Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: edinlr on November 16, 2016, 09:57:40 PM

Title: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: edinlr on November 16, 2016, 09:57:40 PM
As you guys are pondering over rules, classes, changes, etc, please consider adding a twin class for motorcycles.  Virtually every displacement from the 250s on up has twins that may or may not be competitive in the G/F/BG or BF classes.  I know that the car guys say there are too many bike classes already, but this might be another entry point for racers, shops and maybe a factory to bring their bikes out there.  A $50,000 Ducati can't do squat in any of the P, M, or MPS classes against the existing fours, but should do very well against the Honda, Suzuki, Aprilia, Triumph, Kawasaki, and Indian twins.  This could help open up a new market and most will run on the shorter tracks, will usually start, and don't make ruts in the salt.  Please consider this might be a good way to attract new and younger riders to our sport.
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Stainless1 on November 17, 2016, 10:40:46 AM
Before Stan jumps in here, do you think we should have classes for different colors as well?  :roll:

If you want to race competitively, race the bike you think will set a record,  not the bike you have. There are plenty of paved events that support run whatcha brung racing. 

If you want to set a record on the salt, build within the rules instead of asking for a class that fits your vehicle.  :wink:
 :dhorse:  :dhorse:  :dhorse:
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: dw230 on November 17, 2016, 12:46:30 PM
Before you suggest rule changes to the SCTA read the last two paragraphs on page 1 of your rule book. The time frame for 2017 rules changes is long past.

DW
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 17, 2016, 09:01:25 PM
The FIM has classes for singles, twins, and multis.  It gives us guys who are cylinder deficient a place to race competitively.
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: mergatroyd on November 18, 2016, 12:05:03 AM
The way I see it... Ducatis are as competitive within the rules of M as anything else (my learning experience notwithstanding). You might need a blower, or some funny fuel... but even the "event gas" is funny fuel to a pump gas kind of guy.

As I understand it, the P rules don't preclude taking advantage of the "funny" event gas... but those kind of mods are outside my budget.
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: rouse on November 18, 2016, 11:09:17 AM
Whoa; now we are picking on the event gas?

What's wrong with the event gas, you choose the octane to run, and the content of that grade is know by the vendor for testing, so again what's wrong with that?

Rouse
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: mergatroyd on November 18, 2016, 11:43:29 AM
I'm not picking on it, I'm saying it has enhanced capabilities from what a street production motorcycle is expecting. ERC110K is way different from a RON/MON calculated 91 octane purchased at a Shell station.

If a racer in a P class is not taking advantage of that, they are leaving at least some theoretical potential on the table.

For the record, I am against dividing classes by # of cylinders.  :dhorse: I didn't pick my build strategy because it's easier...
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on November 18, 2016, 12:56:54 PM
I would be danged surprised if there are racers running in Production (SCTA/USFRA, bikes) that DON'T take advantage - or at least wish they could afford to do so - of the various fuels that Rick has available at the track fuel station -- fuels that are 100% "legal" for "gas" and "production" classes.

ERC is a valuable resource for us at the Salt, and it/Rick Gold is just another bit of help that's out there if you look for it.

PS:  I know it's not germane, but who's the fuel supplier for BMST?
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: rouse on November 18, 2016, 01:56:16 PM
If your engine is not setup to run the Higher Octane you may even slow it down.

Rick Gold over at the ERC fuel truck is an excellent resource for us racers to use in helping select the proper Octane for your engine build.

I still remember going over to Rick my first time a Bonneville and ask his advise as to what gas to run in my P-PP bike. The first thing he did was ask questions about the engine ie. compression, cam, plugs, and so forth, and then selected the proper Gas for the build.
One of the questions was what gas I tested with, and when I told him, he said he wouldn't run that SH^T in his lawnmower :?  Yes he is a little blunt, but we did run good with his gasoline.

Rouse
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: fordboy628 on November 18, 2016, 02:35:53 PM
If anyone is out there still thinking that fuel formulation is not important . . . . . .

I suggest you read this article in Race Engine Technology, issue 96:
•Focus: FUELS - The fuels used by race engines have arguably one of the greatest influences on their performance. David Cooper explains the factors in their composition.

Sorry, no freebie link.    Magazine is too recent to be free online.

And I just want to add that if you have carb(s) using pump gas with ethanol added, DO NOT let your ride sit with the ethanol fuel in the carb(s).    You will be very unhappy.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Stainless1 on November 18, 2016, 03:17:12 PM
Well if you are not running event gas at Bonneville in production or any gas class you are not setting a record, no matter how fast you are going.  You only have to use event gas if you plan the challenge a record, otherwise buy $3 gas at the station and go as fast as you can.
BMST had the ERC truck there for fuel.
Rick advised us to use MUL-B in the 1 liter NA 13.5:1 compression motor... Set 200 MPH Club records in both the bike and car.... we generally follow his advice.

But back to the actual subject of this thread....
 :dhorse:   yep that one
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: wobblywalrus on November 18, 2016, 08:32:16 PM
Hundreds of cylinder pressure tables and graffs have been looked at these last weeks during my virtual builds.  The tuning is done for Bonneville density altitude and checked for much lower Beaverton, Oregon DA.  The latter is done so I make sure the engine will not blow up on the dyno.  The long cams, high rpm, and thin air density at B-ville reduce the demands for octane at that location.  The highest pressures are at low altitude on the dyno near torque peak at full throttle.

