll record in K/GS is 202 mph. """


also : http://www.saabplanet.com/saab-96-bonneville-land-speed-record-for-saab/


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: DallasV on July 05, 2017, 01:40:32 PM
an old posts from 2008 about some 2 stroke streamliner cars:



This Burkdoll car holds currently the K/GS record. This car was destroyed when Bo Burkdoll rolled the car during the World of Speed in September 2004.



also : http://www.saabplanet.com/saab-96-bonneville-land-speed-record-for-saab/

I think Jim Burkdoll set the K/GS in the little bluebird streamliner not the streamliner that was destroyed, if I remember right. The little streamliner that Burklands build for Nick was was the proof of concept car for their big 450MPH streamliner. Good data Joe


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on July 05, 2017, 06:55:13 PM
These were two ECTA angry bumblebees!  :x :x :x


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: ggl205 on July 07, 2017, 09:41:57 AM
I was wondering when a 2-stroke Saab would find its way into LSR. What about the DKW?

John


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: manta22 on July 07, 2017, 11:04:08 AM
John;

Re DKW:

Back in the early '60s I saw a Deutch-Bonnet racing on the Nurburgring. I think those were small 2-strokes as well.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Stan Back on July 08, 2017, 03:15:15 PM
Outside of the Vintage Engine requirements (handicaps?), the only other current one that I know of (not Steam, Turbine or Electric) is the displacement "adjustment" for rotaries.

Bikes still retain an "adjustment" for flatheads.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: tortoise on July 08, 2017, 07:52:35 PM
John;

Re DKW:

Back in the early '60s I saw a Deutch-Bonnet racing on the Nurburgring. I think those were small 2-strokes as well.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Deutsch-Bonnet. Four-stroke air cooled boxer pushrod twin, sourced from Panhard.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: manta22 on July 09, 2017, 09:58:27 AM
John;

Re DKW:

Back in the early '60s I saw a Deutch-Bonnet racing on the Nurburgring. I think those were small 2-strokes as well.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Deutsch-Bonnet. Four-stroke air cooled boxer pushrod twin, sourced from Panhard.

I stand corrected....but it sure sounded like a 2-stroke!

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Jack Gifford on July 10, 2017, 12:38:01 AM
Neil- thanks for the interesting PM about the 'Ring. At one race (don't recall which one) I enjoyed the contrasting sounds of multi-cylinder GP cars versus Jim Hall's booming big V8 in the Chapparal (sp?). He looked good for a lap or two but broke a driveshaft.


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: manta22 on July 10, 2017, 10:02:11 AM
Jack;

The old Nurburgring was fantastic- difficult to drive and dangerous but totally unique. The new course is different but safer.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: Rex Schimmer on July 11, 2017, 08:12:29 PM
I think that about 750 cc (45 cu. in.) is about the biggest "performance" two stroke was ever built , that would be the Yamaha TZ750, which was a true race engine and both Suzuki and Kawasaki modified street engines to compete. A good TZ750 was good for up to around 150 hp (some could have been a bit higher) but the real "killer" two strokes were the last of the GP two stroke motors, 500 cc's and 250 hp! They had BMEPs over 300 psi! better than any four stroke has ever made. All  that horsepower from an engine that had no valves and was completely dependent on the resonate frequency of the intake and exhaust tracts to make power! Very impressive motors. Would love to have one to run in a K class anything.

Rex


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: salt27 on July 11, 2017, 08:52:51 PM
A while he runs with a yellow as base color, on the bottom was two orange strip and the top something like purple.The number was 41 and runs in K/GS class - later Zimmermann used the car and changed the base color into red with a checkered flag on and a splashed Duck on the nose, was sponsored by Jaz  ..."ie Jaz Production Special"


Is this it? (sorry about the poor quality)

If I remember correctly this had a 3 cylinder 2-stroke turbo charged snowmobile engine.

  Don


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: salt27 on July 11, 2017, 08:57:59 PM
I think there was a Saab Sonett participating at Bonneville in 2016.

Which event I don't remember (they all intermingle in my memory bank)   :|

  Don


Title: Re: Engine "handicaps"
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on July 12, 2017, 08:10:41 AM
Don, that was 6797 that I posted earlier from ECTA - they were at Speed Week. Best speed was 120.55 mph.