Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: astek on December 22, 2016, 04:22:51 AM
-
I'm building a new bike aiming for the first 200+ record in the vintage class. I'm going to use an early 50's pre unit Triumph motor with a iron cylinder head "650 APS-VF".
The engine parts
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15271875_863010450468582_792819584668140546_o.jpg?oh=324aa9edb96f56b829c70892b821d5b2&oe=58E45C11)
Frame
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15492289_878835485552745_2701161907033417482_n.jpg?oh=a85c8dc0c69edec9d3988192d890c39a&oe=58DE4775)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15591309_880858508683776_8527404035466259101_o.jpg?oh=28328e397d990ea4002b3d799d6c1e3d&oe=58B141B7)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15585421_880859898683637_2953224047922037012_o.jpg?oh=7d1df998b787407c5b63dc6bdaf0c43f&oe=58DE5923)
Will post more pictures when I'm done with the frame.
-
This will be a thread to follow! 8-)
-
Very interesting already.
Bf262
-
Looking good, Alp!
O2B44 again!
Tom
-
Go for it!
VF = methanol + nitrous?
I assume you have a 1954-55 case set for the larger rods?
How much power do you think it will take?
-
With the right body work I can see you getting that extra 25MPH.
Good looking work so far.
Rouse
-
Thank you all.
Go for it!
VF = methanol + nitrous?
I assume you have a 1954-55 case set for the larger rods?
How much power do you think it will take?
Panic, I'm ruining nitro and yes big bearing timing side but it still needs to be modified to fit the beefy alloy rods.
I believe with a relatively low co (for a APS) I need 90-100hp to reach 201MPH
Do you guys have any co numbers for "APS" body motorcycles? Just to have an idea.
-
Alp,
I know that your build will be great to watch. I did run some numbers using 200 mph for the speed and 100 hp for the aero hp. I come up with a CdA (Cd x Area) of 1.84. If you take what you think your frontal area will be in square feet and divide that into 1.84 you will get what the Cd should be. An example would be if your frontal area was 4 ft square your required Cd would be .458 which is a number that could be attainable with a good fairing. Of course I am assuming that all of your HP is going to overcome aero drag which is not the real case as you have chain friction which can easily be 5-8%, rolling friction etc which can all easily use up 15-25% of your 100 HP. If the number was 20% then the Cd would need to be about .37 which I still think you could do. My real question is do you think you can make an iron head engine make 100 HP for 5 miles?? That is a lot of heat that has to be taken care of. Running methanol should help,
Rex
-
Alp,
I know that your build will be great to watch. I did run some numbers using 200 mph for the speed and 100 hp for the aero hp. I come up with a CdA (Cd x Area) of 1.84. If you take what you think your frontal area will be in square feet and divide that into 1.84 you will get what the Cd should be. An example would be if your frontal area was 4 ft square your required Cd would be .458 which is a number that could be attainable with a good fairing. Of course I am assuming that all of your HP is going to overcome aero drag which is not the real case as you have chain friction which can easily be 5-8%, rolling friction etc which can all easily use up 15-25% of your 100 HP. If the number was 20% then the Cd would need to be about .37 which I still think you could do. My real question is do you think you can make an iron head engine make 100 HP for 5 miles?? That is a lot of heat that has to be taken care of. Running methanol should help,
Rex
Great info! Thank you Rex.
The long chain is something I do not like and there is not much I can do about it. I've been working on the design of the APS fairing for a long time, the sitting ergonomics, side cut off, is something never done before, I think it will make a difference in aero.
-
. . . the sitting ergonomics, side cut off, is something never done before, I think it will make a difference in aero.
Do you have a sketch of this?
-
Maybe I misunderstood but I don't think 100 hp will get you anywhere close to 200 mph... this will be an interesting build to watch, looking great so far!
-
For good aero ideas -- look at Ralph Hudson's bike. 266 in the dirt with a 750 blown motor? That takes some good stuff. I know that he and his bike spent some time with Layne and Tom at the Darko Wind Tunnel -- and dang, 266 shows something pretty good. . . :cheers:
-
Alp,
In 2013 I went 143 mph with 45 hp. My spread sheet predicted I would need 52 hp to go 150 but I did it with 50 hp. It predicts that I will need 123 hp to go 200 mph with my current CdA. My spreadsheet is based on the principle that you need to cube your increase in hp to double your speed. It's pretty simple, really. If you want to increase your speed by 200/156 (your current record)=1.282, you will need the cube of this multiplier to attain 200 mph. So 1.28^3=2.1 times your current hp with your current CdA. Of course, with streamlining you should be able to cut your drag significantly. You be the judge.
Tom
-
In the basic HP required to go fast (BHP= Cd x Frontal area x (speed to the third power)/146600) Frontal area is in sq. feet and speed is in MPH. The relation ship between HP and CdA is equal, that is 50% more Hp is the same as 50% less CdA. I have always felt there are three types of guys at Bonneville, motor guys that just keep throwing HP at it, aero guys that go faster by better aero and then there are the "Really Fast Guys" they do both!!!
Rex
-
Alp,,, I ran the numbers and you will need either:
4 sq.-ft of frontal area with a Cd of .380 and 100 hp will get you 200 mph
or
3.8 sq-ft of frontal area with a Cd of .400 and 100 hp gets you to 200 mph...
You build really small tight bikes and I'll bet on you getting there..
Robert Smith
The Baron Race Team
-
In the basic HP required to go fast (BHP= Cd x Frontal area x (speed to the third power)/146600) Frontal area is in sq. feet and speed is in MPH. The relation ship between HP and CdA is equal, that is 50% more Hp is the same as 50% less CdA. I have always felt there are three types of guys at Bonneville, motor guys that just keep throwing HP at it, aero guys that go faster by better aero and then there are the "Really Fast Guys" they do both!!!
