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Misc Forums => LSR General Chat => Topic started by: Tackman on January 24, 2017, 06:09:22 PM

Title: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 24, 2017, 06:09:22 PM
I've begun the search for the right vehicle to make my LSR dream a reality and have read tons about the Trans Am and Camaro. It seems they are kind of the go to vehicle.
 I have always loved being different so when I ran across a decently priced AMC Marlin my eyes lit up and imagination went crazy. I love how the back is shaped and the front is similar to the Roadrunner pre wing and nose.
 A friend of mine who seems to be a little knowledgeable on all kinds of different topics told me the Drag Coefficient was .39 for the Marlin. If that is so, it would be higher that both the T/A and Camaro. Please talk me into it or out of it. No reply will hurt my feelings. I am asking because I'm willing to learn and at this point I don't even know enough to be dangerous. :-D
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: wheelrdealer on January 24, 2017, 06:43:54 PM
I would ask, what class/engine size are you planing on running.

In my CGALT and BCGALT class a Monza body seems to have an aero advantage. Would love to build one but I have a 1970 Camaro so I will try and make that barn door fast.

I would add, build what you enjoy, because you are going to spend a heck of a lot more time building it than you ever will driving it. Just saying.

BR
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 24, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I'm waiting for my rulebook and with limited knowledge I would say /CBGALT.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 24, 2017, 07:36:19 PM
Gosh - those were such cool looking cars.  I'd be tempted to keep it as stock on the outside as possible and go Production.  The AMC V-8 is an untapped source of HP potential, and Penske put that engine in the winner's circle in Trans Am, NASCAR and Formula 5000. 

It could be done cheaper in another class, but an AMC powered Marlin would be among the most unusual cars on the salt.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 24, 2017, 08:13:33 PM
Gosh - those were such cool looking cars.  I'd be tempted to keep it as stock on the outside as possible and go Production.  The AMC V-8 is an untapped source of HP potential, and Penske put that engine in the winner's circle in Trans Am, NASCAR and Formula 5000. 

It could be done cheaper in another class, but an AMC powered Marlin would be among the most unusual cars on the salt.
That's a great idea. I love unusual cars and that's exactly what is drawing me to this particular car. I'm still real foggy on the different classes and what each one actually looks like. I wish there was someone in the state of Georgia that would let me visit their shop.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 24, 2017, 08:44:36 PM
Keith Turk is in Enterprise, Alabamer.  Gimme a few hours and I'll think of more people in your neck of the nation.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 24, 2017, 08:48:20 PM
Keith Turk is in Enterprise, Alabamer.  Gimme a few hours and I'll think of more people in your neck of the nation.
That would be awesome. I have paving projects all over North Georgia.  :cheers:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: wheelrdealer on January 24, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Tackman:

Sent you a PM

BR
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Stainless1 on January 24, 2017, 10:33:33 PM
Tackman, welcome... I would suggest build a lakester for the small engine classes...  most of those are fairly soft  :roll: If you have one together for WoS you can join the G Lakester shootout scheduled this year.
 :cheers:
Whatever you build, have fun doing it.... as mentioned you don't spend a lot of time driving them
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Dynoroom on January 24, 2017, 10:54:54 PM
The questions that comes to my mind are...

Are you going to run on the salt or some mile track?

Do you want to set records or just enjoy the uniqueness?

The car you choose matters if the answers are salt & records..... at least to my way of seeing it.   :-o

Whatever you choose, remember to have fun.  8-)
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 24, 2017, 11:02:02 PM
The questions that comes to my mind are...

Are you going to run on the salt or some mile track?

Do you want to set records or just enjoy the uniqueness?

The car you choose matters if the answers are salt & records..... at least to my way of seeing it.   :-o

Whatever you choose, remember to have fun.  8-)
My only goal as of now is to run on the Salt, have fun and have a story to tell.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Dynoroom on January 25, 2017, 01:38:10 AM
The questions that comes to my mind are...

Are you going to run on the salt or some mile track?

Do you want to set records or just enjoy the uniqueness?

The car you choose matters if the answers are salt & records..... at least to my way of seeing it.   :-o

Whatever you choose, remember to have fun.  8-)
My only goal as of now is to run on the Salt, have fun and have a story to tell.

Then run what ever you like...