We use "clear premium" here in Oregon as low budget race fuel if we cannot afford race gas.  This is unleaded non-ethanol premium.  Typically the summer and winter blends are the same.  You might have that type of gas where you are.  Just run the fuel class and there will be no problem.

The gasohol pump blends are very inconsistent.  Modern engines can do OK on them but older ones often have trouble.  Usually the engine has to be detuned a bit to work with fuels of such variable quality.  We tuned desert racers to run on regular octane Mexican PEMEX in the old days.  They would'a been a lot faster when tuned for race gas, for sure.   
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: NathanStewart on November 28, 2016, 03:38:40 PM
No offense but there are too many motorcycle classes already.  In fact, there are too many motorcycle competitors as it is.  As a car competitor, I'm propose that the SCTA ban motorcycles all together.  I suggest that you start your own motorcycle-only sanctioning body (SSS may like LRDCMTA aka land racing dot com motorcycle timing association) and make classes for all the different types of motor configurations. 

Or just compete in the classes that we already have.
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: ronnieroadster on November 28, 2016, 04:17:37 PM
No offense but there are too many motorcycle classes already.  In fact, there are too many motorcycle competitors as it is.  As a car competitor, I'm propose that the SCTA ban motorcycles all together.  I suggest that you start your own motorcycle-only sanctioning body (SSS may like LRDCMTA aka land racing dot com motorcycle timing association) and make classes for all the different types of motor configurations. 

Or just compete in the classes that we already have.


 That's an excellent idea ban them all.  Those of us who have had the lovely experience of a motorcycle competitor cutting the line would love to see bike only events. Many times at runway type events I have personally experienced this a bike racer cutting the line :-o I know their more important than us car guys but gee wiz wait your turn!
 
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Stan Back on November 28, 2016, 04:42:06 PM
I like the bikes.  (I know, this doesn't sound like me.)

More variety.  And they're usually more ready to run and don't slow down a meet.
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on November 28, 2016, 05:46:42 PM
Stan, the holidays are over -- lay off the sauce already!! :evil:
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Stan Back on November 28, 2016, 06:49:12 PM
Got the big seven-five comin' up -- must be mellowing.
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: ronnieroadster on November 28, 2016, 08:09:17 PM
Got the big seven-five comin' up -- must be mellowing.





  I have to agree  :cheers:
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Chris V on November 28, 2016, 08:21:42 PM
We do have the motorcycle only event at BMST look for the forum pages right here on Landracing
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: saltwheels262 on November 28, 2016, 08:56:12 PM
a motorcycle competitor cutting

Motorcycles and cars at Loring do cut the lines. As far as I know those competitors are working the event. If there is an issue with them ~~~  then it should be brought to the attention of Tim, Joe, Jesse or any of the officials.

I believe the same goes at Wilmington. Bring it up with the those running the show.

Franey
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Stainless1 on November 28, 2016, 09:51:30 PM
Well, as a bike guy and a car guy.... same motors run in both....  :-o I THINK I already expressed my opinion, but here we go AGAIN... There is already a plethora  of motorcycle classes, God only knows why anyone would think there should be more.... I guess deluded minds think racing is what you do with what you got if you want to set a Land Speed Record... NOT TRUE... if you want to compete you find a class you want to challenge and build something to race in it to set the record. 
Or you just find some class that has no record... there are probably 500 of them, and put a bike on the track that meets that class and go 19 MPH and set a record.   Although I think you have to go about 15 to set the slowest record in the book  :-o  I must defer to my friend Scott to tell us the actual number since he spent almost 10 minutes  on the track trying to keep his bike upright to do that :roll:
So quit your whining, build something competitive, set a record, maybe get in the 200 MPH Club and bask in the glory of being the fastest person to set a record in your class since 1949.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Nortonist 592 on November 30, 2016, 02:14:04 AM
and maybe a factory to bring their bikes out there. 

Isn't that sort of defeating your thought on another class?   If your $50,000 Ducati can't compete against what's out there now how do you expect to compete against a factory effort?   LSR sometimes requires a bit more than store bought HP.
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: mergatroyd on November 30, 2016, 09:37:33 AM
Besides, the only $50,000 Ducati is either a 4 cylinder or horribly mis-priced (not counting collector pieces).  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: dw230 on December 13, 2016, 06:18:19 PM
Looks like a Christmas miracle has happened.

The 2017 SCTA elected board took an opportunity to review the rules changes and decided to research the M frame proposal. The board has made the decision to add the M frame classes to the menu of available classes for El Mirage competition. So now all motorcycle classes available at Bonneville are now open for records at El Mirage beginning in the 2017 season. One Caveat - M frame competitors cannot compete for the 2017 Motorcycle Championship. Your records will be good for lineup position.

Good luck,
DW
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Dynoroom on December 13, 2016, 06:40:16 PM
Looks like a Christmas miracle has happened.

The 2017 SCTA elected board took an opportunity to review the rules changes and decided to research the M frame proposal. The board has made the decision to add the M frame classes to the menu of available classes for El Mirage competition. So now all motorcycle classes available at Bonneville are now open for records at El Mirage beginning in the 2017 season. One Caveat - M frame competitors cannot compete for the 2017 Motorcycle Championship. Your records will be good for lineup position.

Good luck,
DW

Perfect....... crock!  SMH   :roll:
Title: Re: Motorcycle suggestion - AGAIN
Post by: Stainless1 on December 13, 2016, 10:15:14 PM
Mike, you sound disappointed that the bike guys will get a boatload of sandbagging opportunities...