Rex
100% more Hp is the same as 50% less CdA. (Or 50% more Hp is the same as 33 1/3% less CdA).
-
Tom - have you measured the frontal area on your bike? For sure good aero is the most elegant way to get there.
-
and I'll bet on you getting there..
So do I !!
-
Yes "The Baron" my frontal area is 547.78 square inches (3.8 sq.-feet). I hope I will have less than .4 cd.
Are there any APS bikes with less than .3 cd?
-
If you can navigate this website, it has some pretty neat designs for bodies. It's Italian but can be translated to english.
http://lnx.recordmotorcycles.com/
-
Have you looked at Tom Mellor's bike?
I would guess that an old Triumph Trident wouldn't make much more than 100hp
and I think he went 200 this year
Bones
-
Tom's bike is pretty well done.
-
Here's what it looked like at BMST this year.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/biker_ev/Tom%20Mellor%20Triump%20BMST%202016_zpshxkutstc.jpg) (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/biker_ev/media/Tom%20Mellor%20Triump%20BMST%202016_zpshxkutstc.jpg.html)
-
Hi Again Alp,,,
I don't have any hard numbers on other APS bikes,,, as an educated guess ,,, maybe a few get down to Cd of .300 but I think most don't....
Cd of .400 is quite doable,,, I'll be glad give you advice on how to fine tune your aero package when you get to that point....
This is an area I know a little about...........
Best of Fortune to us all in the 2017 Season,,
Robert
-
In response to Frank's question, here is a pdf of my bike which seems to be around 4.3 sq ft. According to Rex's post, my CdA must be around 2.17 which indicates that my Cd is around .5, though it looks better than that.
Tom
-
. . . the sitting ergonomics, side cut off, is something never done before, I think it will make a difference in aero.
Do you have a sketch of this?
tortoise, this is the bike I have designed. The uncomfortable sitting position reduces the cut off area and there are no gaps between body parts, you pull your knees all the way up to your chest and line them up with your elbows, your feet are right under your butt with top off feet facing downwards and toes facing backwards (see lower rear cut off shape). The idea is when you crash you will eject and not get stuck in the bodywork.
Tom's bike is pretty well done.
Great bike!
"TheBaron" Thank you,
-
Can you breathe well enough in that position for the 2 or three minutes it's going to take? I know that I'm short of breath by the time I'm at the 5 - and my tuck isn't nearly that radical.
Like the car guys say about designing so there's room for you with the safety gear -- I'll suggest that you try wearing your gear and scrunching up and see if maybe a breathing exercise routine is in your future.
-
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/2017%20APS%20study%20Alp.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/2017%20APS%20study%20Alp.jpg.html)
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/Tom%20Mellor%20Triump%20BMST%202016_zpshxkutstc.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/Tom%20Mellor%20Triump%20BMST%202016_zpshxkutstc.jpg.html)
Interesting comparison. But I think you're going to have to hire one of those horse racing jockeys to fit in that space!
-
Can you breathe well enough in that position . . .
Scrolling at the top of his web page, there's a little photo of his 175 mph bike being ridden in a full tuck in a similar position.
-
Tom,,, your BSA is very well done if you are getting 143 mph from 45 HP.. I estimate your Cd to be less than .440...
The Suzuki Hayabusa is the best aero street bike around and its Cd is in the .56 range.....
My Morini has 6.25 sq ft of frontal area and a Cd of about .485 with just its road race fairing and large aero front fender...
It runs 123-124 mph at El Mirage from its little gasoline powered pushrod 350 motor
I'm working on a large tail package for next year to get the Cd down some more...
Robert
-
Tom you comparing my design to Tom's APS, pretty cool, but other than the tail section all is different and the tail is just common aerodynamics.
SSS that is a good point, it won't be very comfortable but the good news is that it is more comfortable than my A (open class) bike.
tortoise->eagle eyes!
-
"...Scrolling at the top of his web page, there's a little photo of his 175 mph bike being ridden in a full tuck in a similar position."
That doesn't discuss if he was short of breath. I mention it because it does happen - to me, and likely to others. A scrunched-up tuck, while riding for a couple of minutes hoping you're going at a record-breaking pace - can get you short of O2. :-)
-
Alp,
Your concept drawing is an excellent example of what to strive for. But I would suggest you measure your body, arms, legs, etc, and then make a simple drawing of yourself and superimpose your body on your concept. I don't think you'll fit! Check this out.
After building my prototype out of wood, I found that I couldn't fit in the bike and had to lengthen it. Your concept and frame as shown seem to be plenty long, but my question is can you fit within the height as shown in the concept? I'm only trying to get you to think ahead, as I'm sure you'll get there.
Tom
-
One possible challenge could be your current helmet Snell date. When I had to replace my helmet, near the end of my racing years, I found the newest helmets have tightened up around the bottom and are lower across the back of the neck. It made the new helmet much more difficult to see with, because it couldn't be pushed up far enough. Kind of watch out for that little "gotcha" depending on where your current helmet stands with the rule book.
You smaller, younger, more flexible guys are the right riders to do this job! Good luck and stay safe.
JimL
-
Looks like I might fit on your bike, even if you don't!
(http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g465/koncretekid/Alps%20bike%20with%20rider.jpg) (http://s1103.photobucket.com/user/koncretekid/media/Alps%20bike%20with%20rider.jpg.html)
-
Reminds me of the "Norton Kneeler" race bike,,,,, it was very fast in its day......
Robert
-
We are have experienced the same problem in the Lakester class---in reverse---some of us are having problems pulling it down on our heads far enough
-
Alp,
Your concept drawing is an excellent example of what to strive for. But I would suggest you measure your body, arms, legs, etc, and then make a simple drawing of yourself and superimpose your body on your concept. I don't think you'll fit! Check this out.
