Landracing Forum
Tech Information => EFI Questions => Topic started by: Sequim Jim on March 30, 2017, 07:59:18 AM
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I'm sorry if this has been discussed but I can't find any information to confirm my jetting problem.
I built a turbocharged Yamaha R1. Originally I planned to run C12 but became worried I would start pinging at higher boost. So far I haven't find a way to retard my timing.
My next option is E85 to alcohol. My current main jets in my Mikunis are 130s. My idle jets are 15s. I've been told to start with 180 for the main and leave the bottom end alone.
Is this correct? I have a AEM AFR gauge to find tune my fuel ratio, I just need a starting point.
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A good starting point for Ethanol (E85) is 30% more fuel above what you would use with C12/C16. Typically, you also want a touch lower reading using the gas scale with Ethanol. e.g. If you like running 11.5:1 with C12 on boost, then target 11.3:1 with E85.
I also would highly recommend running a race grade "E85". The best I have found is Ignite race fuels. They make a 114 octane (Ignite Red) that is 90% ethanol. Cost is also less than the big names, if you can find a local distributor.
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Jim, check to see if any of the ignition modules that Dynojet will help. I have one for my H2 Ninja but have not set it up. The Kwack's internal sensors will detect knock in a matter of a few rpm and start taking out timing in 2 degree increments until the problem stops and then start adding timing back in. Ideally you would want something that backs timing off as boost increases, but second best might be to have the timing retard at a certain speed and monitor the settings on the dyno. With as many people on the forum who run turbos, there has to be a pretty standard solution besides just adding octane.
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Jim it may be easier to go EFI with a simple standalone
jetting can have you pulling the carbs so many times its not funny anymore , although i know the R1 blow thru setup is well documented and there are many examples of easy fit and use the E85 opens another can of worms
BTW if you dont mind some thoughts on your bike setup
I would put the fuel tank behind the plenum so you can get lower and reduce your screen height
route the up pipe elsewhere so your leg is in tight , is it going to ice tank in rear ?
carry an alternate version cut down tail with less side area in case of handling problems or side wind
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I've been flogging the methanol/supercharger dead horse combo for 5 years now Jim, & I'm "nearly there"
Maj is right, EFI is the way to go, but, if you're as stubborn as I, you will sort carbs out, eventually, although my setup is draw thru, the a/f needs are the same as blow thru.
Start with at least +2.2 times more fuel than you would need with gas,,,+ 2.5 is safer, this includes ALL jets, not just the main jets, make sure the needle jets are at least .001" larger than your mains.( there's quite a bit of math involved in calculating needle / needle jet sizes)
Remember,,a methanol engine that runs fine during test runs will run the risk of lean out as the cylinder head temp increases, and excessive heat & lean mixture = detonation,(I hope you have good piston stocks)
Heat is forced inducted engine's enemy, intercooling makes sense to overcome that, but with that (& carbs) methanol tends to drop out of suspension,
O2 sensors don't like methanol either (unless you use expensive ones) & tend to tell lies until you get the mixture "right"
A byproduct of methanol burning, is water, especially on initial start up, water kills O2 sensors.
Plug reading is the best way to find out why your engine died, not if it will die,,as is egt reading, but it all helps to get you there.
Enjoy,,,,,,
Tiny
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Thanks everybody.
I tried finding a EFI for my bike (2001 R1 20 valve) and didn't have any luck. I contacted every ignition company and the only solution was to build a sliding/rotating plate for my ignition sensor.
I hired an electronic engineer to design a device that electronically retarded the timing and it failed.
As for the tank. I'm 6'4", so the tank height was set as the lowest I could get and still be comfortable. The icebox is behind my seat and the battery mounted ahead of the rear wheel on the swingarm. This helps balance the bike. Because I'm so big, most of my weight was up front. About 70% of the bike/rider total weight on the front wheel. I was afraid of losing traction. The seat area allows me to move back and forth several inches, to help balance the bike as needed.
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Here is the naked version of my bike.
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Some carb makers have alcohol kits with all of the little parts. Years ago I installed one. There were a lot of things in the kit besides jets. It was either a Mikuni or Keihin carb. Sudco should have what you need and they have an on-line catalog. It is important that the fuel tank breather, needle valve, and pet cock can handle the flow. It is more than a simple jet change.
Also, a clear gas line was installed that ran from the bottom of the float chamber and went up alongside the float bowl. It had an open end. The height that gasoline was in it was measured. Then, the alcohol gas mix was used. The float tang was bent a little bit so the height of alky mix in the tube was the same as it was with gasoline. Then the tube was taken off. It was only used to reset the float height.
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I hope that you don't think that methanol will cure all your detonation issues,,, it will NOT....
Methanol is equal to about 116 octane .....and it will detonate horribly if pushed too far......
I've messed with supercharged motors for a long time, and the longevity key is to keep the dynamic compression ratio and the spark timing under the fuel's stability limit.
Big Big Questions: what is your target boost pressure and what is the static compression ratio of the engine????
I currently run a carbureted supercharged air-cooled pushrod twin on gasoline.... It doesn't get any more difficult managing the thermal issues...
