Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => 2017 and before: SW & WF => SpeedWeek 2016 => Topic started by: dw230 on November 04, 2016, 02:30:10 PM
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I was sent this youtube video by Roxanne Tea this morning
https://youtu.be/Au_I_c1JNO8
DW
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Nice video but I noticed that Brenda Bowen conveniently forgot to mention that the thin crust used to be a thick crust.
Bill
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Lame.
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The video or me?
Bill
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The video or me?
Bill
The video, of course. There is very little acceptance of BLM's responsibility in the present salt crust depletion.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I would love to see them try to dig like that with a post hose digger in 74 when I first went.
Ron
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Hmm I guess they miss placed all the video of peoples negative comments and packing up early due to conditions.
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Dan thanks for sharing the video. Nice video of the cars but....
(http://1fatgmc.com/car/misc-pics-1/2016-salt-1.jpg)
... I only see about 1/2 to 3/4 inch of salt at that location. Sad, sad, sad,
Sumner
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I also noticed the statement that all of the mining extraction is from south of the highway. Willful misrepresentation at best. :x
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I heard that bit (about south of the highway) but i think I did hear the lady add that the feedstock (brine) comes from both sides -- but she didn't mention it 'til after the south side comment.
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At worst, more WILLFUL OBFUSCATION . . . . . . .
At best, more BB BS . . . . . .
Propaganda, such as this is, paints the most "optimisty" evaluation of supposed "complicated conditions", (pablum for the woefully uninformed), when in fact, the conditions are not complicated at all.
When you remove something, less is left. A minus B, equals less of A.
Saaay, we're taking stuff from you, to make it better for you . . . . . . . Oh, and you get to subsidize the private profits too!!
How . . . . PERFECT . . . . is this? "Trickle down" economics in action . . . . . . . on two fronts . . . . . . .
:cry:
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Funny many see the heaps of salt south of 80 and that leaving in box cars...akin to taxation ..raising the rates (flows) actually does more good ....this extraction is vital to many industries and processes...see our studies ...we are doing our due diligence to ensure we preserving environment very well ...see the crust is still there ...and we actually redepositing millions a year
you just need to trust us with your salt ...we know how to best use it
and redistribute it...
history show us ..if its getting tougher to extract ..... from one area...it will be taken from another
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Your tax dollars at work.
I do see an upside to this video - by using it as a promotional tool for the department, it now becomes a tacit, searchable and archival acknowledgement on the part of the BLM that Land Speed Racing on the Bonneville Salt Flats is an activity that they both historically and publically support.
But knowing how videos are put together, what I'd like to see is what was left on the cutting room floor.
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Your tax dollars at work.
I do see an upside to this video - by using it as a promotional tool for the department, it now becomes a tacit, searchable and archival acknowledgement on the part of the BLM that Land Speed Racing on the Bonneville Salt Flats is an activity that they both historically and publically support.
But knowing how videos are put together, what I'd like to see is what was left on the cutting room floor.
...the truth :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Chris said: "...what was left on the cutting room floor." Or, more literally -- "What was tossed in the digital wastebasket." :roll:
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Did anybody expect any more than this?? I sure didn't!!
Brenda Bowen is at the front end of a three year study that is financed by the mining that has removed the salt. She has made enough noise there to satisfy the U of U the pays her, the mining company that pays the U of U, the BLM that won't be held accountable for anything, the Government that would prefer the problem didn't exist but will also make a couple of useless noises when cornered & Joe Public who is grossly uninformed on the real situation!!!!!
We are drowning in a politically correct society & this woman has gills, maybe she should run for President.
There's still another two years of this BS coming down the pipe before we arrive back at the same empty pond in 2018, The Bonneville Salt Flats.
Sid. :x
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Last years episode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW8qxIowxiI
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Evidently the last few years of rain, (like we haven't had any in the last 10000 years) is the total cause of our lack of salt. Give me a break. Love to ask her where the piles of salt on the other side came from.
Ron
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Did anybody expect any more than this??
Actually, I didn't think we'd see a promo piece masquerading as a PSA.
But it does give me hope.
If they're at the point of putting together a 'damage control" video, they're aware that they're being scrutinized on this.
The game is afoot.
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Ah, yes... Brenda Bowen, the smirking geologist, trying to tell us that when it rains the salt disappears. Gimme a break. Is this the state of science these days? It must be a lot easier to get a Ph.D. these days than when I was in school. Yep, as has been said before-- follow the money. :x
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil, I've never seen Bonneville but you're right. Sometimes too much education is a hindrance. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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FWIW
Brenda was talking about the salt crust. I have to agree with her about the water. I had to get rid of some water at Speedweek and the USFRA meet. if I left the hose in one spot for over 20 or 30 seconds it ate through the crust and into the mud. It sure looked like it dissolved the salt to me. So I feel she is correct on that account about the crust.