After building my prototype out of wood, I found that I couldn't fit in the bike and had to lengthen it. Your concept and frame as shown seem to be plenty long, but my question is can you fit within the height as shown in the concept? I'm only trying to get you to think ahead, as I'm sure you'll get there.
Tom
Thank you Tom, you have lots of experience with the APS class... The sitting position is not quite right, the forearms are visible in your sketch.
One possible challenge could be your current helmet Snell date. When I had to replace my helmet, near the end of my racing years, I found the newest helmets have tightened up around the bottom and are lower across the back of the neck. It made the new helmet much more difficult to see with, because it couldn't be pushed up far enough. Kind of watch out for that little "gotcha" depending on where your current helmet stands with the rule book.
You smaller, younger, more flexible guys are the right riders to do this job! Good luck and stay safe.
JimL
Thank you JimL
-
For what its worth; my bike in this wind tunnel footage had a .34 C of D. This footage shows the configuration; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sun89HVL5Jk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sun89HVL5Jk) Top speed on 44 sea level HP was 155mph. The front fairing is not tall enough here so we upped its height by 1.5 inches as you see with the foam core mock-up in the footage. I was too obsessed with frontal area.
The newer version with the tail closed off and the small aluminum front wheel which then allowed additional chin/bodywork has a C of D coming in around .235. There is an image at this blogpost; http://kolblsr.blogspot.com (http://kolblsr.blogspot.com) Not sure of the top speed yet due to the salt condition issue but based on our data it should go 165mph on 46HP.
I don't have access to my pictures at the moment so i hope those links work. I forget what my frontal area is but i can get it to you when i return in a couple weeks. Yes it could be better if i closed in around my legs and arms but I'm paranoid about getting tangled up in the bike in a wreck. Paranoid i know.
-
For what its worth; my bike in this wind tunnel footage had a .34 C of D. This footage shows the configuration; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sun89HVL5Jk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sun89HVL5Jk) Top speed on 44 sea level HP was 155mph. The front fairing is not tall enough here so we upped its height by 1.5 inches as you see with the foam core mock-up in the footage. I was too obsessed with frontal area.
The newer version with the tail closed off and the small aluminum front wheel which then allowed additional chin/bodywork has a C of D coming in around .235. There is an image at this blogpost; http://kolblsr.blogspot.com (http://kolblsr.blogspot.com) Not sure of the top speed yet due to the salt condition issue but based on our data it should go 165mph on 46HP.
I don't have access to my pictures at the moment so i hope those links work. I forget what my frontal area is but i can get it to you when i return in a couple weeks. Yes it could be better if i closed in around my legs and arms but I'm paranoid about getting tangled up in the bike in a wreck. Paranoid i know.
Thank you Baron, your bike looks very well build and nice looking.
Have you achieved the Coefficient of Drag in around .235 with this version of your bike?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KvncrqCdDAY/Vo2wDWlE8aI/AAAAAAAAA7E/FA4R9s260eQ/s1600/team%2B15%2Bhero%2Bsmall.jpg)
-
"The uncomfortable sitting position reduces the cut off area and there are no gaps between body parts, you pull your knees all the way up to your chest and line them up with your elbows, your feet are right under your butt with top off feet facing downwards and toes facing backwards "
I remember when I could do that. I think it was about 1978. :roll:
-
Lots of stretching goes a long way for the bike comfort, the rest is mental!
Yes, .235 in the the photo you referenced sir.
-
Very impressive!
-
Frame not done yet.
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15732037_885532661549694_4969625431637066194_o.jpg?oh=88af46a2639170af78b2e17370389332&oe=58F330CA)
-
May I ask the material specs for the frame? I like the adjustment you've built into the rear end. :cheers:
-
May I ask the material specs for the frame? I like the adjustment you've built into the rear end. :cheers:
Thank you Frank, I'm using 1020 tubing 1"od - .120" wall
-
Frame not done yet.
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15732037_885532661549694_4969625431637066194_o.jpg?oh=88af46a2639170af78b2e17370389332&oe=58F330CA)
Alp, I really like that weight distribution but how are you planning to keep all that chain under control?
Mind posting a pic from the top? I'm curious to see how narrow your knees will be.
-
Alp, I really like that weight distribution but how are you planning to keep all that chain under control?
Mind posting a pic from the top? I'm curious to see how narrow your knees will be.
I haven't built the seat pan yet, but it will be close to 20" wide. I will mount something below and top of the chain.
Frame detail:
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15731899_886257204810573_2201457361715457756_o.jpg?oh=eb684786b2731e8b5ccfa04d284ca3ba&oe=58D8602A)
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15626095_886257168143910_2172671605379310006_o.jpg?oh=7d9fe09ce366518b86f4d6e0b6f16df4&oe=58F3D6B4)
-
Great build and I'm subscribed 100%. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Good Skate Board wheels with the good bearings work!. :lol:
-
Hard to beat a good mountain-bike seat for a tight tuck.....those bike seats are shaped to let the legs position easily. I used one on an APS bike in 2009 and it was perfect.
I ran sched40 PVC for a lower chain guide in the initial "feed out" area behind the countershaft. Cut in half lengthwise, and you can heat and reshape the tubing by fanning it with a butane torch until it becomes pliable. Work the shape with heavy gloves and then drop it in water to freeze the shape. You want it flat in the middle and BOTH ends should be ramped away from the chain run to "smooth" the whip on the slack run. I greased mine and it worked fine for all the years I ran that bike. I had good luck with about 1/2-3/4" clearance over about 10" of run (as best I remember). Anyway....It starts the chain running "calm" on its way to the rear sprocket.
