Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: TrickyDicky on February 02, 2017, 01:24:58 PM

Title: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 02, 2017, 01:24:58 PM
Who holds the FIA class A-I-12 record?

If your response is “Who cares?” I suggest you stop reading now.

If you are still with me …

The FIA modified the larger engine classes with effect from 1 January 2016.  Class 9 became 3-4 litre (previously 3-5 litre), Class 10 became 4-6 litre (previously 5-8 litre), Class 11 became 6-7 litre (previously over 8 litre), Class 12 was introduced at 7-8 litre and finally Class 13 at over 8 litres.

Thus the new Class 13 is the same as the old Class 11 and there are now four classes covering 3-8 litres (previously only two).  Although it is now over a year since the new classes came into existence, the FIA has not published updated records.

Which is how I found myself asking “who are the current holders of records in the new classes?”  It is by no means easy to work it out from the information freely available on the internet, and A-I-12 turns out to be particularly interesting.

In 2002 Al Teague set FIA records in Class A-I-10 at 406.xxx mph (1 kilometre flying start) and 405.xxx (mile).  As far as I can tell the engine size used was either 424 c.i. (6.95 litre) or 470 c.i. (7.7 litre).  So these runs might fit into either the new Class A-I-11 or A-I-12.

In 2012 George Poteet/Speed Demon set FIA records at 439.xxx mph for both the mile and kilometre using a 368 c.i. (6.03 litre) motor, so beating Al’s speeds and setting what I believe remains the A-I-11 record (but the engine was only just in that class).

However, if Al was using the 470 c.i. engine then he is a strong candidate to be the current A-I-12 record holder.

There is another reason to be uncertain.  In 2010 Amir Rosenbaum/Spectre SpeedLiner ran two way averages of 407.xxx for the mile and kilometre using a 485 c.i. (7.95 litre) engine with the timing under FIA conditions.  Whilst faster than Al these were not records because the 1% rule was still in force (meaning the speed required to set an official record was about 410 mph).  So Amir’s speeds were probably not submitted to the FIA and could not be official records.

If Al was running in what is now A-I-11 in 2002 then who else is a candidate for the A-I-12 record?

This is the point at which even I think of giving up.  The answer depends in part on the size of the Chevy motor in Nolan White’s Autopower streamliner …  Driven by Rick White, this vehicle set FIA records of 383.xxx mph (kilometre) and 384.xxx (mile) in 1990.  If the Autopower was running in what is now the A-I-12 class then I think they could be the current records.  If not, we might be going back to Bob Herda in the 1960s.

So, to summarise:

Phew!

There must be flaws in the above analysis so please tell me (politely :-)) where I have screwed up.  Or am I :dhorse:?

I am now beginning to understand why it is taking so long for the FIA to publish the list of current record holders for the not-so-new classes. :-o
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: trimmers on February 03, 2017, 05:17:31 PM
Well, the answer - according to the FIA's website - is "nobody"! 

It skips directly from the old 5L-8L, A-I-10 (with Speed Demon I in there at 439+) to A-I-13, with no listings at all for A-I-11 or A-I-12.

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

So, if you can book your spot with Cook now, and you're first in line - you could end up holding the record yourself - but probably not for very long!
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: trimmers on February 03, 2017, 05:25:29 PM
But seriously folks, I wonder if DW (or whoever) kept records on actual engine size, or just verified that size was within class limits.  Without the former, it may be impossible to sort it out for this class.  Maybe other classes, too. 
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: dw230 on February 03, 2017, 09:13:32 PM
If you are referring to me as DW I don't "keep" records for FIA. I do the certification, hand the paperwork to the FIA steward(Dave Petreli) and let history take its course. I rely on the FIA/FIM to publish and maintain any records.

The OP asks who owns a record in a class approx. two years old. If the class started as open and no one has run it follows that the class remains open. Contrary to opinions and wishes there is not much competition in the LSR arm of motor sports.

DW
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: PorkPie on February 04, 2017, 04:12:25 AM
For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

I was the other day in contact with the FIA.....as I mentioned after the class changes...it will be tough to get all the necessary engine sizes....

and this is the reason why there is currently no clean up in the classes with the new displacement sizes...this was a comment I got.....