Smitty
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I replaced the stock pistons and conrods with CP Carillo 10 to 1 turbo pistons and h-beam conrods. I removed the factory head stubs and installed longer, stronger head studs. The valve springs are designed to handle 35 lbs of boost. My cam timing is 114 degrees. I have a Magnaflow fuel pump and regulator. The bike is running on 10 lbs of boost. I'm hoping for 25 pounds.
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OK Jim,,, this looks doable but you should know know how close to the limit you will be....
In order to calculate your dynamic compression ratio I need to know:
Connecting rod length and when the Intake valve closes after BDC,,, (on seat and at .040" is best)
Is the 114 degrees overlap ?
If your ECU has spark knock sensing w/auto retard you have an easier safer path forward...
Smitty
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I'm sorry I didn't keep the paperwork that came with the conrods, so I don't know the length of the rods.
Here are my notes for cam timing that came from Hurricane Performance in Canada (this company builds 700+hp snowmobiles based on the R1 engine). Hurricane supplied most of my parts and gave some build advice.
Intake
Valve opens 1mm at 3 degrees Before Top Dead Center. At 51 degrees After Bottom Dead Center it is closing but is open 1 mm. That should equal 114 degrees overlap.
Exhaust
At 50 degree Before Bottom Dead Center the valve opens 1 mm. At 2 degrees After Top Dead Center the valve is closing but is still open 1 mm. That equals 114 degrees.
When I changed the valve timing I used a slotted cam gear. The movement was unnoticeable to my eye but the cam timing wheel made it easy to a point. The bike started right up with a little bit of choke and ran pretty good on 10 lbs of boost with auto gas.
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Found the conrod information.
Yamaha YZF-R1 98-03
Stock rod length is 110.50mm
Part Number Type Bolt Size Length PE Width BE Width BE Bore Pin Dia
YA-YZF>1-8M4350S PRO-H 8mm CARR 110.50mm 18.03mm 20.80mm 39.014mm 17mm
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Got it !
I'll run the numbers and get back to you....
Smitty
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The numbers are as follows :
4500' elevation, 25 psi boost, gives a 20.98:1 dynamic compression ratio at the torque peak
6000' " " " " " " 20.17:1 " " " " "" " "
7500' " " " " " " 19.36:! " " " " " " "
4500' 15 psi 15.70:1
7500' " " 14.49:1
I think I'd go with 15 psi of boost, and test very carefully from there.
I'm running 12.4:1 Dynamic CR with 116 octane race gas in a hot running (400 degree F) air-cooled motor and I get a bit of detonation when the race gas gets the least bit old and stale. My static CR is 8.4:1 and I run with of 12 psi of boost...
If you want to make really high boost with big HP numbers,,,,, drop that static CR to 7:1 and run chilled water in your intercooler ,,,,
Note: at the HP peak the dynamic CR will be 8% to 15% lower than at the torque peak due to less cylinder fill time at higher rpm.
Boost pressure is not the end-all be-all of making power,,, Cubic Feet of Air being processed is...
An Engine that breathes very well can make more power with 7.5 psi of boost than another less efficient engine with 12 psi of boost...
Keep in mind that at the Drag strip, motor can tolerate a lot more compression for a few seconds than engines running flat out for mile after mile...
I hope some of this helps you get going with that Yamaha 5-valve...a great little motor....
Good luck and ride safe,
Smitty
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Smitty,
If I understand you correctly. I can run C12 or C16 at 15 lbs of boost without changing my timing. I have an icebox that I planned to run either dry ice or an ice/glycol mix. My wife is mailing in my entry fee this week and I need to decide if I will enter as a MPS-BG or MPS-BF.
I really appreciate your help!!!
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Yes, you should be able to run C-16 (116 octane or higher if available) race gas very easily if the ECU has knock sensing/auto-retard at 12-15 psi boost levels.
If the ECU doesn't have Knock sensing then you will have to "tread lightly"... Start at 8-10 psi, 11:1 fuel ratio, and max boost only at high rpm and see what is what.
Methanol would provide a lot more cooling of the fuel-air mixture, the internal combustion chamber parts, and would yield 10%+ more HP at the crank,,,But it is a lot more trouble and work to swap from gasoline and tricky toget things just right. If you get it the least bit wrong, your pistons will fail...
Especially If you are running carbs, I'd use race gas to sort out the turbo system and swap over at later date to methanol,,,,,, one can of worms at a time is best...
Are you running SCTA , AMA, or both???
Smitty
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How are your wiring skills Jim ? pretty sure you could put a Powercommander with ign module from a later injected R1 on the ignition only and run a 0-5v from a map sensor rather than tps to get some sort of ign control
I understand the tall bit and fit on the bike , we move the pegs back with spacers on the 750 so it is both easier to get the back flat and room for elbows and knees without clashing
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You can change class at registration without fee the first time. That is -- it won't cost you to change from what you write down to what you run.
I think...
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You're right.
When you get your Registration Package while waiting for Inspection, you should review it (including the respective Engine and Body Codes) and make sure it's right. And -- in case something has changed since you sent in your Entry (or you want to change it) -- now's the time, before Inspection, to do it.