On the top run, coming off the rear sprocket, I made a guide that will catch a broken or stretched chain and keep it feeding forward. That gives you a chance of keeping the chain from partial wrapping the rear sprocket and piling up at the rear wheel. Chains can break when they get hot enough to weld the pins into an arc, and then they dont go where you want. Especially when you shift or lift.
JimL
-
Alp,
With such a long chain run,,, I'd use a "Ghost Sprocket" to keep things calm,,,,,
Look them up, It just might be the magic bullet you need....
Robert
-
Be careful about trying to control the chain whip at any distance from either sprocket. As the chain runs through it's various ranges of speed, the peak amplitude of harmonics in the lash will move from one area of the length....to another. Trying to catch that particular "falling knife" could be kind of like....trying to catch a falling knife! (humor... :roll:)
I have messed with rollers, idler sprockets, etc. in various applications. They can work good if you are willing to operate at a pretty much fixed speed.
That is why they completely disappeared in every manufacturers cam chain systems, many years ago (and were replaced by sliders). I even had to ditch the idler sprocket and go to a shortened cam-chain type slide in my "replica 1915 Smith Motor Wheel" project...and that thing has very short runs (the entire engine, clutch, gear reduction, freewheel, sprocket sets....all fits inside a 20" bicycle rim).
When we went to timing belts, we quickly learned that the tension and guide idlers had to be kept really close to load or direction change points. Trying to work in the middle of a run broke all kinds of interesting stuff.
Simpler is better. Just give the slack run a clean, smoothed exit and replace chains when in doubt. You will not need more than about 10" of slider to let that chain get settled into the idea of heading for the rear wheel.
JimL
-
Jim, I was thinking of a plastic pipe or a slider as well. Do you have a picture of your set up?
Robert, that ghost sprocket is interesting!
-
I'm hooked,
Thank you all for the insights and journey.
Maybe see some of you in 2017...
Patrick
-
This a thread that I will be watching! I like your frame layout. What are you using for a tubing bender? Those are nice clean bends, especially the 180 bend at the rear.
-
This is how we dealt with a long chain run on Brian's XR500 rig. We built a metal box to contain the chain and support nylon guides that are contoured to help control chain whip, hopefully without adding too much drag. It's run every year (that racing has been viable) since '09 with no chain related issues cropping up. The metal screen allows visually checking the chain without taking anything apart and also provides some extra cooling air flow, in case that's needed. The chain doesn't even touch the nylon guides when adjusted cold, but the theory is that when it heats up and stretches the guides keep it from whipping too violently and keep the stresses down.
(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Whizzbang02/XR500%20salt%20racer/HPIM3497.jpg) (http://s101.photobucket.com/user/Whizzbang02/media/XR500%20salt%20racer/HPIM3497.jpg.html)
It's based on a similar design that we used on my TR25W in '08.
(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m68/Whizzbang02/bonneville%2009/100_4272.jpg) (http://s101.photobucket.com/user/Whizzbang02/media/bonneville%2009/100_4272.jpg.html)
Of course, you're aiming for twice the speed we designed for, and it looks like you have almost twice the chain run, so some modifications may be in order to account for that.
-
Sorry, but I don't have pics anymore since a big computer crash. I don't have the bike anymore, either. I know that it is best to have any chain contact on a slider at a FLAT surface. If you use a tube shape, the side of the chain will try to climb on contact and it starts whipping sideways. That would be bad.
Try messing about with some Schedule 40 PVC pipe and a butane torch. The trick is to fan back and forth quickly, for a long time, and not close enough to turn the PVC brown. Once it reaches softening point, it stays workable for a while. The hardness of PVC is the real key, here, because the chain doesn't easily cut grooves into it. The softer stuff like nylon and Teflon are slippery, but they don't like being pounded on.
-
May I suggest that a heat gun might be a safer and more predictable way to work that plastic? :?
-
I'm hooked,
Thank you all for the insights and journey.
Maybe see some of you in 2017...
Patrick
Look forward to seeing you Patrick, thank you.
This is how we dealt with a long chain run on Brian's XR500 rig. We built a metal box to contain the chain and support nylon guides that are contoured to help control chain whip, hopefully without adding too much drag. It's run every year (that racing has been viable) since '09 with no chain related issues cropping up. The metal screen allows visually checking the chain without taking anything apart and also provides some extra cooling air flow, in case that's needed. The chain doesn't even touch the nylon guides when adjusted cold, but the theory is that when it heats up and stretches the guides keep it from whipping too violently and keep the stresses down.
thanks WhizzbangK.C.
This a thread that I will be watching! I like your frame layout. What are you using for a tubing bender? Those are nice clean bends, especially the 180 bend at the rear.
Sporty Dan , I use a manual rotary draw type bender for bends like the 180 in the back and I do freehand bends.
Thanks JimL, Seldom Seen Slim.May I suggest that a heat gun might be a safer and more predictable way to work that plastic? :?
Sorry, but I don't have pics anymore since a big computer crash. I don't have the bike anymore, either. I know that it is best to have any chain contact on a slider at a FLAT surface. If you use a tube shape, the side of the chain will try to climb on contact and it starts whipping sideways. That would be bad.
Try messing about with some Schedule 40 PVC pipe and a butane torch. The trick is to fan back and forth quickly, for a long time, and not close enough to turn the PVC brown. Once it reaches softening point, it stays workable for a while. The hardness of PVC is the real key, here, because the chain doesn't easily cut grooves into it. The softer stuff like nylon and Teflon are slippery, but they don't like being pounded on.
-
Some folks use an idler shaft with two sprockets and run two shorter loops of chain. The rear sprockets ore offset to the outside to give clearance to run a wider rear tire than they could, otherwise.