If the mud from the hills came down and covered over the good crust a couple of years ago, the question I have is how long does it take for the crust to re establish itself to at least 3 or 4 inches?
How do we divert the mud from going on the race course in future years?
Next question I have is anyone from the SCTA or USFRA on the salt during the coring operation when Brenda and the coring company are taking samples to at least take pictures of the core samples they are extracting?
IMO We need to work together if we want to accomplish anything, as pointing fingers, and derogatory comments are not going to work. However it does work to p_ss people off that we need to help us. I am sure they read everything posted on this topic.
Tom G.
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Tom - I wish I could share you optimism about the salt merely "hiding" under the mud, but I can't. Here's why:
1. This has only ever been presented as an hypothesis with no supporting evidence (even circumstantial) as far as I can tell. And as you've pointed out, there is no confirmation from BLM/Intrepid or anybody else that core sampling is being carried out to test this hypothesis. If that's what they are doing then surely there is no reason for them not to share this with the racing community. If they were to confirm it, that would at least give an indication of where they are headed in terms of their studies and investigations. Without it, they stand accused (fairly or unfairly) of using it as delaying tactic to support the status quo.
2. There is an already viable alternative cause supported by hard, uncontested evidence (million of tons of salt removed by mining over a long period) and its affect noted (your experience included) to show that the remaining salt is only 1 - 2 inches thick. This may not be enough to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt but it is currently much more likely than any other theory not supported by any evidence.
3. Most pertinent of all reason imo is the salt lay down project. If a hard nosed business organisation like Intrepid (or their predecessors) really believed that the salt was merely hiding under or diluted in the mud, does anybody think they would continue spending money to replace even part of the salt they've removed over the years for no reason? To say it clearly - if the missing salt is proven to be diluted in the mud or hidden by it, then mining is not the cause of salt depletion and Intrepid and anybody else can carry on mining without it having a major impact. But that has to be proven. Until then it's just another unsupported hypothesis.
Until/unless proven otherwise, imo all the evidence still supports mining to be the most likely cause of salt depletion. To quote Sherlock Holmes (or rather Conan Doyle on his behalf) - when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Robin
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Merely keeping quiet and accepting whatever BS BLM doles out is like Oliver Twist holding out his bowl and piteously pleading "Please, sir, can I have some more?"
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil,
I showed the video to some friends who know little about land speed racing and have heard of Bonneville only by reputation. I asked them what message they thought the BLM were delivering and what problem - if any - they were trying to address. They all said more or less the same thing. Sounds like climate change is affecting Bonneville really badly but good that the authorities are working so closely with the racers to minimise the effect to help them keep racing. Not one mentioned mining as a possible cause. Without prior knowledge and given that it was mentioned as happening only "on the other side of I-80" not a huge surprise. Job done as far as the BLM is concerned if that's what non racers think. I'm with those who reckon that this is just BLM propaganda in response to criticism and that those who want to race at Bonneville in the future need to keep the pressure up on the BLM. I had hoped to make it out there one day as more than a spectator but given the uncertainty and the cost of getting to anywhere with a decent track from the UK, then not's not likely to happen. There are other places. Doesn't help you guys sadly.
Robin
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Tom - I wish I could share you optimism about the salt merely "hiding" under the mud, but I can't. Here's why:
1. This has only ever been presented as an hypothesis with no supporting evidence (even circumstantial) as far as I can tell. And as you've pointed out, there is no confirmation from BLM/Intrepid or anybody else that core sampling is being carried out to test this hypothesis. If that's what they are doing then surely there is no reason for them not to share this with the racing community. If they were to confirm it, that would at least give an indication of where they are headed in terms of their studies and investigations. Without it, they stand accused (fairly or unfairly) of using it as delaying tactic to support the status quo.
2. There is an already viable alternative cause supported by hard, uncontested evidence (million of tons of salt removed by mining over a long period) and its affect noted (your experience included) to show that the remaining salt is only 1 - 2 inches thick. This may not be enough to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt but it is currently much more likely than any other theory not supported by any evidence.