Entering without the correct Engine and Body Codes will negate all runs before you figure that out.
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How are your wiring skills Jim ? pretty sure you could put a Powercommander with ign module from a later injected R1 on the ignition only and run a 0-5v from a map sensor rather than tps to get some sort of ign control
I understand the tall bit and fit on the bike , we move the pegs back with spacers on the 750 so it is both easier to get the back flat and room for elbows and knees without clashing
My wiring skills are good, but it sounds like I'm back to square one trying to retard my timing. I sent emails to Power Commander and MSD trying to find a solution. The last few years have been frustrating trying to resolve the timing issue.
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Hi Jim,,,
If your OEM Ignition has spark knock sensing then it will automatically pull two degrees of spark advance at a time till the knock goes away....
I had this on a Yamaha factory turbo Seca from the early '80s......Only way it would survive running only 91 octane....
You probably don't need anything else if it is there....
I'd check the parts catalog of that bike for a knock transducer, check with R1 chat rooms online, and /or call Yamaha North America customer service...
You may be trying to fix a problem that Yamaha has already dealt with.....
Smitty
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Just a thought: have you checked with Factory Pro? I know they have made (in the past) timing plates to move the sensor for several bikes.
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Powercommander etc probably will not be of help, if its not plug into original fitment there usually not interested
But as your electronic ign on the carb bike is similar in operation to the ignition side of the efi bike several yrs later the same type of intercept and adjust technology should work , you will be hardwiring , and do you have 2 coils with leeds rather than 4 stick coils
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One of my mates has turbo'd several R1s , EFI models, he once commented that the 5 valve head was not as easy to get to survive as other bikes he had done (Brett at Pace motorsports in Western Australia ), take small steps
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I sent Factory Pro an email requesting information about their timing stars. It was suggested that I try a Dynatek Darc-2 cdi box and the universal kit. Power Commander stated they didn't have anything that would work for me. MGD told me they have a box that might work if I buy their coils and cdi for $1400 and build my own program.
I hope I don't get Facebook beat up for this but I contacted Dave at Hurricane Performance for advice. He supplied my parts and build advice. Dave suggested that I start around 15 lbs of boost on Q16 fuel and keep on AFR ratio to 10.8 to 11.2. Dave said I could go to 35 lbs of boost on VP Import without changing timing. Based on this I sent an email to Tom Henriott of VP Fuel (Texas) and told him about my problem. He agreed and suggested an AFR of 11.3 to 11.5. Any thoughts?
If I run Q16 or Import does that put me in the Blown Fuel class?
I currently don't have a crew, can I leave that blank on my entry form until I find a crew?
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I'll say it straight up,,,, I don't think you can run more than a few seconds over 15 lb of boost without some serious thermal issues with your. 10:1 static CR ...
Diesel compression ratios run around 18 to 21 to 1 and diesel fuel is a lot more stable than gasoline...
You might be very surprise just how much power is produced at 8 to 10 lb of boost if the turbo is well matched to the motor (meaning low backpressure),,, it is all about thru putting maximum CFM of air and the air being as dense (oxygen bearing)as practical ...
Q16 is oxygenated and will put you in the fuel class,, if you run Gasoline at Bonneville you have to use ERC brand gas from the onsite fuel truck...Fuel class and you can bring your own gas/fuel...
Dave is right on about 10.8 to 11.2 A/F ratio....
You can add the crew name when you get there...
Get some good earplugs and wear them,,,you just might need them should the motor go BOOM at 35 lb of boost..
Smitty
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ARC2 is a good option its not exactly mappable but will pull about 10 deg timing at a set point and has a spark you can weld with , so rich A/F is not the problem it may be for weaker ign systems
we used one on the last yr , set the switch point to 20 psi , running 11.2-11.6
wastegate settings didn't work out the same at BMST as on the dyno and we ran 19 psi and hurt it at the end of the timed mile
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I'll say it straight up,,,, I don't think you can run more than a few seconds over 15 lb of boost without some serious thermal issues with your. 10:1 static CR ...
Diesel compression ratios run around 18 to 21 to 1 and diesel fuel is a lot more stable than gasoline...
You might be very surprise just how much power is produced at 8 to 10 lb of boost if the turbo is well matched to the motor (meaning low backpressure),,, it is all about thru putting maximum CFM of air and the air being as dense (oxygen bearing)as practical ...
Q16 is oxygenated and will put you in the fuel class,, if you run Gasoline at Bonneville you have to use ERC brand gas from the onsite fuel truck...Fuel class and you can bring your own gas/fuel...
Dave is right on about 10.8 to 11.2 A/F ratio....
You can add the crew name when you get there...
Get some good earplugs and wear them,,,you just might need them should the motor go BOOM at 35 lb of boost..
Smitty
My goal isn't 35 lbs of boost. I would be happy at a solid 15 to 20 lbs of boost. I need reliability and smoothness. From there I think I can ride thru the problems of traction and sidewind.
BTW, I have been riding soft and loose gravel roads in rural farmland for decades on Z1s, Ninjas, FJRs, R1s, etc, at over 100 mph. If my engine runs good I will stay up. Any idiot knows a coughing engine will KILL you.