-
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2631.msg31226.html#msg31226
-
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2631.msg31226.html#msg31226
Thanks Woody, there is some good info in that link.
Also when looking at it don't forget to get side tracked into Sumners website.
Great stuff.
Don
-
Some years ago :cry:, when I was trying to determine if I needed to run an idler socket or not I got some good info from various people and if you look down the following page you can find what they had to say...
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-47.html
Sumner
-
The metals and designs of those old British trannies probably won't withstand the power needed to go 200 mph and especially the impact loads of long drive chain oscillations. They were sort of marginal when new. Really, everything downstream of the engine sprocket can be modern like harley based stuff from Baker Drivetrain, S and S, or Andrews. Harleys beat carp out of their drive trains so anything that works on them will be spiffy on a Triumph.
-
wobblywalrus a Harley transmission would be nice and it is way stronger, but I believe the p/u gearbox will do the job.
Making progress!
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16112827_905936372842656_7794274440295137920_o.jpg?oh=6d1299f3f8f87f835c16d98ba3d09436&oe=5919E4D9)
-
Looking good. Nice work man. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
I don't know what those porcupine thingies are: some kind of rivnut or attachment hardware? Could someone educate me?
TIA
-
Those are miniature nitrous bottles, arrayed in a way that'll provide maximum spray toward the driver compartment for best cooling effect on hot race days.
Do I win? Did I get it right? Did I?
-
Looks like the Target 550 guys finally found a market! :-D
http://clecofasteners.info/
-
Frank06:
Clecos are temporary fasteners that are used to clamp sheet metal together and keep the holes aligned-- super useful little things. No one can call himself a fabricator if he doesn't have a few Clecos and a bag of pop rivets. :-D
Regards, Neil
-
Clecos - thanks!
SSS - you win and I have a non-functional pen I can send you, lol. (inside joke!)
-
Cleko --- originally made by the Cleveland Pneumatic Tool Company. The fabricators friend.
Joe
-
I haven't really had any need for anything like this yet but they may be useful on my current project. I can think of a few times in the past where I would have liked to have some on hand though. :cheers:
-
Working on the body panels:
-
What alloy and thickness are you using for your body panels?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
-
What alloy and thickness are you using for your body panels?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
manta22, .063" 3003
-
Nice work, I'm following with great interest. :cheers:
What planishing methods/tooling are you using?
Ed
-
Nice work, I'm following with great interest. :cheers:
What planishing methods/tooling are you using?
Ed
Thanks Ed, I do the rough shaping on the stump with the wood mallet, I use the slapper to make it smoother and then the wheeling machine. In some areas I use the shrinker.
-
Based on the top speed, you're going to need a really tall 1st gear to have any RPM recovery. I'm not sure of how different the pre-unit vs. unit transmission gears are, but to get the 3-4 shift loss below 16% you'll need the close-ratio 24/22 high gear set.
-
Excuse my ignorance, but which event(s) are you planning to run at?
thanks,
Frank
-
Based on the top speed, you're going to need a really tall 1st gear to have any RPM recovery. I'm not sure of how different the pre-unit vs. unit transmission gears are, but to get the 3-4 shift loss below 16% you'll need the close-ratio 24/22 high gear set.
Good point panic,, the std box ratio gap between 3 to 4 is more than the cr, 3rd gear reduction is 1.19:1 for the std.
The close ratio has less reduction and is only 1.09:1 for the 3rd gear but it starts with first gear 1.69:1 which will be tough to take off whereasthe std box first gear has a 2.44:1 reduction.
The wide ratio first is 2.91:1 but that gap between 3 and 4 is huge. wr 3rd is 1.425:1
The 5 speed later unit has a larger gap between 4th and 5th than the close ratio 4 speed (unit and pre unit 4 speeds have the same ratios)
I have both gearboxes.
Excuse my ignorance, but which event(s) are you planning to run at?
thanks,
Frank
The plan is to run SCTA, AMA and FIM
-
Hi,
Panic: Based on the top speed, you're going to need a really tall 1st gear to have any RPM recovery
Wouldn't the ratios be more dependant on where the max torque's revs are?
Patrick
-
Hi astek
Your build is looking REAL NICE
Have you looked at TT Industries in New Zealand for a gearbox?
I don't know if they do a Triumph gearbox, but they do very nice Norton type gearboxes. 4-5 and 6 speed.
A mate has a 5 speed behind a BMW turned sideways I will know how it works at the end of the month
Bones
-
Hi astek
Your build is looking REAL NICE
Have you looked at TT Industries in New Zealand for a gearbox?
I don't know if they do a Triumph gearbox, but they do very nice Norton type gearboxes. 4-5 and 6 speed.
A mate has a 5 speed behind a BMW turned sideways I will know how it works at the end of the month
Bones
Thanks Bones, I will be using the p/u Triumph gb on this project (no time to change the frame members at this point) but I am looking for alternatives for my other builds. Please let us know how you like the TT Ind. box.
-
Looking good Alp! Can't wait to see this one.
-
Looking good Alp! Can't wait to see this one.
Thanks makr, it would be great if we can have a photo shoot with the "Alpha" and the "T200" together on the salt.
.
.
Working full speed on the body, here is the chin area, I had to make each side out of three pieces.
-
Making progress
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16825755_950337248402568_3401482308006450794_o.jpg?oh=6375ab3909d173a8bb3e84f85eb427bd&oe=5938577A)
-
My goodness, that is some great work....question, are you gas welding the aluminum? In the 60's I was able to do work with a master metal shaper, Jack Sutton, and Englishman who came from the aircraft industry and was a amazing guy who used to make his car and aircraft panels with a large cast iron wheel. He would make his welding rod by making thin strips from the panel he was making and gas welded/brazed the material by dipping the heated section of the strip in borax and then just melted it together, then ran it through the wheel to make the panels and the "weld" work together. I did try it a couple of times, but it aint easy gas welding aluminum! :-D
Congrats on your work, very nice!