3. Most pertinent of all reason imo is the salt lay down project. If a hard nosed business organisation like Intrepid (or their predecessors) really believed that the salt was merely hiding under or diluted in the mud, does anybody think they would continue spending money to replace even part of the salt they've removed over the years for no reason? To say it clearly - if the missing salt is proven to be diluted in the mud or hidden by it, then mining is not the cause of salt depletion and Intrepid and anybody else can carry on mining without it having a major impact. But that has to be proven. Until then it's just another unsupported hypothesis.
Until/unless proven otherwise, imo all the evidence still supports mining to be the most likely cause of salt depletion. To quote Sherlock Holmes (or rather Conan Doyle on his behalf) - when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Robin
Neil,
I showed the video to some friends who know little about land speed racing and have heard of Bonneville only by reputation. I asked them what message they thought the BLM were delivering and what problem - if any - they were trying to address. They all said more or less the same thing. Sounds like climate change is affecting Bonneville really badly but good that the authorities are working so closely with the racers to minimise the effect to help them keep racing. Not one mentioned mining as a possible cause. Without prior knowledge and given that it was mentioned as happening only "on the other side of I-80" not a huge surprise. Job done as far as the BLM is concerned if that's what non racers think. I'm with those who reckon that this is just BLM propaganda in response to criticism and that those who want to race at Bonneville in the future need to keep the pressure up on the BLM. I had hoped to make it out there one day as more than a spectator but given the uncertainty and the cost of getting to anywhere with a decent track from the UK, then not's not likely to happen. There are other places. Doesn't help you guys sadly.
Robin
Robin,
Well said on both quotes. I am of a like mind on this issue. So brother, toss back a pint of Wychwood Hobgoblin for me if you are so inclined, and maybe add a pinch of salt . . . . . .
:cheers:
Mark
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The whole "mud flow covered the salt crust" statement has been taken as fact & it is totally INCORECT! Get your facts right before you throw your theories out. This whole situation is drowning in misinformation & untruths up to it's fu^^ing eyeballs!
The mud/dirt from the excessive rain runoff NEVER settled on the salt crust, it settled UNDER the crust! The crust that now varies from only about 1 inch at best down to just a skim of color, is now predominantly made up of the depleted tailings product being pumped back on to the flats & that product is now missing most of the binder, POTASH. A recent statement from Intrepid stated that only a small amount of their product was being harvested from the north side of the freeway & that's because it is about depleted.
Way back when Reily Investments started the pumping program I was suspicious why they would be so willing to spend millions of dollars on that but it only took a couple of years to see the truth. Initially the quantity of salt crust came up but then the quality went down. Since then both the quality & quantity have gone down to where we are today. In the near future my guess is their profit margin will go away & pumping will stop.
There is a crystalline solid area in the center of the flats where that mud/dirt layer was trapped for a time before it bled off into the surrounding brine dirt. I saw it when I tested last year & it's not there now. The product of that live crystalline section is the crust & the loss rate is far beyond the natural growth rate. I don't know how much area that covers but it's not very big. I only found it in two of my test holes last year about two miles apart.
Brenda Bowen stated that the loss was from various runoff & evaporation due to excessive wet weather. OK.... there was excessive wet weather as there has been for thousands of years before, BUT!.... salt DOES NOT evaporate, only the water evaporates leaving the salt behind. Even a dumb-a$$ like me know's that.
Her next statement was "various runoff's". There IS NO natural runoff, the canals & pumps are the only way to get that much product out of there & it called slurry mining.
Where is the logic in expecting to build up the quantity of the salt crust by pumping from the tailing ponds back into the flats when the drainage canals are still open back to the plant & the pumps are still pumping out from the water table? Again....This Is Slurry Mining & eventually there will be no product or profit in it so it will stop & no one will be held accountable for the loss of The Bonneville Salt Flats as a usable venue.
Here's a link to the video's I shot last year that shows the crystalline base. I didn't know exactly what that was then until I found it again this year & washed it off so I could really see it & it's actually a transparent green color that water doesn't penetrate. The break down of what is in this clip is 1/4" of salt crust, 1/4" of dirt/mud, 2" of the crystalline base then brine mud beyond 3ft, that was the length of my home made sample tool. As you can see the ground water leached into the hole in just a few minutes. Again, I only found the crystalline base at the 5 & 7 mile distance measured from lands end in a straight line toward floating mountain. Everywhere else was thin salt crust on the brine dirt.
My GoPro took a dump this year so I had no video to share.
Sid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe8de-Zhb6Q
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.... Brenda Bowen stated that the loss was from various runoff & evaporation due to excessive wet weather. OK.... there was excessive wet weather as there has been for thousands of years before, BUT!.... salt DOES NOT evaporate, only the water evaporates leaving the salt behind. Even a dumb-a$$ like me know's that.