I was asked about several records...I have speed and time, but not the exact engine size.....and the question is, if it's possible to get all this numbers

Dan (Warner) done over the years a very accurate job....but some of the records go way back before his time....hope they took so care as Dan...and the paperwork still exist.
for Bonneville, maybe Dave Petrali got this data's in his files....

it's possible that an old Mercedes Record from Dessau 1939 will be back in the record list.....

to Amir Rosenbaum and his Speed by Spectre......he is one of the "loser" under the old 1 percent rule.....he didn't broke the record under the old rule....so his average will never be a record...bad luck for him...but he is not alone.....
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: trimmers on February 04, 2017, 06:59:20 AM
If you are referring to me as DW I don't "keep" records for FIA.

Well, of course I was referring to you.  However, I guess "keep" was a poor choice in wording.   The real question for this thread would be: when you're doing a certification, do you include the actual engine size (or just the fact that it's within class limits) in the paperwork you give to Dave Petrali?
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 04, 2017, 05:02:11 PM
...

The OP asks who owns a record in a class approx. two years old. If the class started as open ...

DW

I don't think that's how the FIA works. The classes are not open - the FIA are just taking a while publishing the re-distribution of existing records amongst the new classes.

This may only come to a head if someone wants to challenge records in these classes at the 2017 Shootout.
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 04, 2017, 05:04:59 PM
For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...

it's possible that an old Mercedes Record from Dessau 1939 will be back in the record list.....

...

Thomas, I'm not sure about Dessau 1939, but how about Gyon 1934?
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 04, 2017, 05:12:52 PM
Well, the answer - according to the FIA's website - is "nobody"! 

...

For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...

I don't think the FIA web site should be interpreted as stating "nobody". It's simply that they are reviewing who should be recorded as the current record holder.

FWIW, there is (yet another) FIA typo: the date should be 31.12.2015
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: Malcolm UK on February 05, 2017, 07:27:32 AM
I am glad that you did not give up 'Tricky', as you have exposed a problem with what might have seemed at first to be a good idea in the FIA Commission.

A simple way forward would have been, and still could be, to place all of the existing records in a place where they could be seen, but no longer challenged. Other speed governing bodies have used this method. Anyone holding a record prior to January 2016 will be a world record holder forever, with a speed that could not be 'beaten'.

The three new capacity divisions would then be deemed 'open' and new challengers for the short distance flying start records would need to form an orderly line at the 'Shootout 2017'. With entries and fees to be paid that would be a "win - win" for the event organiser for the entry fees and for the FIA with its facility and ratification fees.

The longer this drags on who will take any interest in challenging records in these capacity divisions. Do not forget that the 'unblown' category in spark ignition and both of the diesel catagories (blown and unblown) face the same problem!

The only hope that I have is that, if it is proven that Amir with Speed by Spectre did not have to (on paper) run against Al's speeds there could surely still be sufficient information available today for a retrospective claim (with an appropriate fee of course) to be made on beating the 'slower' speed of Rick White, should they still wish to be an FIA World record holder.   
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: PorkPie on February 05, 2017, 02:31:51 PM
"Tricky",

about record breaking in the 30's in Europe...

1934 - Gyon (Hungaria)...Mercedes use here a straight "Autobahn" to set new records in the lower classes....mostly modified "Grand Prix" racer

they also run for long distance at the Avus in Berlin

Auto Union used in 1935 a straight country road in Italy....close to Lucca.....Alfa Romeo was the next who used this road....I had the chance to drive this road close to Lucca a couple years ago....it was everything but not safe and several record attempts at this road end in an disaster...

later in 1935 the Autobahn between Darmstadt and Frankfurt was ready to use....Auto Union and Mercedes run at that part of the Autobahn...later MG (Goldie Gardner) joint the German teams.

January 1938 Rosemeyer had there his fatal accident....meanwhile a Autobahn close to Dessau was in built.....especially built for the Mercedes T80. The three axle streamliner with the big aero engine installed.....the goal was to reach 600+ km/h (app. 375 mph) on this Autobahn part....but first it was used, again for the smaller classes from Mercedes - after Rosemeyer's accident Auto Union stepped back from record breaking.....Mercedes run two nearly identical "Cigar"...one for standing start and one for flying start...the flying start version had engine issues...but they found out that the standing start fuel tank was big enough to go for the flying records...Carraciola run in the category from 2-3 liter....
121-180 ci.....nearly 400 km/h (248 mph)...the successful Frankfurt car had also engine issues....he had tires rated for 300+ mph...the idea was to go with this streamliner over 300.......this was in February 1939...and this was the last record attempts.....
The T80 "run" only one time....as a roller without engine downhill at an Autobahn part called "Bocksberg"....

one of the standing starts record was broken in the 60's by Mickey Thompson....and another record will be back into the record book....have to check which one....