But past experience suggests that you'll be sorry if you're not competitive.

Classic Class blown altered records C = 224 mph B = 243 mph A = 239 mph. So build accordingly unless you want to spend all that $$$ just for fun
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 25, 2017, 02:57:05 AM
I like different so I'd go with the big AMC fish but then I have a turbo'd 401 dog-leg AMC in my tank.
  Sid.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Stainless1 on January 25, 2017, 09:34:34 AM
I like different so I'd go with the big AMC fish but then I have a turbo'd 401 dog-leg AMC in my tank.
  Sid.

I see an engine collaboration with Sid in your future...  :cheers:

 
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 25, 2017, 09:44:29 AM

That would be awesome. I have paving projects all over North Georgia.  :cheers:

Do us a favor - Pave us a 3 mile straight, flat stretch somewhere in Georgia specifically for land speed racing - ECTA's still looking for new digs, and I love peaches and pecans  . . .  :wink:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Rick Byrnes on January 25, 2017, 12:49:36 PM
OH JEEZZZZ
I had one of those back in the day.  Actually a nice car, and I agree it would surely be unique on the salt.  Just like the Merkur was.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: floydjer on January 25, 2017, 02:13:56 PM
And plenty of room for a V-16 aircraft engine. :cheers:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Bob Drury on January 25, 2017, 03:26:44 PM
  AMC ALL THE WAY!  Dick Maskin (DART) ran a very competitive NHRA Pro Stocker with a Rambler engine and now Indy Cylinder Head makes Hi-Zoot heads and I believe blocks for them.
  I first came to the Salt in 1995 and as a burnt out long time Drag Racer I discovered Heaven on Earth.  I walked the pits for three days and after looking at all the High Dollar vehicles (some famous, some not) I started round two by looking at all the obviously home built and oddball vehicles with even more oddball engines and it completely blew Me away.  The old hunched over gentleman whom was working on a overhead valve injected Model B four cylinder and when I asked where He got the Head and Injectors replied "I made em' ".  The blown KB hemi two cylinder that ran over 200 m.p.h., the chopped Stude with a 460 Ford sawed in half, the lakester running a snow mobile engine, it went on and on and on the flight home I said I am going to find and build a Studebaker and have FUN... expensive fun but what the Hell.
  Be different and screw the records.  Set Your personal record as a goal.  Help keep LSR racing weird and interesting.  AMC ALL THE WAY!
  To the neigh sayers, I ran 219 with a injected Olds motor in a 4300# Studebaker.  The Motor (and Myself) were designed in 1946 and if time on Earth and finances allow I plan on pushing that number up in a few Years.  When I first ran the car in 1998 (50th Speedweek) The car/engine combo developed its own fan club of mostly old timers who would visit My pits every year.  These were and are the kind of guys who walked up and would say things like "Jesus Christ Herb, its a fu*cking Early Olds!).
  Same guys, every Year and when after seven years I put in a BBC a few of them were in near tears while mentioning things like "tar and feathers" and "lynching".  I avoided either or both outcomes by swearing to them that as soon as I hit the 250 mark I would put the Olds back in it.
  Why did I start out with a early Old's?  I wanted to see if I could make one go 200 m.p.h. and it took a hell of a lot of work, research and trial and error modifications over seven years but it was a wonderful adventure  and allowed Me to meet and talk Olds engines with the likes of Nick Arias Jr. (May He R.I.P.), Don Ratican, Ed Iskenderian, Jack Engle,Tom Cirello and others  who worked on or with Early Olds (1949-1964) in their heyday.
  Anyone can go fast with a Hemi or BBC but if You are crazy enough, bold enough, and thick skinned enough, and at least temporarirly wealthy enough, You need to build a Rambler, MG Midget (oop's, already done...) or Hudson or whatever isn't another Camaro or Studebaker (did I just say that?).  Be a Manly Man. Being insane Helps.
                                                                                                     One Run Bob Drury
                                                                                                      #394 A/CFALT 53 Studebaker 238+ m.p.h. 496" BBC
                                                                                                              B/CFALT  "        "            219+ m.p.h. 435" Early Olds
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 25, 2017, 08:10:53 PM
LSR is a wonderful world Bob. :cheers:
  Sid.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Bob Drury on January 25, 2017, 08:47:39 PM
  That's cuz You and Me and Stainless and John Boy and SSS and Stan Back are in it and are Famous in our own mind's.............................
                                                                                                     One Run Bob, out................................................................
                                                                                                    :cheers: :cheers: :roll: :cheers: :cheers: :-P :-D
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Stainless1 on January 25, 2017, 11:18:02 PM
Hey One Run, if "Anyone can go fast with a Hemi or BBC" what happened to you going fast with your BBC  :roll:

200 MPH Rambler, with a Rambler motor.... that is a goal  :cheers:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 25, 2017, 11:46:20 PM
  That's cuz You and Me and Stainless and John Boy and SSS and Stan Back are in it and are Famous in our own mind's.............................
                                                                                                     One Run Bob, out................................................................
                                                                                                    :cheers: :cheers: :roll: :cheers: :cheers: :-P :-D
Yepsiree Mate, living legends in our own lunch times! :-D
  Sid.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on January 26, 2017, 08:22:20 AM
 :cheers: I'll drink to that :cheers:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: floydjer on January 26, 2017, 09:29:34 AM
Indeed Rambler in a Rambler would be way cool...And have the eye-bleach handy if you google "BBC"...........
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 26, 2017, 12:51:59 PM
The 401 is really a cool engine that got lost in demise of AMC. It's a strong small block with 4.165 X 3.680 bore & stroke with factory forged crank & rods that are 5.850 long & the dog leg heads have good breathing with a factory 2.02 intake valve. Imagine how popular this combo would have been if had a bow-tie or a blue oval on it.
It's a rare day when some gear head looks in my tank & actually knows what it is. They run through all the options they can think of then ask me if it's actually an American engine before they finally give up in disgust. :x "OH Yeah, forgot all about that one!" :oops:
  Sid. 
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 26, 2017, 08:12:58 PM
I like different so I'd go with the big AMC fish but then I have a turbo'd 401 dog-leg AMC in my tank.
  Sid.
Is there a build thread or video? I've only found a few videos of the 401. One of the videos had a Vortec supercharger.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 26, 2017, 08:30:33 PM

That would be awesome. I have paving projects all over North Georgia.  :cheers:

Do us a favor - Pave us a 3 mile straight, flat stretch somewhere in Georgia specifically for land speed racing - ECTA's still looking for new digs, and I love peaches and pecans  . . .  :wink:
I wish there was a place to race here in Georgia. I live 3 miles from Road Atlanta and 20 from the Atlanta Dragway...For some reason I don't think they would work real well. :-D
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: manta22 on January 26, 2017, 08:48:18 PM

That would be awesome. I have paving projects all over North Georgia.  :cheers:

Do us a favor - Pave us a 3 mile straight, flat stretch somewhere in Georgia specifically for land speed racing - ECTA's still looking for new digs, and I love peaches and pecans  . . .  :wink:
I wish there was a place to race here in Georgia. I live 3 miles from Road Atlanta and 20 from the Atlanta Dragway...For some reason I don't think they would work real well. :-D

Well, I'd like to try it!  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: John Burk on January 26, 2017, 09:47:45 PM
Wikipedia had some things on 401s .