Her next statement was "various runoff's". There IS NO natural runoff, the canals & pumps are the only way to get that much product out of there & it called slurry mining.
Where is the logic in expecting to build up the quantity of the salt crust by pumping from the tailing ponds back into the flats when the drainage canals are still open back to the plant & the pumps are still pumping out from the water table? Again....This Is Slurry Mining & eventually there will be no product or profit in it so it will stop & no one will be held accountable for the loss of The Bonneville Salt Flats as a usable venue...
:cheers: :cheers: The truth folks :cry: :cry: :cry: all the rest of what they are telling us is "smoke and mirrors".
How can she say the salt is gone because of the rains??? That could only be true if this was a valley that ran somewhere. It isn't, it is a basin with no outlet.
Sid is right...the rains disolve salt... the sun shines.... the water evaporates... the salt is redeposited right back on the salt flats.
This is exactly what has been going on forever there. The salt got thicker over time as water disolved salt in the nearby mountains or from historic (many, many year old) geological deposits and carried it to the basin we are now racing in. The water that carried it there evaporated leaving the salt behind. No water now from rain or snow melt can carry the salt away as there is no outlet from the basin other than the potash plant on the other side of the interstate,
Sumner
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Sid, not sure who you were having a go at about the whole “salt under the mud” issue but if it was me then we have our wires crossed in a major way. I was trying to explain why I thought those considering this as an alternate cause were wrong and why the effects of mining (supported by the evidence you and others have provided) is the only sensible conclusion. There are many things in the universe that I’m too dumb to understand but one of the basic laws of physics isn’t one of therm. As others have said, start with a defined amount of anything, carry on removing it bit by bit and eventually you’ll end up with nothing. How hard can that be to grasp? How many studies do you need to confirm that? So if people step back for a minute and take an unemotional look at the situation, you don’t have to be Stephen Hawking - or even one of the academics drafted in to carry out yet another study – to grasp the basics facts. After thousands of years of doing its stuff, Mother Nature evaporated a huge brine lake creating the salt flats. Unless you fancy digging a channel to the sea to flood an equally huge area of Utah with more salt water and then waiting around for a few million years more, then what was created first time around is definable in terms of area and mass. If you then allow anybody to remove salt every year over a long period of time without replacing at least the same amount that resource will eventually be depleted.
Responsibility for the consequences clearly rests with those who over the years have either approved or encouraged depletion of a defined resource – whether they understood the eventual consequences or not, or indeed whether there are other factors compounding the problem. And that in my view is the nub of the problem in terms of taking any action. Few people caught with their pants down are going to own up to wrong decisions by them or their predecessors unless they can help it – hence the BLM propaganda film. I reckon that if you challenged any of those decision makers past or present by saying, guess what, allowing people to remove more than they’ve replaced has led to the situation we have today, inwardly they’d be thinking – oh yeah, no sh*t Sherlock. Outwardly they’d be arguing every point they can to make sure they’re not the one left without a chair when the music stops. This of course is why any ambiguity or doubt, however marginal, is seized on to justify yet another study, fact finding mission or long term detailed analysis. Go back to the dust bowl era to see what happens when continuing to do the same old thing suddenly tips the environment over the edge. Extraction without like for like replacement must eventually lead to depletion of a defined resource – if it hasn’t done so already. Anybody who says otherwise must be wrong and you don’t need a study to confirm it. Just my opinion but sad times.
Robin
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No, not you Mate. Just the generic incorrect statements that are made by people that only know or want to hear part of the story & that does include a lot of racers. I believe it is going to take a whole bunch of public outcry to really get this thing rolling here but that won't happen with all the lies & or incorrect information being spread around. This needs Joe Public's backing to make enough noise but they aren't getting the right info.
Sid.
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https://youtu.be/S-Z6Fhg2B_o (https://youtu.be/S-Z6Fhg2B_o)
And here is the problem. This video is from August 13th, 2015 and there have only been 10,744 views.
The message is just not reaching the masses . . . . . . . They just whiz by on I80, and don't give a . . . . . . . . . . well, another thought.
:cry:
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Not much truth in that video :-( :cry:
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FB I think that low number of views could be because of the routing through links not being accurately counted.
Maybe adding a few key words to the video would draw additional hits. Ie. sex, nudity, scandal, boobies. I'm not kidding, Key words help draw extra views from folks that would have never play the video.
Whom ever it was that posted the video on youtube, should go back and add key words.
Rouse
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The smirking geologist strikes again! Follow the money.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