About Amir....if the FIA accept this runs as a record....than there will be a "flood" of requests to get "no to be records by the 1 percent rule".....into the record book....

About the date 2014....in 2015 no record was set in this displacement sizes....the only record in 2015 was the Buckeye Electric car....and this streamliner is not effected from this change...
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: Malcolm UK on February 05, 2017, 04:53:08 PM
Pork Pie,

As Amir did not beat the record in the class as it existed before the extra sub divisions by 1% I can understand why he was not in the record book or allowed to be put forward for a record. However, if as Tricky has analysed the available data, Amir might be accepted as a valid entrant in the new Class 12, where he could have been running against the Rick White speed, (not the Al Teague speed), a speed which he exceeded by much more than 1%, so a speed record which would have been accepted under the 1%. The situation is just one of correcting to the new class divisions, not worrying about the now lost 1% :?.  The new classes were published in Appendix D in December 2015 for use from January 2016.

[I have disliked the application of the 1% rule to the Absolute World Records list.  Why,because the standing start one mile World record in class A-XV-10 is taken as the accepted 'absolute World record' at 97.983 mph, yet the World record in A-II-1 for the standing start 1 mile is accepted at 98.093 mph. Glad the 1% rule is no more, but the absolute "fastest speed regardless of Group, category, class" clearly has not been revisited. Sorry, ammunition for another thread probably on a different forum. :evil:]
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: PorkPie on February 05, 2017, 05:13:41 PM
Malcolm,

seeing it the way as you (from the view of an now slower record)....this would be great for Amir....

But the reality is unfortunately different....since when did the FIA "correct" his record list after a rule change....over the last 70...maybe 90 years...never....so much changes was done without any correction to earlier runs which was effect by the old rule....

when the first two way record was set at Brooklands (Hornsted) the record was slower than the previous record.....in 64/65 they need also a while to clean up the mess....

and the easiest solution...so as the FIM done it a long time ago....just freeze the old record and start again....using old records when they match into the new class...finish....

hope that the FIA can make a clean cut before the record season (under FIA) 2017 starts....otherwise we will have a nightmare....when the current record is unknown...
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 06, 2017, 02:51:29 AM
Malcolm,

...

when the first two way record was set at Brooklands (Hornsted) the record was slower than the previous record.....


Question for the historians: I understand the two-way rule was put in place (in Europe, anyway) in 1911. So why did it take three years for the first two-way record to be set?
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 06, 2017, 02:55:06 AM
...

and the easiest solution...so as the FIM done it a long time ago....just freeze the old record and start again....using old records when they match into the new class...finish....

...

As someone interested in the history of LSR, where can I find a complete list of the "frozen" FIM records (from 1979 I believe).
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: Malcolm UK on February 06, 2017, 07:06:45 AM
May be of use to you Tricky - the official FIM word on 'frozen records' is as follows:

"Due to the new method of calculation, introduced by the FIM TECHNICAL COMMISSION in JANUARY 1978, short distance records made prior to this date are absolute and therefore cannot be broken.
Consequently, these records are definite and cannot be broken. They are included in a separate section of the World Records Book (1979 Publication) for historical purposes only".

[I have not seenthe 1979 publication myself ].
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: Malcolm UK on February 06, 2017, 07:26:15 AM
and the easiest solution...so as the FIM done it a long time ago....just freeze the old record and start again....using old records when they match into the new class...finish....hope that the FIA can make a clean cut before the record season (under FIA) 2017 starts

I share your hope that the classes are clearly defined with 'open records', where a division of capacity has not been used before. It is some years since I had to fill out an International (world) record attempt application form, but in the past I thought the entrant had to signify which existing records they would be attempting to exceed. If the FIA cannot produce a list, then entry forms in some classes could be only partially completed, (which may make them ineligible). The powers that be have a few months to sort it all out.

As to the 1911 to 1914 'gap' I think it may just have been a lack of fast European cars being made ready or available. Fred Kasmann's listing shows few drivers made attempts. 
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 07, 2017, 09:36:29 AM
May be of use to you Tricky - the official FIM word on 'frozen records' is as follows:

"Due to the new method of calculation, introduced by the FIM TECHNICAL COMMISSION in JANUARY 1978, short distance records made prior to this date are absolute and therefore cannot be broken.
Consequently, these records are definite and cannot be broken. They are included in a separate section of the World Records Book (1979 Publication) for historical purposes only".