Matt Guzzetta
-
My goodness, that is some great work....question, are you gas welding the aluminum? In the 60's I was able to do work with a master metal shaper, Jack Sutton, and Englishman who came from the aircraft industry and was a amazing guy who used to make his car and aircraft panels with a large cast iron wheel. He would make his welding rod by making thin strips from the panel he was making and gas welded/brazed the material by dipping the heated section of the strip in borax and then just melted it together, then ran it through the wheel to make the panels and the "weld" work together. I did try it a couple of times, but it aint easy gas welding aluminum! :-D
Congrats on your work, very nice!
Matt Guzzetta
Thanks Matt,
Yes I'm gas welding aluminum panels, sometimes I tig weld but I prefer gas welding.
-
Alp, what about engine cooling?
-
X-ray vision??? :-D
-
Alp, what about engine cooling?
The bike will run in the fuel class. Nitro, the fuel itself will keep it at a certain temperature.
X-ray vision??? :-D
Just got my polycarbonate sheet, no x-ray vision here! :)
-
The bike will run in the fuel class. Nitro, the fuel itself will keep it at a certain temperature.
[/quote]
Yes, Methanol will cool it, but, what percentage Nitromethane are you planning to run :?
-
Yes, Methanol will cool it, but, what percentage Nitromethane are you planning to run :?
He didn't say anything about running alky in it... :-D
:cheers:
-
Yes, Methanol will cool it, but, what percentage Nitromethane are you planning to run :?
My engines are running on 96-98%, there are a few things I have to figure out with the APS engine. It is not going to be the same configuration (reverse head, different exhaust ports/pipe design and some other stuff).
-
Astek said: "...My engines are running on 96-98%...".
Whew. Start out with just a little and save the heavy load for after you get the tuneup right. :-D
-
More pictures
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17097943_961587250610901_6124773738473724408_o.jpg?oh=b04a7714ddf438f18371f1f8a2823db7&oe=596878FC)
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17155887_961589030610723_4038264110307881306_n.jpg?oh=c811fd970ec5578ee0ce2fdd807d8173&oe=59728C18)
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17103750_961590463943913_4793417892585906885_n.jpg?oh=bb5648bc5f35f28897d18971b67ad11c&oe=592E85C9)
-
Impressive, Alp. And I thought I was a "Jack of all trades", but here is a skill I've not even begun to attain.
I may have to bump my motor up to a true 650 and find another 50 hp to stay in this ballgame!
Tom
-
Thanks Tom,
almost done with the rear pannels
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17310187_970261979743428_8487357331186753378_o.jpg?oh=5762e9ee10efa980d83ad3e38914f87b&oe=5929DFAD)
-
Looking seriously good! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
-
Looking seriously good! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
Thanks Pete.
X-ray vision??? :-D
Tom check this out,
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17388779_977036402399319_2588405264499308217_o.jpg?oh=4c28eb3fb8a02c9be4ba714b4cb7d309&oe=5957988C)
-
Alp, I just sent you 2 PMs.
-
Nice bird, Astek, :-o
but isn't the front 180 degree fender supposed to be separate from the main fairing?
Patrick
-
Nice bird, Astek, :-o
but isn't the front 180 degree fender supposed to be separate from the main fairing?
Patrick
Thanks thefrenchowl,
My fender is separate from the main fairing, but my design is different. Everybody puts their fender under or inside the main fairing, mine is on top of the main fairing, it is also less than 90 degree.
-
Will you be running SCTA or BMST?
Beautiful body. :cheers:
Don
-
Will you be running SCTA or BMST?
Beautiful body. :cheers:
Don
Thanks Don,
I'm going to run it first at the SCTA and later the plan is to run it FIM and AMA.
-
I see, Astek,
The "beak" rotates with the forks, clever...
Reminds me of the "becco d'uccello" on 50's road racing Guzzi's fairings!!!
I'm still a bit worried about the rule that says that the perimeter of the front fender can't be more than 1"75 away from the tyre thread (rule 7.G.11, APS)
Patrick
-
Here's a different approach with the arms and legs visible (and hopefully not much else) . . .
-
I can see Freud riding this.
-
I believe the rule applies to the leading edge of the fender.............
-
frontal
(https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17436324_979704555465837_6585296747131619799_o.jpg?oh=44bc392f7020ad4edfcdc84387c923c4&oe=595E67E8)
-
"Porthole" vision is tunnel vision,, Aero will not be affected with a full screen following the line of the aluminium bodywork that you have,, the most important thing with a full screen is that you will have hundred percent orientation as to where you are "on course" :-)
-
You've not seen Alp ride his bike before. :wink:
-
This topic is headed "200MPH" Vintage Class Bike Build,, to make such a statement shows that the boyz have aspirations of achieving their stated speed, I wish 'em luck, but I also want to see them achieve it "Safely",,
No, I have not seen Alp ride his bike at that speed, actually how fast has he done :?
-
This topic is headed "200MPH" Vintage Class Bike Build,, to make such a statement shows that the boyz have aspirations of achieving their stated speed, I wish 'em luck, but I also want to see them achieve it "Safely",,
No, I have not seen Alp ride his bike at that speed, actually how fast has he done :?