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwip04S_ouHRAhWFOCYKHTHXCdMQFggbMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAMC_V8_engine&usg=AFQjCNHHZXDAs9q9WbbVjp78I2RV9nRqzQ
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Bob Drury on January 26, 2017, 10:12:31 PM
  Tackman, try theamcforum.com and check out the aluminum heads and blocks at Indy Cylinder Heads.
                                                                                    One Run, out........................................................
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 27, 2017, 08:51:43 PM
I like different so I'd go with the big AMC fish but then I have a turbo'd 401 dog-leg AMC in my tank.
  Sid.
Is there a build thread or video? I've only found a few videos of the 401. One of the videos had a Vortec supercharger.
I've never done a build diary on the tank or the streamliner for that matter, I hardly ever even take a picture of my junk! I built the tank eleven years ago & it's been parked since I started building the liner seven years ago.
I went to the AMC forum way back but experienced a bunch of wankers there that said I couldn't do what I had already done so I moved on from those Einstein's!
I used a turbo off a power stroke Ford on my 401, I just rebuilt it with an up graded compressor wheel & sent it down to Salt Lake to be balanced. The engine is stock other than a set of Hypereutectic pistons, a 260 Comp, ported heads matched to an Edelbrock Performer & the big 1979 Wagoneer exhaust manifolds. The turbo is on top of the trans & blows through an 850 DP Holley & there's a $60 Chinese HEI parked in the front of the thing. The trans is a short Dodge motorhome 727 that I rebuilt inside an AMC case due to the lack of room in the tank for a full length one.
The 401 is no different to any other engine in it's construction really but there are a couple of quirks. The oil pump is in the front cover & the gears kinda wear it out giving low oil pressure at idle but there's a cheap stainless plate fix for that so you don't need to buy a new cover. Some people do a transfer oil line in the valley to the rear but I think that is more of a fix for the low idle oil pressure thing that starves the last bearings on the supply line. I didn't do mine & haven't seen a problem.
My old pile made just over 650 at the wheels on a dyno here in Spudland at 4k feet & you don't want to know about the kitchen pot/carb hat for the blow through.
If you go looking for one, the 75-78 Wagoneer is the best place to look if you want to run iron heads but the 401 was an option not standard & 401 is actually cast in the side of the block by the freeze plugs so you can ID it. There is also a tag on the left valve cover to ID a 401 & that has a Z stamped on it but the hypo 343 also had a Z tag so check the block to be sure plus the 7th digit of the vin code will be Z.  All the 401's have forged crank & rods, only the late ones had the dog leg heads & 1/2" head bolts.
  Sid. 
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: krusty on January 28, 2017, 04:48:34 AM
     "I hardly ever even take a picture of my junk!" :-o   Thank goodness, Sid, a guy your age shouldn't be sexting!  :-D

     vic
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 28, 2017, 07:03:42 AM
I think we've just witnessed the use of a word with more than one meaning, some less well-known to those of us with a certain minimum degree of olditude. . . :roll: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: fordboy628 on January 28, 2017, 07:16:40 AM
Sid,

The machine shop I have access to is T&T Race Engines in Gurnee, IL.    They are primarily a drag-centric shop, but they do take in sprint car and road race projects as well.     Of course they speak fluent SBC, BBC, LS, BB Ford, SB Ford.    BUT, they do a significant number of "orphan" projects such as Oldsmobile, Pontiac, and AMC . . . . . .       Currently, there is an AMC 401+ size project wending its' way though their shop.   I haven't been paying attention to the exact size, + something on bore with a slight stroke increase, but I will find out.     The project has INDY alloy heads and not sure on the other specs.

They are planning to dyno it on their Superflow 902 engine dyno when completed,  I'll get you the dyno numbers along with the missing specs.

 :cheers:
Secretagentboy
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 28, 2017, 12:36:49 PM
I think we've just witnessed the use of a word with more than one meaning, some less well-known to those of us with a certain minimum degree of olditude. . . :roll: :cheers: :cheers:
Yep! There's junk & then there's junk & I was definitely referring to junk. Man I'm glad we got that straight. :-D
Mean time we have 6ft of snow & I worked on the liner (junk) until 3.30 am.... living the dream. :|
  Sid.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: maj on January 28, 2017, 04:56:24 PM
Sid i think my street 401 for my 70 Javelin (bit of a never ending project while i have salt bikes) has more build into it than your race motor
Have a Vortech SC for it , h beam , forged pistons, looking seriously at Aluminium heads over the cast of which i have several options , mainly as the cost of rebuilding the cast is not much cheaper than buying the aluminium .
went with the new front cover and x over oiling system
crane solid cam
EFI

Amc is going to cost a fair bit more than a Chev to build, parts are of limited options, and people who know from experiance the best way to build them are rarer than blue hats

Good luck with the build ,
Oh there are a few articles in old hot rod mags on building a 401   
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 28, 2017, 06:52:08 PM
Yeah that wouldn't be hard Maj. I'm not too interested in building naturally aspirated engines for myself, ya just fill them up with $$ trying to improve the volumetric efficiency & still lag behind a boosted engine. My turbo 401 owes me chump change, the liner is twin turbo'd, my truck is turbo diesel, my daily driver is blown & I have two girlfriends....sorry, I got side tracked.
Being way over square with good organs from the factory the 401 is an ideal candidate for boosting.
  Sid.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: RichFox on January 28, 2017, 07:47:53 PM
I wonder what happened to polyhead. The last guy who was going to build a abnormal Bonneville car?
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: maj on January 28, 2017, 07:52:33 PM
 :cheers: couldnt agree more Sid
The only things i own that are not blown is a Triumph dual sports bike ( and that was a close call) and another Javelin a 68 that will remain original
Very difficult to go back to NA , think i got the power surge bug as a kid on 2 strokes  :-D