[I have not seen the 1979 publication myself ].

So it was the records as they stood at the end of 1977 that were frozen?

Also meaning that Don Vesco’s records set in August 1978 on/in the Kawasaki Lightning Bolt must have been amongst the first to have been set under the “new” rules.
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 07, 2017, 09:55:35 AM
For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...

it's possible that an old Mercedes Record from Dessau 1939 will be back in the record list.....

...

Thomas, I'm not sure about Dessau 1939, but how about Gyon 1934?


My reading of the history books is that the Mercedes records set in 1939 at Dessau used a 3 litre engine (Class D as it was then, now Class A-I-8).  Therefore they cannot be current FIA records.

On the other hand, in October 1934 Rudolf Caracciola with the Mercedes Benz W25 set Class C records of 197.347 mph (kilometre) and 196.775 mph (mile). Rather unusually the engine size was just under 4 litres in a 3-5 litre class.  As far as I can tell these should be the current FIA A-I-9 class records.
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: trimmers on February 07, 2017, 05:30:01 PM
Also meaning that Don Vesco’s records set in August 1978 on/in the Kawasaki Lightning Bolt must have been amongst the first to have been set under the “new” rules.

Kawasaki?  Did FIM change their classes simultaneously with FIA?
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 07, 2017, 06:05:52 PM
Also meaning that Don Vesco’s records set in August 1978 on/in the Kawasaki Lightning Bolt must have been amongst the first to have been set under the “new” rules.

Kawasaki?  Did FIM change their classes simultaneously with FIA?

Apologies for any confusion - there are two conversations going on at once. FIA rules changed January 2016 and I have learnt here that FIM rules changed January 1978?
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: PorkPie on February 08, 2017, 02:06:30 PM
For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...



...




My reading of the history books is that the Mercedes records set in 1939 at Dessau used a 3 litre engine (Class D as it was then, now Class A-I-8).  Therefore they cannot be current FIA records.

On the other hand, in October 1934 Rudolf Caracciola with the Mercedes Benz W25 set Class C records of 197.347 mph (kilometre) and 196.775 mph (mile). Rather unusually the engine size was just under 4 litres in a 3-5 litre class.  As far as I can tell these should be the current FIA A-I-9 class records.

"Tricky", sorry that I didn't answer before...we had for the last two days no phone or internet connection at my town...

I understand now what you like to say.....

Dessau 1939 was under 3 liter...no changes in the new FIA list

Gyon 1934, the engine was close to 4 liter....and the later record breakers used engines closer to 5 liter....maybe there will be not only a change on the short distance...the same engine was used at the Avus for long distance.....

I checked the record lists I got....digital goes back for about 20 years....unfortunately I have no complete list from the time before the big changes in 1965....

the record from Herda (1965) and Hoffman & Markley (1992) was set with bigger engines...H & M used a 300 ci (means close to 5 liter)...when I remember right, Herda's engine was similar in the size...

so I have no information which record Herda broke.....did you have any information to this record holder....
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 09, 2017, 08:15:28 AM
For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...




My reading of the history books is that the Mercedes records set in 1939 at Dessau used a 3 litre engine (Class D as it was then, now Class A-I-8).  Therefore they cannot be current FIA records.

On the other hand, in October 1934 Rudolf Caracciola with the Mercedes Benz W25 set Class C records of 197.347 mph (kilometre) and 196.775 mph (mile). Rather unusually the engine size was just under 4 litres in a 3-5 litre class.  As far as I can tell these should be the current FIA A-I-9 class records.


.....

I checked the record lists I got....digital goes back for about 20 years....unfortunately I have no complete list from the time before the big changes in 1965....

the record from Herda (1965) and Hoffman & Markley (1992) was set with bigger engines...H & M used a 300 ci (means close to 5 liter)...when I remember right, Herda's engine was similar in the size...

so I have no information which record Herda broke.....did you have any information to this record holder....

My information about Bob Herda's FIA records in the 1960s is very sketchy, so what follows is subject to correction.

In my original post I was speculating on the A-I-12 (7-8 litre) records, which means records from the previous 5-8 litre class (Class B in the early 1960s, which became Class 10 at some time I cannot determine) are the candidates.