Take a peek...
http://www.alpracingdesign.com/vintage-triumph-pre-unit-engine-records (http://www.alpracingdesign.com/vintage-triumph-pre-unit-engine-records)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/48ef06_5d7f605e26bb4451acf8030507ed7a8e.jpg/v1/fill/w_629,h_419,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/48ef06_5d7f605e26bb4451acf8030507ed7a8e.webp)
-
X-ray vision??? :-D
Tom check this out,
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17388779_977036402399319_2588405264499308217_o.jpg?oh=4c28eb3fb8a02c9be4ba714b4cb7d309&oe=5957988C)
[/quote]
I have (had) a full windshield, although I do look thru my triples, and have still taken out two side markers. But of course, your eyes are 25 years younger than mine :-o
Tom
-
175.625mph, is impressive on a 650 Triumph, but be assured, 200mph is a loooooong way from 175, especially when it comes to handling and aerodynamics :roll:,,
I have experienced various wind conditions at 175mph, no problem at all, but the same conditions at 200 certinally got my attention real quick :-D,,
As this bike gets faster, I guarantee we will see the windscreen get larger "real quick" :wink:, and I hope that happens before we see that beautiful alley work all messed up,,
Nuff said, I'm outta here :-)
-
A race bike to me is never done, it's an ongoing process. Stay`tee is correct I can make the window larger or add a second one on the other side if I need to. The frame, the body, the engine is going to be all new (designed/built) so I will figure out many things as I go but I hope I will be the first to get into the 200mph club with a pre 56 vintage class motorcycle.
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17309912_982119011891058_3213924833284941371_o.jpg?oh=310ba717b5bd3190a7e51359f579a32d&oe=595A0279)
-
I hope I will be the first to get into the 200mph club with a pre 56 vintage class motorcycle.
I believe Max has already done that with his Vincent streamliner.
-
I hope I will be the first to get into the 200mph club with a pre 56 vintage class motorcycle.
I believe Max has already done that with his Vincent streamliner.
I looked in the books (SCTA/AMA), couldn't find any record over 200mph in any vintage motorcycle class, I could be wrong.
-
Lambky has the highest vintage record,
3000cc SCS-VBF, at 191.303 in Sept 2010
Patrick
-
What year was the vintage class started? There are some vintage bikes that have records over 200, just not in vintage class.
-
Dave Matson probably has the fastest Vintage class qualified motorcycle... his records were set in 1988, before vintage class, 210 open and 225 faired.... not bad for an old Vincent. I am sure when a modern motorcycle beats his records, they will be moved to vintage class by the SCTA.
-
Dave Matson probably has the fastest Vintage class qualified motorcycle... his records were set in 1988, before vintage class, 210 open and 225 faired.... not bad for an old Vincent. I am sure when a modern motorcycle beats his records, they will be moved to vintage class by the SCTA.
Dave Matson ran while Vintage class was present, but he ended up running in the unlimited classes, he also ran in the vintage class.
Vintage class has its own rules. I'm running my P class Triumph engine as well, it looks almost the same as my V engine but it is totally different. I cannot run certain aftermarket parts and electronics other than for documentation purposes.
The picture shows Dave Matson running in the same "APS-VF" vintage class that I will run, except my engine displacement is 650cc.
-
Hi Alp
My mate with the TT Industries gearbox is pleased with it.
He only did 2 runs at Gairdner but has had it on the dyno a couple of times.
The BMW is making 100hp
So far so good
What Bonneville meetings will you be at this year?
I will have my naked Bussa at BMST and WoS--- see you in impound :-)
Bones
-
Hi Alp
My mate with the TT Industries gearbox is pleased with it.
He only did 2 runs at Gairdner but has had it on the dyno a couple of times.
The BMW is making 100hp
So far so good
What Bonneville meetings will you be at this year?
I will have my naked Bussa at BMST and WoS--- see you in impound :-)
Bones
Bones,
That sounds good, we will be at Speedweek first but planning to be at the BMST too. Looking forward to seeing you in impound :)
-
Making the oil and fuel tanks,
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17492515_997430930359866_8083248257246802850_o.jpg?oh=5b1c7d6f7c5822a50f5b3bd30b1fedcf&oe=59537081)
-
Making the primary cover and chain guards/rails.
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17966915_1008291652607127_4555343845326086037_o.jpg?oh=77903b49b29cddb8d02a1a88b5a54c86&oe=599B7102)
-
Looks great Alp.
So what all had to be done to turn the cylinder/ head around like that?
-
Looks great Alp.
So what all had to be done to turn the cylinder/ head around like that?
Thank you sofadriver,
Reversing the head is a common mod for Triumphs (which I'm not a fan of for stock bikes), the 8 bolt head pattern is not directional, you just need to change the camshafts.
I did this to improve the exhaust port/pipe geometry. Redesigning the ironhead took me weeks.
-
The cube root relationship is a bit conservative, since the small corrections for rolling resistance and weight don't scale as rapidly.
-
Thanks Panic,
The body is at the paint shop, doing the lettering and sponsors names.
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18359100_1030688547034104_1008517182380195912_o.jpg?oh=6d793aa95b5764be9eb2460e9958f6ac&oe=59BC27EA)
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18402339_1032418886861070_5021113798397385148_o.jpg?oh=367062b4d80cb3741114cd63133a6ed4&oe=59B630C2)
-
Frame pictures after nickel plating:
(http://i68.tinypic.com/11so2ol.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2wexgts.jpg)
-
I love bright nickel!
John
-
Engine/gearbox ready to slide into the frame.
-
Almost too pretty to run. But then again, so is the rest of the bike. Nice nice work.
-
Thanks Vinsky!
-
Beautiful work, Alp! Maybe when I'm FULLY RETIRED, I'll paint and polish my relic!
I don't know my Triumphs that well - - is this the Vintage class motor? And what is the mechanism on the right side of the timing case?