Hope all this has fanned the fire Tackman
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: floydjer on January 31, 2017, 09:56:59 AM
Rich...last I heard..He was looking for an adapter to mount a prop....................... :cheers:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 31, 2017, 08:18:22 PM
Thanks for all the input on this thread. I had something very good happen today at work. The inspector on this project told me about a car that a friend of his son left at his house a year ago. He was told to give it away if someone wanted it. It is a 1986.5 Toyota Supra with the 24v Turbo that hasn't run in 2 years but is in overall good condition. I am picking it up on Friday and will post pictures then. I wish that Marlin would've worked out but doing this on a budget I couldn't pass up a FREE car that has this much potential.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Bob Drury on January 31, 2017, 10:27:11 PM
  Put the Drive Train in the Marlin, crush the Toyota.  Problem Solved= Project Marota.... :cheers:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Tackman on January 31, 2017, 10:29:34 PM
 :-D
  Put the Drive Train in the Marlin, crush the Toyota.  Problem Solved= Project Marota.... :cheers:
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: JimL on January 31, 2017, 11:35:34 PM
Sid....not relevant to the hobby, but...that oil pump story reminds me of the AMC police car program.  Long ago I had a friend who was employed at AMC, working on that project.  Interesting story, and by strange coincidence.... came back and bit some time in my career with a "popular foreign brand".

When they put together the AMC police cars, the performance and handling were quite good and the slightly more compact exterior (narrower) was found to be an advantage for certain situations.  When the field testing started, they eventually ran into oil pressure and oil temperature problems.  And so it was....some years after hearing the stories at a late dinner, I found myself involved with a similar police car project that ran into a similar problem.

We had put together a police package demo using our newly introduced V6 powered 4-door sedan.  Handling and performance was pretty decent and fuel and brake burn costs were a nice improvement over the (then) available products for patrol cars.  Brake burn, for city police cars, often costs almost as much as the gasoline bill (per month).

Within a few months we were getting engine knock complaints (always the number 2 piston scuffed).  We had zero problems in civilian use, and so I sent an engineer down to Arizona to "live with the cars" and figure out what was going on.

It was the same problem as the Ramblers (we learned).  The test cars were all given to "near retirement" older officers for the initial "long term use" period.  In actuality, they tended to spend a lot of time idling in the shade with occasional full throttle jumps to chase down a traffic violation.  The extreme long idling pushed oil temps too high and the last piston in the coolant flow pattern was the first to scuff when the officer woke up and did some police work.

My friend later said, "Yup....just about exactly what happened to us at Rambler."

My daddy always said, "There ain't nothing new, under the sun." :|

Hope you enjoyed the little story.  JimL
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on February 01, 2017, 10:15:55 AM
Customers can find ways to "abuse" products that engineering and marketing never imagined!  :-o :cry: :x
With apologies to our blue-bloods, panic stops at the doughnut shop don't help the brakes either!  :-D
Mail delivery and paper routes drastically alter the fuel/brake cost ratios, too! :-(
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: kiwi belly tank on February 01, 2017, 01:41:50 PM
I had a similar story from a guy in So Cal a bunch of years ago that said the BB Dodge engine'd cop cars had a lack of lube problem to the shaft rockers due to idle time too. Apparently a pushrod would smoke a hole through a rocker.
  Sid.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: Stan Back on February 01, 2017, 07:09:38 PM
I sure wish JimL was here more often -- always informed and interesting.

And us dumb shitts understand him.

His lengthy treatise about emissions and catalytic converters was eye-opening.
Title: Re: 1965 Marlin
Post by: salt27 on February 01, 2017, 11:26:29 PM
I sure wish JimL was here more often -- always informed and interesting.

And us dumb shitts understand him.

His lengthy treatise about emissions and catalytic converters was eye-opening.

I feel blessed to have him for a neighbor.

An incredible information resource and a nice guy.

  Don