My "research" indicates that Bob Herda set FIA records on four occasions, three in Class B (October 1964, October 1965 and November 1967) and one in Class C (November 1965).  Probably, the Class B records used a 7+ litre engine.  There are references to 442 c.i., 446 and 448 c.i. but I cannot confirm the capacity of the engine that was used to set any particular FIA record.
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: PorkPie on February 19, 2017, 12:58:37 PM
Tricky,

I got some answer to your very first note in this thread.

when I went through my material about Al Teague for an article I had to write, I found following information.

in 1991 Al run a 493 ci engine...which means 8,0788 liter...this means now engine size 13

in 2002 Al run a 480 ci engine...which means 7.8657 liter...which will get him into the new size 12....

if George Poteet had run his both records in the old 10 in 2012 with the 368 engine (and I got no other information)...his record will be in the new size 11

the 1991 will be in the now size 13 and was broken by Tom Burkland, he was in the mile and the kilo 1 percent quicker than Al....

So Al will be with his 2002 record back into the record book.
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: ronnieroadster on February 19, 2017, 04:44:45 PM
Kind of reminds me of who's on first! Good grief changes for progress. Engine size by numbers from 1 to 25 or more? Not cubes or liter wow what progress.   :-o
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 23, 2017, 08:04:10 AM
Tricky,

I got some answer to your very first note in this thread.

when I went through my material about Al Teague for an article I had to write, I found following information.

in 1991 Al run a 493 ci engine...which means 8,0788 liter...this means now engine size 13

in 2002 Al run a 480 ci engine...which means 7.8657 liter...which will get him into the new size 12....

if George Poteet had run his both records in the old 10 in 2012 with the 368 engine (and I got no other information)...his record will be in the new size 11

the 1991 will be in the now size 13 and was broken by Tom Burkland, he was in the mile and the kilo 1 percent quicker than Al....

So Al will be with his 2002 record back into the record book.

Thank you Thomas.  Are you quoting from the original documentation supporting the record claims?

For Al in 1991 I had 490 c.i., but either way it's over 8 litres so we agree on Class 13.

For 2002 I don't have clear information, but now fairly sure it's 470 c.i. or 480 c.i., so I agree on Class 12 (and should emerge as the current record holder).

I am nearly certain George Poteet in 2012 used the 368 c.i. engine.  The 'Demon's Dozen' book would probably confirm.

It's the Class 9 (3-4 litre) records that are most difficult to track down ...
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: PorkPie on February 23, 2017, 10:36:41 AM
Tricky,


the best source you can get....Al himself..... :-D
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 23, 2017, 11:46:59 PM
So if anything actually changed, would FIA want it's usual Swillion Dollar fee to log it??
  Sid.
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 24, 2017, 01:46:07 AM
So if anything actually changed, would FIA want it's usual Swillion Dollar fee to log it??
  Sid.

What did they charge for investigating and revising the 1991 km record?
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 24, 2017, 11:18:30 AM
Since you like to answer a question with a question instead of simple information, who's mistake was that?
  Sid.
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: jimmy six on February 24, 2017, 11:24:10 AM
Depends on your political preference..... Either Trump or Obama.... In the past it would have George Bushes as we all found out everything was eventually his fault  :cheers:
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: PorkPie on February 24, 2017, 11:34:38 AM
So if anything actually changed, would FIA want it's usual Swillion Dollar fee to log it??
  Sid.

What did they charge for investigating and revising the 1991 km record?


answering both questions....about Al, this was the FIA fault....but it need a long time and a lot of people before they start to move their a......, Al, Louise, Tom (Burkland), me (and some of very good friends of mine who had a good connection to the FIA)...and I have the feeling, if they had not changed the classifications with now 13 engine sizes nothing would happened....

about the changes now with moving up from 11 to 13 engine sizes....you can't charge someone if you himself create this changes...otherwise I would call it, printing money....
in the other hand....it's maybe possible that some record holder can loose their record.........
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on February 24, 2017, 12:54:00 PM
Since you like to answer a question with a question instead of simple information, who's mistake was that?
  Sid.

Probable answers:

          No.

          Nothing.

          Nobody knows for sure.
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: ronnieroadster on February 24, 2017, 04:28:46 PM
Tricky Dicky writes     it's maybe possible that some record holder can loose their record.........
 