Tom
-
That looks like a mechanical fuel pump, like a Top Fueler would have. With an iron head and barrel, I would guess this is a Vintage class entry.
-
Justin just said it, it is the mechanical fuel pump with the main valve and high speed cut off valve. The engine is a Vintage class pre unit triumph with a iron cylinder head.
I would prefer my own design gravity feed set up which performed better than the pump setup but this bike's fuel tank is under the seat pan.
-
Alloy body on the frame.
-
I LOVE blue bikes!!!
Check general rule 7.B.10, Wheels:
Faired or disc front wheels only allowed in side car and streamliner classes.
All other classes you have to see daylight through the wheel.
You might argue that your discs don't rotate?
How do you change gears and activate rear brake?
Patrick
-
That is an amazingly beautiful bike. I assume it is a "kneeler" where your legs are kneeling all inside the body on those pads. But Patrick is right with both SCTA and AMA for APS bikes the rule is "A minimum of 180 continuous degrees shall be showing of the front wheel. It shall not be blocked by streamlining. There must be no streamlining forward of the leading edge of the front tire". I don't have an SCTA rule book but the AMA rules says "The front wheel shall not have wheel discs. Except for streamliners, where bodywork encloses the wheel, the front wheel must have cross-ventilation at a minimum of 25% of total wheel surface." Better check the rules unless you have discovered some loophole around that.
Don
-
Thank you, that front wheel was for the show,, the race wheel doesn't have covers.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/mvjeis.jpg)
-
Beautiful bike and great concept :cheers:
-
Been seeing a lot of the bike on FB.
Yes, my friends convinced me.
Great bike. Very cool. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
-
Did you run at SpeedWeek ?, how did it preform ?
-
Speedweek was a test & tune event for our new bike. The new frame geometry/body design performed well, reached 170mph, got into high speed wobbles few times (due to ruts and soft spots) fortunately saved and proved stable. Fastest average speed within the measured mile was around 150+ The best news is the new partial streamline bike design passed safety and class compliance inspection. We will need better salt/conditions to go faster..
-
Alp, met you and Jameika (hope I spelled that right) in the 6 parking lot during engine rebuild. Very well made bike for those that did not get to see it.
Looking forward to your continued success :cheers:
-
Alp, met you and Jameika (hope I spelled that right) in the 6 parking lot during engine rebuild. Very well made bike for those that did not get to see it.
Looking forward to your continued success :cheers:
I remember, you were with the Target 550 team. Thank you.
-
Alp, met you and Jameika (hope I spelled that right) in the 6 parking lot during engine rebuild. Very well made bike for those that did not get to see it.
Looking forward to your continued success :cheers:
I remember, you were with the Target 550 team. Thank you.
Well, there was a lot of folks talking to you and following your rebuild......
Stainless is from the Bockscar Team, tall fellow, he can look in your eyes without looking up and mostly, when in the Motel 6 parking lot, he is holding a bottle of beer....there was also Doc Freud (Target 550)....an older, very interesting chap who can tell you the greatest story of Don Vesco and bike racer from the 70's, Bret (Kepner) the TV man, he done some picture with his phone.....it was me (Bockscar and Target 550), when Bret was at the place...this guy with the strange accent...sounds like he could be a biker from Germany...
-
Well, there was a lot of folks talking to you and following your rebuild......
Stainless is from the Bockscar Team, tall fellow, he can look in your eyes without looking up and mostly, when in the Motel 6 parking lot, he is holding a bottle of beer....there was also Doc Freud (Target 550)....an older, very interesting chap who can tell you the greatest story of Don Vesco and bike racer from the 70's, Bret (Kepner) the TV man, he done some picture with his phone.....it was me (Bockscar and Target 550), when Bret was at the place...this guy with the strange accent...sounds like he could be a biker from Germany...
I knew I was wrong :) Thanks PorkPie, It was a busy night. I also talked to Marlo Treit and Bret took pictures that evening for a BangShift feature, we were exhausted but it was fun to talk to you guys! Here is the article from that evening. https://bangshift.com/bangshift1320/bonneville-rebuilding-amazing-motorcycle-bed-truck-sitting-front-motel-6-hotel-room/
.
.
-
Great job Alp, I would have stopped to help but I was over at the Montego Bay changing a clutch and oil pump in their parking lot.
-
Wow! I saw this bike at WOS and it is far better looking in person. Superb craftsmanship and a killer bike.
John
-
I hope I will be the first to get into the 200mph club with a pre 56 vintage class motorcycle.
I believe Max has already done that with his Vincent streamliner.
I looked in the books (SCTA/AMA), couldn't find any record over 200mph in any vintage motorcycle class, I could be wrong.
I think Dave Matson out of Michigan is in the 200mph club on a vintage class Vincent, he did it more than 20 years ago.
-
Dave's records were back in the 80's. I think even before the vintage class was set up. The last records I saw were in 2000CC M-F @ 210.357 and MPS-F at 225.643.
-
Speedweek was a test & tune event for our new bike. The new frame geometry/body design performed well, reached 170mph, got into high speed wobbles few times (due to ruts and soft spots) fortunately saved and proved stable. Fastest average speed within the measured mile was around 150+ The best news is the new partial streamline bike design passed safety and class compliance inspection. We will need better salt/conditions to go faster..
First off I'd like to say what a nice build this is and your approach on breaking out of the box on concept and design is impressive. I really like the design of your front fender breaking over the transition gap between fender and fairing. You stated in an earlier comment (with a pic) that your design was SCTA compliant. I thought the fender requirements say you must stay within 1.75" of the tire diameter while being allowed to go 2.0" inches to the side on flair over front end downtubes on both sides. What the rule does not state is a total height limit of the fender. Is that how you get around the high point of the fender being taller than 1.75"?