 Seems like a complete waste of ones time effort and money FIA should leave stuff alone what's to be gained by all the confusion? You loose a record Oh no another question!
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: PorkPie on February 25, 2017, 02:19:59 PM
Ronnie,

I think it was me, who wrote this "record holder loosing.."

I have to see this engine size change as a historian....and so not only for the flying mile and kilo....the effect all other distance and over the time records in this classes...some of the long distance record with big engines was set a long time ago...

and about the changes from the FIA....

maybe you forgot that in 1991 the SCTA separate the blown and unblown engines....and in 1994 they create a new engine class breaks...so as now done by the FIA...a record from Al Teague was effect by the 1994 change.....
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: Malcolm UK on February 26, 2017, 09:49:47 AM
Are we at a point for summarising this topic?

The FIA can only use the information from ratified speed records that they have, so those involved have paid their $ or £ or yen or whatever for ratification and will surely not have any monetary involvement. [There could be an opportunity for a reprinted certificate to be sold to any competitor, a certificate which changes just the class number and the cubic capacity figures!]

The FIA uses cubic capacity divisions after category and group designation, but adds a class number to use in a descriptive manner such as "A-II-11". As there are no body style divisions in FIA the whole car designation is I suggest easier and simpler than say SCTA/BNI.

No competitior can 'loose' (sic) a ratified record from the last complete listing as classes are being added, not taken away. As happened with the turbine class weight break changes some records (such as Donald Campbell) come back on to the modern list.

There may be 'losers' from bids which did not break records under the old classifications, or by 1% improvement, as they were not ratified and the information would not have gone to the FIA HQ and therefore cannot be retrospectively applied.

Tricky D has done well with the flying start mile (and kilo) records, but who will sort out the vehicle cubic capacity standing start distance and time records that Pork Pie has mentioned? Or is that where the delay has arisen?

There is still some time until the 'Cook Shootout' (an event where multiple entries might be expected), but are any attempts by privateers now on hold because the target speeds are not yet defined?
 

    
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: Malcolm UK on March 02, 2017, 06:26:56 AM
Another part of the 'minefield' is that the same new class capacities are being introduced for the Diesel powered cars (blown and unblown), so the administrative workload is doubled. With such vehicles having never been up with the quickest overall, only lovers of oil burners (or exhaust smokers) are likely to have any secondary information.

There is some statement about " ... unintended consequences ..." which springs to mind.

A positive is that there are many turbine and electric classes which are divided by weight (in kilogrammes) that have no current records.

 
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on March 02, 2017, 07:48:15 AM
And then there are classes for rotary power (blown and unblown).  :evil:

Not forgetting additional classes for hydrogen fuel.  :-o  I need a smart-arse (smart-ass) emoji ...

 :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Title: Re: FIA records
Post by: TrickyDicky on March 20, 2017, 02:01:37 PM
For A-I-10, it also says: "...as defined until 31.12.2014 - classification under review."

...



My reading of the history books is that the Mercedes records set in 1939 at Dessau used a 3 litre engine (Class D as it was then, now Class A-I-8).  Therefore they cannot be current FIA records.

On the other hand, in October 1934 Rudolf Caracciola with the Mercedes Benz W25 set Class C records of 197.347 mph (kilometre) and 196.775 mph (mile). Rather unusually the engine size was just under 4 litres in a 3-5 litre class.  As far as I can tell these should be the current FIA A-I-9 class records.


.....

I checked the record lists I got....digital goes back for about 20 years....unfortunately I have no complete list from the time before the big changes in 1965....

the record from Herda (1965) and Hoffman & Markley (1992) was set with bigger engines...H & M used a 300 ci (means close to 5 liter)...when I remember right, Herda's engine was similar in the size...

so I have no information which record Herda broke.....did you have any information to this record holder....

My information about Bob Herda's FIA records in the 1960s is very sketchy, so what follows is subject to correction.

In my original post I was speculating on the A-I-12 (7-8 litre) records, which means records from the previous 5-8 litre class (Class B in the early 1960s, which became Class 10 at some time I cannot determine) are the candidates.

My "research" indicates that Bob Herda set FIA records on four occasions, three in Class B (October 1964, October 1965 and November 1967) and one in Class C (November 1965).  Probably, the Class B records used a 7+ litre engine.  There are references to 442 c.i., 446 and 448 c.i. but I cannot confirm the capacity of the engine that was used to set any particular FIA record.


I found some information on Bob Herda's Class B records in the 1960s.  This confirms 7+ litre engine.  See attachment.